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'Corporatism' is the problem - in Europe

by Jerome a Paris Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 07:03:48 AM EST

The bad news is that a system delivering neither dynamism nor high employment is failing.

Following the steps of recent Nobel prize winner Edmund Phelbs, Martin Wolf sees in the above graph an indictment of the 'corporatist' economies of Europe.

“The shortcoming of the system was the continent’s corporatist economic system (or systems), a system constructed of big unions, big employer confederations and big banks, all mediated by a big public sector – a system that had been built up starting in the 1920s on the belief that it would be better than capitalism.”

(...)

Prof Phelps suggests that the durability of continental corporatism derives from culturally embedded hostility to the rewards of business life.

That's the jist of it, isn't it: "the rewards of business life". From the above graph, it appears that most of Europe had a big catch up period until the 70s, and has been more or less stable, in comparison to the US, since then. That suggests, indeed, stable cultural choices on both sides of the Atlantic, or simply different ways of measuring prosperity.

Of course, people will point out to the apparent decline of European countries in the last 15 years. But I'll stick to apparent for now, for two simple reasons:

  • the share of income captured by the very rich has brutally changed in that period in the US:

    Take those people out, and the numbers for the other 99.9% of population are essentially flat between Europe and the USA. So the European version of 'corporatism' prevents the very rich from getting a lot richer - and that's all.

  • the US economy has been propped up by a huge financial bubble / debt splurge, whose sustainability is, to say the least, untested. We're at the very top of the markets right now - a more relevant comparison will be after the whole cycle ends, i.e. when we see where the trough is on either side of the Atlantic. Until then, I'd say that any claims should be taken with a grain of salt.


Display:
Of course we're hearing the same garbage from FT, this time from no less than Martin Wolf who, if my memory of days when I would bother reading FT in the bathroom at work are still accurate, can sometimes still be reasonable.

I'd be careful to throw the baby out with the dirty bathwater which is his article, though. Unemployment is still too high, and the job market is still too static for those who feel some ambition and wish to either earn a little more or improve themselves via personal career development.

Royal's comments on 35-hour week indicate she "gets" it. But if we don't actually start fixing it, the neo-lib consensus becomes the only solution anyone knows about.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 07:42:02 AM EST

Unemployment is still too high, and the job market is still too static for those who feel some ambition and wish to either earn a little more or improve themselves via personal career development.

I'm surprised to hear this from you, of all people.

See this about what unemployment measures, and my big article on the French labor market from last year, both ofwhich contradict what you say, at least when compared to other countries.

(with the usual disclaimer: this is not to deny that there are problems, but to say that they are not substantially worse than in the supposed 'model' countries we're told to emulate)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 07:55:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't disagree at all with you of course, but I do note the results of the last election, and I pull my conclusions from there.

Fortunately, I think Royal has as well...

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:04:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You need to be more explicit in the conclusions you are reaching, and those you think (i) the population and (ii) Royal reached, because I'm really not sure what you mean.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:14:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, I'm thinking about her recent pronouncements on the 35-hour law, notably

"L'application uniforme et technocratique des 35 heures a créé des difficultés dans certaines entreprises et a entraîné une dégradation des conditions de travail pour certains salariés", a-t-elle déploré, admettant que les 35 heures ont "globalement" été "un progrès social" et sont "un mouvement de la société qui va dans le bon sens".

This follows earlier pronouncements:

Début juin, Ségolène Royal avait déjà dressé un bilan "mitigé" des 35 heures en raison d'une "flexibilité" accrue pour certains salariés. Mi-octobre, elle avait aussi estimé que "pour une minorité de salariés" elles ont été "une régression sociale" qu'il "faudra corriger".

She's talking about a large subsection of working class folks (minority overall, but a big part of the historical PS base, esp. in the north), who really got screwed by Aubry's law and who turned on the PS with a vengeance in 2002.

Paris and the social-democrats won't win elections for the PS alone.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:28:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
so you meant the criticism from the left of the 35-hour week. Understood.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:46:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Heh.

Is there any other legitimate criticism?

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 11:45:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's good that the lies get exposed. But in all this talk about jobs, do you ever get this image of people chanting "longer chains, bigger cages"? Or I suppose "more cages" would be appropriate.

Your "reworked GDP per capita excluding gazillionaires" graph is a gem though.

by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:16:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What comments would you be responding to?

If anything, I'd say that your comments are elitist. In the current rigged system, it's impossible for the entire economy to grow and for everyone to advance.

(And just to pre-empt the anti-humans, economic growth hasn't meant increased resource consumption for a long time now. Although it still means increased energy use.)

So we have an economic situation which is pretty close to a zero-sum game. And you're crying your crocodile tears for people "who feel some ambition and wish to earn a little more or improve themselves via personal career development".

It sounds an awful lot like you approve of elitism with all its associated elbow-jabbing, backstabbing and smashing in of others' faces with one's jackboot heel. I'm not convinced that's what you meant, but it is what it sounds like.

Because if you weren't an elitist, you'd be thinking of how to unrig the system and change its fundamentals, not how to make sure that one person can step on others' faces.

by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 07:55:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm confused. I was commenting on Wolf in FT, and I think very poorly of that rag.

It's impossible that all would make the same regardless of ambition, skill or pure hard work. But if we're serious, as socialists (as opposed to social democrats, about the principle-agent problem, we'd do well to leave in place incentives.

They don't need to be monetary, they can take the form of additional leisure (my preference), which is all very good as well, and another stat that Jerome would rightfully point out but which goes over the heads of the folks at FT, whose chief constituency are the very same capitalists who profit from lack of proper leisure.

But all the same, incentives there must be, and no less than the socialist rank and file has already spoken on the subject, throwing out Martine Aubry from about the safest PS seats in all the land, all because of how she screwed those incentives up for the working-class rank and file (and to the benefit of the professional classes who had become the PS' chief constituency...)

Details matter on this, we've screwed up the priniciple-agent problem for decades. The Honecker model didn't work all that well.

And pointing this out doesn't make me a capitalist running dog.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:19:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If we're serious as sane people, which you increasingly don't appear to be, then we'll drop ideological claptrap like "incentives" and appreciate that INCENTIVES ARE DESTRUCTIVE OF MOTIVATION.

Sheesh, and I promised to Jerome just a short while ago that I'd tone it down.

Redstar, you don't know jack about socialism and you don't know jack about effective management. So can it. Maybe one day you'll learn to differentiate socialism from "this person who calls themselves a socialist says blah blah" but that day is not today.

by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:55:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What is socialism?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:57:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Socialism is an economic, political and social system founded on justice. Where justice is defined by an expansive system of universal human rights. A system in violent opposition to market "rights".
by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 09:05:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For definiteness, is the Universal Declaration of Human Rights an adequate representation of "an expansive system of universal human rights", or are you thinking of something more advanced?

I interpret the word "socialism" as partly implying some subordination of the individual to society, if only to enforce the protection of human rights. So, is individualism incompatible with the "expansive system of human rights"?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 09:21:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
With a few notable exceptions, the UDHR can serve as an expansive system of universal human rights. The most notable exception is that there is no "freedom of religion" and there never can be since it is non-universalizable. And take the rest of Article 18.

Well, there cannot be any "freedom of thought" that contradicts human rights. You are also not, generally-speaking, permitted by human rights to think in ways that contradict human rights; Article 30 prohibits you. Even the freedom of conscience must be struck out since it refers to the meta-structure above universal human rights.

These amendments to the UDHR correspond to mistakes which Rawls made in his seminal A Theory of Justice.

As for socialism, it doesn't necessarily imply subordination of individuals to society. Socialism logically includes communism, and communism's two branches include anarchism.

So human rights are compatible with human freedom, maybe even with 'individual' human freedom. Whatever that could be since you can't separate the collective from the individual. But 'individualism' is another matter since human rights isn't compatible with the atomization of human beings into powerless individuals.

by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 11:42:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fair enough, though I'll point out just for the sake of argument that I don't know why you think that individualism implies "atomization of human beings into powerless individuals". Surely advocates of individualism argue that it empowers them.

And, just for reference, from the UDHR:

Article 18.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

...

Article 30.
Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.




"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 25th, 2007 at 05:33:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
http://positivesharing.com/2006/12/why-motivation-by-pizza-doesnt-work

Not only do incentives NOT work, but they are also morally corrosive and psychologically destructive.

Seriously though, what is the appropriate attitude to take to someone who believes something about on a par with the neo-con belief that more violence is the solution to Iraq? This is not mere ignorance we are talking about, it is evil.

You see Redstar, even if you were ignorant of the topic, it would in no way absolve you. Because absent any evidence either for or against your thesis, you CHOSE to believe in it. And chose to believe in it because you WANTED to believe in it. You wanted to believe that human beings are little automatons that can be controlled. And that attitude is evil and repulsive.

And I have a very, VERY thin skin for evil.

by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 09:01:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How about a diary?

EVIL  --  WHY IT SUCKS AND EVERYONE WHO IS EVIL SHOULD DIE A HORRIBLE DEATH COZ THEY ARE EVIL!  AND I KNOW WHO THE EVIL ONES ARE COZ I AM RICHARDK AND I SMELL EVIL, I SNIFF IT OUT IN EVERY LAST...ER...EVIL PLACE IT CRAWLS!

By richardk.

Oh, and a group hug with some lovely humans.

Or are they....EVIL?

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 11:58:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I see.

So reading an employee motivation manual will show me the way toward the light.

Rah rah, dammit, all it takes is to get your employees to want to do their jobs. No matter the job. Cleaning manure from the stalls at the Brantford Dairy Collective? "I'll do it because I want to do it!"

I'd be real curious, camarade, how exactly your worker's paradise would get folks to all such necessary tasks with the zeal of a true believer that your business motivational link would, in one of this earth's greatest truisms, have us believe is the key to solving the age-old principle-agent problem that one does not simply wave away with ones hand because the word socialism is scrawled on its palm.

So, vanguard of the revolution and seer of evil, how exactly do you get rubbish haulers and street cleaners, not to mention butchers, accountants or day-care workers to "really want to write that report?" And how is wanting to write that report relevant in the first place?

Fact is, I suspect I know exactly how your schema works in the real world. Bourgeois student types (a certain film coming to mind) such as yourself get to pursue those endeavors characterized by their ability to be adapted to such altruistic motivational tactics, while the drudge work is left to others.

But this of course does not stop you from feeling solidarity with these other folks. 'Course, working class folks in your immediate vicinity look at you and at best roll their eyes. Eventually, you "tire" of them and their derision, they just don't understand how you teaching their kids while they haul the crap is indeed the worker's paradise toward which we should all strive. Eventually, you are prompted to glorify working class heroes , asusming you having given up idealization of those who actually have to work for a living, from much further afield, say, the PRC of Mao (for the soixante-huitards) or whatever idealized new group has taken it's place in today's far more fragmented ideological environment.

Keep re-inventing the wheel though. Eventually, you may come up with something round.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 03:25:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So, vanguard of the revolution and seer of evil, how exactly do you get rubbish haulers and street cleaners, not to mention butchers, accountants or day-care workers to "really want to write that report?" And how is wanting to write that report relevant in the first place?

And how is the report relevant in the first place?

I have been a rubbish hauler (enjoyed it, but the bins were so heavy--the old metal ones.  I wouldnae mind doing it now that they're lighter, but round our way it's been mechanised, a huge lorry arrives...); I wouldn't mind being a street cleaner...socially useful, out in the fresh air, walking around--but the pay isn't enough...does that count as a reward?  I don't think so.  I have a friend who was a butcher.  Not everyone's cup o' char, but unless one is a vegetarian...and I presume butchers aren't, then there are those who care for the animals--etc..& etc...

I think we could probably get all the heavy-lifting social jobs done if we helped out one day a week or yearly equivalent (2 months a year?)  I wouldnae mind doing pretty much any job as long as it wasn't "a job"--richardk's cages and chains come to mind.  The trouble is...the money...tied to the industrial machine we aren't--and can't be, or find it so hard to be...light...

So, ahem.  I don't think it is correct to classify some jobs as "simply undoable unless you offer people a carrot"...although I suppose being a part of the community etc...are also carrots...

(Back to those reports.  Who needs 'em and for what?)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 04:18:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Carrots are everywhere. Like I said, you have the principle-agent problem regardless of whether you are in a real socialist economic system, a bourgeois one, or in anglo-american capitalism.

If you read the link he provides, you'll see it's pretty much the standard business tripe about the best motivation coming from within, ie, the carrot doesn't need to be provided because, well, because everyone will end up doing everything because, well, they want to.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that, when pushed to its logical conclusions, this "external carrot-less" world reduces to one where we have altogether too many ballet dancers and not enough daycare workers, too many forestry specialists and not enough rubbish haulers.

For rubbish hauling may get you in the great outdoors and let you exert yourself (all of these important for me as well) but end of day, these too are "carrots".

And, carrot for equal carrot, there are other, less taxing in an olfactory sense, occupations which deliver similar intrinsic rewards. If leisure, status material rewards and, yes, prospect of self-betterment are not offered as inducements to work well in jobs which are not attractive relative to other occupations, how do you hope to allocate labor properly such that all of society's necessary tasks are fulfilled?

That's all I'm saying.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 05:03:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's all I'm saying.

Yeah.  I'm just pondering it.  I'm not sure I agree.  You can have a bunch of ballerinas for a while, okay, and we can all go to the ballet, but someone has to build the ballet hall and I reckon there'll be a lot who'd rather build, plumb, electrify, sound proof etc. a ballet hall before they'd put on a tutu.

Reminds me of what a friend said years ago, back when England had the good ol' dole.  It was taken away (well, suddenly you had to prove you were looking for a job...bang went a thousand rock bands...)...because "people would just sit around doing nothing all day."

I suppose people say the same about the living wage, or whatever it's called when everyone gets enough to live on just for waking up in the morning.  Here's what my friend said.

"Yeah, sure, we sat around and played cards for a few months.  But then we got bored and looked for other things to do."

They had/have the same policy at Summerhill (if I'm remembering the school and its policy correctly), where kids aren't forced to do lessons.  They have to work out a weekly routine.  There's always the kid that wants to play pool or sit under a tree, so they let him or her.  After a week or two said kid trudges into the office and asks what "interesting" things they can do--coz they're bored hairless--and...lo...their education commenceth.

I think the key is...hmmm...working in cycles rather than for decades...where one can dedicate time and effort to a project (I don't mean in some naff how-to-make-your-staff-happy-without-paying-them-more-money business empowerment nonsense)...I mean I, for one, wouldn't have a problem cleaning out those mucky sewers, as long as I didn't have to do it all day, every day, for the next twenty years, and I assume, given freedom to do other things as well (including, of course, ballet), communities would naturally educate their children into this kind of attitude, sorta like getting your kids to help out at home...yeah, they'd rather play video games but it's an educative process, you don't (in my experience) get very far by offering them abstract (not tied to the task, I mean) rewards--such as a cake--coz they're interested in...the cake...so they cut as many corners as they can.

Then again, I don't think any job has to be intrinsically boring (though parts of any job are, I suppose), but in rigid hierarchies the top will pass the crap jobs down the line (which also reminds me of a time when I worked in a burger bar, where there were huge vats which needed cleaning, and the newest member of staff got...guess which job?)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 06:13:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You've partly reinvented the 'job complexes' of participatory economics. Not exactly a surprise since they make a lot of sense.

Speaking of automation, you may also be interested in reading Michael Goldhaber's essays, many on First Monday. Soon enough, money will no longer be effective in structuring even a fascist economy. Not that it was ever effective at structuring a human economy.

by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 11:53:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And I have a very, VERY thin skin for evil.

Ah, so eugenics is... cute?  harmless?  good clean fun?

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 03:44:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Necessary for the survival of the species in an age when advanced synthetic biological weapons will soon be available.

Do you really want to live in a world of psychos when every bozo can write and release a deadly virus as easily as people nowadays do computer viruses?

The moral philosophy that justifies eugenics in this situation is beyond the limits of my patience to spoonfeed you.

by richardk (richard kulisz gmail) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 11:20:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There's no need for you to spoonfeed anything to me -- you've illustrated my point much better than I could've done.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 25th, 2007 at 12:13:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Computer viruses are a logical consequence of the intellectual property regime applied to software (it made possible the Microsoft monoculture).

It's obvious to me that any citizen of a country providing reasonable science education to all has enough knowledge to kill a lot of people with simple and already available deadly technologies.

by Laurent GUERBY on Thu Jan 25th, 2007 at 07:07:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Posing as an anarchist, we have an ardent advocate of eugenics as well.

Somehow ironical if it weren't for that character in the Devils who advocated mass suicide. Though here of course, the anarchist in question limited his eugenics to himself.

Lemme guess - you'd apply your eugenics not just to the unborn...

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Thu Jan 25th, 2007 at 07:46:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Richard, I don't know how long you've been reading us, but it's hilarious (and highly unusual) to see redstar criticised from the left. His first comment above was a bit unusual for him - and it surprised me too...

But still, do take your promise seriously. Pretty please?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 09:09:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
and black on the other.

I get some of same when talking about nuclear power and about EU federalism too. Of course, I think strengthening EU federalism properly is a worthy cause for the real left. You know the words to the internationale, we're all in this together after all.

Anarchism is not socialism, something many sometimes forget, and in my mind, '68 is behind this. And "green" isn't "red" all the time, either.

I think it's a class thing. Maybe I can send Richard some Georg Lucasc to read before teeing off in future. (Or then again, maybe Lucacs is not real socialism...)

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 10:18:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

excluding the top 0.1% of earners.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 07:49:09 AM EST


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 07:57:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Like this one better.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:20:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To Martin Wolf:


Dear Mr Wolf,

In your article about European corporatism (24 January), you provide a graph showing GDP per capita for several countries, as a proportion of the same figure for the USA (copied here). It shows a stagnation, or even a decline of the realtive GDP per capita of European countries in the past 15 years.

It would have been appropriate to put that graph side by side with another graph about which you wrote about not long ago. ("A New Gilded Age", 25 April 2006). That graph, drawn from research by Picketti and Saer, showed that the portion of income captured by the top 0.1% had grown from 2% in 1980 to 7% in 2000 in the USA, while remaining constant at 2% in France.

Together, these two pieces of information suggest that French GDP per capita, excluding the top 0.1%, has remained essentially flat, relatively to that of the USA, at around 80% (see attached graph).

Thus the only apparent consequence of European "corporatism" is to prevent the very rich from becoming even richer. While I am sure that the very rich represent a disproportionate fraction of the readership of the FT, it is a bit rich to pretend that what happens to them has any bearing on the general economic situation of the rest of the population, and to rich such sweeping conclusions about the viability of economic models.



In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:13:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd add a stat on hours worked as well, normalizing for unememployment differentials if at all possible.

Many folks work less in France, by choice.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:22:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
to rich such sweeping conclusions

is funny (after "it's a bit rich!), but it really should be reach ;)

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:35:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
it's tempting to leave it in...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:45:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
not quite (from the comments in this excemment post in French)


notons que, toujours selon Eurostat, le nombre moyen d'heures effectivement travaillées par semaine, tous emplois confondus est:

France: 37,4

Allemagne: 35,8

Danemark: 35,9

Royaume Uni: 35,6

Suède: 36,3

Pays-Bas: 32,0

Zone Euro: 37,3



In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 08:45:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm having a problem with clarity today I guess.

What I meant was that in the EU, leisure (or time off) is traded against monetary considerations. Folks in the main work less hours than in, say, the US, where many workers are basically required, without protections, to work long hours if they want to pay the rent, put food on the table, avoid bankrutpcy, keep their access to health care and all the other things which require one to be gainfully employed.

The ILO tracks hours worked, and as you can see in the following, workers in the US work far longer hours than the other countries you graph.

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

France is for some reason not on ILO's graph above, but work hours for France are all the same similar to the upper range of EU nations:

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

When you adjust for this fact, GDP/head is a lot closer to US levels than first appears:

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

At 90% of US levels, I think we're doing pretty good. Especially considering all the debt-financing going on in the US, for which eventually the piper will need to be paid.

To my mind, this is a good thing, indicating a level of collective development, but then, there's no explaining personal preferences I guess.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 11:39:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Another reason (an "adjusted") GDP/head would probably be a lot closer to US levels than first appears: waste. I think it's fairly widely recognized that the US economy is probably the most wasteful in the world: it spends far more per capita than other advanced countries on energy, health care, advertising, litigation, and war, while getting nothing substantial out of these higher expenditures. But all of this waste is counted as a positive contribution to GDP.

Furthermore, GDP per capita is not a good figure to use if you are comparing living standards between countries, since it does not take income distribution into account, as people here are certainly aware, and as Jerome alluded to.

There have been many alternatives to GDP as a measure of economic welfare proposed over the years; this paper (a PDF file I just found by googling) surveys them. The paper concludes:

It is true that there is a certain degree of arbitrariness in index construction. Yet the fact that four of the five independently constructed indexes show much smaller increases in well-being than in GDP per capita in Canada since 1971, and show absolute declines in recent years, means that there must be something more than arbitrariness at work. Many variables that affect well-being are just not advancing as quickly as they used to, or may even be declining. This robustness of the finding of stagnation in well-being trends across four of the five indexes is thus important.
If most measures of economic welfare indicate that well-being is stagnating, then one can surmise that they would indicate that well-being in the US is not better than it is in most European countries. Thus, today, to use GDP per capita as a measure of well-being must be viewed as just another propaganda device.


A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns
by Alexander on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 01:31:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
  1. Is the EU getting more conservative in actuality or is it just that the conservative media is getting more panicked and outspoken? (Or perhaps Jerome is just doing a better job of reporting on the nonsense they publish).

  2. Is growth "stagnating" or is it just that the number of big deals that are available is diminishing? After you have merged the music industry to four firms and the telecom industry to a similar number, steel and aluminum to a handful and similar numbers in other areas there aren't many avenues for the investment bankers. So the lack of prospects in their sector gets translated into pontificating about the state of the entire economic system.

  3. The US has managed to live beyond it's means for most of the past 40 years. This has financed domestic excess as well as foreign adventurism. What has kept the European economies growing (or haven't they been)?

As for stagnating earnings: it seems to me that once people have reached a reasonable standard of living there is little reason to expect to see their effective earnings continue to go up. Those who become super wealthy need to spend their unspendable money on things with imaginary value like jewelry, antiques, fine art and the like. Since these items can be priced at any arbitrary level they are a perfect way to dispose of excess wealth. No matter how many Picasso's on the wall one can only sleep in one bed at a time.

So perhaps the middle class in the industrialized countries is already reaching my "steady-state" social organization. There is still (especially in the US) too much of a throwaway or planned obsolescence behavior, but this just shows that the stagnation hasn't forced large-scale changes in behavior yet.

People's leisure time is diminishing and the number of years in the work force is rising (the age for Social Security eligibility is going up from 65), so wage slaves will spend less over their lifetime on non-essentials.

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 10:01:52 AM EST
richard, it's great you're here, prickly presence that you are; i know you're a bad boy on the blogs, but your points can be made better without going all ad hom.

as far as i know everyone here is intelligent enough to listen to your messages without the need to over-personalise, or making your comments so polemic.

i don't think anyone's gonna be your monkey here anyway!

criticise opinions, not character, please.

we care a lot about tone here, as much as content, if never more!

what redstar said was people want to change their status in life, through working towards their dreams, he didn't say they were all going to turn into mad yuppies and start arms export businesses!

you make it sound like we all need to squelch any instinct to better our lives until we have fullblown socialism worldwide!

where i think i agree with you is that business schools teach getting rich is an end in itself, and there are a lot of people who are very shrewd and horny for power, yet don't give a toss anything else, and yes they are a lousy model.

you need someone to chew your frustrations out on, don't look for your meat here, because there is ample room for derision to play outwithout getting personal.

redstar has contributed tremendously thoughtful posts here for some time, so you barging in and attacking him for what you perceived he meant is just...rude.

you are dead smart, but so are many others on this board, who manage brilliantly to keep the vibe light and fun, even when discussing the most daunting and depressing subjects.

perhaps you could save your more vitriolic side for somewhere it would be more appreciated, and come here to relax, laugh and learn, like the rest of us!

nothin' personal, mind, i want you to stick around longer, which will only happen if you don't create some flamewar, piss in the soup, and the huff off with your opinion of us as inadequate at electronic battle, when we just want to shoot the shit and get to know each other better in peace.

have a bloggy day!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 10:43:58 AM EST

Funny thing is, the Netherlands is among the most "corporatist" economies in Europe. Business-labor-government is usually considered to be one of the reasons for the Dutch "miracle." Same with Ireland. Not to mention Scandinavia.

by TGeraghty on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 12:25:39 PM EST
as we've noted before, is to choose the right population sample. I expect that the 'working age' population used by Phelbs and Wolf in their texts (which I did not quote in full) is the 15-64, which gives different numbers.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 04:34:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Right, although as Dean Baker emphasizes "youth unemployment" (for example) does not necessarily imply just labor market failure, since some of what is called unemployment is actually the result of explicit policies to encourage college attendance or early retirement.

Which themselves of course may have been a response to earlier high unemployment rates, and now I feel like I'm going around in circles . . .

by TGeraghty on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 05:44:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On UK-France you have to take into account part-time share of the workforce which is much higher in the UK.
by Laurent GUERBY on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 06:30:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes. A big part of the Dutch "miracle" economy, and Danish "flexisecurity" relies on temp jobs too.
by TGeraghty on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 07:08:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Martin Rhodes: The Political Economy of Social Pacts: "Competitive Corporatism" and European Welfare Reform

. . . one of the most important, but until now neglected aspects of the "new politics of welfare" in western Europe are new nationally-negotiated social
pacts . . . bridging, and innovating in linkages between social security systems, labor market employment regulation and wage bargaining. . . . all consist of new market-conforming policy mixes. But they are far from being vehicles for neo-liberal hegemony or economic nationalism.

. . . the social pacts . . . combine traditional incomes policies with wider and more innovative forms of social security and labor market reform. This makes them critical for linking macro-economic objectives with micro-economic adjustment. They may also prove to be a precondition for a European wide expansionary policy, which . . . will provide the real stimulus to employment creation that supply-side reform alone cannot deliver. . . . These pacts contain important trade-offs between equity and efficiency of the kind that have always characterized welfare states, even during their "golden age"

"Corporatism," i.e. business-labor-government cooperation, is not part of the problem, it's part of the solution to the problem of combining economic growth with equity. This is a lesson that we here in the US would do well to learn.

by TGeraghty on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 12:39:41 PM EST
Riccardo Faini: Europe: a Continent in Decline?

His conclusions:

  1. Once corrected for demographic changes and accounting differences, the growth performance of the Euro nations since 1990 is no worse than that of the United States;

  2. The income gap that still exists between Europe and the US is mostly accounted for by differences in hours worked . . .;

  3. There has been no systematic decline in the competitiveness of European economies . . .

And this:

FT: European Productivity

Are European workers turning into swots? Although the quality of the statistics is notoriously poor, productivity appears to have accelerated significantly. . . .

And, not that this is good news or anything, but what is our culturally-embedded embrace of the rewards of business life buying us?

FT: US productivity growth lowest for decade

The US economy last year recorded its lowest rate of labour productivity growth in more than a decade, with growth in output per hour worked falling behind the EU and Japan. . . .

Gail Fosler, the chief economist of the Conference Board, told the Financial Times that the fall in productivity growth was unlikely to be cyclical and the result of weaker gains in services' industries, raising "concerns about the long-lasting productivity impact of information and communications technology".

by TGeraghty on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 01:12:39 PM EST
Silver lining - at least they're using the word correctly. For a while there was a tendency on lefty blogs to use Musssolini's famous phrase without understanding what it meant. Ugly innuendo - EU economic policy is fascist (not the only group to espouse corporatism, but they're the ones most famous for it)
by MarekNYC on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 01:19:43 PM EST
The modern meaning of "corporatism" - well-established in social sciences - has nothing to do with fascism. It refers to the various systems of business-labor-state cooperation in economic policy-making that arose in many post-WWII European economies.
by TGeraghty on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 02:45:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Interesting. In historical texts it generally refers to third way socio-economic ideologies from the interwar period. The postwar version is more likely to be called the welfare state or regulated capitalism, or dirigisme (when talking about France). Discipline bias.
by MarekNYC on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 03:02:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, my discipline bias too. You may be entirely accurate about Wolf's motives in terms of associating current European economic policies with fascism. I just wanted to emphasize that modern postwar corporatism does not necessarily imply association with fascism.
by TGeraghty on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 05:40:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome,

did you see this and the data itself?

by Sargon on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 02:04:43 PM EST
Thanks for the link. Definitely diary material there...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 24th, 2007 at 04:32:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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