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Jure sanguinis, EU citizen via great-grandfather...

by gioele Thu Jan 11th, 2007 at 03:19:15 AM EST

I've finally sent in my application for riconoscimento di' cittadinanza Italiana in to the consulate having jurisdiction, and am awaiting word that my papers have been filed in Napoli. I will then be officially an EU citizen and able to request my Italian passport from the consulate.

From the diaries - afew


I traced my right to Italian citizenship through my great-grandfather, grandmother and mother. It took me two years, or one congressional election cycle, to get my papers together.

I'm curios how other EU citizens feel about jure sanguinis conceptually and practically, and how you think it might affect the future of the EU (specifically electorally, seeing as how the Italian ex-pat vote made the difference in the last election, and Argentina alone probably has 18 million unrecognized Italian citizens).

How many others here on the blog also have dual US/EU citizenships? How tenuous is your relationship to your second nationality?

This is my first diary, so be kind. As I ease into my European skin, I'm sure I'll feel more comfortable posting here on EuroTrib...

Poll
European via bisnonno?!?!...
. Welcome to the EU paisan! 86%
. OK, but don't get too comfortable... 0%
. Not so much! 4%
. Sheesh, are you kidding me? Is that really possible? 0%
. Who left the door open? 0%
. As long as you agree with my political views... 8%
. Why would you want to do that? 0%

Votes: 23
Results | Other Polls
Display:
GREAT NEWS, WELCOME ON BOARD!!  :)

"Ignoring moralities is always undesirable, but doing so systematically is really worrisome." Mohammed Khatami
by eternalcityblues (parvati_roma aaaat libero.it) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 02:54:23 AM EST
Well, welcome to ET!  (I can't welcome you to Europe because I don't live there and am not a European national....)

I did actually look into this once, but I'm not eligible, too many generations removed from my immigrant ancestors.

I think the Indian system is interesting:

India: Persons with at least one Indian great-grandparent may apply for a Person of Indian Origin card, provided that neither the applicant nor any ancestor has ever been a citizen of Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Afghanistan or China. This card is a travel document and permits the holder to enter and stay in India without a visa, own land and attend educational institutions, but not to vote or hold office. In addition, persons of Indian origin who are nationals of certain specified countries (again subject to an exclusion for Pakistanis and Bangladeshis) may apply for Overseas Indian Citizenship, which confers similar rights and also permits the holder to apply for full Indian nationality after one year of residence.

My hyphenated-Egyptian friends, all citizens of a variety of English-speaking countries, fall into two categories: those who have Egyptian citizenship and those who don't.  The two who don't would actually like to have it, but since their parents were actually born abroad, they would have to register their foreign-born parents first, one of whom is dead, and that makes the whole situation more complicated than it's actually worth.  (The "rewards" of Egyptian citizenship are a little less vast than that of European citizenship....)

So let me ask you a question:  What do you plan to do with your Italian citizenship?  What were your reasons for going through the process?  Do you plan to vote in Italian elections?

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 03:00:15 AM EST
In answer to your questions:

a) I intend to move to Europe with my wife, b) I pursued this like I was being chased by hell-hounds (in a sense I was, it was Dec. of '04 and the GOP and W had been reinstalled), c) yes I intend to vote in any election that I am able, early and often (just kidding).

by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 09:22:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hello, giole.  Congratulations on (almost) acquiring your Italian/EU citizenship.

I have a question regarding what seems to be a discrepancy between entries on the topic in Wikipedia.

The entry on jus sanguinis regarding Italy says:

* Italy, possibly alone in this respect, bestows citizenship jus sanguinis: There is no limit of generations for the citizenship via blood but and this is very important, your Italian ancestor born in Italian territories before 1861 had to die after 1861 anywhere (in Italian territory or abroad) but without losing the Italian citizenship before death in order to being able to continue the jure sanguinis chain, this is required because 1861 is the year that the Unification of the Italian territory took place. Another constraint is that each descendant of the ancestor through whom citizenship is claimed jus sanguinis can pass on citizenship only if they were a citizen at the time of the birth of the person to whom they are passing it. So if one person in the chain renounces or otherwise loses their Italian citizenship, then has a child, that child is not an Italian citizen jus sanguinis. A further constraint is that citizenship could be passed on by females only after January 1st 1948, so those born before that date are not Italian citizens jus sanguinis if their line of descent from an Italian citizen depends on a female at some point.

But according to the entry on Italian nationality law - Special acquisition of citizenship through jus sanguinis (Italian: iure sanguinis Right of Blood), among several alternative conditions that satisfy requirements for Italian citizenship through jus sanguinis are the following:

1) Your father was an Italian citizen at the time of your birth and you never renounced your right to the Italian citizenship.

or

3) Your father was born in the United States or a Country other than Italy, your paternal grandfather was an Italian citizen at the time of his birth, neither you nor your father ever renounced your right to the Italian citizenship.

Condition 3) implies that your father does not have to have Italian citizenship (as long as he has not renounced his right to Italian citizenship either, and as long as at the time of his birth, his father had Italian citizenship).  So according to this entry, each descendant of the ancestor through whom citizenship is claimed by jus sanguinis does not have to be a citizen at the time of the birth of the person to whom they are passing it in order to pass on citizenship, thus contradicting the text in the jus sanguinis entry.  For according to the first entry, your father would first have to acquire Italian citizenship through jus sanguinis from his father before you were born, which is clearly not the case according to the latter entry.

Or did I misread one or both of these entries?

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 03:01:28 AM EST
I guess my question can be answered simply if your mother or your grandmother does not have Italian citizenship.  (Or if your mother has Italian citizenship, if she only obtained it after you were born.)

And your mother was born after 1947, right?

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 03:10:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One has or does not have Italian citizenship, you're born with it.

I am seeking to have that status recognized, in order to do so, I must prove that my grandmother was born in the US to an Italian man, who must still be a citizen at the time of her birth, what he does (he got naturalized) subsequently is irrelevant. My mother was born in 1949, after the Italian republican constitution was ratified in '48, which gave women the same rights as Italian men (though this wasn't true of citizenship until 1983, when the Italian high court retroactively gave women their full rights), as such she is Italian as am I.

My mother's and grandmother's Italian civilian status is de-facto recognized in the process of my recognition.

by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 09:31:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One has or does not have Italian citizenship, you're born with it.

So it's just a matter of getting that citizenship recognized.  Remarkable.  I did not realize just how generous the Italian law was.

Then would it be correct to say that those clauses in the Italian nationality law - Special acquisition of citizenship Wikipedia entry should be changed such that the phrase "was an Italian citizen" becomes "was officially recognized [riconosciuto] as an Italian citizen", e.g.:

1) Your father was officially recognized as an Italian citizen at the time of your birth and you never renounced your right to the Italian citizenship.

...

3) Your father was born in the United States or a Country other than Italy, your paternal grandfather was officially recognized as an Italian citizen at the time of his birth, neither you nor your father ever renounced your right to the Italian citizenship.

[etc.]

?  (Sorry for splitting hairs, but I want to make sure I understand this exactly.)

Good luck to your wife on getting that fellowship.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 08:38:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's too bad that more EU countries don't have this policy. If Germany or Ireland did, I'd be an EU citizen in short order (for bureaucratic definitions of "short").

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 01:21:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What's the Irish rule? Parents?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 01:24:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Grandparents. I think most EU countries are the same, but it's been about year since I did a (quick) look. My most recent European ancestors are great-great-grandparents.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 01:46:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't follow the football, but I remember rumours a few years back that having a great-grandparent who had once had a pint of Guinness was enough to get any half-decent footballer into the Irish national team...
by Sassafras on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 06:36:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Slander, vile slander. A pint of bottled Guinness could never make you an Irishman, no matter how good a footballer you are. It had to be a pint of Guinness on tap, or the equivalent of two pints in the bottle.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu Jan 11th, 2007 at 12:49:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So when are you fleeing... er... emigrating?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 03:42:59 AM EST
My wife is a finalist for a fellowship that may bring us to Germany in June, though the sense of urgency has subsided somewhat due to the election of a (mostly) sane congress. Though I'm very exited about the prospect.
by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 09:35:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is interesting. What other loopholes are there into the EU countries?

Afaik Sweden has no grand-parent clauses. Germany has some ethnicity rules. But what about the rest of EU?

And another question: as policies get more coordinated, and an EU passport gets more important then what particular country it is from, what about the future? Is a common policy on migration in the works?

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 04:34:41 AM EST
Here is the Spanish law.

One can essentially only acquire nationality after residence of

  • 1 year if you are born on Spanish soil, you had the option to acquire the nationality but didn't exercise it, you have been under stewardship of a person or institution in Spain, you have been married to a Spaniard for a year, you are the vidowed spouse of a Spaniard, you are born outside Spain with a Spanish parent or grandparent;
  • 2 years if you are from Latin America, Andorra, Phillippines, Ecuatorial Guinea, Portugal or Sephardic Jew.
  • 5 years for refugees
  • 10 years for anyone else.

Now the question is how you can get legal residence...

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 05:01:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is interesting. What other loopholes are there into the EU countries?

Afaik Sweden has no grand-parent clauses. Germany has some ethnicity rules. But what about the rest of EU?

Wikipedia's entry on jus sanguinis has a summary (albeit with at least one possible error) on various countries jus sanguinis policies.

And another question: as policies get more coordinated, and an EU passport gets more important then what particular country it is from, what about the future? Is a common policy on migration in the works?

I could find only a few relevant mentions on Europa.eu:

Resolution on respect for human rights in the European Union (1996)

The European Parliament, ...

Acknowledges that the rules governing nationality are a matter for Member States and can be based, as a matter of principle, both on "jus sanguinis¨ and "jus soli¨; reiterates that the exercise of civic rights should be linked to the acquisition of nationality; calls on Member States to enable third-country nationals who have secured the right of long-term residence and intend to remain in the EU to acquire nationality; ...

and less relevantly,

REPORT ON THE SITUATION OF FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS IN THE EUROPEAN UNION AND ITS MEMBER STATES IN 2005:
CONCLUSIONS AND RECOMMENDATIONS (PDF)

Italy is one of the Member States where access to the citizenship is the most difficult for immigrants and their children469. Italian legislation privileges indeed the jus sanguinis principle. For being authorised to access the Italian citizenship, a long period of legal residence (10 years) is required. The Parliament is currently discussing a proposal which aims at shortening this period, however no agreement has been reached at yet on such proposal. The Network notes, first, that such stringent conditions for accessing the Italian citizenship470 favour illegal organizations and the traffic of false registrations in the register of births : thus, there have been reports about the racket of false birth certificates - paid 20.000 euros - discovered by the police of Rome in November 2005. Second, thus confirming the fears expressed by the Network in its Thematic Comment n°3 cited above, these conditions also cause discriminations in many other fields, especially accommodation in public housing, where points are given to the applicants if they are Italian citizens, and in employment, where, as appears from the Report Ires-CGIL `Lavoratori immigrati nel settore edile' of July 2005, migrant workers are often paid less than Italian workers471.

Also,

The Legal Status of Third Country Nationals who are Long-Term Residents in a Member State of the European Union (PDF)

Notwithstanding the older academic literature, which indicates very substantial differences in acquisition of nationality in the Member States, there are clear indications that the systems are beginning to approach one another in Europe. There are still substantial differences as regards whether dual nationality is permitted or not with Austria, Denmark and Germany being the most strict and Belgium, Ireland, France, Portugal and the UK the most flexible. In Italy and the Netherlands either the law or the practice on dual nationality has become more flexible during the 1990ies.  In Sweden the issue has been under discussion for considerable time in relation to its policy on the social integration of immigrants. However, the much discussed difference between ius sanguinis and ius soli is much blurred now in the Member States of the European Union, especially after Germany at the beginning of the new Millennium introduced the ius soli for the second generation immigrants. Even in the last state to maintain a system of complete ius soli, Ireland, there are proposals to change the law to a more mixed system. In most other Member States a combination of birth on the territory and the status of the parents is critical to the acquisition either automatic or by declaration of nationality by the second generation.



Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 05:28:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Greece has laws very similar to Italy's.

I've heard of first generation Greek-Americans traveling on a US passport in Greece being told they have two weeks to register for the military or leave the country as in the eyes of the government son of a Greek is a Greek.

by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 09:39:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, the conscription thing is an issue here too, for Egyptians who live abroad and return to visit.  But I'm pretty sure that holders of foreign passports are automatically exempted, which is one reason why so many people want foreign passports.

Interesting article here in the Daily Star about the Egyptian "trend" of getting a foreign passport (legally or not) and the associated benefits of posessing one.

Basically, Egyptians who have dual nationality are treated much, much, much better than those without.  Here, I mean, they're treated better here, not just when they go abroad.  There are literally different laws for foreigners and Egyptians.  Like I said, no national service requirement (it's a two-year stint) and you're allowed to drink during Ramadan like a regular foreigner.

But this blog post has a dire (and astonishing) story indicating that this "special status" may not be as complete as many people think.

H/t to Hossam for the links.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 10:02:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In Greece, from what I know, you acquire citizenship through your parents but only indirectly from your grandparents: if your father and mother are alive they first have to claim their citizenship in order for you to claim yours.

However if you are born to a father who is a Greek citizen (or to a mother after 1984), you automatically acquire Greek citizenship, which means - if you are male - that you are considered eligible for conscription and in fact, after a certain number of months of continuous stay in Greece you are required to present yourself to the local draft board. However this law is rarely implemented and there are special provisions for the military obligations of Greeks living abroad. In fact after Schengen, it is very difficult for the military authorities to prove that you have been residing continuously in Greece, so that has lead to the laws becoming irrelevant - especially for Greeks living in the EU.

Having said that, members of ethnic Greek minorities (such as those in the former Soviet Union, Bulgaria, Albania and Turkey) have become citizens by act of parliament (early on, in the case of the former USSR, very recently in the case of Albania), and frankly being of "Greek descent" in general makes acquiring Greek citizenship much easier...

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 11:10:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Another document discusses the issue at a little more length:

Benchmarking in Immigrant Integration (PDF)

2.3. The legal-political dimension: jus sanguinis versus jus soli

Irrespective of the degree of permanency in their perception of immigration, all Member States sooner or later have seen themselves faced with growing numbers of non-indigenous residents, many of whom are not EU-citizens. Therefore, states must reflect on the legal and political position they wish to grant to these people and their children. Here we may also distinguish between two approaches, which tell us something about the nature of the integration process as it is envisaged by the host societies. Most illustrative in this context is the classical distinction between jus soli and jus sanguinis. The jus soli system is based on the principle of territoriality. Under this system all people resident in a territory have the same rights, irrespective of their ancestry or length of residence. For newly arrived immigrants there may be a short transition period, during which these rights can be acquired gradually. The jus sanguinis system, by contrast, is governed by the principle of descent. Full citizenship and all rights related to that status (e.g. voting rights or access to public service) are passed on from one generation to the next along the `lines of blood'. Citizenship and political status are acquired by birth. This implies that not all residents of one country are treated similarly. Immigrants and those who descend from immigrants, and sometimes also national minorities, may have rights and obligations that differ from those of the dominant population.

Of course, both systems are ideal types; reality usually offers a mixture of the two models, with considerable differences between the Member States. Traditionally, the United Kingdom presents one of the most outspoken examples of jus soli. Under the present legislation, anyone born in that country is a British citizen. Germany, by contrast, long favoured the jus sanguinis system. Access to German citizenship used to be extremely difficult for anyone who had no German parent, even for the second and subsequent generations born and living in Germany. The other side of this coin was that ethnic Germans (Aussiedler) `returning' from Eastern Europe - even after several generations - were granted German citizenship from the very moment of their settlement in Germany. Because of their German descent they are not seen as immigrants, even though their social situation and their needs are highly comparable to that of new arrivals from other countries. In the last few years, however, more elements of jus soli have been introduced into the German system. French policies in this field oscillate between the British and the German approach. When the Right is in power it tends to listen to the nationalists and to favour jus sanguinis, whilst the Left tends to give more weight to the interests of the second generation of immigrants.

The distinction between jus sanguinis and jus soli is fundamental in any analysis of integration, since it defines ways individuals can accede to membership of a new state system. Several scholars have argued that this distinction reflects deeply rooted differences between nation states in their cultural traditions and in their self-image (Hammar 1990, Bauböck 1994, Joppke 1999a). In practice, however, the distinction has primarily legal and political implications. The legal implications refer to rights and entitlements that are normally linked to citizenship - and usually not to other types of entitlements, for example in the sphere of social policy or education. The political implications refer to possibilities of influencing decision-making processes in the public sphere. The possession of active and passive voting rights is the most outspoken expression of this. However, the legal and political situation of immigrants may have obvious effects on their social and economic position as well as on their cultural situation, but in essence these effects are indirect. Therefore, integration and integration policies should be understood more broadly than the mere access to citizenship and the granting of rights to immigrants.

and again here:

Rules for naturalisation differ from one Member State to another. The two main citizenship regimes, jus sanguinis and the jus soli form the basis of these differences. Especially countries whose laws on citizenship are largely based on jus sanguinis (citizenship based on descent) have had to make changes in order to facilitate naturalisation for their migrants. An additional difference is that some Member States are much more sympathetic than others are towards migrants possessing dual citizenship. Some Member States demand from migrants to abandon their old citizenship upon becoming naturalised, as they assume that dual citizenship is a potential for conflicting loyalties. In this view, citizenship clearly means more than the mere attribution of rights and duties. Citizenship also contains notions of `national identity' that are meant to generate a `cohesive society'. However, this sense of nationality as an integral part of a shared identity is not felt to the same extent in all Member States.

Until 2000 German citizenship legislation was based almost exclusively on jus sanguinis. The idea of jus soli was absent and naturalisation was extremely complicated. This was partly to emphasise that Germany was not an immigration country. Moreover, naturalisation could only take place if this was considered to be in the German interest. The interest of the migrant was not taken into account. Dual citizenship was not allowed. Since 2000, however, children born to foreign parents in Germany may possess dual citizenship until the age of 23, after which they have to make a choice between German citizenship and the citizenship of their parents.

Whereas in Germany it used to be difficult to obtain German citizenship, in France, people of Algerian descent protested against a decision, taken in the early 1990s, that second-generation migrants automatically obtained French citizenship. They saw this as a form of neo-colonialism. Others who were opposed to this policy also claimed that the link between French citizenship and French national identity became unclear as a result of it. (Broeders 2001). In 1993 French naturalisation legislation changed again. From then on, children of migrants born in France had to express their will to become naturalised. Prior to naturalisation they had to have lived in France for at least 5 years. In France the issue of dual citizenship has never really been defined as a problem, as it has been in other countries. Even the nationalists have not tried to prohibit it (Brubaker 1992).



Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 05:41:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Interesting..
I had always thought the italian were too generous. But it was mostly based on the various scandals involving passport for "calciatori" and decisions of a player to ask for the citizenship under pressure of the club president . I always got the impression there were no restrictions like keeping the citizenship and therefore a link/ a minimal involvement through the generations.
Thanks to ET, I know now there are some. But the last comment of Brunoken makes me doubt again.

Anyway, it is a balance between fairness for the individual and the collective: I am istinctively in favor of letting every individual choosing his fate, but I find it looking like Italy plundering Argentina and being unfair for the other argentinians without a choice.
After 1 generation in Argentina, I find it difficult to distinguish betweeen a possible italian and its neighbour.

Apart from any philosophical consideration about the meaning of citizenship, which I am not able to solve here,the funny thing is simply the reason why italian law looks like that.
 I believe it was a soul massage for Italy, old civilised country  losing a big chunk of his population to others countries, and being a minor part of the international concert. So, the law was meaning: our people will come back, it is just a temporary bad time, we have few colonies but a big diaspora.
It had no cost, as long as nobody came back. Now with the EU boom, the situation is different. And such thing change slowly.

And even if unintended  maybe  it is a good thing for Italy,with its demographic troubles.


La répartie est dans l'escalier. Elle revient de suite.

by lacordaire on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 05:14:20 AM EST
are they really coming back?  My wife's cousins returned to the US recently after retiring back to Sicily 15-20 yrs ago.  My guess is their Social Security goes farther in FL or want to be near their offspring.  The value of the euro ought to be enough to scare off lots of Americans.  It's not like a generation ago when a few USD's and you were well off.
by HiD on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 05:21:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm hoping to live in Europe, get paid in quid, and have an ever cheaper mortgage in the US as the dollar slides into the abyss.
by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 10:00:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wouldn't bet against the dollar all that heavily.  we're not in a death spiral just yet.  Europe can't afford for the Euro to be $2  or the UK for the pound to be $3.5 either.

Just 2 years ago the left conventional wisdom was the $/E at $1.35 was just the start of the tumble.  And we've been the other way ever since.   Conventional wisdom is already baked into the market.

by HiD on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 05:46:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What demographic troubles? Italy has a population density of 200 per sq km, or 2/3 more than the EU average.

By the way, I wouldn't be surprised if many young Argentinians were not considering acquiring Italian Citizenship to come to Spain (for language reasons) as EU citizens. 100 years ago Italy was impoverished and Argentina was the land of opportunity, but the EU seems to be doing better now than Argentina.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 05:28:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok, maybe the italian population does not need  to grow . But the fecondity rate is way less than needed for stability.
We will see how it does play out. So let´s it call a demographic question for now.

But you are right, it is likely they mostly go to spain, it holds true for the footballers lately. Even the one carrying a french passport as Higuain.
It is a spanish football association conspiration. Spain rules!

Nolens volens the state of the laws in a country of the EU carries consequence for the other EU members. That´s what is fascinating wih the EU construction. And for once it is not just an economic point.

After learning that there are 800 000 Rumanians in Spain, maybe I will learn that there are 500.000 "italians" speaking fluently spanish living there. Have you heard of any number?
For myself, I have a couple of anecdotal datas in Germany, but they are mostly of german ascent.

La répartie est dans l'escalier. Elle revient de suite.

by lacordaire on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 09:01:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But the fecondity rate is way less than needed for stability.

Oh, good, that means population will decline eventually, as it needs to, all other things being equal.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 09:15:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
you know, I have heard few people so far with your thinking. The first was an Italian from Milan,more or less the region with the lowest fecondity.
And as a french, I was surprised. I thought, hum, maybe it is what people feel there, not only a question of money/child friendliness of the city/ working habits.
And now you, from spain where the rate is now at the same point.

In any  case, Stability is Ok for me, but regression may be tricky. We know that society in the wake of the demographic transition with an "excess" of young men are more violent, if I record well.
We don´t know for instance what happen with ageing society.It could be OK, but we don´t know now, do we?

I Wonder what make us having such divergent point of view.It is not just a rational thing, is it?
Do you feel overcrowded in spain? I myself never had that feeling, but I never lived in Milan or the suburbs of a big metropole.

La répartie est dans l'escalier. Elle revient de suite.

by lacordaire on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 05:25:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just call me a Malthusian.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 11th, 2007 at 04:40:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Spain and Portugal have protested in the recent past against Italy's citizenship laws. Many South Americans would acquire an Italian ancestry to enter the EU and head straight to Spain.

During the previous government, the so-called Mirko Tremaglia (a Salò kitty) law was passed that set up twelve seats in parliament for Italians living abroad. The rightwing coalition parties actively courted citizens of SA to reclaim their Italian citizenship, apparently eluding themselves that they could build a voter base. Even fringe benefits were thrown in if they also joined the party. (Maurizio Chierici did an excellent article in Unità on the affaire in 2004 or 2005.)

The Lega Nord had turned citizenship into an industry. Northern towns had no problem finding those long lost Lumbard roots to repopulate Aryan Padania.

But the whole scheme backfired. Italians abroad voted en masse for the Left. And a certain number of enterprising individuals acquired EU citizenry without necessarily lugging Padanian blood around in their veins.

See gilgamesh's Prodi Bucks Trend on Immigration at Booman for previous discussion.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 05:11:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
apparently eluding themselves

deluding?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 11th, 2007 at 04:39:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Quote:
100 years ago Italy was impoverished and Argentina was the land of opportunity, but the EU seems to be doing better now than Argentina.
---
Yap...you never know...maybe Russia is going to be "land of opportunity" at some point...not to mention China that already is Mecca for western businessmen and big corporations...
I managed to see things I never thought I would see...the end of communism being one of them, American fascism...
China's capitalism / feudalism...Ah who knows what else I may see in next 20-30 years if I live just normal life...
Strange world and interesting times...to hell with them...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Thu Jan 11th, 2007 at 07:53:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, the law was meaning: our people will come back, it is just a temporary bad time, we have few colonies but a big diaspora.
It had no cost, as long as nobody came back.

Remember it came into force at the time of Italy's reunification in 1861. Difficult times and lots of recent wars... and in the long struggle for reunification many Italian nationalists had been exiled. Plus the Venetian republic - whose territory used to extend all down the Dalmatian coast and included various widely-scattered Greek islands - had collapsed less than a century earlier leaving behind large swathes of Italians in its wake.. plus trading colonies in Egypt, Lebanon and parts of Greece - all with uncertain futures.  Plus Italians had already started emigrating to seek work not only in the "New World" (US, Argentina, Venezuela, Canada, Australia etc....) but also in wealthier and more industrialised European countries further north... usually with the initial intention of ultimately returning home with enough money to make the whole village die of envy.  Some managed it, many died abroad of hardship and overwork .. and some stayed on permanently.

Re "nobody came back" - not true even in the case of emigrants to the US: I personally know several families with great-grandparents, grandparents or  parents who had emigrated to the US then ended up returning to Italy. Carlo Levi's famous book "Christ stopped at Eboli" tells the stories of several former emigrants from the South... emigrating - or sending family members off to work abroad - was often the only way peasant families could hope to better their lot, buy land or set up in business as shopkeepers etc.  Same thing is true of a great many immigrants in Europe today.  Of course both then and now many end up getting married with someone they meet in their new environment so decide to stay on and start a family, see how it goes...

"Ignoring moralities is always undesirable, but doing so systematically is really worrisome." Mohammed Khatami

by eternalcityblues (parvati_roma aaaat libero.it) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 12:11:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
in the 80's when I toured Greece, lots of shop holders wanted to talk about their lives in Detroit, NY etc.
by HiD on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 05:50:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A certain amount of Migrant coming back home sounds logical to; after all,  the dream does not become reality for every one. I can remember in Italy articles, books and so on featuring such cases.
And the first generation may come back for their old days (significant for the one in France, GB, Germany). But they are Italian, so they don't need any citizenship.
But after the second generation, I still believe it was just a trickle, till recently.
Unless you have some numbers, I remain of the opinion that this unusually generous regulation was a feel-good law, with the effect of sending a message to the diaspora,which could only be positive for the trade and the foreign travels of politicians, but the italian state didn't have to really bother with other consequences at home.
As to your other point,  I agree it was not only a migrant problem, and the Italians of Istria as well as the politic exilees had to be dealt with. But it could have been made for that effect without going back to the great-grandfather.  
Look at the difference: Irland/Italy vs. France or Switzerland. It is a divide along emigration vs. immigration countries. Italy, Irland and Spain changed side very recently, so we will see what happens, but their actual laws are not laws of an immigration countries.

La répartie est dans l'escalier. Elle revient de suite.
by lacordaire on Thu Jan 11th, 2007 at 06:16:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
After rereading the thread, I have to be more precise. Spain law  seems allowing to fiddle with what is "legal residence", and Irland asking for some autonomous action for keeping the citizenship.
Italy is a little bit of an outlier.

La répartie est dans l'escalier. Elle revient de suite.
by lacordaire on Thu Jan 11th, 2007 at 08:00:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
 I'm genuinely happy for you, gioele, and will be curious to hear of your experience as an immigrant to Italy. And...also curious to know...Does the UK have anything similar to Italy? If yes, would the fact that my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather (that's 10 generations, yes?) who immigrated to the American colonies in1671 (before they were colonies) that I could get UK citizenship? I'm not holding my breath...

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 08:20:26 AM EST
Thanks and sorry, LOL, but you're SOL on that angle...
by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Thu Jan 11th, 2007 at 12:55:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've got dual citizenship - US/UK. My ancestors don't come from Britain, I've never lived there, only visited twice, and have no sense of British identity whatsoever. But my mom was born there during the war, so...  

I also have a dual national identity - US/Polish, but I've never bothered getting Polish citizenship though I could.

by MarekNYC on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 11:22:50 AM EST
Willkommen, bienvenue, welcome!
Fremde, étranger, stranger.
Gluklich zu sehen, je suis enchanté,
Happy to see you, bleibe, reste, stay.

Willkommen, bienvenue, welcome
Im EuroTrib, à EuroTrib, to EuroTrib !


"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 11:53:20 AM EST
Grazie!
by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Thu Jan 11th, 2007 at 12:48:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wait.  Anyone with Italian great-grandparents is eligible for Italian citizenship?  That's wild.  Considering there are 15.6 million Italian Americans, and that the big migration only occured roughly 100 years ago, it seems to me that a heck of a lot of people could do this.  Including my entire step-family.

Gah.  If only France or Ireland could be so welcoming to their estranged offspring...

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 02:29:03 PM EST
go read the rules, they're pretty easy to meet.

But many Italian Americans got citizenship in the US pretty quickly.  Their issue afterward is barred I believe so the numbers aren't so great.  That's what kills it for my wife (not that she has any interest)

by HiD on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 05:52:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, if I understand correctly, anyone with Italian great-grandparents already HAS Italian citizenship (assuming certain details hold true): they may simply just need to get it officially "recognized".

I was just as astonished as you when I read gioele's clarification above.

If only France or Ireland could be so welcoming to their estranged offspring...

Probably won't have much luck with France, but according to Wikipedia:

Ireland: The Nationality and Citizenship Act allows any person with an Irish grandparent to become an Irish citizen "by registering in the Foreign Births Register at an Irish embassy or consular office, or at the Department of Foreign Affairs in Dublin." Such an individual may also pass his entitlement to Irish nationality on to his children by registering in the Foreign Births Register even if he chooses not to take up citizenship himself. Section 16 of the Irish citizenship law of 1986 grants the interior minister authority to confer automatic citizenship on any applicant of "Irish origin or affiliation" although this is sparingly used.

So if I am reading this correctly, if you have a great-grandparent who was an Irish citizen, your mother or father (descended from that great-grandparent) could register at the Foreign Births Register at an Irish embassy or consular office and then pass on Irish citizenship to you.  Or, you could simply try to apply through Section 16 (though that sounds less easy to do.)

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 09:07:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, this is a congenital condition. I was able to tell my 92 year old nona that she is, and has been for her whole life, an Italian. She said if she was 20 years younger she'd move to the south of France.

And no, I believe that the grandparent must have been born in Ireland, not just to an Irish citizen. The extension of citizenship is to the second generation removed from the last Irish born progenitor.

Italia has no generational limit, the 1861 date is important because your Italian ascendant must have been born in or lived in the Italian state post 1861, or else they might have been citizens of the Bourbon ruled Kingdom of Two Sicily's, or one of the various other players in the region (Austria, France, Papal State, etc.).

by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Thu Jan 11th, 2007 at 12:36:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, this is a congenital condition. I was able to tell my 92 year old nona that she is, and has been for her whole life, an Italian. She said if she was 20 years younger she'd move to the south of France.

Thanks, that answers my question above, too.

I believe that the grandparent must have been born in Ireland, not just to an Irish citizen. The extension of citizenship is to the second generation removed from the last Irish born progenitor.

Ah, here's the rub:

A person whose great-grandparent was born in Ireland may register for Irish citizenship, provided that the applicant's parent had registered in the Foreign Births Register before the person's birth.

So the Wikipedia entry should be amended to say:

Such an individual may also pass his entitlement to Irish nationality on to his children by registering in the Foreign Births Register even if he chooses not to take up citizenship himself, provided he has registered with the Foreign Births Register before the birth of those children.

But the bottom line is still, unless poemless's parent (whose grandparent was born in Ireland) had already registered with the Foreign Births Register before she was born, then she cannot obtain Irish citizenship in that manner.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Thu Jan 11th, 2007 at 01:11:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey, stop saying how the Wikipedia entry should be amended, and amend it. It's a wiki, and you have the sources to back the amendment.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jan 11th, 2007 at 04:37:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Done.

That was scarily easy.

I have lost my wikivirginity.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Thu Jan 11th, 2007 at 04:50:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Welcome to Europe! -and Eurotrib where many of us may be dual citizens or the equivalent (long term residency in another country).

What are the US laws on dual citizenship now? Do you lose US citizenship- or does one just not bother to mention the changeover? I recall that Bush père had passed a law allowing dual citizenship but that the Clinton administration set restrictions.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 05:26:13 PM EST
From U.S. State Department website on travel:

DUAL NATIONALITY

Dual nationality can occur as the result of a variety of circumstances. The automatic acquisition or retention of a foreign nationality, acquired, for example, by birth in a foreign country or through an alien parent, does not affect U.S. citizenship. It is prudent, however, to check with authorities of the other country to see if dual nationality is permissible under local law. Dual nationality can also occur when a person is naturalized in a foreign state without intending to relinquish U.S. nationality and is thereafter found not to have lost U.S. citizenship the individual consequently may possess dual nationality. While recognizing the existence of dual nationality and permitting Americans to have other nationalities, the U.S. Government does not endorse dual nationality as a matter of policy because of the problems which it may cause. Claims of other countries upon dual-national U.S. citizens often place them in situations where their obligation to one country are in conflict with the laws of the other. In addition, their dual nationality may hamper efforts to provide U.S. diplomatic and consular protection to them when they are abroad.

And further up on that page:

POTENTIALLY EXPATRIATING STATUTES

Section 349 of the Immigration and Nationality Act, as amended, states that U.S. citizens are subject to loss of citizenship if they perform certain acts voluntarily and with the intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship. Briefly stated, these acts include:

(1) obtaining naturalization in a foreign state (Sec. 349 (a) (1) INA);

(2) taking an oath, affirmation or other formal declaration to a foreign state or its political subdivisions (Sec. 349 (a) (2) INA);

(3) entering or serving in the armed forces of a foreign state engaged in hostilities against the U.S. or serving as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer in the armed forces of a foreign state (Sec. 349 (a) (3) INA);

(4) accepting employment with a foreign government if (a) one has the nationality of that foreign state or (b) a declaration of allegiance is required in accepting the position (Sec. 349 (a) (4) INA);



Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco on Wed Jan 10th, 2007 at 09:21:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In practice it is very difficult to lose your US citizenship, short of a sworn statement of renunciation performed at a US consulate. Even in this case they might monitor your financial transactions if they think that your renouncing for tax reasons.

Even if you want to they could say "sorry, I don't think so"...

In the other cases cited, if the government decides to take it away, one can say that you had no intention, in performing said action, of renouncing anything.

by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Thu Jan 11th, 2007 at 12:45:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you, and no problem with the US, it's been well established.
by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Thu Jan 11th, 2007 at 12:47:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's kind of complicated. Many of Serbs are recently planning on going back to Serbia, some even went back, and some even managed to come back here from going back there...if you know what I mean. People from first generation of immigrants NEVER stop dreaming of going back...not many of them actually manage to live there indefinitely. I have aunty who has spent some 35 years or more in Sweden working and now when she got her well deserved pension she spends 6 months in Belgrade and 6 months in Stockholm. And it's not about money all though her pension would be reduced a little bit if she moved permanently from Sweden. She pays a hell a lot of the money to have her apartment in Stockholm...She is planning on settling in Belgrade permanently but every 6 months she just says: "I have to go HOME to Stockholm to rest a little bit ".She'll probably die somewhere on the road between Stockholm and Belgrade as she still drives that route at 75 years of age.
Here in Australia I know many people that spent last 40  years or so here and are pensioners now and they are planning every 2 years to go back to live there. They can still have their state pensions abroad (I am not talking superannuation) reduced a little bit. This will definitely not be available for our generation when we are 65...they are already talking about it. Well those pensioners go to Serbia to make things done for their coming back, they stay there for 6 months and when they come back they say "No way...I can't  live there" .After about a year they start planning for going back again. I can't listen to their story any more...they are torn people. I keep telling people that it does not matter what country is in case people rarely can adapt to different circumstances after living somewhere/anywhere for longer time. It would be the same if an Australian lived long enough in UK or USA (all though we are talking similar culture and language here). I am not talking about younger people, all though not even big percentage of young people are adventures. Americans, and lately Australians are used to situation that they follow job opportunities rather then staying with family and friends but that's because these are big countries. Lately globalization will make more and more people use to that situation ...
As for me I don't know what's going to happen with us. I have 3 citizenships and I respect all of them. I've been through a lot, I was stack in war and crises , communism , capitalism , dictatorship , kind of democracy that now looks a little bit false for me...For me it doesn't matter any more , cause as professional my husband may get a job through out the globalize world and we still can go here and there. But I wanted my children and grandchildren to have a choice if God forbid they come to those situations as we had to go through...
PS Follow closely what is happening with laws about dual citizenship , I just recently found out that if  we were to take another citizenship up till 2002 we would lose Australian citizenship. We were not aware of this fact. Now it's changed and we are free to go for another one...ha-ha...just joking.


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Thu Jan 11th, 2007 at 08:42:10 AM EST
That sound normal for returning emigrants, especially those who have been away a long time. I can't help a wry expression at some of the Poles here professing that they're going to return "someday" - even after they buy houses and start raising families.

Now, mind you, I guess those that return fairly young might make it - theres been a fair bit of return to Ireland, though lots of those were returning from the UK, which is different: they weren't all that far away to start with. My parents returned in their 30s and adapted fine. My aunt returned after a full working life in the UK and didn't.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jan 11th, 2007 at 09:18:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have an aunt who got Irish citizenship through her grandparents. She owns a home in Ireland and spends several months a year there, I believe she intends to move there full time eventually. From what I have heard it was a fairly painless process to get her citizenship approved, it did take a good year or so to get it all done though.  
by Jett on Thu Jan 11th, 2007 at 07:58:07 PM EST


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