Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.

Where the jobless go...

by afew Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 04:42:06 AM EST

An exchange between Paul Spencer and Drew Jones the other day sent me looking at John Williams' Shadow Government Statistics site to see how he justified 12% unemployment in the US.

Shadow Government Statistics: 1. Employment and Unemployment Reporting

Up until the Clinton administration, a discouraged worker was one who was willing, able and ready to work but had given up looking because there were no jobs to be had. The Clinton administration dismissed to the non-reporting netherworld about five million discouraged workers who had been so categorized for more than a year. As of July 2004, the less-than-a-year discouraged workers total 504,000. Adding in the netherworld takes the unemployment rate up to about 12.5%.

I've been to Williams' site before and left disappointed, because he ain't saying much unless you pay him $175 for his newsletter. And I don't think he's helping us much here either. I tried, all the same, adding in 5 million discouraged workers to the 2004 unemployment numbers: it doesn't take the unemployment rate to 12.5%, but to 8.8%. Though that doesn't mean Williams is all wrong. A couple of years ago we had Paul Krugman and Brad De Long discussing this with a reference to a paper by Katharine Bradbury of the Boston Fed that made some noise.

There are other reasons too why I think "stellar" US employment numbers are not as good as they look, but this is a good one to pick at first.


A word first on the unemployment rate (groan? no...:-)), which is one of those Soundbite Statistics, like GDP growth, that the conventional wisdom takes for the word of God and most people are impressed by without understanding them.

The unemployment rate is based on the notion of the labour market, the supply side of which is composed of those who offer their labour, whether they currently have a job or are seeking one. This group, employed and job-seekers, make up what's called the labour force. The unemployment rate is the percentage of job-seekers in the labour force. That is, job-seekers divided by (employed plus job-seekers). The rest of the working-age population doesn't enter into the reckoning.

We've kicked the unemployment rate around here quite a bit in the past, and decided it's a fairly dodgy indicator. It can be manipulated (witness the recent case in France of a tussle between the government and the national statistics institute, INSEE, over the improvement in the UR brought about by the national employment agency striking job-seekers off their rolls) or influenced by social support systems that withdraw job-seekers from the labour market (long-term sickness, disability, lone-parent benefits are examples). A better indicator would appear to be the employment-population ratio (or employment rate), that gives the percent of people employed within the working-age population.

Not In Labour Force

To illustrate this - and throw some light on the "discouraged workers" syndrome - let's have Laurent GUERBY's now-famous point about the employment rate and the unemployment rate, now updated (though it goes on being true over the years) :

According to the OECD's Statistical Annex to the Employment Outlook, 2007, Table C, p252, the employment rate (employment/population ratio) and the unemployment rate for men between 25 and 54 years of age in 2006 is given as:

CountryEmployment RateUnemployment Rate
France86.7%7.6%
United Kingdom87.8%4.2%
United States87.3%3.6%

This is a demographic one would expect to have a high employment rate, and in fact it's quite high in all three countries, with little difference in the rates. But the unemployment rate in the UK and US... is half that of France. How can that be, if the proportion of employed people is similar? A hint lies in another line in the OECD table: the Labour Force Participation Rate (that's the ratio of the labour force to the working-age population) is 91.7% in the UK and only 90.6% in the US, while it's 93.8% in France. Take those 2% difference in the UK and add them to the UR, and you get 6.2%; for the US, it's 3% to add, giving a UR of 6.6%. Suddenly the French unemployment rate doesn't look so out of line...

Those are numbers, but what does this mean in human terms? It means that people with (often long-term) unemployment problems leave the labour force and move into the inactive or "not in labour force" (NILF) population. This may happen as a result of discouragement (the perception that there are no jobs to be had) and/or of the way social benefits are organised - sickness benefits, for example, may be a refuge for the long-term unemployed, as has been conclusively shown is the case in the UK, where, rather than a bug, it has turned out to be a feature, keeping several percentage points off the unemployment rate and allowing New Labour to claim they have given the country a full-employment economy.

The US is definitely one of the countries that, according to the OECD, have a comparatively high rate of sickness/disability benefit recipients of working age. This chart has not been belied since the OECD drew it up two years ago:


click to enlarge

In the US, working-age recipients of Disability Insurance Benefit (Title II) have risen 50% in the last ten years, to reach, in 2006, 6.8 million. At the same time, (in December 2005) 4.3 m disabled adults received means-tested Supplementary Security Income. According to the Social Security Administration, there's an overlap of about a million SSI recipients among DI recipients, so, in the aggregate, I think we're looking at about 10 m working-age recipients of some form of disability benefit. To what extent or in what proportion that number covers hidden long-term unemployment, it's beyond me to say. The 50% increase I mentioned above is, in numbers, 2.3 million. An MIT working paper from Autor and Duggan (2002) studies the rise in disability benefits (uncannily like those in the UK) and suggests they account for "two thirds of a percentage point" missing from the unemployment rate. Studies in the UK suggest that almost half the recipients of Incapacity Benefit could be considered as long-term unemployed who have given up on the labour market. Applying that yardstick here (but can we?) would give us 4 to 5 million. Bradbury in her Boston Fed paper linked to above estimates at from 1.6 to 5 million the numbers that have withdrawn from the labour market. In terms of the unemployment rate, there are from two-thirds to one to three additional percentage points there.

When I say uncannily like those in the the UK I'm thinking that the easing-up of restrictions and the improvement of benefits related to sickness and disability happened under Thatcher and Reagan. If you're moving towards services esp. financial, and doing away with manufacturing because you want it done elsewhere in the world for a lot cheaper, you're clearly going to have a low-skilled labour problem. Don't let it be said you've created unemployment, just dump the problem into the sickness and disability limbo, and claim you've solved the unemployment problem. Not a bug, a feature.

What Working-Age Population?

What we've seen shows that the unemployment rate is a statistical construct that is very sensitive to the way the population is divvied up into different groups. Above we saw the unemployment rate go down when people move into the "Not In Labour Force" group. But that group is at least counted as part of the working-age population. There's another group that, though of working age, is not counted as part of that population: the military and institutional population. Employment stats are built on the civilian, non-institutional population. In other words, (roughly speaking), soldiers and prisoners are set aside and do not count in labour statistics. If all countries had a similar proportion of their population in the military or in stir, that would have little effect on comparative statistics. But the relative size of military and prison populations do differ from country to country.

Active troop levels in the US run to around 1.4 million, or 0.48% of total population. According to the US Bureau of Justice Statistics, there were 2.3 million persons held in State or Federal prisons and local jails at the end of 2005 (about 0.77% of total population).

Comparisons with the UK and France are set out below (numbers in thousands):

CategoryUSUKFrance
Military level1,400190259
Military %0.48 %0.31 %0.43 %
Prison numbers2,3007563
Prison %0.77 %0.14 %0.09 %
Mil + Prison %1.25 %0.45 %0.52 %

These are percentages of the total population. In terms of the working-age population, 15-64 (as standardised by OECD), the percentages are: US 1.94 % - UK 0.7 % - France 0.8 %. There's little difference between Britain and France (the French gendarmerie being military accounts for it), but there's a gap of well over a percentage point with the US.

That generous one-point gap works out at 2 million persons of working age set apart from the labour statistics : predominantly young, low educational qualification, and male.

According to Loïc Wacquant, in a 2006 Berkeley Institute of Governmental Studies paper:

the penal system contributes directly to regulating the lower segments of the labor market <...> the carceral apparatus helps to "fluidify" the low-wage sector and artificially depresses the unemployment rate by forcibly subtracting millions of unskilled men from the labor force. It is estimated that penal confinement shaved two full percentage points off of the U.S. jobless rate during the 1990s. Indeed, according to Bruce Western and Katherine Beckett, when the differential between the incarceration level of the two areas is taken into account, the United States posted an unemployment rate higher than the average for the European Union during eighteen of the twenty years between 1974 and 1994, contrary to the view propagated by the adulators of neoliberalism and critics of "Eurosclerosis."

Wacquant is French, (so that explains it), but Western and Beckett are probably the best-known American specialists of the question. As to my own rough calculations, if all those two million unskilled males had been in the labour force in the unemployed category, the unemployment rate for 2006 would have risen to 6.1 % from 4.6 % (OECD). Of course, many of them might find themselves in the NILF category, and some would get an official job. Whatever their effect on the unemployment rate, they would certainly, by increasing the denominator of the working-age population from which they are currently excluded, bring down the employment rate (employed / working-age population), by as much as a percentage point.

Second part tomorrow: What the jobful get...

Poll
Was the real US unemployment rate in 2006:
. 4.6 % (OECD) 0%
. 5 % 0%
. 6 % 8%
. 7 % 8%
. 8 % 8%
. more? 43%
. Who cares, they just lie to us anyway 21%
. Have you got a recipe for Velveeta Clam Dip? 8%

Votes: 23
Results | Other Polls
Display:
Here you know a lot of stuff.. and my head does not explode..

Being employed is something objective... teh question is how we measure it.a. nd how e compare..

I mean.. if we agree ona definition it should be clear hat the number is...

the problem as always.. is how do you count those that do not fit your image... numbers would be ok but interpretations not...

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 at 03:20:12 PM EST
is a reality, but the quality of the job is another matter.

Having a 20 hour/week job spread over two mornings and two evenings in the week is a "job", but the quality of life that goes with it can be quite varied.

Having benefits or not can change the picture.

Needing to pay for childcare or not changes the picture too.

... and so on.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 at 03:28:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Absolutely...

But I would be ahppy enough if at least the raw data would be unbiased.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 at 03:42:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the best you can do is figure out the total number of person-hours worked per year and the total payroll, and still you won't account for the underground economy, of course.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 at 06:26:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Total annual hours worked is the ultimate measure of employment, but it's just as hard to observe and measure.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 02:11:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Grey" economy is a big problem because its volume vary a lot between countries (for example, it is currently much higher in the eastern European countries). But it is by definition not measurable.

The best way to have an accurate measure of the employment rate would be to calculate it in full-time equivalent jobs.

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 03:57:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmm, and what happens when you have two countries like France and the UK, the former with a 35-hour law and the latter with an exemption from the 48-hour maximum in the European Working time directive? "Full-time equivalent" is not a good measure. Average number of hours worked per person per week is better.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 04:40:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Depends on your point of view: is working a large number of hours a good or a bad thing? If I can support a decent, comfortable level of life on  twenty hours a week am I better off than if I work 35 hours or not?

The whole debate about employment is tied up with different framings. The standard framing is that low numbers of people working is a bad thing because it means that the economic resources of the country are being under-utilised. From the point of view of individuals the picture is very different.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 04:51:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I beg to differ. First, we are measuring employment and, as Colman says, if a full-time job allows to earn decent wages (at least the minimum wage), it doesn't matter if it's 35 hours or more.

Second measuring the hours worked is tricky, because not all the real hours worked are recorded and overtime is not taken into account in some countries.  

And only the hours worked per year make sense, because you have a wide spectrum of working time schemes, some of them making people work 50 hours a week in summer and 20 in winter, or any other combination (and, believe me, there are many of them!).

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 06:12:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Then what matters is the ratio of payroll to living wage, right?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 06:39:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the useful measures from a democratic point of view are:

  1. Median disposable income, and standard deviation
  2. Median free time per week and annual holiday allowances
  3. A much more vague notion of work fulfillment.

If you can create jobs which offer all three, unemployment becomes very unattractive and will inevitably shrink.

From the plutocratic point of view the useful measures are:

  1. Financial productivity and 'added value'
  2. Time in work (on the assumption that more work means more value created - which is a silly assumption, but a popular one)

Those two views don't see compatible, and I don't see how they can meet in the middle without a lot of pushing and shouting.

The irony is that disposable income and leisure time are two of the biggest drivers of individual spending, and an economy which is strong in both has a good chance of being strong in more traditional ways.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 08:21:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's a very detailed table in a recent Conseil d'Analyse Economique report. I have a photocopy in front of me, but need to dig up the report to get an electronic version and I'll post that when I can (but cannot now wand will be out this afternoon).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 05:38:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you mean Artus, Cahuc, Zylberberg on Work time, income, employment, it's here.

But it's long and I haven't found the table you mention.

And I also don't think there's a final word on annual hours worked. And wouldn't trust that report to deliver it, anyway.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 06:03:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Have found the table, p. 20.

Mostly it looks solid enough. It shows, however, 100 more hours a year per employee worked in the UK than in France. The justification for this is in Item 4, where about a hundred hours difference is made on the basis of RTT (Work Time Reduction in which employees catch up on extra time done in other weeks or periods).

The footnote to this says the European Union Labour Force Survey data understated RTT and were corrected. (No further explanation).

Sources are cited as (mostly) EULFS and calculations by the authors. The latter obviously refers to the RTT hours, but no calculations are offered.

In this way the report avoids the conclusion that annual work hours in France and the UK are roughly similar.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 08:21:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
When I was working my schedule was 4 days on, 1 off, 3 on, 1 off, 4 days on, 1 off.  

Swing weekends, and I only got two days off in a row twice a month, which all compounds to make you feel as though you never leave work.  To top it off, they made us work holidays, incuding Christmas.

I don't think that the extent to which the "flexibility" that creative scheduling gives employers power over their workers lives far in excess of anything appropriate in a democracy is fully understood unless you've lived it.  

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 at 09:06:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well said. With only one, unpredictable day off work, my experience is:

a) You go slowly mad.
b) It's virtually impossible to take care of "normal life" beyond the basics. You end up with "no life outside of work."

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 05:41:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Being employed is something objective... By the standards of the ILO, used by all the national stats agencies in their Labour Force Surveys (including the daddy of them all, the US Current Population Survey), being employed is having done one hour's paid work in the previous fortnight. That opens up the field...
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 at 04:57:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've mentioned before the amusingly precarious nature of freelance work - technically self-employed, but practically more like temping. (Although if you do consultancy it's very well paid temping.)

Also 'proper' temping removes people from the unemployment registers but much of the time can't be counted as a 'proper' job.

Although economically the concept of unemployment misses the point. Many people with full time jobs are unproductive time-servers who are effectively on corporate benefits - they turn up, write a few emails, sit in a few meetings, but wouldn't really be missed if they disappeared.

E.g. I can think of one company which makes 3D modelling and animation software. Every year or so they send me an update for review, which comes with:

A shiny presentation gimmick
A big pack full of paper in plastic binders, most of which no one reads
Special preview CD-Rs with pre-release software

The PR company that handles their account puts all of these packs together by hand. The preview copies always appear at least four weeks after they say they will. And the preview registration process never works.

So... I always download a cracked copy from the filesharing networks - the finished product is always available there, even if the PR people don't have it - and use that to write the review.

So what are these people for, exactly? They're contributing to GDP, but they're not doing anything that's any practical use to anyone.

Other people are frantically overemployed, doing the work of two or more people and putting in very long hours.

And there's also corporate puritanism which assumes that if you're not in the office for ten hours a day you're not pulling your weight, no matter how much of a contribution you actually make.

Even when people are being productive, it's often toxic productivity - selling more useless crap to people who don't need it and can't afford it.

The tyrannosaurus on the table is the fact that the concept of work is broken. The idea of working a set routine is madness. Many of the jobs people do are madness. Many of them would be happier and more productive doing other things.

But it's taboo to even suggest a restructuring which might free up some time outside of 'economic productivity' and also give people a chance to contribute in more spontaneous, self-directed and useful ways.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 at 06:52:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Have you read "The Living Dead" by David Bolchover?
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 05:43:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
so this weeks statement

BBC NEWS | UK | 'Tougher' work tests for disabled

New incapacity benefit tests are to be introduced, which ministers say will mean fewer sick and disabled people will qualify for being unable to work.

Work and Pensions Secretary Peter Hain says the changes, introduced next year, will end "sick-note Britain".

might just have the effect of increasing the number of unemployed temporarily, before reclassifying people permanently out of the workforce so they do not have to be paid any benefits?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 at 03:28:39 PM EST
This is infuriating. I'm sure that there are a number of fraudsters who need catching.

I am also sure there are a number of disabled people who would like to work, but can't get a job because disabled people are discriminated against to the extent that they are twice as likely to be unemployed as non disabled people in the UK.  That it will take at least 80 years to close the gender pay gap but at the current rate we will never reach equality for disabled people in society.  So let's push them further into poverty while doing nothing more to change society so that disabled people who are able to work, can get a job. And no, they don't all have to work in Remploy factories.

And what is going to be done for people who have medical conditions that fluctuate, or don't always seem apparently obvious to GPs or 'specialists' who don't believe in things like ME or fibromyalgia?  What about them?  

What about creating change in the way the labour market  works so that people who need to work flexibly, part time, or job share, can do so without stigma and without being assigned to the rubbish dump of jobs nobody else will do at shitty levels of pay that aren't enough to live adequately on yet still are enough to disqualify individuals from getting benefits.  What about them?

You want to end sick note Britain, you don't do that by taking benefits off people who need them (and believe me that is happening already).  Where is the investment in health promotion, the drive to change culture, to regulate against junk food being advertised, to keep children in school over breaktimes so they can't run off to the chippy, providing better cycle lanes and access to leisure facilities, better education on active living and healthy eating, clinics for earlier diagnosis and prevention, GP lists that don't keep closing to new patients... ARGH.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 at 05:04:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You're right when you're talking about disabled people. But the benefits have been used for twenty-odd years now to shove the long-term unemployed out of sight (not that the long-term unemployed don't have perfectly understandable health problems). It's not a case of rooting out fraudsters, or it'd be the government that'd need rooting out.

So, of course, there can be ambiguity with disabled people who would really like to find work.

All the rest of your rant, you know I agree with...

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 at 05:15:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is part of the slow roll-out of their master-plan to get the IB people back to work. But they go at it fairly cautiously...

Would they just chuck people out there with no means of support? If they thought they could get away with it. But paying IB sweeps everything neatly under the carpet. And the capitalists don't need the "native" underclass, they've got all the immigrants they want, young guys who'll shut up, knuckle under and do the job with no nonsense about social benefits. Globalisation works in a number of wonderful ways.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 at 05:06:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

During the 1980's I lived in a steel town while the furnaces and works were being reduced to scrap metal and rubble. The ammount of times the DHSS tried to strong-arm me into getting my doctor to sign me off on the sick was untrue. I remember at the time, it was reckoned that at least 1.5 million people had been moved over out of the unemployment rolls in the UK.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 at 06:17:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not a bug, a feature.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 02:16:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
An excellent, excellent diary.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 at 03:28:46 PM EST
Thank'ee, Squire.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 at 05:07:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Heh!

"When the abyss stares at me, it wets its pants." Brian Hopkins
by EricC on Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 at 06:10:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would request that you crosspost this to Daily Kos.  

People understand that the economy is far from the paradise that the offical numbers would have you believe, but there's little understanding of the reasons why the offical unemployment numbers are not comparable between the US and France.

And hence the French model becomes a recipe for massive unemployment in the minds of the American masses.   C'est la vie.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 at 09:13:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree strongly- whether or not the diary is able to get past the blinders, it's still a very good one that sheds light on an important subject- not just the ways in which different data-selection and category definitions change the picture, but on the obvious political advantages to be gained by this.
Americans need to know HOW the books get cooked, in order to reverse-engineer the BS to get better info.

Capitalism searches out the darkest corners of human potential, and mainlines them.
by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 06:17:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If the stats actually specified who was included and who wasn't in their definition of unemployment, then we'd know what they meant without having to go off on a long investigation to work it out and still not be quite sure.

Great diary, afew.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 at 05:07:13 PM EST
Thanks, unfortunately I have to put it up at the very moment all the Americans are lying bloated with turkey and alcohol and VCD and are incapable of as much as twitching a mouse.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 at 05:22:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In that case, it can be front paged when they have all recovered!
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 at 05:27:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not true.

I am sitting here bloated with Ham, alcohol, sweet potatos, green beans, blueberry pie, alcohol, eggnog with rum, and coffee.  Now I'm about to have an after-dinner Amaretto.

Then I'll have some more alcohol.

BUT I CAN STILL TWITCH A MOUSE!

(What's a VCD, anyhow?  Video Compact Disk?)

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 at 07:03:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
having eaten all of that, and reclining after, czan you see the monitor over your belly?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 at 07:10:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why else do you think 'The Big Guy in the Sky' ... -> GOD <- (hisself) invented periscopes?



She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 at 07:29:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
FEAR MY MOUSE!

Got to go. Watching an Andy Hardy movie.

"When the abyss stares at me, it wets its pants." Brian Hopkins

by EricC on Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 at 07:17:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Velveeta Clam Dip - has that alcohol addled your brain or something? Have you not been paying attention to these important conversations we have been having about cheese products?

Is there any blueberry pie left, can I have some please?

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 at 07:22:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ye gods!  The FP'ers can sneak around and break the confidentiality of the polls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One piece of blueberry pie:

as a bribe.

(Not only is this trampling on afew's diary ... I've got to go.)

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Nov 22nd, 2007 at 07:37:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, you outed yourself there!  I have no idea if/how to see who voted in which category. But cheers for the pie.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 05:35:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As In Wales says, VCD = Velveeta Clam Dip. (Well-known American Thanksgiving treat).
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 02:23:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for this excellent and useful diary, Afew! I think we should turn it into a LTE.

However, to have the broad picture, we should look at the employment rate by age group (15-25; 25-54; 54-64). It would further demonstrate the bias of the unemployment rate.

For example, we should take into account that, in France, for the 54-64 age group, early retirement contributes to the reduction of the unemployment rate whereas the employment rate is very low.

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 03:49:27 AM EST
"Shadow government statistics", a theme that is becoming  mainstream.
http://carolynbaker.net/site/content/view/147/

Is every endeavor of human life fixed is such a way as to keep the peasants stupid and docile.

by Lasthorseman on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 07:00:02 AM EST
... he was probably referring to the impact on the real unemployment rate, U6, rather than the headline unemployment rate, U3. Since U6 includes discouraged workers, as well as unemployment of part-time workers seeking full time work, it is directly affected by a change in the definition of discouraged workers.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 10:14:41 AM EST
He may be, in which case his expression is unclear.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 11:07:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... it seems likely.

U-6 Total unemployed, plus all marginally attached workers, plus total employed part time for economic reasons, as a percent of the civilian labor force plus all marginally attached workers.

Oct06 7.6%
Oct07 7.9%

Table A-12.  Alternative measures of labor underutilization


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 11:24:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
U-6 in November 2004 (year he's referring to) was 9.1%.

Do they recalculate the Labour Force as denominator (including the extra U-6 categories) or use the (LF = employed + U-3 unemployed) as denominator?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 12:37:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... that's what "as a percent of the civilian labor force plus all marginally attached workers" means ... U3 is ""as a percent of the civilian labor force".


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 01:52:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the point on the prison population is a better one than the military, as those in prison would tend to enjoy less in skill than soldiers.  Veterans are often liked by the private sector (even setting aside the veterans' preference, which may or may not apply to private-sector jobs), because they bring a lot of technical expertise.  They tend to be mechanically inclined, in my experience, and they're often kids who joined for money needed to pursue degrees.

That said, let's be honest:  There are a lot of military folks who are just nuts, especially as we've seen the Pentagon lower the bar on who may enter.  (Felons are alright, so long as they're not gay.)

The prison group should really be divided into two categories:  Those in for serious crimes (murder, rape, etc), and those in for petty and sometimes victimless crimes (drugs).  The US throws a lot of people in jail for really stupid reasons, consequently making them far less likely to become gainfully employed when they leave, and many in that camp would, I suspect, become gainfully employed.  They'd likely not have been rich if they'd avoided prison, but many would at least have working-class jobs that paid the bills.  Knowing quite a few people who work (or have worked) in and around the prison system, my impression is that it destroys a lot people who could've done good things.

So both are fair points, I think, and certainly if we standardized the measures we'd find the differences in unemployment much smaller and perhaps even nonexistent.  If I had to pin down a real unemployment rate with those factors in mind, I'd put it at about 6%, give or take a bit.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 12:25:06 PM EST
The point about the military is complicated, but what it really points to is the differences in economic structure between the US and (say) the UK.

To really get a handle on job market comparisons we'd have to allow for all the differences: how much of the US military is really a work programme for poor people? How much of the French free college education is about reducing the numbers of unemployed? What about the UK hiding people in disability, unnecessary workers in state supported jobs across Europe and the US. How much of the US military spending is really just supporting jobs that would be otherwise lost in key electoral districts? The Irish health system is fucked partly because there are a pile of useless admin staff scattered across the country doing make-work so that there are jobs in country towns. How does that distort the job market? To what extent?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 12:35:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I certainly agree, but if you want an example of a French distortion it would be more in the early retirement area than the 16-24 age group.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 12:41:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think most of the US military is actually made up of lower-middle-class kids -- not poor in the absolute sense, but certainly not sufficiently wealthy to write a check (or have Mom and Dad write a check) for college.  Many kids work to pay for school, but the military pays a lot more, especially taking the bonuses into account, than serving lattes at Starbucks or waiting tables.

All countries, whether inadvertently or on purpose, distort their unemployment pictures with the public sector, and we'd have to take on quite an accounting project to get the full story.

My main point was that we couldn't look at it in a static model, in which those in prison or in the military would be unemployed but for being in prison or the military.  Certainly many would be, especially among the prison population.  I don't deny that for a moment.  But many would not be.  A lot of it is simply a matter of resources being shifted one way or another -- or, in the case of prison, taking people, some who would be productive, and making them unproductive.

As always, macroeconomics doesn't lend itself to clean mathematics.  It's murky.  Better to focus on trends and how the degree of impact from different variables may affect things than to say "X means y."  It's sort of like trying to call the point at which we hit recession.  We can all see a recession coming in many cases, but when it actually hits is anybody's guess.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 01:19:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I did point out that in fact all the "extra" military and penal population wouldn't go into the unemployed category, but no doubt into NILF and some to jobs. As far as unemployment (U-3) goes, no doubt the size of the prison population and the debilitating nature of the prison experience are far more important than the military. But, even then, by way of distortion, I see this more as a reduction of the working-age population denominator.

Yes, frankly, I think macro-economic indicators (as far as I understand them), are a mess, along with methods of observation. The trouble is the big numbers are wheeled out and used to keep everyone's mind rolling on the same tracks. I think it's worth taking them apart and putting them together again to see what they're made of, and particularly identifying where and how they're made of bs, or don't mean what they're plugged to mean.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 01:50:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Much of the problem with indicators is that those who need simplicity to fool the population have it when we compare (say) GDP with medan household income.  Bush can go up to the mic and say, "GDP growth was 3.9% last quarter.  This economy is strong."  He could even do the same for average income.  It's difficult to fight him by getting into the more complex explanation of median income, and the necessary discussion of why it's a much better indicator of the typical American's financial health.

Now, if income growth is lagging for such a large number of people that the indicators clearly don't mean shit, I'd think we start to see dissatisfaction in polling on the economy.  And, indeed, that's exactly what we've seen in America.  The press hasn't understood it, but anyone who's familiar with the important numbers can tell exactly what the public is so pissed off about:  The typical American's income changes have ranged from falling to only slightly rising over the current business cycle.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 02:17:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How much of the US military spending is really just supporting jobs that would be otherwise lost in key electoral districts?

Much of it.  Especially when Congress starts talking about base closures every few years, it's primarily an issue of moving money from the fast-growing urban centers to the long-declining rural areas.  The small towns can't compete with the Philadelphias and Bostons, let alone the New Yorks, on labor supply or skill level, and they tend to be towns that were built around a single industry or even a single factory.  Now that those industries are gone, they cling to military bases.  It's basically a redistribution mechanism.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 02:06:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought about writing up a support piece for the UR part during my exchange with Drew, but my take relies too much on anecdotal evidence - plus I was primarily interested in the discussion concerning inflation rate and related/derivative stats. You have now raised the issues that belie the official numbers, but I agree with Drew that I probably would not add the military component. Of course, I wouldn't add them to the total-available-workforce, either.

Briefly on the anecdotal evidence - in the 60s and 70s the U.S. data was ingenuous, so to speak. Between the WWII-fostered U.S. economic strength and the relative naivete of the political class at that time, the statistics were simple and to-the-point. In the early 70s some left-leaning academics were estimating that the post-benefit (uncounted) group already duplicated the number of unemployed being counted in the UR - primarily UE benefits recipients. I can't cite at this date, but Chomsky and Staughton Lynd come to mind.

The second anecdotal piece comes from my experience with friends and acquaintances over the years. During recession - including recessions that aren't called recessions - I know more people on UE benefits, past UE benefits, and homeless than in better economic times. I know more people today in these categories than in quite a long time. Best that I can do for the discussion, but you seem to be carrying the ball quite well in any case.

The one thing that I will mention about Williams' company is that his predictions from last December for related economic activity in 2007 are the basis for my interest in his overall work. Until recently, I was not a subscriber, but his work pops up in his Archives after so many months, and the archives can be accessed without subscription. As soon as I saw the December piece, I decided to subscribe, partly because I am going to strongly consider his advice in the current situation.

paul spencer

by paul spencer (paulgspencer@gmail.com) on Fri Nov 23rd, 2007 at 04:01:55 PM EST
Paul, do you read Nouriel Roubini any?  He's had what seem to be some pretty right-on, but pretty scary, takes about the economy -- both national and global.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Nov 24th, 2007 at 09:55:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I hadn't heard of Roubini, but I checked your link. Certainly seems like someone with whom I would often agree. I'm going to look around the site some more. What is your connection?

paul spencer
by paul spencer (paulgspencer@gmail.com) on Sun Nov 25th, 2007 at 07:52:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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