Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.

The Next Economic Revolution: Economic Growth and the Steady State

by BruceMcF Mon Dec 31st, 2007 at 05:48:14 AM EST

Early this month I finished Justinian's Flea, which looks at the reign of Justinian the Great as the pivot between "late antiquity" and the rise of medieval Europe ... and the central role in the drama played by the Plague of Justinian, the first clearly documented outbreak of the Bubonic Plague.

Which was one more addition to the mix of things involved in my reaction (s) to the diary by Jerome a Paris, Hostility to the notion of limits to growth ... and the question of what was so special about the Industrial Revolution.

I'll start with what is normal, then with what has been peculiar in the past couple of hundred years, and then how that peculiarity must have warped our economic institutions ... and to get back to normality, we will have to unwarp them.

OK, "tell them what you are going to tell them". Check. Make it clear as mud. Check. "then tell them". That's after the fold.

Diary rescue by Migeru


Normal Economic Growth

Economic growth is normal. We have been experiencing economic growth since before we started writing about it ... given that the first writing seems to have been accounting for things in the Big Man's storehouse, and a recipe for beer, both of them early fruits of economic growth.

Indeed, at the time of Justinian, according to William Rosen in Justinian's Flea, about half the global human population were located within the conventional boundaries of the Chinese and Roman empires. It did not start out that way ... it got to be that way via economic growth.

The revolution in trade from luxuries to staples that saw Egypt emerge as the granary for Roman cities was positive sum economic growth ... it was, indeed, positive sum in precisely the Ricardian comparative advantage sense. So, too, the trade in staples in China, especially along the Grand Canal that connected the North with the South, begun in 486BCE and completed in 610CE, finally connecting with ... and therefore interconnecting ... the five major rivers of the Haihe, Huanghe (the Yellow River), Huaihe, Changjiang (the Yangtze) and Qiantangjiang.

After the cold spell that allowed the Bubonic plague to climb down from the upper Nile River Valley to the Mediterranean world, that reliance on rapid transport across the Med turned from a blessing into a curse ... and undermining Justinian the Great's reconquests of North Africa, Iberia and Italy (as recounted in Justinian's Flea) ...

... but then after the collapse of that system emerged the North Atlantic economy built on the heavy horse-drawn moldboard plough and the three-field system, and the growth that followed from that was positive sum growth as well.

Indeed, the most extensive Empire in the Americas prior to our Age of Plagues, the Inca Empire, was founded on Ricardian comparative advantage trade in staples ... but because of the extreme range of altitudes as you pass from the western coast of South America into the Andes, this trade between the coastal lowlands and the Andean highlands could ride on the back of pack animals, with the Imperial North-South road acting primarily as the Empire's information super-highway.

Waves of Normal Economic Growth

Economic growth normally proceeds in waves, as we learn how to do things better, and then put that into practice.

The learning how to do things better ... that is the continuous, ongoing process of invention, and its not what goes in waves. Its the putting inventions into practice ... that is, innovation ... that's what goes in waves.

And "Economic Revolutions"? Well, innovations come in waves, and those waves of innovations themselves come in waves of bigger innovation waves separated by less dramatic innovation waves. If you want to label the biggest wave of innovations in a particular period a Revolution, then if you look around, you will find others just as dramatic.

This much is historical observation. So, taking the Industrial Revolution, for example, it was preceded in the modern period ... that is, since the Europeans stumbled on mountains of silver in the New World and were able to buy their way into the lucrative carrying trade of richer East Asia ... by Mercantile and Agricultural revolutions that share a role in laying the foundation for modern technology.

Now, certainly it is likely to have felt "especially Revolutionary" inside England, since that was the wave of innovations that led to the reversal of the balance of trade between the Indian subcontinent and the European subcontinent, which was, in turn, the foundation for the establishment of the Raj. After all, the armies and munitions that England used to conquer India primarily originated inside India ... the power that came from England was its superior financial clout.

However, with respect to our current limits of growth, what is critical about the changes in institutional structures associated with the Industrial Revolution and later fossil fuel waves of innovation is the way that we have become dependent upon regular, annual economic growth.

Steady State Growth Versus Extensive Growth

That is, what was so distinctive about the Industrial Revolution, as opposed to the Mercantile and Agricultural revolutions (and etc.) that came most immediately before it, was not the economic growth, but the increased reliance on fossil fuels.

Technological growth, resulting from more efficient use of given material inputs by a given population, necessarily involves innovation, and so inherits the wavelike character of innovation.

Extensive growth, by contrast, requires either expansion into "virgin" territory ... to get more economic activity from more people in the economy ... or finding a way to acquire more material input per person.

Having lived for a decade in Australia, where the legal fiction of Terra Nullis had recently been overturned by the high court as a patent absurdity, I hasten to add that "virgin" territory here means a territory where a more productive technology is not yet in use ... we basically filled up the world with bands of hunter-gatherers before being forced into the more arduous work of farming, and the last human entry into a big chunk of truly uninhabited territory seems to have been the Polynesian colonization of New Zealand, during the late medieval period of Peninsular Far West Asia (or "Europe" for short).

The material "Revolution" of the Industrial Revolution and succeeding big waves of innovation has been to shift the focus of extensive growth away from expansion into new terrain and toward the plundering of the stored up energy of fossil fuels.

This permits economic growth without improved material efficiency. It also permits economic growth without the continuous necessity of conquest. Therefore, it allows economic growth to proceed on a regular annual basis, except for the occasional recessions ... provided that it is possible to acquire an every increasing material input per person, and possible to generate the effective demand for the newly produced products.

The Two Requisites for Extensive Material Growth

At one time, conventional wisdom took both requisites for ongoing extensive growth for granted ... but as a result of the Great Depression, our societies learned that effective demand could not be taken for granted (of course, some individuals understood that previously, but there is a big difference between a conclusion of individual analysis and having that knowledge sink into the structure of social institutions).

Now, we are entering a period when as societies we will discover that the material input requisite can't be taken for granted either.

However, while the macro level models of economic growth used by traditional marginalist economists focus primarily on material extensive growth, and the micro level models of economic growth used by traditional marginalist economists focus on the static gains available from exploiting un-tapped comparative advantages ... that tells us more about the limitations of traditional marginalist economics than it tells us about economic growth in the steady state.

In an ecologically sustainable steady state, we can still gain economic growth without additions in material inputs via technological progress. An ecologically sustainable steady state therefore does not imply an absence of economic growth.

However, we cannot depend upon ongoing, annual growth ... since pure technological progress requires innovation, and innovation proceeds in waves. We will have to work out way to a set of economic institutions that is compatible with zero-growth, and at the same time is able to accommodate economic growth.

Which is where we arrive at the central issue of economic justice. A central myth used by the wealthy to attempt to legitimize concentration of wealth in democratic industrial societies is that it leads to every more stuff, so that ever more crumbs will fall from the tables of the wealthy to be gobbled up by the rest of us.

This is not a politically stable legitimization in an ecologically sustainable steady state economy. What will be required for political stability during the periods of economic stability between waves of substantial economic growth? What will be required is a common folkview that the current division of what we have is fair, and that the division of the gains of economic growth, when they do show up, will also be fair.

Display:
They Tell You What You Told Them

This is a blog post rather than an essay, so at this point, rather than me telling you what I told you, you are going to tell me.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 at 10:06:26 AM EST
For now I'll just say this is a great diary.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 at 10:56:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I tis a ne xcellent diary..a  ncie vision.. a different one.. and very insightfull....

Great..
Probalby your best Bruce.. brilliant.. well moe than that it is f- brilliant.. (and tones of work behind ...)

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Mon Dec 24th, 2007 at 06:45:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
very clear writing, convincing thesis.

maybe 10% growth would be possible, without constant feeding of fossil fuels, perhaps not...

i resonate more with chris cook's estimate of 3% as being sustainable.

we are a risk-taking species, however when economics becomes conflated with gambling, we see the results.

at least with the latter these risks are born by the gambler!

we have put the cart before the horse, and we wonder why progress is so lumpy. we don't need a new cart or new horse, we 'just' need to organise systems with the right priorities.

course when we have nuke-toting religious maniacs convinced things are better this way, bumping and crashing chaotically around and around, then....

we have a major communication problem!

great diaries like this help reframe economics into a discipline with real human connection, rather than a dispassionate account of misprojected cashflows, illiquid hedgefunds, obligations to shareholders and bottom lines that are airily presented as if entirely uncoupled from real downline human consequences of pain and suffering.

economists would like to believe that if their voodoo were allowed to run its course,  one day all those subsistence agriculture >$2 p. day folks will doing a happy dance because their monsanto shares went up in value...

you can't argue rationally about this stuff, at the end of the day, either you get it or you don't, and many people are questioning the conventional wisdom, while simultaneously the aznars, berluscronys, bliars and sarkozys are trying to flim-flam the public that they can have it both ways...a fair society of human, civil rights and under-regulated (hell, even subsidised) predator capitalism as OS.

not. gonna. happen.

we're eating that particular pudding now, and rightly gagging on it.

history as acid reflux...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 at 12:15:17 PM EST
I'm sure Chris posited 4-6% as the natural "oiling the wheels", but I'm sure I'm probably misguided.  Chris?

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 at 06:24:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've never really said anything about "growth" in terms of quantity. The issue I have with it is qualitative.

I think that we have already begun a burst of growth on a scale never before seen. The key to this is the "peer to peer" connectivity of the Internet, coupled with the massive growth in intangible "Intellectual Property" and "Intellectual Capital".

The problem lies in achieving such massive "growth" in the absence of the resources of consumable materials, particularly liquid fuels, to support it. The solution must lie in developments in renewable energy and energy efficiency, coupled with a reordering of society, and particularly in the modes and costs of travel.

The enabling step is IMHO the imminent reordering - "bottom up" - of the financial system through the widespread adoption of mutualised "peer to peer" credit and new means of investing in productive assets.

Such a reordered and networked financial system carries two "costs", which are associated with growth.

Firstly, there is the cost of credit: I reckon that is probably of the order of 2%, consisting of a combination of system costs and a "natural" level of "defaults" ie the guarantee cost.

I back this up empirically by reference to the (interest-free)JAK Bank which charges a 2.5% admin fee., and the rates of interest common in "Trust Banking" before the credit bubble (typically 1.5 to 2.5%, I think)

Then there is the cost of Capital. As I have pointed out ad nauseam, we confuse "Capital" with "Credit" because we use Money as Debt. To me, "Capital" consists of property rights - "ownership" - over productive assets.

Capital assets (using this definition, which flies in the face of conventional economic definitions which conflate land with other forms of capital)) have historically consisted largely of land and buildings, but through the Industrial Revolution expanded to encompass machinery of all types.

The Intellectual Capital revolution has derived from the massive scale of the amounts of "money's worth" people are prepared to exchange for the use of "Intellectual Property" eg Microsoftware, Big Pharma and the rest.

The world is awash in Capital, ie the accumulated stock of productive assets in private and public "ownership".

This "cost" comprises a market price which has steadily reduced from about 25%pa in Babylonian times through 10% in the Middle Ages to maybe 5% at the dawn of the Industrial Revolution, and rapidly downwards since.

I reckon the actual "market price" of "risk free" capital (eg land/location rentals) is probably around 0.5% to 1.0% in real terms. The other aspect of Capital "cost" is entropy ie depreciation/ maintenance. Maybe 1 to 2%pa ?

The point I am getting to is that the explosive growth we are seeing is in large part based upon the massive growth in "Intellectual Capital".

As a case study, you only have to look at the mobile communication revolution in the developing world.

Grameen Phone is a joint venture of Norway's Telenor and Dr Yunus's Grameen Bank micro-credit operation.

The Bank made hundreds of thousands of small loans to buy "village phones", and this movement of self employed mobile phone providers employs over 250,000 people, and constitutes one of the most significant economic actors in Bangladesh today.

Telenor hoovers out far too much of the value generated (they were privatised after the JV began) but we still see the scale to which people's willingness to exchange things of value for the right to communicate at a distance is capable of causing massive "economic growth".

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Dec 24th, 2007 at 04:08:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the widespread adoption of mutualised "peer to peer" credit and new means of investing in productive assets.

"peer to peer" credit--I give you credit directly, no bank hierarchy? e-bay/paypall...but that is to buy assets--asset transferance?  "Investing"...for what reason?  For everyone's benefit?  For the benefit of both investor and the productive asset?  If the asset is productive, why does it need an investor?  And why does the investor invest--to what end?  Those are probably the wrong questions, but your sentence isn't creating an image for me--not yet.

Firstly, there is the cost of credit: I reckon that is probably of the order of 2%, consisting of a combination of system costs and a "natural" level of "defaults" ie the guarantee cost.

Yeah, 1.5% is what I understood: the difference between Nationwide's mortgage rate and their saving's rate.  So, the banking cost--the cost of "looking after the money and the transactions" is @ 2% of the cost of any money-business?

I reckon the actual "market price" of "risk free" capital (eg land/location rentals) is probably around 0.5% to 1.0% in real terms. The other aspect of Capital "cost" is entropy ie depreciation/ maintenance. Maybe 1 to 2%pa ?

Okay, I don't understand this.  Capital--e.g. land.  I want some land to grow some vegetables.  It is in a prime site, centre of town, south facing, excellent soil.  Someone else owns it.  How does me using that land cost me only 0.5-1.0%?  And 0.5-1.0% of what?  Or rated against what?  Maintenance costs--some items have unlimited life (if maintained), such as a brick structure.  Some have short lives--certain fabrics (a pair of jeans)...but okay, average maintenance costs might be 2%--that sounds low to me, though.  10%?  To maintain my bike costs over a tenth--per year--of its original value (cost of bike £180; yearly service including parts--brake pads, tyres, cables, spokes, labour costs--all for say £30)...

I don't see how the phone example...I had a look at the site, but...heh...this bear has an even smaller brain...how does Grameen demonstrate 1.5% admin costs, 1.0% asset costs, 2% maintenance costs...and then the profit--it was the profit that I thought was historically 4-6%--the profit as natural growth (not necessarily growth in resource usage--can also be growth in things we can do with the same resources)...Telenor you say hoovers out too much.  I thought "the right amount" was somewhere between 4-6%--didn't HiD once say that no investor would consider 4-6% a worthwhile rate--and that was the problem with the LLP model?  (And you pointed out that certainly some businesses--some organisations rather--are happy with 4-6% plus there are the benefits of membership--profit is "take away", but mucho busy-ness--much invention can happen "on the inside"--"for free!"--but everyone has to use money to obtain what they can't get on the inside--or even to get things on the inside, so productive asset = work = money (credit) = value over subsistence (slaves aren't paid--they are fed and housed but have no spare "profit"...ach okay...either there's some sense in what I've asked or not...and an appy crerse moose to you and Solveig!

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Mon Dec 24th, 2007 at 05:59:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the widespread adoption of mutualised "peer to peer" credit and new means of investing in productive assets.

I have succeeded in confusing you again as between Credit and Capital! Credit is "time to pay": Capital is investment in productive assets.

By "Peer to peer credit" I mean a seller of something giving a buyer "time to pay" by accepting his IOU - as opposed to a Bank's IOU.

The "Guarantee Society" facilitates this by applying a collective Guarantee which both buyer and seller contribute towards. The Bank no longer acts as middleman - taking his cut from between deposit rate and loan rate - but as a "service provider" who manages the creation of IOU's by the members.

Members do not pay "interest" but they do pay for the use of the system, and for the use of the collective guarantee. The result is essentially mutualised Banking "at cost" or on a "Not for Loss" basis.

Investment is totally different from credit, because in an investment there is no obligation to repay (although there is the possibility of "buying back" investment)

By "new means of investing in productive assets" I mean that an investor may (for instance) invest directly ("peer to peer" again) in a new wind turbine by buying (say) 50 Mega Watt/ Hours from its future production at an agreed price of (say) £50.00 per Mega/Watt Hour.

Or he may put up £10,000 and in return receive 20% of the gross revenues from a short film - if there are any revenues. The former is a new form of "Energy Debt": the latter is a new form of "Equity Share".

Re Capital etc the rate of return ON Capital and/or return OF capital (ie accumulated money or money's worth) should be commensurate with risk.

I have no problem with investors getting massive rates of return on investment, provided they are taking a risk. As with the example of a film, above, there is no reason why the investor who puts in £10,000 shouldn't rake in £100,000 or £1 million in the unlikely event of the film being a big commercial success.

But investing in a building rented by the government is a very different thing. The return is much more certain, and therefore the reward commensurately less.

My point is that people's expectations of risk-free returns have become divorced from the reality of oceans of money chasing limited investment opportunities, and the reason for this has been inflation - itself directly caused by a deficit-based economy.

The market in land - and the economies built upon it - is an incipient disaster zone in the US and UK. We need an entirely new approach to land and property finance IMHO.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Dec 24th, 2007 at 07:41:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Telenor hoovers out far too much of the value generated (they were privatised after the JV began) but we still see the scale to which people's willingness to exchange things of value for the right to communicate at a distance is capable of causing massive "economic growth".

That's an increase in economic activity, and in that particular context that is an exchange of something of value for something else of value ... and that something else of value that was not readily available in the village before.

That's economic growth.

Of course, economic growth is not an intrinsic good in and of itself ... though it is widely portrayed as such as a result of the current economic system's growth addiction ... and whether its a contribution to economic development or not is another question. However, it is certainly economic growth.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Dec 24th, 2007 at 11:34:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't use quotes as "scary"...maybe just to underscore the dubious nature of "economic growth" as enshrined in our current system and defined in the anti-Value that passes for money.

Communication is a new form of fungible "money's worth"/currency denominated in time units: I remember a former Director of Orange (UK mobile telco) telling me that their stored value cards became commonly used as currency in some countries because they held their value in a way that the official currency did not: to the extent that the Central Bank cracked down...

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Dec 24th, 2007 at 11:48:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but the quotes suggest that it is dubious whether that example is economic growth, although it undoubtedly is.

What is not only dubious but simply flat out wrong is the presumption that economic growth is an intrinsically good thing.

As in the issue of the "need" of 2% or 4% growth to oil the wheels of accumulation of productive equipment and "intellectual property". There's no intrinsic need for that. Rentals and interest are a claim on national income, with no necessity at all for them to come out of increases in national income.

Of course, in the SNA we draw a distinction between incomes drawn from ownership rights created over pre-existing natural resources, which is recorded in the national income accounts as rents, and incomes drawn from ownership rights created over produced resources for production ... plant, equipment, "intellectual property" ... which is recorded in the national income accounts as interest incomes.

However, in either case, the payments settling rental and interest obligations come out of the income flow without somehow requiring that income to have been newly created that year.

What economic growth does is simplify the payment of newly created rental and interest obligations, by allowing them to be paid without shoving to one side levels of incomes previously received by others.

Since that shoving to one side is normally accomplished by inflation, and inflation reduces the economic power of holders of contracts for the receipt of incomes of given dollar amounts, the financial sector opposes recourse to that ... and in the crudest sketch, uses their influence over central banks to threaten everyone else with recession if there is too much loss of economic power by creditors.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Dec 24th, 2007 at 12:46:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, it seems to me you said we are in a very long historical movement of economic growth. Which, in one sense, can be understood easily if we remember simple history lessons: hunter-gatherer => sedentary farmer => increased metal-working etc, ie technological revolutions, no doubt by waves. You gave an early example of rapid growth, however, due to trade, with Justinian. Which adds to the impression I've always had, that comparative advantage is more complicated than the theory, since it's never only the good that the trader wants that comes through. (Similarly, the European ports were enriched by trade in the Early Modern period, and were also decimated by imported rat-flea-bubonic plague).

Above all you said we are now in a phase that requires effective demand and material input in order to provide regular annual growth (without which our economies, and I would add our societies, appear to be in danger of ceasing to function). That the finite character of resources threatens the material input. (One might also wonder to what extent unequal distribution does not endanger the demand side).

But you say that the solution is an economy (a society, since I stubbornly refuse to separate the two) that can deal with growth or no growth. That must obviously be concerned with technological change - though here I'd want to ask where we would be steering our technology. First and foremost, I'd see a growth or no growth scenario possible through technological progress in food production (the basic material input) that ceases to diminish finite resources. This is a call for a kind of super-organic agriculture. There is enormous room here for technological change. There are other "green" activities (as suggested recently by John Edwards). And they go with a fairer distribution of wealth that would give the "folkview" that the dole-out is fair (nothing like fairness for seeming fair!) - and would maintain stable demand.

Great diary, Bruce, thanks.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 at 03:54:52 PM EST
But you say that the solution is an economy (a society, since I stubbornly refuse to separate the two) that can deal with growth or no growth.

I'm an American Institutionalist, as much as I'm anything along 'ist lines, so I define economics as the study of the material provisioning of society, "the economic" as whatever aspects of society are involved in that, and "the economy" as social systems, if any, that are dominated by economic aspects of society.

So society > economic > economy

I understand that traditional marginalist economists that make up the current mainstream of my profession have a tendency to lapse into:

society < economic = economy

... but that understanding does not mean that I sympathise with that.

The use of the term "economic" with respect to economic growth here is because the economy is a subsystem, where it exists as a reasonably coherent subsystem at all. The idea of economic growth itself involves far more ambiguity than most marginalists seem to recognise, since they so commonly draw their shifts of production possibility frontiers as being pure inward and outward shifts where it seems to me that it is more common for production possibility frontiers to shift outward in some directions and inward in others at the same time.

Going from there to saying whether there has been a growth or decline of a society as a whole presumes far too much quantification of qualities ... I am confident that the challenge is beyond my capacities.

With respect to those I have read who seem to think the challenge lies within their capacities ... on what I can ken, it appears to be beyond their capacities as well.

In any event, the problem of a society that can accommodate one or more periods of substantial economic growth in a generation, while also being able to comfortably cope with the lack of economic growth for an indefinite number of years in a row within that same period ... that's a bigger problem than the one of the economic-subsystem-of-society, aka economy, begin able to cope with that.

For the simple reason that having a social capacity alway requires having the economic capacity plus more.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 at 05:53:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Excellent, thanks!

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 at 06:27:21 PM EST
by collapse, as the earth is exploited and destroyed by the "new technologies."  

If you want sustainability--and not just the Walmart Synthetic Substitute TM--you have to create balance, which means NO NET OVERALL GROWTH.  

"Primitive" peoples do this by creating a system of feedback loops with the ecology.  They do NOT try to maximize population--rather they SEEK stability--at the same time they tread lightly on available, renewable resources by minimizing consumption to what is "needed."  Taboos against taking  more than what is necessary are heartfelt, religous, and strict.  They don't play games with this.  

If you try to play games, what happens is clear.  It is  not a secret.  For example, in our own cultural heritage we have the very direct (Greek) myth of Erischthon. To these ancient warnings based on hard experience we can now add the lessons of modern archaeology as plainly exemplified in the history of Easter Island.  

Medieval Europe achieved something like balance by letting war and disease clear out the perpetual overgrowth.  While an interesting and varied period of history, it hardly counts as an EASY period of history.  

You may like some approaches to balance better than others, but without balance--that is, WITH GROWTH--you inevitably, inexorably, overshoot and crash and burn.  

We are doing that now.  That's what peak oil, global warming, and the neolib/neocon looting out of the world under "globalization" are all about.  

We have already entered the zone of collapse.  Amelioration may still be possible:  The available scenerios for human survival post-collapse very widely in quality.  

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 at 06:31:40 PM EST
If you want sustainability--and not just the Walmart Synthetic Substitute TM--you have to create balance, which means NO NET OVERALL GROWTH.

No net growth of what? No net growth of material inputs ... and given that we are already beyond ecological sustainability, there is first a requirement for a reduction in material inputs down to sustainable levels, and then no net growth of material inputs from there.

However, that does not imply not net economic growth. We can increase our capabilities to provide material support for social activities without increasing our material inputs, provided that the increase in our capabilities is the result of pure technological progress, and not the result of extensive growth.

However, as the diary notes, our present economic system is dependent on ongoing, annual growth, and that will not be in the offing if we are relying on pure technological growth alone.

So, yes, the Wal*mart model is doomed, with one of the principle questions we have to face being how many of us it takes down with it.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 at 06:44:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
wow, you put it so well gaianne...

seen this way, growth seems a conceit, a hubristic assumption.

an arrogant presuming of eternal windfall.

rather than the happy accident it more probably is!

the bigger the front, the bigger the back...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Dec 23rd, 2007 at 10:46:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not at all. Net growth is certainly possible. If I make a new kind of wind turbine that increases the output (for the same resource input), then I have growth. If I make a new transmission technology that reduces loss in the cables, then I have growth. If I develop a new kind of circuitry that allows me to use only half as much copper in my transistors as previously and still get the same output, I have growth.

It seems to me that we are heading into an era in which the cost of resources dwarf the cost of labour. This was also the case before the industrial revolution. During the industrial revolution and the following century, the cost of resources became first comparable and then (in the industrialised world) negligible to the cost of labour, hence the 'don't mend' culture.

I expect that we will see a resurgence in recycling and repair as resources become scarce compared to labour.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Dec 24th, 2007 at 12:45:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Recycling and re-use is an important part of this ... a 0.25 recycling rate extends a material supply by 33% ... a 0.5 recycling rate extends a material supply by 100% ... a 0.8 recycling rate extends a material supply by 400%.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Dec 24th, 2007 at 11:27:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
for a very good reason, and not because they avoid improvements.  

When you improve a technology--really improve it: more results from less inputs, with a smaller resource footprint--you get a period of growth that is STRICTLY TEMPORARY.  It is transient.  It is simply the process of moving from a less abundant, steady state economy, to a more abundant one.  Once you have done that, growth stops.  

Let us hypothesize you live in a desert.  It does not support much life, and life is hard.  Imagine you find a new technology, one that allows you to catch and store water from a wadi and then irrigate the land--somehow without creating water-logging or salinity, perhaps due to a drip-irrigation method that sweeps the salinated water downward and then back into the wadi to be removed with the occasional rain.  

You plant fruit trees.  More and easier life becomes possible.  The fruit trees themselves increase humidity, raising rainfall and increasing the available water.  You build out with more fruit trees, and all the life that they support, and want themselves, in order to flourish.  

Growth, right?  But only for a short time.  You are changing the local climate to one that is wetter and more favorable, and using the increased water to build a more abundant life, but when you reach the limits (which you will) the build-out stops.  It must stop; worse, if you try to keep it going you will overbuild, redesertify, kill your existing fruit trees and return to the barren and meager scrub.  

When we revisit the facts of North American ecology--a fair amount was recorded and written down--it becomes clear that the "primitive" people before the European invasion had precisely evolved a high technology of practical ecological management, that maintained high levels of plant and animal life with very little effort.  This translated into abundant food and raw materials, which, however, were deliberately utilized sparingly.  When the Europeans arrived they immediately began predating to destruction, with forests and game animals (and fish) showing the effects earliest.  We are now half way through the process of turning the eastern half of North America back into desert--or more precisely, scrubland.  

There is a hint here, and a warning:  Life support on this scrub will be low.  We will not return to a pre-invasion ecology, at least not for some millenia.  First we will fall--far BELOW pre-invasion levels--because the resources have been destroyed and are no longer there.  

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Thu Dec 27th, 2007 at 12:52:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
growth seems a conceit, a hubristic assumption.  

I believe you have, very concisely, gone to the next step:  How it happens.  A religious delusion of taking without giving back.

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Mon Dec 24th, 2007 at 04:37:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
maybe for so long nature seemed a bottomless well of abundance, we just can't get our heads around reality being different than what we have so long conceived it to be.

i used to gaze at the ocean, drawing peace from its vast wildness, feeling secure that here was a force that was so pure and huge we would never fuck it up, now i know better, and worry about that.

what is especially frustrating/enticing about all this, is the feeling that the only way we can experience balance and sustainability is by becoming different people, more pacific, less predatory.

vegetarianism, or at least more than a token move in that direction, really could and does make a difference to this, on both micro and macro levels.

just as important as changing our light bulbs, imo.

perhaps religion (not spirituality!) has contributed to this turn of events by encouraging fatalism and abnegation of responsibility, handing over our power to self-proclaimed 'experts'.

if we make it through this coming bottleneck as a species, i think it will entail rethinking who we are right down to the core, and thre letting go of much we have become attached to, and worse, felt entitled to.

it might be the biggest fall we have ever taken, but it will be far from the first, and some will carry forward some of the essence of what we suffered and learned the hard way, into a future we can only wonder about.

in other words, those it doesn't kill will be made of much stronger stuff, and when and if the dust settles, our memories will become very important.

so i'm trying to take a good, long, hard look at what's around me and trying to engrave it as deeply as i can....

very grateful for your voice here, though sometimes it's not what i thought i wanted to read!

there's something crystalline about how you put things.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Dec 24th, 2007 at 07:38:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... is precisely a folkview that comes from living inside our growth-addicted societies.

Of course, when a group of cells in our body starts claiming an entitlement to grow, irrespective of the ultimate consequences, we call that "cancer".

Pure technological growth is the legacy of the invention and innovation we have inherited from previous generations. After all, most invention is a novel recombination of already existing material, techniques, etc. ... sometimes with a little bit of new discovery added, sometimes just the novel recombination of what already existed ... but the pace of invention accelerates, and has been accelerating over the past 20,000 years at least, because the more each generation inherits, the more new combinations each generation can contribute to the legacy.

And that is the primary reversion of social philosophy that is required ... both with respect to technology and even more critically with respect to the ecological systems that we depend upon for life support ... that we are at most custodians, receiving a legacy for prior generations, and responsible for handing that legacy on, augmented rather than degraded, to the generations to follow.

This is, of course, a social philosophy that many indigenous peoples incorporate into their societies, since of course there are a long chain of previous overshoots and collapses in our time on this planet, and many opportunities to learn these particular lessons.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Dec 24th, 2007 at 09:40:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is, of course, a social philosophy that many indigenous peoples incorporate into their societies, since of course there are a long chain of previous overshoots and collapses in our time on this planet, and many opportunities to learn these particular lessons.

That and the fact that those who failed to learn the lesson are no longer with us today. That last point is, perhaps, an even stronger lesson in the importance of not defecating in your own nest.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Dec 25th, 2007 at 05:27:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Next Economic Revolution: Economic Growth and the Steady State


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Dec 24th, 2007 at 02:40:40 PM EST
European Tribune - The Next Economic Revolution: Economic Growth and the Steady State

Economic growth normally proceeds in waves, as we learn how to do things better, and then put that into practice.

The learning how to do things better ... that is the continuous, ongoing process of invention, and its not what goes in waves. Its the putting inventions into practice ... that is, innovation ... that's what goes in waves.

And "Economic Revolutions"? Well, innovations come in waves, and those waves of innovations themselves come in waves of bigger innovation waves separated by less dramatic innovation waves. If you want to label the biggest wave of innovations in a particular period a Revolution, then if you look around, you will find others just as dramatic.

How are those waves seen in the historical record? What data should one be looking at?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Dec 31st, 2007 at 10:32:33 AM EST
... in productive equipment.

However, by their nature, they show up most clear in production in the productive equipment that is relied on most heavily in that wave of innovations. So, for the great surge in steam power, the number of fixed steam engines and locomotives tells the tale of the boom and tailing off ... but it doesn't say anything about the establishment of the crude oil productive system.

In historical research, this is fine ... we can identify what the equipment that had the strongest complementarity with the balance of the innovation wave, and trace out the surge in investment in that equipment.

For an indicator, of course, that would be like looking for a recession in the aggregate GDP data ... we are reasonably confident about the GDP data for Quarter 1 by the end of Quarter 2, and so can be confident that we were in a recession on the definition of two consecutive quarters of reduction in GDP, by the end of Quarter 3. And by the end of Quarter 3, most of the GDP recessions that we have experienced since the end of WWII would be over, with the economy starting to grow again.

Mind you, any wave of investment in productive equipment associated with a new technology is part of a wave of innovation ... that's what innovation is, putting a new technology to use. However, whether its the next wave along the existing technological channel, or breaking ground for a new technological channel ... that's far easier to see in retrospect.

There is much of this in the literature on Kondratieff  cycles, but much of that is focused on the question of whether these cycles have a regular periodicity ... his theory was that capitalist economies have a long cycle of about 50-60 years.

In this context, there are two steps between the general observation of the cyclic character of economic innovations and Kondratieff theory as such ... the first is whether Kondratieff was correct, and the second is whether the cycle would remain substantially the same given the massive institutional change that we must proceed with in order to achieve an ecological sustainable economic system.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Dec 31st, 2007 at 11:32:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You mean, for instance, the surge in investment in IT over the past 15 years as a marker of the "information revolution"?

Or the surge in investment in renewable energy technology that is underway? (e.g., wind: Jerome or Crazy Horse could provide figures for this one)

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Dec 31st, 2007 at 11:39:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... if, indeed, it is the establishment of a new technological channel, then twenty years from now, when it becomes clear what are the common features shared between those waves of innovation and later waves of innovation in the same technological channel, it seems highly likely that we can point to those waves of innovation and say, "this one was an important pre-cursor", and "this one is the critical breakthrough laying the foundation for our current economic regime".

Lots of waves of innovation are billed as the next really, really big deal. Far fewer are.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Dec 31st, 2007 at 12:11:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not so much interested in the retrospective historical impact, but more in the quantitative information about vawes of new investment and the distribution of sizes, durations, and possible cascades of investment adding up to large waves.

Looking at it from the paradigm of self-organised criticality, in other words.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jan 1st, 2008 at 09:59:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BruceMcF:
Mind you, any wave of investment in productive equipment associated with a new technology is part of a wave of innovation ... that's what innovation is, putting a new technology to use. However, whether its the next wave along the existing technological channel, or breaking ground for a new technological channel ... that's far easier to see in retrospect.
I'd be personally more interested in getting a distribution of sizes and durations of investment waves.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Dec 31st, 2007 at 11:41:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I expect that the Long Wave theorists would have those in spades.

(I also expect that they would have different ones, each one backing up the position that they are taking on some specific point of contention.)

Its been about eight years since I last looked at the Long Wave theory literature ... more recently I have been more interested in the lower level stuff, in the business literature on entrepreneurship.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Dec 31st, 2007 at 12:03:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am not sure you could see waves in a quantitative indicator every time. But I think we have seen waves of new business whenever technology reached an enabling threshold, so besides the "liquid fuels" revolution:
  • progress in shipbuilding and navigation enabled the discovery of the New World, it was a business venture. Later other improvement in ship design like clippers made it economically viable to move actual goods to/from colonies and not just loot the gold
  • physiocratic theories applied to agriculture boosted output during the 19th century, freeing workforce for manufacturing
  • the industrial steel furnace is a revolution in itself in my view, just a big a jump as from bronze to iron: cheaper and harder tools and fixtures, enabling manufacturers to churn out yet more new fixtures ever cheaper with new mechanized manufacturing processes based on steel tooling and heavy machinery. This one was a virtuous cycle culminating now with the digital control micrometric machine tool, the automatized assembly chains, and may be someday the Asimov robot (may be pretty soon, a humanoid robot doesn't need to be much smarter than a dog to have a huge impact on the labor market). Of course, it also kept shedding jobs at the same time, but it is the way we have refrigerators to keep our food fresh, cars, vacuum cleaners, etc...
  • progress in medicine has increased the strength of the workforce, and its number by better life expectancy, with milestones at vaccination and antibiotics, and the perfection of the cesarean surgery
  • progress in weapons has delivered the nuclear-tipped ICBM and the balance of terror, freeing the industrialized countries of the infrastructure destructions-rebuilding incurred by conventional wars every other decade
  • progress in specialty maths and semiconductors made the computing revolution, eliminating many bookkeeping tasks, enabling new business models that are in essence only smart bookkeeping in many industries, and created new boring consultancy jobs
  • progress in space, fiber technologies and semiconductors (again) enabled the communication revolution, global corporations with economies of scale, internet and main-stream media, and wage arbitrage.

The important thing to note in my view, is that it is an exponential process. We're past the point when progress in a single area of science had life-changing impacts (save possibly biotech, but the experimentation latency in this field will make the impacts slower than other revolutions). It is now more the outcome of exploration of the possibilities offered by combinations of technologies, and the combinatorics push the border faster and faster.

In my view, since the 60's (the decade of the mosfet, the communication satellites, the DNA ...) we have seen innovation change lives like never before. It's not relenting, but people no longer pay attention and live surrounded by "magic", they shrug at the marvels. Obviously, despite the improvement in technology, there won't be much to show off in this century (car can't get supersonic, TV can't get bigger than houses...) Only biotech could have an impact (making immortals some day), or sooner we could have omnipresent robots. Forget thought control, it won't make a change, we already have it full time. It's called TV + pervasive computing.

Pierre

by Pierre on Mon Dec 31st, 2007 at 11:55:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... waves of innovation resulting in things that appear as dramatic life changing impacts might itself be on broad channel that we are close to exhausting.

At a broader level, if we were to institute an ecologically sustainable economy, that would be a life-changing impact of a substantial sort, even if it did not show up in flying cars or weekend trips to the moon.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Dec 31st, 2007 at 12:07:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]


Display:
Go to: [ European Tribune Homepage : Top of page : Top of comments ]