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Religion and family

by DoDo Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 09:56:47 AM EST

When I read kcurie's A Christmas tale, I thought it is a nice story, but somehow I couldn't relate. After sleeping one over it, I realise it has to do with some personal experiences that lead towards a matter not showcased by the four families in the tale.

At the same time, I realise this family thing also has something to do with my reluctance to see a separation of 'spirituality' and 'religion' some others see.


In all four families in the tale, the issue is whether the families are practising religious rituals for their son. But what about making the son "do religion"?

I have a vague sense that those who see religion and spirituality not just as different, but disjunct (or even diametrically opposed) things, make so by contrasting individual experience and (a) hierarchical power structures and/or (b) rigid dogmatic rules (held personally or enforced from above).

To me, experience in collectives of various size (in congregation, at a festivity, on pilgrimage) already blurs the line. But where I see these things inextricably interwinded is at a middle level: the family. There, spiritual experience, dogma and enforcement can be united in a single act.

I am a second-generation atheist. Meaning, my parents didn't believe in gods, and never felt the need to instruct me either way. (In fact to this day I never asked them how or even whether they lost belief, or just pretended from the earliest age.) My first vague awareness of religion was as something in history, something people believed in the past like flat Earth and dragons. My first experience with live religion was that of my grandparents when on holiday with them. To be more precise, that of my grandmother (devout Catholic).

What made this a painful experience from the start was my parents telling me to not tell the grandparents that I don't believe.

Imagine the conflict in a six-year-old having to go along with a lie (I guess at that age one doesn't even have a full sense of lies), having to sustain a lie for a long period of time, and having to lie just to the beloved grandparents. Going to Sunday mass and feeling a hypocrite in God's house, without believing in that God one is hypocritical towards. Listening to the pastor's sermon and swallowing critical questions or moral disagreement. Being made to recite prayers every night without believing the words said. Feelings of guilt, hypocrisy and betrayal (of Granny), which induce mental attempts to reconcile the inreconcilable.

What Granny believed was that my parents don't have time for church stuff besides work, and that she has to make up for that, and that with all this she is saving our souls. From her, this wasn't the loveless ritual afew speaks about re his family. It was an expression of love and care within the bounds of her beliefs.

Those beliefs were what institutionalised religion wanted to deeply imprint into its believers. (Including the belief that children should be indoctrinated, emotionally blackmailed, and made feel guilty in a thousand ways.) However, at the same time, they were deeply internalised. Her religion wasn't -- like so often -- to show off before society, it was a folk version, and it was emotional enough for her for prayer to get tears in her eyes. And I suspect the main vehicle of her own indoctrination was family, too.

Now my situation as a grandchild under parental orders to shut up and go along was special. However, I'd imagine the fact that a child is permanently with its parents and is dependent to them in many other ways, more makes up in potental for exposure and pressure. So, in families where child participation in rituals/indoctrination is considered part of care, some don't need the push and are 'inspired' themselves; some submit, to keep up the family bonding, and get indoctrinated; some rebel and the family learns to accept the situation; some won't rebel openly, pretend and are conflicted forever; some rebel and the conflict blows up the family; some rebel later and carry deep scars.

Display:


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 09:57:24 AM EST
Good diary, thanks.

There are a lot of things I might say from a personal perspective, but I won't because I don't think they'd add anything.

But one phenomenon I have noticed, as more and more of my friends have had children over the last 10 years or so, is that people who never went to church or thought twice about religion when they were single and childless suddenly started going to church when they had kids.  And when I've asked them about it, I frequently get answers that indicate that they just see this as something they're supposed to do.  One friend said something about "giving" her children religion, or not wanting them to grow up without the "option" of believing, which is strange enough when you think about it.  Most of them said they were raised in families that were religious and churchgoing to some degree (some more than others) and moved away from religion as adults, and they probably suspect their children will do the same, but few of them seem to think that the children would "opt" for religion as an adult if raised without one.

Just an observation, I'm not sure what it means.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 10:16:03 AM EST
I understand that point of view from being around my sister and her family as very active members of a Jewish community. I should say here that they are reform Jews, not orthodox.

My niece had her Bat Mitzvah 4 weeks ago and it made me feel that although I don't believe in God, I could go along with practising Judaism for the sake of future children of mine and my family.  I've attended evening and morning Sabbath services at my family's synagogue more than I've been to a Christian church as an adult. It is not that I would want to give my children religion but more a sense of belonging, being supported and loved and having community and social networks.  

There's a huge sense of isolation in the way I live at times. My 'family' or close community in Cardiff are the people I volunteer with.  The structure for the children in these families is geared around being thoughtful and giving, and helping each other and as such we all 'belong' with each other and have the bond of Treasure Trove to keep us together. Not an ounce of religion in sight and I'm more than happy with that. But without Treasure Trove, I wouldn't feel any sense of community around me at all.

I've been to Jewish weddings and Bat Mitzvahs and unlike the sense of hypocrisy I feel whenever I step foot in a church (much like DoDo describes), I feel a certain warmth towards the practice of Judaism.  Maybe that is because it has always been a friendly and positive experience for me, with my family.

They celebrate God, yes. But they also celebrate and welcome their community and members and non-members. They celebrate family and every individual.  The religion provides a structure and sense of belonging and guidance, and a purpose that is rare to find outside religious practices.  For our children (ie my sister's children) I've seen them mature and become well rounded young people who have a role to play in their community, but still are able to be who they are and develop their own way through life.

My personal experience of religion as a child was appalling.  Everyone around me was a hypocrite, they did not practise what they preached and they were rotten to the very core.  That is why I lost my faith.  But then also you do see people who are genuine in their faith and practise it with a conscience and without passing judgement or attempting to convert others around them.

I suppose I have trouble reconciling my personal non-belief and loathing of the hypocrisy of many organised religions with the few good experiences I have had.  

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 11:56:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In Wales:
I feel a certain warmth towards the practice of Judaism.

Where else could you learn such funny gallows humor?

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!

by LEP on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 05:06:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I also have an easier time with synagogues. Or rather I find it easier to visit services in synagogues, catholic churches, orthodox churches, mosques or anything other then the Swedish national church (Lutheran). I guess visiting is the key word there. I can visit places of worship and take part in ritual, because I visit. The key of visiting is that you can go home. But the national church is home in a sense. I do not feel I can visit and go "oh what nice rituals you have, how interesting".

That would just be silly.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 05:10:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

One friend said something about "giving" her children religion, or not wanting them to grow up without the "option" of believing, which is strange enough when you think about it.  

I am letting my children the option of believing, or not, by not inflicting organised religion on them at a young age. They can do it as adults if they care to. From my own family's experience, the more exposure you have to the catholic church's backward social and political practices, the less likely you are to end up actually believing in anything, so maybe that's not a good bet...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 10:02:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wouldn't have turned out religious regardless of my upbringing, I think, but if I were to openly discuss religion with my mom, I might joke around by saying "you know, if you hadn't forced me to get up at 7am on a weekend day every week for 16 years..."

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 10:14:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is a practical problem in child-rearing, though. The atheist community doesn't offer the sort of support systems that are provided by churches (at least here in the U.S.), so much of what goes on in church communities is almost completely secular. Stuff like skiing trips, sex education, scouting, counselling, emotional and financial support in hard times, etc.

What I see is that most parents are involved in churches, but it is very hard to figure out whether its because of faith or for reasons of practical parenting.

by asdf on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 11:07:46 AM EST
You have a really good point.  (Although I'd never rely on the church I grew up in be responsible for sex education, good grief what a bad idea that would be.)  But I did sort of a double-take at your word choice:  "the atheist community."  I didn't know there was such a thing.  (Is there?)  Which sort of goes to illustrate your point.

I know lots of people who, searching for what's basically a religious community without the religion, have started going to a Unitarian Universalist church, where you can basically believe anything you want.  (Or that's what it seems like in my admittedly uninformed understanding of it....)

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 12:38:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
is that of people who think that people with feelings or spirituality are crazy.

It only exists in very fanatical minds.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 09:57:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think this is true at all. Most of the crowd I run with is agnostic, but only because there is "a one in a ten billion trillion chance that god exists" and as such atheism can't be embraced. None of these people lack feelings or think spirituality is ridiculous.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 10:20:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
However, what these people view as 'atheism' is a reflection of the 'atheism' only existing in fanatical minds. That agnosticism is half-way between athesm and theism is a common misconception; in reality we are talking about orthogonal issues: belief in and knowledge of the existence of gods (or, as so often for Westerners who can't notice the false dichotomy: of one single God).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Dec 31st, 2007 at 10:28:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I always think that one of the reasons why I am an atheist is the excellence of the compulsory religious (ie christian) education I received at school. I'd been taught the broad outlines of most of the Bible story (all contradictions carefully skated over). However, for somebody like me being even moderately attentive, it was unavoidable that some of the more obvious kookery of the early bible would begin to make me question exactly what separated christianity from any of the other religions in the world, or other folk tales, myths and hob-goblins.

Yes, really I was nine when I asked what made the god of chrisianity more believable than fairies at the bottom of the garden. I didn't get a good answer then, I have never had a good answer. Religion seems to be an indoctrination and brainwashing. Some work by awe, incense and ineffeable mysteries that surely only immpress the pompous or feeble minded (hello, Mr Blair). Others just have a hand-wringing attitude of please like us, we'll change the scripture to suit you if you join.

Most versions of christianity seem to be very embarrassed about the central person of christ himself. Oh, everything is done in His Name. But nobody seems to remember what he actually stood for, cos that would be embarrassing.

So, having asked awkward questions you open a curtain and ask what it's for. You realise that only the poor dumb saps who preach in churches actually believe in this nonsense. Those who study it hard almost laugh at the naivety of the faithful, after all, they know what a lot of this stuff actually means. they know the original language, the original myths, they know what is what, waht isn't and what the useful lies are that must be adhered to.

So what is religion for ? Like I keep saying; it takes that most marvellous human impulse towards spirituality, the thing that buddha, Mohammed and Christ amongst others all tried to convey, and twists it for political purposes. Read the Old Testament, it's pretty plain. Got a political problem ? There'll always be some loony out in the desert babbling away useful solutions: If not, well you can always make your own.

Religion is just a political institution that succeeds by establishing a group of believers and making  fence around them and saying you are Truth and others are less loved. If you do what I say, you will remain Loved. Or else......

That's why I'm an atheist. God or gods may be unchallengable and right, but no man can speak for god. No man is their representative on earth and any man who claims such a position has not got my interests at heart. We only have to listen to the hate-filled pronouncements of those who claim divine inspiration to know that to be true.

By the time I found out about quakers, (some) buddhists and sufis I was way way too far into disbelief. I admire these people, they are good people and their spirituality is something I admire. But their systems and practice are props and sorcery that are hangovers from their history really. They don't need it. And neither do I.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 12:59:10 PM EST
compulsory religious (ie christian) education I received at school

Which reminds me of what lengths this pretense to the grandparents went for me: when we went to West Germany, the only reason my parents sent me to participate in Germany's semi-compulsory religious education at school was because the grandparents knew of the possibility. (Though for me, it wasn't as negative an experience as for you in Britain, maybe I'll expand on this in a next comment.)

Yes, really I was nine when I asked what made the god of chrisianity more believable than fairies at the bottom of the garden.

For me, it went the other way around: the first religions I learnt of (maybe age five or six), being Christian monotheism, the Greek pantheon, (what we were 'taught' as) North American Native American religion, and nomadic people's shamanism, were in the same category for me, and in the same category with fairies and dragons (and Santa). For me the notion of taking one of these seriously and not the others was new.

Religion is just a political institution that succeeds by establishing a group of believers and making  fence around them and saying you are Truth and others are less loved.

I think it is much more, and my diary tried to express some of this, but I'd have to return in another long comment (now have something to do).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 01:09:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Obviously there are a number of atheists posting at this site. It would be interesting to explore what atheism means to us. In particular, I find myself very much out outside of traditional atheist views, and apparently behaviours, as I am currently a member of the RSOF. On the other hand there are no shortage of atheists within the RSOF. It is nice to think that the acceptance of Atheists (and Jews among others) is "systems and practice are props and sorcery that are hangovers from their history."  In a small part I think that it is even true. Early calls for religious tolerance of Jews and Muslims, as well as early support for Native American Spirituality in some cases over Christianity within a framework that outsiders call consensus seems to eventually have evolved to their logical conclusion - and now provide acceptance for atheists as true equals. As for whether we need it or not, that certainly is not up to you. Your own needs, on the other hand, are your own business, and no one has the right to tell you that you should seek organised, or for that matter unorganised religion. This is the area that bothers me a lot - the atheist version of if you don't believe you are going to hell.

Perhaps like the ex smoker being the most militant anti smoking I am quite conscious of a very strong anti-religion streak within myself. In part it was through exploring this anti-religious streak that I ended up where I am.

For myself too, I became an atheist at fairly young age - unable to find answers to who created god that were remotely satisfying. I have not yet found any answers that are remotely satisfying for myself, but I do note that others have found answers to questions that are important to them that satisfy them. For them, they have a belief in god that I do not share. This does not bother me long as they don't think I am any less for it.


aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 04:45:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is there such a thing as "traditional atheist views"? Does anyone find themselves inside it or is it a cathegory defined to describe others?

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 05:21:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I guess "traditional atheist views" are either (1) views of atheists publicly speaking out against religion, probably on a positivist and humanist basis; (2) caricatures drawn by the dominant religious group and internalised from local community at an early age.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 05:47:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps it is an unfair categorization.

On the other hand perhaps it refers to the view that people who engage in religious activities are at best misguided and the whole world wold be better if only everyone were atheists - sort of like John Lennon's song Imagine.

aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 07:28:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I usually refer to that as missionary atheism. And I suspect that a minority of atheists (depending on definition) are missionary. Though the silent atheists do not get much press.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 07:40:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In that case, I have made an unfair categorization, and I retract it.

aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 07:46:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
  • first, personal beliefs. Atheism (believing there is no god) and agnosticism (not knowing if there is a god) are often conflated;

  • second, attitudes to churches as organised social and political actors. I am vigorously opposed to religion playing any part in politics, because religion is about absolutes (life and death), and inevitably leads to 'ends justify the means' policies and attitudes. Putting organised religion in politics inevitably brings totalitarianism or authoritarianism, because of the very nature of religion;

  • third, opinion on what can inspire morality and ethics. I see no problem whatsoever with one's spirituality or religious beliefs driving values and political behavior; I'd just like the courtesy returned, and in particular, the acceptation of the idea that morality and ethics can come from elsewhere than religion or religious practice.

I'm not sure which one of the last two points organised religion hates most; both usually get one the label of "fanatical atheist".

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 10:09:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Organised religion is a rather huge area with an incredible range of diversity in beliefs. You are falling into two traps:

One size fits all
The past is the present

In the recent provincial election in Ontario the ruling Conservative Party decided to import US policies into Canada and made as one of their platforms the promise of public funding of religious schools. Even in the Bible belt of Ontario the platform had 30% support. It's hard to say how badly this hurt the Conservatives, but they lost the election.

One might conclude that churches and their members tend to support a separation of church and state - fairly strongly at least in Ontario. (Interestingly enough the Catholic Church receives public funding - but that is a whole new topic.)

second, attitudes to churches as organised social and political actors. I am vigorously opposed to religion playing any part in politics, because religion is about absolutes (life and death), and inevitably leads to 'ends justify the means' policies and attitudes. Putting organised religion in politics inevitably brings totalitarianism or authoritarianism, because of the very nature of religion;

Religion is about absolutes (life and death) is one of those one size fits all statements. It is often true, it may even be true almost all the time (but I wouldn't be willing to bet on that). It certainly isn't true all the time. We use models to help us understand the world. They help make extremely complicated things understandable. You have presented a model. (In one sense religion is also model.) The point about models though is that they are not true representations, they are simplifications.

The rest of the quote I have taken is even more problematic. Not necessary false - just more problematic.

  • Simple statements that ignore the original role that religion played - including being a social safety net. This role is still played by churches.

  • It ignores the role of philosophy that is integral to what religion is.

  • The blanket statement of "Politics" is practically meaningless in trying to sort out what you mean. A huge number of churches are backing the Earth Charter for example. Locally we engaged in action in opposition to indefinite deletion without trial that was taking place in Canada under the guise of fighting terrorism. As well we have supported Gay marriage. In Nazi Germany our faith is recognised for having hid political prisoners against the laws of the state. We are probably the original reason that one can confirm instead of swear on the bible in court, and early in our history we helped instituted fixed price selling instead of bargening. Are these "politics"? Advocating on behalf of the poor and downtrodden is a very long standing tradition of religion. Is this "politics"? How about deliberately breaking the law?

As far as atheist morality and ethics being unacceptable - Our local Unitarian Universalists get along quite well at our local interfaith group. I don't get that feeling at all. When I look at US fundamentalism though, I know exactly what you speak of. But you have presented one size fits all.

The site Religioustolerance.org attempts to define what religion is. It starts off by saying none are totally satisfying.

This is the 1990 Barns and Noble (Cambridge) Encyclopaedia:

"...no single definition will suffice to encompass the varied sets of traditions, practices, and ideas which constitute different religions."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_defn.htm

Think about it for a bit. If Barns and Noble can't come up with a definition of religion because it is too complex, simple statements about religion are almost guaranteed to be inaccurate at best.


aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 02:52:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What I wonder about, especially given your last paragraph, is whether your view of official religion is most informed by an alienated nature of the Anglican Church as you met it when young.

But I agued in the diary that 'heartfelt' nature, family bonding, dogmatism, and political institution functions can go hand-in-hand. I do think that religion's most important feature is self-perpetuation (in various ways), but I think the political function is secondary. I think the political function can develop around a religious group, originally for the purpose of increasing the enforcement of dogma, and those heaved into a position of power get to love it, rather than the other way. But at the same time at other levels, community, family and individual levels, religion serves quite other objectives.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 06:00:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But I agued in the diary that 'heartfelt' nature, family bonding, dogmatism, and political institution functions can go hand-in-hand. I do think that religion's most important feature is self-perpetuation (in various ways), but I think the political function is secondary. I think the political function can develop around a religious group, originally for the purpose of increasing the enforcement of dogma, and those heaved into a position of power get to love it, rather than the other way. But at the same time at other levels, community, family and individual levels, religion serves quite other objectives.

Oh I don't doubt that this is a pretty reasonable summary of how religion works within a community. My difficulty is that those leaders use the consent of the laity for purposes that are quite malign. They twist the message to suit more contemporary propaganda. The kindness of the community becomes the cosy gaily lit shop front for a slaughter-house of principles where gays can be traduced (and rightfully killed), where women's health and lives can be sacrificed on the blood stained altars of morality, honour and  control.

The community may be comfortable, but wickedness is perpetuated in their name.

and worse, the true spititual impulse is diverted into voodoo, losing itself in muddy backwaters of arcane ritual.

And as someobdy once said, the proportion of religious to non-religious people in jails is precisely the same as the rest of the population, so it's not even a noticeable force for good.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 09:21:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually Dodo, when I first heard the tale I could not relate at all with the families.. but I must admit I like it a lot... In just one tale I had udnerstood why magic rithuals were universal in all cultures and how magic rithuals had been substituted for religion hierarchical structures in some societies... but while these hierarchical structures took over the magic area some families actually transformed them in magic things in a lot of cases and for a lot purposes.

So from day to another I took religion in a compeltely different way: I understood all the religions teachings I recieved when I was young and I really enjoyed them again and suddenly.  

In Spain  after Franco there was a huge catholic movement explaining that God was actually love (where the pasages of love the other and god is love were stressed.. leaving aside all the other fragments.. where homosexuality or any other sex style was cheerished  and were social and magic thinking was supported and accepted). Inside this huge community there were actually the so-called "curas rojos" that Migerr can explain better since they were more common in Madrid that in Barcelona (in Barcelona the ecumenic movement and "love is god is love" beat the curas rojos by 2 to 1 in numbers easily)  , suddenly I understood that some people were actually trying to move a hierarchichal religion to a more magic side.

And finally I come to your point, for me it was clear that forcing your child a religion without making it magic was.. well not my kind of stuff.. and not only was weird but quite.. may I see antinatural... it is a way to get rid of magic by setting a hierarchical structure to deal with the social bonding using an external agent.. when this external agent is a priest with stays in the community , worries about it and helps , it might be great, but when this priest or structure is there to control the most probably outcome is .. well becoming a full atheist like my grandma.

So I learnt to appreciate a part of my everyday relgion and profoundly dislike the other, the authoritarian, the one that tried to get rid of magic all together.

After this tale a huge rush of reading antrhopology of magic practice ensued...and actually right now I am reading a classic.. the first proposal in antrhopology of the magic universal laws that all cultures posses.

Why is magic so important, how science and religion developed from magic rithuals.. and how science started to decide that magic was contrary to it (while actually beign the foundation of it) and religion became more hierarchical and decided to take over the magic movement as much as possible.

Since then, , the why and how questions, the limits of science and rationalism..everyhting lead me away from religion and more and more into physics,  the study of the magical foundation of science and.. finally, eventually to a pure magic area... but I still pay tribute to those religion members that tried to move a hierarchical religion into a more magic family matter... it is really a pity that you were not so lucky... or well may be not.

great diary Dodo.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 08:26:53 PM EST
I had problems with the story, as all the families who performed a ritual believed in their ritual.

I am a multi-generational atheist. I am not sure how many generations. Of course we had (and have) rituals - like how we spent christmas or easter - but they were commonly understood as rituals with no greater purpose then too spend some nice time together. And they were subject to discussion and change. Nice, but I can not understand it in terms of any belief in magic.

There is plenty of mutual support but understood in terms of emotional or practical support, not magic. Why did no family try to figure out what would be on the test? Was it a new test? Who constructed it?

I guess what I am saying is that I have a hard time identifying with any of the families. Still easiest to identify with family four, because they performed no ritual that they believed would magically change the result. This identification makes the story rather harsh as it tells how non-religious people (they are the only non-religious family in the story) are non-supportive toward certain children. So essentially non-religious families are mean.

I suppose you are going to say it is just a tale but it is not uncommon for tales to be judgemental, moralistic and bashing others. I think content of tales does matter.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 09:29:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I found the story so intuitive--or my response was so intuitive that I've had a few goes at saying "what I think it means", but I haven't been able to get it down.

The key is "magic", and I'd like kcurie to write a diary on the subject, or point me to some books.  Mauss wrote a book on magic, I think, but...it's one of those terms I don't really understand--not in the sense kcurie uses it.

There is plenty of mutual support but understood in terms of emotional or practical support, not magic.

The way I understand the story is that the test represents a life changing event.  Because of their ages it's maybe acting as a rite of puberty.  And with rites come rituals--?  That there is this movement--children become capable of producing children--yes, mutual support, emotional or practical, but also...I don't know...the reactions of the adults are part of the experience.  So you could have a family that believed in science and the value of humans...there are all kinds of family roles, so I think the specifics of the ritual(s) are not relevant.

Here they are, though:

The biophysicist

Meanwhile all the family decided to support him by making the standard four wheels turn around magic rithual. The rithual, whose main goal was to create a universal trascendental magic influx that, according to the tradition, helped everybody in a situation of "passing a life test".

This, for me, represents any activities that seek nebulous futures in esoteric activities--a movement away from ego-directed approaches.  I might do the same thing by only playing certain music, or maybe I'd read books, or I dunno....I don't know what I'd do to help a person if I had a role in helping them pass a life test, but as I want to help them pass....(okay!)...I think the idea is creating "the space where you can pass", and that involves the meals, the conversations--but here they span wheels..I thought of tibetan prayer wheels.

The windmill financier

they decided to gather morning and night in absolute family prayer.

[...]

If they gave so much attention to the deity (or deities), they thought, the deity(s) in turn would take care that the son, and future windmill financer, will pass the exam with minimum time outside the family... and so they prayed.

The personalised superforce(s)...the higher being(s).  Help from outside.  They're praying for auspicious conditions such that the studying doesn't separate them from their son.  Praying for rain.

The clown

So the family formally decided that the future clown would study almost nothing and they would pray/sing/enchant even less. Everything was left to the karmic future.. and whatever had/should happen would happen to be

I'd say that is the non-religious family.  Karmic future stands for "what will be will be".

The future teacher

They frankly  never gathered to make any actual discussion about how to help his son. So no rithual was proposed, no magic would appear in the house,  nothing , nilch, nada.

[...]

One of the most important points in the life of his son was rendered as magically and spiritually irrelevant... so they did nothing.

The important point isn't their particular ritual, it's that they didn't consider...this rite of passage as important to their son's...basic life--they didn't think it had that life-changing essence.  The key phase for me: "They frankly never gathered to make any actual decision", which is the opposite of pratical and emotional support.  It doesn't say they didn't believe in any rituals, only that they did nothing.

The end of the story has three happy endings.  How did the rituals help?

The Biophysicist

They all knew that the son had studied but magic had taken care of all the contingencies.

The esoteric world did its esoteric work.  I imagine if he'd failed then it would mean that there were inauspicious currents, like one of the I Ching hexagrams.

The clown

the family accepted that the best for the younger of the house was actually making a stand and failing... a new future would be around the corner...

There's also the line but the karma had done his job. which I read as playing with the idea of karma having personality, though karma is "what will be will be"--if it works out, well done karma; if it doesn't--that's karma.

The windmill financier

There was absolutely no doubt that all the prayers had effect. Without the Light, or the Word or the essence the son could have not done it.

Deity-religion.  Like karma only they really believe in this/these director(s) of events--as personalities.

There's an extra paragraph to show how failure would also have been an acceptable outcome--it's karma with characters.

And then there's the unhappy outcome.

May be he did not take the appropriate books, or maybe it was that he was not smart enough, maybe it was that something wrong was in the air that day that made him stupid for some hours... why him, why?

He had no ritual to explain his situation, no karma, no gods, no esoteric practices, his family hadn't offered him a model for this rite--and so he failed on his own.  In all the other stories there is the idea that failure would not be bad but is an acceptable outcome for the rite--that the rite happens, and success or failure are outcomes which is what...makes it a rite of passage?

And then he looked around, he looked at his family who never really supported him, who never moved a finger for him because they were focused on his younger sister.. and when he looked at them, the family realized.

In many stories the family wouldn't have realised, and the son would have grown distant from them, something bad happened--he wasn't supported through his rite of passage; how could he trust them with any others (marriage, death, work, illness)?  He was one step alienated.  But the tale is closing, we need a moment to sum up these concepts, so the family realises, but it's too late.  The rite is over.

The son was now sure, the only thing he needed was the magic support of his family, and this support had been missing, he had no real family, no social net, no support...and the house froze suddenly.. relations were lost, enemity ensued.

This has that fatality to it that reminds me of old stories.  It explains a hundred years of feuding in one sentence.

So the worst has happened.  But we need the final line, which is given to the grandpa, the one who maybe sees the hundred years of sorrow to come.  He says

"If only.. if only we had made a magic rithual we would be sure now that you did not fail because we did not love you"

Which means, for me...exactly what it says, which is why I find it hard to say it another way, but some commenters have read it differently, so okay--I thought the story stood for itself, so these are just my thoughts...

1) We did not love you

That is what is clear to the family, that is the moral of the story--that love is demonstrated by supporting a person through a rite of passage.

2) The means of support aren't the point.  "a magic ritual" can be linked to the son's decision that "the only thing he needed was the magic support of his family"--that is all the ritual he needed.

But he didn't get it.

The grandpa says it backwards, which makes it more powerful (for me.)  He says: If we had made a ritual (if we had supported you) then we would know that your failure wasn't due to our lack of love.  In the other stories the rituals--the support--are necessary to explain both success and failure positively for the individual.  The exam itself is referencing, say, puberty, which can't be got round by looking up the answers, but you can study hard-- a child is always learning and needs the magic support of his or her family (those who are there to support) before during and after or else there is the danger that the unsupported person will not be able to make good sense from this life-changing event.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 10:49:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Your last point is right on. What was important was not that they didn't pray, but that they didn't care. And Grampa tries to assuage his guilt by bullshiting. To me, the Christmas Tale was not about religion or magic, but about caring and guilt. I think you said that too. It is the caring that counts, not the form it takes. I wanted  to write a diary: "A humanist view of a Chrismas Tale," but I think you have captured the essence of it.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 02:15:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
LEP:
ChristmasTale was not about religion or magic, but about caring and guilt.

And, I should add respect.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!

by LEP on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 04:00:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
TThat's the great thing of tales.. When I read it again and again I always reach exactlñyt he same conclusions as you.. but  with small differences in some aspects..  ANd on second rreadings I can also try to understand more things taht the tale says.

But it is nice to see how other people readign it can take completely different lectures adn completely different insights.

SO it  was icnredible nice to see that Dodo took anotehr important point... regarding how the families related to him...

Who said tales were not magic?....

so to close up.. yes.. I do think that explaining your young son a tale about how best to prepare fro the exam or about aything else will clearly qualify as a magic rithual.... expecially in the first time..a ctually how can I know that theuir magic four wheels rithual was not well.. that.. a tale explaining in a wheel form (four adults oen after the other) :)

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 07:42:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Your diary and Kcurie's set me thinking and I started to compose a long response.  It became much less personal or family orientated and much more sociological - in a way - and so I have decided to post as a separate diary on Religion and Science, God and Society instead.  What a glut of posts on Religion! I hope you find it interesting, even if it does not relate directly to yours.

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sat Dec 29th, 2007 at 10:19:21 PM EST
In the glut of religion diaries, today was Sagra Famiglia Day in Madrid. It appears the Catholic Church has a standing registered patent on what constitutes a family. The Madrid parade follows a previous Roman event well remembered for its strong Sicilian component: "Famighia Dei" so to say, à la Tony Soprano. (Why the modern Church-approved family has to be name-branded in English beats me.)

So please do remember that there is no such thing as a family outside the Christian community.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Sun Dec 30th, 2007 at 06:40:39 PM EST
So many great points already posted, I have little left:  I see the biggest differences are in our personal connotations of words (religion, spirituality, magic, ritual) and how we each have let our experiences clear up, or limit those definitions.

My upbringing in a sunday-catholic family and a female-catholic school was negative enough to avoid showing it to my son.  For me, it helped me think and develop individually because I tried very hard to convince myself I was "good=religious" until age 12?, when I found some friends and myself, at the annual spiritual retreat, ´praying´ NOT to have a religious ´vocation.  

It was ´daredevil´ time, to ´find solutions by sharpening contradictions´.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Sun Jan 6th, 2008 at 11:59:25 AM EST


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