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The drifting of the "City"...

by margouillat Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 06:10:00 AM EST

Human dwellings are various, in typology as in density, it has been so since the beginning of human times. But in some points of the history of mankind we did some quantic leaps... The "City" is one of these great steps for most of us...

I was always surprised to see that human settlements were qualified either by Aesthetics or by the "brute force" of numbers and quantities... And seldom by politics... As after all, the original word is "Polis", the "City", that started the political debate.
Here is an interpretation, a short one, about what the City is about... I will in time, surely develop some points in other diaries... Have fun!

Foundation

From the diaries -- whataboutbob


Myths of origin!

Behind the Romulus and Remus myth or the founding of Carthage by Didon, most archeologists today agree that the concept of cities originated in time from somewhere between 8 000 to 6 000 years B.C.

Why such a fuss? After all, since human beings settled down to shift to agriculture, it would seem "natural" that a successful cluster of housing would grow in a town that, maybe, could be called a "City" if it has enough population growth?

Findings show that that wasn't the case. At the time of Ur there were bigger settlements along the Euphrates or the Tiger whose population sigificantly outnumbered Ur or Nineveh, still history didn't call them "cities" (nor did keep track of them).

Until recent times, the usual belief was that a "city" was the "King's place" (or chief, chefferie in french), showing a shift in the "elder" system of authority inherited from nomadic times to the more centralized "chief of warriors". Ancient cities' fortifications and enclosures gave creed to that theory. The cities' success story being mostly because they were a trading tool.

Later observations and theories tend to relate the "City" concept with the development of irrigation and the first civil servant system. The new definition of the necessary condition for an urban civilization (concept of City) being:

An agricultural high level output next to a allogenous river in a hot desert...

Let's try to see what that means...

  • High level output for agriculture is easy! It means several crops a year... Calling for a lot of water and nourishment substrates.
  • An allogenous river means a river that carries deposits to and from, two very different geographical environments (silt carried to deserts).
  • A hot desert is the opposite of a cold one (Duh...!)

In old times when some roaming nomads settled to agriculture, the choice site was along rivers... Free water and rich grounds.
The trouble starts when most of those river banks are held by diverse groups (tribes) and that newcomers came, by sweeping waves, just behind them (in time and in geography).
The newcomers (other tribes) didn't have free access to the river and in the precise case of the hot desert, a very bad ground for agriculture.
As you can expect, and as in Hollywood westerns, it was war...

But war is not a lifelong thing with peasants... They need people to tend their crops, and they can't reproduce like rabbits if they don't have food for the offsprings... Means of agricultural irrigation were born!

They quickly evolved in a very sophisticated way, as some gigantic tunnels (hundreds of Km long) allowing for four workers to work in it with air and light (some still exist), reducing evaporation and harnessing the water resource!
These main tunnels were doubled with small canals in a mesh that could cover hundreds of hectares.
This full blown system was regulated with small doors, allowing water to flow only at some times and in some directions...

While Hercules was thought up a bit later, these works were enormous, and even if phased in time, required quite a lot of manpower and energy. These are not "warrior minded" designs, nor a collectivity auto-management's one (for that era).
Why would people accept to do such a slave task ? Maybe because they were "hooked" by the idea of a better future. Where their small acres of land far away from the river could one day be of some value for their descendants...

Such works induce time sharing culture, control, and overall design.
It means also a forced sharing of the water resource.
Small or Powerful, as in La Fontaine's fables they had to follow, because punishment was worse than death... Banishment...Or, no more water!
Somebody or some group had to control the sheer workforce, create shifts, negotiate the water deliveries, argue about the usefulness for the community of some crops... The "Master of Water"!
And mostly, because of high output, The City could sell the surplus for tools, or pay people just to think about improving the system... Or soldiers!
In a way, modernity was born!

The system...

While the City was building it's own unbalance, having to go forward to have more crops, more water, more people, more technology, it also tried to keep the smallest footprint possible. There was few open spaces at first.
Several story buildings with a upper terrace life. Collective spaces as wells, temples and marketplaces were the only ones at first, and when the streets begin to show, it was more of a maze in the "medina" sort.
Outer walls where hard to build and people crowded inside, getting used to less space.

The City evolved by swallowing it's outer core of buildings... The "yet to be citizens" living "outside the walls" becoming full fledged ones (often after a war where they served as the first buffering ring)!
But the City always tried to stay within limits... Choosing to add new layers on top of the existing buildings, before sprawling "outside". In those times, the City was a model of sustainability... Even in it's natural opposition to "Nature".
Citizenship was hard to get. But it gave incredible rights as very heavy duty. A good analogy would be a Roman citizenship in 30 A.D. for a family living in Syria.

With the City states, a centralized and hierarchical state form was developed in opposition to the mesh of villages that lived an "Hobbitshire" life style (Mumford, author of The City in History, seems to have been a good friend of Tolkien!), bound by some ethnic feelings or mostly by a religious one.
A City could raise an army of mercenary nomads, a cluster of village couldn't (sort of prefiguration of the "Seven Samurais").
As the city needed new people (immigration) they were very open about beliefs and religions, as anyhow the City itself was founded by a god, a half-god, or at least a hero!  Moral was not so tight (you had people from various origins so inbreeding wasn't a risk as in villages)... And an underground economy could be tolerated... Then recuperated!

There are only four major urban civilization recorded.

  • The middle-east from where most of us of advanced countries have inherited the concept... Tigres and Euphrates (The reference to Gilgamesh often seen as the father of the City concept or at least as it's vehicle in litterature).
  • The Indus and the Gange one (not yet fully recorded) with Mohenjo-Daro and now several cities discovered i what is also called the Harrapa civilization.
  • The Yellow river in China, Huanghe that is the Chines civilization cradle
  • The high plateau of Andes... (Uh???) Hey, how come? Where is the hot desert and the river ?... Well in South America the problem (as in France today) was more about the crop... Corn ! That is highly demanding of water! And on a limestone plateau that's not a simple task!

The spreading...

The concept of Cities was successful enough to spread. But it was a society choice. Some group of people didn't choose it, even while dealing everyday with cities.
While born in Mesopotamia and with influences with the Indus-Gange one, it's mostly the Canaan ancestors of the Phoenicians who spread the concept and the techniques all over the Mediterranean sea for the Middle East urban cicilization. Greeks and Romans did the rest!
These first urban techniques were very sound, playing with the main winds (cooking was with open fire) and a hierarchical grid of streets following local geography. While the water needs of the "origins" wasn't anymore the incentive, the different political utopias and territory control was an asset for most.

In matter of religions, Catholicism (mostly because of St Paul) was the most "City oriented" and helped to preserve the concept, while Judaism, Islam, Protestantism don't really care about the City (either you can pray anywhere or you just have some unique bearings to some axis mundi!) (it IS a simplification, but space relationship in religions does exist)!

Many of our European countries entered the "City" way of living through the Roman empire (and some never did)!
The main difference between the Anglo-saxon view of city (community, collectivity, christianity, protestantism, etc.) and the Latin ones might just be about the Roman urban and agricultural techniques and way of life seduction...

A City is therefore not just an overgrown village, but more of a peculiar "way of life". It is not, either, a level in evolution between the rural town to the megapole, there's nothing "natural" in it, it's more of an end then a mean.

It can be ditched as useless, not because it's old fashioned but more because we have changed or want to change our societies.
It shouldn't be misinterpreted as it is today when people want a "village" in the city or bring the countryside in the city core... In each of these cases you can end up with a gettho as you stigmatize either the riches (view on park) or the "sameness" of a population.
Forgetting what is the City, brings up the notion of the French "Banlieue" (from "Ban" as in banished, and "lieu" the locus= the non existing locus!)whereas it still is an important urbanization. Elsewhere, it's urban sprawl vs downtown.

Of course, in time, the city model was used (and abused) by many. Some, by badly copying it, other by being enforced through a colonial empire. Today a city seems so natural that we coined the word "Urbanism" (from Urbs, of course) to deal with all the different built-up areas, including  the city and the rest !

It is a common saying here, that if you speak of urbanism, it's because you've lost the City...

The future...

To paraphrase Malraux, I would say that the century that comes must be sustainable or mustn't be !

Agriculture has been desecrated by Industry and Landscaping was born. Heavy Industry is dying and now we talk of Cityscaping. As if, each time we shift our values, the precedent value is converted in a form of art or of leisure...

The City is in shambles... Some want to keep it as a museum, others speak of urban monads clustering between nations, the "ports" of a new MetaPolis.

Others again dream of the "village" as an utopia... ( Sarcelles is a village, same density per m2, a child must know at least 150 names of people not of his family that he crosses in the day, as in a village, while the urban child stops at about 50, etc.)

The villages in the countryside have, in the meantime, dwindled, left over to the few professionals of farming (just like the Gallo-Roman farm that was an industry).
Still, because of technology, the dream of the "original village" is in the mind of many. To live in the countryside with a distant on-line work... With an autonomous house, in a new form of self-sufficiency ! To be with real people, mostly friends whom you can talk to... (those never went in a countryside bar at 6 A.M.)!

The individual housing dream has pushed to the development of thousand  of "new" villages ("lotissements" in french), clusters of small cheap houses with millions of square meters of nice watertight roads to get there, lighted at night, with water pipes, electricity cable (copper), drains, etc... Usually built on excellent agricultural land! All these "Monopoly" houses sit right in the middle of the parcel of land, accentuating the isolation feeling !
When asked, the inhabitants say that's because "they want to be free to do whatever they want, at anytime of the day or of the night, without being pestered by neighbors"... ( speak of social bonds!). In truth, they lose two hours of transportation to go to work, are to tired to mow the grass, and yell at their kids if they are too noisy...!

While technology will, in time, help to reduce most of this ecological impact, transportation will still be a problem. Social lives too. A teenager will need a transportation mean or share it with friends to have the "Saturday night fever" with all the inherent risks .
The more people get isolated, the more they get paranoiac, the less they want to see people... It's what I call the "shotgun" syndrome!

I'm not specially fond of the way of life of "Brazil" but I don't like either, the sprawl of houses covering most of the territory. I shudder at the idea that they might get "autonomous" one day, shutting most of my fellow countrymen in social darkness.

I've studied many utopias, they all lead to totalitarianism ! And while the City model didn't escape dictatorship, it also showed in time that it could support self management as various political models... And maybe that an autonomous city is easier to build and more profitable...

If somebody asks me, I vote for the City... And spread along the idea that before long, "individual housing will be a crime against humanity"...

Mexico

Display:
It more of a reference for further debates... :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 04:51:43 AM EST
Thank you for this diary.  Many questions, but one point I was wondering if you could clarify is this:

The main difference between the Anglo-saxon view of city (community, collectivity, christianity, protestantism, etc.) and the Latin ones might just be about the Roman urban and agricultural techniques and way of life seduction...

Do you mean that the Anglo-Saxon view of the city was primarily ideological in nature, while the Latin view was more based on engineering/logistics/"urban planning"?

What exactly are you referring to by "way of life seduction"?  (I do agree "seduction" sounds more Latin than Anglo-Saxon!  ;-)  )

Do you see either view -- Anglo-Saxon or Latin -- as being more closely connected to a view of life that would permit or encourage the emergence of the lotissement-based dystopia you are very worried about?

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 06:06:57 AM EST
Most countries that were in the Roman empire, either by conquest or by negotiation ( a bit like wanting to join Europe, economical interests as a seduction :-) ), were taught new way of living.
Roads, bridges, water ducts, building techniques and agricultural ones for Engineering.
But political an economical assets as a full hierarchy of civil servants and an wider market for import export.
Better medical facilities and hygiene...

Half or Gaul, joined the Roman empire without a fight, because they wanted the "riches" of the empire. They were impressed by the architecture, the efficiency of communication means, the Sarko's Pax Romana...!

The other half fought to defend the cast system (same as India's Vedic one, same origin, same gods), the "freeness" of the individual, women's right, and an articulate system of political control through assemblies of Chiefs with the Druidic politburo...!

The City was felt as dehumanizing... As a foreign concept, aggressive. Might be what a North American Indian felt when "white men" started to get in their way...
It was more about ideology!

Most of the North of Europe didn't  live in Roman's ways but kept through negotiation and alliances their original way of living (improving it by external imports). Till the Christianity push.
Still, even when changing religion, some concessions were made.

It's not a surprise that from Charlemagne to Louis XV, France was "THE" country with such centralized power... Almost more Roman then the Roman themselves :-)

In todays Latin countries, as in France's Middle Age, you can see on a Michelin map the two superposed layers... The Roman territorial management AND the cluster of Villages that served well feudal times.
The Northern countries evolved differently and you can still feel it on satellite pictures.

For the South the City was a dreamed utopia, for the North it was just a commodity.
Most Latin cultured urbanist, shudders when he looks at North American cities (or Australian's ones)... He feels it's wrong, while for the people living in them, it seems quite natural.

While the Anglo Saxon culture speak a lot of community, Latin culture try to break those systemically... The City heritage!
The "freedom" of each feeling, individual centered shows by houses, religion, politics. Most of those from the North.
While in the South, individual freedom is not seen as so important vs the belonging to a greater level of life quality (or power, or richness) in a collective way...

I'll get back must go for now... :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 06:47:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
While the Anglo Saxon culture speak a lot of community, Latin culture try to break those systemically... The City heritage!

The juxtaposition which remains puzzling to me is the one you pose between community on the one hand and city on the other.  And you say "If somebody asks me, I vote for the City."

But isn't that giving too much weight to the city, the polis, and if I may go that far, the state (but maybe it is oversimplifying to identify "city" and "state")?

Why does Latin culture's emphasis on the city have to "break" the emphasis on community?

Indeed, aren't the individual, and the partnerships/community (koinonia) among individuals, prior to the city (polis, civitas, imperium), and shouldn't the city be an expression of the values evolved in and by the community, rather than have the values of the community be derived from the externally imposed disposition of the city?

I am afraid when Aristotle wrote:

Hence it is evident that the state [polis] is a creation of nature, and that man is by nature a political animal [politikon zôion]. And he who by nature and not by mere accident is without a state [apolis], is either a bad man or above humanity.

he went too far.

Humans are by nature social animals, but while a well organized polis can certainly enrich and enhance our experience as humans living in community with one another, no city, no matter how well designed or organized, can replace community.  Furthermore, humans do need each other and the socializing bonds of community; but we do not need the polis to create healthy, thriving communities, and to be fully human in them.

(You could probably guess by now, but I grew up in the "freedom" and "individualism" loving "Anglo-Saxon" United States, so no surprise where my bias come from!)

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 08:55:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Eh, eh... I knew it :-)
The real drift-even at ET- is exactly where you are pointing at!
An good american friend of my daughter was recently arguing about the presidential fuss, that french people were mostly "socialists" (right and left included).
It is true, however that the english word of community has a completely different meaning in French, as maybe the proper word would be communitarianism!

This is like the Mars and Venus thing...  We prone social mixity as a "must", even though in most cases we avoid the problem. Whereas we feel that the Anglo-Saxon solution is to have a number of satellites (communities) sharing a exchange hub called "dowtown".

That doesn't mean that, through cultural exchanges (TV) the communities aren't seen as a distant utopia... Still,  we have the back of the neck hairs that rises :-)

State, till now is just a blown up extent of the City/Village archetype. Europe is very interesting (while it doesn't yet really work on a political basis) because it might be a third way... If we manage to escape to the memories of the "Ruins of the Roman Empire" !

My point here is more to show why we don't always understand each others, on very basic facts, then to judge that one system is better then the other... :-) This everyday subconscious acquired culture, limit in a very pragmatic way the way we perceive new ideas !

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 09:25:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I might ask, for your part of the world, how you perceive the only non monotheistic  high level industrialization culture... Meaning Japan!

Most major monotheistic religions have given to man the right on "Nature" (he's a model of God), enabling it's plunder for industry.
Most non-monotheistic religions or philosophical beliefs, on the contrary argue more about an equilibrium or balance between Nature and Man.

Japan architecture and even urbanism is very different in it's relationship to Nature (even if it's "virtual")... :-)
It "looks like"... But isn't really "the same" !

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 09:33:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, I wish I was informed enough on that subject to give you a reliable answer.  I will be visiting my uncle next week, who is a graphic designer but has done a lot of thinking on this topic, what he thinks.

If you lined up models of building designs by Japanese architects alongside architects from Western -- monotheism-dominated -- cultures, I doubt very much I could pick out the Japanese designs.

I can say, however, that to my very unknowledgeable and superficial eye, Japanese cities are incredibly ugly and characterless, particularly in comparison to European and American ones.

We must remember that most Japanese cities were razed to the ground by ferocious U.S. firebombing during WW2.  However, Kyoto -- supposedly the mainstay of Japanese traditional architecture and culture in general -- was spared from the holocaust, and yet it, too -- in fact, it in particular -- is just ugly, almost depressing, in its banality and lack of imagination, lack of effort even, except as far as cleanliness, efficiency and safety go.

The most persuasive (even if not 100% convincing) explanation I have read is that the Japanese value the private, the inside, the small-scale far more than the public, the outside, the large-scale.  Thus, while private interiors, individual buildings, and smallest accessory can be utterly rich and beautiful, the overall assemblage of buildings, roads, bridges, train tracks, telephone poles, etc. on the town or city scale is just a mess, or a yawner, esthetically.

I have a couple of Western friends who claim they find Tokyo to be a beautiful city, but I think they mean beautiful "in a quirky way" or "from certain angles" or "at certain times of the day".

Oddly, though, I should admit that occasionally I stroll through some neighborhoods that I have been to in years, and while the first time I found them ugly or boring or characterless, the second time I say to myself, "My, what a lovely little neighborhood."  Is it that they have become "lovely" only in comparison to the even greater ugliness of the average neighborhood, or is that my subconsciousness has slowly started to become able to decode the esthetic language of Japanese "urban planning"?

As for Japanese "non-monotheistic" views about nature, I cannot think of a clear connection to architecture or urban planning in particular.  However, more generally speaking, I have noticed that what I read in books to be a certain "animism" that supposedly exists in Japanese culture does in fact exist: Japanese people have an astonishing sensitivity to cleanliness, order, form, and I believe part of this may come from a deepseated respect, even reverence, for almost any sort of object -- and its respective category -- you can think of.  So, everything is kept in good condition, everything is taken care of -- nurtured even -- almost as if it were a living being.  I remember, when I was about 7 or 8, I was rifling roughly through the pages of a book I was reading, and when my father (who is Japanese) saw these, he was a bit shocked and immediately explained to me, "Gently, gently!  You have to be nice with the book.  Books are nice (gentils).  They are so important and valuable.  You have to be nice to the book."  He wasn't talking about the monetary value of the book, which was almost nothing.  He was talking about books qua books, as well as about that book in particular, having a sort of inner value, even inner essence.  At the time, I thought my father was crazy, but I did as he said.  Only later did I connect his behavior with what I see now in how Japanese people handle things in general.

So, in the context of buildings and cities, the same applies: everything well taken care of, almost in perfect condition.  Everything is clean.  After a terrorism scare some years ago, perhaps the sarin gas attacks, the city of Tokyo got rid of public trash cans.  And yet, trash on the ground is seen rarely, or only at certain times of the day:  people feel "dirty" when they throw stuff on the ground; and the city itself makes it a priority to keep parks, trains and streets clean.  If a park gets dirty/polluted, not only will it be unpleasant for people, but the "God of Parks", and the "God of That Park In Particular", will be sad.

One caveat:  My mother's friend who in Tokyo in the late 60's for a year said that the city was a mess and stunk, chaotic, something like Shanghai or Beijing supposedly are today.  I have yet to hear someone else say that, but it could very well be true.  Even so, it might only have been a regrettable and exceptional but unavoidable phase in Japan's hyperaggressive industrialization, such as the episode of intense air pollution in the 60s and 70s.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 12:15:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
From my viewpoint (I can say it now), Japan is not an Urban civilization while China is. Some part of the Chinese knowledge went to Japan in old times as the fractal sense (or holographic) of the City and buildings (the part being the whole)...

But the local animus overrode it in the feeling of impermanency... The building should be a frozen state of a movement of gravity, not a balanced state as we would think of. A building is a threat to Nature if it becomes permanent.

While in the historical feudal system there were big cities with a Chinese sort of grid, it was mostly the influence of the occidental states (Er... Mostly the Anglo-Saxon ones :-) ) that led them to use industrial time tools for building and designing urban areas (see, I don't really say cities).
It was felt as useful... Not as "nice" !

Being on a limited island where square meter is wealth, they do have a very high coding for social relations..! Still now I believe ?

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 12:43:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When I was a kid on the Kanto Plain (Yokota AFB), 1962-65, Tokyo was not particularly clean and Yokohama definitely smelled bad.  And I'm not talking about benjo ditches, which were everywhere and which I was accustomed to.  
by cambridgemac on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 10:17:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, I would not have believed it unless my mother's friend had told me so emphatically.  What you say confirms it.  I should ask my mother, who also lived in Japan for a few years in the late 60s.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 11:08:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are some areas where Japan has been enlightened -- the age-old forestry regulations which probably saved it from becoming deforested like other island countries (Ireland & Iceland would have benefited from a few thousand Tokugawa bureaucrats) and some of the recycling programs a few high-tech companies have launched are pretty amazing, but specifically in cities, I defy you to find ANY examples of a particular Japanese concern for "equilibrium or balance between Nature and Man."

Just one example: up until World War II, Tokyo was famous for its waterways and canals. Now even the Sumida River is mostly paved over. And in terms of trees and park space, there is simply no comparison between Tokyo and, to take the example I'm most familiar with, New York. Central Park alone has almost 200 species of trees and a diversity of bird and small mammal species greater than the entire Kanto region.

If I were going to mount a "religious/non-religious" theory of environmental relations, Japanese agnosticism is not what would inspire me.

   

by Matt in NYC on Sun Feb 25th, 2007 at 11:43:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Since the 19th century... I'll agree :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sun Feb 25th, 2007 at 12:17:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I remember hearing an anthropologist say that Japan's traditional organizational economic unit was the homestead, like Sweden or Ireland. A family would be based at the same homestead for centuries. This is a circum-polar (nordic) pattern.

Japan differs from China and the Mediterranean in this.

It seems odd to me because Japan is an irrigation culture based on rice, or so I had thought.

by John Culpepper on Sun Feb 25th, 2007 at 04:44:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's a mix... Artic culture originally, surely, with the Aïnus, but some real contact with proto-China  !
It's always more complicated when it's islands ! Each ripple crosses over many time, you loose track !

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sun Feb 25th, 2007 at 06:11:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I didn't mean to suggest an Arctic pattern, but a more Northerly one -- or perhaps it would be more correct to say, Old European -- I think the Basques, too, may have had homesteads. Of course there is mixture and overlay when you look at la longue duree! I think I remember hearing that some Japanese homesteads had remained in certain families for a thousand years and that in homestead cultures it was customary to go on pilgrimages.

It's not a field I know much about, myself.

by John Culpepper on Sun Feb 25th, 2007 at 06:58:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I remember hearing that some Japanese homesteads had remained in certain families for a thousand years and that in homestead cultures it was customary to go on pilgrimages.

That's an intriguing thought...anyone got any possible info?

I'm thinking...yes...you have the homestead, land, food, maybe some form of wealth stored up (not just money) over the years, so then someone wants to go...on a pilgrimage...they'll have the time...the homestead will not be left empty...

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Sun Feb 25th, 2007 at 07:12:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I heard it by chance on a taped recording of a conversation by the late anthropologist Conrad Arensberg. I believe he has written several text books, as well as a  definitive ethnography of Ireland (years ago).

As far as cities, I don't have any formal knowledge about city planning, but to me, the Mediterranean-European  pattern with numerous handsome squares setting off public gathering places, such as a guild hall or cathedral, is  most appealing -- with markets and recreation close by -- and lots of Parks.
 

by John Culpepper on Mon Feb 26th, 2007 at 09:00:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Originally those weren't Parks (that's an end of 19th century concept), but were often "Foirails" (fair grounds), either in, and most often on the border, of the city's limit.
Green because not so often used and not paved as the central piazza.

Still, you're right. :-) Public gathering spaces is one of those main quality of the Mediterranean city...

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Mon Feb 26th, 2007 at 10:04:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
but specifically in cities, I defy you to find ANY examples of a particular Japanese concern for "equilibrium or balance between Nature and Man."

Overall, you're right:  Tokyo is virtually a concrete jungle, with trees and greenery too few and far between.  Yet there are some ("ANY") examples, weak though they may be, of city-level efforts to inject some nature in the urban gray that you can't totally dismiss:

Yoyogi Park,


Meiji-jingu Garden


Shinjuku Garden
,

and, to a lesser extent, Ueno Park.

And an aerial view of Tokyo shows that it is not altogether barren of greenery (click on "Satellite" to view the image more clearly.)

If I were going to mount a "religious/non-religious" theory of environmental relations, Japanese agnosticism is not what would inspire me.

Rather than, or perhaps in addition to, "agnostic", I would say "non-monotheistic" and "non-dogmatic".  There is plenty of "theism" in Japan, if only the polytheistic/animistic/pantheistic kind.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Sun Feb 25th, 2007 at 10:47:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A very nice summary page of parks and gardens in Tokyo (although the ones towards the bottom are definitely way out from the city center, even if technically within the city's boundaries.)

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco on Sun Feb 25th, 2007 at 11:02:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wow, I followed the communitarianism link and got lost for a while.  I fell back into World Book mode, following links to other entries and then following links from those entries to other entries and ... Sorry, I wandered quite far afield for a while there.

Umm, I think I'm not a communitarian -- economically liberal but socially conservative -- but I may in fact be a social democrat, although all such terms have been so mucked about by straw man arguments and deliberate misrepresentation by those of opposing views that their meanings are very suspect, at least to my muddled mind.


We all bleed the same color.

by budr on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 02:52:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Eh, I don't know either what I am, reading those lines... But I was trying to understand some of those definitions in english. After all, my english was never raised to philosophical or high political levels.

Trying to clear my way through ET can, indeed, be challenging for my rusted english ! :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 08:24:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

REG: Yeah. All right, Stan. Don't labour the point. And what have [the Romans] ever given us in return?!
XERXES: The aqueduct?
REG: What?
XERXES: The aqueduct.
REG: Oh. Yeah, yeah. They did give us that. Uh, that's true. Yeah.
COMMANDO #3: And the sanitation.
LORETTA: Oh, yeah, the sanitation, Reg. Remember what the city used to be like?
REG: Yeah. All right. I'll grant you the aqueduct and the sanitation are two things that the Romans have done.
MATTHIAS: And the roads.
REG: Well, yeah. Obviously the roads. I mean, the roads go without saying, don't they? But apart from the sanitation, the aqueduct, and the roads--
COMMANDO: Irrigation.
XERXES: Medicine.
COMMANDOS: Huh? Heh? Huh...
COMMANDO #2: Education, Health...
COMMANDOS: Ohh...
REG: Yeah, yeah. All right. Fair enough.
COMMANDO #1: And the wine.
COMMANDOS: Oh, yes. Yeah...
FRANCIS: Yeah. Yeah, that's something we'd really miss, Reg, if the Romans left. Huh.
COMMANDO: Public baths.
LORETTA: And it's safe to walk in the streets at night now, Reg.
FRANCIS: Yeah, they certainly know how to keep order. Let's face it. They're the only ones who could in a place like this.
COMMANDOS: Hehh, heh. Heh heh heh heh heh heh heh.
REG: All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
XERXES: Brought peace.
REG: Oh. Peace? Shut up!

Monty Python, Life of Brian

Sorry, I couldn't help!

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 05:20:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Chuckles- I didn't remember that part !!!
They have forgotten the "Theatre", as culture in the form of epic poems, plays, and games ( the famed Panem et Circenses)... They would have loved TV shows (snark)!

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 06:12:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fantastic! Thak you for this article!!

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 06:08:39 AM EST
Wow, you "pushed" it to front page...! I'm much to shy for that :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 08:48:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Most interesting diary, margouillat.  Much food for thought.  This one goes in my hotlist for future reference.

I come from a long line of rural folk.  We have always lived outside the city and viewed it with some suspicion.  As a child growing up, I remember "going to town" with my grandparents.  It was a major event that only happened once or twice a month.  They would get up very early and drive the 15 km or so to the nearest town.  They would try very hard to do all their accumulated business and shopping needs in one day and get back home by nightfall.  

The feeling back then, not so long ago really, was very much of traveling to another country, an alien place where we did not belong.  And that was just the nearest town, not so big as towns go, perhaps five thousand people or so.  The City, Oklahoma City, was perhaps a three hour drive away.  They only went there once a year, if that, in the most extraordinary circumstances.  

Our attitudes about going to town, about The City, have modified somewhat in succeeding generations, but the underlying sense that urban centers are an alien place, somewhere we do not belong, still colors our thinking even today.  I live on a small acreage a few kilometers outside the town where I work.  I have lived in one town or another in my life, though never a real city.  I have never really felt at home there.  Perhaps my perspective is not so far from the Angle or Saxon who travelled to the nearest village only when the needs of commerce demanded it.

I have argued with friends that the Old Testament can be read in a very different, not so religious, context if we think of it from a similar perspective.  If you read past all the angry monotheist themes, it can be seen as the chronicle of a nomadic, tribal, pastoral people coming in from the desert and learning to live in "the city."  Much of the stern moralism that pervades the Bible in general and the Old Testament in particular can be read as the painful adjustment of a close-knit, tribal society to the unsettling exposure to multi-cultural influences of urban life.  Or so it seems to me.

We all bleed the same color.

by budr on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 07:31:17 AM EST
We'll do a swap.  You come stay in the very very centre of the city with me...if I can come out to the farm with you...

You'd enjoy the centre.  It's the peripheries that are dangerous...and every area has its peripheries I think...where it meets another area...and sometimes those are the most interesting places.  The best pub in Brighton is less than two minutes from the station...as are another, er, six to ten pubs...so...which one is the best?

(Cough...The Evening Star!...cough)

yes...it's about danger, no?  Not sure who's doing what to whom where when and why?  In cities people howl...I learned that.  But often they're country folk finally getting to...howl...ach...trouble is we live on different continents, so maybe I'm not comparing like with like?  People here--where I live--like NY and SF, so those are probably the best comparisons...but super huge, I think...where I "live" takes forty minutes to walk from one end to the other...going on two hours...for a sense of space...well...okay...it's a long walk to the city edge, but the central edge...spreads along the coast...narrow and long...with some stretches...ach worra great diary!  Got me thinking a whole lot of thoughts...the city states...yoiks!  I have to rush...

I no make-a ze sense...!

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 07:41:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Most of todays urban dwellers have a countryside family past, one way or another... :-)
But why did all those people shed their local origins to join the "Big City" ?
Agricultural crisis for one... But often the feeling that "things" couldn't be done in the village... (the Hollywood dream as of Norma Jeane)!

Before the Old Testament,  the "Epic of Gilgamesh" relates more accurately this shift in the society of that time (global warming or flood included)... When at the end of the Epic, Gilgamesh finds the Gods and asks for the immortality they had promised, they tell him to look behind him, on his recent progress and learnings he had to achieve to join them... And told him that it was better then individual immortality !

Somewhere in the text, Adam is a pub tenant with rooms and Eve the Madam of an army of girls to keep those rooms busy...! (He should have tried to keep Lilith, the first female of the species :-) )

This Epic was, as it seems the first "best seller" (from North of Africa to India) and the old testament has full chunks of it ( Esau and the lentils soup, Noah and the deluge, etc..)

As you can see, I'm a Gilgamesh fan... :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 08:43:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Great diary entry...

I would just point out how Henri Lefebvre would talk about the city-country dynamic.

I think he would say that until the nineteenth century, even the city was situated in a rural mindset.  City-dwellers knew the countryside was never far away and they realized that their urban energy was an accumulation of countryside production.

Modernity, however, has changed that.  In most of the developed world--and, importantly, in the "developing" world--"country folk" do not see themselves as primarily rural, but, rather, as producers for the city, for the market.  Lefebvre's point being that, while the city-rurual dynamic is in place in terms of physical space, the way humans think of themselves (no matter where they live) is completely urban.

Urban dwellers interested in sustainability now find themselves in the ironic position of having to convince rural folk to grow organic, skip petroleum-based fertilizers and pesticides, and "get in touch with the land."  This is not because farmers don't understand these concepts, but market forces have selected farmers over the last 150 years that embrace modernization and the "green revolution" (not green at all).  To compete with agribusiness and embrace seemingly rural values, farmers have had to adopt attitudes and self-defeating practices of fertilization associated with the urban in its worst forms.  So now enlightened urban dwellers realize they have to change their markets in order to influence those who see themselves as the producers for it.

(this is not to say that farmers were not producers for the city from the very beginning, simply that it was only certain farmers limited to nearby regions.  Transport has changed all that, and, more fundamentally, it has changed thier attitudes...)

Again, great work.

by andrethegiant on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 10:00:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree... :-)
The subject is so vast that I voluntary refrained citing the 19th century part... As it is also the "Time of Utopias" !

I'm not sure, however, that in terms of physical space every culture today relate in "urban" perceptions... Did you find that in Levebvre ? (must re-read his books-sigh!)

Those two point anyhow will surely be in some future diaries, as the way we perceive built space, symbolic attitudes, and a look in materials as "form carriers" :-)

And writing in english, even though I read it fluently, isn't so easy !

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 10:15:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But why did all those people shed their local origins to join the "Big City" ?

One of the great dilemmas for rural communities, at least in my country, has always been the great brain drain to the cities.  The general decline in the agrarian economies has meant diminished opportunities for young people.  At the same time, the lure of (at least perceived) greater opportunities in industrial or professional careers in urban centers has led many if not most rural youth to move away.  And it always seems that the best and brightest are the most likely to go.  

My job used to involve a lot of driving, all across western and southern Oklahoma.  A common and depressing aspect of that was the many, many small towns in rural Oklahoma that were and are in obvious decline.  Closed businesses, abandoned or poorly maintained housing, general signs of neglect and decline were all too common.  On the other hand, the larger urban centers of the state like Oklahoma City, Tulsa, and Norman, are thriving.  New business activity and new housing developments are the rule in all of our larger urban centers.  The contrast with rural areas is striking.

Over time it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.  As more and more of the younger generation moves away, general economic activity declines, resulting in further diminished opportunities for those who stay.  That seemingly inexorable trend has been a reality for most rural communities for a couple of generations now, at least, and probably much longer than that.

I suspect that none of the above is unique to my country or my state.

We all bleed the same color.

by budr on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 03:22:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 It's the consequence of the "de-sacrilizing" of the agriculture... The shift of values. It happened everywhere...!

The trouble is that the City needs this countryside ! While in the 19th century many small experiments were done with the relationship between the Big City and the countryside, none survived through the pressure of industry... And war!
Let's not forget that it's the 14-18 war that shifted France in the industrial time by killing most of the farmers. Society was definitely changed.

This one of the reasons I started these sort of diaries... Because we start a, so called, environmental era. That is still felt as fashion for most or as a nice motto for politicians.
One one side the "greens" that refuses any pragmatical project that doesn't serve their direct agenda, on the other the power of politics and wealth that will speak a lot but won't start the action... In the middle, most of us !

The era is a bit radicalized! There have been, there are, there will be, possibilities to think, and design a better territory... As a whole!
Not by peppering projects here and there, just to calm some voicing group. It's counter productive !

It is sad to say, but on such overall projects, people in Turkey, Syria, Lebanon and even Israel are much more attentive... Even if they don't have the capacity to start them.. Yet!

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 06:29:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What comments!

I don't know if it's sad to say that at least someone's beginning to (try to) do it.  Best practice and all that.  There maybe--somewhere--a generation on the rise (connected by...the internet! among other things--shared interests, approaches)...who can play the game...get voted back in.

I'm not an expert on the Green party, but as far as I understand its agenda it is all for sensible town planning among other things.  It's frustrating for me to see that when people come to choose, they refuse what they think might work--because it probably won't!  Vote for what you know!  So then it takes huge damage done by a party (Black Wednesday in the UK)...and then the voters think...hey, there's this other lot.  And all the other parties (and voices) shout:

No, no!  Over here!

Including the small nationalist parties, the racists, the revolutionaries, the single issue groups--

Well, I really don't know enough about the Green party.  Round our way they come over very reactionary...I think because they want to be seen as "listening to the people", though it seems the people are conservative with a small "c".  When they could be agitating for getting local farmers to supply produce direct to the area's schools, hospitals, care homes, council offices...

But they'll complain about the new parking regulations...

...as if they too care about the issues of car drivers...

coz they're so caring!

So local individuals make a difference, sometimes a big difference...

...so, yeah.  Yeah!  Some nations (oh how I don't like the concept of the nation...such corrupted routs)...

well, cough!

I like the concept of the city state, city states, cities as centres, as support to the...areas between...coz there will always be areas between...

It'll take the public wanting real change that will push real change.  Seen already in wind power.  But also seen in the sense of injustice among english (british?) car drivers....because the govt. has it in for drivers.

No!  For driving...too much...unnecessarily.  And then we're back to town planning.

I'm waiting for someone to build the boom housing....called...I dunno...a...homesite?  All eco-housing, all wired up and electricity supplied by wind/solar/water/other renewable source.  The houses capture rain water, there's agricultural land...

...build 'em (with perhaps many grants available?), then decide to...

...sell them to the wealthy (lotsa cash!)
...give them to...people chosen out of a hat!
...lease them to co-operatives, using an LLP (Chris Cook!) to maintain the houses, and maybe getting leasees to sign agreements (a la "no domestic animals, no visitors after 10 pm" in the laws around here [well, used to be, maybe they've changed])

But yes, all kinds of tensions rising, but also all kinds of old tensions maybe being dissipated (between the old and the young perhaps...also...and between men and women...perhaps...in some ways...

...The age of Aquarius!  

according to the Arabs, is a constellation associated with the rainy season of the ancient middle east. Persian, Syrian and Turkish languages call it the Water Bucket. The Egyptians associated these stars with Khnum, their god of water, who caused the Nile to overflow when he dipped his water bucket into the river. Remember the importance of the overflowing Nile as it brought nutrients and fertility to the crops. The Egyptian heiroglyph for water is the same as the sign used by astrologers for Aquarius, a pair of wavy lines suggesting the surface of a river. At times the constellation has been depicted as an ass carrying two water lugs on its back.

The Greeks held to this same idea, but named the constellation for Ganymede, the Trojan boy carried off to Mount Olympus to serve as cup-bearer to the gods.

Aquarius is the first sign of the zodiac in India, where its patron saint is Varuna. This ancient god was originally the all-powerful lord of all the heavens and creator of the stars. But later he was looked on as just god of the water who looked down on the Earth through the thousand eyes of the stars. From his throat issued the seven streams of heaven. Varuna patrols his realm on a fabulous steed, half crocodile and half bird. So he is quite able to patrol both the air and the sea.

http://www.eastbayastro.org/2000/0900/r0900-2.htm

...you know, I'm presuming on your diary...on yer goodself, margouillat!

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 07:58:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If it can help for a good sleep without nightmares... I know quite a lot of students who learn to design those "urban" eco- social housing in historical cities at school.... :-)

So do not abandon all hope, the Aquarius (Hair's music) might be there still :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 08:14:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
All sorts of things snap into place.
Thanks
by cambridgemac on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 10:19:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A great, great diary, margouillat.  I, too have a question.  It's about those hundreds of kilometres long tunnels.

They quickly evolved in a very sophisticated way, as some gigantic tunnels (hundred of Km long) allowing for four workers to work in it with air and light (some still exist), reducing evaporation and harnessing the water resource!

Do some of the hundred-km-long ones still exist?  Could you offer some names/links?  (Coz I'm fascinated.)

Re: the city as village, well, I've always thought of the centre of the city as a village with excellent amenities.  But town/city in England was a religious designation.  A city has a cathedral.

And I dunno but I like the idea of the city connecting out to its food sources in the countryside, and also keeping food inside its borders, along pathways, in gardens...green cities...  So I suppose the geography and the surrounding agricultural possibilities...work to give each city a "flavour"...on large rivers you can transport a lot by boat, but if the river is small but the surrounding hills and valleys are fertile...and oh yes...I live by the sea, so ports...ships...

Worra great great diary, I'm rambling.  Thanks, I enjoyed reading it, the tone, the approach...I'm rambling...and also this afternoon I will take the bus out of the city centre to the edge of the city and once again view this place...

...an earthship, power independent, it needs quite a bit of land for food...I liked the environment, but my wife and daughter didn't...like you say, utopias are always populated by our friends and not our enemies...did you say that?  I realised this when I realised that by getting rid of the car (e.g. by petrol being too expensive)...the city would soon resound with the sound of a thousand thousand tiny motorbikes revving at lights, teenagers on hybrid bikes making a racket...in yer face...but that's okay...better than the car...

...ach oh aye!  Great diary!

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 07:33:19 AM EST
You might be interested then by this PDF on the "Karez" system from Iran to China...

In the south of Italy at "Matera" you'll find the re-use of dew cisterns in troglodytes dwellings... (another sort of water use on limestones pateau) :-)

Thanks for the praise... And for the whinnying motorbikes (I have an old thumping model) :-)


"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 08:22:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This very old system named Qanat was invented in Persia (it is mentioned by Herodot). It is also named Foggara (plural Foggaret) in the Sahara, where you can still find many of them functioning.

Qanat

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 05:43:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Kudos for a great diary, and I too have a question:

There are only four major urban civilization recorded.

    * The middle-east from where most of us of advanced countries have inherited the concept... Tigres and Euphrates (The reference to Gilgamesh often seen as the father of the City concept or at least as it's vehicle in litterature).
    * The Indus and the Gange one (not yet fully recorded) with Mohenjo-Daro and now several cities discovered i what is also called the Harrapa civilization.
    * The Yellow river in China, Huanghe that is the Chines civilization cradle
    * The high plateau of Andes... (Uh???) Hey, how come? Where is the hot desert and the river ?... Well in South America the problem (as in France today) was more about the crop... Corn ! That is highly demanding of water! And on a limestone plateau that's not a simple task!

Could you comment a bit on why the city states of ancient Mesoamerica (e.g., Tical, Palenque, Montealban, Teotihuacan, etc.) don't count? Is it because the core function of these cities seems to have been religious and ritual? They were built around temples and other sites of worship and ritual, and while they usually developed peripheries of human dwellings (apparently housing tenths of thousands of people in some cases), housing a human population never seems to have been the primary function of these cities. Of course, it may be equally appropriate to view these as instantiating a radically different concept of the city - since they did develop a lot of the same structural features as cities in other places.

If you can't convince them, confuse them. (Harry S. Truman)

by brainwave on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 10:31:15 AM EST
They are recorded... :-)
The Altiplano, next to Titicaca lake is considered (rightly or wrongly, I can't say) as the origin point of the Tihuanaco culture.

Then, Manco Capac and Mama Occlo, Vircocha's offsprings will begin the Inca's civilization. That Mesoamerican building culture will go further north to Peru, Ecuador, and Colombia, as east to the Amazon basin (now Brazil) !
The original Mesoamerican City would have been a bit more of the Egyptian model ( quite unique in middle-east) where political and religious power would have been de-centralized in several cities (instead of a "state city"). The city of the dead or it's religious counterparts being built with stone while the still half nomadic population in wood (i.e. organic) buildings.

What's left is mostly pyramids in each case :-)

Housing, wasn't in history the first need of the City, it often came with troubled times of war when people lived behind the "great walls"... And stayed! Most farmers would live in his farm but have a symbolic representation in the "Palace".
Even later, as in India's Fatehpur Sikri most of the "common" people lived in organic or non glazed houses. Here, as in Mesoamerica, there was a water problem  (in the original design) and the city was left to nature...!


"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 12:24:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Uh, not sure I follow. I may be misunderstanding, though. Mesoamerica is the cultural and linguistic area that reaches from the Valle de Mexico into Honduras and Costa Rica. There are nearly 4,500 miles between Mexico City and Lima as the crow flies, and as far as I know there are no demonstrable direct connections between Mesoamerica and any of the Andean civilizations.

If you can't convince them, confuse them. (Harry S. Truman)
by brainwave on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 12:54:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Then I don't know...!
I'll have a look if I can find something :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 01:06:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok... Seems to be my fault ! As in the Indus-Gange case where there is maybe influence or not, the South America urban civilizationS have two geographically different territories... But they do have the same water and corn problem... That's why there has been this mix-up... Sorry!

I'm more "fluent" with the other side of the world... The Americas is a bit of a "mystery" for many of us (pre-colombian times)...
We usually discover it though Tintin :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 01:30:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The individual housing dream has pushed to the development of thousand  of "new" villages ("lotissements" in french)

Could you explain more about what lotissements are?  I read the entry in French Wikipedia, but it was not clear from that whether they are truly autonomous "villages": i.e. autonomous economically, in terms of energy supply, food, etc.  From your diary, it seems that people actually commute outside of the villages for work.  If so, they are clearly not autonomous in that sense.

Rather than Israeli kibbutzim or ecovillages, are lotissements more like low-cost versions of "gated communities"?  What do you think of the idea of intentional communities?

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 12:35:53 PM EST
As I understand it, it is nothing more than an area open to development by a developer or a city, from less than 10 houses to in the thousands for the biggest. It is a dormitory made of individual houses, no economic, cultural or social activities.
The grouping is simply because of economy in scale in the infrastructure needed for the urbanization .

La répartie est dans l'escalier. Elle revient de suite.
by lacordaire on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 01:48:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The picture at the bottom of your diary is a crime against humanity indeed. In the Netherlands not too dissimilar things are called 'Vinex locations'.

I see them as hell on earth, but apparently the people living there are happy with them. Going by train from my old suburbanized village to Amsterdam I always passed the Vinex "Weidevenne" near Purmerend. I remember a couple of middle-aged English women talking about the 'nice houses' so 'near to the water'. It's beyond me how anyone can like these things, but maybe I'm just too judgemental.

You can see plenty of the atrocities through a google image search.

Really great diary. I still dream of my self-sufficient house by the riverbank one day, when I retire in 40 years or so. But it's the city for me now. It's great to read about these things -- decentral energy production in the city, community, organisation, design... it's a way of thinking I don't grok yet at all.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 01:33:09 PM EST
Eh, eh... I think that if you click on them you can 5 images I was thinking to use... This one as another terrible one is from Mexico but could be elsewhere...!
Thank you for the link... As here in France we always thought that the Netherlands was "the" good example of "good" architecture... :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 01:40:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is, of course, great Dutch architecture. There is a great amount of thinking in city architecture about social spaces, renovation of city blocks, inclusiveness, etcetera. There are no places of exclusion like the (new) American ghetto or the French banlieu. This is mostly the case for city architecture, though. Through the google image search, you can see some of the same thinking applied to suburban housing, here.

The problem with this Vinex housing is that it was thought up by bureaucrats for the middle classes, for whom avantguardist or just progressive thinking is not thought to be relevant. A kind of soft bigotry. It's just house, tree, car, and how do we give them their own without turning the whole country into an American style suburb. More thinking was applied to the management of masses and transportation than to how these people would live.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 02:02:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've spent about 1/3rd of my life in American suburbs and that photo makes ME cringe. Here in the US there is at least a minimum effort to differentiate the houses, and in many neighborhoods the houses are all distinct. Marketers understand the desire for individuality in the US, so while everyone may be consuming the exact same thing, at least everyone has a slightly different color of paint on the outsides of their houses. If you combine American concepts of automation and mechanization (the ability to throw up an entire neighborhood in short order in this case) with European bureaucracies (I think that complex is government built?), the above photo is a predictable result.

I see them as hell on earth, but apparently the people living there are happy with them.

Ripping on the suburbs is a form of elitism (of which I am also guilty). When looking back to the origin of the suburbs I absolutely cannot blame people for their enthusiasm. Could you honestly tell someone living in cramped, noisy, crime ridden cities like NYC in the early 20th century that they can't have that affordable house in the suburbs due to its poor aesthetics, unsustainable nature, and lack of neighborhood community? If you are for a more egalitarian society, doesn't that have to extend to material concerns as well?

There is no shortage of counterpoints to be made, of course, that can and do fill many books. Once the automation, energy, and materials were available for a mass market, though, they were absolutely going to be used for that purpose. Whether or not it could have been done in a different manner more suitable to human happiness is the only question I am interested in now.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 03:39:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The point is that there shouldn't be any suburbs !
They exist because the Cities capacity of quick changes started to decline. Most of them started in the 19th century.

We had some speeches in the French Assembly in 1840 that tells of African villages at the doors of Paris (no African people there, mostly from center of France), that it was a shame... That we should build transient cities (Cité de Transit) to teach those people about how to live in the City... On century after we did build them !

Maybe that's why I speak of the "drift" of the City :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 06:38:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We have sort of American-style suburbs as well, except the plots tend to be smaller because there is just less space available. The photo in Margouillat's diary was taken in Mexico, though, the Dutch "Vinex" locations tend to be a bit more diverse and have a bit bigger houses, but the idea is similar. They're built by private contractors and designed by private architects, but the concept is mandated by the government.

A further difference with many American suburbs is that the houses in Europe tend to be built to last, in America there is often a lot of cheap, throwaway material being used on otherwise quite sizeable houses, which is a strange attitude (I think) to housing. An extreme focus on the exterior, while neglecting the character. This fits in with the fake plastic capitalism of America -- treating houses as perishable commodities with built-in obsolescence.

(this is probably a rather prejudiced sweeping generalisation based upon watching too many librul hollywood movies, but I think part of it sticks)

Your point about elitism is spot-on. Still, as margouillat says, it's undesirable to have people living in suburbia. So you have to think about the institutions and the cultural image that lead to people to live in them.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sun Feb 25th, 2007 at 08:20:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Another question:

If somebody asks me, I vote for the City... And spread along the idea that before long, "individual housing will be a crime against humanity"...

At first I thought you meant "private residences"; now I think you mean "stand alone houses"...

I think both add something to a city--balanced by a perhaps majority of city-supported/maintained properties...I'm not sure of the numbers/dynamics so would be interested in accounts of how the mix works out.

Somehow (not sure how) a city needs to cater for all tastes, so a row of individual houses also makes a city statement, as does a tall block of flats (side point here about a friend of mine who said--I think it was--eight (or was it seven?) floors (found across Europe) is a natural maximum height for buildings, with shops on the ground floor and residences above.)  It isn't so much the type of accomodation (unless one type predominates)...coz students need and prefer a type, as do old couples, old singles, young singles, young couples...workers, the unemployed, those on sickness benefit, the well-off, the not well-off...it's the social space...the mixing of cultures within the space...that gives the city...its citiness...

My off the top of my head definition of a workable social environment:

--nature a bus ride away (or less!)
--a pub two minutes away
--a shop two minutes away
--low low car speed (usage!)
--high pedestrian movement
--music venue
--theatre
--cinema
--variety of buildings
--train access
--light industries
--trade out and in
--you could walk to the very centre in twenty minutes [okay, half an hour] (if you're young and fit...those less young and fit--cough cough--me!--have to live closer)

You could build that structure and keep small...and I'd still enjoy it, I think.  I lived in a place of < 40,000 that had all the above.  The cinema was a yearly club; the town pulled about 100,000 (my guess) from the surrounding villages...it also had large industry (Olivetti), and when that collapsed the town turned inward...became small, losing the facilities, the cinema club shut down...there are tiny suburbs growing up in the villages around...

Now I want to read your diary about Gilgamesh!  I bought a translation a few years ago, sort of enjoyed it, but...I didn't find in it what you have...not yet...

I'll re-read it in anticipation...

"O Enkidu, you were the axe at my side
in which my arm trusted, the knife in my sheath,
the shield I carried, my glorious robe.,
the wide belt around my loins, and now
a harsh fate has torn you from me, forever.
Beloved friend, swift stallion, wild deer,
leopard ranging in the wildnerness--
Enkidu, my friend, swift stallion, wild deer,
leopard ranging in the wilderness--
together we crossed the mountains, together
we slaughtered the Bull of Heaven, we killed
Humbaba, who guarded the Cedar Forest--
O Enkidu, what is this sleep that has seized you,
that has darkened your face and stopped your breath?"

Gilgamesh, Book VIII, translated by Stephen Mitchell



Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 05:59:45 PM EST
Density is the key word...!
A 5 to 6 levels old buildings in the Marais district of Paris are three time (at least ) more dense (ratio of built m2 per parcel of land m2 to which you attribute a given ratio of people per build m2) then the worse "banlieue" with  high rise towers and very long buildings...!

The latest is considered more Hygienistic (sun, space, gardens)! But today the highest cost per m2 is in the Marais !

Speaking of Paris and all those homeless people... If SNCF and RATP (train and metro/bus) would give up the land they don't use today... Almost one quarter of Paris could be built for people.
If we covered only half of the Périphérique (the ring road around Paris) we could add 1/6th to Paris again...
Then at last if we added two to three levels to the old Hausmann buildings (easy today), we wouldn't even need most of the large suburbia around Paris...!

It's (as always) a planning matter... With most decision maker in politics that changes every 4 years... You cannot project very far ahead in time! With most of these territorial responsibilities left over to mayors, you just can't do it ! As it can't be local... Anymore.

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 06:57:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh... I didn't mention good old Gilgamesh... :-)
Well it's an Epic... Quite hard to read! (I do have students who finish the book, but very few)...

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 07:46:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for this interesting diary.

I am however surprised to see you limit the first urban civilisations to four. It seems that cities have emerged in many places around the same period of time.

The Hatti and, after them, the Hittites had built big cities in Çatal Hüyük, Nersa/Kültepe and Hattusha, as well as the Egyptians in Thebes. The Jiroft civilisation is also another example.

   

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 06:03:35 PM EST
Ah... What is in the "records" is not always the truth :-)
 In your citation, there are two different parts... So we'll leave Egypt for now!
 Çatal Hüyük (Turkey) as the Jiroft (Iran) are on a crescent from the Tiger to the Indus. There is an ongoing war between archeologists today to know if the influence was by the South or by the North.  And about the Hittites too, as Turkish Nationalists tend to rewrite history.

Under the dunes of the Taklamakan desert (Gobi) some findings may change those viewpoints :-)
And two third of Turkey isn't yet explored in matter of very old ruins (tells and such). The Anatolian country might hold some surprises yet.

The point was not really to argue about who was there first (Chinese) but why an otherwise very well striving population (for those times) changed for a new system of managing space and territories...
The four points are the four "different" urban civilization, who then had a different impact on history.

Twenty years ago, the Indus/Gange wasn't even mentioned... Mohenjo-Daro was a "peculiarity"!
So in a few years we'll surely have to modify that classification :-)

Still, I'm not sure that cities emerged in many places in a sufficient time range. They mostly emerged when there was a water management problem... There are some cases (north of Africa among others), where the water problem didn't provoke such a change and the agricultural life went on without high output... Maybe the constraints weren't high enough ,

Egypt is a different case, because it was in the range of influence and that it's cities were of a progressive model vs the Mesopotamian one... They directly jumped to the de-centralized system with each city having it's own share of power and a highway called the Nile :-)

But then I would speak of that all night :-)


"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 07:29:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
interesting diary, ta margouillet.

as it's obvious which came first, i think of cities as evolved from farming communities, in turn evolved from nomadic living.

suburbs could not have existed without cheap fuel and high numbers of cars, as they would be a huge challenge to serve without public transport, though it would be energetically cheaper than the 'cancer alleys' full of crawling, choking traffic that ring every modern city with a haze of life-threatening gas.

but suburbs were irresistible, after seeing cityscapes for a few generations out the grimy windows.

and healthier for the children, dear!

at first it was a snobby thing, and some still are, but during the 60's in england, 'suburban' was a terrible insult, whether applied to decor or people.

coz most suburbs were like croydon, not wimbledon.

so it was prices affordable to the young's first house, still within a brain-numbing rail haul into the maw, the caldera of creativity that is the centre, the mothernode, the octopus beak and brain.

too much city life is hard on the health, and the people who seemed to be best positioned to recieve the most benefit from the city, seem to be those who arrive fresh and hale from the commonwealth, or the dales, or cornwall...

or the 2% whose lifestyles permit the finest accoutrements. taxis everywhere, to whom the city is a smooth, well-oiled machine to satisfy any conceivable desire, no matter how bizzarre or exotic.

after the high accountability of living in a place where not only do you know everyone, but all your relations know everything about all their relations too, and nothing escapes often prurient notice, the city's allure is also anonymity, the relative invisibiilty of the crowd, in which mighty emotions were shared, in colosseum and cathedral, or in the crowded squares and markets.

markets created towns.

now look at dubai...it's a town creating a market!

cities accrued and concentrated wealth through adding value by education, and by secrecy, as in the guilds, the masons and the institutions of government, ecclesiastic, academic, monarchic, administrational and militaristic -easy to defend was a prime consideration, viz italy's hilltowns, like cortona.

the inability to make cities healthy places to live may change with peak oil, and possibly less car fumes, tho' if we return to coal for heat it would be a nightmare.
i remember the pea-soup yellow fogs of 50's london, and there are many more living there now.

tho i heard the thames is getting cleaner.

with telecommuting, travel costs that truly reflect the energy they burn, and the widespread rollout of highspeed broadband, i am betting on a resutgence of country life.

as petrochemical farming dies out, the countryside will be much less polluted, rivers will be fishable, reservoirs will be used to store rain and runoff, wildlife will return as more biomass land is planted.

travelling will become the mindblowing experience it was before homogenisation, and abandoned, once empty reaches of habitation will recolonise with those who have wearied of the bombardment of data the city insists upon, and who value the peace to collate and peruse what they have learned.

cities will plant many more trees and make parks, roof gardens, balconies for flowers, and ugly buildings will be covered by creeping vines.

instead of division between centre and periphery, i foresee a flattening out of the differences between city and country...

both/and, not either/or.

a balanced childhood would combine wide experiences of both, so people are comfortable with either, as both -and all the burbs in between - can be interesting as points along the continuum between society and solitude, both so necessary for survival and equilibrium.

thanks for letting me share what my crystal ball is showing!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 06:55:28 PM EST
It is precisely because we can change cities today (cleaner, cheaper, etc.) that their impact on our politics of land management must be thought again... From the origins !
Water was the main incentive for the first cities. Energy seems to be the one today (water still is, though). We've been through centuries of different experimentations in such matters. We have the technical means to do about anything...
So what do we really want ? Knowing that what's good for Croydon might create some problems in Aberdeen (Aah the lassies of Aberdeen!).

The French have coined a new territorial management law called the "Loi SRU" (Solidarité et Renouvellement Urbain) that for the first time includes not only sustainability, but also major risks (industrial, natural, etc.), and economical development.
It is quite a breakthrough... but it 's different parts are not followed by most mayors because it's seems to complicated... And because they have to rewrite the local rules !

This could be an European incentive, if we would allow some thoughts on our differences on such territorial management to find a common ground... (ground is the word :-) )

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sat Feb 24th, 2007 at 07:43:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
i saw a great documentary on the blues on cult tv again last night.

they went to the old downtown chicago, and it was gutted, no real life, just swirling garbage and car fumes, boarded up shopfronts...

ripe for gentrification, iow.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Feb 25th, 2007 at 05:05:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
of ProgressiveHistorians, a community site dedicated to the intersection of history and politics, I would be honored if you would cross-post this excellent diary there.

The Crolian Progressive: as great an adventure as ever I heard of...
by Nonpartisan on Sun Feb 25th, 2007 at 09:46:01 PM EST
Thank you for the invitation... :-)
I'll be extremely busy the next two days, but will certainly cross post just after !

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Mon Feb 26th, 2007 at 02:23:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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