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A Friedman and a half and 42 - Open Thread

by Jerome a Paris Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 01:16:29 PM EST

And on the third hand, while today's Russia may be a crazy quilt of capitalist czars, mobsters, nationalists and aspiring democrats, it is not the totalitarian Soviet Union. It has more than a touch of the authoritarianism of postwar Gaullist France and a large spoonful of the corruption and messiness of postwar Italy -- when those countries emerged from World War II as less than perfect democracies.

But 60 years later, after huge growth in their per capita incomes, France and Italy now help to anchor Western Europe. For all of their shortcomings, their postwar governments provided the context for the true democratic agent of change to come of age -- something that takes 9 months and 21 years to produce -- a generation raised on basically free markets and free politics. I still think Russia will follow a similar path -- in time.

Hey, France and Italy did it, Russia can be free too. This is an open thread. You are free to say what you want, even nice things about Friedman.


Display:
For some reason, I am able to actually read the doc, despite it being behind the sub. wall

(login as dailykos@dailykos.com, password: dailykos)

Reminder: a Friedman = 6 month, i.e. the time needed for thigns to get better in Iraq.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 01:19:16 PM EST
Boeing published a very interesting brochure about their current projects(pdf), especially the building of the B-787'Dreamliner'. Worth a look for figures , graphs and spectacular pictures.

But the very first graph they show is this :

Everybody still is swallowing the new figures of Bush his budget.
Boeing illustrates very clearly the militarisation of the economy.

The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)

by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 01:34:51 PM EST
Didn't Boeing buy a bunch of military contractors in that period?
by MarekNYC on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 03:45:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thomas "Flat Earth" Friedman: "Economy for the dummies, by a dummy"


"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 01:47:11 PM EST
To top off what is apparently Eat The Poor Week, NPR aired a story yesterday on All Things Considered in which they ...considered the option of poverty being a good thing.   They introduced the piece talking about Democrats caring about the poor, considering it a moral issue, but economists, who know about these things, think that poverty is not only necessary, it is a good thing.

For those of you with flip-top heads, who can take out your brains and give them a good rinsing off, I present to you the esteemed Gary Becker, featured expert on the topic:

"Well, it's unfair," Becker acknowledges. "The accident of birth, the accident of the genes we have, the accident of parents we have: It is unfair."
But, Becker asks, what can the nation do about the inequalities of parents and genes? "Unless you think you're going to start switching babies around across families, as Plato recommended," he jokes. "You can't do that."

Arguing Against the Dangers of a Fairer Economy

Becker says it's dangerous for the government to force the economy to be fairer. Programs that take money away from the rich to give to the poor, Becker argues, mess with incentives. High-school kids may not be as motivated to go to college. Some college students might decide the cost of a higher degree isn't worth it. Over time, the United States could end up with a workforce that's not as highly educated, not as skilled. The country might not be as competitive. The economy might not grow as fast.

Someone recently recommended to me the Becker-Posner Blog, which I guess is supposed to be fair and balance because Posner is a lefty.  Regrettably, I have more pressing things to do than watch one rich old white man who is pro-poverty exchange words with another rich old white guy who is pro-selling kids on the free market.  Like, popping some popcorn or something...


Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 02:10:21 PM EST
Richard Posner, lefty? That's snark, right? I guess the reason to read them is that they're two of the most influential right wing intellectuals in the US. Might not be pleasant reading, but it's nice to know how the other side thinks.
by MarekNYC on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 03:44:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sheer snark.

I know what you are saying about "how the other side thinks," but I feel like I see the materialization of how the other side thinks every day, all around me.

And the thing is, so do they.  We both work at this luxurious university surrounded by some of the most impoverished communities in the country.  Impoverished and black.  So I find that quip about the inequality of genes especially offensive.  

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 04:30:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Deliberately Bell Curve.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 04:39:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Posner is interesting as a right winger because occassionaly he gets it right on a number of topics (like IP) or rather, shows convincing right wing arguments for causes you'd think are left wing. Calling him left is eehm, odd, though. I seem to remember the cornerites at national review nominating him as their favourite right wing intellectual. Or something.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 05:36:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you have an URL for his stuff about IP?
by Laurent GUERBY on Sat Feb 10th, 2007 at 05:42:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Here's an old post from the Becker-Posner blog on the topic.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sat Feb 10th, 2007 at 11:14:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks!
by Laurent GUERBY on Sat Feb 10th, 2007 at 05:15:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What a load of bull, especially the non-sequitur about redistribution harming the general level if education.

There are probably system reasons why a moderately unequal distribution of income is unavoidable or even good for the general march of the economy as a whole, but poverty? Absolute poverty is an unadulterated evil, and in terms of income it's not that expensive to lift everyone out of relative poverty, which cannot but be good for the economy unless cheap, abundant labour is a goal.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 04:04:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You can also summarise it as "One mustn't let the riff raff in."

The depravity of these kinds of views isn't nearly as shocking as the fact that they're being aired in public without a firestorm of criticism.

People should be pointing and laughing at these goons throughout the media, instead of taking them seriously.

But when we have any number of clowns being fobbed off on the public as analysts, pundits and deep thinkers, the fact that they're being taken seriously has a kind of depressing inevitability to it.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 04:47:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Remember re-education camps and the gulag?

This is the kind of crap that inspired them, when left unchecked for a couple of decades.

Tom could use the rigorous diet anyway.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 06:24:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It seems Thomas L Friedman mellowed with time towards Russia but his article does not worth to discuss as it contain nothing but rhetorical questions - something like wishful "We democrats of Russia are waiting when you Americans will drop the price of oil. It's only our hope". (In back translation, from www.inosmi.ru) Such a nonsence.

One news for Migeru - I thought you was interested in chess news, do you know that Association of Chess Professionals and possibly FIDE are starting investigation about alleged Topalov cheating. Unfortunately it is only Russian language news, but it refers to article in Suddeutche Zeitung by chess master Martin Brightigan who noticed in Viijk-en-Zee tournament suspicious activities of Mr Topalov and his trainer Silvio Danailov. Mr Danailov already filed libel suit against Brightigan.  

by FarEasterner on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 02:26:03 PM EST
That's just what the Chess world needs...

I have to say I did follow chess news in my teens [which is why I knew about the Kasparov schism], but I often think the years I spent playing semi-seriously would have been better spent playing Go.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 04:21:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"That's just what the Chess world needs..."

Agree, but I am not sure about results - very probably Mr Topalov will go out unscathed.

And thanks to afew for his Roots and MSM column. It is very insightful, forced to me think about corroding role of MSM in countries claimed to be democracies and I wrote a couple of posts in the end. I hope the column will hang around for a while for it is touching fundamental questions.

by FarEasterner on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 04:38:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Those are interesting comments about India and Russia, thanks. I'd like to get back to them tomorrow, if I may.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 04:51:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I actually meant it in a last-nail-in-coffin kind of way, but clearly accountability is a good thing.

I only read your comment about India, which I foundd reallybeye-opening. I need to read the other one.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 10th, 2007 at 04:06:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Computer are becoming better at go!

Migeru, you probably knew it already.
Software getting better at go

I was schocked, it means I have to study  again hoping to reach a higher level if I want to stay stronger than the machine. I thought I could lay back, me lazy me.

La répartie est dans l'escalier. Elle revient de suite.

by lacordaire on Sat Feb 10th, 2007 at 05:34:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The link seems to be broken... And no, I hadn't heard of that development. How strong is 'stronger'?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 11th, 2007 at 08:46:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Beating human on 9x9.
Anyway, google MOgo, or go and Montecarlo


La répartie est dans l'escalier. Elle revient de suite.
by lacordaire on Sun Feb 11th, 2007 at 07:05:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The raw link:
http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8585017

La répartie est dans l'escalier. Elle revient de suite.
by lacordaire on Sun Feb 11th, 2007 at 07:06:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In the "Eat the poor" serie, it was bonus day for BNP Paribas equity derivative teams today. A good day for my bank account ...
by Laurent GUERBY on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 02:31:12 PM EST
the drinks are on Laurent everybody!

(Make mine a double.)


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 05:29:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm just waiting, I guess, for America to emerge from that same authoritarianism of which the Oracle from Davos speaks.

If Russia's so bad, I wonder what exactly I've been enjoying this side of the Atlantic these past few years.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 03:37:47 PM EST
France was free and democratic before WWII. And before WWI. And postwar France was the IVth Republic, the opposite of an authoritarian regime.
by balbuz on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 04:12:41 PM EST
Meh. You should never try to confuse the pile driver point of a conservative fairy story by resorting to mere facts.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 04:48:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Firedman (nice typo) has been violently contemptuous of the French for a really long time, and, while it's just one more annoying thing in all that garbage he writes, it is, to me, one of the msot ridiculous bits of his whole persona.

I really need to unearth that article by the exile where they related the wonderful practical jokes they played on him in the late 90s...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 05:34:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bernard-Henri Lévy and Thomas Friedman are too much for me. Together, within 24 hours? Pity!

the authoritarianism of postwar Gaullist France, huh? So what was that about, you dummy? You mean the US didn't manage to take over France as a military protectorate (despite the fact that even the banknotes were printed in preparation) because De Gaulle stood in the way, is that what you mean? And the "messiness" of Italy, you mean the country that was run for many long years after the war by the CIA and their puppets, which was kinda messy?

Before I piss off American readers, believe me I don't mean to diminish one wit the contribution, the sacrifice, of Americans in the cause of freedom from Nazism. Nor even really to complain about some of the rather crude hegemonist views held in DC at the time. Just to wonder what this fuckwit ignorant wanker Friedman is still doing parading as the top op-ed writer of the US "newspaper of record". Finished. Apologies.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 04:15:48 PM EST
I'm calling him a fuckwit and misspelling one whit. Friedman drives me witless.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 04:18:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Both BHL and Friedman are people who drive me nuts even if when I do agree with them. There's something to their style of expressing themselves that is maddening.

With that said, de Gaulle was about as authoritarian as a person can be and still be a democratic leader. Hostility to de Gaulle in the US is often driven by his independence, but that's a separate issue.

On Italy - did the CIA really care one way or another about what was going on as long as the communists were kept firmly out of power? De Gondi could probably answer that question, but my impression was that they didn't - whatever it took, with the help of whoever was available, but beyond that? What I mean is I'm not sure if it's accurate to describe the CD and assorted helpers as simply CIA puppets. More willing allies who represented a significant fraction of Italian society and who were what they were.

by MarekNYC on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 04:45:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
De Gaulle was certainly authoritarian (and no idol of mine), but immediately post-war (he was then out of power till 1958) his main drive was to ensure the independence of France. Not to be a quasi-dictator, as Roosevelt believed he would be.

The motive in Italy was to keep the Commies out, yes. But I think there was a great deal of CIA-CD connivance (with a Mafia connection on the other side, so to speak).

Friedman's way of writing? Just look at that c alliteration up there. He forgot caviar. (Sort of thing BHL would remember...)

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 05:01:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Some people deserve a whop upside the head not for what they've done, or what they are about to do, or even what they think.  They are, metaphysically speaking, people who deserve a whop upside the head.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 05:46:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Pétition pour un étiquetage clair du mode de transport des marchandises intercontinentales


De plus en plus fréquemment, fruits, légumes, viandes et autres fleurs provenant des quatre coins de la planète nous sont proposés dans les commerces.

Lorsque ces produits sont acheminés en Belgique (ou en Europe) par avion, le coût énergétique est extrêmement élevé, avec des émissions de CO2 hors normes, 60 fois plus que le transport par voie maritime.

Par exemple, le seul transport aérien d'un kilo...

  • de fraises d'Israël émet 2,6 kg de CO2, soit l'équivalent de 1 litre de pétrole.
  • d'asperges du Pérou émet 8,4 kg de CO2, soit l'équivalent de 3,1 litres de pétrole.
  • de boeuf d'Argentine émet 9 kg de CO2, soit l'équivalent de 3,4 litres de pétrole.
  • d'agneau de Nouvelle-Zélande émet 15 kg de CO2, soit l'équivalent de 5,6 litres de pétrole.

Cette pratique n'est pas neuve mais dans le contexte actuel de réchauffement climatique, cela devient interpellant. Je ne souhaite pas interdire les importations de ces produits frais mais, en tant que consommateur, je désire pouvoir faire mon choix en connaissance de cause.

C'est la raison pour laquelle j'en appelle aux partis politiques démocratiques belges pour qu'ils légifèrent en la matière et imposent aux distributeurs l'application de logos (un avion rouge et un bateau bleu, par exemple) indiquant systématiquement et clairement le mode de transport utilisé pour le transport intercontinental de ces marchandises.

 

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 05:31:58 PM EST
I thought most Argentine beef and NZ lamb came by sea?

But nevertheless a visit to the Tesco or M & S veggie counter is quite staggeringly (and crazily) cosmopolitan....

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sat Feb 10th, 2007 at 05:43:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This has been debunked there at least about New-Zealand meat.

http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2006/12/18/105222/30#8

Europe agriculture is so oil-intensive (fertilizer and industrial diary) that's it's better CO2 wise to transport meat from australia to UK than to produce locally.

I don't know about vegetables though, but I assume indoor growning eats some oil too.

by Laurent GUERBY on Sat Feb 10th, 2007 at 05:49:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that is locally-produced self-serving analysis, about how much more oil-intensive sheep-raising is in Europe, for example, than in the Antipodes. C'mon, Laurent, you should know...
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Feb 10th, 2007 at 09:50:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For the record, I'd like to know about another study on this topic, but could find none.

Proponent of local production show zero reasonable argument so far. Purely emotional campaign.

by Laurent GUERBY on Sat Feb 10th, 2007 at 11:25:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What campaign are you talking about?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Feb 10th, 2007 at 02:06:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
L'Avion Rouge campaign (see link in first post of the thread by Jerome).
by Laurent GUERBY on Sat Feb 10th, 2007 at 04:59:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not directly for or against on this issue (not enough data to decide), but if you are interested, the following might shed more light on the issue:

Livestock's Long Shadow, LEAD
http://www.virtualcentre.org/en/library/key_pub/longshad/A0701E00.pdf

One Planet Agriculture, Soil Association
http://transitionculture.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/thecaseforaction.pdf

Food Miles, DEFA
http://statistics.defra.gov.uk/esg/reports/foodmiles/default.asp

by SamuM on Sun Feb 11th, 2007 at 06:07:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
what the $#@^%!#@$!ing %$@#!@#! is wrong with these idiots?

"Poor" is relative.  "Poverty" is absolute.

That there will be poor is a fact of economic life.  Poverty, however, is a result of a predatory economic system, Left or Right..

(I seem to be on a General Systems kick today.)


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 05:37:11 PM EST
When you're a billionaire like Tom though, this really isn't pertinent now, is it?

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 06:21:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think Tommy is a billionaire.  He's a toady and lickspittle to & for billionaires.  

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 06:45:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One of whom is his wife, who happens to be a billionaire.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 07:01:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's only tangentially relevant, but BHL has one of the top twenty fortunes in France - heir to a timber empire he sold off.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Feb 10th, 2007 at 02:01:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Their wealth is not relevant. They have one thing in common: an overinflated ego. However, they differ on one thing: Thomas Friedman is an utter ignorant idiot, whereas BHL is far from stupid.

I would like to see a book on Jean-Paul Sartre by Thomas Friedman...


"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Sat Feb 10th, 2007 at 05:15:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I think class is absolutely relevant, as it informs an utter insouciance of the consequences of their bullshit. You know, it's easy to advocate certain things when the adverse effects they may engender don't impact your independantly wealthy pot-bellied self.

And, as we all tend to be self-interested, and getting beyond this (ie, altruism in the case of wealth) is usually an exception and not a rule, the organs which are written for and by them - Le Fig and Les Echos, FT, the WSJ, the Economist, et c., tend to be far more neo-liberal than the average. Wealthy folks tend to be far more neo-liberal in outlook than average as well, as neo-liberalism permits an even greater accumulation of wealth and power.

As for Friedman writing a book on Sartre, I'd pay top dollar for that too.

But I wouldn't read it. I can see it now: "Being-for-itself, this is sort of like me. I am for myself, and everything I write is a celebration of me". The quintessential Friedman.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Sat Feb 10th, 2007 at 07:15:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
http://www.globalsubsidies.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=33#costing%202

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 05:37:34 PM EST
that my luxuriating in the strange pronouncements of fruitcakes has to stop. I realised this while watching a documentary tonight called 'Searching for the Wrong-Eyed Jesus'.

I'm always interested in what people believe in. I'm even more interested in what people believe in when it doesn't make sense (to me). Unlike, I suspect, many of us here, I do enjoy reading things I don't agree with, or that I profess to be uninterested in (the extraordinary rendition of syntax).

The documentary warned me of the fact that the individual eccentricities and unique world views of individuals that I so admire, can also translate into mass hysteria. But chicken or egg? Mass hysteria is dangerous. I disliked the total submission to the Beatles in the Sixties. I dislike any 'movements'. I love paradoxes.

This sentence is false

To quote wikipedia: A paradox (Gk: "aside belief") is an apparently true statement or group of statements that leads to a contradiction or a situation which defies intuition. Typically, either the statements in question do not really imply the contradiction, the puzzling result is not really a contradiction, or the premises themselves are not all really true or cannot all be true together. The word paradox is often used interchangeably and wrongly with contradiction; but whereas a contradiction asserts its own opposite, many paradoxes do allow for resolution of some kind.

nuff said...

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 05:51:07 PM EST
Have you noticed paradoxs or antinomies - as us hep-cat Epistemologicalists like to deem it - only turn into paradoxs or antinomies under iteration?

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 06:09:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have noticed that cornflakes make poor jigsaw puzzles...

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 07:08:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Try to flatten them first

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 07:28:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are few problems in life that cannot be solved by a twenty-ton press.



She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 07:42:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Paradoxically true : they are often used not to press/flatten, but to press/bend, or press/mold.
by balbuz on Fri Feb 9th, 2007 at 11:46:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why does this remind me of Friedman's way of reasoning?

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Sat Feb 10th, 2007 at 07:33:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
what's that got to do with the price of oil?

so a paradox is a contradiction with an escape route...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Feb 10th, 2007 at 05:09:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Paradox is often the rhetoric figure which expresses a dialectic approach, i.e. a situation where two apparently contradictory statements are both true. The literary form of paradox is the oxymoron.

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Sat Feb 10th, 2007 at 05:26:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now who are you calling an oxymoron? ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Feb 10th, 2007 at 06:55:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oxymoron: a guy who has been exposed to salty humid wind for too long

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Sat Feb 10th, 2007 at 07:30:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
According to Raymond Smullyan, when you say "this sentence is false", a paradox results only if one assumes your statements have to make sense which, in this case, we know is not necessarily true, on purpose.

So, no paradox.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 10th, 2007 at 10:08:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Hello, René, I've got this young Spanish chap saying your paintings are not paradoxical"
"Merde!"
"I know, I know. So it really is a pipe"
"Mais non, it is a painting of a pipe"
"René, René, calme - it's the treachery of images"
"Juste..."


You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Feb 10th, 2007 at 12:45:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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