Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.

The US Second Amendment

by Sven Triloqvist Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 05:54:33 AM EST

The Second Amendment reads: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

What does that mean? Does it mean that should the government need to raise a well-regulated militia, they need to draw from a pool of armed citizens? Or does it mean that the People have the right to bear arms (only) in a well-regulated militia?

The tragic deaths of more than 30 students at Virginia Tech yet again raises the question of why 'the most powerful nation on earth' allows its citizens do be armed. I am aware that the powerful National Rifle Association does not represent all Americans.

In reaction to yesterday's news US Senator and Presidential hopeful John McCain said the shooting rampage at Virginia Tech does not change his view that the Constitution guarantees everyone the right to carry a weapon.

"We have to look at what happened here, but it doesn't change my views on the Second Amendment, except to make sure that these kinds of weapons don't fall into the hands of bad people," McCain said Monday in response to a question.

Bad people?


Mental disorders are common in the United States and internationally. An estimated 26.2 percent of Americans ages 18 and older -- about one in four adults -- suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year. When applied to the 2004 U.S. Census residential population estimate for ages 18 and older, this figure translates to 57.7 million people. Even though mental disorders are widespread in the population, the main burden of illness is concentrated in a much smaller proportion -- about 6 percent, or 1 in 17 -- who suffer from a serious mental illness. In addition, mental disorders are the leading cause of disability in the U.S. and Canada for ages 15-44. Many people suffer from more than one mental disorder at a given time. Nearly half (45 percent) of those with any mental disorder meet criteria for 2 or more disorders, with severity strongly related to comorbidity.

Above from the National Institute of Mental Health.

As a European, I think I can just about get my head around a historical culture of homestead defence in inhospitable environments. It is, after all, less than 150 years since the Wild West. Hardly enough time to put away all the rifles and pistols kept for such defence. And I can understand, but am against, the killing of animals for pleasure. However - mea culpa - I recently enjoyed an elk steak supplied by a friend's father - a hunter who takes part every year in the strictly controlled cull of elk in Finland.

But who, in their right mind, would regard Uzis, 50 calibre rifles or bazookas as part of hunting - unless the quarry were human?

Violence exists in almost all societies. Anger, vengefulness, passion, frustration, despair: you will find these everywhere. What you do, as a society, is to limit access to the excessive tools of violence, as far as possible, by law and cultural expression - not only on behalf of potential victims, but also on behalf of the potential perpetrators.

A society that will not or cannot limit access is a lawless or flawed society.

Display:
Huh? The Second Amendment doesn't say any such thing:
More important changes introduced by the amendment included restrictions on the right to habeas corpus, an extension of the right of the government to declare a state of emergency, changes to provisions dealing with the reference of bills to the Supreme Court by the president and various changes needed to bring the official Irish text of the constitution into line with the English text. One unusual aspect of the Second Amendment was that it introduced a change to Article 56 of the Transitory Provisions, even though that article was no longer a part of the official text of the constitution.

Or did you have some other document in mind?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 06:00:39 AM EST
I don't find that amusing in this context.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 06:11:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 06:23:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just say "The US Second Amendment".

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 06:38:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you saying that the concept of context has no meaning?

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 06:44:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're assuming everyone shares your context, which is much broader than just the Virginia Tech shooting.

Instead of saying "the second amendment says" you could say "the US constitution says" and you would be equally correct but less ambiguous and would make the context narrower.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 06:51:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Last I looked, the "Wild West" was pretty much a Hollywood invention.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 06:01:22 AM EST
Indeed it was, but the phrase served to shortly conjure up the environment in which the gun culture was born.

I could refer you to the enormous sales growth of such gun producing companies as Remington and Colt during the period - if you needed some historical background. Fortunes were even made in Finland with the invention of a very thin, strong, oil-resistant bullet wrapping paper.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 06:19:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The desolation, though, is not. When it takes 60 minutes for police to arrive from the nearest city, gun ownership becomes a matter of practicality rather than a political issue.

Of course a majority of gun nuts (as opposed to more practical gun owners) live in suburbs that see very little violence.

I noted this a while back - outside of parts of Scandinavia, the European "countryside" isn't desolate in the way that rural Colorado is. You never leave civilization. Some of the mountain ranges might come close, but you're still not going to see signs that say "last gas station for 200 miles."

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 02:16:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No disagreement here from me.
Actually I had kind of a similar discussion with an American (email) friend some time back. He lives in Wyoming, also not one of the most densely populated parts of the USA. :)

What I don´t understand though is the reluctance against "waiting times" or "background checks" in some states. Correct me if I´m wrong since I´m going from memory here!
As I remember it depends on state law and varies across the USA.

by Detlef (Detlef1961_at_yahoo_dot_de) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 03:11:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, it varies across states.

Short answer for the reluctance you mention: any kind of regulation is viewed as illegitimate by regressives.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 09:51:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Glad" to know that I remembered right.

I can understand - doing my best to remember that I´m talking about almost a continent, not a European country here - why rural Americans would need guns.

But if these regressives are against any kind of regulation, just imagine the carnage a real machine gun, assault rifle or so would produce. Totally crazy!

by Detlef (Detlef1961_at_yahoo_dot_de) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 05:50:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's purely an ideological thing.  The full discussion is never really had about it.  Instead, it's turned into a big picture issue of banning guns vs. allowing guns.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 10:31:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That is crazy!

I can understand if rural Americans would want to own guns. After comparing the size the population density of Germany and the USA. :)

But I simply fail to understand why these exact same Americans might want to give firearms to - uhh - potentially mentally unstable people?

And without a real, real big intrusive federal government data base there is just no hope that firearms would only be sold to "responsible" gun owners.
(According to the VTech reports, that guy allegedly did have some mental problems dating back to 2005.)

So, are some of the American gun victims just "collateral damage" to ensure gun ownership for the rest?

by Detlef (Detlef1961_at_yahoo_dot_de) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 06:07:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, companies, of course, don't mind giving them to the mentally unstable, since it brings in money.  It's, as we've seen with Columbine and now Tech, a very deadly ostrich-ish defense.

The problem is the adherence to the "slippery slope" talk.  Many people genuinely believe that Democrats and other liberals want to take their guns away.  (A small few do, but most do not.  I highly doubt that gun ownership rates would climb to our level without many liberals being owners, too.  I have a family full of liberals, and many are gun owners.)  I'm probably more sympathetic to the slippery slope argument than most folks on any given issue, but I don't see much of a slope in this case, and, as anyone who has paid attention to the issue of control in America knows, what slope that might exist ain't very slippery.

The Dems have done -- to, I'm sure, the shock of no one -- a pathetic job of talking to ordinary people about this issue.  The Republicans treat voters like sheep, and the Dems refuse to talk to voters like adults.  Demanding things like background checks will not damage the ability of responsible people to go hunting or defend their homes from intruders.  Most people will agree.  Most will also agree, as they did (and do) with the assault weapons ban, that nobody needs an AK47 to defend his home.  A simple hunting rifle could do both jobs.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Thu Apr 19th, 2007 at 03:26:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Your argument doesn't stand up. How many liberals would own a gun, if they were so closely controlled that the likelihood of confronting an intruder or an aggressor with a gun were almost zero? (The situation in Europe)

Where it rains a lot, people carry umbrellas.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Apr 19th, 2007 at 06:00:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was speaking of the hunting side, not the self-defense side, with regard to liberals

I can't speak to all of Europe, of course, but I think you're giving Europe a tad too much credit.  The chance of confronting a gun-toting intruder in America is still almost zero, anyway.  I came across quite a few stories on shootings in Nottingham, alone.  And that's to say nothing of stabbings and other violent crimes often tied to property crime.  America has easily the higher rate with regard to guns and murder, but that doesn't imply nonexistence of such crime in Europe.  And Europe, if I remember correctly, doesn't perform quite so well looking at other criminal activities, some of which are violent.

My experiences are obviously limited to Britain, though.

The umbrella analogy also neglects the fear factor.  Wanting to own a gun doesn't imply that you're right to believe you're in danger.  Central to "Bowling for Columbine," you'll recall, was that "If-if-bleeds-it-leads" reporting had skyrocketed while crime rates -- violent crime, in particular -- plunged during the 1990s.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Apr 20th, 2007 at 10:40:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We can agree to disagree, I hope. We represent two cultures here - and even they are parochial because of our limited personal experience. I have travelled to many parts of the world, but I have only lived in England (as it was then) and Finland.

I am being serious, and not flippant, if I refer you back to the Marmite debate. There are certain tastes or attitudes that one acquires in childhood that go with you into adulthood - hardly explained and simply accepted. You need a rootkit to get at them. I can't see any way in which I would stop liking Marmite. Just as I can see no way in which I would be liking guns.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Apr 20th, 2007 at 10:55:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I can't see any way in which I would stop liking Marmite.

Please do not display so openly your ugliest perversions...

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Fri Apr 20th, 2007 at 11:06:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's a lot of things we can't help doing ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Apr 20th, 2007 at 11:43:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We can agree to disagree, I hope.

Of course, but have America and Europe really degenerated to the point that we should serve as their representatives? ;)

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Apr 20th, 2007 at 11:54:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We have to start somewhere ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Apr 20th, 2007 at 12:02:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, and here I'd hoped we'd bottomed with your perverse love of Marmite.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Apr 20th, 2007 at 12:06:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sir, your aspersions on my perversions belie a failure to admit your own...

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Apr 20th, 2007 at 12:11:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oui.  It's a Yank thing.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Apr 20th, 2007 at 12:13:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is that 'thing' or 'thang'? - a geographical marker, I believe?

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Apr 23rd, 2007 at 02:15:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Dems have done -- to, I'm sure, the shock of no one -- a pathetic job of talking to ordinary people about this issue.  The Republicans treat voters like sheep, and the Dems refuse to talk to voters like adults.

It sure looks like that!
Seen from far away Europe. :)
It seems like a majority of Dems are afraid of taking a firm stance on anything. They just duck and advertise their "We´re not Bush" slogan.

Now, German parties certainly aren´t innocent of that tactic too. But they´re at least supposed to offer some political solutions to "real-world" problems. Which means that somewhere in their election programs they do have to offer at least some ideas of what they would like to do.

Of course, we also don´t have that kind of partisan politics as you have right now. I noticed that you didn´t even entertain the thought that the Republicans might offer a common-sense solution. Possibly right given my limited view of American media.

The thing is that most German political parties still "overlap". You´ll find "wings" fighting for more "fiscal responsibility", more "welfare state", more "personal responsibility" in almost any German party. Given our election system, they´re needed too. :)
Without them, coalition governments would be almost impossible.
And in some cases, political compromises might actually help the common sense approach.

by Detlef (Detlef1961_at_yahoo_dot_de) on Thu Apr 19th, 2007 at 06:08:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The desolation, though, is not. When it takes 60 minutes for police to arrive from the nearest city, gun ownership becomes a matter of practicality rather than a political issue.

For me, living in nice civilised Europe, outside of office Hours, (and sometimes within them) The nearest police station is over half an hour away. Gun Ownership is still not a matter of Practicality, because most of my neighbours aren't armed so I'm not scared of them. I think we're back to fear again, even though the rural areas aren't where all the burglars are who are going to break into your house and murder your wife and kids.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 07:11:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The rural areas aren't the areas to worry about generally.  It just so happens that this massacre happened in a rural town with a large university.  I think it has a lot more to do with Virginia Tech than Blacksburg.  Campuses can be hotbeds for the emotionally unstable, whether we talk about a case like Cho Seung-Hui or a case like Ted Bundy.  There are, in my opinion, certain aspects of university life than can, if left unchecked, feed the problems of those like the former.  But I also think we're kidding ourselves -- even taking issues like the crystal meth market into account -- if we focus on the rural areas, regardless of the fact that a lot of the gun enthusiasts and nuts live in those areas.  The primary issue with those folks is electoral, I'd guess, rather than criminal.  The handguns in South-Central Los Angeles worry me a great deal more than the hunting rifles in Des Moines.

That said, it remains the case that Cho Seung-Hui should not have been able to buy a gun so easily.  I'm not sure how we can go about fixing that problem, honestly.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 10:26:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I probably ought not to reply to this seeing as I work in about the only truly rural university in the UK.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 12:58:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fear is a limited factor in this case, it is a matter of being prepared for unlikely events. No different than my earthquake preparedness kit.

Many of my neighbors ARE armed and I'm not scared. I've felt scared for my safety in a public space maybe three times in my life. Gun violence (and violence in general) is almost exclusively limited to poor neighborhoods. The only thing I should be fearing from a statistical standpoint is car accidents.

Media created fear operates best on suburban populations. The mind normalizes any given living condition and seeks to solve the top issues it finds. Modern suburbs present zero survival challenges so the mind ends up working non-existent issues that the media are all too willing to provide.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 01:19:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So what unlikely event are you preparing for? If you look at the statistics generally you're in much more danger having a gun than not, many more people injure or kill themselves accidentally than ever face burglars with one?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 01:47:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't own a gun. I may in the future, though.

Using the word "generally" when making a statistical argument is a cheap way to hedge bets. I won't go further, though, because I don't want to argue for either position today much less add any nuance.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 02:01:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I only threw the generally in because I couldn't be bothered myself to look up the rate of accidental injury to handgun owners compared to the rate of injury to assailants, I seem to remember that it's about three times as high.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 02:15:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
today there was a great diary in kos (weird?) explaining how arms where forbidden within the area of any "wild west town"...a fter readign the diary i asked myself how I could ahve been so stupid... lied and leid and lied....

Nice narrative the wild west... so nobody cares about the data :)...

One last thing... why weapons laws are nto a amtter of towns or cities or maybe states..s o that each area can regulate democratically? would it really go against the 2nd amendment to forbid any gun bigger than a pistol?

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 05:35:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Would enjoy reading the diary, if you could provide a link.

I like the "history" of that period.

Thanks.

"When the abyss stares at me, it wets its pants." Brian Hopkins

by EricC on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 07:03:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry lost the track.. but it was in the rec list... I think a search would make the trick specially if you put reccommended as tag or anything similar.

I am not sure how it works though....

I found it!!!

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/4/17/74039/3522

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 04:22:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks:

"One of the first rules established in the old west was that nobody carries in town. It took about three days for that rule to pass in every town, right after the first drunken brawl when someone got shot or killed. It was very much NOT like we see in westerns."

I was looking for something specifically on the "Wild West" and missed it. I agree with everything Captain Frogbert said except that statement. Too general.

Policy worked only where nothing was happening,which was most of the West. Cattle towns, boom mining towns, etc. were totally different situations. Then you had rustlers, bank robbers, train robbers, mine wars, and your run-of-the-mill psycopathic killers.

"When the abyss stares at me, it wets its pants." Brian Hopkins

by EricC on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 08:10:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh well yes.. they were breaking the law anyhow.. so of course they broke that one too...

and therein the reason for the law.. to classify...

This is the reason also in Europe .. to classify people... if someone has a weaponn in asearch .. he is bad and you can interrogate it to get those that gave him the weapon... unless he can proof innocence... that's how it works. One of those police tricks... that most people in Europe think is utterly necessary.. not so in the US (it seems :)).

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 10:34:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, it is notable that civilisation came to Dodge after guns were banned. It seems that at least 19th century Americans recognised that gun ownership was a problem for civic society.

As for no firearm larger than  pistol, that would never pass the hunting lobby who I think would have a genuine case for grievance. that said I think that modern weapons make the hunting part superficial, it's just target shooting with live prey. No skill whatsoever.

How about no gun other than a manual bolt-load rifle for hunting ?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 05:05:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, yes I for sure agree.. I was asking about the legal point of view....

has the state the right to forbid certain weapon.. I guess so... any kind of weapon as long as some weapons are allowed...

I guess everything has to do on how you define  a gun.. legally .. I guess.. isn't it? I was jsut asking due to my lack of knowledge.... I would forbid all guns .. of course.... specially the ones in the army :)

A pleasue

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 05:49:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, to be fair, it helps that the Wild WestTM now has broadband lines and running water.  (Much of it did not have the latter when guys like Harry Reid were growing up there.)  It's still a fairly small and rural region compared with the others, in terms of population, especially once you get away from Denver, Phoenix and Vegas.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 10:40:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Last I looked, the "Wild West" was pretty much a Hollywood invention.

Don't believe everything you read about Hollywood.  There seems to have been a sufficient number of actual gunfighters, lawmen, and bad guys around the old West for it to deserve the title "Wild West."  See http://www.linecamp.com/museums/americanwest/hubs/gun_fighters_lawmen_outlaws/gun_fighters_lawmen_ou tlaws.html, http://www.vlib.us/old_west/guns.html, or other sites.  William Bonney, John Wesley Hardin (maybe one of my relations or yours), etc.  Their methods were rarely as glamorous or notorious as depicted by Hollywood, but history suggests they were real.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 09:27:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
According to the kos diary.. guns were forbidden inside populated areas.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 05:56:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Probably depended on the jurisdiction involved. Many "old West" areas were just territories, not States.  But I can still carry a firearm legally in Virginia as long as it is openly displayed (unless the law has been changed).  One can also easily get a permit to carry a firearm concealed in Va.  Some cities, like Wash DC, have very strict firearms control laws.  You can't possess a firearm at all in DC today.  Ironically, Washington has one of the highest firearm murder rates in the country primarily  because of the drug trade and the fact that guns are readily available from the States surrounding it.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears
by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 09:38:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And there was the Railroad War.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 01:07:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
FYI:  This site address might work better for second ref above.  http://www.vlib.us/old_west/guns.html#general .

This site provides a lot of stats.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 03:18:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Coffeyville, Kansas and
 Northfield, Minnesota
are interesting too.

Wonder where all those peaceful townies got all those weapons.

"When the abyss stares at me, it wets its pants." Brian Hopkins

by EricC on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 04:28:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Incredible, and not much over a hundred years ago!

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears
by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 10:18:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The End of the Wild West and the Wild Bunch--Tupiza, Bolivia 1908.

Nice presentation by a Bolivian tour guide.

"When the abyss stares at me, it wets its pants." Brian Hopkins

by EricC on Thu Apr 19th, 2007 at 12:35:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's my read of the history, too.  The Wild West was, as I understand it, far less violent than today, and certainly far less violent than (say) Washington or Miami during the Crack Wars back in the '80s.  My sense is that any of the gun nuts around today would've been jailed for their insanity in the Wild West.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 10:00:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Finland actually has a lot more firearms (mostly hunting rifles, admittedly) per capita than the US, but less weapons-related crime.

But yeah, hunting is one thing (though for sport? You shoot it, you eat it, I say), and assault weapons are another. If the argument is that one can never, under any circumstance regulate the people's right to keep and bear arms, I'm going to run to the nearest Walmart and buy myself a nuke. I have the right to defend myself, after all.

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde

by NordicStorm (m<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 06:20:04 AM EST
It has been pointed out that with Bowling for Columbine, Michael Moore set out to make a polemic against the NRA and ended up making a film about the culture of fear. Americans are afraid of everyone and everything, including each other. Fear, not gun availability, is the real issue.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 06:40:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think both are issues.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 07:03:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Insecurity is a better word than fear, I think, tied to a bizzarre cult of guns/violence/the military that I find very difficult to comprehend - and I'm writing as the guy wondering where to keep my stack of training and real weapons in the new house.

There's a veneration of the faux-martial in parts of US culture that is extremely dangerous, and you can see it all over the left of the Internet as well as the right. A belief in the efficacy of violence, in the purity of righteous violence, mixed with a big dash of scary tribalism.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 07:56:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, if I recall it correctly, Canadians have the same amount of guns per capita as the americans...but you sure see a lot less massacres up there.

Personally, I have run the whole gamut of being anti-gun, to now not really caring. Basically, because the issue has been used heavily against Demcrats by Repugnicans, to scare many voters into thinking the dems want to control their lives. Which is hugely ironic, as I would say right now America under Repub rule is as fascist as it has ever been...and in danger of getting worse. Can you really stop people from gettig guns if they want them?

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia

by whataboutbob on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 07:51:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Gun control, or lack thereof, is a symptom, not a disease.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 07:57:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The point about Canada was made by Michael Moore in Bowling For Colombine. He concluded the difference was fear - the Canadians had guns but weren't filled with day-to-day fear (of aggression, crime, whatever), so didn't use them.

How far that goes towards explaining the appeal to some young Americans of random gun massacre, I don't know - or rather, I don't think it goes far...

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 08:02:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru brought Bowling For Colombine up above - apologies, Mig, I bounced off Recent Comments LOL.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 08:04:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL

You recent comments junkie you

LOL

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 08:05:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bloodshot eyes, trembling hand.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 08:10:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was going to mention that after I saw photos, but thought that your doctor probably had it well in hand.

After all I recognised the symptoms from the mirror.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 08:20:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
By the way, Canada too had shooting sprees -- there was the École Polytechnique massacre in 1989, with 15 dead including the shooter, who bought the gun as hunting gun. The massacre led to tighter gun control culminating in an 1995 law (even if Moore's anecdotal evidence saw no difference. Now look how pro-gun bloggers spin this:

The early reports on the VaTech shootings are confused, but one headline keeps insisting it was the "worst shooting in US history".

Well,shooting, maybe. Killing at a school, no. As an intrepid Freeper pointed out, that dubious honor goes to a shooting in Bath MI, where a disgrunted "taxpayer" Andrew Kehoe bombed the school, killing 38 children, seven adults and himself in May 1927.

Undoubtably this will lead to calls for gun control, given Virginia's lax gun laws that allow felons from New York and Pennsylvania to get cheap guns to commit crime. But the Montreal shooter who killed 14 women in Montreal wasn't stopped by that country's more stringent gun laws.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 11:39:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
felons from New York and Pennsylvania

Now what colour would they be?

This is another aspect of what Moore brought out in Bowling For Colombine (see ending with Charlton Heston) - guns are for law-abiding white men. To keep those... felons down.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 11:46:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Canada has significantly fewer guns per capita than the US. Canada has .25 guns per person while the US has .83 guns per person (figures were quoted as per capita) (Keep in mind that the US has approximately 10 x the population of Canada when looking at total gun numbers.)

COALITION for Gun Control/pour le contrôle des armes

Canada has always had stronger firearms regulation than the United States, particularly with respect to handguns. In Canada, handguns have been licensed and registered since the 1930's, ownership of guns has never been regarded as a right and several court rulings have reaffirmed the right of the government to protect citizens from guns. Handgun ownership has been restricted to police, members of gun clubs or collectors. Very few (about 50 in the country) have been given permits to carry handguns for "self-protection." This is only possible if an applicant can prove that their life is in danger and the police cannot protect them.

As a result, Canada has roughly 1 million handguns while the United States has more than 76 million. While there are other factors affecting murder, suicide and unintentional injury rates, a comparison of data in Canada and the United States suggests that access to handguns may play a role. While the murder rate without guns in the US is roughly equivalent (1.8 times) to that of Canada, the murder rate with handguns is 14.5 times the Canadian rate. The costs of firearms death and injury in the two countries have been compared and estimated to be $495 (US) per resident in the United States compared to $195 per resident in Canada.

Plus more interesting tables that don't easily copy.


aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 05:39:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Finland actually has a lot more firearms (mostly hunting rifles, admittedly) per capita than the US

More than one per citizen? Because the US figure is close to that.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 07:04:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hhmmm, I seem to recall they're being about 2 million firearms in Finland. I'll have to check.

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (m<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 07:54:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In Switzerland the whole issue of guns at home, and more specifically, the issue of bullet stashes is the big rage now. Since Switzerland mandates participation in the armed forces between ages 20 and 40, there are alot of guns and ammo around. The Greens are requesting that ammo be held at the armeries. Fortunately, there have been few massacres here (knock on wood)

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 09:22:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The last one was four days ago, and had consequences. (Fran, Bob, could you find more Swiss articles on this and diary it?)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 10:19:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Most young Finnish males go through nearly a year of compulsory service in (usually) the army, navy or air defence force. Thus almost the entire Finnish male population has experience with weaponry.

The police are also armed with handguns and undergo specialist training, and strict control.

If there are 2 million weapons in Finland, then almost all of these will be weapons allocated to military or police forces. There are probably a few tens of thousands of hunting rifles and sporting shotguns in public hands. Handguns can usually only be found in shooting clubs, and never the leave the premises.

The only handguns in private hands that I have ever seen in Finland  were war trophies or macho badges for gangsters.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 09:27:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I found this:

Asia Times - World's trigger-happy population keeps growing

...With roughly 83-96 guns per 100 people, the United States is approaching a statistical level of one gun per person.

The country with the second-highest gun ownership is Yemen, with between 33 and 50 firearms per 100 people, followed by Finland with 39 per 100, the survey said.

By comparison, the states of the European Union, now thought to have many more guns than previously estimated, have 17.4 guns per 100 people.

One country that is heavily armed is Australia. The survey estimates there are 2.1 million private firearms in Australia. Australian gun ownership - one privately-owned gun for every nine people - surpasses the global ratio, which is just one gun for every 16 people.

...In Afghanistan, the widely-used number of 10 million small arms in circulation almost certainly is a serious exaggeration. In reality, there probably are 500,000 to 1.5 million small arms there. Similarly, in Yemen, the previously reported figure of up to 80 million small arms is almost certainly wrong. A more reliable estimate is 6 million to 9 million.

Surprisingly, even security-obsessed Israel has relatively few small arms. Private weapons appear to be carefully restricted. While Israel has at least 363,000 weapons in public hands, that equals about six civilian firearms per 100 citizens, or about 7.1 percent of the US figure.

If I got this right, the US figures are pre-9/11, and since then, efen more guns are in public hands.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 11:57:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But of the 39 firearms per 100 I am convinced that you will find few handguns.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 12:15:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
more detailed (but unverified) information on Finland here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Finland

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 12:17:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sounds resonable. I saw (but have been unable to retrieve) some numbers on swedish guns. Hunting rifles dominated by far. If memory serves there was some 2 million hunting rifles and possibly half a million other weapons, including police and military.

The cathegory of guns that from time to other is discussed in Sweden is the home guards (hemvärnet) automatic rifles. Those are stored at home so that they can be ready to defend while the conscription army is mobilised. Few massacres though, the only one that comes to mind was in Dalarna in the ninties. Otherwise it is generally illegal firearms that is used during homicides, or at least that is my impression.

Speaking of guns, Sweden has just finished a weapons amnesty where weapons has been accepted and destroyed by the police without any questions asked. A way to bring down the number of illegal guns in circulation.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 01:27:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A permanent amnesty came about in Finland with changes to the law in 1998. A weapon voluntarily surrendered at any time incurs no questions or penalty.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 02:06:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know that gun control is a hot topic in neighbouring Austria, where there is a strong gun lobby, one based on hunting culture but involving nuts who want automatic weapons. But in total, there are an estimated half million guns in a country of 8 million, or a bit above 6 in 100.

In Switzerland, the favourite model of US gun-crazies due to army machineguns stored at home, there are about 2.6 million guns in private hands for 7.5 million inhabitants, or 37 per 100 people. (Of these, 445 million are half-automatic weapons, of these 40,000 not army.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 12:19:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
2004 figures:

Manslaughter, murder, homicide: 144 offences recorded by police.

14% of these offences involved firearms i.e. around 10 offences in 2004.

Were the Finnish population as large as the US, this would translate into 600 homicides involving firearms. The equivalent actual figure in the US is 16,137 homicides involving firearms in 2004 (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm). Quite a big difference.


You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 12:39:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, you're undercutting your argument with those stats.

The DOJ reports 16,137 homicides of which two thirds  involved firearms (not 16,137 firearm homicides). Overall, relative to the population, the Finnish murder rate is a little over half that of the US even though its firearm homicide rate is a minute fraction of the American one - i.e. they're still committing murders, just not with guns.

In the Virginia Tech case the nutcase could be described as committing two different sorts of crimes - killing his ex, and going on a random shooting spree. I don't think that the first sort of crime would be reduced by restricting firearms - people intent on killing a specific person will do so anyways, though non-premeditated partner murders would probably go down.  The latter probably would be on a lesser scale - since  non-automatic rifles and standard shotguns, i.e. hunting weapons, aren't as well suited to mass killing of this sort.

by MarekNYC on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 02:16:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Use of firearms in 8.8% of all cases of murder/manslaughter/assisted killings cases including attempts. (2005 BKA Criminal Report).

All cases including attempts: 2,396
"Completed" crimes:             869 victims
(USA 2005 16,692 victims.)

FBI Uniform Crime Reporting 2005

Of the homicides for which the type of weapon was specified, firearms were used in 72.6 percent of the offenses. (Based on Expanded Homicide Data Table 7.) Of the identified firearms used, handguns comprised 87.3 percent.

Of course Americans own a lot more weapons but it´s not as if there are no firearms in Germany. Erfurt 2002 tragically proved that. A short Internet search found some German newspaper articles saying that there are around 3.6 million licensed gun owners in Germany with around 10 million firearms. Plus a guesstimate in 2002 by a spokesman for the police union  about some 20 million illegal firearms "flouting" around.

by Detlef (Detlef1961_at_yahoo_dot_de) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 02:41:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So the correct version of the NRA dictum is "Guns don't kill people, Americans do"

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 03:27:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
people don't kill people, people with guns kill people...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 06:39:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
let´s say I was blown away by the differences of firearm use in robberies and aggravated assault cases in the 2005 reports.

Use of firearms:

USA:
Robberies: 42.1% of 417,122 cases
Aggravated assault: 21% of 862,947 cases

Germany:
Robberies: 54,841 cases
Use of firearms in 0.4% of the cases
Threaten with firearms in 8.1% of the cases
Aggravated assault: 147,295 cases
(Leading to death in 173 cases.)
Use of firearms in 1.0% of the cases
Threaten with firearms in 0.3% of the cases

I suspect if Germany had similar numbers of firearm use in these crimes as the USA, our murder/manslaughter rate would probably be a lot higher.

Right now, we Germans seems to have relatively low levels of firearm "use":
Threatened with a firearm in 9177 criminal cases.
(Which includes cases where a victim thought that a toy /imitation gun was a real gun.)
And 5039 criminal case where a firearm was actually fired.
(Which includes 1555 cases of shooting at "things", for example traffic signs. Or 325 cases of poaching.)

Coupled with a clearance rate in murder cases of 95-96% this means that use of a firearm in a capital crime gets you plenty of attention from the police. It´s seldom so police probably will throw a lot of resources into such cases. Not to mention that if you´re caught - remember the clearance rates - courts will view the use of a firearm as an aggravating fact against you. So a smart criminal (in a robbery for example) probably doesn´t want to use the firearm.
While as in aggravated assault, most Germans involved probably don´t own a gun.

by Detlef (Detlef1961_at_yahoo_dot_de) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 04:39:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On the other hand, it appears to me that 20 million is waaay overblown, while I suspect that the bulk of the 10 million are professional or hunting/sports firearms (especially in Bavaria).

Using your figures, non-gun-relatewd murders in the US were around 4575, while those in Germany could be 'population-corrected' for comparison to around 2850 (at most, I'd assume the gun-related ratio is higher among completed crimes).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 04:10:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On the other hand, it appears to me that 20 million is waaay overblown, while I suspect that the bulk of the 10 million are professional or hunting/sports firearms (especially in Bavaria).

The 10 million should be solid since these are owned by licensed firearm owners.
The 20 million...
Well, that´s why I said a "guesstimate".
I found that number in several German newspaper articles from 2002. All citing that spokesman´s estimate. That was however no official statement. In fact no official statements - as far as I know - exist.

Using your figures, non-gun-related murders in the US were around 4575, while those in Germany could be 'population-corrected' for comparison to around 2850 (at most, I'd assume the gun-related ratio is higher among completed crimes).

Just some additional information in case you didn´t read the BKA crime report.

Murder cases in 2005: 794
(51.3% of these cases were attempts)
Firearm used in these 794 cases: 14.1%
With firearm threatened: 0.9%

Manslaughter and assisted killings: 1602
(74.0% of these cases were attempts)
Firearm used in these 1602 cases: 6.2%
With firearm threatened: 0.7%

And it´s probably true that guns were responsible for many of the "completed" crimes.

by Detlef (Detlef1961_at_yahoo_dot_de) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 03:50:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I proposed German law as the model for gun control above. I spent a long time trying to find out whether Germany has a limit on the number of cartridges the magazine of a semi-automatic pistol can hold. I link to what I believe to be the relevant law in my post.

Do you know if Germany bans high capacity magazines? My guess would be that it just bans magazines that extend beyond the pistol grip.

Germany does ban hollow point bullets. They are legal in the U.S. (they are labelled as "personal protection" on the box), because bullets with full metal jackets are more likely to pass through the bodies of gang members when they shoot each other and hit someone else, I guess.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 09:34:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don´t know. :)

After reading your comment, I did search for possible regulations.
So far, I´ve only found regulations for rifles.
Full-automatic are forbidden, half-automatic are allowed for sport activities if magazine capacity is 10 or less.

I suspect, just suspect, that magazine capacity is unregulated right now. Probably for a simple reason. Nobody thought about it. :)

Right now, most licensed firearm owners own rifles. Like hunters or members of a (sport) gun club. Pistols would be mostly licensed to either protective services (like guards for a money transport) or the (few) people who can plausibly state that they need a pistol for personal protection. Mind you, gun clubs would use some pistols too (see Erfurt). But I suspect pistols are a minority of licensed firearms.

by Detlef (Detlef1961_at_yahoo_dot_de) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 05:31:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Every self respecting man in Yeman also carries a knife, in plain view!  But the penalties for misuse are severe.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears
by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 08:36:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
TeHe!

"When the abyss stares at me, it wets its pants." Brian Hopkins
by EricC on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 09:35:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
believes in the complete repeal of the Second Amendment, which was necessary only so long as soldiers were being quartered in our homes (a right revoked by the Fourth Amendment).

The Crolian Progressive: as great an adventure as ever I heard of...
by Nonpartisan on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 02:01:37 PM EST
While I tend to agree with the sentiment, the Second and Fourth Amendments were written and passed at the same time as part of the Bill of Rights. That suggests that the Fourth does not trump the Second or render it superfluous.  
by Foraker on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 03:19:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, its the Third Amendment that prohibits quartering troops in homes.  The Fourth Amendment requires a warrant for search and seizure.
by corncam on Thu Apr 19th, 2007 at 04:08:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was under the impression that the drafters of the 2nd amendment were wary of a future government ignoring the Constitution and setting up a dictatorship over the citizenry.

I have always found it ironic that the gun-nuts who bang this particular drum, not of gun-ownership for hunting, but an ideological committment to resisting the government are mostly found amongst the luntic wingnut republican right. They got in a lather about imagined Constitutional violations by Clinton, but are silent as Bush creates the Unitary Executive that now drives entire tank battalions through the Constitution.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 05:33:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes I'm amazed it's the crowd who are normally the "You can't have rights without responsibilities" mob.

(Although if I was in the states I suppose I would just have arranged myself a visit from the secret service for implying  that if you want the right to bear arms you have a responsibility to shoot the president if he gets as far out of line as the current one is)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 06:56:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Knock, knock...

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 07:06:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
good job I'm not in at the moment.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 07:12:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Who's There?

"When the abyss stares at me, it wets its pants." Brian Hopkins
by EricC on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 01:22:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Dave's not here"

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 01:23:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And they imagine that they're still free as long as they have their guns, regardless of the other freedoms they've lost. A shrewd dictator would take advantage of that and let them keep their guns.
by Gag Halfrunt on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 07:07:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A shrewd dictator-ship HAS...

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 08:08:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is the biggest irony of all.

Control the man, and the gun will do whatever you want.

But in this case it's a beeyootifully useful and cynically calculated wedge issue. As long as the Right can say 'Libruls will take away your guns!' the NRA types will jerk their knees and fall into line, voting to order.

Now that's freedom.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Apr 19th, 2007 at 08:19:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I just thought I'd point this out:

AP via IHT  says

Cho Seung-Hui walked into a Virginia gun shop five weeks ago, put down a credit card and walked out with a Glock 19 handgun and a box of ammunition. He paid $571 (€421)

But the part I really want to note is this:

Because he killed and injured so many victims in a short span of time, some people speculated that Cho used high-capacity magazines containing as many as 33 rounds in each clip.

The standard magazine for a Glock 19 holds 15 rounds, although they do make a 10-round mag for "10-round states," e.g. states with laws about that sort of thing.  Virginia is not one of those states.

Under the federal assault-weapons ban enacted in 1994, magazines were limited to 10 rounds. But that ban was allowed to expire in 2004.

That, my friends, is a policy decision.  Courtesy of the Republican Congress and the Republican President.

Look... I, for one, would not advocate a total ban on guns.  It wouldn't work, for one thing.  But there is a huge difference, a yawning chasm, between common sense regulation and a ban.  Gun nuts -- and I use the term to mean a specific subset of gun enthusiasts, not all of them -- do not distinguish between regulation and banning.  They see a "slippery slope" that they believe will lead to the eventual confiscation of all their guns.

That is, of course, hogwash.  There is no appetite for a total gun ban in the States.  Nobody is calling for it, not the Brady people, not the Democratic leadership, nobody.

What everyone with any common sense wants are logical, reasonable restrictions on the types of guns that can be bought, and how often you can buy them.  In Virginia, I remember it being very controversial when the state passed a law in 1993 limiting handgun purchases to one per month.

Why was this controversial?  Who, exactly, needs more than one handgun a month?

I fail to understand why a hunter needs a TEC 9.  I fail to undestand why any responsible citizen needs an assault weapon of any sort.  I fail to understand why someone with a handgun needs a magazine that holds 30 rounds.

There is a middle ground between gun nuttery and gun banning, and it's where the vast majority of Americans reside.  Pity that the government of the day is in the hands of the GOP, which is in turn in the hands of the NRA.

Because who knows, maybe, just maybe, had the VaTech shooter had to use 10-round magazines instead of 15-round ones, maybe one or two more kids would still be alive.

That's a good enough argument for me.

That is all.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 05:17:58 PM EST
The reports say every victim had at least three bullets in their bodies, with a 16-round magazine that would be re-loading at least six times.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 05:29:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Probably more than that, because the doctor I saw on television saying that exact thing was talking about the survivors.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 05:37:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I initially agreed with this poster who made the same argument at BT, but I've changed my mind. The Federal Assault Weapons Ban should of course be reinstated, but limiting the capacity of magazines (aside from requiring them to be contained within the pistol grip) goes too far in my opinion, and amounts to interfering in design, analogously to requiring computer hardware to have Digital Rights Management provisions.

The ban in question limited magazines to 10 rounds. As you note, the magazine of a Glock 19 holds 15 cartridges (unless it is bought in Massachusetts, California, or the few other states which ban magazines that hold more than ten cartridges). That suggests to me that if the ban were still in effect, the most effect it would have had is that the killer would only have been able to kill 20 people, say, instead of 32.

Banning high capacity magazines strikes me as the wrong approach, analogous to the war on drugs, going after supply rather than demand, so to speak. Since their last big massacre by a nut with a gun, the Brits have essentially completely banned handguns. Germany takes a middle road between Britain and the United States, and I think their approach is the best model.

Every person who wants to own a gun or carry a gun in public needs a special permit. I'll say a few things about the conditions under which people receive this kind of permit. To begin, the right to own a gun is very restrictive. It requires a government permit which is based on four certifications. First, the certification of need. You can document the need to own a gun if you are a member of a government certified gun club. Getting such a gun club certificate is a rather restrictive process. Or you can document the need to own a gun if you are a hunter. Again, getting a hunting license is much more restrictive in Germany than it is in the United States. Second, you have to document trustworthiness through the local police authorities. Such trustworthiness involves no prior violent criminal record. Third, you need to be certified in the technical knowledge about the consequences of firearms. Technical knowledge is based on a test that people must take with the district government. And fourth, you must document physical fitness. It is certainly at least partly the result of this legislation that only [p.261] 2.1 million of 80 million German citizens own guns. That is about three percent of the entire population.
International Perspectives on Gun Control

Note that in Germany, unlike in Britain, if you want to own a handgun you can own one, but you have to be able to convince the authorities that your owning one would not pose a significant risk to society. A civilian can own a 9mm pistol, even though 9mm is considered a "military" caliber and is banned for civilians in some European countries.

Germany's firearm regulations are described here. (This is a report written by the US Commerce Department. The Canadian government put it on the Web; if you want to get it from the US government, you have to sign up for a $200/year subscription. Typical.) The list of forbidden weapons is here. Neither place says anything about a limit on how many cartridges a pistol magazine can contain. So apparently high capacity magazines for pistols are not banned in Germany, which I find somewhat surprising. Hollow point bullets are banned, however. This report mentions that Spain bans "semi-automatic weapons whose capacity of charge is in excess of five cartridges" but does not mention such a ban for Germany. The report has a table for the regulations of most countries, and capacity limits are indicated only for Armenia, Bangladesh, and Spain.

This kind of approach does not conflict with the Second Amendment, even under the "liberal" interpretation that it grants the right to bear arms to individuals, not militias.

I find it remarkable by the way that the only European country to ban handguns is Britain, that bastion of liberty.

You make a good point when you say that gun nuts do not distinguish between regulation and banning. So I think there's not just gun nuttery going on there, but also the more general American regressive hatred of the state.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 09:13:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I find it remarkable by the way that the only European country to ban handguns is Britain, that bastion of liberty

And long may that ban remain. Absolutely nobody needs to own a gun in a civil society. A gun has only one use; killing people. We genuinely don't need any more of that than we have.

The NRA may have a point when it says "Guns don't kill people, people kill people", but a gun makes it a helluva lot easier. Makes it far more a case of unconsidered reaction.

Just look at the comparative murder rates and then wonder if some "liberties" aren't phantasms. I like the liberty of not having somebody shoot me in a drive-by. I like the liberty of knowing that my nephews will come home from school/college without a classmate doing a Columbine. That my neighbours won't have a colleague go "postal".

Yes, we have knife crime, right now children are dying on a weekly basis from knife crime. But since the beginning of the year it's a total that's less than 20, for an entire country of 60 million people . And we don't have mass killihgs since we removed guns entirely. Whose liberty ? Whose life ?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 05:20:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Gun ownership is becoming endemic in some cities of the UK - partly because of idiotic Hollywood propaganda that suggests that guns are cool 'n sexy. It's not unusual to hear of gun battles and shootings now, and I can't see that getting better.

The fact that they're illegal doesn't change the fact that they're relatively freely available to those who want them. But relatively here means that gun stores are rare, and to buy one illegally you have to know people. So although anyone can get a gun, it's not walk-in-off-the-street easy.  

One big cultural difference is that most people don't want them.

The other difference is that no one here feels that a gun is a right. It's not associated with that adolescent notion of freedumb that it seems to have in the US.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 05:54:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It used to be that the Police did not have guns, and we've seen what gun teams can do when unleashed. Not a pretty picture.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 05:59:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually gun ownership has always been endemic amongst criminal gangs. I remember beng shown a gun in a Manchester pub during the 70s on sale for £200. The price is still the same, but inflation has effectively reduced the price to a fraction.

Gun usage has peaks and troughs. Right now, the publicity and increased police activity make gun use problematic for criminal gangs. They just don't need the attention and so are in a period of discouraging it.

Especially because, as with knives, the police seem to have a near 100% clear up rate on such murders, which is sending out a message loud and clear that it doesn't go anywhere.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 06:11:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I remember during the poll tax protests having a local crim come up to me in the street and  tell me if I really needed help with the "poll tax riot" he could get hold of Dynamite and AK47's

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 07:00:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the most effect it would have had is that the killer would only have been able to kill 20 people, say, instead of 32.

And for the families of those 12 students (or even one student) who might have survived and did not, that would certainly have been a step in the right direction.

If we have learned nothing else from watching years of school and workplace shooting rampages, years of suicide bombings (whether they be in Israel, Iraq or Sri Lanka), we must admit (and most sensible security and military folk do) that if someone wants to kill people, and wants to die in the process, there is honestly very little anybody can do to stop him.

What we can do is make it harder.  And I'll take what I can get on that score.

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 12:52:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
technichal detail.... anger is quite spread as it is some kind of passion....I do not know about vengefulnes (probably not very common in societies but I am not sure).. but despair is certainly not at all common in societies.. Actually I think is something only related with urban areas in some areas of the world...

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 05:30:28 PM EST
I know rural despair, and it doesn't look better than the urban version.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 05:32:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ummm sorry now it is all over rural areas in europe.. no doubt.... I meant that the origin was in Western cities.. sorry.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 05:41:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It probably goes back to the adoption of agriculture, but we need a solid definition of despair for a good analysis. The unfortunate point here is that societies that maximize physical power are the societies that survive and expand - not the societies that maximize happiness or other traits.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 06:20:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Great comment.

I am not sure if Romans or Greeks had despair... from what I recall there is no despair (with he present sense) in the greek mythology..

I would have to check Shakespeare.. if despair is not in Shakespeare it means despair notions appear with the introspection period of the 18th century (probably).

If Shakespeare has it... it could come form the agricultural empires or from the Middle-Age "redesign".. like Falling Love.

But I might be wrong and the Greek may have some kind of despair.... although I am quite positive it was very different from ours... but still you could have a small line coming from the agriculture period as you state...in this case you could be completely right (like both being right :))

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 06:01:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Simonides of Ceos, c. 500 BC:
Danae and Perseus

Ω ΤΕΚΟΣ, ΟΙΟΝ ΕΧΩ ΠΟΝΟΝ.
ΣΥ Δ' ΑΩΤΕΙΣ,
ΓΑΛΑΘΗΝΩ Δ' ΗΤΟΡΙ ΚΝΩΣΣΕΙΣ
ΕΝ ΑΤΕΡΠΕΙ ΔΟΥΡΑΤΙ ΧΑΛΚΕΟΓΟΜΦΩ
ΤΩΔΕ ΝΥΚΤΙΛΑΜΠΕΙ ΚΥΑΝΕΩ ΔΝΟΦΩ ΤΑΘΕΙΣ.
ΑΛΜΑΝ Δ' ΥΠΕΡΘΕΝ ΤΕΑΝ ΚΟΜΑΝ
ΒΑΘΕΙΑΝ ΠΑΡΙΟΝΤΟΣ ΚΥΜΑΤΟΣ ΟΥΚ ΑΛΕΓΕΙΣ
ΟΥΔ' ΑΝΕΜΟΥ ΦΘΟΓΓΟΝ
ΠΡΟΦΥΡΕΑ ΚΕΙΜΕΝΟΣ ΕΝ ΧΛΑΝΙΔΙ,
ΠΡΟΣΩΠΟΝ ΚΑΛΟΝ ΠΡΟΦΑΙΝΩΝ.
ΕΙ ΔΕ ΤΟΙ ΔΕΙΝΟΝ ΤΟ ΓΕ ΔΕΙΝΟΝ ΗΝ,
ΚΑΙ ΚΕΝ ΕΜΩΝ ΡΗΜΑΤΩΝ ΛΕΠΤΟΝ ΥΠΕΙΧΕΣ ΟΥΑΣ.
ΚΕΛΟΜΑΙ Σ' ΕΥΔΕ, ΒΡΕΦΟΣ
ΕΥΔΕΤΩ ΔΕ ΠΟΝΤΟΣ,
ΕΥΔΕΤΩ Δ' ΑΜΕΤΡΟΝ ΚΑΚΟΝ.

Oh son, what unbearable pain I' m in!
But you sleep serenely
in the blue darkness of the night,
lying down in this cheerless brass-bound chest.
Oh fair little face,
nestled in your purple cloak,
you don't feel the salt of the scudding waves over your hair,
nor the roaring wind.
Thank god, you don't feel the danger
And you don't sense my despair!
Sleep my baby!
And let the sea sleep!
And let this torment end!

Quintus Curtius Rufus in De Rebus Gestis Alexandri Magni:

Desperatio magnum ad honeste moriendum incitamentum.

Despair is a great incentive to honorable death.

William Shakespeare in The Tragedy of King Richard the Second:

Discomfort guides my tongue And bids me speak of nothing but despair.

Also Shakespeare in The Winter's Tale:

He who has never hoped can never despair.

One extra, from Warring States period China, Chu state courtier Qu Yuan's famed Li Sao from c. 300 BC, re-telling his story of how his king did not listen to his advice, even believewds slander and forced him into exile, and how then the Chu kingdom collapsed. Its title is translated either as The Lament, On Encountering Trouble, Encountering Sorrow, Sorrow After Departure -- or as In The Arms of Despair:

...In sadness plunged and sunk in deepest gloom,
Alone I drove on to my dreary doom.
In exile rather would I meet my end,
Than to the baseness of their ways descend.

...Their blame endured and their reproach beside.
To die for righteousness alone I sought,
For this was what the ancient sages taught.

...On orchid-covered bank I loosed my steed,
And let him gallop by the flow'ry mead
At will. Rejected now and in disgrace,
I would retire to cultivate my grace.

...And then the prince, who counsels disobeyed,
Did court disaster, and his kingdom fade.
A prince his sage in burning cauldrons tossed;
His glorious dynasty ere long was lost.

...Thus I despaired, my face with sad tears marred,
Mourning with bitterness my years ill-starred;
And melilotus leaves I took to stem
The tears that streamed down to my garment's hem.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 01:03:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It seem Shakespeare really nail it...the present picture.

I have however strong reservation about the root desperatio... the meaning was clearly different those times... specially given its uses...

I have always wondered if desperatio had strong links with the modern version. In a word.. I always wondered if modern uses co-opted the word or it had a link through the MIddle-Age.

It seems that you are right and Shakespeare pick up the topic and gave it the modern meaning relating despair with hope... but I am still not sure the latin despeatio had a reasonably simialr symbolic universe...

Although.. you may be right (and the above post) and there is a continuous thread from the first agricultural empires..

I only can certain than outside agricultural empire despair was non-existant.. American idnian ahd a nother compeltely different concept ... in some cases similar of "lack of help".

South American tribes lack it or have weird connotation.

And in the case of Africa.. well... no idea.. never look into it... I would like to see if the Dowayos have something similar (doubtful but possible).

You now fired my curiosity .. let's see what I find about a possible continuoum thread of desperatio from the first agricultural Empires to the Middle-Ages.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 02:54:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would be even more curious of what you could dig up about non-urban, non-agricultural cultures and despair.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 04:17:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I now created a spin-off thread.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 04:53:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hi Millman... I really hope you can read this second comment.

Your insight was absolutely great.

After some bibliographical research I found that Hope/Despair (as a couple) did appear in early urban centers of chrsitianity (as I recalled reading without knowing even the proper century))... on the other hand.. you were completely right on one thing. Hope, by itself had a strong imaginery and symbolsm and relevance .. and pretty similar to our moder thinking  from early agricultural Empires!!!.
Christianity took a small concept related with other issues (like war, death and God-interactions) "desperatio" and compeltely rebrand it giving it more or less our presence meaning coupling it with Hope (Shakespeare basically fixed this idea without change)....

So yeah.. you were more right than I was... (you can read my comments down below answering to Dodo's claim that desperation is somehow in  a misterious way universal)

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 03:57:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Somehow, in a mysterious way?...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 04:14:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the kind of despair I meant is linked to cities, but indirectly. It is the despair of people stuck in villages or on farms stagnating or depopulating due to the sucking-away effect of urbanisation. (ET is very urbanite, so I'm unsure if anyone here has a clue of what I'm talking about -- maybe afew, ThatBritGuy?)

I also think that non-Western, non-modern, non-hit-by-urbanisation people also can know despair -- if they have been exposed to some natural or man-made menance for an extended period of time (drought, plagues, expansion of an empire getting stuck in some area).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 12:11:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
kcurie contends (on behalf of (some?) anthropologists) that other people just don't have some emotions we're familiar with. He seems to consider emotions a technology.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 12:22:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know, and I'm playing to counter him :-)

For the record, I think there is some truth in it.

On one hand, there is the difference in how we think about emotions/feelings: how we calssify them and what part of them we are conscious about, and what are emotions 'allowed' by the social context. Think of 19th-century "female hysteria", or present-day 'female intuition' vs. 'male creativity', for some crass examples. Also, the 'desperatio' of Romans may have had different connotations than modern English 'despair'.

On the other hand, the above is not a one-way street, notions in the public domain and social norms may influence the emotional development of individuals.

But I think kcurie and some Western anthropologists go too far, which is a symptom of Western culture :-)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 01:39:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well ti seems that desperatio was strongly changed in the middle_Ages.. teh actual meaning of deseratio was fixed at the alter stages of Antiquity...

from Moshe barash

"It was, so it seems, characteristic of Late Antiquity and the early Christian era that the internal struggle within our souls were projected as a violent conflict between clashing personifications. The classic literary formulation of this topic, composed in the transitional period between Late Antiquity and the early Middle Ages, is the well known Psychomachia by Prudentius, a Christian poet writing in the late fourth century and in the first years of the fifth (Prudentius).

Even in Christian culture, Prudentius did not invent the struggle between personifications of character traits and passions. Already Tertullian, writing two centuries before the author of the Psychomachia, conjured up the encounter between the passions, and compared it to the combats in the arena of his time (Tertullian). Prudentius and the tradition he initiated introduced two innovations that were of great consequence for the culture of Europe."

Accordign o him the answer is...

"The personifications of the passions, of mental states and types of character, as we now know them, emerged in a complex and extended process lasting for many centuries. Some personifications could be taken over, "ready made," as it were, from the abundant imagery bequeathed by the Roman Empire and its imperial propaganda, but others had to be created from scratch. This may explain the considerable differences in pace in the emergence and crystallization of the allegorical figures. One personification, such as that of Despair, may have been articulated many centuries later than another, such as Piety (pietas). Without taking up the problem of the transfer of imperial images into Christian culture, we should stress one simple fact. While in Late Antiquity Hope was a familiar concept and an accepted image, no allegorical figure of Despair has become widely known by the time of Prudentius. In the Psychomachia Hope does encounter passions, mainly Anger (Prudentius, pp. 85-90), but not Despair."

well... for despair is a very tenous link with Anitquity.. so thin I would bet is actually almos non-existent.

on the other hand... it seems hope was really an agricultural empire idea dating back  to pre_greek notions .. that's maybe waht MIllman was thinking on.

A pleasure


I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 03:01:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Your long quote speaks about Despair, not despair: the personification of an emotion, not the emotion itself. I would argue anyway that the personification of emotional states is a view on its way out in the modern West (surviving only in the reduced-to-dualism form of evil-me and angel-me).

For despair in antiquity, and even outside the West, I refer you to my quotes. It was very well there, even if not personified.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 04:07:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I m sorry to spoil you... I never go too far.. you know .. something called science :)

I have more than the previous post. But suffice to say:

Despair is definitely an early christian concept... changed and compeltely recosntructed from a very thin notion.
On the oher hand "Hope" has a strong link with Pre-Greek empires. Very similar iamginery actually.

It seems Shakespeare was just fixing the idea for the modern age... Early middle-Ages had already stablish the diccotomy Hope-Despair.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 03:06:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In this particular case I am trying to say that I had read that desperatio was related with urban christian centers.

Actually, more to the point now 8hthat I have rereseaerch biblio), the present notion of desperatio was created in the urban centers of Late anqiuity , Early Christianiy... and Shakespeare only fixed it (and maybe modern babble pshychology change it a little bit more).

Desperatio on roman times was related with lack of courage.. it was basically sin and the only continuous thread I can see with our present idea of despair was the lack of soem kind of internal strength (although the strenght required was quite different).

In a word... and to sum up desperatio was some kind of sin . during the Romans.. now is related asc ontrarian to Hope.

Actually it seems the early christian took the original idea for certain neo-current of platonism in Greece... leaving it absolutely unrecognizable to a Republican-Roman.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 03:29:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Desperatio on roman times was related with lack of courage..

My Roman quote seems to directly contradict that.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 04:09:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes.. I see. I see. I have a direct link to a very different statement about desperatio being a sin. trrying to solve the difference.

Probably a differenc in periods.. but not sure yet.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 05:16:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
First round of news.

Your quote comes from the early Empireal times. My quote came from the later Empire times.

I know now there had been a change in ideas about Despair during the Empire.. influenced by Greece. Actually this change could ahve certainly helped the transition towards Despair-Hope coupling in the  early christianity.

So my quote was not actually separated enough. Yours was.

Now I am trying to figure it out what Desperatio actually meant to the Romans. Very difficult. For two reasons. First and foremost ... try "desperation Rome" in google and you see the result.

On the other hand Desperatio was not a relevant issue... as Hope .at least this is clear from my previous comments.

I woudl love to see if it has nothing to do even the slightlest thing with the feeling of despair that Christians created more than that it was "personal" (this I give you.. it was a "personal reaction" too in Rome).... I am still searching.. but it is not going to be an easy answer.. it was not a relevant feeling.Your quote is actually the only thing I have found.... I keep searching...

At least one thing is clear.. desperation feeling changed compeltely from 50 BC to 400 AC... But I guess you will insist int hat somehow there is a common thread dating back to Agriculure societies and that somehow some societies who do nto ahve even the concept somehow still feel it.. You know I do not find it very scientifically :)... but I really love our discussions.. they make me search deeper...

Now it is just a mattter of proud :) and seeing if Millman was almost completely right or just absolutely  right about the origin of these two concepts.

A pleasure


I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 05:34:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Despair as a sin was seen as losing hope in the mercy of God. More precisely, the Christian's duty was to hope in salvation. Deciding one was too sinful to be forgiven was therefore... a sin.

This is from Chaucer's Canterbury Tales (14th century):

Now comes wanhope, that is despair of the mercy of God, that derives sometimes of too much outrageous grief, and sometimes of too much fear, imagining that he has committed so much sin that it would be of no help to him even if he repented and forsook sin; through this despair or fear he gives up all his heart to every manner of sin, as Saint Augustine says.

Parson's Tale, 690-695, my translation  ("wanhope" means "dis-hope" or "un-hope")

This is the parson who is preaching straight doctrine. There's a more popular reference, however, in the Miller's Tale, and I'll look out more on Shakespeare's use of despair (the word, which he certainly knew in the Christian sense of the hope/despair couple, hope leading to heaven, despair to hell (and I'd expect, but have no evidence to hand, that that imagery was set out in the medieval mystery plays). But also the emotions we might recognize as despair. I'll have to put this together tomorrow.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 05:22:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Then a little later, there's Bunyan's Slough of Despond, which is related to despair. Probably goes forward all the way to the 21st century, becoming more secular and worldly as it goes.

Why don't you break into the JSTORS archives and maybe we could have some woodcuts of drunken, fornicating peasants on the evening thread occasionally, for comic relief.

My inner groundling would like that.

Take care, will be back Sunday for election results.

"When the abyss stares at me, it wets its pants." Brian Hopkins

by EricC on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 06:38:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I know exactly what you're talking about.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 12:37:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I believe the high levels of violence and crime in U.S. society have cultural origins that are better addressed by discrediting the Right than by working to repeal or limit the (U.S., Colman ;-) Second Amendment. In fact, the association of "liberals" with gun control is one of the reasons Democrats have lost ground among working-class white people. I've been heartened by the rise of pro-gun Dems like Dean, James Webb and Jon Tester. If that's what it takes to get working-class white people back, I say go for it.

The Virginia Tech killings strike me as a tragic anomaly, almost like a freak tornado. It's going to be a real stretch for either side to make points. In this instance, anti-gun Americans can deplore the fact that it was legal for Cho to buy two firearms; pro-gun types will say it was a shame that it was illegal to have guns on campus, that the kids could have dispatched him before he killed so many of them, if only they had ALL been armed to the teeth.

But this tragedy should also remind us that the Second Amendment is interpreted differently in different places. The rough consensus that's been reached over the past few decades -- allowing cities like mine to institute some of the toughest, most punishing controls  on guns you'll find anywhere in the world, while letting rural and suburban Americans continue to indulge their macho shoot-em-up fantasies -- have had good results for us all. And if a few million of those gun lovers vote Democratic in 2008, we just might see the U.S. become a happier, less mean-spirited and less violent country.  
 

by Matt in NYC on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 12:27:38 AM EST
You are playing into the hands of the NRA. As The Stormy Present observed, "Nobody is calling for [a total gun ban], not the Brady people, not the Democratic leadership, nobody."

Thus, nobody is "working to repeal or limit" the Second Amendment. Regulation of firearms does not violate the Second Amendment, no matter what NRA propagandists might say.

McCain himself said that we must "make sure that these kinds of weapons don't fall into the hands of bad people". That is all that American gun control advocates want to accomplish. I don't see why you should find that objectionable.

Where I agree with you is that gun control has become an ideological issue with many liberals, analogous to abortion with the regressives. But just as long as they say that they like guns, I don't think that it's a mistake for Dems to say that guns should be regulated.

Upon reading your post a second time, I noticed that you say that the "punishing" gun laws of New York City are a mixed blessing. So I guess that I can see where you are coming from. I agree with you there. Stiff sentences are rarely a good solution to anything.

I wrote above that the U.S. should emulate Germany's approach to gun control. The NRA likes to portray shooting guns as a sport. So a way to start emulating Germany's approach would be to require anyone wanting to purchase a gun to belong to an officially recognized shooting club. That would make things difficult for loners like the Virginia Tech killer all by itself.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 01:27:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Virginia Tech killings strike me as a tragic anomaly

There's an illuminating diary on kos about this;-

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/4/17/11722/3117

...the same basic assumption seems to underpin all positions: That this shooting is an isolated incident, an incomprehensible rupture in the normally smooth social fabric, an unpredictable act of madness undertaken by a hopelessly aberrant individual.

That same basic assumption, if I recall correctly, was the predominant line of thinking after San Ysidro. After Austin. After Killeen. After Columbine. It seems to me that a pattern emerges, yes?

It's not that they are all gun crimes - the sort of trite, superficial answer that not only misses the point, but which ultimately obscures the actual, ugly truth of the matter. I mean that ours is a society which mass manufactures hopelessly aberrant individuals.

What I wish to do is suggest here that what we really have to look at is the type of people we (collectively, as a nation) are, and the type of people we are breeding and grooming our children to be. I posit that the sociopathic killers we fear and despise are not some monstrous "other" - they are just at an extreme end of an all-American bell curve, and that their "monstrous" characteristics are merely distorted magnifications of beliefs which most of us have, to some degree or another, assimilated and promulgated


keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 05:10:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Great diary. Good catch.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 06:02:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Imagine all nations and races have the same twisted curve at the end of it, for the most part.

The pseudo-psycho blathering and hand wringing at kos has been interesting to read the last two days. Almost as intersting as MSM, but so much more scholarly and PC.

Maybe the EU could send an armada, install QE2 as our new sovereign, and rewrite our Constitution.

But pack a good picnic basket and bring more than a knife:

It's a Second Amendment thang.

And I thank the several, usual America-bashing suspects here for the depth of the condolences expressed the last two days, and for the "concern" so fully pregnant and dripping with condesension.

Got to go wipe my eyes now.

 

"When the abyss stares at me, it wets its pants." Brian Hopkins

by EricC on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 06:13:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And I thank the several, usual America-bashing suspects here for the depth of the condolences expressed the last two days, and for the "concern" so fully pregnant and dripping with condesension.

Well, I know a lot of people fully believe I'm one of them there America-bashers, so I'll step up and reply by saying that our "concern" is beside the point. It's your country and you'll do what you like, and if that includes the annual slaughter-by-gun of 10,000 of your citizens then so be it.

Condescension ? Well yea I guess, if you wanna call it that, personally I call it bafflement. After all, whatever you might think about our attitude to your country, we get to live in the world your govt allows us, so it is the nature of this site that we want to understand what makes it tick. If there's important cultural stuff we don't understand we'll discuss it.

Now if talking about you is condescending, just wait till we ignore you entirely.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 06:25:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Now if talking about you is condescending, just wait till we ignore you entirely."

TEHe! Foiled again. Just when I thought my and America's Trusted Abuser(er User) status was kicking in here.

Just one thought here generally:

Americans are not George Bush. We are not the US government or its policies. We love our president about as much as you do. But we are individuals, not the "dark one". WE ARE NOT GEORGE BUSH.

I don't care what anyone thinks of me. I write what I believe. I write about the US I know. I don't prognosticate on European situations as I don't know much about the politics. I ask the best questions I can, given my relative ignorance of Europe.

Some of the European views of the US , expressed here by Europeans, some of whom have spent some litlle education or business time in the US, read often, like upside down Python parodies.

Parodies are amusing, but they are not reality.

We can do better all the way around at understanding each other, I think.

"When the abyss stares at me, it wets its pants." Brian Hopkins

by EricC on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 07:23:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But I have always taken care to point out the difference between the US zeitgeist and the individual.

Zeitgeist is a perception of course - the 'intellectual and cultural climate of an era'. The msm play a large part in establishing those perceptions. But the fact remains that Georgie-Boy was twice elected. so he won a majority (possibly) of people who cared to vote. That is a lot of individuals - whether he really won or not.

You are right in the sense that the US is a big place with a lot of people, and that it displays as much regional variation as Europe. For example, between Finland and Greece.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 08:55:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps, but at least not of the frothing at the mouth variety.

Anyway:

Viva Mannerheim!

"When the abyss stares at me, it wets its pants." Brian Hopkins

by EricC on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 01:33:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You can't have no guns, you're on the double secret no-fly list!!!
by Lasthorseman on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 07:09:25 AM EST
Modern Americans often trivialise the Second Amendment. It has nothing to do with protecting alleged rights to hunt or have shootouts with criminals. If you consider the circumstances and ideology of late eighteenth century Americans (as well as reading the debates about the Bill of Rights) it is obvious that the amendment has two or perhaps three purposes.

One, perhaps the most practically important when the Bill of Rights was written but obsolete today, was to ensure that there were people trained as a militia (thus the 'well regulated militia') who could be called upon in time of war and emergency. The United States had almost no standing Army in 1789. There was also a militia law passed in the 1790s and still nominally in force today that made the whole adult free male population of the United States members of the unorganised militia.

The next purpose was to further guarantee to the states that the federal government would not prohibit them having a militia. This right was really rendered worthless during the Reconstruction period, after the Civil War. The modern National Guard, which is both the state militias and a federal military unit, neatly sidesteps the militia provisions of the constitution. No doubt the founding fathers would be horrified by such a federal tyranny.

What people like James Madison regarded as the most important purpose of the second amendment, was to provide the people with the means to rebel against a tyrannical government. It was no doubt much easier for a civilian to acquire a flintlock musket than to equip himself with a set of modern military equipment, let alone join up with his neighbours as an effective army. This amendment may still have some purpose, although if any group wants to try out the safeguard of rebellion they had better make sure they win the civil war. Even in the early days of the Republic the federal government was willing and able to put down local rebellions. It was eventually able to do the same to a large breakaway Confederacy in the 1860s.

I doubt the modern US government has less capacity to repress rebellions than the Americas of George Washington and Abraham Lincoln.

by Gary J on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 12:45:43 PM EST
Don't the National Guard and Army reserve constitute the "well-organised militia" making the first purpose obsolete?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 01:05:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps, were it not for the Bushies making every effort to destroy the two.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 02:05:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it is always useful to look behind the myths that nations have constructed for themselves especially their foundation, and put actions in context. This is particularly true of the USA where the nonsense about the price of tea persists (In reality it was a tax dispute over the cost of defending the colonies and most of the protagonists really objected to taxes on paper)

There is also the idea that they were somehow uniquely American. Well let's look at them in context and now regard them as Englishmen with a grievance against the government (the power of the monarchy had already been substantially eroded). The English have always been a stroppy lot and there was nothing different in the 17th and 18th centuries. Neither were they constructing the Constitution in isolation and like those who cut and paste today, its writers drew on other sources. Most notable among these was the Bill of Rights of 1689. If you look at its structure you can see in it the framework for the Declaration of Independance as well as phrases that will be familiar to those who know that and the Constitution.

If we remember that much of this was essentially a means of protecting the English from Catholic rule, if necessary by open revolt in either a civil war or overthrow of a monarch, we can see how it was thought necessary to have a group of Protestants who had the means to engage in that fight. Thus after listing the grievances against James II, Parliament went on:

the said lords spiritual and temporal, and commons ... do in the first place (as their ancestors in like case have usually done) for the vindicating and asserting their ancient rights and liberties, declare;

...

  1. That the raising or keeping a standing army within the kingdom in time of peace, unless it be with consent of parliament, is against law

  2. That the subjects which are protestants, may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions, and as allowed by law.

The tradition therefore is to see a standing army as the creature of the king (or in the case of the US, the government) which could be used as a means of suppressing the rights of the (Protestant) citizen. The ultimate protection of their religious rights was to have weapons.

The historic purpose of the "right to bear arms" is therefore not in protection of the individual against another individual nor, as is often assumed, to protect the country against an external enemy. It is so that the citizens can revolt against the oppressive power of their own government.  

by Londonbear on Thu Apr 19th, 2007 at 08:09:46 AM EST


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