Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.

left vs right (relentlessly, shamelessly)

by Jerome a Paris Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 05:46:45 AM EST

Never one to miss out on the big fights on DailyKos, let me revisit today one of my most commented upon diaries: Is DailyKos a rightwing site?.

But instead of jumping right in with provocative statements, let me try instead to try to bring about some definitions.

As others may have noticed, "leftists", after having been used to label any non Al-Qaeda "extremist", whether shadowy sabotageurs in Mexico, Michael Moore, Hugo Chavez or US opponents to the war in Afghanistan, is now casually and regularly used to describe any opposition party the conventional wisdom dislikes (see for instance in Mexico or in France).

Promoted by whataboutbob


I often joke (bitterly) that anyone to the left of Tony Blair (which would have been undoubtedly labelled a rightwing politician 30 years ago) is called an extremist nowadays, but that simply reflects how far these labels have moved lately, including on Dailykos.

To keep things simple, in the good old days, you could use the following (partly simplistic distinctions):

the right


freedom, the rich, ownership, stability & tradition (against change), individual rights, nationalism

the left


equality, the poor, workers, progress, the common good, (class) solidarity, history on our side

I'm neither an historian, nor a philosopher, nor a labor specialist, so don't ask me to go into much more detail... What matters is that in the past 30 years, we've seen a massive change in the values associated with both sides, as the result of a massive push of the right to change the terms of the debate, and capture new ground. As that fight was first waged in the US, many of you are in a better position to describe how that took place (via well funded think tanks, mindless but systematic repetition of vaguely plausible talking points, and relentless and shameless attempts to shame the media into compliant complicity), but the results are as follows:

the right


freedom, prosperity, ownership, change (towards more liberty), individual rights, nationalism, history on our side

the left


poverty, pampered minority, effete intellectuals, blaoted bureaucracy,  laziness and privilege, treason

The end of the Soviet Union, which discredited the ideology they were running on, i.e. communism, helped massively to create the link between right wing policies and prosperity (vs left wing and poverty), and more precisely between individual selfsihness and collective prosperity - indeed, it took out any residual sense of shame at pursuing profit and eschewing solidarity in the economic sphere. But this would not have happened without the right loudly, relentlessly, shamelessly proclaiming its values and positions and repeating them ad nauseam.

They did not shut out their extremes - quite to the contrary, they gave them loudspeakers and stood by them shamelessly, relentlessly, which had a twin effect:

  1. it got their ideas in the public sphere, and got people slowly used to them;
  2. it forced the mainstream to take these ideas seriously, as even familiar moderates stood by them.

By additional shameless, relentless hounding the media for bias, it managed to get them to stick to "neutrality", i.e. stating the ideas presented on both sides without commenting on them. With one side sticking to business as usual, and the other pulling to ever more extremist positions, the middle steadily shifted right, a self-sustaining and self-fulfilling process after a while. Soon, the moderates of the left were treated with the same respect as the extremists of the right, and were no longer called moderates.

A fundamental insight was that the extremes of the right did not hide from that "extremist" label - they just wanted it to apply to their supposed mirror image on the left: the moderates and the centrists, leaving the traditional right in the comfortable role of bipartisan, moderate centrists, and forcing pundits, ever mindful of not taking sides, to parrot traditional right wing positions.

Blogs have started to fight back against this trend, by arguing relentlessly, shamelessly for points that would have been called moderate left a while back, but were treated as extremist just a few years ago. By claiming that ground relentlessly, shamelessly, it was brought back into the mainstream.

But while bloggers are aware of this topic on topics they care about (usually, to start with, the war on Iraq, or the rule of law), they may not necessarily be aware that the same effort needs to be done on other topics that they worry less about. What has been most impressive about the propaganda effort of the right is that it has been all-encompassing - social values, foreign policy, the economy, patriotism, they have swept everything, and influenced the discourse on every single topic. So, on topics that kossacks care less about, they will simply reflect what they have heard superficially, which is still, today, right wing talking points.

As a European, this strikes me particularly with respect to the "common wisdom" on topics I know well, like European politics and European economy. Unless you are a specialist of these issues in the US, it is highly unlikely that you will know much beyond things like "Europe is free-riding on our military", "they have a stagnant economy", "they have sclerotic labor markets", "they just want oil contracts in Iraq or Iran", etc..., each of which is just as true (not) as " Democrats lost the Vietnam War" or "Clinton failed to fight Ben Laden".

And on the economy, it's pretty much the same thing - but it's the core issue, everything else essentially being a distraction. "Government is part of the problem, not of the solution", the "American dream", "unions are losers trying to protect privileges they don't deserve", "taxes are bad", "if the Dow Jones is up, all is well" are similarly false messages that the right has managed to pound by sheer relentless, shameless repetition into America's collective consciousness and that are now mindlessly repeated by kossacks when they broach such topics without specialist knowledge.

To me, the brainwashing on the economy is no different to that on Iraq and one does not go without the other.  To me, if you're on the left, you need to fight both.

Where things gets tricky is that, of course, those that have stayed away (or emerged from) from the rightist Iraqi delusions may not have done the same work on the economic front, and continue to stick to conventional wisdom on that topic, not knowing better, as the topic has (or had) less urgency. And the accusations of being rightwing, while understandable if you have that wider perspective on that specific issue, are, quite naturally, not well received.

The fight to bring back the debate to the genuine middle, and not to that defined by the neocons as the mid point between their extremist views and those of "centrists" like Lieberman is, to a large extent, won on some fronts like Iraq. But these successful counterattacks (which bring back the status quo, but in a context where irreversible damage has been caused by the Bush administration to the soft power and to the very idea of America) have yet to tackle issues like inequality, poverty and the indispensable role of government as the custodian of the common good, which have been wrecked by the rightist assault of the past 30 years.

The simple fact that people that describe themselves as reasonable conservatives can feel at home on DailyKos only shows how far things have moved. The middle, mindlessly identified by the media as the average of the "normal" rightist (McCain) and the "normal" leftist (Clinton), is to the right of many people that voted for Reagan or see themselves as conservatives but otherwise care enough to refuse to give up on values of solidarity, community or decency - mainstay rightwing voters a few decades ago, and "strident leftists" today. But that also means that the economic values of many of these supposed "leftists" are closer to those of the traditional right (self-reliance, belief in markets) than to those of the left (collective bargaining, the need for regulation) - and I say that fully aware that the middle between left and right in the US has been quite different to that in Europe.

What this means is simply that the fight is far from over, and that it must be waged against the real enemy, the neo-libs (or call them the markestistas if you prefer), rather than internally. The success of bloggers in changing the terms of the debate on Iraq - in forcing through the consciousness that that invasion was a catastrophe and a terrible strategic mistake must be repeated on the economic front. This will be done by standing relentlessly, shamelessly by ideas that are today labelled as "leftist" or "extremist", but that will lose these labels only if someone actually fights for them and stands by them, to slowly pull back the center on that front too.

And that will come by repeating relentlessly, shamelessly the following:

 the right


privilege, the rich, selfishness, lack of social mobility, inequality, jingoism

the left


equality, the poor, workers, progress, the common good, (class) solidarity, facts on our side

Because, never forget, the rich are waging war on the poor and, as Warren Buffett noted, they are winning. Ultimately, Iraq is just a distraction - but it is a great tool to wage that particular war.

Display:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/7/17/154732/138

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 06:08:40 PM EST
Interesting. A lot of people have commented that the "progressive" blogosphere isn't very good at social policy, most being either middle class, or at least too well-educated to have blue-collar concerns (beyond health care). Yet it is issues of sical policy that should be their bread and butter, but as you say, that's the shifting of the "centre" for you.

However, I was interested in your description of terms. Migeru and I exchanged ideas recently about the meanings of liberalism and libertarianism in europe and the US. I think that many such concepts make no sense in terms of a merely left-right axis but must take account of the up down version.

As right, left, liberal and authoritarian are labels too open to pre-conception, I have tentatively relabelled them;-
"right" as selfish,
"left" as selfless
"authoritarian" as command structure
"liberal" as co-operative structure

This then allows the existing labels to be entered as states on the graph, not necessarily at the extremes. You'll then find that the shift in ideas that you report have considerable vertical dimensions to them. It's something I'm trying to knock into a diary, although my lack of html and graphic experience constrains me.


keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 06:31:23 PM EST
The left: "history on our side." Sounds biased, but, it's becoming more and more true, especially in the US. As a popular political comedian, Stephen Colbert put it, "Reality has a well-known liberal bias"-taking a swipe at conservatives who claim anything that is not biased in their favor is-um-biased. (Yes, that includes independent publications and networks)
by pelcan on Sun Jul 22nd, 2007 at 05:14:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good luck. I also tried reframing the issues a while back:

The End of Left-Right Politics

On the other side letting some conservative "moderates" be front page posters on dKos may be a good thing. It can prevent the site as being seen as an arm of the Democratic Party. If a site is too closely associated with a specific party or candidate it colors everything that is posted. This leads to a loss of credibility.

Just look at Redstate to see how to become irrelevant.

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 06:34:22 PM EST
But kos isn't a policy site. It is principally about electing Democrats to congress, even Blue Dog ones. They make no bones about that, Trapper John had a diary on that very subject "You can't spell DailyKos without a Big Capital D"

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/7/10/102519/515

He quotes Kos

This is a Democratic blog, a partisan blog. One that recognizes that Democrats run from left to right on the ideological spectrum, and yet we're all still in this fight together.

there are other blogs where thinking progressives and conservatives can duke it out. Kos is about electing Democrats.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 06:44:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've commented on this before. Markos is politically naive (but learning). He is confusing means with ends. The end should be creating a more equitable, sustainable society.

It just so happens that most often Dems are closer to this position than Republicans. But that doesn't mean that all Dems should be supported or that others shouldn't be given preference if their positions are closer to what is wanted. Kos has no problem with Senator Bernie Sanders who is a socialist independent.

If the goal is really just getting Dems elected than the site is just an arm of the Dem party and loses most of its credibility.

Unlike Europe there are no true leftists in the US. The rump parties that still exist don't even get 1% of the vote and never get any air time.

What's the point in electing a Dem majority if the are only going to be Republican Lite?

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 07:00:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What's the point in electing a Dem majority if the are only going to be Republican Lite?

Oh undoubtedly. But tactically in the hsort term he'll take republican-lite over republican-enabler It is why he slams Olympia snowe and why he fought hard against chaffee. They may have been left-leaning republicans, but they were still Bush-enablers.

He has spoken at length about the need to improve the quality of washington democrats, nor does he make any bones about the fact that better = more liberal. He supported the push for Lamont over Lieberman, he has supported netroots candidates over establishment ones in numerous primaries. He is entirely consistent in that he will, through the primary system attempt to promote any democrat who challenges republican ideology. But will support any democrat against any republican.

Read "Crashing the Gate", he doesn't hide what he's doing and, whatever I think of his politics, I agree with his tactics every step of the way

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 05:16:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's easy to underestimate how difficult this issue is. On the one hand sane people are going to want sane representatives now. On the other hand the Beltway culture is squirming with drooling idiot consultants, and it's going to take years to clean them out.

You can change the representatives, or you can start to reframe the debate. The Dems so far have been spectacularly bad at the latter. Only Edwards seems to have a message that isn't based on right wing talking points.

It's easy to bash Kos, but I think he has acknowledged that his plan is progressive, not just party-based. Where the right will usually defend one of their own  no matter what their crimes are, no one on dKos is defending corrupt Dems.

I suppose it's pragmatic to assume you have to start where you are and begin to push the window back in the direction you want. It's a start, even though it's also frustrating.

If the Dems ever regain power in full, it's going to be interesting to see what dKos turns into.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 08:25:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think there are a lot of blue dog Dems who are going to have to face primary challenges from netroot candidates for some time. It's entirely likely that the Dmes will win in 2008, but it will still be full of K street loving corporate whores. You won't clean the stables with one swing of the hose and the Kos project will have a lot to do for a long time to come.

As much as anything, I hope it will act as a policeman on their behaviour to prevent the corruption that brought about the Gingrich revolution.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 08:40:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They kill less!

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 06:28:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Anyone who says there's no left or right any longer is on the right. There is still a need for unabashed leftism.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 06:48:30 PM EST

Anyone who says there's no left or right any longer is on the right.

Spot on.
Hint - look at qualifiers like "pragmatist" for supposedly leftwing politicians.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 07:06:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Right-O

I suppose we could call them whores, but that's really an insult.

At least whores work for a living.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 07:44:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was amazed to see the FT extol Zapatero as "centrist". It must be that even they can see the People's Party is a joke.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 04:03:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the left
freedom, prosperity, ownership, change (towards more liberty), individual rights, nationalism, history on our side

the right

poverty, pampered minority, effete intellectuals, bloated bureaucracy, laziness and privilege, treason

Aside from nationalism and ownership (unless you count collective ownership) it's interesting how much more sense these make if you swap them around.

Projection by the rightists, as usual.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jul 17th, 2007 at 08:33:29 PM EST
very good post, J, thanks.

almost a manifesto!

i am concerned how few voters actually are willing to get into such apparently ideological debates, however.

their buttons are much more pavlovian, and less cerebral.

war and the losses from it are only possible to endorse if winning and progress are visible, and in iraq it's painfully obvious to all but a few deluded neocons that it is one of the biggest foreign policy mistakes in world history.

the rosy view of the american dream dangles pavlovian carrots, such as a 'booming' stock market, encouragement to become instant entrepreneurs, big wins at vegas, your chance to go on 'american idol', etc as lures, as bait.....

and the average sucker gobbles up the fantasy, in his own mind he could be the next bill gates....become a 'somebody', get 'respect'...

this intellectual approach works only with the well-educated, and then those who value the common weal as worthy goal, rather than the 'devil take the hindmost' approach, as in: 'i got mine and fuck you'.

i do believe energy and the changes in public perception around it are where the rubber meets the road, yet it will not divide people along left-right axis, so much as 'educate yourself, it's the only way to learn to discern agendas'.

both left and right want the fossil fool era to continue, educated people on both sides want better policies.

uneducated people just follow the herd, sometimes against their own best interests.

perhaps populism cannot be intellectual, because most folks' brains just don't know how to stretch that far, just as i would find it near-impossible to study quantum physics or abstract mathematics, unless i had a very patient guide.

perhaps the role of blogs, (i find this true personally), is to popularise the intellectual, by giving it more personality, releasing it from dry-as-dust pedagogy, or wonky treatises, into the sphere of rough-and-tumble, no-holds-barred debate, spiced and sparkling with personality and yoomah.
i could even learn quantum physics if presented with enough wit and philosophy!

maybe i'll win the lottery and i can hire migeru as private tutor...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 03:14:22 AM EST
i am concerned how few voters actually are willing to get into such apparently ideological debates, however.

their buttons are much more pavlovian, and less cerebral.

See Tribal politics by Colman on July 17th, 2007

One of the problems with the Left is that it used to have a class rhetoric, and a tribal (pavlovian?) allegiance to (by) the working class, which was to its advantage as it made a social movement and mass parties possible. As the left parties have become more mainstream, attained power, and realised some social gains, they became more middle-class parties, and while they are still concerned with solidarity they downplayed class and in effect destroyed the tribal base of their political power. Many left leaders have been people who benefitted from social mobility to join the middle class from a working class background, but the next generation of left leaders started out from a middle-class background, effectively on the wrong side of the class divide.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 04:19:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And we get back to the problem that the new working classes believe they're middle class, which makes them individual and aspirational and completely disinterested in working with anyone to improve anything at all.

See e.g. the quality of insight and reasoning shown here.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 05:05:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, you only tend to get solidarity AGAINST something and it used to be quite clear where the battle lines were drawn.

Mill owner owned t'mill: horny handed sons of toil worked for him.

Them vs Us. Capital vs Labour.

In a knowledge based economy things are more diffuse, and deliberately obscured.

Working class/ Middle class and the rest are no longer useful concepts it seems to me.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 05:23:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The difficulty is that the middle class classification has grown to encompass employees who earn as much as the self-employed professionals who originally occupied it. As I understand it, by original definitions, I'm middle class since I'm self-employed but Jérôme is working class since he collects a pay packet from an employer. The extent to which you can earn a self-employed living qualifies that I think: Sam probably qualifies as middle-class since she's a qualified accountant and tax consultant and could easily set-up a private practice and make a good living off it.

I could be misunderstanding definitions here though.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 05:29:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I could be misunderstanding definitions here though.

In fact I believe I probably am. I should do some work rather than make atonement though ...
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 05:30:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, let's look at that some. Which of the following criteria are relevant? You can rank people by income, by disposable income, and by wealth and classify them by education, by profession and by whether or not they are self-employed/self-employable.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 05:40:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One of the reasons I believe an "Open" Corporate like an LLP is so radical is that it enables us to be both "self employed" (certainly as far as the tax man is concerned it IS a partnership)and yet still engaged with others to a common purpose.

As Marx had it, in his early work, this "Abolishes" Labour ie working FOR someone (Capital= "the Man") as opposed to WITH someone.

Marx also wrote about the abolition of "Property".

Well, it enables that, too.

 

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 06:29:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's really a matter of personal freedom.

How much of your life do you have to sell to others? Would you prefer the freedom not to have to sell it at all?

If you're not free enough to have that choice, you're working class. If you're middle class you have more choices, but still - if you're selling, you're not free.

If you're buying, especially wholesale, you're one of the owners.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 08:12:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
that the right has exploited.

They will talk to me by treating me as a high earner (lower taxes!, freedom to choose your pensions yourself!, freedom to work more and earn more!, you deserve and what you earn!) and will talk to my wife (self-employed) by treating her as an entrepreneur (less bureaucracy and government on your back! entrepreuneurs create prosperity! public servants should not go on strike and disturb hard working citizens!)...

The left needs to similarly adapt its discourse. For the wage earner (safety at work! tax capital rather than labor! invest in infrastructure for our kids! protect pensions!) or the independent worker (guaranteed access to healthcare! education and professional training for all!  even playing field for all! rule of law!).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 05:44:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree with that, they aren't especially useful concepts when it comes to trying to define how people band together around political ideologies.

I'm middle class in the classic sense (that you outline above), based not just on where I am now but where I came from as well. So I'm not a working class girl done good, I've always been middle class.  

But, I have experienced oppression and discrimination since I first arrived in the world - it wasn't borne out of poverty or the labour force hierarchy, but out of other social factors.  For that reason, I find it very hard to identify myself as middle class because I didn't have the usual priviledges that come with that position.  I'd be an utter hypocrite to say I was working class though.

That's why the definitions don't work for me, because people can move across the definitions and class alone ignores other factors that cause inequality.

I do think that when it comes to creating solidarity against something, anyone with the right attitude can join the fight against inequality, even when they don't necessarily experience it themselves.  That type of leftism/socialism that I buy into doesn't require me to say I am working class and therefore have the 'right' (for want of a better word) to be on the left.

Society is much more complex now and the divides are not so clear cut. I don't think that classical class status automatically puts people into a particular political ideology, it's far more based on what people believe is the type of society they want to live in and where they see themselves in that picture.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 07:00:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm convinced that almost everyone would be at least moderately left-wing if they were acting in their own long-term self interest. Unless you happen to be a member of the super-rich elite, you don't benefit from free-market policies in the long run, and it's arguable that even the super-rich are guaranteed to benefit in the long run: cf guillotine, firing squad.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 07:09:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But look around at how behave react and behave now, they don't act in their own long term interests, they act for instant gratification.  Why do people rack up thousands on credit cards? They don't need all of that stuff right here, right now.  They want it. Rather than save up, they get it now and pay later.

Are most people actually that capable of thinking abstractly in the longer term to place themselves within a left wing way of thinking?  Unless that 'me, me, me' culture is broken, people won't think to act collectively in a left wing way, and even given the opportunity to - would they really?

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:08:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the end of the Soviet Union has been used to drum the point that selfishness is good and actually increases prosperity for others so it's even virtuous.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:50:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That was the point I was trying to make about the need to break the 'me, me, me' culture  But I am not sure I have that much faith in human nature for individuals to reach the conclusion that their self interests are best served through equality and collectivity.  

It would take that Anti-'me, me, me' culture being well established for most people to accept that socialism is a good way to be.  But I find it so hard to see how the current legacy of Thatcher/Reagan/others can be broken to bring about a change in attitude to create a more left wing one.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 12:19:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nope, most people are either stupid or willfully ignorant.

There is no such thing as "grass roots". "Mobs", however ...

by Number 6 on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 12:20:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think in leftist (e.g. Marxist) discourse, classes weren't originally meant to be rigid valid-for-every-individual categories, but a 'big picture'. Tendencies, not determinism. (Comparable to 'nations', except nationalism pretends otherwise per definitionem.) On the other hand, I note people often don't even notice all the subtle differences in their lifes that lead to a virtual segregation -- which can include the shops and eat-outs you visit (even if in the same price class), the jokes you laugh and frown at, or even which train (at what hour) you commute on.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 07:17:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Class, and consciousness thereof, is indeed not something one is born with - you really have to work at it from a Marxist perspective, I'm thinking specifically of your countryman Lukács in particular.

But while this is true, and therefore there is some blurring of the boundaries of class from one perspective, imho a proper view of class from a Marxist point of view is that there is only one class which can achieve true class consciousness, and that is the working class, the proletariat.

The simple reason for this, and someone on this thread alludes to it, is that working men and women have only themselves to sell, and so stand in direct opposition to those who employ them, the owners of the capital and their agents. Because workers are so directly in opposition, by their very being, to capitalism, workers, and only workers, can understand that the struggle is and continues to be towards one goal - progress and liberation for all. And when you have the pensée unique stuff which even many on the so-called left give voice to - you know, there is no other way, inevitability, capitalism is the only way, maybe we can regulate it a bit but the more unfettered the better - this is classic, textbook false consciousness.

That's my understanding of a Marxist analysis of class, anyhow.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:18:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In the US, the capital classes have come up with an ingenuous way of blurring class distinctions: employee stock-ownership plans.

This caused two things to happen, both advantageous to capital:

  1. Allowed a transition from defined benefit pensions to much riskier, cheaper to capital in the long term, defined contribution plan

  2. Succesfully led whole segments of the working classes to believe they were stakeholders as well, their retirement depended on being cooperative stakeholders, and consequently, aligned the interests of workers with those of the owners of capital. This was done for less than free to the monied classes - defined contribution plans are cheaper for them to provide than defined benefit plans.

Ronald Reagan, who really got this ball rolling in the US (I think Thatcher did similar in the UK) was a genius of Irish diplomacy - he convinced a whole generation of blue-collar and low-level white-collar workers that they ought to go to hell, and so far, they're still enjoying the trip.

Though the past six years may be wearing that spell off.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:00:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
represent an absurdly low percentage of company ownership. You always have that blurb about 50% of Americans owning shares; a huge majority of these 50% own less than 5,000$ of stock.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:52:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wasn't Enron a good example of this?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 12:15:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The employee ownership plan was one thing; what killed workers is that their pension plans were also invested predominantly in Enron stock, an incredibly imprudent thing to do (you shouldn't be betting your whole pension entitlement on one company).

And then there was outright fraud at the top.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 12:22:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
From a portfolio management perspective, it's even worse - you're betting not just your retirement, but also your unemployment insurance protection (in the US, unemployment benefits are damn-near non-existent, so folks who are thrown out of work very often borrow against their 401K or other investment vehicle or simply ask for hardship withdrawals) not just on one company, but on the very same company whose fate is directly linked to your own.

When a company goes belly-up or decides to lay you off, more often than not it's value is in the tank as well, as is yours, so you get double-whammied.

Big big no no, that, and yet it is extremely common to see this happen, I believe now a majority of employer-match contributions are in company stock, which makes it virtually impossible for a working person to have his or her savings match up with his or her appropriate risk-aversion profile, and thus, it remains a province of the rich, and the rich virtually alone, to get a portfolio with a maximized sharpe ratio.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 12:34:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not just Enron, a great many defined benefit pension plans went bankrupt when the company collapsed.

There is some protection in this case.  In the 1960s, the Studebaker Auto Corporation closed their South Bend, Indiana plant, leaving their workers with only pennies on the dollar for their pensions.

The closing of the Studebaker automobile plant in South Bend, Indiana, is generally regarded as a pivotal event in the history of the movement toward comprehensive federal regulation of private pension plans. On December 9, 1963, Studebaker Corporation announced that it was closing its automotive manufacturing plant in South Bend, Indiana, and consolidating its remaining automating activity at its Hamilton, Ontario, plant. This announcement followed a long period in which the American plant had been losing money. As a result of the plant closing, some 5,000 workers were dismissed in addition to the 2,000 that has already been laid off. In the end, 1,800 workers eventually lost their jobs. The dismissed workers were members of the United Automobile Workers and were covered under a single-employer defined benefit pension plan negotiated between the United Auto Workers (UAW) and Studebaker.

When the plant closed, the UAW and Studebaker entered into an agreement settling the terms for terminating the plan. The termination did not produce litigation; it implemented default priorities contained in the plan and divided the participants into three groups: 3,600 retirees and active workers who had already reached the permitted age of 60; approximately 4,000 employees, aged 40 to 59, who had at least ten years of service with Studebaker and whose pension benefits had therefore vested; and a residual group of 2,900 workers who had no vested rights.

Persons in the first group had the first claim on the pension assets; they received full lifetime annuities. The cost of the annuities purchased for this group was about $21.5 million. After the annuities, only $2.5 million remained in the pension fund, less than the amount necessary to cover the benefits of the members of the second group who received approximately 15% of the personal value of their earned pension benefits. The third group received "zip."

As a result in 1974, the US Congress passed the Employee Retirement Income
Security Act (ERISA)
to regulate private pension plans, and to establish the  Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation (PBGC), a goverment run insurance program that insures benefits for workers in the case that companies have have gone bankrupt (often having woefully underfunded their pensions).

Yes you heard right, the government steps in to insure workers pensions in the event of a banruptcy.  There's a huge problem in the US auto industry, where it's very common for a company to end up bankrupt with a good 30%+ of it's workforce below 45, the problem is that the maximum payout by the PBGC for a person of this age at the time of plan termination is $1,031 monthly.

Which means that this guy who's spent 20 years on the assembly line making $60,000 a year now has a pension that's only going to guarantee around $12,000 a year. And most often the jobs they will take will make less than $30,000 a year.  And of course these guys planned out the amount of mortgage and other fixed expenses they could afford on their pay at twice that.  Worse the PBGC does not ensure legacy health costs.  Which means that retirees who are ineligible for inclusion in the government medical plan for the elderly (Medicare) or the low income (Medicaid) are forced to seek private coverage.  To give you an idea of how much that can cost.  I am a 26 year old, male, non-smoker in good health.  When I had to carry private insurance, my premium was $176 month.  If I had a wife and kids it would have been close to $500 month.  And each year of age tacks on another $25 or so monthly.

As a result, in the auto industry, the Autoworker's union (UAW) has been working feverishly to conclude Voluntary Employees' Beneficiary Association (VEBA) plans with the big three American automakers. Under these plans, the automakers would be released from the costs of retiree healthcare by creating a healthcare trust plan, that would be run by the union to provide health insurance to retirees.  

I hope they succeed.  My father is one of those retirees, and between that and the possibility that GM may go bankrupt, it makes him much less financially secure than he should be at this age.  Mind you he has enough to live comfortably, but that goes out the window if he has to carry private health insurance. Or more likely it will force him to go to the Veteran's Administration (VA) for health benefits.  Many if not most of the guys in his age group were either draftees or enlisted so they could go to college.  That's right a lot of those factory workers have college degrees like my father.  They are not uneducated.

Bottom line, this is the great insecurity facing US autoworkers, and it's the reason that a single payer health care plan is off the table at the moment. I see the influence of longtime UAW ally David Bonior, now campaign manager for John Edward, in the Edwards plan.

Conceivably, if the Edwards plan passes, then the UAW VEBA could insure their members under a government run option in the regional health markets, meaning that perhaps 1-2 million Americans would be on the plan from day one.  Further, I think that it's possible for the VEBA to use any surplus accrued to pay for other benefits given to members.  This could be life insurance, or supplemtental coverage to pay for long term care in a nursing home, etc.  The idea is that a straight transition to a single payer plan requires retirees to pay again (through taxes) for health benefits they have previously secured though a union contract.

And that's the end of my rambling for today.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 02:08:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The idea that companies should give workers benefits like pension or healthcare is patently absurd. Either it should be financed by the individual in a low tax environment (neolib utopia) or it should be tax-financed. Putting the burden on individual coroporations is just insane.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Thu Jul 19th, 2007 at 11:39:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Absolutely so.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 12:19:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's what makes them such a good propaganda tool: they don't change anything substantial but they make people identify with the capitalists.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 01:08:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Capital income discounts financed by higher capital income taxes is the solution here. But then I am hoping for the ultimate elimination of classes, at least as in labor vs. capital.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Thu Jul 19th, 2007 at 11:39:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Widespread "home ownership" has also long played a similar role in confusing people about their real situation.  Most U.S. "homeowners" are heavily mortgaged but fool themselves into thinking that they actually own something other than the tax bill.  There is nothing quite so pathetic as listening to people talk about their home values and identifying with the 0.1% who own 90% of the real estate value.  These psuedo-owners can be counted on to oppose taxes on land values while accepting taxes more damaging to themselves.  They slit their own throats for a mirage.
by Geonomist on Sat Jul 21st, 2007 at 04:31:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why on Earth would you want to study Quantum Physics or Abstract Mathematics?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 05:20:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's a very strange question for you.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 05:22:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not for me, it's for melo.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 05:41:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
because i can't think of a greater mental challenge, and precisely because it would be so hard, if mastered, would light up whole sections of my brain, perhaps otherwise inaccessible.

same goes for picking up saxophone, tho' that might be easier, since each instrument helps with the next.

since my interest in math ended before i got to calculus and trig, we're taliking tabula pretty darn rasa! lol..

it's just one example of far too many possible others...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 03:31:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
how Spenglerian of you!

"Everything that is possible is essential"  - Oswald Spengler

by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 03:35:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I offer you a deal. You host me for a vacation and I teach you quantum mechanics.

Where in Italy do you live, anyway?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 03:52:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This might be a twofer. Aren't we all due a visit to Tuscany anyway? ;)

Any chance of extending the course to include Quantum Field Theory?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 04:23:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is that an invitation to visit?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 06:11:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
i'd love to host an ET meet here, but i think i'm a good year still from ready.

too many works-in-progress.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Jul 19th, 2007 at 04:52:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm free next summer, as far as I can tell.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 19th, 2007 at 04:55:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
good!

something else to look forward to...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Jul 19th, 2007 at 05:30:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Aah, learned discourse.

I don't suppose you'd settle for "Just outside London"? I know a great kebab place in Windsor, just down hill from the castle. (Of course everything is just down hill from the castle in Windsor.)

by Number 6 on Thu Jul 19th, 2007 at 04:41:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmm, I see a trip to Windsor this weekend...

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 19th, 2007 at 04:46:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It seems you shied away from the more explosive consequence of your line of argument.

This conclusion would be: to really regain the 'center' as a power equilibrum, those on the moderate Left would need to give loudspeakers to real extremists on their side, and stand by them shamelessly, relentlessly.

I happen to think that this is partially right, inasmuch as moderate leftists should at least stop trying to prove themselves innocent before an invisible tribunal of right-wingers by constantly demarcating themselves from (real or claimed) extremists on their side.

On the other hand, I don't think there is a real 'center'. For 'extremism', one can at least establish vague criteria that could apply to both sides -- say implementing policies by force. But there is too much in-between and people's views change. For example, freedom, individual rights, nationalism started out decidedly on the Left (also in your country).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 07:07:58 AM EST
That's because Jerome really doesn't feel like giving you his loudspeaker ;-)

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 07:16:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is the unavoidable conclusion of what I wrote.

And, as far as I can tell, I have hardened my starting point discourse (my diaries/stories) even if I will be willing to go into nuances in the following discussion - that way, the scope of dicussion is wider, and the end point is likely to be close to what I like most.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 07:39:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The nuance is the difference between presentation and policy.

By the time of Thatcher and Reagan the militant Left had managed to make itself look ridiculous, and paradoxically ineffective.

Thatchers eliminated the miners, Reagan the air traffic controllers, and after that union power was on the back foot.

That effectively ended the militant left as a viable force. And with protests like Greenham Common, it became hard for people who identified with the mainstream to feel anything but fear and distrust of militant protest culture.

As I've said before, the answer isn't to control the means of production, but the means of presentation.

In a so-called knowledge economy, branding, repetition and spin are the levers used to create consensus. By repeating messages over and over, they become common knowledge.

Currently the right owns the media that can do this. Deregulation and decentralisation means there are spaces in which the left can stake a claim on sectors of the media space and begin a counterattack.

dKos has done this, ET is doing it, but it's going to take access to mainstream news channels - or their modern equivalent - to really start making changes.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 08:19:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I (should have) acknowledge(d) that: what I meant wasn't about you in general, but this diary itself, where you don't explicitely mention views that would have been labelled extremist even three decades ago.

Blogs have started to fight back against this trend, by arguing relentlessly, shamelessly for points that would have been called moderate left a while back, but were treated as extremist just a few years ago.

This will be done by standing relentlessly, shamelessly by ideas that are today labelled as "leftist" or "extremist", but that will lose these labels only if someone actually fights for them and stands by them

But take this only as a quibble.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 08:36:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This diary is kind of ironic, Jérôme, because I don't really consider you to be on the left in politics.  I don't mean that as an insult or baiting.

 It's just that your positions on several issues, most notably the French voters' rejection of the EU referendum versus your approval of a carte blanche to the EU which was pushed so much by the French right, and your ability to capture the mood at Daily Kos, have always struck me as very rightist.

by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:03:26 AM EST
He's the moderate left, and the rest of us are the radicals...

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:06:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
See Jerome's position in the ET Political Compass.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:08:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hmm...

Maybe this is why I am always recommended by Afew.

Am I really that far to the left of the rest of you?

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 02:16:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
  1.  OMG, you're over there with Redstar.

  2.  Those furthest to the left are in the US and those furthest to the right are French.  Hm...  

  3.  Where are all those people now?


"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 02:39:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
OMG, you're over there with Redstar.

Yep, I would appear to be in the lower-left hand corner.  

I note that that bourgieous pig Redstar is a full two points above me on the social scale.  Because he does not believe we should be able to fornicate with the farm animals.  Rightist scum... </snark>

Those furthest to the left are in the US and those furthest to the right are French.  Hm...

Familiarity breeds contempt.

Where are all those people now?

Guantanamo.  Or  Paris.  Same difference.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 02:52:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, you can fornicate with farm animals if you like, I employ a don't ask don't tell policy in that regard.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 06:25:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why must you assume that my support for man-animal (let's call it manimal love) means that I am a manimalist?  So bourgieous.

You realize I'm joking, right.  Cause I don't know about you.  I generally don't care what's happens in people's bedrooms, but if you've figured a way to use the squeel, you've gone too far....

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 06:31:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What's a squeel?

Must be an Indiana thing.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 06:32:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They saying is that the pig is such a versatile animal that you can use every part but the squeel, which is the high pitched noise a pig makes.  Like how cows go moo, and dogs bark, and cats meow.

And there's a famous movie called Deliverance where some city people decide to go white wate rafting on a river in Georgia and get lost.  So they run across this group of hill people.  And before one of the hill people sodomizes (google it, but you really don't want the pictures) one of the city people, he says "Squeel like a pig."

Famous line where I'm from.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 06:46:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Lots are still here, some are mostly lurkers, some come and go, for some real life has intervened, some have moved on. That's the way of things ...
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 03:08:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is there a list of all usernames sorted my userid online?

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 06:47:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Those furthest to the left are in the US and those furthest to the right are French.

If you take the outlying two in either case. Even then, though in the States, redstar's French. Otherwise it's hard to see a geographical or national element in the distribution.

Where are all those people now?

For those who aren't currently posting here, it's hard to say. Except that they seem to come from all points of the distribution, not just one side. But that's more of a comment for Colman's thread about groupthink.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 03:51:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
only half french. the lefty parent (my dad taught marxist political thought back in the '60's and '70's until it went, inexplicably, out of style in the '80's) is irish, my mom, more conservative by far is french so maybe not the better half, eh?


The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 06:29:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, funny !

I've redone the test. -7.00E -5.44S. I was -3.88E -4.95S

I haven't moved much on the social scale.

But on economy, weeeee! 3.12 to the left in 15 months...

I guess moving back to GWB's America and seeing the beast up-close again do that to you :>

by Francois in Paris on Fri Jul 20th, 2007 at 01:04:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm impressed: I'm off the radar screen entirely!

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 02:54:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On the economic or the social axis?

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 02:54:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Me too! I smell a conspiracy...
by Trond Ove on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 03:08:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's because I haven't updated the chart in a loooong time.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 03:59:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This could be done automagically with the addition of a field on the profile. People who are more active more recently could be added to the graph.

What do you mean you have a day job?

by Number 6 on Thu Jul 19th, 2007 at 05:17:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I have thought about that. I already have an R script that queries the user info and extracts the Country information. Colman willing, the same thing could be made to run in batch mode, maybe weekly, on the ET server.

Placing the labels so they don't overlap is a harder problem than it seems, though.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 19th, 2007 at 05:23:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Whoa...
Economic Left/Right: -8.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.85

I seem to be nearest to DoDo and afew.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 03:26:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Heh.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 03:55:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You can add your own score to the wiki page.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 04:01:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How?
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 04:18:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
By hitting the "edit this page" link. It's a wiki.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 04:24:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh I see what you mean now. Thanks.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 04:30:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You know it probably wouldn't hurt to post a diary with the link to the quiz, and try to update the grid....

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 04:33:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not me it would appear although I don't feel all that far "left" really, hell, look what I do for a living (same thing as Jerome, basically, in media no less).

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 06:21:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Economic Left/Right: -4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.85

You're all a bunch of hippies!

by Number 6 on Thu Jul 19th, 2007 at 05:17:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hehe, who would have thought you'd be in the reactionnary quadrant...

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 19th, 2007 at 05:23:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not all of us.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:09:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, you're also in the anarchocapitalst corner, that's true ;-)

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:10:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Who are you calling a radical...?

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:16:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hear, hear.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Thu Jul 19th, 2007 at 11:39:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I can't believe that Jérôme is even in the same range as anybody else here.

I remember a comment he once made at Daily Kos about someone who was arguing against him, and I thought "Wow.  French priviledged upbringing."  and so many other things he's written since then.  

And the French EU referendum vote.  That was the kicker.  He attributed the rejection solely to the "xenophobia" of the average French voter, like the right wing French MSM did, when there were dozens of reasons to reject it.

You'll have to work hard to convince me otherwise.

by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:17:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You know, I'm reasonably sure that his repeatedly citing the idea that one should assess a society by how it treats its weakest members probably qualifies him.

That he disagrees with you on some stuff does not make him right wing.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:23:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And for the record, I've made many of the same arguments about the constitution as he has. The anarchists around here are inclined to interpret the evidence differently to the more centrist people. (I'd say more balanced people but I'm trying not to be tendentious ...)
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:26:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
first of all, I know a lot of right wing people who are very charitable and kind.  

secondly, although Jérôme strikes me as right wing, it doesn't mean I think he is an asshole.  

thirdly, I haven't really seen Jérôme write that much about protecting the weakest members of society but mostly about energy and economics and to me, he has always struck me as a French nationalist against Anglo-Saxon "liberal" values but firmly in the camp of the capitalists.  

fourthly, the issues that he and I are interested do not overlap that much, so there is little room for disagreement.  

by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:29:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Depends when you got here: there's a fair bit of writing about unemployment/welfare and so on that is focused on the weakest and is taken as read by long-term members.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:35:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it was his attitude about the French referendum that did it for me.  

I  was reading a lot on the issue, being French and all, and I remember how different J.'s reaction was to the French Republicans (not the same as American Republicans) was.  

by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:39:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay, Jerome is a Patriotic French Technocrat and was for the EU Constitution, but we love him all the same.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:43:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
love?  well, I wouldn't go that far.  Let's just say he's a swell guy, and  that I would want to have a beer with him. ;-)  
by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:46:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Then you need to attend an ET meetup ;-)

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:53:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If we're not careful,  J and I would end up in the "Mother of All Arguments".

We would have to talk only about alternative energy only.  

by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:56:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The posts on the 'riots' in France and the posts on inequality are part of that.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:48:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, according to the (over a year old, I think) ET compass I linked to, he's in the rightmost 8% of the site.

If you think Jerome is right wing, you should see Guillaume ;-)

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:28:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I want to stress that I don't mean that in a bad way.  Like I said, there are lots of compassionate people who are more right wing than I am.  

Personally, I think he should stop hanging out with all those Americans ;-)

by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:31:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well social democrats have been accused of being right wingers by hardcore socialists and communists ever since Eduard Bernstein began to criticize parts of Karl Marx's  analysis, in that regard this is not something new.  I think this is more a matter of perspective.  

That said I do think the political system have been moving to the right in many ways much due to the increase in wealth in Europe and the US and the right winger propaganda that when the Soviet Union collapsed so did the left wing political ideas.

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.

by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:36:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
but that political compass is meant for people in the USA, isn't it?
by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:55:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It was designed by British academics. However, it has been observed that the English-language discourse is dominated by themes coming from the US.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:57:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, its a world-centric one that claims to resist the moving of the overton window to the right.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:57:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
link?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:25:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If we all agreed I'd be bored shitless.

I disagree with Jerome on a couple of things, but that's cool.

And let's face it we wouldn't be having this dialogue were it not for him.

So good on yer, Jerome, you elitist French banker, you!

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:29:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
yes of course.  this place wouldn't even exist if it weren't for Jérôme.  
by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:32:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought "Wow.  French priviledged upbringing."

From what I know, that's not the case.

And the French EU referendum vote.  That was the kicker.

The EU vote split the PS neatly in two (while on the Right, the LePenistas also voted Non) so you are narrowing down the Left too much with that. You should also take into account that Jérôme comes from Strasbourg.

He attributed the rejection solely to the "xenophobia" of the average French voter,

Quote? While I disagreed with Jérôme's opinion of Non voters, I don't think it was this simple.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:37:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I remember J's reaction to someone at Daily  Kos:  "I am J. Guillet.  French polytechnician, Ph.D. in Economics, and investment banker.  Who are you?"

I remember looking at my boyfriend at the time, a VP Finance of Bombardier Inc, and asking him to read it.  He burst out laughing and said "that guy thinks the value of a person's argument depends on where they studied!"

And, as for the French referendum, I was very disappointed.

by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:44:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But you think your (ex?)-boyfriend's job position is relevant?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:51:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
just because he had the same type of education as J, but vastly different attitude when it came to "Liberté, égalité, fraternité"  which are the values of a true French Republican.  
by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:54:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Where was that same type of education?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 10:59:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Interesting that people thought my mentioning his job was not à propos, now I have to discuss where he studied.  Come on guys, you can't argue both sides of the issue.

Let's just say they had a very similar education.

by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:00:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's clear to me you meant to say that, all things being equal, your bf should have agreed with Jerome given what you think you know about their common background.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:04:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
 I don't follow your leap of logic.  
by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:09:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You claim it is significant that your bf disagreed with Jerome even though they had a similar background.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:11:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
yes, that is one variable.  there are others which I do not want to divulge because I do not want to give away someone's identity here.  
by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:13:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, here's my "leap of logic". Something is more likely to be significant if it is unexpected. Therefore a reasonable expectation would have been that they would agree, all other things (including background) being equal.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:22:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
but I only mentioned education.  the jobs they have are quite different.  As far as I know, J doesn't have the same responsibilities.

That was your assumption.  

You would have failed the course I had in Plasmas.  The Prof always asked us to state any assumptions before solving any problem.  

by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:28:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
VP finance, project finance banker. Very little difference.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:31:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Pffft.  You know that's not true.  ;-)
by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:38:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Pffft. You're in denial. ;-)

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:40:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh yeah?  Well, your Momma was an investment banker!
by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:41:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Engineer in the wind power plants business, engineer at airplane branch of Bombardier. That was little difference for you.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 01:34:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What?  I said VP finance.  

There are  1,000's of  employees in that division of Bombardier.  I've seen the other side - project financing.  And it's just one part of what VP finance has to deal with.  

by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 02:44:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Another Physicist?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:31:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No.  I just really enjoy arguing with physicists but I am not one in real life.  

I am just a humble engineer.  

by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:37:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not Colman, please don't mix different people's comments. And don't turn Colman's question into a positive.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 11:06:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You'd have to point me to where I wrote that on Dkos, a place where people have no idea what a polytechnicien is and where university diplomas matter much less than in France (especially foreign ones...)

I usually have the factual arguments, so I try to avoid the argument of authority. I do say at times "trust me, I finance pipelines, this one will not be financed", but that's it, I think.

I tell people what education I have when asked; it does come up here on ET when we discuss technocrats and their legitimacy to drive policy (or the lack thereof), but do I actually use it as an argument to make my points?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 12:14:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
maybe in a prior life?

and yes, I do remember that vividly.  

by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 12:30:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If I wrote it, would you mind digging it up? If I said it, what was the context?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 12:44:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It was several years ago.  I don't know if I could find it in the Kos archives.

You were in an argument with someone.  

by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 12:45:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/5/8/15549/08253

There is a "mishimishi" who is very unhappy with me in that thread, is that you?

But while I am accused by others of being an arrogant elitist French, I fail to see the point you're trying to make here about me using my diplomas to slam arguments. I acknowledge my diplomas and position in society (whether real or imagined) because it is put on the table, but I don't seem to use it as a bludgeon, as far as I can see.

But maybe it is yet again my arrogance which prevents me from seeing it now.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 01:02:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ah.  there you go. there's a rationale.  same J, same life.    
by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 02:45:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you got it all wrong.

  • I did not use the "I'm a polytechnicien so shut up" argument, as it was Welshman and mishimishi who brought the topic up ("you're a polytrechnicien so you're biased and therefore wrong");

  • your of-similar-background Bombardier Inc. VP for finance boyfriend (whose qualification and job you brought up yourself, thus apparently again giving the notion that education and job matter to express oneself additional legitimacy) cannot have overheard, as you suggest, my words, since they were in someone else's mouth, so to speak.

Which brings us back, ultimately, to you thinking that "Jerome is an arrogant, rightwing, Frenchman". Which says more about you than about me, I guess.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 03:15:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
EX.  ex-boyfriend.  

and the logic in your second argument is totally off.  I don't think he can only express himself because he has an equivalent education to yours.  I cite this because despite his education, he finds your stance risible and would never stoop to such an argument.    

by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 03:24:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Except he's not having this conversation, you are.  If he has an issue, he can speak for himself.  This "my (ex)boyfriend thinks you are blah blah blah based on something you never really said but a set of facts related to you which may come up now and then" attack masquerading as sincere debate is truly bizarre.  Basically you've implied he's not qualified to be authoring this diary, but in a really innocent way.  I mean, my ex-boyfriend is to the left of Jerome and also thinks it's crass to cite one's elite credentials but happens to be an American.  So, how can we read those tea leaves?  And what does it have to do with anything?  Is Jerome now the gold standard for determining what is left and what is right, based on the grumblings of ex-boyfriends?  

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 03:39:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What did he find risible? Because, clearly, claiming Grandes Écoles credentials wasn't, as that was something Welshman and "mishimishi" brought up, not Jérôme.

Why do you find it so hard to admit a faulty memory?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 05:51:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So, based on the above link, it was Welshman in his diary) and you (who complained about people from Grandes Ecoles telling people what to think, afer Jérômes initial dismissal of Non voters as a bunch of fascists and communists) who made an issue out of Jérôme's education but this turned around in your memory. Are you willing to acknowledge that, so that we can move on?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 02:07:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't even know what you're referring to.  
by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 02:46:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah come on, you many m-s.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 05:51:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm guessing someone (no not someone) was rude enough in a "Who do you think you are to be talking about this" to successfully annoy you into telling them who you were.

That someone (still not someone) who disagreed with you interpreted that in the most negative way possible would be normal psychology.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 12:33:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
nice of you to give J the benefit of the doubt.
by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 12:46:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Since you can't give an actual quote, that seems to be fair, doesn't it?

I haven't read everything Jérôme has ever written, but I must admit I'm surprised by what you say. I haven't read anything of that kind from him anywhere. And on DKos, he's seen as something of a leftie, for reasons this very diary brings up.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 12:50:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've several years experience of debating with him on-line and watching him debate on-line. What you describe is inconsistent with his normal behaviour, so I assume it was in extremis.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 12:55:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
nope.
by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 02:47:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Evidence is in order now. I'd suggest to show some proofs because right now it's all hearsay and personal interpretation - they don't go too well on this forum.
by Nomad (Bjinse) on Thu Jul 19th, 2007 at 06:34:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd understand the reaction, if I had actually said or written that.

I never bring that up unless specifically asked, or in ways that are usually (to some extent) critical of the French technocratic species, which I otherwise generally praise, but as a group.

What journalists write about me, I can't fathom and do not control. That Le Monde chose to make its title about me on this is their problem, not mine.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 12:48:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I remember J's reaction to someone at Daily  Kos:  "I am J. Guillet.  French polytechnician, Ph.D. in Economics, and investment banker.  Who are you?"

Nope.  Didn't happen.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 19th, 2007 at 01:54:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is something that has been discussed many times here, and on which I am in an apparent minority, at least amongst those that still care enough to write back (Migeru, DoDo, redstar).

I wrote that the "non" vote was as much a vote of the sovereignist right (25% out of 55%) as of the anti left (30% of the 55%), and I wrote that the vote of the sovereign right was at least logical, because the vote of the left was justified by positions on Europe that had little to do with the Constitution and, to simplify (but only a little), what the left did not like would remain even in the case of a "non", and they chose to ignore the real improvements that the "oui" would have brought.

So the 'non' vote of the left was, as far as I'm concerned, totally counter-productive.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 12:19:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
not wanting to make this a debate about the referendum itself, there was a very good argument to be made about the lack of limits on the new powers to be granted the EU if such a referendum were to be passed.

a very good argument.  and that depended only on one's pessimism, which is the major French export IMHO.

by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 12:33:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree that in a resonable world, Jeromes position would be to the right of the midline.

So we just got to push the window until that becomes true.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 12:55:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Please, lefties of the world, fight back the nasty righties that have turned me into (gasp) a lefty! Please help me become someone normal and honorable again!

;-)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 01:05:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd rather we didn't offset the current imbalance in debate by veering off in the opposite direction. It's no more helpful.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 01:10:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Let's see what's rightist:

your approval of a carte blanche to the EU which was pushed so much by the French right

The EU Constitution was not a carte blanche to the EU pushed by the right, it was precisely the best way to put checks against that, notably by giving more power to the EP and  bringing in the Charter of Human rights, and by giving political legitimacy to the EU.

And it was not pushed only by the right. It was supported in France by the socialists (after a fully democratic and transparent internal referendum) and the Greens (ditto). That Laurent Fabius chose to ignore his party to mount a quixotic attempt at making himself relevant does not change that. Most European socialist parties, and most european unions, supported the Treaty.

your ability to capture the mood at Daily Kos

Given how I'm seen as one of the loud voices of the uncompromising left on dKos, that comment leaves me non plussed.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 01:45:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I remember the Republicans in France being completeyl puzzled by the Socialists' acceptance of the EU Constitution.  Please refer to any copy of Marianne of that period for their reasons.

As for limits, there simply were none on the executive branch.  

Daily Kos is an American site, and being on the left there means being on the right in most European countries (Anglo-Saxon ones excluded)

by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 02:50:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the same Marianne that called to vote for Bayrou, the center-right and most pro-EU candidate of the lot?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 03:07:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am not anti-EU.  I just don't think they came up with a very good constitution.  

Yeah, I llllove that magazine.  Except their ME coverage.  

by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 03:09:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The way the EU political elite tries to avoid pubc debate and tries to come up with ways to approve their treaties without referendum indicates they themselves don't believe their treaties are that good either.

The lack of information and debate on the constitution in Spain was shameful. Which goes a long way towards explaining the very low participation in the referendum.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 03:42:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
we are absolutely in agreement here.

oh my God, what's going to happen now?

I would have liked to have seen a Constitution that spelled out the powers of the Executive much like in the American Constitution which would avoid abuses of power (maybe).

by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 03:45:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It seems to be more a case of pressing for something that is almost but not quite federalisation by the back door, because no one would buy it if it was offered in a straightforward way.

The fact of the existence of the agreement seems to be more important than the content.

Although I can understand the rationale, this is still a a bizarre way for a nominal megademocracy to behave.

It's causing problems already, and I think it's going to cause even bigger problems later.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 04:31:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah but I still like the magazine.

That sure as hell disappointed me from J.-F. Kahn though I think I get why he did it (even if I disagree).

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 06:04:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What do people find in any French "news magazine" ? Apart as providing employment to some journalists, I don't think I found that often relevant scoop or information ; a lot of their analysis are often simplistic ; too much filler stuff on "Combien les Francs-Maçons payent ils les cadres pour connaître les meilleurs hopitaux de France" ; etc...

I can't bring myself to read them...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 07:10:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
FWIW, Jerome agrees with you that DKos is to the right, much to the shock of Kossacks. So, just because he's to the right of you doesn't mean he's not to the left of DKos, which just says how to the right DKos is.

BTW, who are these French Republicans you talk about? How do they relate to the French political parties?

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 03:25:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
those French Republicans are similar to the Americans who believe in the values of the American Constitution.  They can be rightist or leftists, but believe that French government model should be the values of the French Revolution and the Declaration of the Rights of Man, and the spread of these values around the world.  
by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 03:30:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you know "Liberté.  Egalité.  Fraternité."

There's just not too much Egalité and Fraternité in someone telling me:  "I'm a Polytechnicien.  Who are you?"

by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 03:39:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
that I have NEVER said that. YOU brought up the fact that I am a polytechnicien as somehow relevant. I have acknoweldged that it can be relevant in some ways on some of the topics we discuss, but that not quite the same as saying  "I'm a Polytechnicien.  Who are you?"

Please stop repeating this, or bring up a quote. Seriously.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 04:46:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've been here since the begining, I signed up on the first day, and have know Jerome from Daily Kos before that.

Jerome has never behaved in that manner, and believe me I would remember.  If he had behaved as you imply, I would not be amused.

Alas, he has never.

In the begining their was a French poster who made a point of berating him about having gone to an ecole (I remember some french slang about those upstairs?)He defended himself, but he never implied that he was somehow more qualified to speak because of his education.

Let it go.

You are becoming more grating than Welshman.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 04:57:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
During my year in the in the USA, there were places I could expect to be asked what religion I was - the appropriate answer being a flavour of Christianity. "Atheist" just wouldn't cut it.

If Jerome said he was a US senator, would that strike you as elitist and showing off? How about rock star? Next in line for Pope? Plumber? Homemaker? Carpenter? How about "Carpenter, just like Jesus Christ"?

"I'm a Ph.D." can be a completely objective statement. It  can be a way of establishing a hierarchy.

In this example it seems to have been the way someone was used to introducing himself in his native milieu.

by Number 6 on Thu Jul 19th, 2007 at 05:25:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Refer to The difference between being arrogant and matter-of-fact? by Jerome a Paris on August 26th, 2006

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 19th, 2007 at 05:36:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The term républicain is very broadly used in French politics (as you say, right or left). You tend to suggest there's a group of people who go by that name and who were all in agreement with you and for the "non" in the referendum. And that those who voted "oui" were not républicains.

I doubt if you'd find anyone in France who'd subscribe to that view - with the exception of those who consider that the racist extreme right are excluded from the number of those who can be called républicains. As you know, the racist extreme right voted "non".

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 04:48:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Doesn't she refer to Chevènement's bunch?

At any rate, first Marianne, then this, I am beginning to doubt that mmmm is truly hard-left...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 06:01:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
D'oh, as Jérôme already said downthread...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 06:02:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
nope, no Chevènement, although he did get the PS off the ground.
by zoe on Fri Jul 20th, 2007 at 05:57:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The far left "républicains" are usually found in the Parti des Travailleurs, founded by Lambert...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sat Jul 21st, 2007 at 04:52:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
regrouped all those that fought against the royalists/catholics in the 19th century. It meant most of the left, plus a chunk of the center right, fighting against the reactionary, royalist right.

These days, "républicain" is usually assigned to the Chevènement left, i.e. the sovereignist left, keen to re-establish the pre-eminence of the State (then against the Church, nowadays against corporations or other entities with no loyalty to the State like international organsations) and or its secular, neutral values, providing education and opportunity for all, irrespective of social origin. Chevénement was one of the main campaigners against the Maastricht treaty. He was also one of the biggest fans of Saddam Hussein (as the leader of a secular, socialist Iraq State).

His position on Europe was intellectually coherent, and one of the most legitimate critiques of the EU (and I say that while ferociously disagreeing with it on the EU); on the other hand, it was not very coherent with Chevénement's political past in the 70s.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 04:52:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Somehow I associate the importance of identifying as republican with the 3rd Republic. I though that by now pretty much everyone accepts republican values.

Can the last politician to go out the revolving door please turn the lights off?
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 06:02:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why are you discussing Jerome and not his ideas?

Leave the ad hominem discussions to the gossip newspapers.

He has a good point which he has said several time: most "liberals" in the US are as unwilling to sacrifice as anyone else.

It is especially galling (compared to the rest of the world) since the sacrifices we would be called on to make would still leave most people head and shoulders above 90% of the world's population.

What's wrong with driving a smaller car or paying the true cost of fuel? What's wrong with overruling NIMBYism when that's all it is.

For example here's my local example (Long Island NY).
The newly completed Shoreham nuclear plant was closed and decommissioned because of local opposition. This cost the taxpayers about $3 billion. NIMBYism is even keeping the non-nuclear infrastructure from being reused for a gas-fired generator.

Since then two undersea power cables have been opposed. They are now in service and provide lower cost power to the island as well as helping with peak load conditions.

A modern gas fired plant is being opposed in an industrial park even though it would eliminate the need to use older less efficient and more polluting existing oil-fired plants.

A wind farm off shore in the Atlantic is being opposed because it will spoil the "view".

A LNG unloading station is being opposed in Long Island Sound even though it will be nine miles from the nearest shore and the offloaded gas will go into underground pipelines.

Now ask all these people to turn off their air conditioners in August since they won't allow for any increase in available power.

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 01:17:59 PM EST
I am discussing J's ideas.  I already said he was a swell guy.  

Saying someone is right wing is not an insult.  

by zoe on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 02:51:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
was about making "right wing" symmetrical to "leftist", so you may have misread the mood of the readers there...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2007 at 03:08:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ideology is dead!
Both the left and the right in their respective thoughts, platforms and roads to "paradise" are equally destructive and even at time diabolically Satanic.  They have both become industries of propaganda vying for an audience but behind it all corporate fascism advances and gains.
Global government, a global TAX on carbon emissions, a global war on terror to advance the profit margins of high tech weaponry.

Lawyers and marketing experts have blurred the language into such oblivion, can the Biblical Tower of Babel be far behind?

by Lasthorseman on Thu Jul 19th, 2007 at 07:16:32 AM EST
Hmm, interesting. Are you channelling Nietzsche?
by Number 6 on Thu Jul 19th, 2007 at 12:18:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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