Another thing that feels unfair is that more senior members have acted out before and have not been confronted, so when a new member is, it doesn´t seem like equal treatment.  I don´t defend mmmm´s reactions, especially to those that made a good effort, but I am really very saddened that neither side was ´fair´ and everyone involved got unnecessarily hurt.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

I have to assume that some of you have not read all the past comments, or you would let it be.  I´m not enjoying this, but I think it brings up issues for everyone that we need to consider, if we want to avoid it in the future.

It´s hard to say more without ´comparing people´ and I don´t want to go there because I may express something the wrong way and cause more misunderstandings.

I really like this cyberfamily! because we are good, not perfect.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

m-whatever she calls herself  )-:

Below you speak of not recognizing past incidents. You surely saw this diary last July, where mmmm accused Jérôme of very specific arrogant behaviour on DKos, failed to produce any evidence but would not back down, and, when Jérôme pointed to a DKos diary on the French EU referendum where one mishimishi accused him of being an elitist arrogant snob, sidestepped to avoid confirming she was mishimishi. I don't wish it on you to take a look through mishimishi's comments on DKos (from a couple of years back), but you'd find she was a tall blonde engineer, Canadian and French.

What you surely can't have noticed, joining ET when you did, is that we are lucky enough to have had two tall blonde Canadian / French engineers here. The other one oddly enough began with an m- too. Here is her Goodbye assholes scene. Please note how she divides people into two camps, the demons and the angels.

So m-whatever could refer to mmmm, or mishimishi, mishi, or other m-combinations. I didn't say it, or explain this, to drag up dirt. Just to say, as Migeru pointed out above, that it looks like a story of an (unexplained) grudge coming over from DKos - not so much a "new" member. And that it gets frustrating, over time, to see the trollish behaviour and how people get manipulated - and how it divides the community. So I get judgemental. I should go off on a Zen retreat for a while.

Hope I haven't spoiled your after-lunch digestion! ;)

If you cannot solve this problem, there is trouble ahead. If you cannot find the means to resolve differences with members of the audience who come in half-sympathetic, then how the F are you going to persuade people who are unsympathetic? It has Jacobin overtones which I don't like.

I'll give you my personal historical view, and it is very personalized because I don't read everything here at ET. There were two crucial events. Both of them concern subjects which are apparently not open to discussion here in any way, shape or form. Both involved mmmm and also myself. My interpretation of such events, I stress, is subjective.

Number one was a quickly curtailed discussion about the attack on the Pentagon on 9/11. Mmmm, as an engineer with apparently some considerable experience as an obseerver of airplane crashes (I have no way of knowing if this was true - but the anecdotal evdence suggested it was), was tallking about the fact that the impact area of the Pentagon - before the collapse of the facade sometime later, and fully documented in photographs and in expert testimony. It was an anomaly and IMO still worthy of discussion from an expert point of view. But mmmm was ridiculed ( so was I, but I am used to it). That was Number One.

Number two was the curtailed astrology discussion in which Mmmm took an active part. I have made my views clear on this - it was not an area in which I had much interest, but I, and I think several others, were interested to hear about it from mythological viewpoint. But no. that was also dismissed as ridiculous and unworthy of discussion. Even though it was a conditioned response.

The diary by RG on the Tarot 2 days later, and the wealth of contributions was an act of defiance (IMHO). The <snarky> remarks were more of the same. ET as Samizdat. It doesn't matter whether the remarks from 'above' were intentionally hurtful or not. It is all about (as usual) perceptions.

In my analysis, these were the two events that turned mmmm defensive. After that it was all just 'heat of the debate' stuff. and everyone is 'wrong' But those two were the real hurts for Mmmm. IMHO

If you can't read or listen to alternative arguments with a sense of fairness, then I think you are committing the sin that you are fighting against. It doen't matter whether what you say is intended to be hurtful or not. It is only how it is perceived that is important.

And unless you understand those perceptions, (not only in a  sympathetic audience, but also in an unsympathetic one), then all your fact-finding will change the world much less than you wish.

I haven't even started about community and what that means. This is enough for now, for the sky to fall.

It has never been enough to be right - you also have to be seen to be right. it is an area that is underdiscussed here, because it seems so easy- so obvious. It is not easy. Persuading people is perilous! What if you are not right?

You can't be me, I'm taken

Its one thing to have a difference of an opinion and express strong feelings about a topic. That happens...we have all done that at one time or another.

But to me, it is destructive of the atmosphere here for a person to come to ET with an agenda to disrupt, suck for negative attention, to attack others personally (especially when one tries to set limits on weird behavior), and who generally has an anti-authoritarain agenda. That is trollish behavior.

And further, while definitely people have the right to their opinions and such, I feel strongly that it is destructive to the friendly, supportive, and inquiring atmosphere we have tried to build here are at ET for people to support a person who continully throws tantrums, sucks for negative attention, and then gets nasty when confronted about it. What's the point?

Obviously there are a lot of strong personalities here, and it is what makes this an intersting place to be. But, while I have no personal grudge or problem with mmmm, it really pisses me off that this crap keeps happening with her...and she pulls for it...so why do some people keep supporting this? Sometimes I wonder if person like m is just provide a sock puppet for people to act out their own anti-authoritarian or hostility stuff. And maybe I'm off...but again, what's the point? Please, lets keep it positive..its much more interesting.

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia

May try to smoke that thing after all...

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.