Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.

Tuesday Open Thread

by Jerome a Paris Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 12:43:54 PM EST

What's up?


Display:
Someone will be talking about financing offshore wind farms in Berlin at the biggest European conference on the topic.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 12:44:48 PM EST
I took this photo for you, Jerome!  Not quite large scale but together with a number of solar panels, this provides 95% of the electricity on Flat Holm island, which I visited on saturday.



by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 01:17:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Very cool.  Congrats to someone.  ;)

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 01:31:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A closer link.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 01:59:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, I didn't think someone was a wind energy finance expert ;-))

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:38:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
She's scrambling about now, tearing out her hair, trying to remember agreeing to speak at this conference. lol.  ...assuming someone is a she.

I guess, in a way, we are all "someone."  Everyone is...  

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:43:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Someone was definitely a she when we met her in Paris. Mind you, as I've demonstrated myself, stuff like that doesn't have to remain fixed.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:49:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Neither does the hair colour!
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:00:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you implying that her husband might be in for quite a surprise when he returns from America?

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:18:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Congratulations, Jerome!  

Are you taking CH along?  If you need a member who doesn´t speak German, just let me know. (:

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:01:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah. Crazy Horse. I don't know. I expect there's a good chance he'll be around.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:19:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We had fun when we visited in 2004.  I'm not sure if I could live there (way too big for me) but it's definitely a fascinating place to visit.

You've been there before, right?

by Plutonium Page (page dot vlinders at gmail dot com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:22:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, the only time I've ever been to Berlin was around Christmas 1990, i.e. just after the reunification. Very weird place.

East Berlin was very much looking more like Moscow than like West Germany, but it was the only place in Germany with ATMs that took foreign cards... Very decrepit, but much nicer looking than the West.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:25:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
East Berlin was/is nicer looking because it was less heavily bombed by allied forces.
by Loefing on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 06:07:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was in Berlin and Dresden in the summer of 1998. The whole centre of Berlin was a construction site (and I had recently watched the movie Das Leben is eine Baustelle, too) and I could see the Reichstag undergoing refurbishment. Dresden and Leipzig were also enjoying a lot of money for reconstruction at the time. I would expect most of East Germany to look very nice 10 years later.

Oye, vatos, dees English sink todos mi ships, chinga sus madres, so escuche: el fleet es ahora refloated, OK? — The War Nerd
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 06:12:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes. East Berlin is not to say East Germany.

East Berlin may have been spared, relatively speaking. But of of the territory that became East Germany, most of its major cities were destroyed.

I'm grateful to see that progress is being made in reconstruction.

This is essential to an eventual European union.

by Loefing on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 06:57:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, city centers don't make a country... but yes, much of the Aufbau Ost money went into reconstruction.

I saw Dresden and that center of Berlin (the surroundings of Potsdamer Platz) finished last year. But also plattenbau, abandoned industrial installations, and deserted villages.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 12:18:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Parts, surely. But in West Berlin more was rebuilt and less torn down to make room for concrete monsters.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 10:31:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Interesting indeed. But also expensive, unfortunately.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 10:36:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Fast Food is Bad For You!
by Nomad on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 12:49:03 PM EST
Fast food is bad for you

I dunno, I'm sure I've eaten in worse. the Plaza in Manchester features high on that list (ah happy daze)

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:42:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The most successful recent film in Hungary was about the loser owner & loser friends of such a decrepit fast food stand trailer named "Glass Tiger". I have seen half a dozen real-life imitations since...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:50:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:57:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
State Sen. Ernie Chambers Sues God

The lawsuit admits God goes by all sorts of alias, names, titles and designations and it also recognizes the fact that the defendant is omnipresent.

In the lawsuit, Chambers said he's tried to contact God numerous times.

"Plaintiff, despite reasonable efforts to effectuate personal service upon defendant 'Come out, come out, wherever you are,' has been unable to do so,'" Chambers said.

The suit also requests that the court, given the peculiar circumstances of this case, waive personal service. It said that being omniscient, the plaintiff assumes God will have actual knowledge of the action.

The lawsuit accuses God "of making and continuing to make terroristic threats of grave harm to innumerable persons, including constituents of Plaintiff who Plaintiff has the duty to represent." It says God has caused "fearsome floods, egregious earthquakes, horrendous hurricanes, terrifying tornadoes, pestilential plagues, ferocious famines, devastating droughts, genocidal wars, birth defects and the like."

The suit also says God has caused "calamitous catastrophes resulting in the wide-spread death, destruction and terrorization of millions upon millions of the Earth's inhabitants including innocent babes, infants, children, the aged and infirm without mercy or distinction."

Funny, haha, yes.  Unfortunately the motivation behind the suit is absolutely offensive...

Report on Hindu god Ram withdrawn

The Indian government has withdrawn a controversial report submitted in court earlier this week which questioned the existence of the Hindu god Ram.

The report was withdrawn after huge protests by opposition parties.

The report was presented to the Supreme Court on Wednesday in connection with a case against a proposed shipping canal project between India and Sri Lanka.

Hindu hardliners say the project will destroy what they say is a bridge built by Ram and his army of monkeys.

Scientists and archaeologists say the Ram Setu (Lord Ram's bridge) - or Adam's Bridge as it is sometimes called - is a natural formation of sand and stones.

God debate aside, I'm not sure having monkeys build bridges is a really great idea, quality control-wise...  

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 01:45:49 PM EST
http://www.geetabhawan.co.uk/printversion.php?page=adamsbridge

well better built by monkeys than destroyed by humans.


by PeWi on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:06:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
AdamsBridge
by PeWi on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:11:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok, that's really quite lovely.  Maybe we should let the monkeys build our bridges...

Question: do we allow them to unionize?  


"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:55:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I can't believe you'd even ask such a question.  Of course we need Monkey Unions. It should be a fundamental right.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:57:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Will management employ gorilla muscle to keep the working monkey down?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:59:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Monkeys show affinity for tough union tactics; Study finds they'll go on strike if treated unfairly

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:01:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The findings, published in today's issue of the journal Nature, shed light on the evolutionary advantages of cooperation among animals in the wild, said Brosnan, because they suggest that such behavior can make a group of monkeys more closely knit and better able to avoid predators.

Exact, thr purpose of unions is to avoid predators...

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 07:00:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I haven't posted anything on Hungary for a long time. That's not because nothing happens, but because what happens is even more depressing that what goes on in Western Europe.

Item #1: local far-right youth party JOBBIK organised a paramilitary: the "Hungarian Guard". They managed to get an official permit, and have a legal constituting assembly on a public square, at which 55 guys appeared in black uniform with a fascist flag sewn into it. The parliamentary parties and the figurehead President reacted with theatrical and hypocritical political bickering. I got a distinct Weimar feeling.

Item #2: a year or two ago, János Zuschlag, then a young member of the governing Socialists, was taped to joke about the Holocaust to a friend -- at a Holocaust memorial service. He was then fired from the party, and one would have assumed that's the end of his political career. Instead, he is now back and has a leadership position in Budapest -- and is at the center of a corruption scandal: a clique of young Socialists awarded money to non-profit foundations in whose oversight boards they happen to sit, and a significant part of the handed-out money is unaccounted for. So far no consequence to anyone.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:10:04 PM EST
and you are having floods, don't you (sis in law and mom in law are currently in budapest - they mentioned something
by PeWi on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:12:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but now receding, I mentioned it the other day. It wasn't a truly big one, though: 168 centimetres below the record flood in spring 2006.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:23:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I dunno about joking about the Holocasut at a memorial service but doling out money to yourself and your mates from various front-organisations is pretty much standard operating procedure for party apparatchniks the whole world over. I bet every country can list a few of those.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:46:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
However, when it comes out, someone usually resigns. Here our hero left a meeting with a party boss, and declared to the assembled media: "There is no Zuschlag affair!"...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:54:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Between unpopular neoliberal reforms and protecting all of their scandal heroes, one wonders why the Socialists wonder that they are down in the polls.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:56:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
where's LEP?  Len are you here?
by zoe on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:21:43 PM EST
Um, shout a bit louder, he's probably engrossed with picking his photos for tomorrow's photography blog.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:29:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
and where have you been?  Have you moved/how´s that going?

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:03:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was thinking she had been quiet only earlier this afternoon, and wondering if sh'd been driven off.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:07:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
of course I have.  Jerome might have some success but I wonder how many people he's hurt to get to where he is.  
by zoe on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:11:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What have I done this time?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:18:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you have amnesia, I think.  
by zoe on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:24:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I just have no idea what you're talking about. I'm sure I've hurt lots of people, and I'm perfectly willing to believe I hurt you - my social skills are terrible and my cluelessness is legendary. And I won't even notice what I've done until I'm told.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:29:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know how to take that comment, Jerome, but it is not a conciliating one, comes across cold and as if you didn't care that mmmm leaves.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 09:11:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Metavision...from my perspective, mmmm continuous holding of grudges and whining about being a "victim" are incredibly negative attention seeking. She takes up a huge amount of energy (and space) around here. And I don't know why you keep supporting her behavior...do you like it? I'm getting very impatient with this kind of stuff...can't we get back to what's important, rather than argue and throw tantrums <jeezus..>.

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 03:00:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree with you, but I still think that we need to look in the mirror when this stuff happens.   We know that when there is a conflict, there is more than one villain, so why do we get so hooked by it, instead of letting it pass?  

Another thing that feels unfair is that more senior members have acted out before and have not been confronted, so when a new member is, it doesn´t seem like equal treatment.  I don´t defend mmmm´s reactions, especially to those that made a good effort, but I am really very saddened that neither side was ´fair´ and everyone involved got unnecessarily hurt.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 09:50:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
She is anything but new to ET...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 12:35:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
She's #2024.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 01:39:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And #889

Oye, vatos, dees English sink todos mi ships, chinga sus madres, so escuche: el fleet es ahora refloated, OK? — The War Nerd
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 02:35:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And dKos user #9711.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 05:40:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
waBob, I really don't want to support her personal attacks, nor anybody else´s, but I am really disappointed at the one-sided, selective memory here.  I know, if I were in her shoes, I may react just as badly and still feel hurt.  Different humans, different times.

I have to assume that some of you have not read all the past comments, or you would let it be.  I´m not enjoying this, but I think it brings up issues for everyone that we need to consider, if we want to avoid it in the future.

It´s hard to say more without ´comparing people´ and I don´t want to go there because I may express something the wrong way and cause more misunderstandings.

I really like this cyberfamily! because we are good, not perfect.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 02:23:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
some of you have not read all the past comments,

All of them, and more, and further back, than you think.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 03:07:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
  1.  mmmm 1) was practicaly stalking Jerome (apparently carried some grudge from daily kos over here - then began attacking him for where he went to school or something unrelated to anything), 2) responded to anything less than sheer flattery (and sometimes even that) with unnecessarily mean personal attacks and 3) there is some evidence that she had previously posted under other names, and had been very trollish then.  You could not be expected to know that last bit, but the first 2 things were kinda hard to miss.  And all 3 things are irresponsible.

  2.  That said, I don't think it excuses how anyone treated her either.

  3.  And the astrology thing was taken way too far.

  4.  But back to you, you can be accepting of mmmm as a person or whatever and still not applaud her for her personal attacks.  Even if personal attacks are true, they are still disruptive and they violate blog etiquette (how is implying someone got their job through less than acceptable means not akin to say, outing?)  

  5.  And you may feel like this is a family; I am sure some do, but it is first and foremost a public forum for discussion of and commentary on policy, etc.  As such, there should be some standard of decorum here.  If that takes a back seat to "just wanting everyone to get along and accept each other so we agree to accept everyone's bad behavior" then our values and ability to critique have taken a hit.  Why don't we practice what we preach.  We preach kindness, but also accountability.  There's nothing wrong with holding someone accountable for making a personal attack.  Anyway...it's not a family in that we do not have to accept each other.  Trust me, as someone permanently on the receiving end of rejection here, no one is ever asked to show forgiveness here.  We have to be civil with each other.  Yes.  And fair.  Yes.  (see 2 & 3)   But mmmm was neither and did not even make a misunderstood effort to be so.  It's not the job of ET to create a family.  All we can do is try to act like adults.  Which means, in part, avoiding personal attacks and ratings abuse.


"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 03:12:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If I remember correctly when you first joined ET you brought over a grudge from DKos.

Oye, vatos, dees English sink todos mi ships, chinga sus madres, so escuche: el fleet es ahora refloated, OK? — The War Nerd
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:41:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it's  fallout from Ted and MMMM's argument from a couple of weeks ago where he was saying that you didn't apreciate some of her comments.  I nearly emailed you to see if he was acting as your asassin, but decided that was a touch paranoid and mad.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:25:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Frankly, a lot more than a touch ;)
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:49:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah so I'm not getting better then ;-)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:53:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
yes you are.  you take care of those cats, you hear?

ciao!

by zoe on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:42:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you told me I wasn't welcome here and that I was making a fool of myself because I was posting something about astrology.  what kind of person are you?
by zoe on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:28:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

what kind of person are you?

A person that does not like to read about the astrological signs of other people.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:30:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
égoïste!
by zoe on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:43:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You say that? with half an open thread just about you?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:53:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't understand this drama at all (from anyone involved). However, you have to refer to us all as fascists before your true exit. Going out on a stick of dynamite is the only way to go.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 05:23:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You make Hitler look like Mother Theresa!

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (m<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 05:30:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Lest anyone thought I was attacking MillMan, that was my poor attempt at a joke...

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (m<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 05:32:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hitler liked to make jokes too...
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 05:36:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But clearly his wit was no match for the mighty Brits, who defeated him with the following (warning: hilarity at fatal dosage, proceed with caution!):

Wenn ist das Nunstück git und Slotermeyer? Ja! Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde

by NordicStorm (m<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 05:45:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have a linguistic gas mask on that filters out the worst of the poison. (Meaning, to be honest, mein Deutsch ist kaput, not that it was ever very lively anyway ;))
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 05:52:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I survived by only translating the first word.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 05:53:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You sure you're okay? You should seek medical attention immediately; this is no joking matter!

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (m<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 05:57:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you only get hospitalised if you translate two words ;-)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 05:58:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]


"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 06:58:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Admit it mmmm, you have a longstanding grudge with J, and really...with anyone who will disagree with you at all. Sorry if that sounds blunt, but to me it is not only boring, it is quite tiresome. When you talk about stuff you know it is interesting...but this continual whining about being a "victim" is beyond boring...its really quite irritating...like throwing tantrums in a store.

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 02:54:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
not yet but soon.  I wanted to post a photo for him as a good-bye present, but don't know any sites that I could use to host them.  

Besides, I did not feel very welcome here anymore thanks to Jerome.  

by zoe on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:09:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What's going on, why are you leaving/moving, and why did you change your e-mail?  

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:10:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
what do you care?  you've been consistently rude to me.  
by zoe on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:12:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That was uncalled for, if I may say so.

Oye, vatos, dees English sink todos mi ships, chinga sus madres, so escuche: el fleet es ahora refloated, OK? — The War Nerd
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:14:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
actually, Migeru, it wasn't.  
by zoe on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:24:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It was in the context of this thread.

Oye, vatos, dees English sink todos mi ships, chinga sus madres, so escuche: el fleet es ahora refloated, OK? — The War Nerd
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:25:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have?  Well...  In that case, foget I asked.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:18:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
really?  is that what you call being nice?  no wonder you feel out of place.  most Americans I know are nice people.  

one last post and I am out of here.  

by zoe on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:26:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I hope that means you will stop this barrage of unfounded accusations and self-sabotage.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:29:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Link please?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:19:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
OK, mmmm, so you're going to make a scene and play the deeply offended party as usual.

So add me to the list of offenders?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:24:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
afew, you p.o. too.
by zoe on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:25:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
metavision, it's been a real pleasure to interact with you.  I will send you some photos of myself to know just how tall I really am, ;-) and also to send to LEP if and when you get his e-mail address.  Or you could post them here, if you are so inclined.

You really are a wonderful person.  I am glad I met you.  Ciao guapita!

by zoe on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:15:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I refuse my permission for you to leave ET!  (:

I can understand the hurt feelings because there were very hard comments, but please, please, find a way to remain here and hopefully resolve the conflict, or at least ignore the bad moments, because we all have a lot to gain.

Remember, this is not perfect, but it is not a cult to Jerome, either, and he wouldn´t want it to be.

Stick around.  We all get better!  Especially the women (:

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:36:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Meta, this is a real drag for me to have to say, but your 4 to mmmm telling me to p.o. is in my humble opinion inappropriate.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 05:12:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But it pales to insignificance beside this 4 given to mmmm for an utterly insulting and unfounded remark to Jérôme. Do you understand what she's saying there? Do you support it?

I'm calling you, meta. I want to know why you 4'd that comment.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 05:31:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
  1.  The 4 on mmmm's comment to you was because she had not addressed you and it was already an unfair many-against-one, even at the time of your comment.  Sorry I´m biased.

  2.  The reason for my 4 on the (insulting but well-founded) comment to Jerome should be questioned by Jerome.

  3.  Because they are MY 4s.  (:

Scoop needs a ´Rewind and Rephrase´ feature, quick! because we could have used it tonight.

You know, mmmm may have an irreplaceable role here if she can push so many buttons and get so many comments to defend so few.  I wish I could have reacted sooner because it was painful and some of us can handle more than others.

I really feel she got more attention than fair treatment for a new member and only a couple spoke up when an out of control member was endlessly insulting and humiliating towards her.  

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 08:56:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
she had not addressed you

So the rule is you only comment here in answer to someone who addresses you? Speak when you're spoken to?

I'm a member here like her and you, and, you know what?  They're MY comments. :-)

If I want to say that m-whatever she calls herself regularly uses the posture of the offended party, the victim, the better to launch unfair personal attacks and, simply, cause trouble, then I will say it.

mmmm may have an irreplaceable role here if she can push so many buttons

It's easy to push buttons the mmmm way. You think that's useful?

(insulting but well-founded) comment to Jerome

So you are in fact supporting mmmm's accusation that Jérôme is an ambitious person who hurts other people as a means of getting "where he is".

That at least was worth making clear.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 01:43:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Afew, I like you regardless, but your comment was judgmental and added a dare to the fire.  We had been there before and we got the same avalanche as before, accumulating more hurt feelings and this time we may be losing a member, that otherwise had a lot of potential.

m-whatever she calls herself  )-:

I'm not mmmm's pro-bono attorney, but we are not perfect here and personally I can´t hold everyone to the same standards, in the same areas, at the same moment.  It doesn´t feel right to me because we are all at very different stages, so I have my bias.

Pushing buttons is not useful, but it helps us if we question why we allow them to get pushed.  I know, I know.  I´m looking in the mirror.

I hereby "Rewind&Rephrase" point #2:

The reason for my 4 on the (insulting, but  understandable-in-hurt-feelings, given past incidents) comment to Jerome, will follow to him below.

Uuuuffff, I need at least a vermouth, now.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 09:51:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I like you too, meta (lol! you're an m--- too, is it a plot?). True, my comment was judgemental. True, it's useful to look at why our buttons get pushed.

m-whatever she calls herself  )-:

Below you speak of not recognizing past incidents. You surely saw this diary last July, where mmmm accused Jérôme of very specific arrogant behaviour on DKos, failed to produce any evidence but would not back down, and, when Jérôme pointed to a DKos diary on the French EU referendum where one mishimishi accused him of being an elitist arrogant snob, sidestepped to avoid confirming she was mishimishi. I don't wish it on you to take a look through mishimishi's comments on DKos (from a couple of years back), but you'd find she was a tall blonde engineer, Canadian and French.

What you surely can't have noticed, joining ET when you did, is that we are lucky enough to have had two tall blonde Canadian / French engineers here. The other one oddly enough began with an m- too. Here is her Goodbye assholes scene. Please note how she divides people into two camps, the demons and the angels.

So m-whatever could refer to mmmm, or mishimishi, mishi, or other m-combinations. I didn't say it, or explain this, to drag up dirt. Just to say, as Migeru pointed out above, that it looks like a story of an (unexplained) grudge coming over from DKos - not so much a "new" member. And that it gets frustrating, over time, to see the trollish behaviour and how people get manipulated - and how it divides the community. So I get judgemental. I should go off on a Zen retreat for a while.

Hope I haven't spoiled your after-lunch digestion! ;)

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 10:54:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I should go off on a Zen retreat for a while

How about spending a week at La Gendronière together?

Oye, vatos, dees English sink todos mi ships, chinga sus madres, so escuche: el fleet es ahora refloated, OK? — The War Nerd

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 11:31:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nice idea, but I haven't got as much as a day free, let alone a week.

I might have a certain amount of approach work to do before a week like that, too ;)

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 11:49:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is a point here. An important one. It is about the aims of the site, combined, as MV said, with people being at different stages of development.

If you cannot solve this problem, there is trouble ahead. If you cannot find the means to resolve differences with members of the audience who come in half-sympathetic, then how the F are you going to persuade people who are unsympathetic? It has Jacobin overtones which I don't like.

I'll give you my personal historical view, and it is very personalized because I don't read everything here at ET. There were two crucial events. Both of them concern subjects which are apparently not open to discussion here in any way, shape or form. Both involved mmmm and also myself. My interpretation of such events, I stress, is subjective.

Number one was a quickly curtailed discussion about the attack on the Pentagon on 9/11. Mmmm, as an engineer with apparently some considerable experience as an obseerver of airplane crashes (I have no way of knowing if this was true - but the anecdotal evdence suggested it was), was tallking about the fact that the impact area of the Pentagon - before the collapse of the facade sometime later, and fully documented in photographs and in expert testimony. It was an anomaly and IMO still worthy of discussion from an expert point of view. But mmmm was ridiculed ( so was I, but I am used to it). That was Number One.

Number two was the curtailed astrology discussion in which Mmmm took an active part. I have made my views clear on this - it was not an area in which I had much interest, but I, and I think several others, were interested to hear about it from mythological viewpoint. But no. that was also dismissed as ridiculous and unworthy of discussion. Even though it was a conditioned response.

The diary by RG on the Tarot 2 days later, and the wealth of contributions was an act of defiance (IMHO). The <snarky> remarks were more of the same. ET as Samizdat. It doesn't matter whether the remarks from 'above' were intentionally hurtful or not. It is all about (as usual) perceptions.

In my analysis, these were the two events that turned mmmm defensive. After that it was all just 'heat of the debate' stuff. and everyone is 'wrong' But those two were the real hurts for Mmmm. IMHO

If you can't read or listen to alternative arguments with a sense of fairness, then I think you are committing the sin that you are fighting against. It doen't matter whether what you say is intended to be hurtful or not. It is only how it is perceived that is important.

And unless you understand those perceptions, (not only in a  sympathetic audience, but also in an unsympathetic one), then all your fact-finding will change the world much less than you wish.

I haven't even started about community and what that means. This is enough for now, for the sky to fall.

It has never been enough to be right - you also have to be seen to be right. it is an area that is underdiscussed here, because it seems so easy- so obvious. It is not easy. Persuading people is perilous! What if you are not right?

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 04:14:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is enough for now, for the sky to fall.

You wish, me duck?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 04:36:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are knee-jerking again. I am not wishing, I am expecting. There's a difference.

I would much rather my voice was heard in some small way, and I were able to discuss my life-long professsional experience and that it had had some value here. It is in a different area from you guys. I do not agree on the tactics, but I agree on the destination. If you cannot agree to work together, so be it.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 04:49:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Knee-jerking "again" is of course a manner of ad hominem. I could say you're bloviating "again", for instance.

But I was not knee-jerking, I was joking. As perceptions rule, according to you, I see my little wisecrack failed miserably. And now you've called it knee-jerking, so it will be perceived.

Tough cheese for me.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 01:34:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Over a year ago, Manon could have made a valuable contribution to ET. Yesterday, mmmm was gratuitously disruptive and I don't expect her to turn around and contribute content any more.

M is very good at holding grudges and has a selective memory. When m is putting on one of her theatrical exits she is quick to move people from the "angels" to the "demons" column based on what comments people give a '4' to. To underscore her inconsistency, look at what she said of Jerome in this discussion which took place after the infamous Astrology thread

Re: Open Thread - Friday (none / 1)
I don't think Jerome will be very happy to be associated with you, Ted.

Jerome is firstly a very intelligent man, who feels he has a responsibility to his family and to others to improve the world in the only way he knows how.

He is a loving father and husband, a good friend, and a sociable person.

He sometimes get irritable, but is not a nasty person.

In all of these ways, he differs from you.  It's really too bad that even living in Nice hasn't been able to soften your misanthropism.  I feel sorry for anyone who comes into contact with you, including yourself.    
by mmmm (missyET at gmail.com) on Sat Sep 1st, 2007 at 02:15:56 PM BST

If I may say so, IMHO people should generally be more tolerant of what goes on in open threads. I'm reminded of the time I had to snap
Sorry, dude, this is an open thread and I'm enjoying the opportunity to pick the brain of a fellow geek in her area of expertise.
If people don't like a topic they don't have to read the diary or comment thread, especially in an open thread.

Oye, vatos, dees English sink todos mi ships, chinga sus madres, so escuche: el fleet es ahora refloated, OK? — The War Nerd
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 04:58:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The 9/11 thread saw no arguments from mmmm beyond 'I'm an engineer, so I know' and saw detailed, circumstanciated answers from DoDo and stormy and others that directly contradicted the claims by mmmm, which changed as time went by. That was actually a wonderful example of ET in action, providing reasoned facts to answer preposterous claims.

The astrology thing came from a comment by me that everybody but mmmm (and you, probably for different reasons) chose to take at full face value and make a huge scandal about. It led to everybody jokingly talking about astrology for 3 days with no retorsion or any other consequence, but has been taken ever since by you and mmmm as a great example of oppression of the masses by the ET elites .

It's a bit silly, really. I know that you're just playing around, but you should be mindful of mmmm, who seemingly takes all of this seriously.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 05:01:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And seemingly I am obviously overusing adverbs. Silly me.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 05:18:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You can say 'Oh Sven Please!' but you still don't get it. Until you do, you will be firing on 3 cylinders. 'Preposterous' is a mind set. 'Set' being the operative word.

Mmm said 'I'm an engineer'. You believed DoDo WAS an engineer. Do you not understand how that comes out? MMm had been an aeronautics engineer, but DoDo was another type of enginer. And these equate? Do you have no respect for alternative positions? Or is it just 'intuition'? My 'intuition' says different.

I am NOT playing around. Your lack of success in translating your obvious intellect and compassion into action is FOR A REASON. When you understand that we can move forward.

Call me silly, but ET is not a Holy Site. It is just one of the efforts on the way to real change. It will be superceded - it is a stepping stone to real change. That is how it works. That is how it has always worked. You deserve it, but don't expect to be lionized. It is too mythological.


You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 05:33:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
DoDo never claimed to be an engineer. And manon refused to provide expert arguments when pressed on the grounds that we wouldn't be able to understand them. Which really pissed me off, BTW, given that I was taking a sympathetic position to her.

Oye, vatos, dees English sink todos mi ships, chinga sus madres, so escuche: el fleet es ahora refloated, OK? — The War Nerd
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 05:35:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
All I claimed was that I would be able to follow her arguments as a trained physicist (and practising engineer).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 05:46:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sven, you completely misremember what happened.

It was mmmm who brought up expertise, her own. I tried to get her to make expert arguments, and whether you elieve me or not, out of genuine interest for expert arguments. But those didn't came, we wouldn't understand it came instead, so I argued that I could follow her expert arguments with the basic technical knowledge of a trained physicist. No one equated expertises, and no one tried to compete in expertise with her, though I do remember her making such a misinterpretation.

If you want to continue this, we'll have to dig up that thread and make quotes verbatim.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 05:55:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I misremember from YOUR point of view. But not from my own interpretation of motive.

I do not want to argue several cogent alternative engineering views of what happened at the Pentagon, 9/11. We are not allowed; as I understand the situation.

I maybe made my case too vociferously, such that it appeared conspiratorial. My point was that, talking about 911, there appear to  be a number of engineerng anomalies that have yet to be officially explained. These anomalies have been proposed  by professonal pilots of long experience,  as well as believable senior military representatives. There is no doubt in my mind that an alternative exists, and that a failure to understand that view renders arguments one sided.

While I accept that the notion of a 911 (neocon) conspiracy is probably bizarre, I nevertheless think that, as good detectives, we follow the evidence where it leads..

But if you have already made up your minds, then you are not a client that I'd like to work wiih

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 06:33:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

We are not allowed; as I understand the situation.

And that 9/11 thread you refer to demonstrates why: the people that bring up the 9/11 conspiracy theories, and those that are willing to believe them will never be convinced by any argument, however well based on facts, evidence and physics. Thus it is an absolute waste of time to make the arguments. Like I said, DoDo, stormy and others provided massive amounts of evidence to debunk the various points raised by mmmm (with new ones coming up each time).

But you seem to think that no argument has been provided, and you use the thread as an example to whine about how the poor hoi polloi are oppressed, censored and not taken seriously on ET. Well, you're 100% wrong on this.

If that thread did not change your mind on 9/11, nothing will, and that's a real case of "if you have already made up your minds,..."


These anomalies have been proposed  by professonal pilots of long experience,  as well as believable senior military representatives.

Just FYI - this is again the argument by authority, not by facts.


 There is no doubt in my mind that an alternative exists, and that a failure to understand that view renders arguments one sided.

"no doubt in my mind" - that supposedly open mind of yours?
"an alternative exists" - all the version that have been proposed are, each time, a lot more absurd and bizarre than the version they purport to debunk.


you are not a client that I'd like to work wiih

Is that meant as an insult?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 01:42:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
   We are not allowed; as I understand the situation.

And that 9/11 thread you refer to demonstrates why

You just exposed yourself to more allegations of suppressing multiple views...

To make the argument to Sven a bit differently and hopefully in a way perceived less confrontatively: Had it been not allowed, I and later stormy wouldn't have made detailed counter-arguments. But in fact it seems that for you, it is the real or claimed expertise of the claim-maker that counts, and you are less inclined to consider the arguments itself, as I have done. It is true that you as a non-technical person, you are justified to bow out of judging the technical validity of the arguments itself. However,

  • one can still take a closer look at how the claim is truly related to the claimed expertise,
  • one can check whether and what other experts responded to the claim,
  • one can check whether there is evidence ignored by the expert opinion (be them witness testimonies, photos or materials testing), because experts aren't infallible and omniscient either,
  • one can check whether the evidence the critical experts based their anomaly claim on is what they claim it to be (because even experts can mis-read and mis-interpret transscripts or even photos).
I was doing nothing more and nothing less. And every time the 9/11 anomalies come up, it feels like I'm called on doing someone else's homework. I note that I started into this as a 'believer', with special interest in the hijackers' identity, fighter scrambling timeline, and Bush regime pre-knowledge issues, but I found my answers. Yet when I browse the ever growing 9/11 anomaly sites, I see ever more of these claims, with the old ill-considered ones still in place. So it gets annoying and tiresome and time-consuming, and one is not exactly happy when yet again there is outlook for doing someone else's homework on a 9/11 anomaly claim. I guess that's exactly what others have felt who yawned.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 07:25:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
you are not a client that I'd like to work wiih

A lot of people here have experience, professional or other expertise. You bring yours up often in support of your ideas as a kind of higher claim to consideration.

But, if you're now posing as a consultant to ET... Remember that no one called you to ask for a quote.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 01:51:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sven, there were detailed arguments on several specific claims of anomalies, with photo evidence and photo counter-evidence. Don't speak of pilots as experts on engineering, at least construction engineering, and this claim was certainly not part of the debate back then. Don't speak of made-up minds. Also the focus on conspiracy is yours. Your interpretation of motive is based on mis-remembering or not truly following the actual debate.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 06:24:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And we could debate on about the above, but all of this has little to do with the truth of your memory about me equating my expertise with that of m's specialist expertise.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 06:27:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Your lack of success in translating your obvious intellect and compassion into action is FOR A REASON. When you understand that we can move forward.

I am walking thin ground here, but that's something I could even agree could on some way be validly argued. However, you chose a completely wrong example for that.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 06:01:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What example?

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 06:35:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 07:29:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have great respect and sympathy for figures like Crook. However, if you're thinking of an applying this man's example to your idea of an online community, please read the final sentence of his obituary:

John Crook was elected a fellow of the British Academy in 1970, but resigned in 1980 over the academy's failure to expel the art historian and traitor, Anthony Blunt.

Emphasis mine.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 03:47:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have some deadlines looming today - I'll ty to get back to this later today or tomorrow.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 10:48:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What example? The alleged persecution of the m person, of course.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 06:31:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Mmm said 'I'm an engineer'. You believed DoDo WAS an engineer. Do you not understand how that comes out? MMm had been an aeronautics engineer, but DoDo was another type of enginer. And these equate? Do you have no respect for alternative positions? Or is it just 'intuition'? My 'intuition' says different.

mmmm wrote "I'm an engineer, you should listen to me claims". Dodo provided arguments, links, photographs - and took a lot of time to debunk mmmm's obviously absurd claims. She was taken seriously, a lot more thna she deserved, in fact. If you cannot tell the difference, there's very little I can do for you.


Your lack of success in translating your obvious intellect and compassion into action is FOR A REASON.

If this is lack of success, I'm very much looking forward to success, you know.


Call me silly, but ET is not a Holy Site.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Which you'll say is precisely my problem, allowing you to feel smug and superior. Go ahead.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 01:31:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hm... even though I too am annoyed by Sven's insistence to keep to false perceptions and not recognising when his own character criticism applies to himself, maybe we shouldn't get this openly upset as frontpagers.

I will note that I won't characterise the claims of m and other 9/11 anomalists' on ET (which also included in one way or another Sven, Migeru, UpstateNY, Fran, and many others) as "obviously absurd". At least not all of them. Maybe not properly checked against all the available evidence is the word. (E.g. I didn't pull out the counter-argument photos out of thin air or produced them with my endless IQ, just went searching and found them.) Though less so in manon's case, where I was hoping for specifics to her claims that didn't came.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 06:47:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
was tallking about the fact that the impact area of the Pentagon - before the collapse of the facade sometime later, and fully documented in photographs and in expert testimony. It was an anomaly and IMO still worthy of discussion from an expert point of view. But mmmm was ridiculed ( so was I, but I am used to it).

Nope. She protested of being ridiculed, playing the victimisation card, while she was only called to make expert arguments if she brought her expertise up. The Pentagon derbis matter was discussed, with photo evidence against conspiracy claims, which she then dismissed out of hand. (If that's not clear, this debate involved me, so I am talking as the accused.)

In my analysis, these were the two events that turned mmmm defensive.

It is true that there were a few months mmmm appeared to seriously try to fit in, and even I thought that some of the first rows could have been better managed, but your analysis is too simple a reading.

You forget that m had a gripe with Jérôme from before ET was created, from dKos and the EU referendum debate. That and other grudges (for example with poemless from the manon times) she seems to hold on to, though her memorry of events is seriously warped (see the episode when she 'remembered' Jerome a Paris using argument from the authority of an elite school alumni turned financier, which turned out to have been stuff written by Welshman). Call it what you want, but this is not something that can be catered to.

It doen't matter whether what you say is intended to be hurtful or not. It is only how it is perceived that is important.

Let me turn that on you. In one of the rows mmmm instigated, you said: "Girls, girls, simmer down."

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 05:29:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is a more humane and acceptable argument. But....

Nope. She protested of being ridiculed, playing the victimisation card, while she was only called to make expert arguments if she brought her expertise up. The Pentagon derbis matter was discussed, with photo evidence against conspiracy claims, which she then dismissed out of hand. (If that's not clear, this debate involved me, so I am talking as the accused.)

Was this arcane? No - I sometimes wonder if ET is autistic, ie unable to empathise. But I admit - I was unaware of the Dkos background. And the Welshman has always given me the heebie-jeebies. Quaker though he is...

I usually ask of clients: do you want to maintan or increase market share? Do do you believe that market share is your right? The latter are the most diffiicult clients to deal with.

Preaching to the converted is easy. But if you really want change, you need to persuade the unconverted. And that means understanding where the unconverted come from. A little Devil's Advocate can work wonders ;-)


You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 06:01:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was unaware of the Dkos background

It was pointed out in a thread I mentioned above, where m-- claimed to "recall", verbatim, extremely arrogant and quite uncharacteristic words from Jérôme on DKos. You might have missed it - though I had just explained it to metavision, who also seemed to have missed it. You did, however, take your cue from my comment, since you took it as understood that manon and mmmm were one person (which you may have privately concluded before - but which had never been openly stated).

So why did you ignore the DKos background in your rewrite of "how manon and mmmm were hurt"? It's simply self-serving to take two episodes - 9/11 and astrology - and conclude that once again the "leadership" has been feelingless and oppressive and hasn't got a clue. I am quite certain you have not read, thread by thread and comment by comment, m-'s progress through ET as front-pagers have. If you want a breakdown, it would be tedious, but it's possible. Including an explanation of how m- seizes on any opposition to make out she's the injured party (eg that her expertise as an engineer was scorned out of misogyny, which was not true - but helps create those perceptions you make so much of).

It should be clear by now that m- has a history that features a certain fixation on Jérôme (and may be extended to any "authority" figure associated with him). How can one say anything about this? Are we to go into psychology? How can we do that with an online multiple-avatar persona who offers a copious amounts of her life-story, but of whose real life we know nothing? Or should we take a narrow view and say: this user is sock-puppeting, this is bad faith towards the community, let's read the riot act?

We (the front-pagers) did neither. We didn't denounce mmmm and let her be in hopes things would work out better this time round. We are now accused of lacking empathy, humanity, understanding, an open mind, but that's plain nonsense. ET is a vibrant and warm community to be part of, and I think the constant carping, largely deaconed by you, Sven, is unjustified. Whatever her personal reasons, mmmm was steering a course towards a door-slam like manon's, and as far as I can make out, mishimishi's on DKos. Those who believed they were empathising with her might at least admit that things might be more complicated and shadowy than they thought.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 03:25:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You did, however, take your cue from my comment, since you took it as understood that manon and mmmm were one person

I think many of us independently figured that. I figured it out before her first conflict as mmmm, at a time she seemed to try to fit back in and even avoided the prior hot-button issues for its sake.

I was hoping it would work out, even after the row in the course of which Sven didn't realise how "Girls, girls, simmer down" can be perceived as offensive, a hope I began to lose after that thread you linked.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 06:12:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My point, obviously, was that the mmmm-manon link had not been mentioned openly here before my comment above. That comment was posted several hours before Sven's. I don't believe Sven equated mmmm with manon openly without having read my comment. So I think his version of "how ET hurt m-", ignoring the DKos side to the story, is disingenuous.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 07:18:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And just to be clear about the idea a whole heap of people were piling on to mmmm, (which is credible once one looks at the mess the thread became), this is how it began:

mmmm posted comment n° 11 asking after LEP.

She received a friendly response, n° 14, from In Wales, followed by a friendly response from you, n° 33, from metavision.

ceebs added another friendly-to-mmmm comment, n° 34.

So far, it's 3-to-1 "piling on" in being friendly to mmmm.

Her response was, first, to answer metavision (in comment n° 35), containing:

I didn't feel welcome thanks to Jerome

second, to answer ceebs, in comment n° 38, where she says:

Jerome might have some success but I wonder how many people he's hurt to get to where he is.

which goes further than saying Jérôme made her feel unwelcome, it develops a whole (slanderous, imo) narrative about Jérôme.

No one was attacking mmmm, but she attacked first, and most unpleasantly. But, by always posing as a victim, she gets away, not only with causing a shitstorm, but with getting people to actually support her.

Manipulation is the name of this game.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 04:26:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

the (insulting but well-founded) comment to Jerome

The comment is:


Jerome might have some success but I wonder how many people he's hurt to get to where he is.  

What does that mean, exactly? Where am I? On ET? Speaking about offshore wind farms? And who did I hurt to get there ? Hurting people's feelings because I don't like discussion of astrological signs or unfounded conspiracy theories is one thing, but how exactly did that get me anywhere ?

Or are you somehow saying that I hurt people elsewhere to get to that "there" you're thinking about?

I would appreciate your making explicit what you seem to imply.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 05:44:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
First, I apologize for phrasing #2 very poorly:  I felt torn between empathizing with mmmm for accumulated hurt feelings and your claiming no knowledge of past incidents.  

Otherwise, mmmm´s words are not mine.  I discriminate between personal and professional roles, so there is no connection there, but I´m glad you recognize hurting feelings and I hope you tell mmmm.

Reviewing her comment, I see a hurt reaction and it is not expressed appropriately, so I will remove that 4 now.

Out to lunch.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 09:51:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

[...]
Now, with a smart-ass little pirouette and some pretty insulting quibbling on words (when and where did "authors say" that free lending was a "crime"?), you show your true colours.
[...]
I'm sure they'd be better off if they worked in a bank.
by Laurent GUERBY on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 05:53:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That was in the heat of a discussion in which authors (and at a humble level I am one) were dragged in the mud (and I'll go back and show that if need be). Yes, I was annoyed.

Now tell me what this has to do with supporting an unfounded slur on Jérôme with a four.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 06:00:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That was in the heat of a discussion

You´ll have to remind me of that one when I need it.  (:

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 09:01:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Come on, metavision, it happens. And it has nothing to do with the systematic tantrums and personal attacks practised by mmmm.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 03:23:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I guess I am just feeling cranky about this part of the thread.

Its one thing to have a difference of an opinion and express strong feelings about a topic. That happens...we have all done that at one time or another.

But to me, it is destructive of the atmosphere here for a person to come to ET with an agenda to disrupt, suck for negative attention, to attack others personally (especially when one tries to set limits on weird behavior), and who generally has an anti-authoritarain agenda. That is trollish behavior.

And further, while definitely people have the right to their opinions and such, I feel strongly that it is destructive to the friendly, supportive, and inquiring atmosphere we have tried to build here are at ET for people to support a person who continully throws tantrums, sucks for negative attention, and then gets nasty when confronted about it. What's the point?

Obviously there are a lot of strong personalities here, and it is what makes this an intersting place to be. But, while I have no personal grudge or problem with mmmm, it really pisses me off that this crap keeps happening with her...and she pulls for it...so why do some people keep supporting this? Sometimes I wonder if person like m is just provide a sock puppet for people to act out their own anti-authoritarian or hostility stuff. And maybe I'm off...but again, what's the point? Please, lets keep it positive..its much more interesting.

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia

by whataboutbob on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 04:03:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And further, while definitely people have the right to their opinions and such, I feel strongly that it is destructive to the friendly, supportive, and inquiring atmosphere we have tried to build here are at ET for people to support a person who continully throws tantrums, sucks for negative attention, and then gets nasty when confronted about it. What's the point?

My guess, (and it is just a guess) is that the point is to be friendly, supportive and inquiring. We all have different perceptions of situations and persons. We also have individual limits on what behaviour falls under plainly disruptive.

Now I missed the astrology diary (not a great interest of mine), and don't care to inform me of what went down there, so these are just some general observations.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 07:28:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Metavision, you are an angel come to earth to make this place more pleasant for everyone.

It was an honour to "meet" you my dear.

Vaya con Dios.  

My last post was for you.

xoxoxoxoxo

by zoe on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:30:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm no angel, you will find out, but I wish you stuck around to learn more from eachother!

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:49:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey mmmm.

Solveig and I are sorry to see you go, too.

Be good!

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 06:19:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This all seems like one of those awful annual family get-togethers at Xmas.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:24:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Only no one is related (well, mostly) and no one has been drinking since noon.  What's our excuse?

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:27:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's the oldest excuse in the world: 'Diff'rent strokes fer diff'rent folks'. None of us see personal reality in the same way as others see it. If they did, I would see it as a sign of a constipated society.

The thing we all still have to work out is: what is collective experience? Can it be shared in any useful way.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:34:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A very thoughtful response to my sarcastic remark, Sven.  Thanks.

I am beginning to wish I'd begun drinking at noon, however.  (Put an order in for one more liver.)  Or just stayed in bed all day waiting for Santa...  Would have had more luck with that, probably...  This non-alcoholic, non-gift exchanging, non-eating too much chocolate type of bickering is a real downer.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:54:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Aah, a "4" is all I have to give for Xmas. You can't drink it, but it could possibly be smoked...

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (m<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:57:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
See, this is just how my day is unfurling...  I've had a head cold or allergies all week and can't smoke a thing!  Humph.  

BTW, bumping your own diary?  You're such a badass FPer!!!

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 05:01:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Gah, last bit's in the wrong place.  Must learn to copy and paste properly.

You'd be a badass FPer too, I'm sure. ;)

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 05:04:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
See now, this would never have happened if you'd been able to smoke the four!

But I agree, with a minor modification; I would probably be both bad and an ass as a FPer ;)

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde

by NordicStorm (m<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 05:13:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
lol.  (tho I beg to differ...)

May try to smoke that thing after all...

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 05:16:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But at least then there would be xmas presents and booze (not necessarily mutually exclusive)...

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (m<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:27:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And not necessarily antidotal either ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:36:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, if you're passed out, you can't participate in the argument ;-)

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (m<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:38:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bye Sven, I'll miss you too.  
by zoe on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:41:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Take care...

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 01:58:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm recovering from my first yoga class of the new school year tonight. It was cruel.
Long time no see mmmm.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:29:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was teaching the first yoga classes of this cycle. Guess it was a good idea to not go full power, some of the students got lazy over the summer. :-)
by Fran (fran at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:34:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hi Fran. I didn't do anything over the summer. Tonight I paid the price.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:45:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
LEP, that info is for you only,  it's not visible to me.  
by zoe on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:46:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
hey LEP.  I want to sell you a photo of a hug from me, because you may never get to meet me.  But I don't have an e-mail address for you, and I don't know where to host a pic.  

And then I'm gone with the wind.

by zoe on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:41:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well isn't this strange. I posted the above response to mmmm's post about 30 posts up and I then see there has been a whole theatrical piece in between. Well mmmm, I'm sorry I missed the chance to say hello (unless you reconsider). I do go to the mailbox listed in my personal information, about once a week so if you want to send something there please do. I'll be sorry if you don't come back; you always brought a lot of life to ET.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:41:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
there is no mailbox listed.  
by zoe on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:44:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here it is after "LEP."

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:49:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

by Laurent GUERBY on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:38:05 PM EST
Is this years worth of work that your friend has? I don't see how anyone can possibly manage to be in so many beautiful places in such a short space of time.  So many shots like this either require getting very lucky or being extremely patient and waiting for the conditions to be right for that perfect shot.  It's all very impressive.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:53:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My favourite photographer has exactly 9 monthes of practice (and 8800+ pics you do the math :), and it's become a hobby that goes well with just walking around in a countryside you know well.

For the inspiration, a bit after the photographer got an internet connection (well before having a digital camera) I displayed some Christopher Burkett works(1) and digital image chasing on the internet started, with some particular interest on infoclimat(2). Using the digital camera to produce some pictures was next. Next step is obvious but a bit delayed (my fault).

(1) http://www.christopherburkett.com/
(2) http://www.infoclimat.fr/

Any advice you have on camera/lens equipment and pic taking is welcomed (I'm translating to french when needed :).

by Laurent GUERBY on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:27:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
9 months? that's impressive.  Even surrounded by beautiful countryside to make photo opportunities easier, there is still a lot of talent in composing the shots well and capturing the scene.  Doesn't look as though much advice is needed but I'm always happy to talk photography at anyone!
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:48:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What's your feedback on your digital camera and lenses ?
by Laurent GUERBY on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:56:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I have the Nikon D200 which I really love. It is a bridge between entry level and pro spec digital SLR cameras.  It has plenty of capacity for me to develop my skills at a price I could just about afford.

I wholeheartedly recommend the 50mm prime lens for most things, especially low light. Wide angle for landscapes and some urban photography (I have 12-24mm).  

My beautiful 105mm vibration reduction macro was another very good buy and I use it for a lot of things, mostly macro closeups, abstract and portrait and also in place of a zoom lens for distance shots but it is far less flexible in that context.

I acquired a second hand sigma zoom lens 70-300mm which surprisingly I make little use of, mostly because I need a tripod or support to prevent camera shake.  I am more likely to use the standard kit lens - 18-70mm.
I also have a fisheye and a lensbaby which are novelties that I should have retained more self control over.

I desperately want a tilt and shift lens for architectural/urban photography and some lens extenders to do ultra close up macro work. those will be on my wish list for some time I suspect.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:35:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd also recommend something like a 28mm lens if you're shooting with a APS size sensor camera (which includes almost all consumer-level digital cameras). The sensor crop factor of 1.6 will make the 28mm effectively a 45mm, which will be useful for street stuff and indoor photography. The crop factor will make the 50mm actually a small tele, so you might not find it that handy at least indoors.

You have a normal feeling for a moment, then it passes. --More--
by tzt (tzt) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 08:46:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey, Laurent, the Tarn was badly hit by storms last night, but I expect you, uh, heard about it?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:09:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Albi was but not much in Castres, I'll get more news later :).
by Laurent GUERBY on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:16:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Feds have cut the interest rate 1/2 percent, and this is meant to save people from forclosure.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/09/18/news/economy/fed_rates/index.htm?cnn=yes

I don't think people are going into forclosure because their ARM shot up a half percent...

I obviously don't really understand these things....

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 02:53:25 PM EST
Well, a half percent per year on $120,000 is $50 per month. That can be the straw that broke the camel's back.

Oye, vatos, dees English sink todos mi ships, chinga sus madres, so escuche: el fleet es ahora refloated, OK? — The War Nerd
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:17:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
euro at $1.3970
oil at $81.90
dow up 2.5%

one thing is clear: the dollar is going down...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:23:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How many times do I have to ask that the $ exchange rate not be posted?

That´s bad for my health, so I keep my head in the sand. (:

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:24:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
emailed you

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:50:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Gorgeous weather outside today. Tomorrow, I'll take photos and post them, possibly in a frivolous, content-free diary (except for the neato Amsterdam photos, that is).

It had better not rain, dammit.

The indoor forecast includes more procrastination.

by Plutonium Page (page dot vlinders at gmail dot com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:11:42 PM EST
Tomorrow there is a regularly scheduled ET photoblogging open thread.

Oye, vatos, dees English sink todos mi ships, chinga sus madres, so escuche: el fleet es ahora refloated, OK? — The War Nerd
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:15:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When do you guys put up the thread?

And congrats on the new front pager post!

by Plutonium Page (page dot vlinders at gmail dot com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:18:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
LEP is in charge of tomorrow's photoblog. I think it goes up during the morning if possible.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:23:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The afternoon has the best light for photos here.  I love the special light you get in the fall around 3 pm or so, this time of year.
by Plutonium Page (page dot vlinders at gmail dot com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:29:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The thread won't be going anywhere!  Lots more will be added later in the day so feel free to post yours up when you are ready. I know what you mean about the light as the day draws to a close. I hope you have good weather tomorrow.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:43:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
By all means do a diary but tomorrow will also be Photography Blog day and we'd love to see your contribution to that as well!
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:16:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/9/17/21135/7701

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 03:50:59 PM EST
Okay, why is this Lomborg character hot shit all of a sudden? Seems like I can't go anywhere without seeing his name lately.
A Danish statistician?!? Writing a book on global warming? Huh? Wah? Eh? Uuhh....


"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (m<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 04:06:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Apparently the smiley turns 25 today (or tomorrow, for you in inferior timezones): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emoticon#Creation_of_:-.29_and_:-.28

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (m<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 05:25:08 PM EST

http://www.moonofalabama.org/2007/09/john-kerry-is-a.html#comments

What gets me is the crowd doing nothing (or did they cheer at the beginning/) and wondering what I'd've done--maybe it's that the crowd wasn't united, or that the fear of being arrested--HST said he'd been arrested once and never wanted to be arrested again.

But...it's out on the web, one two three different videos  and rememberinggiap over at Moon of Alabama...

...the sound of the taser...group solidarity--if they're gonna arrest ya, make sure you have support.

I'd appreciate comments from the ET crowd who lived through something...not similar...but the heightened tensions...I mean the sixties.  I mean...I get my news from the web and this whole "We're going to war with Iran" nonsense...is taken seriously it seems by mainstream news organisations, or at least given a voice with the neutrality of the reporters...ach...

when a culture descends into what it can live with - that is, that it is not happening to them directly - then it has descended to barbarism

malooga often points out to the 'lord of the flies' character of the empire - & in incidents such as this we are watching it - in situ

how many 'incidents' in iraq - & i would say the overwhelming number of 'incidents' where people are murdered - in their cars, at barriers etc etc are as much an expression of the cultural aberration that lies at the heart of the empire as much as it is an expression of overwhelming force

even the notion of overwhelming force has at is heart - stupidy, short term thinking, it is the expression of bullies

that is why it was charming & i use the word advisedly when hugo chavez 'played' the bully against the real bullies in his united nations speech. there was great seriousness but there was always an extremely human reproach against the empire that had very liitle to do with ideology but had a great deal to do with humanity

& there seems to precious little of that inside the belly of the beast - tho we know that the great majority of americans are oppossed to this illegal & immoral war, the great majority understand the brutal lies that hold up this shiftless administration but they do nothing, as this audience does nothing

not one hand held out - just the baton & the taser

rememberinggiap (link above)



Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 06:06:32 PM EST
Off topic: I don't think I'll be staying with you tomorrow, but we could get together Thursday afternoon if you're free, as the conference wraps up by 1pm.

Oye, vatos, dees English sink todos mi ships, chinga sus madres, so escuche: el fleet es ahora refloated, OK? — The War Nerd
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 06:09:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And in a comment from Tantalus (again, from the link above)

They're used to this in Florida. Apparently they have used stun guns on a child as young as six. There is no possible excuse for this. There is no possible way that a society that condones this can call itself civilized.

Apparently tasers can break your back. There's been a lot of talk about breaking the back of resistance lately, and that, it appears, is what they are doing to our children: manufacturing a spineless society. I am shaking with anger.

So there's also a class element.  The poor, the marginalised know about this, they live this, but now it's touching the middle classes.  Ask too many questions, get too loud, once the police man (or woman) decides enough's enough...ach

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 06:10:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
manufacturing a spineless society

The best way to ensure that you reproduce is to follow the crowd and play by the rules. As such very, very few individuals throughout history have encouraged individualistic behavior, particularly for women (as risk taking by men can sometimes lead to big rewards). What % of people participated in the movements of the 60's? I think the number is smaller than most people imagine.

As the Vietnam draft showed, or the civil rights movement for that matter showed, people will not riot and risk arrest until the potential benefits outweigh the real costs.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 07:31:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
and the cops are now in trouble:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/18/student.tasered/index.html

This is a good example of the technologies that enable the surveillance state working in the opposite direction. I could see a lawsuit without the combo of a video camera and youtube, but this damning, direct evidence instantly forced the hand of the police to put these guys on leave, and the odds of this guy winning a lawsuit based on excessive force are pretty good.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 07:35:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What does it matter? why should you put your trust into a judicial system when about to face extreme violence? (let us be clear, tazer are a step below guns) Your reasonning doesn't make sense. You don't win lawsuits for excessive violence against a system whose sole response is arrest, exclusion and tazing. Excessive violence implies a response that is above standards, above average. Yet, as you can see on the video, that was their only response, and it's likely that in all debates this is their only response.
This can't posibly be Kerry's first public debate: was he surprises to see cops intervene? is this by chance that the microphone is placed a step away from two police officers?

so? lawsuits? no, emigration.

Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine

by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 07:58:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Trust isn't involved here. The protester knew the risks to his person and came out ahead. This is a big black eye for the cops. A small piece of passive resistance that worked. Emigration? That is the coward's way out.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 08:43:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You write that the kid knew what kind of risk he was facing. This is extremely disturbing: you are telling me that tazing is a reasonable expectation. That tazing is a normal response to exceeding your time limit in a debate.

About emigration, a word that's often used in this sort of situation and that generates the most useless debate (i know i know, i used that word, so i'm just clarifying), it simply involves choosing to which government you give your money, and what actions you thus condone. You may think that political involvement can outweight this... I don't. But that's another discussion,  more complicated than being coward or not being one.

Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine

by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 10:21:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Tazing is a known risk, yes. Police are by their institutional nature always interested in increasing their coercive power over the populace, which means this sort of activity has to be fought back constantly.

As far as emigration and choosing your government, I'd like to see more open borders but we're not going to have them anytime soon. Until the world is overall more equitable and the human population is under control we won't see it.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 12:40:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think there is a distinction to be drawn between a desire to obtain more coercive power and the fact that the police already has that increasing power. There is also the problem of the police acting as a political moderator in a public debate. This isn't part of coercive power, but political power.

As a result there is no reason to see the police as a institutional agent aiming at reducing crime, checked by a judicial system, and in which lawsuits are a check, or in which lawsuit signal political resistance.

Rien n'est gratuit en ce bas monde. Tout s'expie, le bien comme le mal, se paie tot ou tard. Le bien c'est beaucoup plus cher, forcement. Celine

by UnEstranAvecVueSurMer (holopherne ahem gmail) on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 01:03:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
rg, this is so fucking outrageously sick!

No one in the audience protested! Some even seemed to be amused!

According to MSNBC's report, Kerry simply went back to the question and answer session while this man was being violated! ... For having been called upon by Kerry himself and having asked a controversial question.

Words fail me.
.

by Loefing on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 08:02:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In fact, I think HST said he'd been to jail once, and that was for a crime he didn't commit.

The whole scene: It's like a cross between Idiocracy and Brazil.  American ET-ers: the sense I got is just...here's anna missed (from Moon of Alabama, link above)

Looks like the Milgram experiment in real life. The conformity and complicity of the audience is appalling, especially considering its a "liberal" one. Such displays of state violence have become expected to the extent that the audience is amused (and even cheering) as things begin to unfold, as if its a reality show - but then when the real violence comes on they laps into a catatonic stupor of inaction - like they are watching Rodney King at home on television. They don't call us sheeple for nothing.


Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 06:18:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's shocking, I've had several friends who have been on the recieving end of riot sticks. One of whom got £20,000 after being assulted by the police.

I've always seen the police having to threaten people to keep them from joining in in situations like this, amongst a political  group, I've always seen half the police facing out and dealing with the crowd around, the fact that you dont have the police looking out so they are expecting not to be interfered with

That's what I find most scary

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 06:32:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My brain ties this to the "We're going to war with Iran" message.  The audience is watching, thinking, making judgements...but the only people acting are "those in control."

I thought about what I'd've done.  Maybe stand up and walk to the front, say to Mr. Kerry, "Excuse me, but they seem to be arresting that guy for asking questions."

I dunno.  Something.  But yeah, "scary" is the word.

I also thought "Solidarity".  The lack of, and the results of the lack of.

Turns out the guy is a journalist of some kind.  I'm hoping some civil rights lawyer types get onto this.  The video evidence is clear.  The female officer makes her move and he was supposed to walk out, sorta like bouncers escorting you from a club.  "Out on the street you go, sonny!"  But he says, "Are you arresting me?"

I was also reminded of Migeru's question:

"What will it take to radicalise the middle classes?"

(Well, it was along those lines)

I also thought of Kent State back in the sixties (apologies if I've mis-remembered), when they took over the offices, the police hauling people out, but...a taser?  The sound...  And the police following procedure, and feeling that they have obeyed the rules.

HST destroyed a guy's career for behaviour like that--a counter charge, suing for millions of dollars for wrongful arrest, get the police on the back foot...any US lawyers in the house?

And now it reminds me of one of Bernhard's comments a while back:

"The latest thing in Germany is to steal the air from the tires of SUVs and then leave a sticker on the windscreen explaining about environmental damage."

(My paraphrase.)

The point being, "to act or not to act": when they taser a guy for basically banging on too long, that's too late...ach...someone better at expressing themself can hopefully express it better.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 06:47:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Somthing makes me think that they need a course in basic political organisation and resistance.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 07:14:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Judgments against the police are not at all uncommon in the US. Remember how this is a "lawsuit society?" People are not afraid to sue the cops for harassment.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 07:20:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
it wasn't that, more the fact that people weren't in the polices faces there and then giving them grief about interfering with the kid trying to speak. and even more that the police were acting as if they didn't expect to be interfered with.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 07:24:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know what you mean, but this wasn't a protest. An antagonistic crowd is far different than a bunch of people listening to a speech. The group psychology is completely different.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 07:39:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd still expect at least one person to get up and tell the police they were out of order. At the very minimum it should have been Kerry.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 09:05:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, Kerry definitely should have, but I'm not surprised that he didn't.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 09:20:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Give me your hungry, your tired, your poor
I'll piss on 'em
That's what the Statue of Bigotry says
Your poor huddled masses
Let's club 'em to death
And get it over with
And just dump 'em on the boulevard."

Lou Reed, Dirty Blvd.

"If you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles." Sun Tzu

by Turambar (sersguenda at hotmail com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 10:43:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Last week, a surveillance camera somehow appeared at the very door of the apartment building I live in. I have no idea who might put it there or why.

I always said that I will fight even the first small signs of an emerging "1984 scenario". It coming to my front door is really the point where I had to do something.

So, I just went down and taped it over. Anyone knows how this is regulated by law? Wilful damage to property?

"If you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles." Sun Tzu

by Turambar (sersguenda at hotmail com) on Tue Sep 18th, 2007 at 07:36:09 PM EST
Can anyone left standing now come together for a big group hug? Come on, you know you want to.

"If you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles." Sun Tzu
by Turambar (sersguenda at hotmail com) on Wed Sep 19th, 2007 at 10:17:56 PM EST
I was only superficially involved, but sure why not?

HUGS

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 08:48:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]


Display:
Go to: [ European Tribune Homepage : Top of page : Top of comments ]

Top Diaries

UK election thread

by fjallstrom - Dec 12
64 comments

It's Tory Austerity Stupid!

by Oui - Dec 9
65 comments

Leave UK <dot> DT

by Oui - Dec 4
71 comments