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To Taser or Not to Taser?

by rg Tue Sep 25th, 2007 at 02:13:35 AM EST

(Lifted from a salon comment at Nomad's request)

None of the following will make much sense unless you watch the clip

Welcome to the future — promoted by Migeru


[editor's note, by Migeru] For the front page, the video above the fold and the Om below it.

(Hat tip to Sam at moon of alabama for the link)

[For those without video access, here's the story.]

 Actually, that's not the story, it's a whole other "student gets tasered" situation, and maybe the following is written to pre-empt any such behaviour in UK academic establishments--or anywhere where the line between security and police is getting hazy, and anywhere where restraint = taser = no lasting effects = effective = okay method of police asserting their will = when the police come, you already lost = no negotiation = policing by power not consent = accepting one's lack of power =

...ach...rememeringgiap, as always:

wasn't it diogenes who sd the first thing you should do in a rich man's house is to spit in his face

then

"Diogenes is the first person known to have said, "I am a citizen of the whole world" (cosmopolites). This was a radical claim in a world where a man's identity was intimately tied to his citizenship in a particular city state. An exile and an outcast, a man with no social identity, " wikapedia

and then (he must have done a search)

"In the rich man's house there is nowhere to spit but in his face" diogenes

a subtle but real difference

All taken from Moon of Alabama, and my thanks go out to Berhard, as always.

Yes, the difference between spitting in a rich man's face as a necessary (self-imposed) act and spitting in a rich man's face as a necessary (there's nowhere else to spit--and who could want to spit?  In a rich man's house?...)

High tensions and storms in teacups  

Tasering students--Montysano over at Moon of Alabama related the carrying of weapons (fists are weapons--tasers are weapons--guns are weapons--bricks are weapons) to the Virginia Tech massacre.

So, for me, all the connections are...frying...the obvious paths look the same as the crazy ones.

Make that a triple ach

Right.  The video.  My thoughts

The guy's questions are no more than the sort of questions we ask here all the time.  Check out the guy behind him, not the police but the guy in the suit: he (I think) makes the decision to stop the questioning.

Also: The audience applauds (I think) because the guy didn't just ask his question and wait for an answer--so they were just saying "Thanks, police, for shutting up the windbag."

But then the guy says "What did I do wrong?"  He isn't going to play the game--okay, so far, so "Chuck him out the night club."

But then he starts shouting "HELP!  HELP!"  And that should have been the point (I think) where some greater intervention was needed (someone walking to the front and asking Kerry to intervene, or someone at least raising their voice and saying "Hold on a minute"--that kind of thing)--but then the guy goes down, people can't see what's happening, and the guy's voice is louder then softer and Kerry makes his joke ("I'll answer his question...you know...unfortunately he's unable to come up here and swear me in as president")--and that's the moment: the joke, the six police on the guy, that's all normal...the over-policing of a person who asked the kind of questions asked here at ET, and maybe even (cough cough) with the insistence on making our point through the question...and then the guy says...well just after he yells HELP...HELP! the policeman in front of him points a finger and says, loudly (so all around him for a good few rows in all directions will have heard: he said it loud to be heard:

"You will be tased if you don't t--"

The guy on the ground says "I'll walk out of here, just let me go."

And I can imagine on the ground he's trying not to be cuffed--so that's resisting and it must be police policy: "They resist, you tase."

So they tase, and THEN you hear an audible (to me) intake of breath.

And maybe that's what a lot of student-age people in the U.S. are pondering now--coz they clearly never thought it would happen, sorta like seeing a guy being dragged out of a club, and then whack whack WHACK!  Up against the wall and fists straight to the face--woah!

And then...a guy says "Holy Shit!"

And the guy on the ground is yelling "No, no", like he's in pain, and he doesn't stop (what does it feel like to be tased?  Maybe a couple of police officers would like to tase each other so we can see?  Sorta like when they have to go into a room where tear gas is released, so's they know the effect...)

How stun guns work?

Stun gun uses high voltage and low amperage to temporarily disable an attacker for several minutes. Stun gun does not rely on pain for results. The energy stored in stun gun is dumped into the attacker muscles causing them to do a great deal of work rapidly. This rapid work cycle instantly depletes the attacker blood sugar by converting it to lactic acid. In short, he is unable to produce energy for his muscles, and his body is unable to function properly. Stun gun also interrupts the tiny neurological impulses that control and direct voluntary muscle movement. When the attacker neuromuscular system is overwhelmed and controlled by the stun gun he loses his balance.

When a stun gun touches both probes against the assailant's body for ½ second, it will startle the assailant, giving him some pain, muscular contraction and shock. For 1-2 seconds, it will cause muscle spasms and a dazed mental state. For 3-5 seconds, it will cause loss of balance and muscle control, total mental confusion and disorientation, leaving him dazed. Under no conditions can you suffer a charge back to your own body, even if the assailant touches you while you are using a stun gun on him.

BestStunGun FAQ

So while the guy is going through that process--which lasts 3-5 seconds (and he's moaning "No, no, no") a girl can't take it and starts screaming at them to stop it--so THERE was the reaction--and I think maybe I'd've been the same coz up to then they were treating it as a "police as bouncers" situation.

All of which--and the next bit isn't news--it makes me agree with this comment (from Millman's link t'other day):

[...]the arrest triggered a protest by a group of University of Florida students Tuesday. One of them, Benjamin Dictor, called the arrest "an assault on reason itself."

"For a question to be met with arrest, not to mention physical violence, is completely unacceptable in the United States," Dictor said.

cnn.com

though that's not the quote I was looking for, but someone said they needed to get all security OFF the campus--was that someone here or at moonofalabama?  (IANAJournalist, clearly.)

Reading around the subject, I was dragged in by the "He's a prankster, he's done this before, he wanted to cause a disruption" info.  And, maybe this is just a UK ref. but I've never liked Trigger Happy TV precisely because I feel for all the poor schmucks (c'est moi) who aren't in on the joke and so they don't know how to react.

But now I remember Hunter S. Thompson's words, lots of 'em--he was Mr. Civil Liberties among other things--to the effect of: "This is a lifestyle bust."

Or: Tasering you today--in the exact scenario above--is acceptable if your past is unclean (with definitions of "not pure" to follow.)  Ach...very badly expressed.  This seems to me to be one of those "I could have been there" moments, and also it seems to me to be one of those "If that's unacceptable but you allow it to happen, what does 'unacceptable' mean (if I accepted it--if I didn't try and stop it) and what will I do the next time something unacceptable happens.

For me, arresting (trying to arrest) and then tasering someone because someone else (the guy in the suit--on my reading) decided the questions had gone on long enough--it means the guy giving that order won.  If the crowd had reacted badly--if they'd blocked the doors, or demanded Kerry stop until the guy was released (my preferred solution)--the cops were reacting, is my point, and if they meet no resistance they will continue to react that way.  And solidarity--always solidarity, and sudden solidarity when two people look at each other and say--out loud--"No way, that is NOT allowed"--and make that connection: next time, WE won't let it happen to US--

And then (as an idealist) I can ponder what US means....but let's start with two people who will look out for each other and together look out for those around them (including taking preventative actions in extremis--and yes, lines are hazy, so here's one: If the police want to taser someone who isn't being directly violent to another "non police" person--and here I mean, as I think DoDo wrote, that the police have long training in restraint techniques..or should have?  I mean, those cops...in the U.K. security is not a high-pay position)...

...ach....

Okay, let me put it this way:  Imagine the same thing happening at the Liberal Democrat Conference.

Here's a bit of HST.

For two days and nights I'd been running around the streets of Chicago, writing longhand notebook wisdom about all the people who were being forced, by the drama of this convention, to take sides in a very basic way...("Once again," I had written on Monday night, "we're back to that root-question: Which Side Are You On?").  And now, with this joint in front of my face [a guy had just said 'You're the guy who wrote that book on the Hell's Angels, aren't you?  Here, have a joint.'-rg], it was my turn...and I knew, when I saw the thing, that I was going to smoke it; I was going to smoke a goddamned lumpy little marijuana cigarette in front of the National Guard, the Chicago police and all three television networks--with an Associated Press photographer standing a few feet away.  By the time I lit the joint I was already so high on adrenaline that I thought I would probably levitate with the first puff.  I was sure, as I looked across the sidewalk at all those soldiers staring back at me, that I was about to get busted, bayoneted and crippled forever.  As always, I could see the headlines: "Writer Arrested on Marijuana Charges at Grant Park Protest."

Yet the atmosphere in the Grant Park that night was so tense, so emotionally-hyped and flatly convinced that we could all be dead or maimed by morning...that it never occurred to me not to smoke that joint in a totally public and super-menacing scene where, as the demonstrators had chanted earlier, "The Whole World Is Watching."  It seemed, at the time, like a thing that had to be done.  I didn't want to be busted; I didn't even agree with these people--but if the choice was between them or those across the street, I knew which side I was on, and to refuse that joint would have been--in my own mind--a fatal equivocation.  As I lit the thing I realised that I'd lost the protection of the press pass, or at least whatever small immunity it carried in Chicago, if any.  That billy-club jolt in the stomach [a policeman had stabbed him in the guts with his club when HST had said "What the hell do you think it is?" to the policeman's comment that the thing around HST's neck was "not a press pass"--rg] had altered my notions of press-leverage.

With the joint in my hand, glowing in the night as I inhaled, I figured, well, I may as well get as numb as I can.  Then, in a moment of fine inspiration, I took a nice lungful and handed the joint to the AP photographer standing next to me.  His face turned to putty; I might as well have given him a live hand grenade...and then...then...like a man stepping up on the gallows, he put the thing to his lips and inhaled...

...and I knew I was home free, or at least I wasn't going to be busted.  He'd been standing there very cool and observant waiting for something to happen on the front lines while he stayed on the balls of his feet ready to run when the bayonets came; I could almost feel him over there, a heady presence, vaguely amused at this flagrant felony being committed under the eyes of the National Guard and taking sides, himself, by declining to photograph us...and it would have been a fine Chicago Tribune--style photo: "Drug-Crazed Hippies Defy the Flag"...and then, it was his turn.  When he put the joint to his lips and drew on it very skillfully I knew he had measured the balance of terror and decided that it was safe, under the circumstances, to smoke a joint in public.

CHICAGO--SUMMER OF '68, from FEAR AND LOATHING IN AMERICA, pp113-118

Right.

Display:
Okay, let me put it this way:  Imagine the same thing happening at the Liberal Democrat Conference ?

Or at the Labour Party conference perchance ? No tazers, but it did take 3 goons to overpower a 78 year old man under anti-terrorist regulations. Sweet !!

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 07:51:38 AM EST
I thought about that incident too.  It's that slippery slope--but also (for me) it encourages my sense of just how much more violent are the undertones in the U.S.; how there is escalation rather than de-escalation.  The guy who got hauled out of the hall (in England.)  It was a national disgrace, and yeah it was one of those "Wha--?  No way!" moments.  

The veteran Labour delegate who was yesterday ejected from the conference hall for heckling received a hero's welcome when he returned this morning, and won an apology from the platform by John Reid.

Walter Wolfgang came back to a warm reception from rank and file at the Brighton conference, and warned the party "you can't stifle debate by hiring heavies".

Tony Blair this morning apologised to the 82-year-old, a Jewish refugee from the Nazis, who was physically ejected from the conference hall yesterday and refused readmission under the prevention of terrorism act.

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/labour2005/story/0,,1580806,00.html

I'm just working on one of the tones I'm hearing from the U.S., "What can you (I) do?"  And I suppose I'm thinking that these videos (of one incident) will make people think: "The first thing is, ponder what is 'beyond the limits' and ponder how best to act if and when such a situation occurs."  Each will have their own way, but if everyone has...that look in their eye...that says, "I know the limits, and if you step over them I'll act"--

--but always always with a sense of DE-escalation.  We don't need any more wars or people adding punches, but self-and-others-around-you protection...ach...maybe this comment explains it a bit better:

The more people are told that everything is OK when it obviously isn't, the more they are surrounded by lies, by "war-is-peace" thinking, the greater cognitive dissonance they are forced to bear, the more alienated they become. And alienation leads to disassociation, which then leads to the individual searching for a way to deal with these feelings. Idealization, and its evil stepchild, fundamentalism, are ways of dealing with our feelings of having no control, of alienation. In other words, we are seeing idealization as rationalization to prevent further disassociation.

malooga at moon of alabama

I read in something extra here.  I read in that the disassociation (the lack of contact--SOLIDarity) leads to the individual isolated and therefore a step behind the action. not confident to act because..."What if I do the wrong thing?"  And I suppose the social message: "There IS a wrong thing, and if you do it you are bad and will get what's coming to you."

I believe the police have a name for the situation where people they pick up for questioning will start admitting to things irrelevant to the enquiry.  A friend years ago was taken to a police station because the police suspected that someone on the coach had been involved in a fight at a nightclub (they were all travelling back.)

"I just started feeling guilty," he said.  "I thought of all the things I'd done wrong."

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 10:12:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We have so many rules and offences in the books that enforcing them all would be insane, Society would grind to a halt. So apart from useless legislation we have selective enforcement, which is arbitrary and lends itself to all sort of discrimination.

But the point I want to make is this: if they were out to get you, they could very easily ensnare you with minor offences. Jaywalking, for instance. And when you tell the police officer to go fight real crime, he charges you with resisting arrest, or something. Or maybe you forgot to communicate your change of address to the whoever issued your driver's licence. Or...

Oye, vatos, dees English sink todos mi ships, chinga sus madres, so escuche: el fleet es ahora refloated, OK? — The War Nerd

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 at 02:21:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed. See "Capone, Al" and "income taxes".

Looking forward to the universal UK DNA registry. "Looking forward" in the sense "time to leave" of course.

-----
sapere aude

by Number 6 on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 at 08:25:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think there are quite a number of elements to this. Personally I am not interested if there is guilt on Kerry's part or not, or the guy in the suit (that I had not noticed, when I watched the video), or that that guy has a history of pranks (which sounds like a lame excuse), but your, rg, statement of "not again".

We should not allow this in our midst, the least that should have happened was that people had drawn great attention to the brutality of the incarceration - I think, it does not really matter, that a taser was being used, that is just the latest form of sanctioned police brutality.

Rather than pointing their cameras (there are multiple video's I believe) a non violent interference would have been more appropriate.

So, hopefully people will be less stunned next time and are courageous enough to show solidarity.

- side note: I heard the clapping as well and understood this to be a reaction to his question, meaning, what kind of answer do you expect to your question, one that could satisfy you? Never! Get that troll out.
The switch from being relieved he wasn't holding up more serious questions (if there were any?) to showing solidarity didn't work.

by PeWi on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 07:55:22 AM EST
I agree that non-violent interference would and should have been the de-escalator.  I have to say, though, that all the kids shooting this on their phones and then putting it on the web have done us a service.  There's a link at the beginning of the diary to another tasering incident, but as there's no video evidence, it all breaks down into "he said/she said."

Which makes me wonder now whether the next stage will be: "No phones in the hall"--the way they take your camera if you're taking pictures near a military establishment.  I don't know anything about these phones, but are some capable of real-time imaging?  I mean, you don't have to save the film and then transmit, but you can leave the line open and film and send in real-time.

I think A Swedish Kind of Death is far ahead of me on this (but hey, I only got my computer on Friday and I still haven't moved over to kubuntu [if it works, I'll diary how I did it]); the impact technology is having on the wily young, how the networks--and this is happening at ET--are not only "words on a screen" but also social contacts, an interflowing, where people (I'm thinking US students here) can watch the videos (a solitary pursuit), and then they'll be onto their contacts, both physical and networked (from friends in other towns to friends they just ain't met yet--nomad!), but...

...but as there will be physical confrontations, and as there will be attempts at illegal action by those who are paid to uphold the law (taking advantage of the individual's lack of knowledge of their rights)...

I'm gonnae have to look into the UK Pirate Party.  But first I'm gonnae need to get a tad more tech. savvy, get down with the young folks.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 09:52:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Already in the UK we have CCTV systems being "down for maintenance" during large scale protests, if this becomes commonplace, could the mobile phone system suffer from similar gliches?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 10:04:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know enough about these wireless networks that individuals can set up, but I imagine for some quids and with a bit of knowhow (and I always have found people who know A LOT about computers who tend to be anti-authoritarian--it's a club, and you can only join if you ask the right questions [c.f. spybot--Search & Destroy, offered to me by one of the many who know about computers here at ET--thanks TBG!])...sorta like walking out of "Windows world"--and everything is...different.

I have this sense that we're right in the middle (or at the beginning) of an evolutionary step, where the "bad people" have their hands on the old levers, cos they have the time, the inclination, and the narrow focus, they have accumulated enough money to win all their fights, sooner or later--money as a magnet--like gravity, it's cumulative--sucks people and objects in.

"fighting this war as if it were the last war"--where "this war" is a war on...greed and selfishness, I think.  So generosity--the sharing of what we have, including our abilities to protect each other...ach...I've typed lossa words but feel very...mucho difficulty in my expression of ideas.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 10:23:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've seen reports of mobile phone jammers being used in Iraq to prevent the triggering of  IED's, it may be that the police will deploy these around protests for 'Public Safety'. As a backup there are many cities now with wireless open-air networks. Setting up a wireless network is reasonably easy, however you would need a point to connect it into the rest of the worldwide network, that would be the more complex part.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 10:35:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
thinking further on this, there would probably be a use for a reference somewhere as to how to make a piece of video film so that it was usable as evidence in court.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 10:40:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you can find one, I think it would be a useful piece of information to have on public view.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 07:24:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
though I immediately think: each jurisdiction would be different.  But okay, let's emulate Spybot: have the rules for as many jurisdictions as possible available here at ET.  For any budding video types, here are the laws, here's what you can and can't do: written down.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 07:26:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it is pretty common that mobile phone systems go down or work poorly during large scale protests. But also during music festivals. So I think the mayor part of phone services going down is lack of overcapacity, when you collect lots more people in an area then the mobile phone system is designed for.

That does not stop your mobile phone from working as a recorder however, and you can after leaving the affected area send the film.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 10:52:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The first thing I see when they're setting up for concerts (normally sponsored by mobile phone companies) in the Phoenix Park is the installation of auxiliary phone masts.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 11:00:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So we should have sponsored protests?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 11:16:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That might do it!
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 11:20:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We could have protests that look as if they're sponsored.

This idea is wriggling in an interesting way. I like it.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 08:58:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Short of confiscating phones - which won't work well, because I think most people would rather leave a venue than hand their phone over to the police - there's nothing that can be done to prevent people in a protest making and uploading a huge number of different video recordings of the event.

This is more or less the only practical oversight available to us, and it has the potential to be very powerful. We've already seen it having an effect.

What needs to happen is that alternative/protest/citizen media need to go mainstream, with an editorial layer.

Some of that is framing, some of it is presentation, some of it is money.

The problem with YouTube and LiveLeak is that there's no context, so there's no narrative. You watch someone getting tasered, you watch an IED explosion, you watch some freak weather, you watch someone doing BMX stunts, you watch some cats being stupid, you watch someone getting tasered...

Editorial gets a bad rap from the citizen journalism movement, but it's exactly what's needed to merge hundreds of different clips into a social and political pressure point.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 11:00:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that's (one of) the role(s) that ET is developing into.  (Did anyone say ET LLP?  Cough cough cough!)

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 12:03:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
apparently its easy (-:

Need to set up mime types on a web server or a specialised media server.

Then point real player or wap broswer to a load page to stream. It may be the network operator will block streaming. In this case you have to download the video stream locally first.

Steve

from here

you would need 3G though.

baically what I did was google
"live streaming video phone"

and aparently it has been used even by fox, so it cannot be that difficult.
http://www.bizreport.com/2006/10/fox_used_streaming_video_on_cell_phone_to_break_ny_plane_crash_news .html

by PeWi on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 10:43:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you have two new phones you can have video and sound in a conversation these days. Not much used as it is new and a bit expensive, so there is no problems in using it real-time.

If you want a simple rig for a better quality live-feed, a handheld digital camera (with video function), a small laptop with a card for wireless network (preferably in a backpack) and access to a wireless net is what I would go for. That is more citizen journalist equipment, more to be used if you have time to prepare before the event. It can then be wired continuasly to a webpage or a third person who can edit it if necessary.

The PP UK looks like it has some problems setting sails. I do not have the specifics, but generally the pirate parties has lots of tech-savvy people. What is primarily needed is organisation-savvy people. So do join and you will find you have lots of help with kubuntu if you need it. :-)

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 11:12:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey, I clicked on the link, click click, and came across this...

http://www.p2punite.org/?q=node/1

So--okay, off I go--I anticipate huge gains for the greens, because I've always been a bit of a 20% person,  you know: 20% roughly get it like I do, and so I'm in a minority.  So:

Conservative?

Labour!

Labour?

Lib Dems!  (I'm thinking England--(:

(That's me trying out one of those new smileys (o"

So now, if I go Pirate...but hold on...

Lib Dems?

Greens!

Greens?

Pirate Party!

The range is so wide, it's hard to know where to start, and is a party even necessary?

A party is always necessary!  There should be a party every two weeks, and it should be called "You Survived The Last Two Weeks, Yay!" party, but not everyone is invited....

heh heh hay!

They're invited if they can find an invitation.

I think your approach (and your successes) re: file sharing are completely avant garde, fighting real fights in real time, to everyone's benefit (those who lose are those who can afford--and how--to lose a bit...maybe that's my fantasy)...

But...I'm not a techie, though I think you're great (here I only include the techies with the beating hearts...cough cough!  I mean, if you know that thirty thousand euros [give or take the monetary imabalances in your various economies] is better than fifteen thousand euros; and if you know that fifty thousand euros is...twenty thousand euros-worth of a world resource...

Yoink!

I think that for me to join the Pirates is for the pirates to be very generous with their time and their brain power, and so far (Firefox Thunderbird Google Spybot Open Office)

Okay, a serious question.

I see google everywhere in these free applications.  No money down, no money later, but a subtle sign saying, "Google"

I've convinced myself that Google finance wikipedia and  their cahootsiness is why you can type in about any noun ("mountain" "iron" "Iraq" "Money" "Sex" "Seed") and the first (or second or third) page is...the wikipedia article.

I'm sure that can't be because it's the most wanted or the most linked, but it might be because it's the most read...but that's because it comes up first.

So...I'm an ignoramus.  Is Google (Evil!  They made their deal with China) doing good things?  Is there a plan, or is it...give it away, make sure it's good, watch the positive energy flow...?

Ach aye!

Splice the main brace!

Too strange...for words...



Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 07:19:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Google is much cleverer than the pirates are. The GooglePlan seems to be to create a range of irresistible applications that people can't live without.

This is unlikely the Microsoft approach, which is based on producing barely functional products from a position of aggressive contempt for the customer base, and throwing marketing at them until they stick to the wall.

But anyway.

Google is taking the long view. Google apps are just starting their play for world domination. Five years from now they'll be more obvious. Ten years from now they'll be more obvious still - while Microsoft will be struggling. Fifteen years from, if there's still an Internet, people will be running live Google apps on the distributed GoogleGrid.

The Pirates just want stuff for free because they want it. They don't really contribute anything. Are they responsible for Firefox and the rest? Not really, no.

Which is better? Neither. What the world needs is file sharing with micropayments. Download, pay a tiny sum. Cut out the record companies, and support creative artists directly.  

Will that happen? No. Because rewarding creative effort isn't something the pirates are interested in. Artists are supposed to be flattered that they have been deemed worthy of dowload and iPodification. Having to eat - not so important.

So the pirates are more interested in appearing to be rebels for the sake of it.

Only - you know - downloading MP3s really isn't the last word in social dissent, exactly.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 09:13:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have a theory....

that there will always be someone who will do music/painting/photography/any other art you can think of
for no money.

How many photo books will remain unread because we have the weekly ET photo round up?

How many potential photo artists here will be unfairly removed from a potential cash source because someone redirects here for people to view their photos for free?

I think the money to be made from the arts will be made by artists.  Those who aspire can struggle, but an artist  is like the guy who walks tightropes between tall buildings illegally

I can download the entire works of Billy Holiday and a thousand other artists.  Why should I care if a person thinks they have a great hit on their hands?

An artist has (I think) a need to produce their art--I mean, they have an urge to produce art...and value is in the eyes ears taste buds skin and nose of the beholder, and artists are those who can get food--or maybe not....because art isn't a job, where you pick up a salary.

The craft may take time to learn, and applying the craft is maybe a worthily paid profession.  But Ry Cooder knew he was going to make his money from music by the age of fourteen.

So I think: make the best music you can; offer it out.    Play live--meet the public, whether by radio, or MP3s on the web, get it out there, and hocus pocus, like Firefox (have you ever paid them money?  Does the app work?)

Okay: I think the danger with micro payments as obligatory (whether legal or moral) is that the idea of deserved payment is the antithesis of the fee gig, the bring-a-bottle party (both of which do at least one person out of potential booty)...

Session musicians are right to have a union and charge union wages: they sell a skill.  Ditto mixers, recorders, videographers, sales people...

Ya know, I've always enjoyed Tom Waits, and I like it that he left Island to join a small label because (and maybe I paraphrase) "I liked their attitude."

Or: is the music supposed to have some musical effect, or is all the hard work supposed to be repaid in money?    When the police threw Fela Kuti's mother out of the first floor window of his compound...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fela_Kuti

...ya know, if the only money accrues to artists from countries in the lower half of the 177 classification, will art have suffered?

Ach aye!  

Would ET musicians be happy to produce an album of music for the listening pleasure of ETers without asking for cash?

And would they still be happy if the album became the most downloaded album in history?

I mean, if you can eat yesterday, today, and tomorrow, and if you get sick you can quickly see someone who can help you then you may well be better off than most...

I simply don't think it is fair to say the creators of Open Office, Spybot, and the like don't contribute...you were the one who put me onto Spybot--Free!  £0!!!

Isn't free software as unfair to the programmers as free music is to musicians?  But I LOVE free software--I get where I want to go without having to schlep at some pointless task.  Shouldn't it be the same with music?  

And for the musicians who can't create without being "full time", there have always been avenues...there are worlds where music is breakfast, lunch, and dinner--I have a friend who has harboured his dream of leading his group to victory since he was fourteen!  He is now a DJ in Oslo (and very happy, thank you very much)...coz music was his passion, not just his own but  that of others...

Och aye!

I see no reason why one can't make great music and be a road sweeper, and I see no reason why a road sweeper should earn any less (or more) than anyone else.

Also (as if I hadn't banged on enough!), I see a clear difference between learning, say, the bassoon, where the time is long and the concerts are rare, and learning "popular music", where the notes are basically tonal and the riffs are mostly in four beat.  Folk music should earn its money from the folk...and it seem s live gigs are the way forward, with maybe some music sales possibilities...sorta like the freeware--for those who...

ach, maybe I mean: If us liberals aren't willing to cough up when we have the cash (I mean: donate to Open Source projects), then we are part of the other system....

Heh heh!

I think you should write a diary about the music aspect.  You have strong feelings about it, and experience, and I think it would be good to see your aspect laid out as you wish and...yes!..at length, with all the context you want...ya know...I sorta know where you're coming from, but where I live there are a lot of musicians who distinguish between

being paid for performing music

and

making music they enjoy playing/listening to

...to be a good pianist you need maybe two to three hours practice A DAY...for at least two or three days a  week.  Most of the jazzers teach by day.  I don't think they'd turn into Charles Mingus if they didn't have to teach...

And Charles Mingus was a pimp, among other things.

peer to peer--the pirate model is, I think, the future.  FREE ACCESS TO CULTURE!  ALL OF IT!

Wouldn't that be great if you had no money?

The whole "you could afford it but you won't pay" aspect is a separate cultural issue, I think, and really: when we're all happy to pay the real price--when we insist on paying the real price for our lifestyles from morning to evening...the world will change...cough cough!

Och, I sorta see where you're coming from, but I think there are nuances and it I think it would be useful to see them laid out as you wish, extrapolated, coz I think there are undercurrents I'm missing (but I also have alternative roots in mind, 'twould be interesting to compare and contrast)...so...my lord, quarter to three!

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 09:45:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How many photo books will remain unread because we have the weekly ET photo round up?

None, at a guess.

Not really comparable though.

We have a fair use rule for how we use quotes here. Why does the same not apply to music?

Why do we never say 'Hey, I read this book - it was interesting - so I scanned it and uploaded it to bit torrent'?

What makes music different?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Sep 21st, 2007 at 04:10:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why do we never say 'Hey, I read this book - it was interesting - so I scanned it and uploaded it to bit torrent'?

What makes music different?

Because a music clip lasts 3 minutes but the book takes 3 hours or 3 days or 3 weeks to read.

And because we don't have the tools to copy and splice video and audio files like we do have a keyboard and cut-and-paste. Not everyone has a scanner, and scanning a book is a lot of work anyway. Everyone has a CD player on their computer, and software to rip it and convert it.

If people don't have to scan the book but actually have the audiobook or a PDF e-book they are more likely to just upload it to a bit torrent.

So it is not the same, not by a long shot.

Oye, vatos, dees English sink todos mi ships, chinga sus madres, so escuche: el fleet es ahora refloated, OK? — The War Nerd

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 at 02:07:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That doesn't apply to 'fair use' of articles that could be copied in their entirety from a web site.

You're also confusing the cost required to copy something with the value of the content, and saying - in  effect - that just because something is hard to copy, it becomes more valuable.

Oddly enough, this is exactly the argument used by the RIAA and others to support DRM.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 at 06:09:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What I'm saying is it's much easier to do "fair use" with text than with other media. DRM doesn't enable fair use anyway.

Oye, vatos, dees English sink todos mi ships, chinga sus madres, so escuche: el fleet es ahora refloated, OK? — The War Nerd
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 at 06:18:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, there's plenty of books on P2P. Any of the great SF writers - possibly because that's what the "scanning community" likes to read - but also the major bestsellers. Harry Potter 7 was on Usenet within hours of the US release.

The difference is that unlike music the default format ("hardcopy") requires more work to convert to a "sharable" format.


-----
sapere aude

by Number 6 on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 at 08:31:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
OK, Migeru already said this. Sorry.


-----
sapere aude
by Number 6 on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 at 08:32:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Though not the best picture, I think it is important to notice that after the tasering you can hear a mans voice yelling "Police brutality! Police brutality! Rodney King!" and a womens voice "No! Why are you doing that? Why are you doing that?"

You can see the women better in this video that also follows the questioner through the school building. In the end of it the questioner - fearing for his life - is asking the onlookers to question the police for his whereabouts and to tell the world. (Hat tip to citizen at moa for this one).

I think it is important because there is reaction - mostly shocked - and resistance though it is unplanned and ineffective.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 07:59:45 AM EST
Hi someone!  Long time no read!

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 10:25:33 AM EST


Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 10:26:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hi there!
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Thu Sep 20th, 2007 at 12:50:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And that should have been the point (I think) where some greater intervention was needed (someone walking to the front and asking Kerry to intervene, or someone at least raising their voice and saying "Hold on a minute"--that kind of thing)--but then the guy goes down, people can't see what's happening, and the guy's voice is louder then softer and Kerry makes his joke ("I'll answer his question...you know...unfortunately he's unable to come up here and swear me in as president") --and that's the moment: the joke, the six police on the guy, that's all normal...
WTF is wrong with John Kerry? It makes me almost glad he had the election stolen in 2004.

Oye, vatos, dees English sink todos mi ships, chinga sus madres, so escuche: el fleet es ahora refloated, OK? — The War Nerd
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 at 03:09:04 AM EST
You just wish it had been stolen by someone nicer?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 at 03:28:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wish we didn't have to care who gets installed as strong man of the regime.

Oye, vatos, dees English sink todos mi ships, chinga sus madres, so escuche: el fleet es ahora refloated, OK? — The War Nerd
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 at 03:33:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Some days US isolationism does seem a good idea.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 at 03:42:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd say it's overdue.


-----
sapere aude
by Number 6 on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 at 08:34:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

That's a really crappy video of the event. This one is much better.

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/iqAVvlyVbag"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IATPoHdpak0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

Hmmm... that's a shame, Scoop doesn't let me embed an <object>? Never mind, follow this YouTube link.



We're trapped in the belly of this horrible machine, and the machine is bleeding to death.
by davel on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 at 12:35:25 PM EST
http://www.eurotrib.com/special/new_user_guide#howvideo

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 at 12:58:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hi davel, and a belated welcome to ET from me.  FYI, there are a few macros for embedding video, which you can find here.  So here's your video embed:

by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Tue Sep 25th, 2007 at 01:02:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Did you see the grin on the fat cop's face at -0:16 to -0:15?

And there is some lady smiling at -1:18.

WTF!

Oye, vatos, dees English sink todos mi ships, chinga sus madres, so escuche: el fleet es ahora refloated, OK? — The War Nerd

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 04:56:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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