Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.

Wednesday Photography Blog No. 4

by In Wales Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 02:24:38 AM EST

It's Wednesday!  Share your photos day!

What's been going on?



Take a look at Wednesday Photography Blog No. 2 for all the technical details on posting photos.  Please try to keep them to 600 pixels max width and 100kb in file size. Feel free to ask questions about that here.

I'll look forward to seeing what you all come up with today!

Display:
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 02:25:58 AM EST
You've gone to the same photography school as estHer, I see.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 02:38:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
lol! I felt that his shoes were fairly distinctive and representative of his overall style. But I'm honoured to have a photo of mine compared to one of estHer's!
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 02:43:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Where was the demolition photo taken, In Wales?

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 03:10:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
well there's a Cardiff taxi in the foreground...

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 03:41:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course! Am I blind?

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 04:19:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yep, Cardiff city centre, the Hayes area.  A massive hole now exists where we used to have a small shopping arcade and some offices, county library, a car park, the outdoor fruit and veg market, a couple of roads, a big toy store and my ice rink.

It must have cost an obscene amount to acquire all of that land.  The already rather large St David's arcade (shopping centre) is going to be expanded into a Really Huge and Super shopping centre that no locals can afford to shop at. It's imaginatively named St David's 2. Wow.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 04:25:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Here are some photos taken last month from the windows of TKMaxx, which used to be David Morgans, established in the late 1800s (I think) and was an original department store, with a haberdashery department and everything.  It went out of business earlier this year or last year and has been converted into apartments (fancy having your apartment in the old lingerie department...) and shops, TKMaxx being one of them.

Here is the hole in the city centre.  The above demolition photo was taken from the left of the first photo below;

I must go back and take photos that actually line up properly, but I get weird looks from the staff in there... A new Borders book shop is opening next door which is a floor higher so I'll try there next time.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 04:35:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

How I managed to get a shot of a thai train station without any people in it, I really don't know.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 02:27:51 AM EST

A young charm seller on one of the highways of Chiang Mai.  The charms protect cars and people from evil spirits or bad luck.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 02:30:13 AM EST
Here's what would normally be a boring photo. A few weeks ago I went to Trocadero in hopes of shooting some skateboarders in action (there weren't any) and I shot this photo of the Eiffel Tower upon exiting the metro. I can't say why but I like it.



Hey, Grandma Moses started late!

by LEP on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 02:57:30 AM EST
I spent a fair amount of time around there when I first went to Paris last December.  It's a good place to view the tower from, especially when it is lit up at night.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 04:37:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Here's an example of how photography can open one's eyes.  This was taken while crossing the bridge over the Montmartre cemetery going toward Place de Clichy. I must have crossed this bridge 200 times when I lived in Montmartre and I don't recall ever noticing that you could see the Eiffel Tower from that bridge.



Hey, Grandma Moses started late!

by LEP on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 03:20:51 AM EST

by Magnifico on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 04:00:46 AM EST
Take 2. I'm still learning the ins and outs of posting with picasa.

by Magnifico on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 04:13:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by Magnifico on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 04:15:39 AM EST
Nice photos Magnifico.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 04:18:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I love this. I like abstract photos and rust has a great colour to it.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 04:27:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Lovely detail and color.

You have a normal feeling for a moment, then it passes. --More--
by tzt (tzt) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 05:59:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Pond/Tiergarten, Berlin


Hops on wall/Kulturbrauerei, Berlin


Fall leaves/Tiergarten, Berlin


Castor bean plant/Tiergarten, Berlin


Grass closeup/ Tiergarten, Berlin


Berries/Tiergarten, Berlin

by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 05:05:36 AM EST
In Brittany, July 30, 2007.



Hey, Grandma Moses started late!

by LEP on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 05:09:56 AM EST
estHer really has a good eye for images! This is great!

You have a normal feeling for a moment, then it passes. --More--
by tzt (tzt) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 06:00:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks. I'm embarrassed to put up my own photos when I compare them to hers. She's only 13 and she uses the simplest and cheapest Canon you can buy. Almost every photo she does is a creation.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 06:21:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Deutscher Dom/Berlin


Hackesher Markt S-Bahn/Berlin


Column detail/Pergammon Museum, Berlin


Angel's crack/ Opera house, Berlin

by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 05:13:00 AM EST

This is northern part of Kullu valley with Manali town. I always wondered why photography does not represent reality faithfully - When I was making picture snowy mountains at the distance were really big and grand, but camera diminish them, and enlarge nearby objects.
by FarEasterner on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 05:17:36 AM EST
Perhaps a panoramic crop of just the mountains would work. Increase the saturation to bring out the green of the trees and up the contrast a little.  It's hard to get distant features to show up well, especially where there is a little haziness in the air.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 06:42:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It's also a lot bigger than the recommended size - as in your reminder here - seems to be 1000 wide and over 300k.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 09:02:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru and Someone are trying to work how how this can be prevented using the style templates.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 09:49:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A physical view of reality is a mosaic that's constructed in the brain. Your eyes don't really see a near-180 panorama, but your brain is clever enough to create a map that represents the spaces around you in a way that corresponds accurately to physical experiences of distance.

A camera takes a literal snapshot through a relatively small window, and you just get the snapshot, not all of the assembly and processing around it that creates the experience of space.

The standard photo aspect ratios aren't wide enough to trick the brain into interpreting a view as a space. To get an impressive panorama you have to fake what the brain does by stitching together different shots into a wider view. If the panorama is wide enough you can trigger the space perception response.

You can also print large, which can have a similar effect. And use a very wide lens.

But a small photo won't usually do it. Which is why wide-field landscapes often feel disappointing compared to the real thing.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 07:47:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But his disappointment with the apparent size of the mountains has more to do with this than the panoramic aspect:

SIZE CONSTANCY - A TENDENCY TO CHANGE VIEWING DISTANCES.

AN IMAGE DOUBLES IN SIZE WHENEVER ITS DISTANCE IS HALVED. The brain compensates for this.

A test - look at your hands, placed at arms length, draw one hand closer to you by bending your elbow - the hands continue to look the same size, even though the furthest away hand is half the linear size.
Now let the nearer hand overlap the other and you will see the difference in size - the hand nearest to you covers the other hand........ even though you know they haven't change size, just their position.
(This was first identified by DESCARTES)

http://www.users.totalise.co.uk/~kbroom/Lectures/3gs.htm

Which has a lot of interesting stuff about visual perception.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 09:34:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Interesting link thank you but in my case it's more with imperfect camera lense and flat representation of three dimensional world than with visual perception.
I think wider lense may improve things but so far I have seen pictures taken with it they were also distorted. That mean that eye is much better instrument than we usually think.
by FarEasterner on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 12:25:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No it DOES have to do with visual perception, as the quotation explains. Thus when you look at mountains your brain knows they are big and and scales them up, the camera records their visual size as it is from there - hence the disappointment. You certainly don't need a wide-angle, which would only make them seem smaller. A tele lens tends to compress perspective, things look closer together, so the mountains will loom over closer objects and look more like your brain's adjusted image of them.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 01:11:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Serial number check/Hackesher Markt S-Bahn, Berlin
by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 05:17:36 AM EST
Obligatory fairground shot:

Moving cars:

Local supermarket carpark:

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 05:32:41 AM EST
These are great. Which camera did you use?

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 05:45:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Fuji S2 SLR. Nikon 17-35 and 24-70.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 05:55:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
These are great! Do you use curves to saturate the colours?
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 06:45:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They're shot RAW and mostly processed with the raw converter in Photoshop.

Usually I turn up the Black, and work with the white balance. That adds contrast, which makes the colours punchier.

Saturation on its own tends to add noise. I use it sometimes, but it seems to be better to use one of the alternatives.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 06:55:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, thanks. I've noticed the noise with saturation which is why I don't like using it too much but I really love images with punchy colours and wasn't too sure how to achieve the look.  I shoot RAW more often than not now so I'll give that a go.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 08:03:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You can also switch to LAB mode, increase saturation, then switch back to RGB to save.

LAB mode uses an odd orthogonal colour map which separates the intensity and colour information, which means that you can turn up the saturation much more than in standard RGB without adding nearly as much noise.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 04:35:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, I'll have a go at some point.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 04:50:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wonderful stuff. I love the colors in the third photo. And the movement in the first and the second.

You have a normal feeling for a moment, then it passes. --More--
by tzt (tzt) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 06:01:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Brittany, July 30, 2007.



Hey, Grandma Moses started late!

by LEP on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 05:34:17 AM EST
Seaside, southern Sweden, pier.
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 05:34:42 AM EST

Grapes on Pergola/Potsdam, DE


Sun through pruned trees/Potsdam, DE


Vine w/ berries/Berlin

by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 05:53:34 AM EST

Rainbow in fountain/Potsdam, DE


Fence from moving bike (don't try this at home!)/Potsdam, DE


Corvid on scaffolding/Berlin

by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 05:59:27 AM EST
I like the fence shot very much.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 04:36:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Tram (taken from moving bicycle)/Potsdam, DE


Inter-city train/Berlin


Prague rail maintainence train/Prague, Czech
(I don't remember if I already posted this-sorry if so!)

by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 06:17:57 AM EST
Nitpick: the second is no IC, probably an RE (Regional-Express). I recognise the famous bridge over Gesundbrunnen station, BTW.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Oct 6th, 2007 at 11:43:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Until we get the real metavision button (the one that rates every comment +4), can I just say +4 to everyone.  Intriguing photos, lots of different approaches, subjects, really great work, thanks!

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 06:44:20 AM EST


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 07:33:41 AM EST


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 07:35:23 AM EST


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 07:36:22 AM EST
Would someone with the proper bits consider updating the ET style sheets with: img{max-width: 600px;}

(I have of course my own way to impose this condition. But I see no reason why it should not be a general restriction.)

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 07:37:01 AM EST
640 px please. Picassa does 640px, not 600px.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 07:43:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The max-width will just resize too large pics, not disallow them. However, 640px would be fine as well. The exact number is not too important, as long as it is small enough to not muck up the screen.
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 07:49:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think we agreed on 640px in photo blog #2 and the accompanying technical diary.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 07:54:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
img {
 position: relative;
 max-width: 640px;
}
Can you test that it works?

Oye, vatos, dees English sink todos mi ships, chinga sus madres, so escuche: el fleet es ahora refloated, OK? — The War Nerd
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 08:30:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Those values seem to yield a nice page.

(By 'test that it works' do you mean, impose the values to see what they do, or that you updated the style sheet, and can we see a difference? I assume the former. Yes, forcing this style works well.)

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 08:40:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I mean 'can you see the difference?'

Oye, vatos, dees English sink todos mi ships, chinga sus madres, so escuche: el fleet es ahora refloated, OK? — The War Nerd
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 08:42:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yesterday's cocktail on the beach:

cocktail-galion-40296

Some of today's lunch - re-arranged :-)

lunch-face-40301

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 08:47:23 AM EST
You should have been a French chef, Ted. Nouvelle cuisine of course.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 08:50:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Waterfall/mountains around Colima, Mexico


Wave breaking/Manzanillo, Mexico


Our kitty drooling, bigtime!/Home, Sweethome

by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 09:10:46 AM EST



Hey, Grandma Moses started late!

by LEP on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 09:19:55 AM EST
I love the Washington metro!
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 09:25:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Here's a couple more of one of the smaller Washington stations.



Hey, Grandma Moses started late!

by LEP on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 09:40:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is one of my favorite recurring blog posts, I really appreciate a space to share my photos. Sorry for taking up so much of it, I'm trying to restrict myself to just a few (I'm obviously doing such a great job of it though!).

I love reading all the content normally posted in text form, but I can't type that fast, so my thoughts most often leave my fingers in the dust... This however, is a medium that I fell at home in...

Thanks to the editors and the front-pagers for all of the hard work and all of the 'regular' content!

Ciao, Gioele

by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 09:20:34 AM EST
(I'm obviously not doing such a great job of it though!).
by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 09:22:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We love seeing the photos so don't worry about restricting yourself too much!  Really great to get feedback that this type of blog is appreciated so thanks very much for the comment.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 09:28:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Be careful what you ask for!

Heh, heh...

And, you are welcome.

by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 09:46:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
When I travelled for a living it was my misfortune to miss seeing Virginia's autumn foliage for 13 straight years.  Usually we would be in some desert or tropical country, but during a brief visit to Riga, I was enthralled to find some of the leaves still remaining.


Pond and Trees


I loved the gentle curves of the pond, leaves, shadows and tree branch.



I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 09:31:01 AM EST

Ferrets on leashes/Dresden, DE
I saw these rascals out at the Biergarten in the middle of Dresden and had to document it. I thought it very unusual!


The Dancing Dogs/Colima, Mexico
Official mascots of the city of Colima.


Hatchling with needle/Amsterdam, NL
I didn't see the needle (at top) until I was going through the photos in the process of Photo-bucketing them! I whole-heartedly approve of the Netherlands drug stance, but this drew from me a morbid chuckle...

by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 10:02:07 AM EST
Ah, ferrets. Those little furry critters are adorable. Though quite smelly. One of my university roomates had two of them, roaming our room. They were very curious, trying to participate in everything. And, when you'd try to exit the room, they would be right at the door, trying to get out. So, we kept a pile of pillows on the other side of the room, picked up the ferrets by the door and tossed them onto the pillow pile. This was their favourite game in the world, and they would eagerly try to goad you into throwing them whenever possible.
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 10:07:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My best friend at aged 8 kept ferrets.  My lasting memory is of one of them hanging off his finger by their teeth with him screaming his head off about it, trying to prise it off.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 10:15:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]


Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 10:15:10 AM EST

This is not a photograph taken by me, obviously;  it comes from my father's archives. I hope that that's personal enough to justify my publishing it here.

This is a silver print [one of 5] that was given to my father by what must have been a close buddy, 'Paul'. Somewhere along the line, the box that housed these images took on some water. The letters and photographs I found in it were in various stages of decomposition.

The dedication reads: 'To Bob -- In memory of the days when the issues were clearer. Paul. Guam. August 1944'.

.  

by Loefing on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 12:00:50 PM EST
Wow. Thanks for posting this. Do you know when the note was written by Paul? It could have been written last week.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 12:10:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
LEP, I don't know when the photograph was taken, but I presume that the gift / dedication to my father most probably corresponds to the date 'Paul' provided: August 1944.

A tad more info: my mother recalls that Paul was a war correspondent, photographer, for the San Francisco Chronicle [what he's got around his neck looks a lot like a light meter, in fact]. It's no certainty but strikes me as plausible.

by Loefing on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 12:53:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What do you think he meant by "the days when the issues were clearer?"

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 12:58:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Paul and my father set out thinking that they had a noble role to play, 'for humanity'!, only to realize that, no, they'd been duped.

This was in 1944. How many recounts of soldiers' disillusionment have there been since?

Why we have not learned from them is the question we need to be asking ourselves.

   

by Loefing on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 01:20:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But yes! Young men are made to believe that enlistment is necessary, for a "good cause".

Inevitably, regardless of epoch, soldiers become disillusioned.

Why this pattern can be repeated as frequently as it is ... collective amnesia, power of propaganda? That's the question.

by Loefing on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 01:05:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If your father and Paul felt duped when there were at least good arguments that they were saving the world from
several powerful madmen, think how the soldiers feel today in Iraq, where many of them are quite aware that they are the "bad guys." Thats the reason so many of them are losing it both over there and in the U.S.when they come home.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 01:29:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmm. 'Several powerful madmen' in WWII. Precisely. There were any number of them. An appreciation of just who and how many comprised the group of madmen is up for discussion.

That war, WWII, was as much a showdown between financial interests as any other war has been.

War games for profit have always followed the same paradigm.

by Loefing on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 01:52:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't dispute that WWII was, in part, about economic power. But I don't see where Hitler's and Stalin's slaughter of millions and millions of people had anything to do with protecting financial interests; unless you are saying that those slaughters were the means to gain or consolidate the power to protect financial interests. I would maintain that their mass exterminations were counterproductive economically and that their root was sheer madness.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 02:04:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Inevitably, regardless of epoch, soldiers become disillusioned."

I think it's a bit more complicated than that; Vietnam was not the same as WWII and nor is Iraq.  I don't think most veterans of WWII, on the "Allied" side were, in general, "disillusioned" as far as the cause was concerned, it's still known as the "Good War" - the Nazis and the Japanese military were pretty obviously bad guys to most Allied soldiers and remained so for many of them. Bush lied about Iraq's supposed WMD, the Japanese actually attacked Pearl Harbour.

A major turning point in enforcing this new "good war" memory regime was the controversy over the "Enola Gay" exhibit in the Smithonian Institution in Washington, D.C. Whereas the initial more scholarly concept envisioned placing the dropping of the atomic bomb over Hiroshima fifty years ago within the larger concept of the racist and dehumanizing "war without mercy" in the Pacific theater, the veterans' lobbying groups forced this concept to be ditched. Instead, a filiopietistic much smaller exhibit was shown beholden to the "good war" paradigm. While in Germany the veterans' organization had failed to salvage their selective memories of the killing fields on the Eastern front, in the United States the veterans succeeded in enforcing their one-sided memory of heroic marines and valiant sailors. Their killing frenzies in the island campaign and trophy taking of Japanese body parts was purged from the public memory

http://hnn.us/articles/5419.html

This is not to say that it WAS a "good war" of course:

At the time consciences were numbed the war had to be won, and ``they had it coming'' but it is not now easy to look back with pride on the scores of thousands of women and children incinerated in Hamburg in July 1943 or Dresden in February 1945.

 Nor on the other moral compromises at the war's end. Great Britain did not go to war to save the Jews from Hitler's torment (and did not succeed) but to protect the freedom and integrity of Poland, an aim that Churchill, with Roosevelt's encouragement, abandoned at Yalta. Worse still was the forcible repatriation of prisoners to torture and death in Russia and Yugoslavia. And yet all this was not simply conspiracy or betrayal: The Iron Curtain, with half of Europe under Soviet rule, was a painful but logical consequence of the way the West had let Russia do most of the fighting.

Was it ``a noble crusade''? For the liberation of western Europe, maybe so. Was it a just war? That tricky theological concept has to be weighed against very many injustices. Was it a good war? The phrase itself is dubious. No, there are no good wars, but there are necessary wars, and this was surely one.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2005/05/08/how_good_was_the_good_war?pg=full

But I'm sure most soldiers, on all sides, came to understand that war is a horrific business, and not the idealized adventure presented in so many films - even if they continued to think WWII was a necessary war.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 02:45:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Mnnnnh

But I'm sure most soldiers, on all sides, came to understand that war is a horrific business, and not the idealized adventure presented in so many films - even if they continued to think WWII was a necessary war.

I thing not.

by Loefing on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 07:27:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
which is precicely why I posted this picture.
by Loefing on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 07:32:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
hasty posting

'I think not'

and 'precisely'.

by Loefing on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 08:05:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But Gringo, like me, LEP, etc. disagrees with some of what you said about it.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 07:30:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's fine that you should disagree.

I simply don't adhere to the disagreement :-)

Wars are contrivances, used as tools to manipulate societies.

I do not see the pretexts for WWII as having differed from those of any other wars the world has known.

by Loefing on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 07:44:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ted?
by Loefing on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 09:36:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Absent for temporary medical reasons :-)

I simply don't adhere to the disagreement :-)

Wars are contrivances, used as tools to manipulate societies.

I do not see the pretexts for WWII as having differed from those of any other wars the world has known.

We don't disagree about THAT - see the second part of my original response - we disagree about your general claim that soldiers in all wars become disillusioned with the reasons for the war. As I pointed out many on the Allied side remain convinced it was a necessary war - whether this is so or not is another issue.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Sep 28th, 2007 at 06:56:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"many on the Allied side remain convinced it was a necessary war - whether this is so or not is another issue."
I'd be interested in seeing a discussion of this.Can you or Loefing do a small diary on this topic in order to get a discussion started? I am not qualified to do it.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Fri Sep 28th, 2007 at 08:58:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay, I see your point.

I would add, however, that you're splitting hairs.

Review the photograph I posted and its dedication. Listen to the veterans of the Viet Nam war. Lend an ear to the testimonies of Iraq war veterans and others.

They tell strikingly similar stories.

My question is how we can continue to accept indulgence in these same infractions time and again. Repeatedly. And, moreover, relentlessly, today?

If this is not sign of deep-seated illness, what measure should we be using?

 

by Loefing on Fri Sep 28th, 2007 at 11:33:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No it's not splitting hairs - it's a very significant fact that so many vets on the Allied side of WWII did not become disillusioned about the cause. I over-simplified in saying we agree about your general view of war:

Wars are contrivances, used as tools to manipulate societies.

I do not see the pretexts for WWII as having differed from those of any other wars the world has known.

Yes, in general war is used to manipulate societies, but that's not all that's involved every time - and wasn't in the case of WWII, particularly on the Allied side. Hitler did use war to help drag Germany out of its economic problems and to exert control over society  by restoring national pride (after the humiliation of defeat in WWI). However the British establishment in general and most of the public did want to avoid a rerun of WWI  which had caused such huge losses - hence appeasement.  Churchill was a relatively lonely voice warning about Hitler and German rearmament. Hitler forced the issue by invading Poland (rather different from Vietnam - which was invaded by the US). The American population in general were not interested in getting involved in another European war - and Hitler actually declared war on the US, while, as I said, the Japanese did attack Pearl Harbour.

SO there are significant differences between WWII - on the Allied side - and later imperialist attacks by the US on Vietnam, Iraq, etc. This is reflected in the differences in attitude of most Allied WWII vets and vets of later US attacks. The difference is significant, not hair-splitting.  

Similarly I think it's over-simplifying to say that

we... accept indulgence in these same infractions time and again. Repeatedly. And, moreover, relentlessly, today?

If this is not sign of deep-seated illness, what measure should we be using?

Again there are differences in the public's response to various wars which are important and which don't mean we're just doomed to go on making the same mistakes. As I've pointed out before in ET, Chomsky is pretty cynical about the powers that be, but not pessimistic about people in general:

Looking more closely at the anti-war movements in both cases, I think, as noted, that it has actually been greater in the case of Iraq than it was during any comparable state of the Indochina wars. Furthermore, this country has significantly changed as a result of 60s activism and its aftermath. The movement against the war in Vietnam, when it finally developed, was not "diluted" by the wide-ranging concerns of activists today. I can easily elaborate even keeping to my own experience. Consider just talks. In the late 1960s almost all requests were about the Vietnam war. Today, only a fraction are about the Iraq war, not because the war is not a concern, but because there are so many other live and important concerns.

Furthermore the deluge of invitations is far greater in scale, on all sorts of issues that were scarcely discussed 40 years ago, and audiences are far larger and much more engaged. And there are many other factors detracting from activism, such as the enormous amount of energy drained away by the "9/11 Truth Movement." There may be an impression of less anti-war activism today than in Vietnam, but I think it is quite misleading - even though protest against the war in Iraq is far less than the crimes merit.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=11718

And the disillusionment of the US military has set in far more quickly in the case of Iraq than Vietnam.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Sep 28th, 2007 at 05:47:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, I can't take on a broader discussion of the issue of WWII, just now, for lack of sufficient time.

But as a preamble to what I would say and hopefully will explain further, soon: motivations for all wars, regardless of epoch, boil down to the reconfiguration of power relative to competing poles, at the expense of civilian populations, the very populations that finance them.

The cannon-fodder, "patriots", or whatever you might like to call the poor bastards who go to war based on ulterior motives, lies and illusions, are bound, eventually, to ask themselves just why they're being asked to kill fellow humans.

WWII was no exception to the rule.  

by Loefing on Sat Sep 29th, 2007 at 05:00:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Surely much of the lack of disilusionment is down to post hoc justification making it a good war. WWII in europe can be put down to a failure of the diplomatic and military class at the end of WWI. Without theindustrialisation of death by the Nazis it may have been much more difficult to portray it in the same way.

In the pacific, a good argument can be made that the US and UK political and diplomatic classes forced the Japanese into attacking,and them maneuvered the Japanese into a position from which they could sell the attack on perl harbour in a light that was favourable propaganda wise.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Sep 29th, 2007 at 05:58:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I recall my father, a veteran of WWII, speaking of the horrible nature of war several times.  I never heard him describe the war as good.  My impression is that it was not something he enjoyed at all and that he certainly knew that soldiers and sailors on both sides were suffering horrible deaths/wounds. I do believe that he and most others who participated on the allied side thought the war was necessary, and I'm glad they do/did.  It's not pleasant to live with the alternative, I can assure you.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears
by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 10:43:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
WWII has been described as the last war worth fighting. There is some truth to that, either because we would fight it if we were living 70 years ago, or because the way people thought about themselves and their place in society changed significantly after the war.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 07:46:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
WWII has been described as the last war worth fighting.

So was WWI

by Loefing on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 08:17:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have to say, in hindsight, WWII (and its preludes and aftershocks) was probably worth fighting, but WWI was not.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 08:37:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you like.

But we're coming up on another major confrontation, here.

Do you not see a continuity between the present world context and the previous 2 world wars?

Clues: havoc in Central Banks, economic configuration, worker compensation, purchasing power, wage disparity.

The ingredients that comprised the basis of the previous world wars are all there/here. But instead of addressing these issues, head-on, the decision is to smash yet another defenseless nation.

Smash 'n bash.

Otherwise known as 'fuite en avant'

by Loefing on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 09:08:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I constant refrain of mine is that now I know what living in the 1930's must have been like. 9/11 was like the Reichstag fire and Iraq is like any of the colonial wars by axis powers in the 1930's. Will Iran be Poland? There has certainly been no ultimatum like there was after the annexation of the Sudeten.

We have met the enemy, and it is us — Pogo
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 11:19:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
if Russia and China don't want one. They are capable of squeezing the gonads of the west without loss of one life, and don't think they won't if they think an attack on Iran is dangerous to their interests.
China has the ability to send the U.S. economy ( and the rest of the west with it)into a tailspin by dumping U.S. bonds. Russia can find the need to do maintenance to its gas lines to western Europe in Dec. Jan. and Feb.
You don't think they'll play hardball? And there's no nuclear blackmail against them.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 11:58:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]


'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Sep 28th, 2007 at 04:15:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you have any reasons for what you "thing"? :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 07:24:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you are in France, you probably can't watch it, but I've been absolutely glued to the Ken Burns documentary, The War, for the past 3 nights.  Which is shocking to me because I'm really very hostile to the idea of war or any propaganda related to it.  Not to mention I'm sick of war at this point.   But I guess he's just a brilliant filmmaker, because I've been completely sucked in.  It's told from the POV of Americans, but it doesn't glorify anything or avoid all of the things we did wrong during WWII either.


"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 12:16:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the reference. It might turn up on the internet, eventually.

I hope the series is receiving a broad viewership in the US.

by Loefing on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 01:31:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Very interesting. Thanks for posting.

You have a normal feeling for a moment, then it passes. --More--
by tzt (tzt) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 06:03:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The old Absolut vodka factory:

The new Absolut vodka factory:

Which do you prefer??

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 02:22:23 PM EST

The new one; it's nice and bright and shiny :-) and almost certainly built to higher standards of hygiene and safety. Now, pass that bottle :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 02:51:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

False bee on wild flower/Baden-Württemberg, DE (Schwarzwald)


Large moth/Berkeley, CA


Our other cat lounging/Home, Sweethome

by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 03:47:04 PM EST
Bit late to the party.. Have been working on a photoseries depicting the New Centrum of The Hague in all its ugliness..

I'm going to have to put these here as thumbnails since the medium size would be more than 100kb, so click if you want to see the proper pic.









The camera I used this time: Hasselblad SWC. Film is medium-format Velvia.

You have a normal feeling for a moment, then it passes. --More--

by tzt (tzt) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 05:50:05 PM EST
I find the blue photo very heavy and depressing. The photo, I'm sure, reflects the reality.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 02:40:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
By the way, I love to browse through your flickr site. Your drag queen photo is incredible.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 02:53:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you LEP. That photo was a lucky one; I just happened to be passing by where the drag queens posed on Queen's Day.

You have a normal feeling for a moment, then it passes. --More--
by tzt (tzt) on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 at 04:06:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]


'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Sep 26th, 2007 at 06:24:52 PM EST


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