Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.

Gag reflex

by Migeru Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 07:46:13 AM EST

In reaction to UK Chancellor of the Exchequer Alistair Darling's anouncement of a £500bn (yes, you read that right) bailout plan for British banks, Evening Standard commentator Anthony Hilton writes

The other thing to note is that the political landscape has changed. Only a month ago, such a move wan inconceivable. There will be a political price to pay for this. For the City to continue to thrive, we must hope it is not too heavy.
(My emphasis) His column is appropriately called City Comment.

Gah!


Display:
So I went to bruch with the missus. Afterwards on the way to the bus stop I saw a sign advertising the Evening Standard and I joked to Barbara 'Look, they got the headline wrong, it has one zero too many'.

The surreal part was to see the morning Guardian with last night's £50bn headline next to the afternoon's Evening Standard with Darling's 7:30am £500bn.

The evening standard calls it 'half-nationalisation' as the £25bn (extendable to £50bn) recapitalisation facility will be in exchange for preferred shares.

City traders call this too little, too late. You heard that right. Too little.

Countdown to wholesale nationalisation...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 07:50:21 AM EST
so if £25 billion is half nationalisation, £500 billion menas we've aquired five times as many banks as there are? ;-)

(on one of the valleys leading over the hills to mid wales for at least ten years there used to be a farm with an evening standard sign board leaning against the side of the house. The sign always said "Horse Manure available inside" I always meant to take a picture, but it was always too dark when I passed. Finally when I went out with the camera in daylight, the farmer had sold the sign).

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 07:58:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm kind of nostalgic.  What happened to the countdown to $200/barrel oil?  How about a countdown to food riots?  When the food riots hit, you know the FUN has really begun.  All this money/banking crap is just preliminaries.  Piece of cheese before the main course?

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:03:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
LONDON (AFP) - Britain rushed out a package worth up to 875 billion dollars Wednesday to head off a banking collapse as markets went into freefall over fears the worst financial crisis in decades has still not hit a peak.

Panic selling set hit key European and Asian stock exchanges and a drop of nearly 10 percent in Tokyo prompted Japanese Prime Minister Taro Aso to voice "huge fears" for the future of the world's second biggest economy.

Central bank moves to increase the amount of available credit did little to calm the frenzy.

Unveiling a package which will see Britain's eight main banks part-nationalised, Prime Minister Gordon Brown said "extraordinary times call for... bold and far-reaching solutions."


Amazing how these things grow.

Capitalism searches out the darkest corners of human potential, and mainlines them.
by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 07:56:01 AM EST
Darling managed to beat Paulson by 25 to 40%, who whoulda thunk?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 07:58:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
with an economy a fifth the size...

But if you count the full £500 bn, you need to count the full range of interventions by the Fed up to now, as it has taken increasingly shitty collateral and is now accepting commercial paper.

Some have priced the total commitments of public money at $2.6 trillion already (see my link to Ian Welsh in my nationlaisation diary).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:03:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But you also have to count the BofE interventions to date...

Though Chris Cook has argued convincingly the BofE is actually making money out of NR...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:04:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In per-capita terms Ireland takes the cookie (Iceland tried but couldn't make it).

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:05:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What a colossal robbery...and no one is even blinking...
Either those BILLIONS are already not worth anything (and we are about to find this out pretty soon) or really robbery of colossal proportion on international scale is taking place just in front of our eyes.


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 09:28:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I vote BOTH!

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 09:30:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's really scary how right you've been. If you had put your money where your mouth have been, we could have had a €100 million think tank by now. ;)

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 11:31:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Better to do it with Soros' money.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 11:35:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
psst...hey wanna be our broker?

we'll send in €5 a month each monthly and you play with it on your laptop while we're slaving away and take yer cut, ya lazy number-crunching capitalist sod!

:)

help us off the hamster-wheel into the vaunted realms of the elite 1%!

beat the crunch with ((*Mig's Asset Protection IncTM))

why doesn't the macro thingy work, did i blunder?

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 05:53:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
with the current state of the markets the best strategy would be   to put your money here

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 05:59:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The easiest way to win the lottery is to fill in the forms for lottery funding.

Not that ET would qualify.

Would it.

Would it? [long pause for thought...]

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Oct 9th, 2008 at 09:33:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Unveiling a package which will see Britain's eight main banks part-nationalised, Prime Minister Gordon Brown said "extraordinary times call for... bold and far-reaching solutions."

Gordon, you're still being timid.

Just let them fail, take them over, guarantee the deposits, wipe out shareholders and creditors, dismiss the management, reorganise the operations and resell them if and when there's an appetite for private ownership of banks.

£25+25bn is not bold or far-reaching.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:01:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The macho economy seems to have gone from competition about who has the biggest annual return to competition about who can score the biggest government handout.

¨Mine was $700bn.¨

¨But mine was 800% of GDP.¨

A brave try by the UK, but Ireland's epic opening move is going to be tough to beat.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:57:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
£250 bn in guarantees of Interbank Lending (as I understand it)

£50 bn in buying preference shares of 8 banks.

£200 bn into the "Special Liquidity Service" - which launders toxic assets by exchanging them for Treasury instruments. (Government is stuck with them?)

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 07:59:12 AM EST

Central banks launch co-ordinated rate cut

Central banks around the world announced a co-ordinated cut in interest rates on Wednesday, in response to mounting fears about the impact of the financial crisis on the world economy.

The US Federal Reserve, the European Central Bank, the Bank of England, and the central banks of Canada, Switzerland and Sweden all cut their main lending rates by 0.5 percentage points.

German and UK government bonds fell sharply on the news. In London, shares initially rose, but then drifted lower, and at 12.30 local time the FTSE 100-share index was down about 0.7 per cent on the day.

This is all about saving the City: the current crisis was created by too much cheap debt - how on earth will more cheap debt help solve that?

Lending to the real economy is not constrained because it is too expensive to borrow money, but because banks don't want to take on any additional risk (even good risk) because they realize they are carrying too much of the wrong kind and need to reduce that - and thus the price for risk (the risk premium) has skyrocketed.

Interest rates have 3 components, in fact:

  1. the cost of money (set by ECB)
  2. the cost of liquidity (or the risk on other banks, which is skyrocketing)
  3. the cost of actual transaction risk (which hasn't changed much for good counterparties, but has also skyrocketed for the toxic stuff)

The first one was too low for too long, and has led to the second one going up as banks realize they've gorged on garbage (ie they mispriced the third).

Bringing the first one down is not the solution to the crisis, which impacts items 2 and 3.


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:01:26 AM EST
If they lower interest rates again they're going to at best get another bubble...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:02:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the issue is that at the same time as all this fun stuff in the city... the "real economy"?/"Main Street?"/whatever is going into recession... and the knee jerk reaction to that is always monetary, not fiscal.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:07:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Housing Pain Gauge: Nearly 1 in 6 Owners 'Under Water'

The relentless slide in home prices has left nearly one in six U.S. homeowners owing more on a mortgage than the home is worth, raising the possibility of a rise in defaults -- the very misfortune that touched off the credit crisis last year.

The result of homeowners being "under water" is more pressure on an economy that is already in a downturn. No longer having equity in their homes makes people feel less rich and thus less inclined to shop at the mall.

(...)

About 75.5 million U.S. households own the homes they live in. After a housing slump that has pushed values down 30% in some areas, roughly 12 million households, or 16%, owe more than their homes are worth, according to Moody's Economy.com.




In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:13:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I think I'm about to get into one of my hysterical laugh moments (last was with the unforgettable 'it failed because Nancy Pelosi said unkind things about George Bush in her speech):

Judging by the French stock exchange, they launched a bubble that lasted...

3 hours and 30 minutes.

Is that ((gaah)) ? Or ((weee)) or something?

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:53:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Will have to settle on [Cyrille's Jawdrop™ Technology] then.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:55:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, misread the graph.

The bubble lasted 90 minutes.

We are going for nanoseconds of confidence soon.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 09:01:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I love this place!

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 09:09:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The bubbles get shorter and more frequent.

The sum of the lengths of the bubbles converges to a finite amount: the time to the phase transition.


A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 09:53:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... pushing on a string. While high interest rates can restrain extension of credit ... the only question being how how ... low interest rates cannot force extension of credit.

In which circumstances only a fiscal stimulus can be effective.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 10:10:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
into a diary on dKos:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/10/8/8418/54185/713/623735

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:33:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nobody is recommending it. We are reaching the "shoot the messenger" phase...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:46:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
you just forgot to add the word "Barack" or "Obama" to the title. :)
by Detlef (Detlef1961_at_yahoo_dot_de) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:59:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They're most likely still distracted by OMG Teh Awesome from last night.

Don't expect much sense from the Clockwork Orange until after the election.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:59:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're getting comments about how the interest rate cuts are actually working...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 09:50:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome a Paris:
This is all about saving the City: the current crisis was created by too much cheap debt - how on earth will more cheap debt help solve that?

that's like wondering why a heroin junkie doesn't want to taper off with methadone...

i don't think many in financial services have the equanimity you display, when it comes to contemplating the return of banking to the stodgy world it was before 'melamine' derivatives came along.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 05:33:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
to you financially astute folks:

When do we admit that we are slaves to the Communist Chinese govt.?  I get the feeling that all of the shit we're currently seeing is prelude to the world bankers/govts./rich folk going to the Chinese for a bailout.  Our fates are no longer our own and we're too stupid to realize it (yet).

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:25:45 AM EST
This whole financial crisis shitstorm is doing wonders for ET.  Just check out the Recent Diaries.  No shortage now!

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:29:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Cynic. As if Jerome would arrange a worldwide financial crisis just to get people writing more diaries...
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:31:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's slightly worrying that in far too many ways that's a realistic least bad option.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:44:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What's it doing in terms of readership?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:34:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
is up from slightly over 2,000 unique visitors per weekday before to closer to 3,000 in the past couple weeks.

See here

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:48:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:49:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
hope this place is prepared for a surge.  All peoples' finances, all the time.  This could be the place.

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 09:28:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
naked capitalism: A Plan for China to Bail Out the US
A Plan for China to Bail Out the US This proposal by Arvind Subramanian in the Financial Times makes quite a lot of sense, but given the collective denial in the US about how bad things are (despite the cratering of the markets, neither Presidential candidate was willing to say the economy would get worse, when that is a given) and our dependence on China. And by the time we might be ready to ask for help, it will probably be too late. Americans are too wedded to the idea of our superiority, wrapped in the only slightly less offensive packaging of "exceptionalism" to realize that our economic crisis will lead to a permanently diminished standing.

I am not in agreement with the focus on helping homeowners in the proposed plan (I agree with the idea of extended social safety nets, particularly since that money will be spent, providing a cost-effective boost), but directionally, the idea has merit.

From the Financial Times:
The financial rescue plan passed by the US Congress is viewed as flawed but necessary to head off panic in financial markets and loss of confidence in the economy. It seems a holding operation, a Plan C or D that might need augmentation via a Plan A.

A vital component of a Plan A is likely to be additional money,,,

Where will this additional money - perhaps as much as another $500bn - come from? ...

Enter China. Ken Rogoff of Harvard cheekily characterised the vast Chinese accumulation of US Treasury bonds over the past five years as the biggest foreign assistance programme in history. Why not push that further? Here is a thought experiment.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:30:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you mean I was at least partially right?

This doesn't look good people.

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:50:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:52:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not wealthy; I don't take all of this financial shit seriously; it doesn't affect me directly.

What would hurt is, if I go down 1.5 blocks to the neighborhood shopping mall and both grocery stores are boarded up, front display windows obviously broken into.

Where do suburbanites like me get food FOR TODAY if there is a run on food?!  Quite honestly, I've NEVER known hunger.  Is that what's coming?

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 09:16:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Stock market in the US is about to open and the DOW futures are DOWN 200 points!

"They're at the starting line!  Get ready!  Get set!"

Another day of fun.

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 09:25:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You forgot to mention India...they are moving everything they can to India as we speak...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 09:43:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I must admit that I know so little about whether or not this will make any difference that I hesitate to comment.

However one of the things that seems obvious to me is that the banks got into this mess with their own profligate behaviour, especially in terms of rewarding dangerous levels of risk. Yet this money seems to be a message to carry on doing what they were doing. I will not be alone in being angered when traders start getting their multi-million Xmas bonuses on my taxes. this money shoudl comew with strings attached that say "you're all civil servants now and you don't get bonuses for doing your job".

Within a week of AIG being baled out by the US, the entire senior staff pissed off to a spa resort for a week, running up a bill of hundreds of thousands of dollars. Maybe there ought to be a group of aggrieved taxpayers turfing fat cats out of fancy restaurants saying, "Not on my money, you ain't".

Entire departments need to be phased out of existence, entire transaction disciplines need to be rendered illegal, certain fiscal methods needs to be curtailed. Banking needs to be neutered to prevent it ever threatening the economy again, it's infrastructure and should be rendered a low-profit activity.

And I still think we should guillotine a few of 'em and parade their dripping heads through the streets on poles.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:31:06 AM EST
"And I still think we should guillotine a few of 'em and parade their dripping heads through the streets on poles."

Helen, I'll only have one word: oestrogens!

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:38:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
(What was it again? ['s Macho Moment of the Day™ Technology] ?)

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:39:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Try again
[Cyrille's Macho Moment of the Day™ Technology]

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:40:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm sorry, my personality was twisted by 25 years of being resentfully, unwillingly male. Rancid vindictiveness long gouged deep raw chasms for the acid bile to flow thorugh uninterrrupted.

5 years of oestrogen hasn't yet begun to soften the blasted landscapes inside my head. It just stops it getting worse.

I won't use French cos I know it annoys some, but my method would at least "encourage better behaviour in certain others who might otherwise be tempted". right now we're just saying "carry on, we've got plenty more for you to waste. Triple bonuses for everyone !!!"

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 09:27:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Helen:
Rancid vindictiveness long gouged deep raw chasms for the acid bile to flow through uninterrupted.

thanks for bringing back some of the unique flavours of being raised in good old blighty, you got pretty much my whole early adolescent mindset summed up in that pithy sentence.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 06:33:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As a believer in non-violent solutions, I can't go with the guillotine. I did sinfully enjoy the story that Lehman CEO Fuld got punched in the face unconscious at his gym for being so arrogant and blaming everyone but himself. You'd need a few bob to be a member of that type of gym, so I assume it would have been one of his peers who was so incensed.

Hopefully, as the loss of pig wealth accelerates, there will be more fisticuffs among the inmates. And if weapons were to be used then I think I can morally put it down to the useful process of self-culling. But otherwise, I am with Ghandi on this.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:42:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And I still think we should guillotine a few of 'em and parade their dripping heads through the streets on poles.

I was the first one to mention guillotining over a year ago and I AM THE RESIDENT ET LOONIE!  :)

Please get back to being a nice peaceful even-tempered European.  Leave the violence to the people who really like to see blood flow ... AMERICANS!

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:58:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's the problem, you see the violence as a product. That's amateur hour.

Violence is a method. Everything is a weapon, terror is a tactic. It's what you intend that guides your hand in all this. This is too important to leave to those who want to enjoy the mayhem. A cool head and a chilled hand is what's needed in bloody times.

Smashing stuff will not do. Some say "if you go to shoot the king, you must shoot to kill". I would say you must do more than shoot the king, you must kill the idea of king. Lay it waste and salt the fields where the idea grew and festered. Methods, weapons, tactics; all flow from intent. Not vice versa.

Don't invite me to your revolution, I'll spoil your fun and make it something terrible.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 09:41:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And I still think we should guillotine a few of 'em and parade their dripping heads through the streets on poles.
 

I used to have an appetite for this kind of punishment but I've changed my mind. Let them just for their entire life live like we "middle class" live...they will commit suicide straight away...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 09:50:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Who knew that Gordon Brown was a closet Marxist? He is implementing the Alternative Economic Programme of the 1970s, by the stealth nationalisation of the commanding heights of the economy.

I expect Comrade Brown and Comrade Darling laugh about how they pretended to be right wing New Labour hacks, while they waited for the inevitable collapse of capitalism.

by Gary J on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 08:42:42 AM EST
Capitalism really and actually collapsed not being able to protect it self from this colossal robbery.
Not state or tax payers will ever see any benefit from this "nationalization". What is there to nationalize? Debt? Mostly rented bank branches and buildings?
Government is paying those bastards with our REAL money.Bankers never lost anything because there was not anything to lose there...but imaginary value of real estate we stupid people bought. Don't you see this? Worthless papers that circulated through our economies...Up till last year I was sick listening on the news how this or that bank reported RECORD PROFITS. Where are those billions? Projected on a lie...on false prices of real estate that will now level. They are gone long time ago.
This is a robbery of colossal proportions and it is of international scale.
I never thought I will live to witness anything like this and I had to witness a lot in my life.
But this robbery of the middle class in progress will have dire consequences for those robbers too after awhile...it is just made so everything on this earth is here and so for the reason. Unprecedented greed can only lead to the disaster...
 

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 10:17:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
vbo:
Unprecedented greed can only lead to the disaster...

...and the disaster will lead to a new world economy, impossible before because the tech wasn't there yet.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 06:37:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Where the hell do they get £500bn?  Isn't the British economy only about £2.5tn, if that?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 10:23:57 AM EST
Wait, no, not £2.5tn but $2.5tn.

So they're going to spend 1/3 of GDP on this?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 10:25:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ireland is spending 3xGDP...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 10:31:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Makes the Paulson Plan look like pocket change, although, as I understand it, the British and Irish plans involve at least quasi-nationalization.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 10:57:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
10% of the British plan is an equity injection. 40% is all your shitpile are belong to Gordo and the remainder is an interbank lending guarantee.

Metatone dug up a reference that £250bn is the interbank lending volume as of September 2007. Before the crisis started the volume was £650bn. I don't know about the duration of that volume of lending.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 11:00:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
By that 40%, you mean Brown is basically going to do what Paulson wanted to do -- that is, buy up Big Shitpile at inflated prices without the equity stake?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 11:02:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think so.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 11:29:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh well, let's listen to the voice of reason and realize there really isn't anything else we can do:

MD of Pimco Europe:

INSTANT VIEW - UK unveils financial support package for banks | Reuters

"Moral hazard is a concept that nobody can afford when markets are going down at this rate."

Believe me, I can't afford to gag.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 11:40:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ha.

Well, like Krugman noted brilliantly: "Just as there are no atheists in foxholes, there are no libertarians in financial crises."

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 11:49:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm going to go post that everywhere.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 04:16:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here is another Shitpile that wants to be bought

BuyMyShitPile.com: Hey Washington, can you buy my bad investments too?

With our economy in crisis, the US Government is scrambling to rescue our banks by purchasing their "distressed assets", i.e., assets that no one else wants to buy from them. We figured that instead of protesting this plan, we'd give regular Americans the same opportunity to sell their bad assets to the government. We need your help and you need the Government's help!

Use the form below to submit bad assets you'd like the government to take off your hands. And remember, when estimating the value of your 1997 limited edition Hanson single CD "MMMbop", it's not what you can sell these items for that matters, it's what you think they are worth. The fact that you think they are worth more than anyone will buy them for is what makes them bad assets.



Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 02:23:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
40% is all your shitpile are belong to Gordo

lol, all hail to the enabler-in-chief!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 06:38:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is nationalization without takeover.. only partial takeover of the CEO board (some string to the CEO).

The measure is seen in Spain as the other extreme of the Paulson plan... being the spanish plan the perfect middle....

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 11:20:08 AM EST
Uggh,

and the British house price bubble just began to deflate.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Wed Oct 8th, 2008 at 04:01:03 PM EST


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