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Somber Thoughts on Mass Demonstrations

by de Gondi Thu Nov 13th, 2008 at 06:59:19 PM EST

May 2, 1968 Paris

At the Sorbonne right wing militants ransack and destroy the classrooms occupied by the student movement.

May 3, 1968 Paris

A student demonstration against the rightwing incursion at the Sorbonne degenerates into a four-hour pitched battle in the Quartier Latin against police forces. The students tear up cobblestones and improvise barricades.


These are but two small news items, perhaps crucial, that triggered what was to be known as May 1968. But May 68 began long before, throughout the world. Berkeley `64. Trento `66. Germany, Spain, Poland, Algeria, Mexico, student movements most often were countered with state violence.

On November 14th Rome will once again host a massive demonstration by students, teachers, professors and deans against the government's massive budget cuts for education, as well as a slipshod "reform" that does not seriously address the many grave problems within the Italian educational system. The government has simply ignored any attempt for a constructive confrontation on the issues. It resorts to cosmetic acts such as appropriating some features of the movement's proposals without recognizing them as a concession. The Minister of Public Instruction, Mariastella Gelmini, comes off as not having the physique du role as she cancels public appointments in continuation, bans reporters from her rare appearances, dismisses the students as a "few thousand" and asserts that Obama is her inspiration- a remark loudly protested to in parliament by the Lega Nord. Evidently she is a busy person.

The most disquieting aspect of the student movement and Berlusconi's exercise of power in these times is the possibility of violence. The student movement does all that is possible to avoid provocation just as the police forces have generally shown restraint. On the contrary the government and its sympathizers would like to polarize the situation. In the past weeks verbal and physical violence, especially by the extreme right wing militants, has heavily conditioned the atmosphere. Recently a squad of fascists invaded and occupied the state television studios of a popular program that had broadcasted damning footage of the fascist assault against children in Piazza Navona. Several days later a reporter for the left state channel RAI 3 was menaced. All this occurred after repeated smears and menaces against state television by Berlusconi and his prominent mouthpieces which culminated today (November 13) in the unprecedented action by the majority to vote their own TV Authority, a position that always goes to the opposition for the obvious reason of conflicts of interest.  

It is perhaps of minor importance the letter written by the ex-president of the Republic, Francesco Cossiga, to the chief of police, Antonio Manganelli last November 7th. Cossiga is well known for his lunatic behaviour and outrageous opinions, his venerable old age as a cocktail of Lady Macbeth and the Mad Hatter. It hardly overshadows his past as one of the murkier characters of the first republic. His letter can be seen as a deliberate provocation or simply a tongue-in-cheek warning of events to come which unconfessed he may sorely wish:

[…] un'efficace politica dell'ordine pubblico deve basarsi su un vasto consenso popolare, e il consenso si forma sulla paura, non verso le forze di polizia, ma verso i manifestanti. A mio avviso, dato che un lancio di bottiglie contro le forze di polizia, insulti rivolti a poliziotti e carabinieri, a loro madri, figlie e sorelle, l'occupazione di stazioni ferroviarie, qualche automobile bruciata non è cosa poi tanto grave, il mio consiglio è che in attesa di tempi peggiori, che certamente verranno, Lei disponga che al minimo cenno di violenze di questo tipo, le forze di polizia si ritirino, in modo che qualche commerciante, qualche proprietario di automobili, e anche qualche passante, meglio se donna, vecchio o bambino, siano danneggiati, […][…] an efficacious policy of public order must be based on mass popular consent, and consent is formed with fear, not towards the police forces, but towards the demonstrators. Given that throwing a bottle against the police or insults against the police, the /carabinieri/, their mothers, daughters and sister or the occupation of a train station or a car set on fire is not in my opinion all that critical, my advice to you [Chief of Police]- as we await darker days which will certainly come- would be to withdraw forces at the first signs of violence so that some shop owner, car owner and even a passer-by, better if woman, old or child, be damaged […] during these demonstrations, and fear of demonstrators grows in the common man, and with fear, hate for them and those behind them […]
L'ideale sarebbe che di queste manifestazioni fosse vittima un passante, meglio come ho già detto un vecchio, una donna o un bambino, rimanendo ferito da qualche colpo di arma da fuoco sparato dai dimostranti: basterebbe una ferita lieve, ma meglio sarebbe se fosse grave, ma senza pericolo per la vita. […] io aspetterei ancora un po’ adottando straordinarie misure di protezione nei confronti delle sedi di organizzazioni di sinistra. E solo dopo che la situazione si aggravasse e colonne di studenti con militanti dei centri sociali, al canto di Bella ciao, devastassero strade, negozi, infrastrutture pubbliche e aggredissero forze di polizia in tenuta ordinaria e non antisommossa e ferissero qualcuno di loro, anche uccidendolo, farei intervenire massicciamente e pesantemente le forze dell'ordine contro i manifestanti, ma senza arrestare nessuno. The ideal would be that there be a victim of these demonstrations, someone passing by, as I said better if old, woman, or child, wounded by a firearm used by a demonstrator: it need only be a light wound, but better yet if it were grave without being life-threatening. […] I would then wait a little longer, adopting exceptional measures of protection for the headquarters of leftwing organizations. And only after the situation precipitates and columns of students together with militants from the social centers to the tune of /Bella Ciao/ devastate streets, shops, public infrastructures and attack cops on routine duty, wounding one of them, even killing one, then I would intervene massively and heavily with the forces of order against the demonstrators, but without arresting anyone.

Cossiga's letter may be read in light of the sentences handed down this evening (November 13) against the police for their conduct in the Diaz School in Genova on July 21st, 2001, during the G8 meeting. Human rights were suspended in Europe that evening as the police illegally detained, brutalized and tortured the demonstrators who had gathered there to rest and socialize. The BBC aired footage the other day of police officers in the act of planting Molotov cocktails within the building so as to fabricate just cause for their assault.

The judges did not recognize the responsibility of the commanding officers and only punished individual unlawful acts of single policemen. Despite the fact that Italy has signed protocols against torture, there is as of now no law against it. Aggravated assault makes do where torture should be the crime. Thanks to Prodi's execrable indulgence law, the guilty verdicts will carry no prison time nor hardly a mark on careers. Many of these policemen have since been promoted- democratically by either the left or the right, whichever in power.

The sentences were greeted with disappointment. Italy has once again missed a chance of public reconciliation, as is its habit. That perhaps is the force of many a state that derives its power from a common man, a common man who lives in fear, then hate, without shame or praise, just as Cossiga and the many like him so sorely wish.

I'll be posting on the mass demonstration today when possible. There are two demonstrations planned, one that leaves the University La Sapienza and another that starts at the Bocca della Verità, both in the early morning.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Fri Nov 14th, 2008 at 01:41:48 AM EST
thanks for the synopsis, de G.

my hope is that in this era of phone cameras and the like, plus the long experience of infiltrations and provocative actions by hired thugs, there will be little or no chance for the right to use their old tricks, that is not easily and immediately recognisable as such by the students and forces of law.

i also hope the sentences against those involved with genoa might dissuade cops from joining or abetting similar right wings tactics.

the students presently hold the moral high ground in the public eye, and if they continue to be very careful to not take the bait of violence, and diligent about snapping many pics of any jiggery-pokery that ensues, technology can be useful. a citizen's arrest of any infiltrators and subsequent demasking of identity and causal chain would be helpful to keep the situation honest.

the universities are on the side of the students, as are the public, as are i suspect many police, whose children go to those same universities, and who also understand the concept of ladders to social advancement being kicked to the ground by a government that is determined to dumb down the populus for its own nefarious advantage, ahime.

fantastic reporting, please continue to keep us posted! -viva l'onda-

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Nov 14th, 2008 at 04:34:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, as always, for your work. I await your notes with anticipation
Tired. Sounds incredibly clumsy, but is heartfelt.

Capitalism searches out the darkest corners of human potential, and mainlines them.
by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 12:54:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Me again.

I continue to be perplexed by this question:  What more has to happen for the rest of the world to notice this Onda?  Must the government fall?  Must someone die first?  The mainstream media isn't covering it - that should perhaps not surprise, but where are the progressive blogs, etc.?  What the hell?  

Here in America we are obsessing about whether Senate Democrats punish Joe Lieberman or not.  And whether Sarah Palin helped or hurt John McCain.  And this wave isn't even known a little?  Give me a break!

Just did my new routine of running La Repubblica through the Google translator again.  Looks like today was once again a major day.  Big demos in Rome, even some events by Italian students in other countries.

This cannot continue to go on in isolation.  It needs to become known.  Wish I knew how ...

by sTiVo on Fri Nov 14th, 2008 at 08:07:19 PM EST
Consider that you might summarize what you learn and tell us about it.
I would be glad to read your impressions.

Capitalism searches out the darkest corners of human potential, and mainlines them.
by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 12:51:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Cossiga is indeed a world class dingbat, fit to serve as a Bush white house strategist, --or perhaps a consultant to Michael Ledeen. Or vice versa.

Capitalism searches out the darkest corners of human potential, and mainlines them.
by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 01:00:59 AM EST
In my earlier post on this topic I expressed my frustration with the fact that this Onda is getting so little of the world's attention.  

To those who don't know who I am, I am a 55-year old American who was a tourist in Italy last month for the first time who saw some of these things first hand and posted a little compendium of my photos of them online.  I am also, as you might guess, a person of the left, of some undefined sort.  Not very active anymore but I have always retained some kind of hope that things would change.  

Quite well I remember from back in the seventies an admiration for the powerful (but never quite powerful enough) Italian left which seemed then to be in so much better shape than our tattered ragtag band.  For a time it looked like the Italians might SUCCESSFULLY steer a course between the American model and the Soviet model.  But that dream died.

When I saw these manifestaziones first hand, I tried to talk to some of the participants.  I wanted to understand more, but the langugage barrier was too high for me to get much understanding.  I would "read" the Italian papers, picking out a word here and there, and learned that the event was nationwide, and growing.  I continue to do so relying on the frustrating Google Translator to translate for me.

Since returning to the States, I've been amazed and annoyed to see that this event receives NO coverage in the media.  Truly, it seems that the bar is that the government would have to fall or someone would have to die for the mainstream media to notice.

But how about the "left blogosphere"?  I have made a few attempts there, and it's not much different. A couple of people noticed, and moved on.  Granted, until last week, we were consumed with our elections, but it should be different now.  However there is still way too much attention paid to post-mortems of how McCain lost, why Obama won, who's getting what post in the administration, etc. and not enough to world events.  

Still, I think there are some powerful lessons here.  How did a movement as powerful as this one, still have so little influence over the government?  How did Italy ever let Berlusconi back in?   Can we get a little more understanding of just what this educational "reform" portends that has gotten so many off their duffs and into streets?  What is its relation or non-relation to the political parties?  And if the government does crack down, L'Onda will need outside support.

But I have decided that I am not the one to write this.  I just don't know enough.  I have many questions, few answers.

deGondi:  You are on the ground.  You probably have much of the information that I seek.  If you don't, I am guessing you know others who do.  Would you consent to write a somewhat lengthy piece explaining l'Onda to Americans?  I am aware of some smaller leftish blogs that would publish it and I think I have enough contacts that I could help get its attention raised.  
The one I am thinking of for starters is openleft.com. Once its attention got raised there, some of the larger sites would pick it up too (if you go to the larger sites such as daily kos or tpm first, you will drown), and from there, there is  possibly even a path to some of the newly existing liberal outposts in the mainstream media as well.  I would also be willing to look at intermediate drafts with the eyes of an American and indicate what needed more explanation.

I think it's worth a try.  What do you think?

by sTiVo on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 08:06:19 AM EST
I am not deGondi, but I think it sounds like a great idea.

Have you read deGondi's previous piece? It is more of an explaning kind and gives some of the background.

European Tribune - L'Onda

The Wave hits Italy. The number of students that converge on Rome is beyond expectations. The demonstrations are so vast that they spill over the city. There are no longer two processions as authorized by authorities but three since the official itineraries cannot hold the crowds of people. Numerous rivulets break off into the side streets and flow down towards Piazza del Popolo. Buses are blocked outside the city and the students and teachers began to march along the beltway. One of the most impressive marches flows towards the Minister of "Public Instruction" (si fa per dire).

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 11:12:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As you point out, there will be coverage when violence occurs. The movement is doing everything possible to avoid that. And the police under Manganelli are doing their part even to the point of letting groups of demonstrators through police barricades yesterday to protest peacefully before the centres of power. I had noted that the police have not controlled side streets during demonstrations and constantly parlay with student representatives. I suspect that the police deliberately "looked the other way" after negotiating to let some demonstrators through. In fact police presence has been remarkable for its absence and restraint here in Rome. When the demonstrators were in Piazza Venezia yesterday, they policed themselves by setting up their own barrier to dissuade students to go towards the seats of power (Senate, Parliament, Palazzo Chigi).

All in all it was a beautiful mass demonstration that was both exuberant and disciplined. It (as well as the entire movement) was very far from the innumerable demonstrations I have participated in over the decades in which the police are invariably perceived as antagonists or enemies, and often satisfied that role.

Many of the demonstrations throughout Italy are remarkable for their inventiveness, as if the famous '68 slogan "L'imagination au poivoir" were no longer a slogan but a reality. Other than lessons in town squares for the public- and I think it would be marvellous if renowned professors throughout the world would come give lessons here, or do as the Italian professors are doing with their own student body in solidarity- I am struck by the quick humour. After a government representative thundered haughtily against research being carried out on the donkey of Mount Amiato, the noble donkey of Mount Amiato was paraded through Pisa with all the significance that entails. They were of course spiritually accompanied by drosophila flies or the molds of  Vincenzo Tiberio, the man who discovered penicillin in 1895.

As university students are second to none in the art of hacking, government sites are constantly under attack, the most recent being the site of the Minister of Public Education which you may still see. A new minister, Anna Adamolo, presents herself as a myriad of young students, each with her own grave problem caused either by the piecemeal reforms of the "previous" minister Gelmini or the lack of real reform long overdue.

But beyond actual events which always can be folded up into a cute newsbyte there remains the difficulty of actually explaining the issues. It implies a lengthy introduction to the problems of reform in Italy as well as the behaviour of recent governments, above all the rightwing, on the matter. In terms of "maximum systems" there is the problem of education throughout the world and the transformation of institutes of learning into profit-oriented companies that manufacture job-specific workers.

I would like to signal a fairly mediocre article just published in The Economist.

As for the student movement network, Uniriot is the best all around site for up-to-date information- other than the excellent Repubblica site. The Uniriot site does have a multilingual national appeal which I will reproduce in full in their English version below since it is difficult to link to.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 06:31:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
National Call, Rome, 22.10.2008

To the faculties in mobilization, to the undergraduate and Ph.D. students, and to all the precarious researchers

"We won't pay for your crisis", this is the slogan with which a few weeks ago we started our protest at the university of La Sapienza, Rome. A simple, yet at the same time immediate, slogan: the global crisis is the crisis of capitalism itself, of the financial and real estate speculation, of a system without rules or rights, of unscrupulous companies and managers. The burden of this crisis can't fall on the educational system - from the school to the university - on the health system or generally on taxpayers. Our slogan has become famous, spreading by word of mouth, from town to town. From the students to the precarious workers, from the working to the research worlds, nobody wants to pay for the crisis, nobody wants to nationalize the losses, whereas for years the wealth has been distributed among few, very few people.

And it is exactly the contagion that has been produced in these weeks, the multiplication of the mobilizations in the schools, in the universities, and in the cities that should have stirred up a lot of fear. It is well known that a fearful dog bites; similarly, the reaction of President Berlusconi was immediate: "police against who occupy universities and schools", "we will get rid of violence in our Country". Only yesterday Berlusconi declared that he was willing to increase the financial support to the banks and that the State and the public expense would stand surety for the companies' loans: in a few words, cutbacks to education, less founds for the students, cutbacks to the health system, but public money for the companies, for the banks and the private sector.
We are wondering where is violence: is it a violence to occupy universities and schools or instead that of a government who imposes the Law 133 to cutback the founds for the education system refusing the parliamentary debate? Is it the dissent violent or is it violent who intends to put it down by the police?

Who is violent: who mobilizes for the public status of university and schools or who wants to sell them for a few private profits? Violence is on Berlusconi government's side, while in the occupied schools and universities there is the great joy and indignation of who fights for his own future, or who doesn't accept to be put in the corner or forced to be silent. We don't want stay in silence in the corner, of who wants to be free.

They tell us that we are only able to say no, that we don't have any proposal. There is nothing more false: the occupations and the meetings of these days are really building up a new university, a university made of knowledge, as well as of sociality, of learning, but also of information, and consciousness. Studying is very important for us: and it is exactly for this reason that we think that the protests are necessary: we are occupying so that the public university can endure, to continue to study and do research. There are a lot of things that have to be changed both in the universities and in the schools, but one thing is certain: the change can't pass through these cutbacks. Changing the university means increasing founds, to sustain the research, to qualify the educational processes and to guarantee mobility (from study to research, and from research to teaching).The cutbacks mean just one thing: transforming the public universities in private foundations, decreeing the end of the public university.

The design and its tools are clear: Law 133 was approved in august, and against the protests of dozens of thousands of students they claim the police. This government wants to wreck democracy, through the fear, through the terror. But today, from La Sapienza in mobilization and from the occupied faculties, we want to say that we have no fear and we won't step back. On the contrary, our intention is to make the government retreat: we won't stop struggling before Law 133 and the Gelmini decree will be withdrawn! This time we will proceed till the very end, we don't want lose, we don't want submit to this arrogance. For this reason we ask all faculties of the Country to do the same: they want to repress the occupations, so that a thousand of faculties occupy!

Moreover, after the extraordinary success of the general strike on October 17th, we think that is the right time to give an unitary and coordinated answer in our cities. We suggest two national dates: a day of mobilization on Friday November 7th, with demonstrations spread all over the cities; a huge national demonstration of the educational world, from university to School, on November 14th in Rome,  the day the unions proclaimed the general strike of the university; a day to be built from the bottom and in which the central figures have to be the students, researchers and teachers in mobilization. At the same time we think that it is useful to cross, with our forms and claims, the general strike of the school proclaimed by the unions on Thursday October 30th.

What is happening in these days tells us of a powerful, extraordinary and rich mobilization. A new wave, an anomalous wave that doesn't want stop and that rather wants to win. We have to increase this wave and the will to struggle. They want us idiots and resigned, but we are cleavers and in movement and our wave will go far!

From the occupied faculties of the La Sapienza, from the University in mobilization, Rome.

L'onda anomala non si fermerà!
Scritto da Uniriot Network
giovedì 23 ottobre 2008
Ultimo aggiornamento ( giovedì 23 ottobre 2008 )

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 06:39:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks deGondi.  I especially liked the uniriot site, although I'm not so crazy about the name.  Seems self-trivializing in a way, but maybe it has a different connotation in Italian.

You were overly kind to the Economist piece, I think.  On the one hand, someone in the Establishment has finally deigned to notice l'Onda, on the other, what a pack of neoliberal silliness.  "Those crazy students, can't they see that the Berlusconi-Gelmini reforms are absolutely necessary?"  Gimme a break, Economist.  How about interviewing some of them?

By the way, this is quite similar to American discourse.  Even our wonderful new President has made his support of "merit pay" as opposed to tenure in education one of his issues.  Just this past week featured another in an interminable series of articles - this one in the New York Times - praising those administrators who buck teachers' unions and try to kill tenure.  Yet the counter-arguments of the teachers are never dealt with by tenure's opponents.  At least the Times today published three articulate letters by teachers who disagreed with them.

On the question of publicity, true, there is much that needs to be explained to foreign audiences, but if the students are, as you say, commendably seeking to avoid violence at all costs (learning a great lesson from my generation's mistakes), and violence is what gets publicity, then not reaching out means accepting no publicity until violence does occur, at which point it will be too late to do l'Onda any good.  But I'm not underestimating the difficulty of producing such analysis.  Hopefully someone is doing it.

But maybe, with the Economist noticing, others will notice as well, and a better grade of articles will start to appear.

by sTiVo on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 07:14:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I responded to the Economist's article.
by sTiVo on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 08:34:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Excellent comment.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 at 12:26:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Beyond the real, pressing problem of school reform, aspects of the international frameworks of the movement- or rather, the more ideological framework- have been addressed on the Edufactory site which is an international forum in English. The Rome based Uniriot network has an article dated February 18, on the "autonomous university as a common process."

As for the "occupied" site of the Minister of Public Education it is worth visiting just for the introductive video- and do so before it goes down.

The video ends with three sentences:

Anna Adamolo è la varietà dell'intelligenza del movimento.

Anna Adamolo è la scuola che si autoriforma.

Anna Adamolo è l'onda anomala.

Anna Adamolo is the variety of intelligence within the movement.

Anna Adamolo is the school that reforms itself.

Anna Adamolo è l'onda anomola.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 07:50:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Cool video, with well-chosen Pink Floyd score... Quite imaginative hackers.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 03:06:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
European Tribune - Somber Thoughts on Mass Demonstrations
It is perhaps of minor importance the letter written by the ex-president of the Republic, Francesco Cossiga, to the chief of police, Antonio Manganelli last November 7th.

The link leads to:


Pagina non trovata

La pagina desiderata non è più presente su questo sito.

I a do not know much italian, but I can recognise "page not found" when I see it.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 11:16:06 AM EST
The link to the daily l'Unità is no longer available. I chose l'Unità as a source because Cossiga heavily insulted the daily in his letter. L'Unità replied. A pdf version of the the episode is available in the Archive (click "Archivio"). Once in the Archive click on the calender the 9th of November. Once you have downloaded that edition go to page 9 where you will find both the article and Unità's reply.

Another link is at la Repubblica.

The news service Adnkronos also has a nearly complete version of the letter.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 at 04:57:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There's a little bit in English on the demonstrations in an editorial in Nature:
It took violent street demonstrations to force the Italian government to backtrack on its proposal to enact -- hot on the heels of a hefty budget cut -- a major reform of the nation's universities through decree. Last week, education and research minister Mariastella Gelmini agreed instead to put her planned reform through normal legislative procedures, which, unlike a decree, will involve parliamentary debates and, hopefully, consultation with the universities.
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 03:14:56 AM EST
Precisely. There has been very little violence and none on the students' part. Students that occupied train rails have been dispersed by the police. The students have suffered violence but have never been the cause of violence.

The violence in Piazza Navona was due to a fascist assault on the students followed by an intervention of the police.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 05:14:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Beyond the tasteless remark on violence, the Nature article is correct in its presentation and evaluation of the situation. It's precisely the sort of change the students and the universities are seeking while this government has another plan on mind. The MIT example is right on queue: concorsi be damned.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Nov 17th, 2008 at 05:22:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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