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Repeating myself

by Colman Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 06:15:26 AM EST

I notice that a a strawman "Capitalism", used without definition. is becoming increasingly unpopular around here. There are lots of economic set-ups that qualify as "Capitalism" - in the sense of "an economic system in which the production and distribution of goods depend on invested private capital and profit taking" (as per the OED) - and the currently ascendent version, which we'll call it Finance Capitalism - in which a capitalist system is run primarily for the benefit of financiers, is by no means a necessary evil.

The mechanisms involved in Capitalism - competition, free-markets, etc - are good tools for finding solutions to certain classes of production and distribution under the economic constraints that are in place but the solutions they will provide are determined by the constraints under which they find themselves. Left with minimal constraints, as preached by a certain class of free-market priest, the problem that the Capitalist system will solve is how to maximise the wealth of the Capitalists without regard for any costs imposed on others.

It is the job of governments, on behalf of their constituents, to set the constraints under which the tools of Capitalism work and to deal with the problems which aren't amenable to solution with those tools - not to mention ameliorating the undesirable consequences of the tools themselves.


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Given that pushers financiers control the drug money supply, and will always have the most power in any capitalist system, and that governments can always be bought or lobbied, is it realistic to expect governments to hold on to regulatory power?

Or will it always and inevitably be eroded in favour of the financiers?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 06:24:59 AM EST
That's the problem: how to get an out of balance system back into some sort of balance and how to rearrange it so it stays there. How do you build a just and dynamically stable - not sure that's the right phrase -  system? One that when it's given a push tends to right itself.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 06:39:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Put company tax at 6 % on income - no deductions. Raise VAT on everything except food to 25%. Strictly limit personal income spread - from the lowest paid to the highest paid - at 1:50. Anything above is taxed 100%.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 07:20:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you are missing one of the key issues which is IMHO the existence of the untaxed privilege of exclusive use of "Commons" such as Land and Knowledge.

There is a massive difference between "earned" income and "rentier" income deriving from "wealth" in private ownership.

A simple tax on land rental values (and similarly on intellectual property) is to all intents and purposes unavoidable, and is quite capable of forming a major component of a rational taxation/public expenditure structure, if one must have a "State" at all (which I doubt).

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 08:41:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My apologies - I was about to add land when the phone rang ;-)

I see the 1:50 rule applying to all personal income from whatever source. I can find no moral justification, whether based on talent, education or anything else, as to why anyone should earn more than 50 times that of another.

Biut I am being provocative: your ideas are actually feasible.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 09:13:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If two people are actually accomplishing anything whatsoever, I've never seen anyone produce more value than 5X the other.

paul spencer
by paul spencer (paulgspencer@gmail.com) on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 03:35:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well sure. I only chose 1:50 because that is roughly the relation in Finland (average bottom 10% v average top 10%). Where the optimal differential is, I don't know.

But another interesting idea would be to have the lowest paid in any organization annually decide on the future salary of the 'supervisors' above them, and so on up the organization. Let's say that they can decide between +5 and - 5% on present salary/wage for those immediately above them. Over time, I am sure that this would change the entire metabolism of the organization. If it were possible to test this, I think we would end up with the correct salary differential for my original proposal.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 04:55:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
is that I think the streetsweepers job is just as important as the mayor's.  To me the supervisor's job is easier than the supervisee's, so maybe the pay ratio should go the other way.

paul spencer
by paul spencer (paulgspencer@gmail.com) on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 06:08:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You need a hierarchy of regulation enforcers and places for negotiation of some sort.  
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 09:44:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Government is what the participants make of it.

paul spencer
by paul spencer (paulgspencer@gmail.com) on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 03:35:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
See my reply to 1:5

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 04:57:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
  1.  Perhaps it's come up in some of the economics-focused diaries I don't read, but could you provide some examples of how the term "Capitalism" has been irresponsibly used in a serious diary or comment?  I'm just a bit confused, because I find debates about the nuances of systems of economics and governance far outnumber "strawmen" arguments here.  

  2.  For clarification, when I say, "Capitalism," I mean specifically, "the economic incarnation of evil."  

  3.  Ok, seriously, now.  (Apologizes.)  As a layperson, I am concerned with how an ideology which favors private enterprise over collective responsibility and public welfare (which is what I do mean when I use the term "Capitalism") effects our lives (humanity, all of it) negatively or positively, and for me this is a matter of ethics.  

There is a smidgen of strawman argument in the sentence "The mechanisms involved in Capitalism - competition, free-markets, etc - are good tools for finding solutions to certain classes of production and distribution under the economic constraints that are in place but the solutions they will provide are determined by the constraints under which they find themselves."  Firstly, one could just as easy say "The mechanisms involved in torture - fear, psychological manipulation, etc - are good tools for finding solutions to certain classes of perceived social threats under the legal constraints that are in place but the solutions they will provide are determined by the constraints under which they find themselves."  What's that?  Torture doesn't have a good track record of getting reliable results?  It places people in situations in which they are stripped of their dignity?  It may lead to death?  Maybe that's just because governments aren't using it responsibly or regulating it enough.  Ok, that's a strawman too.  But analogy is the only way I can make the point.  Do I need to elaborate?  

My problems with this line of reasoning:

  •  The assumption that this system is a just toolbox and without any inherent ideological nature or (perhaps more importantly) function.  That the problems and solutions are practical, not moral in nature.  Purely about supply and demand.
  •  The assumption that the faults of this system are not implicit or unavoidable, but are results of how this ideology is implemented or regulated by governments.  Unless by "constraints under which they find themselves" you mean inherent constraints and not imposed constraints.  That's vague.  
  •  The assumption that we agree on what constitutes a certain problem, solution or constraint.  That we have the same goals and motives.  
  •  The assumption that even if we agree on what constitutes a certain problem, solution or constraint, that there is not a more preferable set of tools to accomplish the same desired outcome.
  •  The assumption that how any of these tools work in theory resemble in any way how they actually work in reality.
  •  The assumption that it is solely governments and not individuals who are responsible "to set the constraints under which the tools of Capitalism work and to deal with the problems which aren't amenable to solution with those tools - not to mention ameliorating the undesirable consequences of the tools themselves." I personally find the implication here counter-intuitive.  Capitalism (private enterprise over collective responsibility and public welfare) is fine so long as governments regulate it and clean up it's mess?  Here in America we call that ... Socialism!  It's "no true Scotsman" for capitalists!  lol.

FWIW, I pretty much agree with your last paragraph, and I suspect most people are truly in more agreement than they image, but get hung up on self-identification and the deeply connotative nature of ideological labels.    

So, really I'm not debating capitalism here, but just the way in which you presented your concern.  Which, ironically, I think repeats some of same mistakes that are getting under your skin.

I think I just gave myself a migraine, so I'll take this comment off the air.  Thanks. :)

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.

by poemless on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 12:53:43 PM EST
walking around here, either. On the other hand I think that Colman's point is substantive. (No evidence presented, but it's understandable and supportable IMO.)

You bring in ethics and 'evil'. Colman did not. The fact that I agree with you and your response is 'off thread' - however brilliantly written (as usual).

Capitalism is mostly criticized (or derided) on this site for several good reasons. First, from the purely historical viewpoint, here we are. Even if I was a Rockefeller, I would not be happy/satisfied with the current state of the world. Can't really blame the Communists or the "Nobility" for it. Even the local dictators play a minor role. The capitalist plutocracy is driving this thing.

Second, from a theory-of-capitalism viewpoint, the idea is to pull a % return from the use of capital - no limit in time, only 'market limits' on portion size, no regard for extraneous concerns, no regard for the effect of private accumulation on the 'health' of the total system. (If you go back to Adam Smith, there are some constraints; but practice - again - shows more about the loss of those constraints than their use.)

Third - a kind-of strawman, but, again, historical - the accumulation of wealth is in a spiral cycle with concentration of influence. This can apply to any economic system, but here we are at the endpoint (where the past meets the future) of capitalistic hegemony.  C. Wright Mills described this tendency over 50 years ago and predicted the current situation.

For me - I think that capitalism (small c) has a useful niche. It is a reasonable system for deployment of innovation, given a time limit for exclusive exploitation, plus application of regulations concerning environmental impact, health and safety, and such. It is OK - maybe optimal, maybe not - for trade in non-essential items (essential items = food (nutrition), water, health-care, shelter, underwear).

Beyond that, either strong regulation, socialism, or Chris' scheme.

paul spencer

by paul spencer (paulgspencer@gmail.com) on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 04:28:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are ways in which self-organizing systems can be conservative. SOS is a kind of free market. I am coming to the conclusion - for practical business applications - that both a horizontal and a vertical system are needed - intertwined at some level. Like my Dutch cops recognizing SOS as the way they create flexibility, speed and robustness with former colleagues in other jurisdictions, by bypassing the hierarchy in which they work.

In nature there are both packs and flocks. And they co-inhabit in all the space of any ecosystem.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 05:09:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
plus we need something like permanent revolution - not exactly that, but something like a low-O2 detector that says, "Hey, we're approaching a dangerous situation. We need to reconsider the current business model."

paul spencer
by paul spencer (paulgspencer@gmail.com) on Thu Feb 21st, 2008 at 06:05:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Debt-based money, which includes any financial instrument with a return on investment, requires an economy to grow endlessly, and that is not possible.  

The result we are seeing all around us right now--an apparently happy period of material improvement turning to resource depletion and life-support destruction followed by material collapse.  

Capitalism, like a methedrine habit, is pretty much a dead end--going out on the high side.  

This is not exactly new news.  The Greek myth of Erischthon was warning us of this 27 centuries ago.  The pre-Greek civilization that gave us this myth burned out leaving almost no trace.  EVERYTHING was consumed in the catabolism of collapse.  

The most promising path to becoming sustainable is to start thinking the way sustainable people do.  

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 03:33:48 AM EST
Interesting myth, obscure enough myth not to be in the English wikipedia (but it is in other languages)...

Mythology Guide: Erisichthon

Erisichthon was a profane person and a despiser of the gods. On one occasion he presumed to violate with the axe a grove sacred
to Ceres. There stood in this grove a venerable oak, so large that it seemed a wood in itself, its ancient trunk towering aloft, whereon votive garlands were often hung and inscriptions carved expressing the gratitude of suppliants to the nymph of the tree. Often had the Dryads danced round it hand in hand. Its trunk measured fifteen cubits round, and it overtopped the other trees as they overtopped the shrubbery. But for all that, Erisichthon saw no reason why he should spare it, and he ordered his servants to cut it down. When he saw them hesitate, he snatched an axe from one, and thus impiously exclaimed, :"I care not whether it be a tree beloved of the Goddess or not; were it the goddess herself it should come down, if it stood in my way." So saying, he lifted the axe, and the oak seemed to shudder and utter a groan. When the first blow fell upon the trunk, blood flowed from the wound. All the bystanders were horror-struck, and one of them ventured to remonstrate and hold back the fatal axe. Erisichthon with a scornful look, said to him, "Receive the reward of your piety;" and turned against him the weapon which he had held aside from the tree, gashed his body with many wounds, and cut off his head. Then from the midst of the oak came a voice, "I who dwell in this tree am a nymph beloved of Ceres, and dying by your hands, forewarn you that punishment awaits you." He desisted not from his crime, and at last the tree, sundered by repeated blows and drawn by ropes, fell with a crash, and prostrated a great part of the grove in its fall.
Ceres (> cereal) is the Goddess of agriculture. Her punishment is to induce Famine to curse Erisichthon and he ended up eating himself to death.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 05:30:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Both Bullfinch and Edith Hamilton tell this story--Bullffinch clumsily, as is his want, and Hamilton cleanly.  

In these versions Erischthon does not die.  After eating his own body in a ravenous fit of hunger, he remains forever, an endlessly starving head.  

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 06:41:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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