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US vs Europe in 2009

by Jerome a Paris Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 06:40:28 AM EST


A former senior US government official, reacting to some of the sentiments I expressed in a previous essay for the Atlantic Community, said I was too pessimistic in my assessments. Europeans, I was told, always loudly disagree with US proposals but, in the end, whether it be expanding NATO or recognizing an independent Kosovo, will acquiesce to what America insists upon. At the same time, the US can continue to have fundamental disagreements with its European partners over matters such as climate change policy or international law without causing any major damage to the relationship.


With Democrats on the other hand, the expectations are going to be very high, at least on the American side. They're gonna turn towards Europe and expect to be back in the game as if nothing happened. Delusions of American Exceptionalism are very strong and in my opinion resurgent among Democrats. I can already picture Obama flying in European capitals, all proud and shining of his brand new "historical" victory, the "New JFK" and the second coming of Holy Ronald Reagan all rolled in one, and explaining in grand rhetorical flourishes how everything is going to get better thanks to American Leadership (TM). They really believe that shit.


he first paragraph is from Time for Frank Talk on US-EU Relations, by Nikolas K. Gvosdev, Editor-in-Chief of The National Interest, and describes the traditional view of Europe from Washington: that of slightly noisy, but basically good kids, occasionally rude but easy to brign back in line - members of the family, which you head and in whose name you can speak.

The second, less diplomatic one, comes from a comment by Francois in Paris a California-based Frenchman, reflects what is probably the majority view in europe outisde the traditional circles of power. He continues as follows:


With Obama, well, we have a situation. The potential for a complete misunderstanding is pretty phenomenal. His style and the expectations he's setting in his campaign are going to be a big liability in relations with Europe. And then there is this little business with the Senate Foreign Relations Committee's Subcommittee on European Affairs where he just spent the last year broadcasting that he doesn't give a shit about Europe.

There is plenty of nasty business to sort out: the Euro/Dollar relation, the contagion of the US financial meltdown in Europe, military cooperation in Afghanistan, the mess in Iraq (if the US thinks they are going to be able to just walk away ...), global warming, trade with China, oil supply security, Israel, etc., etc., etc.

(...)

But if a Dem is elected, no more forlorn longings of sweet hope. It's show-time. All the shit is going to come out, with a severe misperception of the respective positions. The US is going to need very active help from Europe to clean up the shit. On the other hand, Europe can perfectly do nothing - out of disorganization or out of sheer passive-aggressive spite - and watch the US take the brunt of the crap while keeping the upper hand by default. No European unity is needed. It doesn't even need to be deliberate. All that Europe needs to do to gain relative power and influence against the US and in the world is to sit on its hands. No one will win. But in the mess, Europe will take its lump and still come up on top of a hugely diminished US. A lot of Europeans would be very content with that.

I'm not sure there is anyone who fully understand that last point in Washington DC. They still don't realize that the world has changed and that they don't have the luxury of taking anything for granted anymore. Yet, from what I see with the Democrats, they still waxing lyricals on American Leadership(TM) and the Natural, God Ordained and Self-Evident Goodness of America. After 8 years of Bush, they still don't have a clue and they are supposed to be to the good guys.

I mostly agree with Francois, with the added "bonus" that Europe currently has a number of leaders (starting with Sarkozy and Brown) who are going to be keen to look as perfect little allies and friendly pro-American freedom-loving "reformers", and who will be happy to wax lyrical with Obama and even make spectacular symbolic gestures (such as Sarkozy's intention to come back into NATO). But behind these posturing political leaders, the reality is quite different, both in the general population and, more importantly, in the top and medium levels of each European country's administration.

"Passive-aggressive spite" is likely to be an excellent description of European policy towards the US, as resentment over climate change inaction and international law decredibilisation finally overcomes Europeans' inertia and cowardice in confronting the US. What they could not do, or dared not do against Bush, they will do against the new president if that new president dares ask the Europeans for their unconditional support simply because Bush is gone without taking into account all that's happened in the past few years.

And with the global economy in a tailspin, protectionism is likely to become a major force again, both the simplistic kind (protecting a special interest with the ear of power) or the new kind (preventing imports of carbon-rich goods or labor-standard-evading goods), and Europe and the US will not necessarily be on the same side of these arguments - and trade is the one topic where Europe actually can outmuscle the US.

Some of you might remember my critical diaries on Obama's foreign policy last year (here and here), and my worrying about Obama's focus on strengthening the US military (alongside better bits about stopping torture, closing Guantanamo and listening to allies). Well, I still see the same problem this year: the combination of (i) the argument that the Bush years are over and (ii) the conviction that the US has a natural right to lead the "free world" is going to create a huge conflict of expectations. To be very clear, this is not just a problem with Obama, because this will apply just as well to Clinton or, God forbid, McCain, but it will be worse in a way with Obama for a simple reason: as he embodies change, he will not even actually need to do anything to have a claim to ask for supposedly symmetrical efforts from Europeans: he will just say: 'my election is proof positive that we Americans are ready to listen to our allies again, now you need to move on too and give signs of goodwill in return', and any reticence from Europeans will be used as proof that the problem is European anti-Americanism, not America's past or present behavior. The pressure will be tremendous, and misunderstandings  are bound to come in fast and, with them, and resentment (on both sides).

Francois adds in the discussion:


The US have great assets and, correctly managed, it has all the potential to restore itself as the top superpower by far. It has space, material resources, an extensive infrastructure in poor shape but that can be fixed, a lot of nice left-overs from its industrial glory days, and, above all, it has a great demography, very balanced compared to the rest of the world.

But I don't see the US military "strength" as an asset but rather as a severe liability. It's a parasite on the economy and the government and, by maintaining the illusion of strength, it's a major roadblock obstacle on the USA #1 priority : reconnection with reality.

To a large extent, the US could actually care very little about Europeans, because it does have the internal resources to do something about the current mess, provided that these are marshalled properly. But I don't see that happening, yet, as that would mean renouncing both the international "blessing" that Europe provides (we do lead the world community - see how all the real democracies in Europe support our policies) and the special role of a country pretending to care as much about others as about its own interests.

I expect that Europe's probable dithering and  foot-dragging will justify Washington neglecting and despising further Europe and provide Washington with a ready excuse to blame the rest of the world for its growing woes. And like François, I believe that Europe will be dragged down less than the US by the combination of Iraq, peak oil, climate change and the financial crisis.

And I'd add that Europe also has the internal resources to go it alone, should it ever find the nerve and the leadership to do so. It looks pretty unlikely right now, but a meltdown of the dollar (should the hyperinflation route to reduce the debt burden be chosen) might propel the Europeans in the hotseat almost agianst their will...

In a nutshell, Atlanticism might still have a future if both continents had serious leaders willing to listen to the other side. Unfortunately, I see that on neither side.

Display:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/2/24/10124/7696/702/463068

Might be interesting...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 10:58:37 AM EST
I plastered your dKos thread full of comments.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 03:22:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Some of you may know that I set up a POTUS campaign site last year and populated it with 15 position papers that spell out policy and program. (Most who have read it approve - except Chris Cook, who won't buy the socialist bits.) I changed the preface piece last week, and I wrote the following to a group of old friends ('Ragamuffins' - the collective/staff that published The Rag in Austin, TX back in the late '60s, early '70s):

"I am changing the preface on my campaign web site to reflect an evolving perspective on the 2008 election.  It fits in with David's position quite well.  Part of this change is due to - as David points out - the simple reality of Obama's influence on the potential members of a truly progressive movement.  Whether or not Obama embraces this movement is beside the point.  The current interest - and excitement - is bringing a whole lot of folks with similar  analysis and somewhat-aligned political viewpoints together.  Best to mix and mingle, not to mention proselytize and organize.

"The other part of this is Obama's politics.  If you have been reviewing his campaign web site during the last 6 months, you will have noticed that his policies have 'developed' somewhat.  He wants out of Iraq - large-scale, not just 'combat' troops - by May, 2010.  He supports 'fair trade' as opposed to 'free trade', and he backed that point up by voting against the Peru pact in December (one of only 18 senators to do so).  He supports spending for infrastructure projects and for research on and implementation of renewable energy systems.  He wants the Bush tax breaks for the rich to sunset in 2009.  And he presents a whole bunch of other 'liberal' programs - which is not necessarily a pejorative, merely inadequate to the situation that we face.

"One other substantive thing is the matter of SCOTUS - and other federal - judgeships.  We (all USians) need to have a Democrat making those appointments.  Anyone can see what the current constellation of Bush appointees is doing to undermine every facet of justice, let alone progressive causes.

"Richard and Alan are right to be suspicious and frustrated about the whole election thing.  The point for us is to continue to organize a valid, mature leftist viewpoint.  What strikes me as strange on this list is that almost no member discusses policy or program.  It's almost all about analysis/criticism and Direct Action.  When David or I draft policy or program statements, there is virtually no comment.  Does everyone agree?  If not, what would you like to promote?  Or do the overwhelming majority here not believe that we can actually have an effect?

"Here's my draft regarding changes to my web site:

"Paul Spencer for President in 2011

"I was running for the office of President of the United States of America in the election of 2008. I should say that I was running on a program for an administration to implement, starting in 2009. The success of Barack Obama's campaign for the Democratic Party nomination has changed my strategy.

"It appears that the U.S. electorate is ready to embrace "change" in the 2008 election. For reasons of celebrity, financial backing, style, and organization, Barack is selling his version of "change", largely rhetorical though it may be. However ill-defined his policies and programs may be, there are two very good reasons to support him in this election cycle: 1) His "change" rubric has motivated a majority of the U.S. electorate toward involvement in our election process; 2) Obama has helped to solidify a progressive movement - whether or not he is a practicing member. Due to the manifold failures of the Bush administration, we have the best opportunity to elect nominally progressive politicians at all levels of government that we have seen in my lifetime. Let's `go with the flow', while the motivation/inspirat ion lasts.

"So - why do I write "2011" in the title to this introductory piece? Because Obama is unlikely to grasp the true, dire situation that is developing for us - and for the world. He and his advisers have no plan, other than Keynesian tweaking, minimal new programs, and minor budget revisions. We USians - as discussed below - have experienced two generations of neo-imperial wealth; we are not ready for the coming debacle. Barack's administration will be discredited within three years. The questions will become `who will replace them?' and `on the basis of what program?'

"I have written 15 position papers to explain and justify each element of this (our) program. These papers, then, are my candidacy. For now I will not request or accept money. There will be no signs or commercials or bumper stickers at this stage. Certainly there will be no attack ads - at any time.

"There is, however, an inherent criticism of the major political parties in this campaign. Speaking for myself, I am friendly with Democratic Party, Republican Party, Green Party, Libertarian Party, and assorted other Party members on a local level. At a national level, though, the two major parties are tied to the same societal group: the super-rich and their minions, the upper-level managers of the largest corporations. Differences in tactics between these parties do not help the working classes in this country, not to mention the overwhelming majority of the rest of the world). The super-rich (which should be called the Ruling Class) are predatory, and we are their prey.

"To begin this next-election- focussed process, the following statements are a general analysis with an implied statement of principles, culminating in a program outline:

"One last point - this 2011 business is an actual prediction.  I've been Marxist enough for 45 years to know that this era was coming; but, before the Bush' debacle, I would not have been so bold as to predict this growing catastrophe.  It's coming, folks - best get involved and see what we can make out of this mess - or buy a one-way ticket."

The connection to your piece is that, despite the current excitement and hopeful sense-of-relief over here, many of us are sceptical. More importantly, some of us are trying to build for the likely let-down, if not outrage, that is coming.

paul spencer

by paul spencer (paulgspencer@gmail.com) on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 11:41:42 AM EST
... Peru FTA ... he loudly announced his support, but when it came to a vote, lacking any serious high profile opposition, it was not necessary to turn the word into deed, and he stayed out on the campaign trail instead of coming in for the vote.

And, of course, the other high profile "Absent" in that vote was Senator Clinton, who announced her support for the Peru FTA following Obama.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 08:05:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are correct. Not a good sign, is it.

paul spencer
by paul spencer (paulgspencer@gmail.com) on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 11:42:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... they could both be noisily defending it ... at least they know that they can't noisily defend it and win Ohio, and since the Republicans have never taken the White House without Ohio, that's not nothing.

Its not much, but better than ten years ago.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 01:21:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He did vote "fast track" for Oman (bastion of minimum NAFTA standards?) but NO on CAFTA. Good thing he showed up. That bill was close, but it passed (PL No: 109-053). Now, that was 2005. he had no reason not to be in chambers.

511 changed everything. Check out this clown's NVs from June, 2007 forward. One would imagine he'd have perfected out the vanity MO, given his IL Senate experience -- 750 "sponsored and cosponsored" bills over two years (discovered so far) and key "progressive" votes on ethics, low-income tax credits, AIDs, and racial profiling. LOL

I guarantee these will be the five pillars of his admin. Working it, bebe. He's working it.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 12:57:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
all of the parts of your comment. If it's mostly disparaging, I hope that you can see from my comment that I'm not an Obama enthusiast per se. Call it opportunistic, if you like, but my interest is in the process, which is being energized by his rhetoric and style.

I hear and read and participate in more conversations about policy and program than I've experienced since the late '60s. And the tone is very different - people have opinions that they want to share, but they are willing to hear the counterpoint, too. Of course, this is the Pacific NW, but I live in a rural county that has been a conservative bastion for some years - until about 2006.

One fundamental observation - the majority of the people in the U.S. that I have met over the last 45 years basically understand both class politics and the fact that the 'other side' holds power. That organizing principle still exists.

paul spencer

by paul spencer (paulgspencer@gmail.com) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 01:20:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
oh, Paul, I was only responding to the content of Bruce's comment to amend Obama's trifling record :) I am disparaging of all the candidates! I can understand how fascinating the process is in your neck of the woods. But I think I'll vote for McKinney --if she gets on the MD ballot-- just to be contrary. Don't mind me. My first POTUS election was Mondale/Ferraro. ha.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 07:26:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the pointer to McKinney!

Cynthia McKinney - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hurricane Katrina activism

McKinney has been an advocate for victims of Hurricane Katrina and a critic of the government's response. Over 100,000 evacuees from New Orleans and Mississippi relocated to the Atlanta area, and many have now settled there.

During the Katrina crisis, evacuees were turned away by the Gretna Police when they attempted to cross the Crescent City Connection Bridge between New Orleans and Gretna, Louisiana.[20][21] Rep. McKinney was the only member of Congress to participate in a march across the Crescent City Connection Bridge on November 7, 2005 to protest what had happened on that bridge in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.[22]

In response, McKinney introduced a bill[23] on November 2, 2005, that would temporarily deny federal assistance to the City of Gretna Police Department, the Jefferson Parish Sheriff's Office, and the Crescent City Connection Division Police Department, in the state of Louisiana. The bill was referred to the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security, but was not acted on. However, in August 2006, a grand jury began an investigation of the incident.[24][25]



Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 09:41:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Mmm, that is a start down the long, lonely trail of Ms McKinney's to political end. I myself hadn't paid her any mind until her scandalous tustle with a Capitol police officer and then her style, when in Decemember 2006, she introduced a bill to impeach Messrs. Bush and Cheney. The contradiction, posed by these events, of integrity was sufficient to warrant further um surveillance.

Ms McKinney is far more articulate than her entourage is portrayed by corporate media but no less militating. Sometimes I appreciate a dose of healthy skepticism without the honey.

Here is recent interview (audio/transc.) and  issue PR.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Fri Feb 29th, 2008 at 10:03:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, are you running for Congress in the 2010 cycle?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 05:39:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Several locals want me to run for County Commissioner. We also have some jerks in the state legislature who need a challenge.

Finally, there's 'Bush Dog' Brian Baird in the U.S. House of Representatives. I'm trying to figure out whether his last challenger, Cheryl Crist, is viable. All of the better-known, potential opponents have declined, according to my contacts. If Cheryl does not garner more support, I may jump in.

I have 3 months to decide, but I prefer the County Commissioner role, because I have some very definite ideas for programs. If elected, it doesn't lend much credibility for a POTUS run, does it. (I hope that everyone realizes that the presidential thing is all about advertising the programs.)

paul spencer

by paul spencer (paulgspencer@gmail.com) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 01:40:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I fully agree..! And can even believe that the "time bombs" (the disruptiveness of his acts along with his "pro-USA" stances)  set by the french president will push further a majority of otherwise placid citizens, against the US "umbrella" !

Might be a chance for political europe... :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 11:46:20 AM EST
I've noticed that, often, when Jerome posts a diary at Daily Kos with the message that Europe is unhappy with the US and that the US will have a lot of work to do to regain trust, and further that Europeans are increasingly wanting (and thinking they can very well attain) political/economic/cultural/military independence from the US . . . that Jerome is assured by American Kossaks that this is stupid and Europeans should not feel that way.

I find this to be a bewildering reaction.  Americans still think that stamping their foot and insisting that Europeans shouldn't feel that way has . . . some sort of point or relevence.  

Europe is angry at the US.  This is a fact.  Demanding that it not be a fact is rather infantile.  I suppose changing times will affect American attitudes.  Hopefully for the better, though one can never know.

by RadiumSoda on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 11:59:28 AM EST
many kossacks, like yourself, agree to a good extent with my point, and are willing to argue it out with the skeptics.

But it is certainly true that foreign policy is the one topic where there is a largish number of kossacks in substantive disagreement with me (usually followed by economic policy, where I am seen as a extremist leftist my many). I'll nevertheless note that most of the comments today were substantial, even on the critcial side.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 12:44:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not a kossack, so can't speak for them, but my suspicion is that they are looking to Europe to bolster their position in the US - by providing diplomatic, moral, ideological and intellectual support.  It is thus unhelpful, from their point of view, to suggest that Europe and the US are going their separate ways.

However there is a bigger issue here.  Does the EU even want to be a counter-balancing/competing superpower to the US?  Many Europeans, I suspect, quite like the fact that that the EU isn't a major player on the world stage, and doesn't get involved in all those imperial military entanglements to anything like the extent of the US.

But what I read both Jerome's as saying is that the EU may have little choice but to become a major player in the years ahead - if only due the USA's sheer incompetence, and because of the perilous nature of the economic and political crisis threatening the current world order.

What I find galling is that the US always sees to be the one setting the agenda (Kyoto apart), and the EU is portrayed as being dragged "into the real world" by US leadership.  Thus even opposition to the Iraq war was portrayed in purely negative terms as anti-US sentiment, and not as a different take on how the world order should be run.

What the EU needs to do more and more is to expand its global agenda beyond climate change and peak oil, and embrace a very different position in the world.  e.g. leadership of the world financial system with the Euro, alliances with Latin America/Cuba, and Asia, taking the lead on Darfur, Zimbabwe etc.

Europe needs to get out of Iraq and Afghanistan fast - that is part of the US agenda.   It needs to put its house in order in the Balkins and with respect to rendition flights, data exchange, trade etc.  We do not want to compete with the US on their terms.  We do not want to buy into their debt or hyperinflation.

We've got to prove that we can, at last, stand on our own two feet.  Unfortunately I remain unconvinced that the EU is ready for such a role.  It will require a really big world crisis to force it to grow up quick and fast, because it ca no longer rely on the US to even pretend to act in its joint interest.  If the Blair poodling episode didn't teach us that, I wonder what will?

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 06:31:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We do not want to compete with the US on their terms.

Great quote(able line)!

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 03:36:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I hate to say it, but I have to agree with Frank.

Unfortunately I remain unconvinced that the EU is ready for such a role.  It will require a really big world crisis to force it to grow up quick and fast, because it ca no longer rely on the US to even pretend to act in its joint interest.  If the Blair poodling episode didn't teach us that, I wonder what will?

It's going to take a big crisis, because it's only a crisis that will stir the electorates (who have lots of other things on their political mind, notably domestic economics issues) to force changes of direction and personnel in a European foreign policy elite who are largely knee-jerk Atlanticists.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 07:15:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Metatone:
I hate to say it, but I have to agree with Frank.

And what's wrong with that?  :-)

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 08:28:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
C'mon. EU central bank are trying. Contravening US Treasury recommendations is like playing with moist matches.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 01:02:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is tremendous ignorance here in the states, a vast ignorance that is nearly impermeable.  Many of us despair ever setting our house aright-to the extent that nations ever get set aright-given the need to act on so many different fronts at once and none of the necessary actions are supported by the corporations that are in control.

I firmly believe that the US and Europe share a common fate, and that what happens here is important, though of course not determinative, to what the reality of the European condition becomes over time.  I look for a time of growth here, because I think conditions will get bad enough here that we are forced to think and act.

Its early here and I can't seem to say what I mean, but I think we are tied together in many ways and I hope that my country can regain the respect it has lost-though I do not mean in any sense the historical anomaly of its financial and military position that the vagaries of the 20th century left us in for a brief time, and which we handled poorly.

Only a fool, though there are many of them, thinks we can go along with our money being wasted on the military and both our political parties mired in a fantasy of dominance.  Millions of us detest such a notion, millions.

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson

by NearlyNormal on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 09:55:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think we are tied together in many ways and I hope that my country can regain the respect it has lost

I think it both can and will do that. North America is simply too big a player on the world stage to be shunned and excluded forever. But it is going to take time. Quite possibly a lot more time than any of us would really prefer.

The communication and transportation infrastructure of the 21st century will, I think, lead to a number of major powers with somewhere around half a bn people and up, and covering enough territory to be mostly able to be largely self-sufficient if push comes to shove. That means Europe, North America, South America, Africa, and some constellation of China, India and Russia, although whether they'll be one, two or three poles is, I think, impossible to tell.

If I am right about that, then disregarding the US would be just as suicidal for Europe as disregarding Europe (and South America) currently is for the US.

As an aside, it will be interesting to see whether the US manages to piss off Canada, Mexico and Panama badly enough that they align with Europe and/or Russia and South America...

"Interesting," that is, for those of us who do not have to live with the fallout...

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 07:50:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I expect that Europe's probable dithering and  foot-dragging will justify Washington neglecting and despising further Europe and provide Washington with a ready excuse to blame the rest of the world for its growing woes.

I have already noticed a certain resentment coming from the other side of the Atlantic at European reluctance. Not just from people like secretary Gates, but where suggestions, even here on ET, of "American Exceptionalism" are matched by retorts of "European Arrogance or Superiority". A feeling that we are complicit in american misdeeds, but happy for them to take the blame. I can sympathise with that a little, but not completely. Who is more to blame ? The fool or the fool who follows him ?

But that doesn't deny the principal thrust of your argument, which I understand to be that with a more sympathetic President, misunderstandings could result in worse relations than currently exist. I still feel that our elites are far too subserviently Atlanticist for serious problems to arise, but I accept that, perversely, the risk is higher.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 12:32:06 PM EST
One point to note is that while the US left is keen to ensure that we remember that they are not altogether responsible for what the Bush White House did, they do not quite extend that courtesy to those Europeans that have been critical of their own governments for a long time...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 12:52:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There's a lot of truth to that.  I completely agree.  I'd say this, though: Your country's reputation has been creeping upward over here, and it, stangely, has nothing to do with Sarkozy (who isn't really spoken of anymore).  I notice ol' Mittster's Frog-bashing started out as an applause line in GOP debates, but eventually the press had finally had enough and began mocking him.  "Yeah, Mitt, those stupid French, not going along with our genius invasion of Iraq.  What a bunch of pussies."  It's been quite enjoyable.

So you may not get credit for criticizing yourleaders, but the big decision -- big among those relevant to us -- seems to be getting y'all an increasingly large slice of credit for not being, you know, a bunch of idiots.  The French health care system's successes (among those of other countries) seem to be slowly seeping into the national dialog, too, I've noticed.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 02:11:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the U.S. left by the DailyKos inputs. There are lots of other progressive (or left-wing, if you prefer) bloggers, comment contributors, and 'just folks' who: 1) do not identify Europeans with their current political bosses; and 2) speak well of various examples of European government policies and programs - especially socialistic, environmental, and anti-imperialist policies.

DKos is the big center of the U.S. blogging world. As such, there are reasons for hostile groups to try to 'mix things up' via various techniques of misrepresentation or misdirection. Paranoid? Maybe, but as we used to say before COINTELPRO was publicized - it's not really paranoia, if someone is actually out to get you.

The point is that, some comments are - in my opinion - designed to give or to reenforce some impression. Then they can become an uncritically-accepted commonplace by repetition. The good news is that many bloggers and blog commenters do not let much get by them. The better news is that many commenters demand evidence.

paul spencer

by paul spencer (paulgspencer@gmail.com) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 02:06:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

it's not really paranoia, if someone is actually out to get you.

The two better ones, IMHO, are:
"Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you."
and
"The question is not if you are paranoid. The question is: Are you paranoid enough?"
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 03:08:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Europe from Washington: that of slightly noisy, but basically good kids, occasionally rude but easy to bring back in line - members of the family, which you head and in whose name you can speak.

Well, I think that it is time for Europeans to grow the up hell and get Daddy Washington out of their house! When one grows up they make decisions on their own, decide what their views and life actions will be. It is time for Europeans to think for themselves, as well as defend themselves.

The above is what could be called "Americans" in European positions of power in both the European level and national capitals. They make American interests their own interests without consideration as to what damage it could do politically and makes them and Europe look like silly hypocrites.

Good examples of this are the CIA renditions and the Kosovo "independence." On the cue from Daddy Washington major European power clamored to "recognize" the "republic of Kosovo" with out thinking of the long-term  and short term consequences. We also saw this in the revelation that the US was meddling with the EU presidency of Slovenia. What other European Community structures is the United States also meddling in?

The notions of "European values" defined as human rights and rule of law, and the like, get tossed out the window when Daddy Washington snaps his fingers. After the CIA renditions' revelation, Europe could have championed human rights by vigorously perusing those responsible, including their own.

Also, I like the notions that Europe claims as its "values." The problem here in America is that the idea of a "welfare state" has been demonized. When in Europe, I don't mind paying the high taxes on things if it translates into less crime by providing a vigorous social safety net. The idea of "addressing social exclusion" is something that is really need here in America. I like the idea (for all its imperfections) of the social market idea. Europe's elites do show some level of concern for unemployment and the social-welfare of their people.

Its a bit off topic, but my gut feeling is that American meddling around the world as well as in Europe somehow prevents the global spread of what is described above as a more responsible social-economic system for average "little guy" than that we have here in America.

I get the feeling that if Europe could be loosed from the American bondage - the international system would be quite a bit more interesting...

by euamerican on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 04:22:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Your use of the term "european" here falls in to the exact trap that Jerome describes in his reply : That just as the US liberal/left is largely innocent of supporting Bush, and so are we of supporting our compromised elites.

The elites, here and in the US, are a self-perpetuating group with interests entirely separate and indeed contrary to those of the electorate. We are invited once every 5 years to make a choice between two chromatically indivisible shades of grey, the rest of the time we are invited to STFU and not make trouble. Our travel is monitored, our transactions reported and our freedoms constrained...for our own protection naturally.

Exactly when did I get the choices you present ?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 04:31:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
American society is crafted for the benefit of the super rich. The American government itself cares little about the welfare of the "little guy." Since the super rich have (unfair) access to government the policy preferences are created with them in mind.

For all their flaws, Europe's leaders appear to be concern with their own people. Beside the health care and college education, there are social inclusion policies and social committees and employment policies that would not be tolerated here in America by especially the conservative parrots in talk radio. When they use the phrase "we want tax cuts" this means yet more undermining of schools, higher education and, of course, social welfare.  

Even with its flaws, Europe will leave the US in the dust, eventually, and I hope that its does, especially after the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty. If the Department of Education is eliminated and public education is defunded, America will resemble even more a "third world" nation than it does now.

It has been my impression that "Europe" is about building a future for all of its people, not just those that make $150,000 (101,122 euro)a year...

I don't vote in elections anymore, as it does no good. When the circus came here to Wisconsin last Tuesday, I treated it as a normal day. The exception was having to unplug my phone because of the annoying "robo calls."

by euamerican on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 08:58:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It has been my impression that "Europe" is about building a future for all of its people, not just those that make $150,000 (101,122 euro)a year...

That's certainly the vision we share here at Eurotrib. It is a saddening coincidence that, just at the moment the neoliberal experiment has destroyed its host nation's economy, a large group of neoliberal sympathisers have reached influential positions with the EU and its principal constituent nations. So it is hard to imagine that we will not follow the US down the path of dismantling those very things we consider important parts of the Common Civic structure that would otherwise give Europe a natural advantage in the difficult times to come.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 09:09:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
First of all, I will never claim that any social-economic system is perfect. There is no utopia and all models have flaws.

However, the social market economic system appears to be a better system for human beings than the American-style laissez faire.

The result of the excesses of the laissez faire, which appears to include Social Darwinism, are a mean, cruel and dehumanizing society for many Americans. Since poor, the underclass and workers of menial labor jobs are viewed as "losers," there is more concern for "winners" or the rich.

This notion that some Americans like to boast that "Americans are more productive than the rest of the world" is utter rubbish and indicative of the acceptence of the inhumanity of the laissez faire system.

The real question these people that boast about so-called "American productivity" don't want to answer is: "What are the long-term social, health and life quality effects of working 5 days a week, 12 hours a day and only a two week vacation a year?"

by euamerican on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 11:19:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the Americans are completely unfair. It is not only what Jerome said, that we do not root in the same way for our country and gov as many Americans do, but the govs are verbally protesting and then follow for the sake of the partnership. There is nothing hypocritical with it, and verbally protesting is real oppostition.
A long time EU govs thought, that following on some issues against what they really think would be best, improves the partnership and makes the US lending them an ear.
But the way you describe the kossacs impression of Europe, compromising seems for them to be only hypocracy. The idea of "The cleverer give in" doesn't seem to be very widespread in the US. And they don't realise that there is enormous inertia in our political system, which the US political system completely lacks.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 05:09:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, at this stage, I don't think giving in is clever anymore. Governments had sufficient time to learn that they don't get any ear. Especially if observing Tony Bliar's 'successes' as first poodle.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 05:35:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I absolutely agree. It is completely naïve - and useless as there is no foreign policy consesus in the US. So whenever the administration changes any old agreements are worth nothing.
But then one has to get rid of the idea, that it is only the evil Bush administration as well, as lots of bad policy is backed by a majority. This believe the electorate in the US is principally on our side, the US can clean up the evil political administration and so on, is in my opinion wrong, and is one of the reasons EU govs don't want to break with the US people. But what I just said is usually assumed to be antiamerican. By definition it seems a broad majority in the US can't be wrong.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 05:49:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I can tell you the EU Commission's "US Desk" is not happy at all with our governments. But they, through the HRCFSP, and not the Commission, run the foreign policy.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 05:31:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Martin:
And they don't realise that there is enormous inertia in our political system, which the US political system completely lacks.

Could you elaborate on what you mean with inertia?
I'm under the impression that changing the direction in the US political system is even harder than in many European countries.

by generic on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 08:40:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think at all that changing direction in the US political system is hard. If you look on the record of FDR, he has made the US from an extremely unequal society to a nearly socialistic society with very low unequality with the laws in his time as president. Most presidents after him have reduced the social state.
On foreign policy GHWB, Clinton and GWB had three completely different approaches (It is reported that GHWB refuses to speak about politics at all with his son). It is a general tendency which goes down to financing of scientific programs, that the US often changes its policy strongly if there is a new president. There is only a very small reliability that a new president feels bound to promises given by a former president.

I'm not aware of such dramatic changes through democratic process in the post WW II in Europe, and if it was in some countries, it still doesn't mean, that such a change happens in all 27 EU countries at the same time, and as proven in the last years, if some countries get unwilling to do something which needs European coordination (like changing Europe's relationship with the US) in another country a new gov is elected, which is willing to go the old path.

Especially with regard to the relationship with the US, in Germany and in many eastern European countries, the pro-US people often argue, we have to be thankful for what the US has done in the past to us. People who disagree are called ungrateful or even some kind of neurotic. But this gratefulness clearly is some form of capital which the US has, which erodes. And once it is eroded, it is difficult to rebuild it.

And there is a tendency in Europe to go along for some time with an unsatisfactioning policy for the sake of good relationships. If the US really ignores opposition of Europe until there is coordinated action in Europe undermining the US-EU relationships, it will be much too late to reverse such a process.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 09:16:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One more thing is, that many European countries have an election system, where parties have to build coalitions to form a gov. That makes it more improbable, that suddenly a formerly 45% minority with completely different ideas wins the majority and implements huge changes. We have more a consensus based democracy, not so much a the winner takes it democracy.

And as the US was in the 50s more socialistic than e.g. Germany and today is much more the opposite, it is as well a sign of strong change, maybe not in the direction you want, but nonetheless strong change.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 09:21:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't deny that there were fast changes in the past. But that hardly is an exclusive feature of the US. At the time FDR was president Germany was a fascist state.
There are many factors that guarantee some kind of continuity in the US system even though their system is "winner takes all".
Sitting senators and members of the House have an enormous advantage over challengers.
Appointments for the Supreme Court are for life and have an enormous influence of the direction of future policy.

All of the above can be found in varying degrees in most European countries. What leads me to believe that the US has even more political inertia is the closed nature of the US system. In the last decades Green parties entered  most European parliaments. Consequently environmental policy has become part of most party platforms. In the US nothing comparable happened.
The need for coalition building is not necessarily a slowdown of the political process. Most ideas are first held by a minority that is significantly smaller than 45%. But if a bigger party needs a coalition partner those minority ideas have to be taken into account.

Finally I don't agree that the last three presidents had completely different foreign policies. All of them acquired new bases, treated compliance with international law as optional and pushed for economic deregulation around the world.

by generic on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 10:34:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But the transition from fascist state to democracy was not inside the normal political framework. Today no revolution is near in Europe and I don't think in the US as well. The EU constrains dramatic changes even more.
And even the infiltration of new ideas through the greens is a smooth process going over time. There are no 180 degree changes with one election.
In the US supreme court it seems there are factions. If one side gets one more appointment a lot of positions can change completely around. A lot in the US depends on one person, the president, while in Europe party delegates have more say over politics. As well it seems to me, that US politics is much more polarised than typical EU country politics.
The US system allows easier jumps, while the European system is smoother. That doesn't mean the European system is sclerotic. It just means that it takes some more elections on different levels (some things which in the US can be done on the federal level are influenced by 4 levels in Germany) until the new ideas have found their way to be fully implemented.
I like this reliability much more than the jumpy US system.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 11:12:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure most European system are smoother while the US one is rather jumpy. But that doesn't translate to the US system changing faster. It just means that an enormous pressure has to be built up before there is any noticeable change. This change then comes as a jump. In Europe the threshold is often lower.
by generic on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 11:54:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This change then comes as a jump

Or not -- it can also be just a media frenzy without an actual jump, with things foundering and the media turning to another issue. (See how Clinton failed to change healthcare.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 01:07:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But the transition from fascist state to democracy was not inside the normal political framework.

I think he was talking about the transition to the fascist state.

A lot in the US depends on one person, the president, while in Europe party delegates have more say over politics.

Actually, even with all the focus on the President (especially from abroad), US politics compares somewhat to France under cohabitation. Congress, Senate and President aren't elected the same way, and majorities have often differend historically. The President may have most obvious influence, but what he will even pursue is constrained by expectations of what could pass a hostile Senate or House. Or worse, there is lack of party discipline. As recent example, Clinton governed against Repub majorities for six out of eight years in office, and some of his own Dems played opposition in the preceding two years. Clinton thus permanently appeased the Repubs. Meanwhile, Reagan's rule depended strongly on the so-called "Reagan Democrats", conservative Dems who bucked the party line to support the Hollywood-star-in-office.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 01:13:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On dramatic changes, US vs. Europe, I just see the opposite.

FDR could achieve major changes due to a certain factor that was quite strong: tzhe Great Depression. (The same influence made the Nazi takeover possible in Germany.) Another reason for fast changes in the nineteen-twenties-thirties was the introduction of universal suffrage, which changed the voter body greatly. In Britain, this led to Labour replacing the Liberals as main left-wing party.

On foreign policy, I don't see the policies of GHWB, Clinton and GWB as all that different.

Dubya's neocons were already present in his father's administration, as much as father disagrees with the son, those are only different wings of the same imperialist foreign policy elite. (With Kissinger as a third wing.) Clinton represented a different culture -- in words.

Throughout the Cold War, Democrats let themselves be chased by Repubs on patriotism, and there was a certain continuity of Cold War mentality -- Truman in Korea, CIA interventions throughout, JFK kicked off the Vietnam War which Nixon promised to finish before he escalated it, the scheming of Kissinger was followed upon by the scheming of Brzezinski; and last but not least, the neocon luminaries Perle and Wolfowitz started under the wings of Democrat Senator Henry "Scoop" Jackson.

Clinton didn't start out to create continuity with GHWB, but then was pushed to continue his Iraq policy, Russia policy and I/P coflict management policy (lest we forget, the Oslo process started with GHWB's post-Gulf-War peace congress). Worse: some of Clinton's policies served as a blueprint for Dubya on a much larger scale, such as invasion without UN approval (Kosovo), coalitions of the willing (no-fly zones over Iraq), decapitation attempts (Desert Fox) and war spin (Desert Fox and Kosovo again), foot-dragging on international treaties, bubbles as a means to suck up foreign capital (dotcom boom, hedonic pricing), and economic imperialism (the IMF dictate).

I see the differences more in nuances, in presentation, and in talent. The Beltway Crowd stay the same family.

For some dramatic changes in post-WWII democratic Europe, consider: the British nationalisation drive under the Attlee government, the undoing of that under Thatcher, similar if less dramatic changes hroughout Europe, de Gaulle's Fifth Republic, Willy Brandt's Ostpolitik as deviation from Cold Warrior-ism, Italy's mani pulite and elimination of the old party system.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 01:05:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Wiemar Republic had an extremely powerful president, I'd say much more like todays US system than our current system. One of the goals when framing the constitution of the Bundesrepublik was to write it in a way which would have likely prevented a takeover like Hitler did it. France is indeed more comparable in that sense with the US.
Although some federalism was undone by the grand coalition in the 60s, today with the EU, there is once more a strong power splitting over various levels.
Of course issues, which can be done on one level don't get delayed by that, but many need a lot of people to work together. I think it matters change on what exactly we are discussing. The things which matter for the US are happening here slowly, especially because Europe as a whole has not moved very much when in Italy there is a revolution.
It may well be that GHWB was only better in putting up the illusion of some kind of partnership with Europe, but GWB did not even try that. He just expected slavish following.
A lot of stuff which FDR did was undone without any serious crisis.
Sure the imperialists were always there, but it is quite a way from Dwight D. Eisenhower:
"Preventive war was an invention of Hitler. Frankly, I would not even listen to anyone seriously that came and talked about such a thing."
to advertising a war as a preemptive war, like Bush did it.
There was a 91% marginal income tax. Now its about 35% and still the "left" party does not try to get votes by advocating massive tax increases for the rich.
There were once efforts of international disarmament, now even the "left" candidate is advocating a strengthening of the military.
Patriotism was certainly always an issue in the US, but nowadays Obama is attacked for not wearing a sticker with the US flag.
Once at least verbally individual freedom was held up strongly, now they can officially announce to have done something which US courts once themselves called a war crime, without fearing even impeachment of the president, not to speak of direct prosecution and on daylykos somebody wrote he met a woman going to the Republican primary, saying of course I can not vote for McCain, I'm pro torture, which seems to be the view of quite a number of the GOP base.
Sure one can argue, that not to having expanded the health care program on all people as a lack of change, or one can argue, if there is no steady decreasing in the role of the state, in a society which becomes richer and richer, the state will have more to distribute.
I think the US has moved a lot and todays Europe is more like the so called "great society" of the US then the US is today.

But all that is not even the main point. Inertia means as well once on the move difficult to stop.
There is my personal experience with the US gov in particle physics as flip-floppers compared with the relatively reliable compromising European way of gouverning.
Or think about the unwillingness even from people who say they want to fight climate change, to sign international treaties just for the sake of not being bound.
Or think about just Iraq. It is not even clear that the both democratic candidates would do the same. One person decides about possibly live or death of millions of people or in general different positions on specific foreign policy issues. In Germany it is unthinkable that the foreign policy towards Israel changes much depending on the gov.
Or that the question if torture is OK or not depends on the president and not the supreme court.

You are pretty left and so see always the commons of these people. For me it is pretty frightening to see a political system, where my positions can only be called a "socialistic peacenik".

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 03:17:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What is wrong with being a socialist peacenik?

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 05:53:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It depends on with which positions one is called socialist peacenik.

In general I want federal gov institutions only to do what is really important. That is an economic right position. In principle everybody can claim to be the real political middle and deviations to both sides are equally good or bad, but if I claim the federal gov shall only do the real important things, then if the gov does not fulfill a lot of the things I want it to do, a country is in my opinion in serious trouble, and the gov is playing with the lifes of its citizens. If the gov does more, it may be a little less efficient or set some bad incentives ore reduce freedom a bit, but that isn't such a problem. So in that sense I see an asymmetry, and I can much easier accept people to be economic left to my positions and advocating some more gov than being economic right and abolish essential stuff like health care, welfare or limitations on reasons for wars.
If a country has no programm under which people can get health care, if they contribute everything they can, this is not a legitimate political decision, it is a structural crime. The same accounts for welfare. Certainly European countries as well do not guarantee that never ever somebody can fall through the social safety net, but well a knot can come loose, a wire can rip. But in the US the social safety net nowadays simply is woven in the first place with such big holes, that falling through it is systematical.
I know there is much more charity in the US than in Europe to help the people who are fallen through the safety net, but I can't accept that as excuse. If it is private there is no guarantee you can get it. The gov must provide a minimum standard under which you can't sink (and the gov is much more efficient to adress basic needs than private charity). It is not an acceptable political opinion or political direction not to have such programms. It is a crime.
In a country with some freedom nobody can claim my positions are the only ones which can be accepted as an outcome of an political process (Although sometimes I do this ;-p ). However, I think it is fair to claim to be in a sense close to the acceptable edge of economic or whatever policy in one direction. Therefore I declare myself as a conservative and say far right of my economic beliefs, there is no decent position. Any other political movement has at least to accept that the gov has the duties I just outlined, it can only add more.
Maybe on the "preacenik" front I can accept a bit more warmongering positions than I take. But I think it is more than obvious that the US has broken any line which can be taken as democratic position. In a non-banana republic Bush&Co should fear the supreme court more than the democrats.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 06:50:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I disagree with the premise that the US and Europe can be self sufficient. By this I mean that they have a balance of trade with the rest of the world, not that they don't have any international commerce.

Western Europe and the US have been neo-colonial powers (however you wish to define that) since they became industrialized. This means that they extract more value from the under developed nations than they give back. The current hot topics have to do with non-renewable resources which are undervalued because the externalities are not factored in, and agricultural products.

The American military/government nexus understands this, which is why there continues to be a focus on militarism. An empire can only be sustained by force or intimidation and at some point in the future the poorer nations are not going to be willing to give up their scarce resources willingly.

I don't know what happens to Europe when the pinch comes, right now Europe is getting a free ride on the extortion front. The US does plays the bad cop and Europe the good one, but both get the benefits of unequal trade. Why the US should continue to provide this service in the future is unclear.

There are no signs that Europe is willing to transition to a sustainable economy that wouldn't need coercion with trading partners. A few more wind farms than the US has isn't going to make the difference.

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 02:10:58 PM EST
While serious balance of trade issues still remain for both, Europe is however haltingly more developed in building the sustainable trade with under-developed nations than is the US.  In virtually all fundamental economic issues, Europe has the advantage in building the beginning of a sustainable economy.  The stats for that have been all over ET in the past year.

J's main points are well taken here.  Europe can be found wanting in addressing the inequities based in Anglo Disease, but not without admitting that a much more solid foundation for sustainable global trade has already been built.

Whether the leaders get it is almost beside the point, if the US citizens are willing to let themselves be taken behind the barn for a bit of learning.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 04:35:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And PS.  Francois' comment on the US military expenditure is right on the money.  Until the obscene budget and influence of the out of control military is completely righted and the spigot is turned off, there is no real chance for the US economy.  Period.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 04:40:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
rdf's main point stands, though. The standard of living in the US and western Europe requires tribute from poorer nations that can occur only under the threat of force. That the US military is (dramatically) declining in efficiency in this imperial role is a different topic.

Bill Clinton may be shown by history to be the last US president to have a clue as to how to run an empire.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 06:47:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
sorry, but examination of both EU trade and foreign assistance doesn't show at all that "Europe requires tribute from poorer nations that can only occur under the threat of force."  The EU has already embarked upon another path, at least in comparison to the US.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 02:56:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, tantal from Kongo, Shell in Nigeria, agrarian products dumped in Niger, we still have a couple of very bad policies.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 03:38:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not that optimistic. In my diary Spain is unsustainable from November 11th, 2007, I highlight a report showing that Spain's ecological footprint is 2.6 times its carrying capacity, though the carrying capacity per capita only started to degrade within the last 12 years, and that 48% of its ecological footprint comes from consumer goods, mostly imported. That is, Spain is exporting an ecological footprint of 1.25 times its carrying capacity to the places where our cheap crap is produced (proverbially, China, but we have also started outsourcing our traditional toy and shoe manufacturing industries to other countries such as Morocco).

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 05:27:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But the question was if it works through military might. One can easily abuse corrupt elites in other countries to export footprint without using military.
As well I think it is not completely fair to put the footprint to the consumers and not the producers.

Luxemburg has the biggest gas station in Europe and a very high CO2 emission per capita. A lot of it is from Germans and French driving to Luxemburg to buy gas. Some claim that these emissions should be counted as German or French emissions, not as Luxemberg emissions. But what are France and Germany doing to reduce their emissions? They have high taxes on gas. So who really is responsible for the emissions and who can effectivly reduce them.
The situation will be similar on other issues. If we would have to produce toys, we might do it with a smaller footprint than the one, when it is done today elsewhere with lower environmental protection.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 08:42:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's a very good point. We need a way to split the cost of environmental exploitation between those who buy unnecessary stuff and those who produce stuff under unnecessarily lax environmental standards.

I am not volunteering for coming up with a fair model, though :-P

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Feb 27th, 2008 at 07:01:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Since those comments were in reply to one of my comments, I'd like to point out why I used the military might as an asset.

It's not that it's good for the economy to have so much military spending -in fact, you could halve it without changing my point. But the US are such a debtor nation at the moment while controlling so much of other countries' resources (via corporations, mostly) that, were it a "normal" country, there would be serious threats of those assets being taken back, or at least frozen, barring a radical rebalancing. At the moment, it looks like trillions of dollars may be inflated away.
Imagine if, say, Qatar had a debt to the US worth several trillions dollars, but in Qatari currency. And that they ran their economy to the point where it looked like they would simply devalue tenfold, making the debt rather small. Do you think USA would stand pat? I think there would be some massive pressure going on...

But this won't happen, because it's the US and at the moment there is little credible pressure to be applied. Countries would be reluctant to nationalise local US assets even if Washington went completely wild, partly because in many cases they could be taken back. And that can be done against reasonably powerful countries, as long as the confrontation is on foreign soil: when USA attacked Iraq in 1991 it declared void pretty much all the French contracts with Iraq and replaced them with ones with their own companies. Do you think France could have done that to them?

OK, I know USA wouldn't attack China, but in that case there are other reasons why China won't be too pressing with the debt.

And there is no way that, in the present situation, USA could be forced to actually apply some of the international conventions they have signed, much less those they kept clear of. Do you think the same could be said of any other country?

Anyway, why the level of military spending is a liability, the military might is an asset, that might help during a transition towards a situation where military spending is reduced.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 04:10:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"The current hot topics have to do with non-renewable resources which are undervalued because the externalities are not factored in, and agricultural products."

Can you explain this a bit more? As far as I know e.g. China is polluting the world much stronger than most EU countries and even has a perCapita CO2 emission of the level of France. What externalities are not factored in?
The west is an net exporter of agricultural products and the efficiency can be improved dramatically, when we reduce the amount of meat in our nutrition, which in a sense is no big deal.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 05:30:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't you think China is a bit un-representative for the Third World?

Methinks those high emissions come primarily from/for the semi-first-word party of China, while the rural Central and West and Africa and Southeast Asia and rural India and South and Central America are much lower emitters than in.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 05:38:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was thinking about countries with which we do some physical trade. We may kill Africans and SE Asians and so on, but do we need military for it? Have they any chance to defend themselfes? Do most of them even know that we kill them?
rdf seems to imply some kind of crisis, which has something to do with us being there or demanding them something to do and not just us putting some CO2 in the air (on which the OPEC countries and e.g. Indonesia "colonise" us more than we them).

And if you divide China up, it just means that the non-rural areas are much worse. And China has more population than all subsahara countries together.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 06:08:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
come primarily from/for the semi-first-word party of China

One of my all-time "best" typoes... I meant semi-first-world part of China.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 03:26:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
China does not have a higher CO2 per capita emission than France.

China had per capita emissions of 4.8 tonnes per capita in 2006. France had 6.2 tonnes per capita in 2004.

Also, note this exchange between me and Bruno-Ken on Chinese emissions.

Also, note that carbon dioxide emissions go into a global athmospheric sink that accrues over time (as take-up is slow). China's contribution to the total stock in this sink is still very small. So it can justifiably claim that we have an amount of 'carbon debt' and thereby greater responsibility to act.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 06:56:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"China does not have a higher CO2 per capita emission than France."
I haven't said that. But 2007 per capita emissions then for sure were wel beyond 5. If one looks on the international spread, emissions can be an order of magnitude smaller or nearly an order of magnitude higher.  In that sense the Chinese emissions are on the level of France's.

My question was not meant morally, but more the question what kind of crisis (with taking the real power distribution into account) rdf expected.
An international treaty about CO2 emissions can come and the question here would be, if the west has to constrain it very much. I think the treaty which would be the most strict for the west, which has realistic chances to be the result of negotiations, is the same per capita emissions for everybody in every country signing the treaty, and in general I think such a treaty can be sold as fair to most people (to me at least). The level would most likely not be very much below the average European level (according to the US energy information administration more or less stable about 8), and for sure not if the USA would sign the treaty (stable about 20).
And I'm not even sure how realistic such a treaty is.

The "much more pollution" was not related to CO2, but there is a lot of other pollution in China and in many emerging nations (e.g. in India), which would have any power to negotiate something.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 07:38:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe I should be clearer.
It seems rdf wants to sell me (us), that we need a strong military to threat others so we can keep up our lifestyle which hurts others. I don't buy this.
Therefore I liked an explaination. It may be, but I really want to know, and you can hear pretty often that Europeans are some kind of freeriders on the US military power and don't pay for the benefit we get from the US. I would like to see some evidence for that.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 07:49:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
rdf is a bit behind the time. We have long since moved from a model where we extract resources from the third world for our industrial production. Rather, we have outsourced most production and now only do design, marketing and consumption, along the Larry Summers model.

To what extent this is backed up by military force, I don't know.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 04:50:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just want to keep the record straight with regard to China, as the blame is now often being shifted to it.

A climate change treaty will have to follow a 'contraction and convergence' model towards the same per capita emissions. For the US the baseline should be their commitment under the Kyoto Protocol.

Other kinds of pollution will only indirectly have an international aspect.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 04:27:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I understand that. In the media often relative changes and not per capita, but country numbers are cited, which often gives a very unbalanced picture.

But the 'contraction and convergence' model, is this something which really is on the stage at the top political level or just something some NGOs have invented to make something fair, but without a chance to be actually implemented?

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 08:32:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Contraction and convergence is a matter of climate justice: there is a higher moral principle at stake. Not merely some odd scheme some NGO just thought up.

But yes, there is political backing for the idea.

Contraction and Convergence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contraction & Convergence has the support of key government spokespersons in the Group of African Nations, in India and in China. it is also favored by the European Commission and many other government bodies. In 1998 it was endorsed by the European Parliament. It is supported by many campaigners and groups from George Monbiot and Mayer Hillman to Scientists for Global Responsibility and the Royal Institute of British Architects (RIBA).
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 10:44:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is there a reason, why you are so aggressive or do you just think NGOs suck?
My comment had nothing to do with the valuation of the model, but only with the question of how likely it is the outcome of an international treaty.

The model, as described in wikipedia seems to be even rather bad for developing nations. It seems they are never allowed to pollute more than western countries at any time, while an instant per capita cap with tradable emission rights would immediately start a money flow from the rich to the poorer nations.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 11:35:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm sorry if I seem aggressive. I'm at 60% right now, probably was too easily miffed, because the statement about support was already in the wiki. No harm meant.

Do note that it is perfectly possible to include historical emissions in a contraction and convergence model (just a matter of shifting the object).

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 02:45:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok, I should have read the Wiki article. I found your comments aggressive because you were bowing my comments into a direction I didn't imply or write.

I wouldn't buy into the historical emission thing as well, because I would argue, that the emissions were partially for consume and to another big part used wisely to create the technology which nowadays is used by many developing nations which can develop faster through the technology as they could with same emissions, simply because they have so many people.
In the end what I thought would of course have the same consequences as putting some historic emissions into account, but this would be in the contraction and convergence model one more point one has to negotiate then.

contraction and convergence model, requires negotiations on

  1. time scale how fast the global emissions are reduced (as will any model)
  2. Speed of convergence for any single country, as preconditions are rather different, e.g. the geography or the structure of the economy
  3. Amount of historic emissions which are taken into account, which will be highly controversial, and may as well be negotiated for each single country with industrial history

I think we can go along with just number one. Some things can even cancel each other out, e.g. a longer convergence period with taking more historical emissions into account. Some may the current per capita model is too simplistic, but summa ius, summa iniuria. Sellability is one of the most important properties of any solution.
If some people don't like that one could try to make an appointed date on which one counts population so that shrinking one's population accounts as reduction, but that would introduce just one more issue.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 04:08:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I'd also be opposed to giving countries some kind of benefit for reducing their population (then again, indirectly they do have that under the present system). Negotiations are a matter we unfortunately have to deal with, but with contraction and convergence, we at least have some well-founded principles for that. And on the other hand, we have the science, which tells us to reduce by x percent in y years in order to avoid dangerous warming, which I also think we should stick to. You can quickly get a result from those two or three parameters, and that result is more than a random number you'd negotiate about.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Feb 28th, 2008 at 11:05:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To be more specific: though I disagreed with some points you made, I do not dissaprove of your comments. It's maybe easy to get the wrong impression from the disagreement, but I did uprate some of your comments as I thought they had an interesting angle.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 02:50:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 05:08:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Relative to another thread, notice the changes to emissions flux and growth relative to EU and USA pop.  Point, set match.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 06:21:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What's emission flux?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 06:24:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
of carbon emissions.

Cumul is how many tons were emitted altogether
Growth is the difference between this year's emissions and last year's

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 06:30:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, growth is a smoothed 5-yr average, and flux is current (2004) emissions.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 07:27:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Luckily.. in this kind if stuff you can do pretty good predictions since this stuff is more dependent on strgong fundamentals that on how blows the wind..

basically the US europe dynamics ahs been basically the same int he last decade... and Bush just presented the opportunity for a different Europe... on the political terrain and it did not even happen in this case.

So I doubt Europe4 will do anything political or in Military project which is not exactly waht the SU wants.

ont he other hand, one ocnomi matters, it will really not matter who is the president, we will keep doing the same stuff, which is  forgetting altogether the Us and do whatever the economic power wnats... Us is completely irrelevant ont hat front.

it will mroe interesting to see what happens with those two pesky issues we always are on the fence.. ont he fence on doing soemthing for ourselves and really stick it to the Americans or to just shut up and put up.. and I mean global warming and individual rights.

On global warming we have followed an independent path but never stick it to the americans.. on individual liberties there has been a little bit of tension but we followed the americnas as if it were a political issue.

Any new president will bring new proposals on those two fronts, so it will be interesting to see what europe does.

On the rest.. I am one of those cynics who say.. it really does not matter what POTUS does. We will do whatever she says (or he) in world geopolitics except on economic issues where we will do whatever we want and see fit.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 03:45:35 PM EST
already and it will make the Bush years look like the good old days.
None of the new paradigm is Obama's idea at all but the ideas of his "advisors".

Neither side here is absolutely correct.

http://www.nwotruth.com/brzezinski-seizing-control-over-us-policy-in-slow-motion-coup/

by Lasthorseman on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 07:16:09 PM EST
There are some interesting asides to that agenda:

Obama`s top adviser says does not believe in imposing a peace settlement - Haaretz - Israel News

The attacks on Obama in connection with Israel come in waves. There was the Zbigniew Brzezinski wave, against the former adviser to Jimmy Carter and current Obama supporter. Then came the Rob Malley wave, against the former adviser to Bill Clinton and current Obama supporter. Now the name of the game is Samantha Power. Not that the others have been forgotten; they'll be back, but you need a little variety. And Power, in contrast to Brzezinski and Malley, plays a key role in Obama's campaign. As one of his closest advisers, she is a far more significant target.

...She opens the conversation with a reference to this book, which her critics now quote. [The late Brazilian diplomat with the United Nations, Sergio Vieira de] Mello was in Lebanon in 1982 when Israel started the Lebanon War, and didn't like what he saw. She quotes him, among other things, calling the Israelis "bastards." She says the book depicts its subject's thoughts, not her own. But "the book is now used to attack me."



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 03:54:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The pro-Likud lobby is hard at work corralling Obama in line. Success with Power. The other two are more interesting even if less relevant:

The row over Obama's stance on Israel is a dispute between Jews - Haaretz - Israel News

Malley is one of the few people who believe that the Israeli-American narrative for the reasons that caused the 2000 Camp David Summit to fail does not reflect reality. Clinton and Ehud Barak both agreed that former Palestinian Authority chairman Yasser Arafat was the primary person responsible for those Camp David talks breaking down.

Most members of Clinton's team agree with that statement. Not Malley. He thinks Israel - or Barak - and the U.S. - or Clinton - bear more of the responsibility for failure than they are willing to admit.

...Malley favors dialogue with Hamas, whereas Obama says he opposes it.

...Malley's former associates from Clinton's peace team... In a joint statement... wrote that although they had differences of opinion with Malley - which is an understatement - they found some of what had been written about him to be a "vicious" attack on his character.

As for Brzezinski, the Likudnik howling has a very flimsy base:

As for Brzezinski, Obama's circle is saying he does not advise the candidate about Israel-related issues. But Brzezinski could not have placed such a restriction on himself. A few months ago, he associated himself with a group that is calling for dialogue with Hamas.

Even if he's no big expert of the Middle East, Brzezinski served as Jimmy Carter's advisor. He is suspected of fostering a chilly attitude toward Israel since his days with Carter, as all of the former president's advisors.

Obama's detractors were only too happy to find an article in the New York Sun recently which said Brzezinski went to visit Damascus to head a delegation from the RAND Corporation. The timing of the publication was somewhat embarrassing, as it coincided with the news of the assassination of Imad Mughniyah in Damascus.

But the people who informed the paper of the trip forgot to mention just one small detail: Brzezinski was scheduled to visit Israel, too, and not only Damascus.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 04:04:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I missed Obama's reaction!

Breaking News - JTA, Jewish & Israel News

Obama: Don't equate 'pro-Israel' and 'pro-Likud'

"I think there is a strain within the pro-Israel community that says unless you adopt a unwavering pro-Likud approach to Israel that you're anti-Israel and that can't be the measure of our friendship with Israel," the Illinois senator and contender for the Democratic presidential nominee told a group of Jewish leaders in Cleveland on Sunday. "If we cannot have an honest dialogue about how do we achieve these goals, then we're not going to make progress."

...then again, he was still corralled into line, going into defensive:

Obama explained that he accepted Brzezinski's endorsement, based on shared views on ending the Iraq war, but did not share Brzezinski's critical views of Israel.


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 04:09:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good enough, I guess. Would that he just told them to pack it and stop meddling in US domestic politics.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 04:38:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We know Obama's feelings on this, but it's completely obvious that he can't talk openly about Israel, because the Right would use it against him and call him an antisemite. Even jews get the epithete when they don't toe the likkud line, so what about a black dude?
There's no way around it, he has to pay lip service, and I'm quite optimistic it will turn around once elected. It's one of those things in US politics, just like sucking Jesus's cock, even if you don't like the taste that much, you have to get down on your knees or you don't even get a chance.

A 'centrist' is someone who's neither on the left, nor on the left.
by nicta (nico@altiva․fr) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 09:53:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are blacks considered more antisemitic than whites in the US (yesyes, I know what it sounds like but you know what I mean)?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 12:12:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not that I'm aware of.  

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 12:57:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think there are a couple of things that might drastically change the US-Europe relationship in the next decade.

First, and regardless of who wins the election, the Baby Boomers are just now starting to realize that they have no retirement income, no health insurance, can't afford their car payments but have no mass transporation, etc. So there is likely to be a big focus on domestic issues starting right about now.

Second, the extent to which the military establishment has been damaged by the Iraq adventure is not generally understood. The army is having a really hard time retaining Captains, which are the core of the service. They simply don't want to go on a fourth tour of Iraq leaving their wives and kids home for another year, so they're quitting in droves. There's a substantial incentive program to try to keep them in:
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/01/army_captain_retention_080102w/
Meanwhile, the USAF is literally falling out of the sky. The F-15 air superiority fighter fleet was temporarily grounded recently for age-related problems, and the transport, tankers, and bomber fleet is also very heavily stressed. These babies are expensive ($130M for one F-22 fighter!), and essentially the entire capital equipment of the air force needs to be replaced:
http://www.theday.com/re.aspx?re=f039d947-052d-4a66-8497-f672da5ff9dd
And the Navy is also out of money, partly because of mismanagement and partly because new ships cost so much: $13B for one new aircraft carrier, for example:
http://www.dailypress.com/news/dp-news_defense_0205feb05,0,4789799.story

In addition, the global energy issue is, in my view, going to become a problem before the global climate change problem. Third world demand for oil will cause significant price shocks, and absent a really good colonial setup in the Middle East, the US will have to confront the problem with a domestic supply.

I suspect that the US is about to enter a period of less political meddling with the rest of the world because of pressing domestic problems.

by asdf on Sun Feb 24th, 2008 at 09:05:16 PM EST
that you wrote, except the last line. Not saying that I disagree; just that this is one of the major unknowns ahead. A POTUS has substantial control of the military and of foreign meddling in general. Sometimes, the situation is so dire that the only choice is a last-gasp adventure - witness the Battle of the Bulge. I have some hope that Obama is not a Hitler clone, though.

paul spencer
by paul spencer (paulgspencer@gmail.com) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 02:36:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Rich Man's Michael Moore
Milton Friedman, the famed economist, was equally impatient with Mr. Johnson's questioning. During his on-air interview -- among Mr. Friedman's last before he died -- he accuses Mr. Johnson of advocating socialism and abruptly ends their talk.

There you go, Milton Friedman, the reichwing's icon, is about as subtle and philosophical as Rush Limbaugh.

A 'centrist' is someone who's neither on the left, nor on the left.
by nicta (nico@altiva․fr) on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 09:48:39 AM EST
And this, I suspect, is the real character-behind-the-curtain of ´sweet grandpa Buffett´:

Buffett sent her a letter saying that, while he was proud of Nicole and her achievements,  "...I have not legally or emotionally adopted you as a grandchild, nor have the rest of my family adopted you as a niece or a cousin."

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Mon Feb 25th, 2008 at 02:07:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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