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Countdown to $?? oil (1) - setting the stage

by Jerome a Paris Tue Apr 1st, 2008 at 05:18:16 AM EST

Oil futures are contracts whereby parties commit to buy or sell oil at a pre-agreed price at a given date in the future. The graph shows at what price levels futures traded last Friday, on the first day of this year and a year ago (ie, the most recent futures indicate that markets expect prices to slowly go down from their current level above $100 per barrel to stable prices in the high 90s - and stay there for the next several years: in effect, market are betting on almost constant $100 oil over the foreseeable future).

The most striking thing about these graphs is that markets have no clue whatsoever as to where prices will be in the future. In the past, it used to be simple: whatever the short term price, future prices would be around $20, ie markets expected prices to be stable in the long run, whetever the short term variations. Today, they are in effect still clinging to the same formula, ie that prices will go back to some stable level from where they are today - but given that prices keep on increasing, that target can obviously no longer be $20, and given that they have not been stable at any level in the recent past, they are just taking last month's prices as a "safe" bet.

Which simply means that they have no clue.

As I've been promising for a while to create a new target for the successor of the "Countdown to $100 oil" series, this has left me in a quandary as to what new target to select - if the markets have no idea, it's not that controversial to say anything (well, except if I did end up with a $1000 target, but that would probably be a bet on US hyperinflation than on the oil market, today).

So what are the factors driving oil prices in the near and medium term?

Brought across by afew


  • Supply and demand.

    The main driver behind the price increases of the past few years has been the continued tightness of the market, with demand growing rapidly and supply struggling to keep up - the result being much reduced spare capacity and a much higher sensitivity of the market to any and every disruption (weather events, accidents, incidents, strikes or other).

    Much of the demand has been coming from oil-producing countries themselves, and, as they are booming - and subsidizing domestic energy prices - this is unlikely to change. China and India are also providing major contributions as large swathes of their population reach the income standard where car ownership becomes widespread, and slowing growth would still mean growth... As to the US and Europe, the largest markets, they have largely been stagnant in recent years (having borne most of the impact of higher prices, given how price controls distort demand elsewhere), and even in a recession demand is unlikely to be reduced much, from existing precedent (most of the demand destruction in the 70s was in the power generation sector and by industry). So global demand is likely to keep on growing.

    Supply, on the other hand, is highly uncertain, given the lack of information about decline rates in existing fields. The Oil Megaproject database started by my Oil Drum colleagues suggests that a number of projects are expected online this year and the next, and thus that supply should be able to increase, but there is debate as to whether these new capacities are sufficient to do more than compensate for declining production in mature fields. The fact that Russia, which provided most of the boost in production of the past decade, is now expected to see its production decline this year, is symptomatic of these contradictory trends.

    Even in the optimistic scenario, with increasing overall production and moderate demand growth, market tensions are unlikely to abate. In the medium to longer term, the question of peak oil looms large and will also keep an upwards pressure on oil prices.

  • Investors rushing in the commodity sector

    Speculation has been blamed widely for the high oil price levels - but then again this has been the case since at least 2005. Financial investors have indeed become a lot more present in the oil market, but it's hard to say what their influence has been. They do not appear to be present only on the buying side of the market; and while speculators can accelerate underlying trends, and can sometimes overshoot, they cannot create trends. Oil price increases have objective reasons, as noted above.

    What is true is that commodities are now seen as a haven against inflation and against dollar weakness, and thus increased oil prices reflect dollar weakness as well as pure oil market fundamentals. But that weakness is just as real as the oil demand-supply tensions, and betting on goods that protect oneself against that wekaness is quite rational. Given the still wide trade deficit of the US (which oil price increases continue to boost), and given the expectation of more monetary boosts by the Fed to try to limit the credit crisis and the economic meltdown, inflationary expectations are on the rise, and thus expecting the dollar to go down, and oil to go up is logical, even if not very politic.

  • geopolitical factors

    The other factor influencing oil prices is the "risk premium", ie the fact that potential events in international politics could have a huge impact on the oil market, and that oil prices are therefore boosted by the likelihood that these might happen - and the premium is proportional to the perceived probability of such events and to the expected price impact of the event should it happen.

    With the Bush administration still stuck in Iraq, still tempted by military action against Iran, and still confrontational towards Russia, the premium is high, but might be expected to go down with a new president. However, McCain is as bellicose, if not more, than the current administration, and the odds of him winning have gone up somewhat lately. And even a Democratic president is unlikely to eliminate all Middle East tensions quickly - in fact, a period of withdrawal could easily be an unstable, or at least a very uncertain, one from the oil market's perspective.

All of that suggests that the balance is towards oil prices going higher rather than down, even in the (quite likely) case of a sharp economic downturn in the US. And it also suggests that how the financial crisis plays out will have a strong role in the short term.

Which points towards the logical goal to have in mind: 100 euros. However, as I've been arguing that the oil market would stick to the US dollar for a while, I'l try to be consistent, and propose a new target still expressed in dollars: $200, which should be met at about the same time as the €100 one...

Display:
Countdown to $100 oil (56)- final diary
Countdown to $100 oil (55) - and the winner is...
Countdown to ?100 oil (54): OPEC ready to dump dollar?
Countdown to $100 oil (53) - Saudis happy with $100 oil
Countdown to $100 oil (52) - buying protection
Countdown to $100 oil (51) - we'll never see 100mbd
Countdown to $100 oil (50) - it's no longer 'oil', it's 'liquids'
Countdown to $100 oil (49) - peak oil and libertarians
Countdown to $100 oil (48) - 85, 86, 87, 88, ...
Countdown to $100 oil (47) - Malthus, Mein Kampf and ostriches
Countdown to $100 oil (46) - Malthus, Mein Kampf and ostriches
Countdown to $100 oil (46) - what's a dollar worth?
Countdown to $100 oil (45) - time to bet again (eurotrib)
Countdown to $100 oil (45) - time to bet again (DailyKos)
Countdown to $100 oil (44) - oil industry admits it cannot save us
Countdown to $100 oil (43) - IEA boss denies and confirms peak oil in same breath
Countdown to $100 oil (42) - IEA predicts shortages within 5 years
Countdown to $100 oil (41) - oil more expensive than it appears
Countdown to $100 oil (40) - Undulating plateau
Countdown to $100 oil (39) - BigOil running out of oil
Countdown to $100 oil (38) - Who gets Champagne edition
Countdown to $100 oil (37) - OPEC says peak oil (and $100 oil) is near
Countdown to $100 oil (36) - Free game! win champagne! no risk! (eurotrib)
Countdown to $100 oil (36) - Free game! win champagne! no risk! (DailyKos)
Countdown to $100 oil (35) - peak oil: the last skeptics capitulate (CERA)
Countdown to $100 oil (34) - Oil major CEO calls for demand reduction
Countdown to $100 oil (33) - Below zero
Countdown to $100 oil (32) - peak oil is, like, so over. Not!
Countdown to $100 oil (31) - $15 oil? The cornucopians are fighting back
Countdown to $100 oil (30) - senior politico fears looming oil wars
Countdown to $100 oil (29) - Alaska joins axis of evil (unreliable oil suppliers)
Countdown to $100 oil (28) - New records suggest more to come
Countdown to $100 oil (27) - 'Mission Accomplished' - High oil prices are here to stay
Countdown to $100 oil (26) - Time to bet again (eurotrib)
Countdown to $100 oil (26) - Time to bet again (dKos)
Countdown to $100 oil (25) - Iran vows that oil prices will not go down
Countdown to $100 oil (24) - What markets are telling us about future energy prices
Countdown to $100 oil (23) - Running out of natural gas in North America
Countdown to 100$ oil (22) - gas shortages in the UK - 240$/boe
Countdown to $100 oil (21A) - The 4 biggest oil fields in the world are in decline *
Countdown to 100$ oil (21bis) - long term vs short term worries (dKos)
Countdown to 100$ oil (21) - 8-page extravaganza in the Independent: 'we're doomed'
Countdown to 100$ oil (20) - Meteor Blades is Da Man in 2005
Countdown to 100$ oil (19) - Your bets for 2006 (Eurotrib)
Countdown to 100$ oil (19) - Your bets for 2006 (DailyKos)
Countdown to 100$ oil (18) - OPEC happy with oil above 50$
Countdown to 100$ oil (17) - Does it matter politically? A naked appeal for your support
Countdown to 100$ oil (16) - We'll know on Monday
Countdown to 100$ oil (15) - the impact on your electricity bill
Countdown to 100$ oil (14) - Greenspan acknoweldges peak oil
Countdown to 100$ oil (13) - Katrina strikes / refinery crisis
Countdown to 100$ oil (12) - Al-Qaeda, oil and Asian financial centers
Countdown to 100$ oil (11) - it's Greenspan's fault!
Countdown to 100$ oil (10) - Simmons says 300$ soon - and more
Countdown to 100$ oil (9) - I am taking bets (eurotrib)
Countdown to 100$ oil (9) - I am taking bets (dKos)
Countdown to 100$ oil (8) - just raw data
Countdown to 100$ oil (7) - a smart solution: the bike
Countdown to 100$ oil (6) - and the loser is ... Africa
Countdown to 100$ oil (5) - OPEC inexorably raises floor price
Countdown to 100$ oil (4) - WSJ wingnuts vs China
Countdown to 100$ oil (3) - industry is beginning to suffer
Countdown to 100$ oil (2) - the views of the elites on peak oil
Countdown to 100$ oil (1) (eurotrib)
Countdown to 100$ oil (1) (dKos)
* added to the series after the fact

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Mar 30th, 2008 at 07:01:12 PM EST
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/3/30/182228/847/844/487334

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Mar 30th, 2008 at 07:11:42 PM EST
... diary roll at the Daily Kos.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Mar 30th, 2008 at 08:01:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the US dollar to continue its decline to a point where $2=€1, is that really representing a significant increase in "real" terms (obviously it's an increase over the current price)?  To the degree that the nominal price of oil remains factored in dollars, a decline to a $2/€1 ratio would itself cause much of that rise.  But is that genuinely meaningful outside the U.S. if the relative price in the local currency changes much less?  Rather than representing a 90%+ increase over the current price, for Europeans, it would instead be less than a 50% increase (assuming a current exchange rate of $1.578=€1.00 and an oil price of $105.62 based on Friday's market close in New York, making the current price €66.92).

I'm not saying that the new target isn't a worthwhile one on which to focus, but that if we're really interested in tracking the "true" price of oil (and not currency fluctuations), use of either a market basket of currencies or a fixed historical exchange rate would better serve the project.

by The Maven on Sun Mar 30th, 2008 at 08:01:42 PM EST
... fundamental input like crude oil is a significant change. Especially when that involves passing the previous high water mark and therefore entering uncharted territory.

Indeed, given that "Countdown to €100 Oil" was originally presented as one alternative for the next "Oil Countdown" series, if you reckon that the US$ will likely be €0.50 when we get there, its just translating that Countdown into terms suitable for the inside-the-US-media-bubble Daily Kos.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Mar 31st, 2008 at 02:51:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
$100/euro!

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Mar 30th, 2008 at 08:43:45 PM EST
Given that Oil is a finite resource you are bound to be right sooner or later.  The real question is how soon the €100 price target will be met.  5 years seems a reasonable medium term target, or had you a much quicker increase in mind?  

Its hard not to see even current price levels as a significant barrier to consumption growth - particularly in poorer countries - and so the current price could contain an element of overshoot.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sun Mar 30th, 2008 at 10:46:38 PM EST
On the other hand it is not difficult to think up geopolitical scenarios that could make things a lot worse really fast. Political collapse in Saudi Arabia being one easy-to-envision example...
by asdf on Sun Mar 30th, 2008 at 11:39:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually what is worrying me more right now is the sudden uptick in the price of staple carbohydrates like wheat and rice.

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...
by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Mon Mar 31st, 2008 at 01:45:23 AM EST
Rice prices have doubled since January, when the grain traded at about $380 a tonne, boosted by strong Asian, Middle Eastern and African demand.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Mar 31st, 2008 at 02:50:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The wheat price rises last year were brought about by lousy harvests across many areas and crappy transport logistics in the Mid-West USA where the harvest was excellent. I really can't see either happening again to such an extent.

It is also an encouraging factor that Russian & Ukranian wheat growing areas south and east of Moscow are being brought back into production after years of abandonment and neglect. this is not just because of the rise in prices, which will continue, but also because an awful lot of agro-corporates are seeing the premiums available for land across the world are buying up land cheaply wherever they can get it and being brought into production. I know that farms in Bulgaria, which a couple of years ago were being practically given away, are now commanding very good prices. This is especially so from Britain where there are a large number of trained farm managers unable to earn a preferred living willing to up sticks and develop these new prairie farms.

Rice is a different problem more related to water shortages. I'd suggest that we will see activity to address this issue in SW Africa before too long.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Mar 31st, 2008 at 06:19:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're not wrong about demand leading corporates and others to bring land back under the plough, but don't forget with Bulgaria the entry into the EU and (potential, even if not enormous) farm subsidies.

When the CAP changed in the '90s from product-price subsidies to land surface subsidies, the price of eligible land shot up.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Mar 31st, 2008 at 06:30:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The stuff about Russian and Ukrainian farmland is very interesting. The soil is still excellent, and with modern methods not only can production be radically improved, but so can the soil which will then be beyond excellent.

Some people who saw where the wind was blowing is the Swedish Lundin billionaire family, of Lundin Petroleum (financing The Association for the Study of Peak Oil and Gas, ASPO) and Lundin Mining fame. They have started the company Black Earth Farming which is investing in exactly this line of business.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Mon Mar 31st, 2008 at 09:51:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... if anything, even if the drought ends up not being as severe this year, I would expect a long term secular trend toward converting former marginal wheat land back to cattle and other pasture, just from changes that are going to be hammered out in terms of water allocation.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Mar 31st, 2008 at 02:55:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
there are genuine problems with expressing costs in US dollars as price movements in oil are as likely to reflect weakness in the currency as to say anything useful about the commodity.

Maybe you could have that $200/bl marker as your headline, but express a percentage price rise against the euro from the current price. that way we'd be able to see what part is due to the oil rise and what part is due to the dollar's fall

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Mar 31st, 2008 at 06:33:42 AM EST
I agree, Helen. Jerôme's new bet contains two components that should be tracked separately. They are both extremely interesting in their own rights, for one thing.

The $US100 benchmark was numerologicaly interesting, and I guess there are irrational processes in the market that make round numbers like that more meaningful than they should be. But I don't see any new magic numbers on the horizon. Perhaps we should try something different.

I propose an "objective" means to set the next level would be to ask: what proportional increase in world prices would be necessary, other things being equal, to bring US pump prices to mean levels now paid in Europe? That price could then be denominated in Euro's, with a side-bet, as it were, on the rate of fall of the dollar. Jerôme has already stated a position on that rate...2$/E by the time of 100E Oil.

by PIGL (stevec@boreal.gmail@com) on Mon Mar 31st, 2008 at 08:07:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's basically the point I was trying to make -- inelegantly -- in my comment above.  The built-in assumption here that the dollar will continue its decline until it reaches $2=€1 should be factored out of the equation, even if a barrel of oil is still generally priced in dollars.  Given a further decline by the dollar of that magnitude, it is folly to think that the market wouldn't build that in to any current reported price.

If the dollar were to fall to that level, the price of oil could well move to $140/bbl yet remain essentially unchanged in terms or euros.  Under these conditions, then, has there really been a price increase?  In the U.S., most certainly, but for much of the rest of the world, no.

by The Maven on Mon Mar 31st, 2008 at 10:17:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, maven. I thought your point was plenty elegant, I just restated it hastily. The new thing in my post was a suggestion as to a meaningful new benchmark...in particular one that would measure the distance between the prices perceived by one enormous pool of consumers(Americans) and the prices now actually paid by another (Europeans). I expect something along those lines could be developed by more knowledgeable people such as Jerôme and/or The Oil Drummers.
by PIGL (stevec@boreal.gmail@com) on Mon Mar 31st, 2008 at 10:58:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One of the more interesting consequences we  should explore are the break points at which certain types of economy no longer function with the "cheap transport" paradigm.

This came home to me quite strongly in Bulgaria where I realised that, with wages so low and the economy so weak, that the oil price wouldn't have to go much higher before it began to have real consequences for distribution of goods.

Now it doens't matter quite as much for Bulgaria where local sourcing is the norm. Also those sections of society who do have cars and use them extensively will be immune for quite a while yet.

But that is surely less true of more developed parts of europe, it will just kick in much later. Britain taxes fuel pretty aggressively  and so can probably hold prices steady for quite a while if the Tresury is willing to shift tax burdens accordingly (unlikely). But I'm wondering at what point the current transport prctices of moving goods hundreds of miles between warehouses unnecessarily ceases to work, and what might replace it.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Mar 31st, 2008 at 08:39:39 AM EST
Well, as the vas majority of freight costs, or at least fuel costs, are on the last leg of the transport (trucking from the port), we should see increasing price differences on goods sold close to ports and goods railroad stations compared to goods sold far away from them.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Mar 31st, 2008 at 09:44:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The predictable outcomes are:

  1. Rationing

  2. A thriving black market supported and partly managed by organised crime

  3. Very big changes in the business landscape. Business ecologies outside of affluent shopping areas will move to staples. Luxury non-essential goods will become far more expensive and limited to more select geographical areas.

  4. Much more DIY gardening. However - small-holdings are very hard to police, so expect plenty of petty theft from smallholdings, and a new industry specialising in security products for them.

  5. General economic contraction as trade and business grind to a halt and many jobs become surplus to requirements.

  6. A wave of mortgage foreclosures followed by squatting - some of which will be by people in their own homes.

All of this starts happening very soon. Any steady climb beyond $100 is going to kick it off - first in the peripheral Euro economies and blighted US areas, and as prices climb over $200 in the central ones.

We'll probably never get to $400/bl because by then demand will be so low that the price will be drifting downwards.

The choice is staying here and watching things decay slowly, or moving to South America. The oil-rich countries are likely to stay robust for longer, but have a 50:50 chance of being invaded and robbed by the US.

It's a race between US disintegration and US acquisitiveness.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Mar 31st, 2008 at 12:23:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that's based on the idea that there will be no transport. That's not true, there will be railways and what we will see will be governments falling over themselves to provide them. After all, mass transport existed before roads and will exist after them. It was just slower

Outside of the South East the restoration of Beeching routes will be straightforward. In France, they're still there if not maintained. Germany the same.

In Eastern europe it will be more difficult cos the railways fell apart after WWII as the Soviet period has no interest in encouraging mass transport. It's one of the reasons why I feel that the EU is wrong to promote motorways in areas that don't have them cos there will be a far better payback for investment in railways, especially in those countries that have lousy provision to start with.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Mar 31st, 2008 at 01:15:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In Eastern europe it will be more difficult cos the railways fell apart after WWII as the Soviet period has no interest in encouraging mass transport.

Nope. We maintained a higher share of railway traffic, and more extensive branchlines for long, even if from less money, and mass transit was definitely encouraged -- up until the sixties or so. The rot started then, and was greatly enhanced after the end of what was called 'communism'. (Even in East Germany. Unfortunately what you say about abandoned lines in Germany is not true, only the second big wave  of closures was later than in Britain.)

But I entirely agree that the EU's promotion of highways here, and our local elites, technocrat experts (sidesweep at François) are totally wrong in promoting investment in highways reaching Western European levels, rather than in keeping railways and bringing them to Western technology and comfort levels.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Mar 31st, 2008 at 02:02:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't know about Hungary but Poland desperately needs a basic highway network. We came out of communism with virtually no highways at all (less than 100 km covering most of the distance between Krakow and Katowice plus a few unmaintained skull rattling segments left over from Germany's thirties era program). It's all very nice saying that they won't be needed in thirty years. Perhaps, but in the meantime people still have to live.

I'm not talking about the extensive Western style web but just a basic set of arteries - at a minimum one north south route (Gdansk-Warsaw-Krakow) and two East West ones (Berlin-Poznan-Warsaw-border and Dresden-Wroclaw-Katowice-Krakow-Przemysl-Lviv), plus a few spurs)

My message to Western European greens who make this argument - we'll stop building them the moment you  shut yours down.

by MarekNYC on Mon Mar 31st, 2008 at 02:19:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Poland desperately needs a basic highway network.

Who and what for?

I know exactly what you mean. Hungary's highway netwrok consisted of four badly maintained stubs in 1989. The build-up of highways contributed significantly to a great shift of cargo from rail to road, also of passengers from buses and trains to private cars. Proponents in the ecnomy see them as economic stimulus (because only lorries can transport stuff...), and private drivers just enjoy whizzling along (where the alternative they are exposed to is a public transport that is steadily depreciating). But noise, gaseous, fine particle emissions are growing, oil consumption too, solely highway-accessible commercial and housing projects are spreading on the landscape (often taking good arable land or green areas near cities) and the desertion of the countryside didn't exactly stop.

So, I'm all for calling on Western Greens to dump their cars and call on dismantling highways for fairness, but I think we here are repeating the West's mistakes out of shortsightedness.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Mar 31st, 2008 at 02:53:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why - because all the negative developments you mention happen without highways, only worse. All those emisssions - think how much nicer they would be if they were taking place in small and medium town centers, with the cars and trucks puttering along so they can emit more than they would on the highways. Ditto for suburban sprawl - is that strip mall or subdivision any better because it's by a major two lane road rather than a highway?

You don't get any positives from a lack of highways, rather the reverse. Plus I think convenience matters - being able to travel to places is nice, and mass transit networks are great within cities or between major centers, much less so otherwise. (Which is why I actually don't think we're ever going to get rid of cars - they're an extremely useful invention. Unless that is you're planning on a future where there is basically no population outside extremely dense Manhattan style urban areas - the rest just heavily mechanized mega farms and wilderness. That's going a bit far for even as devoted a fan of urban living as me.)

by MarekNYC on Mon Mar 31st, 2008 at 03:11:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... highway? Is subsidizing the highway equivalent to cross-subsidizing the shopping strip?

Probably, yes.

The framing of the issue as whether or not to have highways is, of course, a frame that is biased to give the yes answer. Frame the question in terms of should we put the effort into building the highways or the equivalent effort into building dedicated transport corridors for public transport, the answer is no longer so automatic.

And, yes, in the early 1900's you could go from one small city to a small village to a next small city in Ohio via interurbans without requiring either horse-drawn or horseless carriage. The idea that cars are required for life in small towns is just an ahistorical projection of current institutions.

Indeed, one of the major elements that interfere with recreating that in the US is the heavy subsidy of the auto-over-all system.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Mar 31st, 2008 at 03:50:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, the framing... see the aborted second part of my comment now posted below.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 1st, 2008 at 04:34:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
think how much nicer they would be if they were taking place in small and medium town centers

This is a common misconception. They do continue to happen there, except it's less transit traffic and more the increased local traffic. The problem is worse in major towns, where the increased highway traffic feeds into main roads whose capacity can't be increased beyond a certain limit (houses can't be demolished that easily for extra lanes), leading to increased traffic jams.

is that strip mall or subdivision any better because it's by a major two lane road rather than a highway?

Yes, because at least mass transport by bus is more likely to happen, and the development is more likely to be at least on the edge of town rather than metastasing in the middle of previously green areas. But I agree that sprawl is a broader problem than to be caused by highways only.

mass transit networks are great within cities or between major centers, much less so otherwise.

Less so is relative, and not a constant -- which is kind of my point, with current policy enhancing the convenience of car-based travel and reducing that of especially countryside mass transit.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 1st, 2008 at 04:29:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They do continue to happen there, except it's less transit traffic and more the increased local traffic.

I shall mention for me this is both theory and practical experience. The city I live in now was along a busy main road, got a bypass a decade ago, but main street now has busy and noisy traffic all day again. The only plus is less trucks. Meanwhile, it's not like the new road doesn't affect previously main road free residential areas, something unavoidable with population density in Europe...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Apr 1st, 2008 at 04:40:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Continued (I had to cut this short last night)

Meanwhile, consider: while Poland had about 100 km of highways, it had:

  • high-speed railways: 0 km
  • mainlines upgraded to 200 km/h: 0 km
  • trains scheduled to go 160 km/h: 0
  • modern diesel railcars for branchlines: 0
  • low-floor trams: 0
  • climatised railcars: 0

...with minimal change since, except in the last category.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Apr 1st, 2008 at 04:21:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Helen:
I think that's based on the idea that there will be no transport. That's not true, there will be railways and what we will see will be governments falling over themselves to provide them. After all, mass transport existed before roads and will exist after them. It was just slower

Outside of the South East the restoration of Beeching routes will be straightforward. In France, they're still there if not maintained. Germany the same.

Restoration will mostly be impossible. Most of the old routes have housing estates on them somewhere along their length.

Also, there are hardly any intermodal terminals or freight yards left. These would have to be rebuilt at huge expense.

And the UK can't even manage a passenger railway properly. There's no chance at all of creating a huge new passenger and freight network that's any use to anyone.

The EU seems slightly better at this than the UK is, but I think it's more likely that stuff will simply become too expensive or generally not available except in certain regions.

Assuming government competence after decades of evidence of its opposite seems unlikely to me.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Mar 31st, 2008 at 03:50:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I confess I was trying to be optimistic. After all, the alternative is that the UK is seriously up the creek and in the next 50 years half of the population are going to be in deep shit. And whilst I'm cynical and pessimistic, I actually don't want that to happen and it genuinely perturbs me that our political classes are unable to see this as a possible realistic consequence of their current inaction.

This will affect their children. Possibly in their own lifetime.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Mar 31st, 2008 at 04:42:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The most striking thing about these graphs is that markets have no clue whatsoever as to where prices will be in the future.

Amen!

EM hypothesis my ass...

most of the demand destruction in the 70s was in the power generation sector and by industry

There is still plenty, 15 mbpd, to shave off there. Why do you people think the Chinese are building so many coal plants? ;)

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Mar 31st, 2008 at 09:52:48 AM EST
... is not the EM hypothesis itself, but the presumption that the information that we want the markets to incorporate actually exists in the system.

There is a common tendency for traditional marginalist economics to assume the existence of whatever information is required to close the model for analysis, and if you carry those assumptions over as silent baggage along with the EM hypothesis, then there is going to be all sorts of information assumed to be present that simply has not yet been created.

And of course, no matter how efficient a market is, there is some information that a market cannot convey, and that will be stripped out of the efficient market outcome just as much as it will be stripped out of an inefficient market outcome. Markets, for example, are incapable of designing complex systems, and so systems organization information gets stripped out when elements of complex systems are traded in markets.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Mar 31st, 2008 at 03:00:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Most people think that 100 euros is the next target but t will have devastating effect on livelihood of majority of Earth population already suffering from rampant inflation and struggling to meet their ends.

I think current price of oil in Euros should be set as a target - dollar may fall or (less likely) rise but this should be benchmark.

by FarEasterner on Mon Mar 31st, 2008 at 11:21:30 AM EST
Looks like $140/bbl by the end of 2008 and close to $200/bbl by 2009, given current trends. But whether those trends persist is hardly a given. After all, even coal has "jumped" on the price increase bandwagon, especially any coal sourced from a place that has access to international markets (= Europe, Japan, China, India) who can afford pricey coal. While some of this may be due to the floods and other "oops" incidents with Australia's coal exporting facilities, a lot of this might be a permanent feature of the energy world. For example, check out http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/coal/page/coalnews/coalmar.html#spot

So, when coal gets pricey (resulting in an electricity price increase of 2 c/kw-hr when prices go up by $40/ton), oil is going extinct (as far as electricity is concerned) and Ngas is getting scarcer by the minute, this should result in boom times for the wind turbine industry, which is the main form of renewables capable of the scale required to replace Ngas and coal. However, no doubt nukers are ready and willing to snatch defeat away from the jaws of victory. And no doubt there are coal companies looking forward to supplying the ammonia industry with their source of H2 - as this can be more profitable than in supplying bulk electricity, which actually has competition.

Currently, NH3 prices are also setting records (currently about $650/ton on the U.S. Gulf Coast, where most U.S. imports arrive), and any new agricultural production of importance - especially wheat and rice production - is going to use mass quantities of NH3. Putting land in Russia, Eastern Europe back into production is going to really squeeze the ammonia production capability of the world to supply these recently activated farm production lands. But it will make more food, at least for those who can afford it.

Anyone for $1000/ton NH3 prices by the end of 2008? After all, wheat prices of $10/bushel and rice at $380/tonne can probably justify such high fertilizer prices, but coal is still a lot cheaper than Ngas. This way, Ngas can go to pricey residential heating and other such uses...but at a bad cost to the world. Using coal to make H2 makes a lot more CO2/unit H2 made, which is not exactly something that is needed right now.

Nb41

by nb41 on Mon Mar 31st, 2008 at 11:24:12 AM EST
Currently, NH3 prices are also setting records (currently about $650/ton on the U.S. Gulf Coast, where most U.S. imports arrive).

Sounds like a job for Stranded Wind

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Mar 31st, 2008 at 11:45:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
However, no doubt nukers are ready and willing to snatch defeat away from the jaws of victory.

Err huh? What do you mean?

by Francois in Paris on Mon Mar 31st, 2008 at 02:32:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Insert "British" in front of nukers and it will make sense.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Tue Apr 1st, 2008 at 09:31:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
From the above informative comments, I conclude that a rich mix of local and regional energy and transportation options will be tried -- a positive development. It seems unlikely that any one method of keeping up with (and destroying) demand can work everywhere. So in a sense the next casualty will be uniformity. Oil, gas and coal prices will begin to vary significantly with location, responding to transportation and risk costs, local demand destruction, energy substitution and adaptation.

The logical next development will be varying amounts and kinds of local hoarding, causing yet more disparities in price. Simultaneously, black markets will begin to appear, featuring even more irregular pricing as well as diverse sorts of bribery, barter and extortion.

Ideally the overall price should be calculated using the broadest available measure, such as a basket of prices, weighted by population and referenced to a deflated Euro.

Since such a complex pricing measure would be difficult to calculate and subject to dispute, I suggest a dual target of (a) 100 nominal Euros and (b) 100 deflated Euros. The choice of a suitable deflator will be interesting.

A dual target leaves plenty of scope for various side bets on ratios and of course also on which of the two sub-targets will be hit first.

by Ralph on Tue Apr 1st, 2008 at 01:50:06 PM EST


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