Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.

Friday Photography Blog #25.

by LEP Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 07:42:51 AM EST

 
Welcome to the 25th Friday Photograhy Blog.

You say you don't know the difference between an f stop and a bus stop, between film speed and shutter speed, between bokah and hallivah.
Well, you've come to the right place. Today, in addition to our regular Photos as Usual we have Photography Clinic-Ask the Experts. You can put your Missed Photos in that section..

Yes, we have a slew of experts including our information leader, Colman, my multi-talented co-host of the photo blog, In Wales, our resident flmmaker, Sven, and many other experts who, Im sure will drift in and out during the day to answer your photography questions. (without being all inclusve I'm thinking of Margouillat, tzt, gringo, and That Brit Guy.) In other words, we've got a bunch of dudes here who know how to take a picture.

Me, I've got lots of questions. I was given a Nikon D-80 fourteen months ago for my 70th birthday after having shot "point and shoot" for about six months. What a shock. I'm still learning the very basics. So I'm going to learn a lot today.

So let's get started. By the way, the photo at the top is of my daughter, estHer, preparing to assist Sven on a photo shoot.

Bumped up for the weekend - In Wales


Display:
ask the expert

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 03:46:23 AM EST
We have experts?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 03:53:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Allegedly.  I'm looking forward to meeting them.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 03:57:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Can someone change the comment head to "ask the experts and missed photos." I've already changed the body.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 04:37:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You can't edit a comment, and we can't delete it either since it has already been replied to.

I suggest posting "missed photos" as a third top-level comment (and editing the body accordingly).

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 04:40:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks Miguel. I've changed the body so I'll just let it be. Some seem to be posting their missed photos already under ask the experts.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:20:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm sorry!!! I didn't realise you still had another category to put up.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:55:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I didn't. I forgot that Colman wanted to do "missed photos." So we'll just put them under ask the experts.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:18:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I took this photo at a flower show last summer.  I wanted to have one of the flowers in focus and the rest blurred but in the process of getting the focus right I didn't really frame it properly. I think it would be a better shot if you could see the whole shape of the flowers that drop off into the background.
It would also be better if I knew how to make the colours stronger and bolder without making them looking completely manipulated. (Better resolution pics if you click on the photo)

Photobucket

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 04:03:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Try:

  1. Convert to Lab colour, and add 10-20% saturation. Lab colour saturation is more subtle and natural-looking than RGB saturation, and less sensitive to noise.

  2. Duplicate and add an overlay blend layer at between 25-50% opacity. This brightens up the colours in anything and adds some contrast.

For the composition, a 180 rotate looks interesting.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 02:15:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 And don't forget to convert it to sRGB if you want it on the web :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:38:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll have a go at that, thanks.  My photoshop skills are fairly poor so I'm building up my list of things to get better at.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 at 03:18:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Convert to Lab colour

Any idea where that would be in Gimp ?

by balbuz on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 at 01:39:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's a consequence of its main flaw, which is that it's stuck for now in the 1990's and can only work on 8 bit RGB. They are working on a major change to the engine to address this, but IMHO it doesn't look like it's going to happen anytime soon. They have set the bar way too high.
You can however use the color menu anyway. You might just lose some dynamic if you edit things a lot, but that should be ok.
Or you can use Krita, KDE's answer to Gimp, which is nowhere near comparable in terms of reliability, UI and tools, but does handle Lab buffers, as well as 16 bit fixed or 32 bit floating point per component RGB.

A 'centrist' is someone who's neither on the left, nor on the left.
by nicta (nico@altiva․fr) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 08:54:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My first question question is very basic. About a year ago I bought an inexpensive ($200)used Nikon lens for my D-80; a 28-105, f3.5 to use as my walking around lens. I've never been totally satisfied with the sharpness of my photos that I've taken with it. Nature pictures always seemed better than photos taken in the city. I've always tended to shoot on A and open the lens to the max. Recently I read that photos are sharper when you step down so I've tried to shoot at f7.1 or f8. My results seem better but I haven't done enough yet to be sure. Is what I'm doing theoretically correct?

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 04:05:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It could be due the fact that by changing the aperture you are altering the depth of field.  With a wide open aperture, there is smaller depth of field therefore depending on the distance you are away from your subject, less is in focus. Soemtimes you want that effect and sometimes not.

I have that issue with my 50mm since I tend to use it for low light shots and have the aperture on f/1.4.

I find that with the 50mm, even though it feels in camera that I have focussed on some specific part of the frame, the shot turns out with it focussing on the wall behind or slightly to the side of the person or subject of the shot. Most annoying.  

Here's a good tip on aperture and DOF

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 04:21:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You must be aware that those "brackets" for AF in the viewfinder aren't always exactly covering the AF detectors... Mines are often a bit lower and on the left then the bracket (lengthy tests results). So I usually use the lower left corner of the bracket as the center part for AF !!!

Then there is the fact that those detectors (captors maybe?) are about contrast values and that they are big enough in size to choose in the bracket area the "best" contrast, meaning the easiest, to focus on.

If you center the bracket on a limit between a fuzzy or dark material and a grouted well lit wall, it'll choose the wall !

Now if you combine the facts that the AF captors aren't exactly where you think they are, added to the "easy" contrast values, you'll find yourself with "accidently" focusing on parts of the scene you didn't choose yourself !
Some will claim they have front or back focusing problems (it happens and is repaired easily) when in most cases it's because of those AF captor sizes and targets...

While in manual focusing,  you have the matted screen, but also the little green focusing light (lower left in the viewfinder).
My own observation, backed by quite a number of other photographers is that this light has several states: not lighted (not in focus), lighted in full (in focus)... And flickering before "full" or after !

I have the sharpest focus when having the flickering green light before full light when focusing from close range toward infinity.
While I use old MF lenses with a longer focusing throw (meaning I can be very precise between flickering or not), it seems it works also with AF lenses with a shorter throw (it's just harder to get to the precise point)...

If one day you discover you're fond of manual focusing a Katz-eye viewfinder glass replacement (not cheap but not needing any mortgaging the house either), it will allow you to use the stigmometer focusing screen all old SLR's used to have :-)
Those who have eyesight problems and prefer manual focusing just rave about it !

I still rely on the original viewfinder glass, but might change in a few years !

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 02:10:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My 50mm is making it apparent that the brackets aren't covering the bit they appear to but that really helps to have you point that out!  I'll try to figure out what it is looking at.

More tips for me to follow! Thanks.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 06:46:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The 28-105 is a good all purpose lens and is recognized as sharp enough.

With a digital camera like the D80, the ratio of the CCD is about 1.5 compared to 24x36 (or 135 format). That means that when set at 50mm focal (for example), the 135 equivalent (or apparent) focal length would be 75mm.

The old trick of trade, stating that you have to set your speed at least at the focal length value (1/50th or 1/60th for a 50mm lens) seems to apply with the so-called crop factor (1.5). That's for camera motion blur vs the subject motion blur !

At the tele end of your zoom (105mm) you should be at a speed of 1/200th (1/157th)if hand holding or use a tripod for slower speeds.

I'm sure that, looking at the exifs, you'll find you have a higher rate of sharp pictures at the wide end then at the tele one... :-)

Then you have the aperture (or f stop). Setting it wide open (small number) allows for more light or a lower speed value in a given light... But it reduces you depth of field (or DoF), meaning that the plane of sharpness is quite shallow ! Add that problem to an auto-focus or manual focus a bit too near or too far and you get a seemingly not so sharp picture !

Of course, all that is above is for a given ISO value (the good old film ISO/ASA number). But with the D80 you can add ISO as another variable by changing it or allowing it to change automatically with auto-ISO.

You can try a "false" manual setting... You get in auto-iso mode, in manual mode, you set a speed value, fixed high enough for your lens crop factor. You then forget about it and use your camera as in mode A (aperture priority), setting the f stop in relationship to DoF.... Then take the pictures !
Auto-Iso will adjust ISO value accordingly, setting it higher if the scene is darker or lower if the scene is lighter...
It has some limitations though. The higher you go with ISO, the more you are prone to "noise" (or digital grain), and you can't go much lower then 100 ISO (if it hits the floor, you'll have to act on speed or f stop)!

Does this helps ? :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 04:39:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for this comment margouillat. I'm sure that I will understand it after reading it 4 or 5 times.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:28:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL...!

Great reply... And quite to the point :-) (Maybe that's why I don't teach photography)!!!

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:35:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I' awfully dumb about these things. I understand some of what you say and will get back to you later. I have to leave for an hour.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:21:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We'll set assignments!
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:22:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
  • Small aperture = bigger depth of field = more of the picture in focus.

  • Long lens = smaller depth of field.

  • Wide lens = bigger depth of field.

  • Effective focal length on D80 = marked focal length * 1.5

  • For hand holding, you need a shutter speed of 1/(effective focal length)

So, 50mm lens, you need 1/75s shutter. 105mm lens you need 1/150s.

  • Close in shake has a bigger effect. Faster shutter for close-ups.

  • Use ISO settings to allow you get your shutter speed up higher.

  • Exifs are the information about the photograph that's embedded in the file. Depending what you use to process your photos you should be able to see shutter speed, focal length and stuff like that.

With practice you can get away with more - I can get a good hit rate holding a stop or two slower than I should be able to , and margouillet's picture below at 1/30 shouldn't be sharp in theory.

Ask for explanations of the other jargonese in there!

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:37:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Someone trying to learn who's willing to ask "stupid" questions to extract information from people would be highly useful here!
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:58:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I'm not entirely up to scratch with understanding focal length.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:06:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That wasn't a question!
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:20:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Alright then. What's focal length all about, Colman?
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:23:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's the distance from the "optical centre" of a lens to the film. You can think of it as the distance from a pinhole to the film. To understand the effect, put a small (say 1cm) hole in a sheet of paper and look through it.

Really: I'll wait.

The closer you hold the hole, the more you can see of the scene, the further away, the less you see. So, short focal length means a wider angle view, long focal length means narrow angle view.

To illustrate the effect, I'll demonstrate why I do photography rather than drawing: on the left we have a pinhole very near the sensor, so the tree(!) only occupies a small part of  the frame, on the right the pinhole is much further away, so the tree occupies lots of the frame.

So far so good?

Now, where this gets interesting is when you change the size of the sensor the light is falling on:

Three sensors indicated there, for a 60mm focal length: 35mm, the DX sensor in the Nikon digitals and most other digital SLRs and 6x6 film. Digital compacts have much smaller lenses.

If you trace the light you can see that the "house" (or "robot")  is covering most of the 6x6 frame, that only a small part of it is visible to the 35mm sensor and even less to the DX sensor. A compact camera thinks that a 60mm lenses is a long telephoto while a 6x6 sensor sees it as a normal lens and a 4" x 5" would see it as an extreme wide-angle. Thus the 60mm lens on a 35mm is equivalent in angle  of view to a 90mm on the DX sensor.

DId that help?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 07:11:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In understanding why you choose photography... Yes! LOL

More seriously, great effort, you must have a scan nearby !
Next step: perspective (or the face you don't recognize with that big nose in the middle :-) )... Or why it is independent of the focal length but in direct relationship with the distance between the subject and the film plane (or captor, or CCD)...

The fact, as shown in Colman's drawings, that different focal lengths (i.e. the usual lens naming) gives you different viewing angles is often confused with the "perspective" effect (the too big nose).
Most people think that with a wide angle you have a "bad" portrait, while with a mid-tele that's not a problem...

As in the drawings above, we tend to "fill" the frame for a portrait (just an example), so with a tele we are at some distance of the subject, while with a "wide-angle" we would be much nearer, thus accentuating the perspective effect.

It works with buildings too, when people want to get the whole church "in the frame" they often favor a great wide-angle lens increasing the weird feeling that parallels spires are meeting in some not too far points !

When you don't have the backing space for a "frame filling" shot (often the case in old cities) it is often easier (i didn't say better) to find a distant viewpoint (the hill outside the village ) and to use a big tele lens...

Or to use your ordinary lens (35m or 50mm) and frame part of the church in a way that conveys the feeling you had when seeing it (the church). :-)


"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 07:50:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
margouillat:
Or to use your ordinary lens (35m or 50mm) and frame part of the church in a way that conveys the feeling you had when seeing it (the church). :-)

As in gioele 's Prague picture below :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 07:53:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Scanners are on the desk beside me and Vuescan makes using them convenient ...

Isn't that two separate issues? The face distortion is due to the way it's spread over the frame (compared to how we expect to see it - you can get the same effect by eye if you pay attention to what you're actually seeing), while the meeting spires is more to do with the sensor plane not being vertical - you point it up at the church and that causes distortion.

That's why view cameras can correct for it: you can set the back parallel to the subject and use the front movement to get the framing you want:

x

From Ansel Adam's The Camera.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 08:04:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You are right about the different problem of non vertical sensor plane :-) (though it's also perspective, but not the one I wanted to mention, two vanishing points are quite enough just now)!

The face distortion is about distance and as you say you can see it if you get near the subject's nostrils :-)

But for a given distance, a tele shot and a wide angle shot will generate the same perspective deformation if you superpose the two pictures (blowing one up or shrinking the other)...

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 08:23:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ah, Scheimpflug. Was busy with that a few weeks ago when I had to photograph a muesli box with 4 different perspectives.

I just came back from a sudden trip from Finland; have I missed much?

You have a normal feeling for a moment, then it passes. --More--

by tzt (tzt) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 01:56:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
perspective (or the face you don't recognize with that big nose in the middle :-)

The folks I know who do portraits on a regular basis swear that 100mm to 135mm (35 mm cameras) lenses are the best for such work--just to avoid the problem you mention.  

These lenses also mean that you can get detailed shots without getting too close to the subject.

"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"

by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 11:03:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's the conventional wisdom, certainly.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 11:04:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's the CW because it works.  My dad had a 100mm just for portraits.  Man! was that a sweet lens.

"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"
by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 12:56:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It depends what you mean by "portrait": if you mean it in the sense of a head-and-shoulders (more or less) picture of a person then yes, a focal length of 75mm to 135mm in 35mm equivalent is considered the most flattering - though some fashion (and "glamour"??) photographers will use much longer lenses than that. I like the shorter end of that - 85mm, which is keeping with more modern convention, I believe. Though I have a nice little 100mm 2,8 which works well too.

For portraits - in the sense of a depiction of a person - that include the environment you can use much wider lenses without making the person look too scary. It's all a matter of how much of the frame they're filling.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 at 04:38:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I go out to a meeting and come back to a doubled number of comments!  You hit on a winner.

This is helpful, thanks.  I will have to read over everything again when I am not supposed to be working!

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:57:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've been working on this topic since I got the f/1.8 50mm this past week (I didn't think to post any photos though, I have a portrait shot probably worth submitting).

One thing I found in an article - and verified myself experimentally - is that this particular lens reaches a max sharpness at f/2.5. Below that it is noticeably less sharp. The spendier f/1.4 50mm is at max sharpness throughout the aperture range.

I'm really appreciating the VR on my zoom lens after working with the new one. It's really tough to get decent low light shots even at f/1.8 that don't exhibit a fair bit of camera shake.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 01:57:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You still can't hand old it below 1/40. Mind you, I've never noticed any softness in either of my 50mm 1.8 lenses* - don't get too caught up on lens tests!

(We have both the AF-D one and a much older manual version.)

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 11:29:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Having less of the picture in focus is actually an advantage. Look at my picture of a bottle on a mountain background below; it's out of focus on purpose. You can't do that with a point and shoot, and my FZ-30 can barely do it.
Artistically, it serves the purpose of focussing the attention on something, and emphasizing depth, frontground vs background, object vs context, etc.
To obtain this effect you need maximum iris operture. In this picture I had to put on a grey filter and 1/1200 exposure, as well as sitting quite close to the bottle while zooming up a bit.
The opposite of this is a camera obscura, ie a pinhole camera, whereby light goes through a tiny puncture, instead of an actual lens system. Everything that gets (somewhat slowly) captured on the sensor is basically in focus. That's about what you get with a point-and-shoot in good lighting condition; just about everything should be focused.
Typically, the more expensive a camera, the larger the sensor and operture, and therefore the more you get this effect.

A 'centrist' is someone who's neither on the left, nor on the left.
by nicta (nico@altiva․fr) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 09:04:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Having less of the picture in focus is actually an advantage. Look at my picture of a bottle on a mountain background below; it's out of focus on purpose.

It can be an advantage, depending on what you're trying to achieve - if you don't want the background it's a good thing. Otherwise it's a bad thing.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 10:43:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes but high end cameras can do both (just close the iris down) while cheap cameras can only do one.

A 'centrist' is someone who's neither on the left, nor on the left.
by nicta (nico@altiva․fr) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 10:59:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Only if the lens in long enough though - good luck getting any noticeable circle-of-confusion out of a 20mm lens on 35m. It's not just about aperture and focal length either: sensor size makes a big difference as well. My GR-D, which has quite a small sensor and a 28mm wide angle lens, has massive depth-of-field even at f2.8. With the 21mm adaptor you hardly need to focus it, except for macros, while with the 40mm you can get a bit of isolation if the background is far enough away from a reasonably close subject.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 11:11:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So margouillat. I go to menu and set my ISO value to automatic. Right away I have a problem. It only allows me to do so when the camera is in point and shoot mode.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:15:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Uh...??? I'll have a look at the manual...!

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:41:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I knew it was there.... :-)
Page 88 #7... Or to make it short without having to search for the manual, it's in the personal settings menu (pencil icon), you set it there for A, S, P, and M program settings !

I usually have it set all the time, except in twilights where it will light more a scene then I want it, making a full day shot of an almost night scene.

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:34:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Also taken at the flower show but it wasn't until I got home that I realised I should have just pulled that centre flower to the front and framed it within the others - rather than having a mess of flowers that you can't see the whole shape of.

Photobucket

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 04:06:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
is this the flower subthread?

here is my first (very amateur) entry, from one of two visits last week to the Hangzhou Botanical Gardens.



Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:02:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
and here is another entry, though technically i am not sure if these are "plum" blossoms; these yellow pretties were found amid the the white and pink to deep pink plum blossoms in this part of the gardens:

they turn out to be "wintersweets" (Chimonanthus praecox), or 蝋梅 (là méi, literally "wax or glazed plum") in Mandarin.

unlike the other blossoms, these have a very noticeable and delightful fragrance.  i had never known them before, they turn out to be fairly common.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:13:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
These. flowers are lovely, BK

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:33:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nice shot.

I'm guessing you posted this under the constructive criticism thread by accident ... but I think a little cropping helps with the impact of that.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:09:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes... Much better crop :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:11:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I like both, but I do like bruno-ken's original framing.  In this version the flower is front and centre, and you can see the two buds underneath.  In bruno-kens the eye phases a bit--the sharpness of the pistils (maybe I got that wrong!) against the blurriness, but I like the phasing (I'm just saying a lot of personal choice is about what we want---heh....I just wanted bruno-ken to know I liked his photo just the way it was, but I like your version too!  They're different approaches, that's all I wanted to say--not saying it very well, though.

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.
by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 07:11:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's why I said "I think" ...  
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 07:13:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Tat's always the problem with composition... :-)
Either you want to achieve something (a story) and play with settings and composition's accepted and widespread rules (or on the contrary flaunt them)...

Or you just have a nice feeling about the scene and take a picture of it to keep it in some sort of Proust's madeleine diairy !

In the first situation you already think about communicating the picture when you take it, in the second situation,it's more personal and when you show it to others, it's like giving them a bit of your inner feelings...!

None is superior to the other, they are just juxtaposed !
But Colman was right in trying to show how the same picture can tell different stories... :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 07:19:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In keeping with the Capa "get closer" quotation (above in ref to In Wales' pub portrait) I'd go even closer. The out of focus stuff doesn't add much for me, and in this close-up you notice the buds more - while there is still enough fuzzy background to give a bit of context and to bring out focus on flower.

ZZ572A5DDC-cu

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 08:50:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I prefer mine. I like the context.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 08:53:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's the irritating thing about aesthetics :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 09:16:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
you guessed right, but definitely welcome all and any such feedbacks.

thanks for the tip about cropping.  i am still just playing around with adjusting hue, saturation, contrast, etc. in iPhoto, but i had not even thought about cropping.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 at 10:00:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I like this photo but I feel as though I missed an opportunity with it and I can't quite work out what.  Is it the framing, or the colour processing?  I used my 50mm lens because it was inside a fairly dark pub, so the slight grainyness and soft focus is due partly to the shutter speed and a higher ISO.

Photobucket

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 04:11:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
While this picture could have a bit more of blue (white balance) because of the tungsten lighting, it isn't that bad :-)
Framing isn't so bad either, as after all, it can felt as an "attitude" (it's all about art :-) )!

The problem I see here is more about including the light appliance. It adds a "hot spot" on DSLRs cameras that are not so good on extreme values (as can be seen here with the posterisation effect) !
No, the real drawback of such a framing with the light appliance is that it fools your metering system (matrix, average, spot ?) by trying to find a mean value between the very dark shirt (dress?) and the very white hot spot !
As it can't, you loose all details in the shadows AND in the hot spot...

Framing without the appliance would have given at f/1.4  and with a "normal" speed an ISO value that would have kept the shadows correctly illuminated and less noise even at a higher ISO...!

Then there is the focus problem with the shallow DoF (what settings for AF do you use ?) that might have been corrected by manual focus... :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 04:55:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, the light was the issue on that shot.  I was using the 50mm, so no zoom and I wasn't able to adjust my distance due to tables and people in the way so I couldn't easily have got the light out of the frame without then introducing lots of rubbish into the shot, like people's heads or lights to the left of the shot that were on the wall.

I do find with the 50mm that I have more trouble focussing it on AF than with other lenses.  But when I switch to manual focus I always mess it up even if it looks right in the viewfinder.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:30:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I imagine the auto-focus problem is because you're using it in low-light.
 That thing should snap into focus immediately on a D200.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:43:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's the low light that is the issue I think.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:50:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It's a pity you couldn't have got closer, Capa's "If your pictures aren't good enough you weren't close enough" is often true - but then that's a macho war photographer talking :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 07:47:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The light in the top corner pulls the eye towards it, away from the subject and is messing up the exposure for the rest of the frame.

The lighting is horrible - mixed tungsten and flourescent as far as I can tell - I can't colour correct is properly.

Why didn't you use a bit of flash? It's a pretty formal portrait.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:00:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, awful pub lighting.  Getting used to using flash is something I must work on.  It feels instrusive to use flash too much in places like that.

It was actually an opportunity shot.  I was taking a photo of her talking to someone and she saw me and turned around to face the camera.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:25:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Even though you have a piggy-back flash on that camera, I would suggest a SB 600 (or 800) at the ceiling for a better ambient lighting...

Direct flash goes with harsh shadows (and sharp pictures)!

Anyhow, once you're tagged as the "Gal with the camera" and after a few minutes, indirect flash won't surprise people too much, while direct flash can (and even hurt people with eye problems)!

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 07:27:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

aDSC_0142SJWlowq-2

I'd suggest this more Capaesque cropping would have been better, the Guinness poster is a bit distracting, and, as it's incomplete, looks accidental. She is the subject but you still have the dark Guinness thing on the wall suggesting a pub.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 07:58:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You could well be right, though I was trying to alter her version as little as I could. I'd also feel constrained by quality here - if I had the RAW it would give better quality for the crop after some noise reduciton.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 08:07:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This one is in about the same condition then yours, Tungsten light, 50mm f/1.4, 1/30th, 1600 ISO but with less light source directly in the frame (some distant ones though)

While the second one is with spot metering on the shadows with an even light (backlit), 20mm, f/2.8, 1/80th, 180 ISO




"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:25:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd say the first one is in better condition than mine!  Much better colour balance.

Did you focus these on manual?  I've tended to spot meter everything, along with the focus, and haven't experimented enough with the different metering settings on the camera.

I seem to be able to improve one aspect of technique at a time, then I look back later on and realise that I'd ruined a shot because I hadn't exposed it correctly or thought about increasing the aperture or changing the ISO...

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:37:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem with the colour on yours is that it's impossible to balance properly: tungsten is orange, fluorescent is green, and they've got both.

Spot metering is not what I would have chosen for a shot like that. What did you meter off? Or do you mean the matrix metering?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:42:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think I know what I mean!
The in viewfinder thing.  I've had it set on the single dot and I'm now confusing myself between the focussing and the metering.  
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:48:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Single dot is spot. Why set it on that? Are you actually using it as spot meter?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:10:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For some reason I set it to that ages ago and have never read up on metering enough to know better and think about changing it to suit different scenes.

Any useful summary for me to bear in mind on metering?

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:22:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Spot metering bad unless you're working hard. Matrix metering good, except when it isn't.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:23:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What does working hard involve?
And when isn't matrix metering good?
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:25:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Working hard is when the lighting conditions are too difficult for the matrix metering to handle or when you have  a definite part of the picture you know you want to come up mid-toned.

Matrix metering isn't good when its voodoo guesses wrong - back-lighting is a classic, though with D-lenses (that tell it where they're focused) it can do some magic.  Lots of light or dark areas in the frame can confuse it too. Snow, sand, etc.

One recent example that occurs to me is shooting a small stained glass window from inside the church.

x

The camera decided it was really dark because the window only took up a relatvely small amount of the frame, while I really wanted to expose for the light outside the window, which made the interior stone black but showed the colours of the window nicely. In that case I spot metered on the window.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:34:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For comparison, this is under the same lighting conditions, pretty much:

x

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:38:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Colman:
when its voodoo guesses wrong

Exactly... :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:53:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I shoot always in "raw" (NEF) as I find jpeg's near to impossible to correct properly !
As Colman stated, problems are with mixed light temperatures (on film as with digital). Your eyes adapt and you don't see (usually) the mess it can create, thus the studio work in controlled light :-)

I manual focused because it was a 50mm Nikkor-S that is about thirty years old :-) The second shot was with AF (20/2.8 AFD).

The first picture isn't really sharp (and the subject was speaking so his chin is more blurred then the rest), but acceptable in small sizes, while the second picture can be blown up at decent sizes !

On the D200, matrix metering is quite good for most cases (apart when you have a direct light in the frame), because I started shooting a long time ago I'm more familiar with centered average metering, as I know what I will get.
I usually keep spot metering for peculiar cases, as in the second picture with the big white diffusing background...

Don't worry about improving one aspect at a time, it'll soak in :-)
Apart from very specific shoots (macro, astronomy, stills, etc.) you shouldn't have to "think" too much, meaning the basics (composition, settings, etc.) should be more on the instinctive side... But to get there, most of us ruined kilometres of good film :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:09:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I'd generally leave it on matrix unless I know it's going to get it wrong - though I watch the settings it chooses. Modern matrix metering is pretty smart.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:19:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The second subject reminds me of black and white photo subjects!
by The3rdColumn on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:08:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's the usual joke with him... ( a good friend still)!
He's Scottish and a true dandy of the Brummell's sort ! Great wits and acute intelligence, but always seems to get out of a 18th century movie :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:19:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think the problem here is that there's not enough front lighting and rather odd backlighting, so the face is partly in shadow.

I've brightened it, Color Balanced and sharpened here a little, which brings it out slightly, but flesh tones are always going to look a bit odd with the vivid colour mix in the background and that Pub Lamp of God backlight effect.

This crop is possibly a bit sterile because it's lost the hands, but it highlights the thirds, and also removes the chairs which are a bit cluttery.

Anyway - it's a different take on the scene, so I thought I'd try it this way to see how it worked out.

Interesting blue eyes now too. (The spice...must flow...)

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 02:40:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Very well done, TBG.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 03:16:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I like that crop. And the Dune reference.  

I want to put together an exhibition for my 30th birthday, towards the end of the year.  The idea is that I get lots of friends and colleagues together who I haven't seen in ages, celebrate my birthday, fundraise for my charity with the event and give myself a challenge for the year to produce an exhibition.

But I know I'm not good enough yet. I also have no idea what theme to have, nor how to put an exhibition together.

Any advice is welcome!

tzt as well, how do you put your exibitions together?

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 at 03:22:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've never had a real exhibition yet so I don't know. :-)  What I've done with schoolwork exhibitions is a) choose a theme/themes, b) arrange the work thematically c) select and reselect and ask other people's opinions on what to choose, what to leave out d) get familiar with the exhibition space and plan the use of the space.

But I'm a total newbie.

You have a normal feeling for a moment, then it passes. --More--

by tzt (tzt) on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 at 08:25:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks that's really helpful - you are less of a newbie than I am!  I am totally stuck on themes at the moment.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 at 03:09:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll give some of mine for critique - although I feel really behind the knowledge curve so far exposed on this thread...

Portraits aren't my thing - I find them incredibly hard and they never come out right, so for now I've decided on just aesthetic scapes. These are two from a trip to Bruges, taken with a simply point and click. I like them, but they don't have that extra zing. How would you improve?

During trips I also enjoy photographing food - because I think it contributes a good slice of a succesful trip. This one I nearly contributed to (last week's?) session of cafe shots. I think the grainyness of the picture actually contributes to the atmosphere. Perhaps I should convert this one to black and white.

by Nomad on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:33:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What camera are you using?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:36:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I ask because something terrible is happening to those highlights, in my not humble enough opinion.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:41:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Can you be more specific?
by Nomad on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:47:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In both the first two pictures there is a lot of light spilling from the bright areas over other areas. In the first one it could be taken as an artistic effect showing the early morning sun, in the second it has completely obliterated the windmills. I'm guessing it's a low-end digital camera that doesn't have a wide exposure range, so that the dark sections are too dark and the bright sections are too white.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:50:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I think only that bit is properly exposed ...

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:55:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Most HDR images you see on the web are completely overdone, but with just a -1/+1 bracketing and a bit of HDR magic this would have been awesome.

A 'centrist' is someone who's neither on the left, nor on the left.
by nicta (nico@altiva․fr) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 09:27:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:59:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I see what you mean. Now ignore the possibilty of a scanner effect.

Question: how would you reduce that kind of flaring effect?

Perhaps I should just take a beginner's course before I start bothering people here...

by Nomad on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 11:21:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't let bright lights into the frame if you can help it, I'm afraid.

Basically, that's scattering off and between the surfaces of the individual lens elements within the lens (as far as I know!). High-end lenses are designed to avoid it, use all sorts of funky glass and special coatings to reduce the amount of flare from bright patches and correct for other things. (I'm having a sudden crisis of confidence that flare is the right work now. Oh well.)  They don't always succeed - even some very expensive lenses can need careful handling to avoid it.

If your camera can't handle it you need to avoid the bright patches when you can.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 11:27:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
s/right work/right word/
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 11:30:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's just so unfair. My schedule and the sun's schedule generally clash, especially on spontaneous trips... Oh well. I'll try to practice on Jozi. But the light contrasts here are large: very harsh and stark during the day, and amazingly gentle after about 4.

I don't see the point of moving towards expensive equipment if I can't make decent compositions in the first place...

by Nomad on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 11:43:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I'm not recommending expensive equipment, I'm just saying! My GR-D has a 40mm adaptor that has good image quality but flares like mad if I'm not careful - lots of extra glass in front of the lens will do that.

Anyhow, you'll just have to talk to Mr Sun about the whole scheduling thing.

A lot of landscape photographers talk about the early and late hours of sunlights as being the magic times for photos. That or an overcast day: trying to take photos in midday sun is hard work.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 11:54:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Having said that, a relatively inexpensive digital at least has the advantage that you can see what's happened immediately.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 11:55:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
 You can reduce a bit of the flare effect with local contrast on Photoshop or Lightroom or some other softwares (I know more about these two).
As it is named, it's a contrast that is applied with a mask at the frontier (aarg... Sometimes english fails me) of differently lighted areas.
It's usually used for hazy pictures and helps with the flare problem.
It automated so you don't really need to know how it works :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:49:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Must you immediately ask the hardest question? I'm an ignoramus on that front.

Besides, I can't check. It has broken down since and I left it in the Netherlands. I'm devoid of camera at the moment. If there's money over after my car purchase (trepidation, trepidation) I can focus on that one...

by Nomad on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:45:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry!

Digital or film?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:47:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Film.
by Nomad on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 11:05:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah. Now I have to wonder about the scanner!
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 11:07:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
*bangs head on keyboard *

I can't check that either - when I had the film developed  I also requested a digital format. That's the one you see here. Interestingly, I like the paper version over the digital one.

by Nomad on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 11:17:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But a professional scanner, at least in theory, so most of the damage should be in the negative.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 11:18:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, FWIW, I really like the first one.  Reminds me of hazy spring mornings and the galleries of European landscape paintings I quickly breeze through at any museum.  (They create a nice old world atmosphere, but I'd rather stare at an Yves Klein for a half hour.)

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 11:24:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The first one works fine, if that's the effect you're looking for.

There are people who go to some trouble and expense to buy older lenses without some of the high-tech coatings in order to get certain flare effects like that.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 11:29:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The mirror picture of the house by the canal is splendid! Color scheme is warm!
by The3rdColumn on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 at 01:47:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
photos as usual

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 03:47:06 AM EST
My wife, digging out her old Polaroid. She thinks ther's film in there. I wont tell her otherwise.



Hey, Grandma Moses started late!

by LEP on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 04:18:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well... As Polaroid closed it's doors definitly, I'm afraid she'll have to "make believe" always from now on...!

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 04:42:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As you well know, illusion can be just as satisfying as reality (whatever that is).

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 04:55:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Photobucket
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 04:24:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

by estHer on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:05:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Great photos - although you wouldn't catch me putting myself in front of the camera very often!
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:21:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I got a film scanner for my birthday, somewhat to my surprise:

Jasper, Canada, some years ago now ...

It's a Nikon Coolscan V ED, and it's great - I can feed it film strips and it'll just scan them in while I do other stuff.

This godforsaken  spot is Reilly Lake, where we experienced more bugs per cubic cm of air than I have ever seen before or since:


by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:17:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Happy Birthday!
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:20:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Happy birthday !!!!

Great and intelligent gift :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:27:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Great? Yes.

Intelligent? I not so sure:

and I want one of these:

A Voightlander Bessa R2M to be exact. Though a nice Leica M4 or something would be fine too.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 09:24:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
With the scanner you can have the best of the two worlds ! (but it can be a lengthy process).

I always wondered about the Bessa vs the Leica ? I still have my father's Agfa Ambi Silette II I leraned photgraphy with, that looks a lot like the Bessa ( A 1950 version) with a circular iris shutter, the lens mount being the shutter ring that stays with the camera...

My M6 was great but I found that it's level of goodness wasn't related to it's level of price !  I miss it, but wonder if I'm missing a good rangefinder more then one of that peculiar brand...

If I shifted back to film, I think the Bessa would my my choice for a travel, street, everyday camera (I can't easily find lenses for the Ambi-Silette!)... :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 09:41:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm reasonably certain that a Bessa will outlast me by almost as much as a Leica will! Leica's are just too expensive to justify.

I don't intend shooting colour film much - though slides scanned at 4000 dpi are sort of nice if you want to print on the side of the house - so it would be B&W, which I enjoy developing.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 09:45:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's one of my incentive to get older... To find the time to put back my B&W darkroom in works :-)
FP4 is great but I do like the fuji Acros which you tend to find more easily here because of the aggressive marketing of Fuji !

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 09:56:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Developing B&W doesn't need a darkroom! A tank and reels, some chemicals and a changing bag and you're done.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 09:57:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Those are at hand (with powder packs of Perceptol, ID 11 and Microphen just in case I push or reduce a film), but I like the enlarger prints, and the voodoo magic of the picture showing up in the tray !
It worked with all of my children... Big gleaming eyes !

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:08:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As you know, I have the 5000 ED, but in order to scan uncut strips I need to buy an accessory--an SA-30-- and no one hereabouts seems to have it. Did you need to buy a similar gizmo? If so, --how expensive is it? Sure would be nice-  

Capitalism searches out the darkest corners of human potential, and mainlines them.
by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 01:56:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Coolscan V comes with a feeder that will take 35mm film cut in the normal 6 frame strips, which is fine for me: I generally cut film to that length for storage anyway and my iMac can scan while I work or read ET or whatever. I can't work out from the website whether the 5000 shipped with one of those. I'd need to buy an accessory for scanning whole rolls. Actually, I'm not certain if I can even buy such an accessory for the V, which I think might be one of the reasons for the more "professional" price on the 5000. That and the 16-bit A/D convertor.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 02:08:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks- my 5000 came also with the gizmo for the 6-frame sections, but the 5000 scans faster, and I've found a processor who will do color positives and negatives in strips-uncut. Then I can have a life, and good 16-bit scans too.

Capitalism searches out the darkest corners of human potential, and mainlines them.
by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Wed Mar 12th, 2008 at 07:17:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It looks like at this shop  they have the SA30 (reels) and the SA21(strips)... :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 02:29:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Whoa.
For over 900 Euros inc. tax, I'll just muddle along with my current rig.
Thanks, though, for finding this.

Capitalism searches out the darkest corners of human potential, and mainlines them.
by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Wed Mar 12th, 2008 at 07:37:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Apologies if I've posted any of these before...


Prague, Czech Republic

by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:49:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Damn, I forgot to czech the size (width) of the photo before uploading and posting!

Is there an auto-constraint (to 600 pix wide) feature built in to the site yet?

I seem remember there being some discussion about this, no?

Sorry...

by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:53:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmm, doesn't look like it... Grabbed the posted photo and it shows to be 640 wide...
by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:57:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not yet... :-)
It's all about handcrafts !

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 07:04:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ooh, cool!

I just discovered that one can edit the image online on the photobucket site and save over existing image and it will not change the image url or anything...

in short: I resized it online and it's fixed!

by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 07:08:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nice feature... I don't have it on my FileAvenue site !

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 07:28:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmmm, seems like photobucket added KBs to the image after I reduced the width... weird...
by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 09:13:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
These were shot after an approach that was worthy of the deepest safaris :-)

Those kittens were hungry and I managed to lure them nearer (I had an FM2 and the 180mm with a 100 ISO film at almost noon under the pine trees...) The female (forefront), taking risks, while the male one was much harder to get closer till he assumed a protecting position on his sibling.

While they look just like ordinary kittens, they grow with bigger ears, whiskers, and "fatter" cheeks and keep the distinctive stripes. They are crossed between an authentic wild species (that has disappeared)and the common straycat.



"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 07:03:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wow.
Incredible cats, good shot.

Capitalism searches out the darkest corners of human potential, and mainlines them.
by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 02:00:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you... :-)
Not moving ( a too deep breath and they were gone), half kneeling while hand holding the whole lot was creating quite a lot of camera shake after some time... I'm happy having some sharp ones (the original are much sharer then the lousy cheap scan I had then)!

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 02:34:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

corse-50839

The Iranians have arrived - armed ! :-)

arab-50845

kids-50825

M. in the Jardins Bioves with the fixed dsplays:

montse-garden-50876

haw-dancer-50793

More at: http://nice-jours.blogspot.com


Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 08:26:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Looks more like "Prince of Persia" to me :-)
While I knew about Nice's carnaval, I didn't know Menton had a "citron" festival ?

The corsican chariot folkloric dresses looks a lot like the one from Nice, minus the hat ???

What's your camera (just curious) ?

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 08:33:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

While I knew about Nice's carnaval, I didn't know Menton had a "citron" festival ?

Tut tut :-) It's in 75th year and broke record this year with 250,000 paying visitors.

Nice Carnaval photos are here:

http://nice-jours.blogspot.com/2008/02/battle-of-flowers-nice-carnival.html


What's your camera (just curious) ?

Used to have film SLRs, Olympus and Canon. I now use Lumix LX1 - very pleased with quality in general (Leica zoom) and it will even take about 50mins of not bad video! SO many menus! - I find automatic mode fine for most pics. I take a lot more photos, as I can just put it in my pocket and carry it around most of the time. Also I'm in less danger of the back problems which affect a lot of pro phots carting round a bag of camera bodies and lenses on one shoulder :-)  

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 09:13:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What a marvelous find.
Thanks, Ted- I visited the link, read the wiki entry on Menton---sounds like a marvelous bit of culture. Microclimates, microcultures fascinate me.
Along the coast to the East and South, past Genoa are five tiny towns, long isolated, that I love- each unique in it's way.

Monterroso Al Mare
Vernazza
Corniglia
Tiny, sleepy Manarola
and lastly, Rio Majore

Together they are called the Cinque Terre- the five lands. We used to fly from Paris to Genoa and take the train after- the Albenga radio beacon right at the very top of the Ligurian sea
was our transition point into a different world.


Grape monorail- miniature monorail train for hauling grapes


Our little apartment behind the church in Rio Majore

Stormy afternoon in liguria.

All are scans from old film.  

Capitalism searches out the darkest corners of human potential, and mainlines them.

by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 08:04:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]


'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 09:49:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Berlin Hauptbahnhof
by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 08:46:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Turm in the Schwarzwald, DE

The same one as the lightning rod was on from last week's Fri. photo-blog.

by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 08:57:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Er... How did you get the lightning rod picture ? You can get up that thing or was it some mountaineering feat ? :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 09:00:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, heh, heh...

Around the other side is the entry and full set of stone stairs until the very top when it becomes a tiny spiral staircase of steel.

It was renovated/retrofitted in 2002.

It's called Friedrichsturm

by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 09:26:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The down-low on the tower


The looking up at the staircase


The steel stairs


A view from afar, note the man (half of him) at the top of the tower...

by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 09:53:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Sad lion on the side of the Heidelberg Castle, incredible stonework...
by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 09:36:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I really like this one.



Hey, Grandma Moses started late!

by LEP on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 09:42:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Chatting about B&W development with Colman made me recall of this one, my two daughter walking in the street ahead of me on a rainy day... Well, you can tell who's the eldest by the umbrella's size :-)

Quick grabshot but I'm fond of it :-)



"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:16:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
x

Naxo, Greece, seven or ten years ago.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 12:20:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 12:47:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
x>
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 12:26:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The sea was not frozen in Kotka last week!


Blue


I did see some ice though.


Kuusinen

You have a normal feeling for a moment, then it passes. --More--
by tzt (tzt) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 02:01:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I did a fashion shoot at the local library - the series was BW and kinda serious but I saved this one in color for fun.


Elevaattori

You have a normal feeling for a moment, then it passes. --More--
by tzt (tzt) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 02:03:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What about the greens ? :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:51:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The ultimate french bike.... :-)



"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 at 06:02:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
chateau giscours! Not bad!
by The3rdColumn on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 at 01:42:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Great picture LEP, "the modern day photographer" :-)
And I live not very far from that summer picture of the rue Soufflot !

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 09:03:05 AM EST
Thanks. The photo of the Pantheon was taken two summers ago with my Kodak Z650. It's one of the few photos I've ever printed.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 09:39:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Specially dedicated to LEP! The skies of Brittany

by The3rdColumn on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:13:42 AM EST
Skies of Brittany

by The3rdColumn on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:17:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
These are beautiful photos TTC. What kind of camera do you have?

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:40:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
LEP, I just used a small and old, 6-year old, heavy Olympus digital camera and clicked away.
by The3rdColumn on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:49:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This one too for LEP, early morning "godille" (rowing with one hand)...



"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:20:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Beautiful!
by The3rdColumn on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:24:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Where is it? In Brittany?
by The3rdColumn on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:50:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ST Marine, next to Benodet at about 16 km of Quimper ! Famed for it's "galettes au blé noir" (but the crêperie is now closed !).

There are several nice houses on the Odet river (Penn Odet = Benodet, the head of the Odet ), not very far and on the same side there is Tabarly's house !

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman

by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 05:36:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Been to Benodet, love the place and all of the West coast of Brittany; Eric Tabarly, my favourite sailor!
by The3rdColumn on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:03:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hi Margouillat, Is this property yours?
by The3rdColumn on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 11:30:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Alas no... :-)
This was shot with a 180/2.8 AIS from the small (green) entrance of the Odet river Lighthouse !
It's one of the very few who hasn't changed since the "before the bridge" era :-)

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 12:59:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
wow, those are epic

reminds me of an 19thC oil old master...

the top and bottom one....just great!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:11:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hip, hip hooray for 25th Photo - blog (and many more to come, we hope!!)

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:25:58 AM EST
by The3rdColumn on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 10:45:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
""

No bouquet to give

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson

by NearlyNormal on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 04:35:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh my! Lovely, just lovely!
by The3rdColumn on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 06:05:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Some interesting effects here. The top rows of windows look like they've been Photoshopped, but in fact it's reflected ambient lighting from the bright sky - one of those times when an optical grad could have been useful.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2008 at 03:00:35 PM EST
 Even in the dead of winter we can't forget that we live in corn country. I can see this lone survivor out my bedroom window.

by SacredCowTipper (sct@strandedwind.org) on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 at 12:26:26 AM EST
Wow, how deep is the snow?
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sat Mar 8th, 2008 at 03:17:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Taken with a Lumix FZ-30

A 'centrist' is someone who's neither on the left, nor on the left.
by nicta (nico@altiva․fr) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 08:32:37 AM EST

That's Grenoble below the thick layer of shit.

A 'centrist' is someone who's neither on the left, nor on the left.
by nicta (nico@altiva․fr) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 08:35:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]



A 'centrist' is someone who's neither on the left, nor on the left.
by nicta (nico@altiva․fr) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 08:46:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't recall seeing you post to the photo blog before, nicta, but, in any event, I hope to see more of you in the future.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 09:43:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Macro on a clear spring day.




A 'centrist' is someone who's neither on the left, nor on the left.
by nicta (nico@altiva․fr) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 11:23:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
LIke the first and third. The out-of-focus stuff on the second makes my left eye twitch.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 11:25:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's meant to be viewed turned 90°

A 'centrist' is someone who's neither on the left, nor on the left.
by nicta (nico@altiva․fr) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 11:28:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was thinking. It's an interesting example of the effect that out-of-focus areas in unexpected places can have though.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 11:30:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
10 images, taken with manual exposure and no tripod, cylindrical projection. The dark zone in the middle, altough distracting, is not an artifact, it's the opposite of the sun.

Grenoble is on the left, under the thick layer of dirty clouds. Google Maps. Google Earth.

A 'centrist' is someone who's neither on the left, nor on the left.
by nicta (nico@altiva․fr) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 11:47:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's impressive. Did you have software to stitch that or line it up yourself?
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 11:58:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Powerful but you really need to take the time to read the doc.

http://hugin.sourceforge.net/

A 'centrist' is someone who's neither on the left, nor on the left.

by nicta (nico@altiva․fr) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 12:17:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]


'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 09:05:51 PM EST
Why indeed... ? :-)
Not knowing the camera + lens model internals, I really can't imagine why such a square reflection (I would have thought it would have been circular) ?

"What can I do, What can I write, Against the fall of Night". A.E. Housman
by margouillat (hemidactylus(dot)frenatus(at)wanadoo(dot)fr) on Mon Mar 10th, 2008 at 05:12:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Reflecting from inside the lightbox - or whatever that is called - back into the lens? That would account for the square shape. It's very strange though.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 10th, 2008 at 05:31:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Diffraction?
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 10th, 2008 at 04:39:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
vertical

horizontal

which works better, iyo?

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 09:15:36 PM EST
I think in both it would be nice to have a little more of the landscape, in which case I like the vertical one more.  
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Mon Mar 10th, 2008 at 03:30:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]


'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 09:21:44 PM EST


'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Mar 9th, 2008 at 09:27:01 PM EST


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