Italian Elections Open Thread

by de Gondi Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 07:01:21 AM EST

"May the worst lose."

Update [2008-4-14 9:17:26 by DoDo]: Polling booths closed, exit polls are in, live-blogging begins!

Polling booths will close today at 3 PM. Exit polls will be available within minutes while official results are scheduled to trickle out starting at 4 PM. As in the last elections in 2006 final results may not be expected until late into the night. The Minister of the Interior has directed poll booth authorities to count the ballots one at a time so as to further assure the regularity of the procedure. This will presumably slow down the count.

Voter abstention at closing time last night was a significant -4%. If the trend continues today abstention may go over the historical 20% threshold. By standards in other democracies there is a very high voter turnout in Italy. It has however progressively eroded since the early nineties to an all time low in 2001 (18.6% abstention). In the 2006 elections there was an inversion of the tendency (16.4% abstention). It will be difficult to calculate the impact of abstention on these elections since there are two major reasons for not voting: apathy or protest, the former penalizing the right, the latter the left.

The latest prediction market results made available at midnight for April 6th, give the rightwing coalition at 42.2% with the Democratic Party at 38.9%, an insignificant rise for the center-left. The Catholic right coalition, the Union of Democrat Christians has held at 6.5%, while the other significant player, the far-left Rainbow coalition has slightly lost ground, down to 7.5%. The minor new fascist party, La Destra, remains at 2.8%, not enough to make it over the 4% quorum for the House. This party will however play a role in draining votes away from the Berlusconi right-wing coalition in key regions such as Lazio.

While the outcome for the Chamber of Deputies appears certain with a solid right-wing majority, the Senate remains a lottery. Opinion polls published a fortnight ago indicated that at least four regions could go either way, Liguria, Sardinia, Calabria and Abruzzo. However, the present system of assigning Senators in each region could give surprise upsets in any other region for a handful of votes.

It is unlikely that the Senate will express a clear majority, thus repeating the situation the Prodi government had to deal with these past two years. Once again the Senators-for-life will play a key role in government stability. Since Senators-for-life are appointed by the President of the Republic for outstanding merits it is normal that they tend to express the cultural values of the left. Of the Senators-for-life the rightwing can expect the occasional support of Francesco Cossiga and Giulio Andreotti, the only two conservatives.

Someone recently remarked that the Modern Right no longer destroys, it simply prevents things from being born. Italy has spent the last fifteen years in transition wandering aimlessly through the rubble of the first republic. Whatever the outcome of these elections, there is one clear loser: Italy.

Italian Elections Open Thread | 62 comments (62 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

BBC NEWS | Europe | Italians hold second day of polls

Voting is set to resume in Italy on the second day of elections for a new parliament and prime minister.
The main contenders for the premiership are centre-right former Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi and the centre-left former mayor of Rome, Walter Veltroni.
With the economy a key election issue, both men have promised modest tax cuts and reductions in bureaucracy.
Official figures suggest that nearly two-thirds of voters have already cast their ballots.
Correspondents say the race is likely to be close, and the winner may have to broker a deal with smaller parties.

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 05:47:46 AM EST

Disillusioned Italians head to polls again - Europe, News - The Independent

Italians voted in their second general election in two years, and their 62nd since the war, in the knowledge that the result could well be a stalemate, and yet more elections down the road.
In many polling stations yesterday, the turnout was down from the historically high figures of 2006, reflecting growing disillusionment with politicians across the political spectrum. Voting is spread over two days, so the exit polls will not be published until this afternoon.
A voter in Sorrento, south of Naples, described by police as a 41-year-old limoncello producer, was arrested at a polling station after taking the oversize ballot paper which bears all the parties' symbols, then calmly tearing it into small pieces and eating it. He was charged by police with destroying election materials. Later he said: "All the politicians disgust me, I don't feel represented by anyone."

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 05:48:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Italians go glumly to the polls - International Herald Tribune

ROME: Italians voted Sunday in a general election that could return the billionaire Silvio Berlusconi to power amid a widespread sense of national decline and fears that no candidate will be able to put the country back on track.
Voting was scheduled to last until 10 p.m. and was to resume Monday morning and continue until early afternoon.
The voting is being held under a discredited election law that many analysts say fosters instability. It comes amid worries of economic recession and disillusionment with a political class that many contend has failed to solve the nation's problems.
A garbage collection crisis has left tons of trash piling up on the streets of Naples. Efforts to sell the loss-making national airline Alitalia are up in the air after a proposal by Air France-KLM has encountered the opposition of unions and political powers. A buffalo mozzarella health scare has hit one of the country's culinary treasures and hurt exports.

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 05:49:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (4.00 / 3)

LA Times- In Italy, crime pays and may get you elected

ROME -- When they vote this weekend, Italians can choose among any number of convicted felons or the odd TV go-go dancer on the ballot. Not to mention the personal friends, relatives and, in one case, the physical therapist of party leaders putting together potential governments. Crime does not disqualify you from running for office in this country, nor are qualifications necessarily necessary.

Campaign season for the election of Italy's 62nd government in 63 years has highlighted the long line of unresolved problems undermining the country, thwarting important change and stymieing what was once a fabled icon of culture.

[snip]

The conduct of business is a murky and frustrating experience -- unless you're the Mafia, now the largest business in Italy, accounting for 7% of gross domestic product, according to the Assn. of Italian Industrialists.

The judiciary rarely functions: Cases can languish not for years but decades. Italian Parliament members are the highest-paid in Europe but, in the opinion of many people, the least effective, a self-perpetuating elite that seems hellbent on taking the country down with it.

"With its byzantine and decadent style of politics, Italy is at a point of no return," says sociologist Luca Ricolfi, author of a scathing critique titled "The Art of Non-Government."

Lack of accountability trumps civic duty every time. And don't expect national elections taking place today and Monday to change things.

[snip]

"This is a system that is preying on Italians, sucking the best energies of the country, preventing a meritocracy from developing and forcing everyone to play a game," said Alexander Stille, an academic who specializes in Italy. "Italy has always been a place where people felt that . . . unless you cheat or break the rules, the deck is stacked against you."

Last year, a book for the first time put letter and verse to long-held suspicions of official corruption. "La Casta [The Caste: How Italian Politicians Became Untouchable]" became a bestseller and triggered a debate that gripped the nation for months. The term la casta became part of the national lexicon and is now used universally to describe a slothful, overindulged political elite.

Among the book's infuriating revelations:

Italian Parliament members last year had the highest salaries in Europe (more than 50% higher than their British, German and French counterparts).
It costs more to run the Italian Parliament than any other in Europe -- 10 times as much as Spain's. In the last legislature, 16 lawmakers were convicted felons (and continued in office), and 10 or so others were facing criminal charges.

[snip]

"It will take about 10 years to change this political class," said Ricolfi, the sociologist. "But the problem is that in 10 years we will have sunk so far that we won't be able to pull ourselves out again. It will be too late, end of story."

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 07:26:24 AM EST

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (4.00 / 2)

La Repubblica.it » Homepage

Exit poll Camera: Pdl 42, Pd 40, Udc 5,5, Arcobaleno 4,5. Senato, 3 punti di differenza

Centerleft 2% behind B's coalition, hard-left with surprisingly low figure.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 09:07:12 AM EST

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (4.00 / 2)

The Corriere della Sera has Flash graphics, with the same numbers.

La Stampa has it in graphical form, and with spreads:

Pdl: 40-43
PD: 37-40
Left-Rainbow: 4.5-6.6
Center Union (=Udc in the above): 4.5-5.5
Right (fascists): 2-3

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 09:13:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (4.00 / 3)

As we all remember in 2006, exit polls can play cruel tricks. There was a 4 to 6 % advantage for Prodi that ended up as 0.1 %.

The Repubblica is now putting the Democratic Party as the first party and likely to win the Senate on the basis of the exit polls. However, this neglects to emphasis that Berlusconi's People of Freedom Party is in a coalition with the Lega Nord. Veltroni's party beats Berlusconi's party but not his coalition.

Votes will be first counted for the Senate this time in accordance with directives by the Minister of the Interior. There are less votes for the Senate as one must be at least 26 years of age.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 09:29:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (none / 1)

What I'll be watching is the vote count in Sicily...

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 09:57:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (none / 1)

The Autonomous Movement will win by a large margin. It is Casini's handicap. With Cuffaro the UDC had all the power there. Both Cuffaro and Lombardo are godsons of the same political boss, Calogero Mannino, only Lombardo is running in the Berlusconi coalition this time.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 10:14:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (none / 1)

The prediction market has just put up their results. Prediction markets are based on placing money on candidates rather than expressing personal preferences.

The Democratic Party shows a strong recovery in the past week for the lower house (chamber of deputies).

Berlusconi coalition: 41.7%

Democratic Party: 39.3%

Rainbow coalition: 7.5%

UDC: 6.5%

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 09:13:12 AM EST

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (none / 0)

Prediction markets reflect conventional wisdom more than anything. (Just ask presidential nominees Hillary Clinton and Rudy Giuliani.) It probably reflects news stories more than anything. I'd guess we're looking at a right coalition, based upon the exit polls.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 09:21:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (none / 1)

They still allow for an outside chance of a hung parliament, with center-left and hard-left at a combined 50%.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 09:25:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (none / 1)

Yeah, could be. It's going to be pretty damned close, I think. Statistically, I don't think there's any difference between the left and right totals.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 09:27:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (none / 1)

News stories do have an impact on a voter's decision, more so than a candidate's speech.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 09:53:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (4.00 / 2)

Contrary to last night's result, the situation on abstention turned around today. Temporary figures are 83.44% for the Chamber of Deputies and 85.34% for the Senate.

This is slightly less than voter turnout in 2006 but higher than 2001.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 09:38:28 AM EST

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (none / 1)

Repubblica, on the basis of data from two-thirds of communities, still projects a fall in turnout to an all-time low: to 81.9%.

BTW, what's up with spin at Repubblica? Of the six PM candidates, only Bertinotti got an photo on which he looks sour.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 10:06:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (none / 1)

Yes, I see, at 16:13. So it's going towards an all time low by Italian standards.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 10:18:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (none / 1)

Actually Boselli looks sour. Bertinotti has a typical expression of his.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 10:23:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (none / 1)

Boselli looks to me like he has a faint smile on. At any rate, it is a favourable photo, like one would expect to see on a personal bio page, as are four of the other five. Not typical.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 10:31:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (none / 1)

Far too early but the Lega Nord is doing very well in Lombardia.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 10:24:21 AM EST

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (4.00 / 2)

Exit polls give Berlusconi narrow lead in Italian election - Times Online

The first exit polls in Italy's general election show Silvio Berlusconi and his centre-right allies with a narrow lead that could give him control of the Lower House, but it is not clear whether he has enough votes to govern the country outright.
The 71-year-old media tycoon is seeking his third term as Prime Minister of Italy after an election campaign strewn with his customary gaffes.
Mr Berlusconi's "People of Liberty" alliance plus the Northern League have a narrow lead, with between 38.5 per cent and 45.5 per cent, while Walter Veltroni's recently formed Democratic Party -- a fusion of liberals and former Communists -- between 37 per cent and 43 per cent.
Commentators said it appeared that Mr Berlusconi had won control of the Lower House but might have too narrow a lead in the Senate to govern -- the same situation in which Romano Prodi found himself before his government fell in January after 20 months.

[Murdoch Alert]

by Fran on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 10:47:49 AM EST

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (4.00 / 2)

I'm getting a lot of insubordination from my server. Interior Minister is off limits, as well as key sites. Repubblica seems to stick it through for the moment.

I don't see anything reliable for the next few hours. Previsions are going up and down but generally settle around a rightwing victory.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 10:56:16 AM EST

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (4.00 / 4)

At 18:00 it appears that Berlusconi will have an ample victory in both the Senate and the House of Deputies.

Corriere gives a 9% advantage while la Repubblica gives a more prudent 4%.

Partial results in from key regions do not bode well for the Democratic Party. Abruzzo, Campania and Sardinia are solidly in the hands of Berlusconi while Lazio is still very close. Liguria has gone to the Left- the only key region in their hands.

It appears that Berlusconi will have a comfortable majority in the Senate.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 12:10:36 PM EST

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (none / 1)

These are of course projections based on partial results.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 12:24:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (none / 1)

The situation in Liguria has now changed at 61% of the results with a slight majority going the the rightwing.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 12:26:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (none / 1)

We are now at a little over 10% counted, with 43.5% to 40.2%, but projections are much worse. The real bad surprise seems to be that Rainbow fails at the 4% limit?

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 12:49:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (none / 1)

If I watch this and try to find another interpretation than vote fraud, is a communists to Bossi swing even possible?

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 12:51:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (none / 1)

The working class in the North flip flopped a long time ago from utopian communism to rightwing racism.

I don't think much voter fraud was possible- or necessary.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 01:49:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (none / 1)

With 98% of the precincts in, voter participation is at 81%, an all time low for national elections.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 12:17:02 PM EST

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (4.00 / 3)

Definitive for voter participation is 80,4%.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 01:42:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (4.00 / 4)

Great work de Gondi.

I would comment more, but I'm a bit drained at the idea of more years of Berlusconi.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 02:07:15 PM EST

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (4.00 / 2)

Thanks. Have a beer.. it's on the house.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 02:09:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (4.00 / 3)

Might need something stronger than beer...

On the bright side, I guess this means Bossi's not going to break out the guns.

----------- Assi le homines: illes que ha un mal natura pote cambiar de maniera, sed su natura resta immutabile.

by altermondialista on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 02:28:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (4.00 / 9)

It now appears that the transitional period from the first republic to the second republic is concluding. Berlusconi will have an ample margin in both the Senate and the House of Deputies together with the Lega Nord and the ex-fascist party, Allianza Nazionale. It is likely that Fini will simply be digested by the gastric juices of the smiling monster. Bossi of the Lega Nord will force issues to the extreme.

There will be the Democratic Party as the only opposition, quite weak at that, together with a few deputies from Casini's UDC.

Italy has decided to embark on a perilous adventure with happy hour superficiality. Any coming disaster will be blamed on Prodi. Europe beware.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 02:20:13 PM EST

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (4.00 / 3)

I've got to sign off for an hour to commute.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 02:21:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (4.00 / 3)

A well deserved break on a shitty election day.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 02:33:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The End of the Transition (4.00 / 2)

How depressing. Like I said the other day, and for this we had Mani Pulite?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 02:35:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (4.00 / 7)

As you all know by now, Veltroni conceded defeat and congratulated Berlusconi for his victory. Bertinotti has resigned as head of Rifondazione. Boselli has also resigned as head of the Socialist party.

Berlusconi has won in all key regions and will be able to govern as he so wishes.

Details of his win will be definitive later in the night.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 03:21:21 PM EST

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (4.00 / 4)

My Italian friend is almost weeping. I guess I'll go find him a drink now.

You have a normal feeling for a moment, then it passes. --More--

by tzt (tzt) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 03:22:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (4.00 / 4)

Well, my guess is, he is not the only one, this is depressing. Though there might be some funny moments watching the two superegos Sarkozy and Berlusconi fight for the central place in the limelight.

Veltroni would at least have been a ray of hope.

by Fran on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 03:39:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (4.00 / 4)

Damn.

If only Blair hadn't resigned, we'd have a full set.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 06:57:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (4.00 / 6)

Thanks for your invaluable work on this.

But my God it's depressing in the end.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 04:01:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (4.00 / 2)

Forca Corporazione rules...

One country per election. How clueless or corrupt oppositions can be?

by das monde on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:05:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (4.00 / 13)

Berlusconi's resounding victory has decimated the left. For the first time in Republican history neither the Communist party nor the Socialist party will be represented. The UDC, heir of the old Democrat Christians, will have a cameo role of no particular importance. Berlusconi has made the ritual statements of loyal and constructive collaboration with the opposition. Bossi, on the contrary, insists that they will make their reforms without anyone, manifestly impossible with the present constitution.

I do not see the Democratic Party holding on to its two minor parties, Di Pietro's Italy of Values and the Radicals, unless it makes for a strong opposition. The two minor parties are strong on single issues such as justice and women's rights. It is all too easy for Berlusconi to play on those issues to undermine the Democratic Party. Any concession or collaboration with Berlusconi will only displace the barycentre of the political spectrum to the right, something that Veltroni has already done by excluding the historical Left from a prospective coalition. Veltroni's gamble was to build a conservative center-left party that would erode centrist votes from the right. In that he has failed.

Berlusconi on his part has co-opted the conservative vote by creating a personality cult. Any contradictions within his coalition have been metabolized by his person. Berlusconi lays bare the underlying modus operandi of Italian conservatism. His constituency has little faith in its personal power to effect change in the world and prefers to delegate to providence, to the strong leader, thus shirking personal responsibility.

Some pundits have ventured that, since Berlusconi has done everything in his life, he may now act as a magnanimous statesman and create a modern, dynamic, competitive Italy. To borrow a favoured word from Berlusconi's vocabulary, he is "anthropologically" incapable of doing anything that does not satisfy his immediate needs. And those are fairly simple to note: the castration and subjugation of the judiciary branch; the expansion of his control over all media. These will go against European directives and court sentences. He could care less, after all it's the state that picks up the bill, not him.

His jingoist handling of the Alitalia case will bankrupt the company, putting some 20,000 people out of work.

He will have to pay back three important players that contributed to his win: the Mafia, the Vatican and the Lega Nord. But in the final analysis it's all the same thing, la Pornocrazia.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 05:28:22 PM EST

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (4.00 / 4)

de Gondi:

Any concession or collaboration with Berlusconi will only displace the barycentre of the political spectrum to the right, something that Veltroni has already done by excluding the historical Left from a prospective coalition. Veltroni's gamble was to build a conservative center-left party that would erode centrist votes from the right. In that he has failed.

When will Social Democrats learn that triangulating is a losing proposition?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 05:42:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (4.00 / 5)

Decades of history and in multiple countries...examples abound.

Need we continue to ask?

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 06:00:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (none / 1)

Triangulation worked quite well electorally for the Social Democrats during the 90s. Reference Schröder, Blair, Kok...

What the parties need to internalise now is that they have eroded their base of support.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 07:40:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (none / 1)

These will go against European directives and court sentences. He could care less, after all it's the state that picks up the bill, not him.

Is there any way that the EU can "come to the rescue" of Italy, should his abuses and violations become excessive? (I am only half-serious -- but only half-joking, too.)

A language is a dialect with an army and navy.

by marco on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 05:53:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (4.00 / 10)

Italy has already been condemned for its communication act for surreptitiously creating a monopoly, as well as Berlusconi's illegal occupation of concessions awarded to a competitor nearly ten years ago. The state is paying a fine of 400,000 euros a day for a situation created by Berlusconi. The offended party is asking over a billion euros in damages from the Italian state for not applying the law. Berlusconi simply replied that it does not concern him. He after all does not have to pay the fine- nor damages.

Last week Italy was condemned for not having made laws concerning waste in accordance with the EU directives. This does not concern the Campania for which legal action is pending before European Courts.

In the case of the Diaz School torture during the Genova G8 summit in 2001, the victims have decided to take the case before European courts. Although a first sentence is expected soon in the most barbarous violation of human rights within the European Union in recent time, the victims do not expect proper redress in Italy.

In his previous tenure, Berlusconi systematically attacked and blocked European initiatives and institutes. In the case of EuroJust he managed to hamper and delay progress in the integration of European judiciary and investigative systems.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 06:18:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Berlusconi is making a mockery of the EU (none / 1)

Did not know about the Diaz School incident.

As for Berlusconi, lucky bastard: I guess punishing the actual perpetrator of the wrongdoings rather than penalize the state of which s/he is head would be infringing on the sovereignty of that state, correct?

What incentive(s) can the EU otherwise give the Italian people to keep him out of office? 400,000 euros of their collective tax money does not really seem like much of an incentive.

A language is a dialect with an army and navy.

by marco on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 07:15:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

OT (none / 0)

A language is a dialect with an army and navy.

That's a good line! Where is it from?

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:56:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OT (none / 1)

Good question...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu Apr 17th, 2008 at 06:12:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (none / 1)

Some pundits have ventured that, since Berlusconi has done everything in his life, he may now act as a magnanimous statesman and create a modern, dynamic, competitive Italy.

The reporter on Deutsche Well TV said that "Italy is ripe for reforms, now Berlusconi has the chance to deliver them, unlike before"... I had to switch channels immediately. (And this is a channel that in the prior news segment listed all the court cases against B and the personalised law-making to get himself free.)

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 02:48:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (4.00 / 4)

Berlusconi has already had the opportunity to make reforms in the past. He actually made some reforms, if you can qualify ancien regime restoration as reform. The only "reform" that he was unable to implement at the time of his second tenure was the constitutional reform wince it was defeated by the national referendum in June 2006. Bossi's racist federalism will be once again shoved down Italy's throat.

His self-serving "reform" of the judiciary branch went into effect during the Prodi government. Prodi and his Minister of Justice, Clemente Mastella, did nothing to block the "reform." Now that Berlusconi is back, the reform will be fully implemented. This includes periodical examination of all judges and prosecutors, including their mental equilibrium, as if they had to re-graduate every three years. The Judiciary Branch in Italy as of last night can be considered totally deprived of any power of checks and balances. It will no longer be a separate power. It will only serve for throwing petty criminals and drug addicts in overflowing jails.

The reform of telecommunications, the so-called Gasparri Law, has been struck down by the EU as violating European law. Despite a daily fine for not changing it, that reform will continue to allow and reinforce Berlusconi's monopoly of the media.

Berlusconi's past reform of education was in line with that of the Kansas State Board of Education. Darwin was banned from elementary school, blithely branded as dangerous for young minds. Berlusconi then backed down over public outcry over Darwin. But tomorrow? His so-called reform also included qualifying teachers in Catholic schools as equivalent to public school teachers, an outrage to secular society. They simply don't have the qualifications. The fact that unqualified Catholic teachers can pass over to the public school system to "teach" is an assault on the state and education. The mafia boss and senator, Marcello Dell'Utri, asserted the other day a typical Berlusconi meme: to rewrite history books for the schools. Nolte and Irving will do the job. The Nazi sympathizer, now Berlusconi Senator, Giuseppe Ciarrapico (and perpetually on the lamb for fraudulent bankruptcy), is known for translating and publishing Nazi memoirs and ideological writings.

Today the FT has put up an article asserting that Berlusconi has veered right by cutting out the moderate Catholics. Nothing could be farther from the truth. In Italian politics, moderate Catholics are a contingency, a group put there as mock representation. The Vatican is extreme right wing. It could care less about the Italian State or the unity of Italy, so long as it can rip off untold billions with their malarkey. Berlusconi is their best ally, just as Mussolini was. Moderate Catholics are inconsequental.

I'm afraid the Deutsche Well TV and the FT are superficial.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 04:37:52 AM EST
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Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (none / 1)

No, I mean yes, but that's not it. 'Reform' in the MSM means economic 'reforms'.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 04:42:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (none / 1)

Then again. Prodi, together with Padoa-Scoppa, Visco and Bersani started economic reform. It was virulently contested and sabotaged by the rightwing. Does the DW TV have no memory? Do you expect this power group to implement the Prodi reforms praised by Almunia? I don't.

The probable Minister of Economy, Giulio Tremonti, is no more than Berlusconi's private accountant, an ante-diluvium protectionist. He will, as always, do everything to make Berlusconi richer. Tremonti gave us the de-criminalization of many financial crimes such as falsifying the balance. With precedents like this, can investors be expected to work in Italy?

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 at 05:06:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (4.00 / 3)

The Rainbow Left wiped out? Didn't expect the Socialists to return any deputies, but a parliament without the Left is a massive change. Is this the death of the Left, or will they regroup (and merge) outside parliament?

by Free Socialist on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 06:15:55 PM EST

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (none / 1)

It's going to be a long winter to New Hampshire.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 06:34:08 PM EST
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Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (4.00 / 2)

That's incredibly depressing - Italy elects a clown and a criminal, and throws out the relatively sane people.

Was this voter fraud or a genuine swing? If it was a swing, what did the Left do wrong?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Apr 14th, 2008 at 07:00:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Italian Elections Open Thread (4.00 / 5)

de Gondi--noble work!

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.