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PostCommunist, NeoEuropean elections: some thoughts on Romanian local elections

by pereulok Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 at 03:40:09 PM EST

I've been living in Romania since last February, trying, amongst other things, to understand the national political system, ideology, civic culture... It's quite complicated (and risky) to draw opinions on any country's social life, being new, being an outsider. Anyhow...

This Sunday (1st June) there were local elections (first round, second round when needed, as happened in Bucharest, will be held on 15th June); national elections will be held in the Autumn.

That means that I have suffered a colourful election in a city split into 6 municipalities, every one with its mayor, plus a general mayor to be elected. Imagine that one side of the Thames is ruled by one chap, and the other side by other... That's Bucharest. Now, imagine you have to decide on the future of the bus that links both riversides... That's Bucharest.


[editor's note, by Migeru] Fold inserted here

Anyway... Colourful: 7-8 parties with enough money to campaign around, with coulourful posters (red, three types of red, a bright yellow, light blue...). Political programs? I couldn't find real proposals on their webpages: all candidates belonged to the "I'm not going to steal like them, I'm green, I'm near you" party. A colourful political circus. By the way, if you want to meet the clown, I recommend to you a wiki-reading: Gigi Becali

Meanwhile the actors in the construction playfield where I'm currently involved professionally were quiet but moving: either getting their projects signed before change, or waiting for the goddamned elections to see some movement in all the projects that had been paralized since February-March. That's usual local and national politics, by the way, not just typical Romanian here.

So here we are: 1st of June ended, new mayors here, new mandates for old ones there, second round stand-byes now and then... In the news, a lot of data reading, some scandals (localised poll problems) that seemed bigger on TV as they repeated it all over and over again. Low rate of political analysis, appart from some Traian Basescu (President) vs. Calin Popescu (Prime Minister) never-ending discussion. So, without any local commentator that I trust yet (blame my ignorance), I'm still left on my own on this.

So, let's back up to the data, at least one clear data point. National electoral turnout: 46,59%. Bucharest electoral turnout: less than 35%.

I'm not boring you with theories on first-rate elections and second-rate elections... I will just tell you that I was most surprised by such a low participation, and the lack of reaction on such a low participation, that must be thus considered as normal here. Either Romanians don't think of local elections as first-rate, important ones, or they doesn't feel any personal implication in the system... or both.

I only know that such a result would be a great scandal in Spain, and I hope that not only in Spain, but in some other countries... Here it isn't.

Post-Communist Romania is different from other Post-Communist countries (e.g. Russia) where people might vote more, but anyway to a large extent vote for the government option, without considering that there's a choice.... However, Romanian political culture, quite the opposite, doesn't seem much more possitive to me...

And I then I began thinking about those that lost their illusion in "regular" democracy and ask for abstention, saying that the day nobody goes voting the change will come, political class will change, and so on.
I'm not myself in a "God bless liberal democracy" mood lately, quite disappointed by so many things, but I was thinking these days... If someday in Spain only 30% of electors go to vote, shall it be the scandal we hope, or will it be the end of a growing apathy process, life going on and no change at all? Because I have just read that this is the worst participation rate since 1989 in Romania, and life does go on, too much.

Dunno, yet today my most pessimistic views prevail. I wish you all better thoughts.


Click on the map for larger version.

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That means that I have suffered a colourful elections in a city split into 6 municipalities, everyone with its mayor, plus a general mayor to be elected. Imagine that one side of the Thames is ruled by one chap, and the other side by other... That's Bucharest. Now, imagine you have to decide on the future of the bus that links both riversides... That's Bucharest.
Imagine that Greater London were divided into 33 boroughs, each with its local council, (executive) council leader and (ceremonial) mayor. Imagine, however, that public transport were under control of a city-wide Greater London Assembly with its own (executive) mayor, and that in the recent mayoral elections on May 1st the turnout for the election of the powerful Mayor of London was 45% up from 37% in 2004 which was also not considered a scandal.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 at 04:29:04 PM EST
So sad. The funniest thing will be then that we do have in Spain a healthy democracy... It's like the old man that's always complaining on his health but survive grandsons!

"If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none." (Fahrenheit 451)
by pereulok on Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 at 04:37:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
By the way, I think Madrid could benefit from having each of the 21 districts elect its own concejal de distrito instead of voting for 57 councillors on a single party list vote and letting the winning party appoint a concejal the distrito having nothing to do with the distrito.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 at 04:40:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Imagine that the place where "Parisians" live, the region Ile de France, were divided into 8 départements themselves divided into 1281 communes (About a fourth actually urbanised and should be part of Greater Paris). Each of these administrative units have a president or mayor and from nine to 209 councillors. Except for the département of Paris itself, which is also a commune, but is also divided into 20 arrondissments each having mayor and councillors.

Well, public transport is under the control of a specific administrative body, the STIF, where some of the earlier régions and département are represented, but which doesn't actually finance all infrastructure building nor operates the buses itself. To build a tramway line agreement with financing must be reached with the concerned communes, départements, région, the French State, the operator (RATP, SNCF, and a few others), and also possibly if applicable the Communauté de communes.

Oh, I hadn't told you about the Communautés de communes ? In the rest of France this kind of administrative unit unites (in a relatively non-democratic way) a large city and the surrounding suburbs. Not so in Paris, where because of the number of départements this is unthinkable. So some of the communes of the suburbs have taken to unite in Communautés... Each having a president and councillors, too.

Oh, and it's also different for water, waste disposal, etc..., where various Syndics usually cover parts of Greater Paris.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 at 06:43:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Madrid is beginning to sound like a model of Germanic efficiency and rationality...

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 3rd, 2008 at 06:52:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, on this front, multiple levels of self-government would just be the German thing. Vs. the French tradition of centralisation, and the same persons having mayoral and MP/senator/ministerial offices.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 11:22:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Except that, from what Linca says about Paris, what you said about budapest and what pereulok said about Moscow, it's beginning to look as if Madrid with its centralised local administration is an anomaly among European metropoles.

I wonder whether nanne can shed some light on Berlin's local administration.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 02:26:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Boroughs and localities of Berlin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Berlin is both a city and one of Germany's federal states. It is made up of twelve boroughs (Bezirke in German, also known as districts or administrative districts in English), each with its own borough government, though all boroughs are subject to Berlin's city and state government.

These boroughs also have mayors and parliaments. They mainly have administrative tasks, though.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 at 12:59:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In fact, when Romanian "fathers of Constitution" designed the system back in the nineties, they were in love with French system... You know, they belong to the Francophonie and so on. So they have cohabitation, they have centralised regional system, they have... The problem is not being inspired by a system, but to copy it, because every country has its needs and its particularities. Here, for example, a big-big problem is to decentralize decision power and even management... so I'm not quite convinced that French system will help much. And they do have national minorities (20%), which not respect current boubdaries: hungarians, germans, some turkish tatars... and of course gipsies (tsigany), these ones, scattered all over the country, 5%, sb told me, and increaisng, but I must check...

Regarding metropolis, it seems, for what you both say, that Bucharest case is the usual one in big, macro cities, with many inhabitants... A good issue to discuss, how to handle 10 million inhabitants and a big ammount of square kilometres... I must make some research on this, I have no idea, but I´m sure that there must be people working on it...

"If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none." (Fahrenheit 451)

by pereulok on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 02:55:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What do you know about Moscow's local government? It's the largest metropolitan area West of the Urals.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 03:15:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One octopus-like Mayor, of course. It's Russia! A big boss as President (well, now a President and a shadow), and a big boss in every region. Not leaving the seat until death (or alcoholic decease, Yeltsin case)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuriy_Luzhkov

(Member of United Russi, the pro-Putin party, but a character by himself locally)

Regarding management... No idea. Work better than Bucharest but...

"If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none." (Fahrenheit 451)

by pereulok on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 05:16:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The "sectors" are probably influenced by the Parisian "arrondissements", but they were created in 1926, not after the Revolution. And, frankly, I do not understand why you find so peculiar to have they own mayors and councils given that they have populations comparable with those of the counties ("judete"). The system is quite centralized, however, the main power is still in the hand of general mayor and council.

Deni

by Deni on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 at 11:16:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
a city split into 6 municipalities, every one with its mayor, plus a general mayor to be elected. Imagine that one side of the Thames is ruled by one chap, and the other side by other...

Well, at one time Thatcher dissolved Greater London entirely. Compared to that... Also, many other cities have different levels of self-government; my former hometown Budapest has 23 districts, and each of the districts and the entirety of the capital has its mayors.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 11:13:18 AM EST
The Mayor of Paris wasn't elected until 1977 ; and the Seine département which would have been the proper basis for a Greater Paris was dissolved in the 1960's when it appeared such it would be voting left wing, whereas the present situation has Paris (formerly) and Hauts-de-Seine (Where Sarkozy used to be president) nicely voting right wing - and also the wealthier départements ; whereas the left-wing voters ended up in the poorer départements of Seine-Saint-Denis and Val-de-Marne...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 12:05:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Summarized preliminary results of votes for parties, for all above 0.5% (all of which have some relevance):

  1. PD-L (Democratic Liberal Party, a union of the semi-neocon PD - more defined by loyalty to President Băsescu - and PNL, the even more conservative pro-Băsescu breakaway from the national-liberals): 30.42%
  2. PSD (Social Democrats, post-reformed-communists created by former President Iliescu): 28.01%
  3. PNL (National Liberals, those faithful to PM Popescu-Tăriceanu): 19.36%
  4. UDMR/RMDSz (Democratic Union of Hungarians in Romania): 4.39%
  5. PC (Conservative Party, social-conservatives): 3.45%
  6. PNG-CD (New Generation Party-Christian Democratic, Becali's hyper-populist one-man outfit): 2.98%
  7. PRM (Greater Romania Party, ultra-far-right around Corneliu Vadim Tudor): 2.55%
  8. Independents: 2.42%
  9. PNŢ-CD (Christian-Democratic National Peasants' Party): 0.96%
  10. Alianţa pentru Timiş (Alliance for Timiş region, involving PNL, PNŢ-CD, FDGR): 0.83%
  11. PCM/MPP (Hungarian Civic Party, a more nationalist challenger to RMDSz): 0.74%
  12. FDGR (Democratic Forum of Germans in Romania): 0.72%
  13. PIN (National Initiative Party): 0.65%
  14. PNDC (National Democratic Christian Party): 0.54%

In first-round votes for mayor of 3183 municipalities, 1471 remain to be decided in the second round, while those already decided break differently from above:
  1. PSD: 662
  2. PD-L: 473
  3. PNL: 355
  4. UDMR/RMDSz: 148
  5. Independent: 15
  6. Alianţa pentru Timiş: 14
  7. PC: 10
  8. FDGR: 8
  9. PNDC: 7
  10. PCM/MPP: 6
  11. PRM: 3


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 12:32:24 PM EST
One local issue of these local elections was the intra-Hungarian-ethnic rivalry. I mentioned this in my diary on the 2007 EP mid-term elections and then in reply to a comment by marco, but first here's a recap.

RMDSz used to gather all streams of political movements based among ethnic Hungarians. It was stable enough to be in the position of kingmaker, joining or supporting from the outside successive governments. However, on one hand, such cooperation with the also nationalist (Romanian-nationalist) main parties didn't result in the fulfillment of most of its programme (the thorniest issue being territorial autonomy at least for the Szeklers, who make up that almost homogenous Hungarian-speaking area in the middle of the country that is all green on pereulok's map). On the other hand, the main right-wing, currently opposition party Fidesz (official full name: Fidesz-MPP!) in Hungary wanted and wants to build a power base among ethnic Hungarians abroad to strengthen its nationalist credentials. Thus more hardcore groups broke off RMDSz, and their rival movements ultimately coalesced in the Szekler-land-based MPP (same acronym as Fidesz's by-name). Despite initial successes, MPP and its precursors failed to eclipse the RMDSz, so after a long tussle over the effect of splitting votes, the two made an agreement: they'll run against each other in the local elections; but in the parliamentary elections, they'll run on a joint list, weighed according to their local elections success.

Even while MPP ran at fewer places (in mayoral candiates, 60% less), the above results show a spectacular failure: 4.39% vs. 0.74% in council votes, 148 vs. 6 first-round mayors. Also, RMDSz won 4 county presidents while MPP won none, and RMDSz can send 78 mayoral candidates into the second round, MPP only 13.

So RMDSz again feels free to attack MPP and its backer in Hungary loudly for undercutting the 'common cause'. They point out that RMDSz would have won a fifth county, would its candidate have received the 2,000 votes for MPP's candidate.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 12:54:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It seems there's some co-opting of Hungarian leaders by other parties, including them in their ranks. Public Works Ministry is of Hungarian descent, by the way.

Funny enough, once I was talking with someone here in Romania about the Ministry's policies, and he just said, "he´s Hungarian, you know". It was a business meeting, couldn´t start a free discussion, so I´m still wondering what should I know, exactly... Maybe in some months I´ll find out.

"If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none." (Fahrenheit 451)

by pereulok on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 at 04:15:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No need to wait months. Not if you know "he's a Basque, you know", "he's a Catalan, you know", and other variations.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 at 07:00:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You don't get that kind of comment about a housing minister.

I guess if you want to see it that way, we'd have to ask you how Romanians stereotype Hungarians. (For instance, Catalans, like Scots, are stereotyped as penny-pinchers)

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 at 07:04:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You don't get that kind of comment about a housing minister.

In public, or in private?

For instance, Catalans, like Scots, are stereotyped as penny-pinchers

That's merry-go-stereotyping, not negative stereotyping. In negative stereotyping, there are some specialities, but the overall themes are the same: crooked, arrogant, lacking in culture, deviant in sex etc.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 at 07:09:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I dug up this for you, based on polls conducted by a sociologist in the middle of the nineties:

The dashed line is a poll of Hungarians on Romanians, the solid line the opposite. From top to bottom:

  • intelligent
  • educated
  • engaging in politics (note: this is a threat)
  • self-conscious (note: this is a threat)
  • patriotic (note: this is a threat)
  • honest
  • hard-working
  • friendly
  • good sense of humour
  • popular

You see a similar pattern, even if the Hungarians-about-Romanians attitudes were throughout much worse at the time (today, I don't know; but I think both lines would be more to the left). As a contrast, here are the views on the own nation - an almost perfect match:



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 at 07:31:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is the Hungarians-about-Romanians attitude worse because the Hungarians identify their Romanian minority with Gypsies?

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 at 07:39:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As I said, these attitudes can safely be assumed to be time-dependent (since 1997, I think there was first an improvement and then a worsening of views again - in both countries/ethnics), so I'm not sure there is a general trend here.

However, the ethnic Romanian minority in Hungary is very small and not too exposed, so if at all, it's the opposite: identifying members of the Gypsy minority in Hungary with ethnic-Romanian-Romanians. The picture gets more complicated if you consider (1) Romanian Gypsies who immigrated in Hungary (as I wrote, a distinction that is made), and (2) Romanian Romanians who came (come?) as guest workers to do the lowliest jobs, often on the black market (chiefly farm work, but there were infamous 'human markets' in cities, where smugglers or the guest workers themselves would sell smuggled people/themselves in practice like slaves to employers, except the employees came on their own to earn something).

But I think the negative stereotyping of Romanians by ethnic Hungarians (and vice versa) has a longer history of its own, and its nurturing has more to do with the living memory of the border change 90 years (and 70 years) ago. What could be special is that prior to WWI in Transsylvania, the elites were ethnic German and Hungarian, while almost all ethnic Romanians only suffered serfdom, thus class prejudice was combined with the nationalist one.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 at 09:04:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Plus, of course, there is relative GDP per capita and relative wealth.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 at 09:15:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Very, very interesting charts...

"If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none." (Fahrenheit 451)
by pereulok on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 at 08:16:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I forgot to mention two things:

  • In best sociologist tradition, the author (original article in Hungarian) failed to explain what the scale at the bottom stands for, but one can safely assume from context that 4.0 is the neutral opinion.

  • This was based on a narrow poll of students. Views in other segments of the two populations might be somewhat to much worse.


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 at 08:47:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
failed to explain what the scale at the bottom

Not anywhere near the diagrams, but just found it: the polled were asked to rate on a scale with seven grades (must be 1 to 7).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 at 09:34:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It seems there's some co-opting of Hungarian leaders by other parties, including them in their ranks.

Yes. However, voters are another thing. In this election, RMDSz and MPP together got 434,593 votes. Now, starting from 1,431,807 ethnic-Hungarians in the last census, using the ratio of total number of voters on voter lists and total population (17.8 million/22.3 million), we get 1.14 million ethnic Hungarian eligible voters. With a 49.61% participation, one can project around 567,000 ethnic Hungarian voters. So voting has been pretty much along ethnic lines, and the above calculation doesn't even consider the 'loss' of guest workers abroad (2 million total, if proportional, that would mean 132,000 ethnic Hungarian Romanians off the eligible voter number).

(Ethnic Hungarians voting for national parties is more common in Slovakia.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 at 10:39:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There were reportedly more irregularities than ever before: attempts at double voting, campaign on election day, insufficient number of ballots at places, 'lost' ballots and official seals. The PM himself voted with his  voter card - according to current regulations, his ID card is needed. (But it was only the big loser of the vote, the far-right, demanded the annullation of the entire election.)

The above mentioned ethnic Hungarian rivals 'excelled' in uncovering each others' campaign silence breaks, too.

Then there is the mayoral election in the city of Târgu Mureş (Hungarian: Marosvásárhely, German: Neumarkt am Mieresch). In that city, the vote was always ethnicity-based: most of the time, the national parties ran in coalition against RMDSz. This time, too. And RMDSz filed a complaint allenging and allegedly documenting extensive vote manipulation: break of campaign silence in all on-site media (think of loudspeakers in cars, telephones), bus transport for Gypsies living on the edge of town, stealing the camera of a journalist filming the illegal campaign (with police present not intervening), multiple, seal-less and mising ballots, voters being told they already voted, hindering the work of the independent observers, campaigning exit pollsters, non-joint ballot counting. (I wonder how much of the evidence is solid, but it is said to consist of photographs and videos.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jun 4th, 2008 at 01:09:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don´t know if there were more irregularities than in others before (by the way, the PM made an official statement saying he voted with his ID like everyone else... don´t know if we must believe in him).

What I see is that they make a lot of coverage in TV on a pair of cases, and no serious analysis on outcomes at all, or even serious reaction on irregularities (next steps to solve problems and get better system).

And likealways: you see the images of a village in Ilfov, near Bucharest, where elections must to be done again because there was a quarrel and the poll was closed half the day... Stefanesti, is the place:

http://www.nineoclock.ro/index.php?page=detalii&categorie=politics&id=20080605-509429

When they show images at TV, they are all gipsies. The typical thing: Romanian TV focusing on "mess" done by gipsies. That way, Romanian non-gipsy people can keep thinking that the issue doesn´t concern them. The same as Romanian gipsies prosecution in Italia/Spain... As far as gipsies are the victims, it doesn´t seem a big problem here. They don´t seem to notice that not reacting they image as people and as country is at risk, as in Italy/Spain is Romanian, not gipsies, what is said to be a problem by some... not making differences...

"If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none." (Fahrenheit 451)

by pereulok on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 at 04:13:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wish I could say something positive... but I can only say: you have met Central/Southeastern European majority racism, and you won't see anything better. (Before EU accession, here in Hungary, I had to listen to a guy exclaiming that the obstacles to EU accession would be no more if all the Gypsies would be deported across the Eastern borders, and this absurdity met approval in the room...)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 at 07:06:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey, that reminds me a typical comment round here: ïn Spain there's a lot of Romanian people, and many gipsies form Romania, blah blah blah...". Answer "joke": "hey, if you want moe, you can take all of them!Enjoy!". Very usual, this comment. Your chart frates very low Romanian sense of humour :):):) (forgetting problematic issues, they are funny and very amiable, by the way)

"If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none." (Fahrenheit 451)
by pereulok on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 at 08:21:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is from before EU accession and the flood of Romanian guest workers into Spain, and much less imformative than the graphs upthread, but the article I mentioned also has this:

The solid line represents a poll of Spanish students (the other two: Belgian and Slovenian). The questions were: "Is trait X more typical of Romanians or Hungarians?" The five traits asked:

  • intelligent
  • hard-working
  • educated
  • patriotic
  • friendly

The graph probably more signifies lack of knowledge and stereotypes to be applied. For comparison, the same question about Hungarians vs. Germans:



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 at 09:12:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To be honest, I am not sure what the point is of asking Spanish students (in Spain, I presume?) to characterize the Hungarians... and even about Romanians, though there were some Romanian immigrants even before the recent mass flow of guest workers. In the same vein, the second chart is more of a question of "how ... are the Germans?" than a comparison.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 at 09:18:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As I said, not too informative. But I checked; the author had a justification: he wanted to test whether there is an East-West gradation of opinions (in reaction to another researcher finding a North-South one).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 at 09:37:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Speaking of the far-right PRM's big loss. Gheorghe Funar (who joined up with Tudor in the PRM some election cycles ago) was Cluj-Napoca's insane mayor from the first elections after the revolution to 2004. And now, he only got 4.2%! When he looks like a madman on his own election placards, no wonder:



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 at 10:52:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just in: the Romanian Football Association ruled that extravagant millionaire, football club owner, and populist politician Gigi Becali is forbidden to enter any football stadion in Romania for two years, while his football club was barred from international events and got a four-point reduction.

The occasion: a month ago, anti-corruption units caught a functionary of Steauea (runners-up in this years' national championship) as he was about to hand over €1.7 million to a player of a small team for winning against Steaua's rival for championship, on assignment from club owner Becali.

The judicial trial for corruption is still in the future.

In Italy and the ex-East-Bloc, this is not yet a guarantee for the end of a career...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 at 09:49:09 AM EST
Nor in Spain. Though in those two cases the career never included polling at 15% of voter intent for a national election.

When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done. — John M. Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 at 09:57:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nor in France. And Bernard Tapie did poll around 15% at a national (European Parliament) election...


Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 at 11:50:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, I forgot about Tapie.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Jun 5th, 2008 at 01:55:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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