Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.

Obama in Berlin

by jandsm Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 at 07:57:20 AM EST

Apparently, Barack Obama will hold a campaign rally in the German capital Berlin. As most of you know, there was a debate on whether he should be allowed to give a speech in front of the Brandenburg Gate right on the newly finished Pariser Platz. Charles Krauthammer, as BarbinMd correctly pointed out, turned the Brandenburg Gate into a holy shrine, which "you earn".

Well, as a German, let me point out: it is a holy shrine. Which is why they had it wrapped for 4 years with T-mobile advertisment only to have it reopened by Bill Clinton in front of 200,000 celebrating Berlin citizens. But anyway, anybody who has lived to see the Berlin Wall, anybody who has been to West Berlin while is was an island of hope in an ocean of oppression, knows what it means to be able to walk through it and why it was there that on the night of November 9th, 1989 people stormed the Wall. And it was not because of Ronald Reagan, whose speech is not part of the collective German memory.

Promoted by afew


I do feel a bit uncomfortable for this central part of the German capital being used for a campaign event. But it wouldn't be the first time: throughout the Weimar Republic era, it was a place of political demonstration because marching through it meant the symbol of occupying the governing district of Berlin. Which is why on January 30th, 1933 the Nazis marched through the gate to the Reichschancellery in the nearby Wilhelmsstrasse.

The open gate symbolizes a lot: the end of German seperation, the Reunification, the end of the Cold War, and it is the backdrop for every welcoming of a German soccer (correctly: football) team.

So, as I read today, a compromise has been reached on the location of Obama's speech: He will give it on the Western side of the Gate and on what is Called "Großer Stern" close to the Siegessäule, the Berlin victory column.

Of all places in Berlin, I think this is the worst. First of all, this square will not look full below 100,000 visitors, second, blocking it will put to halt Berlin's central East-West road, possibly causing traffic jam throughout the central part of the city, and third, though the Brandenburg Gate is in sight, the speech will have moved from a monument for liberty to a rotten monument for militarism and war.

The Siegessäule was built to remember the German victory against France in the war of 1871. A war in which Prussia defeated France and created the German Empire, a unification based on "blood and iron" as Bismarck called it. Putting hard reparation obligations on France and confiscating the Alsace region, led to a constant conflict, finally causing the outbreak of the First World War.

As Barack Obama will face the crowd, he shall take a look around at all the statues of the Prussian generals like Roon and even Bismarck who are standing there, rotting in the rain. So if he gives a speech there, it should be one about peace and cooperation aware of the fact that the golden canons on the column were taken from occupied France in order to humilate France and to perpetuate the illusion of permanent German military dominance in Europe.

One should also know that "Siegessäule" is the title of Berlin's largest gay monthly newspaper.

This being said, I am proud that Obama chose Berlin for his speech. When he finishes itr, he should take a small walk from the Siegessäule to the Brandenburg Gate, walk to the right and visit the Memorial for the Murdered Jews in Europe. Then he should turn around and should walk through the Gate - something which was impossible for so many years...

As for Charles Krauthammer's theory: It may be shrine, but once you walk through it and feel the spirit of liberty and democracy you can drown your memories of Ronald Reagan in the Starbuck's coffee store right next to it.... In the end, it is just a gate.

Display:
for crossposting here.

The diary is also on dKos: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/7/18/91429/0163/922/547251

by Fran on Fri Jul 18th, 2008 at 10:00:55 AM EST
Setting aside the debate over whether Obama should speak at the gate or not, Krauthammer is an asshole.  His column is a beautiful illustration of the Villge mentality.  "We decide who gets to do what and where."  I'm curious to know what, exactly, Reagan did to "earn" giving a speech at the gate.  Reagan wouldn't be fit to shine Obama's shoes if he were alive today, let alone Kennedy's.

The Siegessäule is as good a place as any, I suppose, but why not just give a speech at any non-critical intersection, addressing ordinary Germans instead of some big show at the Siegessäule?  That would be a lot more visually appealing to me.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Jul 18th, 2008 at 10:06:46 AM EST
I confess to agreeing with the idea that this is a mere campaign event and that the Brandenburg gate, given how JFK made it iconic, should be reserved for historic events; which this is blatantly not.

And if that's the case, any speech in Berlin becomes overshadowed by where he isn't, so he shouldn't give one in the City at all.

But what do I know ? This is all about campaign photo opportunities.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Jul 18th, 2008 at 10:32:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I quite agree that the Brandenburg Gate should be reserved for historic speeches, and that this one will almost certainly not qualify.

And only those few politicians -- willing to affirm that they, too, are jelly donuts -- should be allowed. /snark

My opinion on whether he gives a speech in Germany or not depends on how many people will show up for it.  If it's going to be many, I say he should go for it, because it'd be helpful for people abroad to make their feelings known (so long as they're on our side, of course).  If not many, skip it.

I don't know how the German public feels well enough to gauge it.  I've read, from people in Germany and those outside of it with some knowledge, that it'd draw a pretty big crowd, but I'm also left thinking, "Surely our election can't be that interesting to people over there."

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Jul 18th, 2008 at 10:54:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm also left thinking, "Surely our election can't be that interesting to people over there."

Your ickle lickle election has consequences for every person on the planet. The president of the United States and their prejudices/opinions creates the political environment that colours damn near every decision on the planet. From which wars we have, what price we pay for stuff, what happens to our environment, heck, even down to whether there will be ice in Greenland in 50 years time, it's all down to who sits in the Oval office.

Damn right we're interested. You and yours have screwed up mightily last two times. We're losing patience, McCain is not an option.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Jul 18th, 2008 at 11:22:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Interested enough for a hundred thousand people to pile in and make for a good photo-op?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Jul 18th, 2008 at 11:32:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Dunno, free beer might help

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Jul 18th, 2008 at 12:47:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He can speak at St. James' Gate in Dublin if he wants.  (Site of Guinness Brewery).

Or anywhere else for that matter - and draw a big crowd.

Mandela spoke at the Mansion House, The Pope in Phoenix Park, Clinton in front of Trinity College.  All got a rousing welcome.  If he promises to end rendition flights Obama will get one too.

"It's a mystery to me - the game commences, For the usual fee - plus expenses, Confidential information - it's in my diary..."

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Jul 18th, 2008 at 12:54:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
27 thousand megaton is a good motivator...

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 at 11:36:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And what do you mean McCain is not an option?  Y'all should love him.  He's old enough to tell you stories of the Siegessäule being built.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Jul 18th, 2008 at 11:39:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As far as I'm concerned, presidents or similar should be elected by the popolations of adversary nations, or ideally drawn by lot with a solid betting system to go along.

In the worst of cases I'm for forced massive population exchanges with full citizenry rights in the packet.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 at 08:11:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's how we choose colleagues in academia.

Only someone on the inside can reveal that he was the 3rd choice all along, and he won the job simply because he was the least objectionable (read mediocre) candidate available.

UpstateNY, PhD.

by Upstate NY on Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 at 12:48:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not aware that there was a debate, if Obama should be allowed to speak at the Brandenburg gate.

After complaints by the current US administration our chancellor office announced 'only limited understanding' and 'skepticism about pursuing such plans', but has made perfectly clear, that a decision is not to make on the federal level. No word about forbidding anything.
So if Obama would have insisted on using the Brandenburg gate, he most likely could have done so. It was his decision to use another place.

Furthermore I think Merkel's protest was only for the reason, that Americans don't perceive Germany as partisan in the US election. I have doubts, that Merkel really has a problem with Obama speaking at the Brandenburg gate. Speaking there is nothing you have to earn in Germany (see Westerwelle's 'Piesepampel' comment), but in the US. And being elected president qualifies for that.

And with the visitors, I think there will be the 100,000+ visitors.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri Jul 18th, 2008 at 10:30:04 AM EST
The article you refer to and which you gave us earlier: FAZ.

However, I would be surprised if you didn't heard any of the lesser Union politicians using stronger language, and the reaction from SPD guys. Even FOCUS titles its article Koalition: Streit um Obama-Rede verschärft sich ( = [Governing] Coalition: fight over Obama speech intensifies).

Say, there was CSU boss Huber, who spoke as if only people with a role in Reunification have a right to speak there. He attacked foreign minister Franz-Walter Steinmeier/SPD (who praised Berlin's decision) for "chumming up to a likely favourite".

For the SPD's part, party secretary Hubertus Heil reminded in reaction to talk about a campaign event that Merkel herself campaigned in the USA during the 2002 federal elections of Germany.

I have doubts, that Merkel really has a problem with Obama speaking at the Brandenburg gate.

Me too. But she has to please the more Republican-oriented Atlanticists in the CDU/CSU.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Jul 18th, 2008 at 01:07:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The main fight was between the mayor, who is apparently a big fan of Obama, and Merkel, who was sheepish about the whole thing, isn't it?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Jul 18th, 2008 at 01:17:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Merkel's part in public was more or less what Martin wrote. I will write about the Berlin major and a mini background in two comments downthread.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Jul 18th, 2008 at 01:42:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When I first head of the Obama speech, I felt bad about it. [German] media star Obama is an almost perfect Aushängeschild (c. figurehead) for German Atlanticists, and with them numbering high in German media, Schröder's rebellion over Iraq could prove not a turning point, but a footnote in the history of the vassaldom of the German political-economic-media elite (and thus, by and large, the country) to the USA...

This was bothersome to my anti-Atlanticist self on one hand because of where Obama might (want to) lead his European fans. You wrote:

Of all places in Berlin, I think this is the worst. ... and third, though the Brandenburg Gate is in sight, the speech will have moved from a monument for liberty to a rotten monument for militarism and war.

Well, I think that's just right for any viable US Presidential candidate today, including Obama. See this from the SPIEGEL English article 'Tough Love' Expected in Obama's Berlin Speech:

At the same time the senator from Illinois must take care not to seem overly pro-European. Many Democrats still recall how their presidential candidate John Kerry four years ago gushed about his good reputation in Europe only to be successfully and pejoratively labelled as "European" by the Republicans as a result.

"We are aware of that risk," said the advisor. "A voter in North Dakota doesn't care much for the trans-Atlantic agenda. He would rather ask: What is Obama planning to do for me?"

 It's therefore unlikely that Obama will wax lyrical about Europe's leadership on combating climate change or health insurance. And he won't shy away from some "tough love" in his speech, said the advisor, noting that he would spell out clearly that Europe needs to assume more international responsibility, especially in Afghanistan, and perhaps in Iraq as well.

...and then there was the glee of Atlanticists in advance. The worst bit:

Koalition: Streit um Obama-Rede verschärft sich - Deutschland - FOCUS Online Coalition: Controversy over Obama speech intensifies - Germany - FOCUS Online
Der Koordinator der Bundesregierung für deutsch-amerikanische Zusammenarbeit, Karsten Voigt (SPD), schlägt über den Streit hinaus vor, ,,dass wir künftig jedem US-Präsidentschaftskandidaten anbieten, nach Deutschland und Berlin zu kommen". Er ,,wäre glücklich, wenn wir eine solche Tradition begründen könnten", sagte Voigt zu FOCUS. Denn bei Deutschen wie US-Amerikanern sei das ,,Freiheitssymbol Brandenburger Tor tief verankert".Karsten Voigt (SPD), the coordinator of the [German] federal government for German-American cooperation, proposes beyond the dispute "that we should offer every US presidential candidate to come to Germany and Berlin". He "would be happy if we could establish such a tradition", Voigt said to FOCUS. Because for Germans like for Americans, "the freedom symbol Brandenburg Gate is anchored deeply".

So if Britain is the 51st state, Germany will give the 52st-67th states?...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Jul 18th, 2008 at 01:41:28 PM EST
The Obama speech issue got more interesting for me when it turned from foreign policy into a German domestic politics issue (well, kinda').

One thing I love about German politics is its entertainment value; fuelled mainly by politicians' predilection for rhetorical hyperbole and use of rare edgy words (you may have noticed in my diaries). A more severe case of this is when politicians try to fill the summer news drought - AFAIK English has the word "silly season" for this, but the German equivalent Sommertheater ( = summer theatre) seems stronger and much more in use.

I wanted to write a diary with this title (had no time); but in the meantime, CSU foreign policy specialist Karl-Theodor Freiherr beat me to it to describe the fight over the Obama speech.

This seems much ado about nothing. Then again, it is also about campaigning - campaigning for elections in Germany. Merkel inadvertedly gave the SPD an opportunity to catch the Union flat-footed, and hunt for voters as The Pro-Obama Party when everyone is crazy about Obama. Now, the next elections in Germany are the regional elections in Bavaria (28 September), where CSU looks to have its supermajority reduced - which explains why it was Huber who reacted most strongly (see my reply to Martin upthread).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Jul 18th, 2008 at 02:03:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One thing I love about German politics is its entertainment value; fuelled mainly by politicians' predilection for rhetorical hyperbole and use of rare edgy words (you may have noticed in my diaries). A more severe case of this is when politicians try to fill the summer news drought - AFAIK English has the word "silly season" for this, but the German equivalent Sommertheater ( = summer theatre) seems stronger and much more in use.

Ah, gotcha.

But Merkel being perceived as getting in Obama's way could actually be a German electoral issue?

Just to refresh my memory, help me out here: The SPD is the socialist party, and the CSU is basically synonymous at the federal level with the Christian Dems (led by Merkel)?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Jul 18th, 2008 at 02:16:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Close: SPD = Social Democrats, CSU = Christian Socialists; CDU and CSU don't differ in level, instead they are in a permanent alliance based on territorial exclusivity (CSU only in Bavaria, CDU only in the remaining 15 states), and they have a joint faction in the federal parliament.

And yes, when Obama is perceived as a vote-getter, events around him are bound to become a German electoral issue...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Jul 18th, 2008 at 02:34:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And yes, when Obama is perceived as a vote-getter, events around him are bound to become a German electoral issue...

I guess I never would've thought he'd be a vote-getter there.  Reading about public attitudes over there around the Interwebz, maybe the speech is a good idea.  Huh.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Jul 18th, 2008 at 02:51:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I completely agree that Obama is a vote-getter, if his popularity remains high during the next 18 months. But I think as well Obama will mention in his speech the 'necessity' that Europe takes more responsibility in Afghanistan.
This is walking a tightrope. Probably there will be audible objection on this issue from the audience (I think about 80% of Germans would like to withdraw as fast as possible from Afghanistan). Either he will quite strongly insist on that. Which could strongly dampen the effect as a vote-getter. Or he is weak on this, which will mean, that the US media will portray him as incapable of getting European support despite alleged pro-Europeaness.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri Jul 18th, 2008 at 08:12:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, you have it already in your piece of spiegel-online. But this is really a center piece. I can very well live without Obama speaking about health care in the US, and I disagree with spiegel's estimate, that Obama will ask for European responsibility in Iraq.
I guess so far, that Obama will not only disappoint the European left-wing, but will be a disappointment across the political spectrum, unless he becomes much more extreme in turning around US policy in climate change and militarism.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri Jul 18th, 2008 at 08:42:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That about Iraq was written in conditional before Obama's recent policy speech about refocusing from Iraq ( = lost) to Afghanistan ( = still winnable), so certainly, it was a wrong estimation.

Your prediction of public reaction to Obama's expected demands on Europe is shared by Karl-Theodor Freiherr/CSU, whom I cited above with "Sommertheater". (BTW I forgot to make clear: he is also criticising his own camp there, and deviates from the party line.)

Die "neue Begeisterung" der SPD für die USA sei an sich "begrüßenswert", sagte er. Allerdings bleibe abzuwarten, ob sich der "Enthusiasmus erschöpft, wenn Senator Obama in dieser oder einer künftigen Rede einen höheren deutschen Beitrag in internationalen Operationen einfordert".The "new enthusiasm" of the SPD for the USA is "welcome" in itself, he said. However, it remains to be seen whether the "enthusiasm will be exhausted once Senator Obama demands a higher German contribution to international operations in this or any future speech".

As for the German left-wing's, rather than the SPD's reaction, what I wonder about is the position of the Left Party and its voters in general. Perhaps jandsm or Jeffersonian Democrat can tell us more about the mood in the party. Would the Left Party profile itself early on with some criticism of Obama, the eventual disillusion of SPD voters with him that you and Freiherr predict could lead to some shift of balance within the German left-wing.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Jul 19th, 2008 at 01:32:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it's unlikely Obama will go to Berlin and make these kinds of demands about Afghanistan.  That would be presumptuous at this stage of the game, far more so than wanting to speak at Brandenburg Gate.  More likely it'll be a speech about "bringing the world together" and a mix of the usual DFH and KumbayObama stuff.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Jul 19th, 2008 at 10:31:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
well, that'd be fine...

what wouldn't would be some finger-wagging exceptionalist b.s. for the redneck domestic consumption, instrumentalising europe for a purely u.s. agenda.

i wish i could totally trust obama on this, we really need an american president who doesn't pretend to look down on us, (or over-venerate us for that matter!)

on. the. level. please barry. no trumpeted platitudes about how we should do anything. (or we'll tell you where to put yer war)

some tact, m'lad! be an example of a trans-nationalistic global citizen, if you really want us to warm to your cause more than we already do...

waving that tattered global hegemon flag over here will not win you any cookies.

save it for the rubes you need votes from back home, and just be your sweet self.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Jul 19th, 2008 at 10:48:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think, on policy, I'd focus on climate change above anything else.  Something to the effect of, "You've led, and now we're going to meet you halfway."

That would make for a good speech.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Jul 19th, 2008 at 10:54:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would be very surprised, if Obama would say that.
  • US citizens could take it as insult, when a potential American president doesn't speak about "America has to lead", but in terms of following (see e.g. the flag pin debate on how sensitive Americans can react on issues, which can be interpreted critically towards them) // In any case he is not yet US president. So in a way his prime audience is still the US voter.
  • if he just wants to make his German and European followers happy, the KumbayObama (as you called it) will do it perfectly well. I think he can't do much to alienate them, except speaking about Afghanistan. So no need to alienate his voters at home.


Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sat Jul 19th, 2008 at 03:21:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
yeah, that is the most pressing issue, for sure.

i don't need him to be too humble, lol, but simply for him to accent unity and good faith in the same way he does back home.

he has a lot of savvy, i expect he'll finesse this ok.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Jul 19th, 2008 at 03:25:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"I completely agree that Obama is a vote-getter,"

Changing the subject somewhat, now that Clinton is NOT the dem candidate, I can't believe that I'll finally vote in a Presidential election (since Carter) when the choice is NOT between the lesser of two evils.  I actually think we have a shot at a non-evil candidate for once.  IN MY LIFETIME!  Or am I being overly optimistic?

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Sun Jul 20th, 2008 at 08:17:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Either you're too optimistic or I'm too cynical.

Putting him on par with Jimmy Carter is probably not unfair all things considered. Which is still unimpressive, but as recent US presidents go it's a big step forward.

I'm prepared to be surprised, but so far Obama doesn't look like more than a Carter with a snazzier marketing department and the advantage that the other wing of the Corporate Party has shot itself in both feet, a kneecap and one arm with an elephant gun.

Still, Obama is preferable to John "Nuke Iran" McCain.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 at 11:56:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The year is 2001. The Grand Coalition government of German capital Berlin, which also constitutes one of Germany's 16 federal states, was raked by a big corruption and mismanagement scandal chiefly connected to the CDU (which also resulted in record indebtment). The SPD goes into early elections with a barely known grey candidate who is more or less in Schröder's Third Wayist direction.

Then when the candidate held his first big campaign speech before party delegates, he finished with the abrupt coming-out: "...and by the way: I am gay." Then, seeing the puzzled faces, he famously added: "...und das ist auch gut so." (c. = and that's fine that way, too). This became an instant catchphrase used to this day, and helped nicely to establish him in public consciousness. (It was allegedly a clever move to come before a newspaper leak.)

Klaus "Wowi" Wowereit, that's his name, then became Berlin's major, and proved himself to be not only popular but an expert tactician. He first got the Left Party (which is big in Berlin) to support his government from the outside, then next elections he coalitioned with them - and got them to support a not-at-all hard-leftist austerity programme. Basically: all the voter loss risk in the government was the Left Party's (even Left Party star Gregor Gysi saw it wiser to flee into federal politics). Thus, funnily, whenever the SPD was ritually tearing itself apart over the issue of relations with the Left Party, Wowereit was always the unlikely foremost advocate of stronger ties.

This cunning power pragmatist also excelled in stoking the fire of the Obama speech debate, by repeatedly declaring that he is favorable. He is in a golden position, as the location of the speech is ultimately the decision of his government.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Jul 18th, 2008 at 02:29:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It was allegedly a clever move to come before a newspaper leak.

Ack that was horrible. In proper English:

It was allegedly a clever move to pre-empt a newspaper disclosure.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Jul 18th, 2008 at 02:41:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It was allegedly a clever move to pre-empt a newspaper disclosure.

Maybe...
But was it really needed?
I don´t see that it hurt Westerwelle (leader of the liberal FDP party) and von Beust (conservative CDU mayor of Hamburg).
In my opinion it looked more like political advertising.

by Detlef (Detlef1961_at_yahoo_dot_de) on Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 at 11:12:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, but the revelations about both Westerwelle and von Beust came after Wowi's self-outing, and I do think that the presence and acceptance of the first openly gay major politician 'prepared the ground' for the public reaction on the latter two.

But, was it political advertising? Definitely. Pre-empting the disclosure while turning it into one's advantage - hence, clever. Then again, I think it wouldn't have had the effect without "Das ist auch gut so", which seemed spontaneous.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 at 04:54:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Already read you comments farther down.

So in short, as a German I was puzzled by his "Das ist auch gut so" remark.

What do I care about his private life? His sexual orientation is neither an advantage or disadvantage.
Either he is competent or not.

Trying to market his sexual orientation as a political advantage did insult me a bit. Why in the world would his being gay make him a superior mayor of Berlin?
"Das ist auch gut so"
Being a former POW doesn´t make McCain the best Presidential candidate. Likewise being gay - on its own - didn´t make Wowereit the best candidate for mayor in Berlin.

by Detlef (Detlef1961_at_yahoo_dot_de) on Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 at 04:59:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What do I care about his private life?

You don't, I don't - but conservatives do, media does, the Church does. See the Berliner Morgenpost article I linked downthread -- he was pursued by the media before, and attacked by a bishop and receiving hate mail afterwards (not to mention the East German local politician who spoke about the Nazi death camps). That you are now in the position to not care about von Beust's and Westerwelle's private life (as in: it won't influence their political fortunes) is a result of how Wowereit's coming-out was taken.

Why in the world would his being gay make him a superior mayor of Berlin?

I agree (with the minor difference that I see the marketing kicking off only after they saw the majority positive reaction).

My position may not be clear to you from my top-level comment, so a little more explicit. I would site myself on the hard-left, in German politics somewhere between the Fundi Greens and the Left Party, so "in Schröder's Third Wayist direction" is not exactly an endorsement from me. Media politics and celebrity politics is another thing shared with Schröder (who for example made use of public appearances of his fourth wife in First-Lady style). As for his real political achievements, again, a "not-at-all hard-leftist austerity programme" and making the Left Party bear all the risk for the latter aren't exactly endorsements from my quarter.

That said, I'm still conflicted. There's that I see more significance to Wowi's coming-out than you do, and I believe he has the potential for a better chancellor than Schröder, who, despite his record, might be more progressive (because of being less beholden to some old allegiances than his North/Western German counterparts).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 03:34:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
FDP and CDU isn't in the SpringerPresse crosshair.

I don't know how much BildZeitung has civilised since they got Rudi Dutschke killed, but if I had to bet money I'd say "not much."

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 at 12:03:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I checked the backstory again, and found a good long article in the Berliner Morgenpost.

The outing by the media actually preceded the self-outing, and came from an entirely different direction: it was a stupid (and later excused) indiscretion of the leader of the Berlin SPD's gay-lesbian wing towards gay-lesbian media, from which the Frankfurter Rundschau picked up the news and printed it one Saturday. However, that same article also claimed that the SPD suspected the CDU plans a negative campaign over Wowi's homosexuality.

Now the fun thing is that while the Springer media are the same jackals as in Dutschke's time (more recently, they used the beat-up in the Munich subway for some anti-Turkish-immigrants sedition), they made money out of Wowereit's coming-out by being sympathetic.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 at 01:41:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just to mention it, attacking a politician on his or her private life isn´t that common or popular in Germany.

You´ve got Brandt, Schroeder, Fischer or Wulff as examples. Trying to use the private life of a politician against him always involves the risk of a back-lash.
That´s why most media won´t use that knowledge.

What do I care about their private life?
Are they competent or not?

Also, consider the case of Ole von Beust. Conservative CDU politician. As far as I can make it out, his father outed him unintentionally in an interview. Just like Wowereit according to your search. :)
And his popularity soared after he fired Schill allegedly trying to blackmail him.

And to say the truth if I didn´t follow the news seriously I doubt that I would know that von Beust or Westerwelle are gay. It´s just not a page 1 story.
Different to Wowereit, I admit. But only because of his "Und das is gut so" comment.

by Detlef (Detlef1961_at_yahoo_dot_de) on Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 at 05:29:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, consider the case of Ole von Beust. Conservative CDU politician. As far as I can make it out, his father outed him unintentionally in an interview. Just like Wowereit according to your search. :)
And his popularity soared after he fired Schill allegedly trying to blackmail him.

I checked, the order of events was the opposite. First von Beust announced Schill's attempted blackmail, denying corruption (e.g. Schill's claim that he gave a job to his alleged partner in life just like Schill did) but not confirming or denying his relationship (which I consider an even more clever publicity move than Wowereit's); the unapproved outing by the father (in this Die Welt article) came two weeks later - and all of this was two years after Wowereit's self-outing.

Now, speaking of the CDU and gays, von Beust is one example, Anette Schavan another - there is a reason she felt the need to deny the rumours (her voters); and despite all the denials from his camp, the lesbian rumours may well have tipped the balance towards Oettinger in 2004.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 04:30:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are two different situations. One is the election level. I don't think traditional conservatives would vote for a left candidate, because the conservative candidate is gay or lesbian. Indeed I think it is an advantage for any candidate to be homosexual, except the candidate is from 'Die Linke'. It is like moving left without really moving left on any issues. Merkel had as well an advantage because she was a woman in 2005 in the general election, because feminists have voted for her without agreeing with her on issues.

The other is an inner party decision. There a heterosexual candidate has clearly an advantage in conservative circles against a homosexual one. This was the case for Schavan.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 01:03:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On the election level, not voting is a possibility (and protest vote for an also-ran party too).

Schavan's case is more complicated and mean in that she denied being homosexual, it was only rumours spread by some circles.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 02:41:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know it were just rumours. But if the rumours do damage, an outing of a candidate in the same situation would have been as well damaging.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Thu Jul 24th, 2008 at 05:15:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This whole Obama royal progress through the provinces is a bummer, as they used to say, a vanity trip, in the ancient sense, too. He has come to Europe to distance himself from it: it's ours (U.S.), and the Euorpeans should keep away from it; we'll dine together and listen to each other but when push comes to shove you know who's the boss. That may sound crazy here on ET. Maybe Obama is a latecomer to the imperial party, anyway. Even more remarkable is the role of Israeli/Jewish politics and history in the trip: Israel and two holocaust museums in a week. Has anyone ever heard of the 'Jewish vote' back where Obama comes from? What exactly was his reason for going to Israel: to visit the Palestinians? The endlessly superficial comment in the U.S. is that the trip was arranged to 'burnish his credentials'. May Obama win, I'm already tired of his non-stop smile. Weiman politicians were at home in the center of their capital. It's hardly remarkable that they appeared there. I'm disappointed that any Berliner will turn out to see him. What for?
by Quentin on Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 at 04:39:34 AM EST
Even more remarkable is the role of Israeli/Jewish politics and history in the trip: Israel and two holocaust museums in a week. Has anyone ever heard of the 'Jewish vote' back where Obama comes from?

Well on an entirely superficial level, he's going to be the man who withdraws and leaves the Ravening hordes with the playing field in Iraq. This may stress the local Neuclear armed gang, so visiting and making them see that they are not just being abandoned and that their fears are considered is probably a positive move in preventing them from Bombing the Iranians before the election. They may not have votes, but they can make the landscape of the upcoming presidency far more difficult than it needs to be.

As for the visit to Europe, his percieved weakness is in Foreign policy. Having him travel the world and seem more statesman-like than the current president is hardly a negative move on his part.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 at 05:02:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think most people around these parts have a quite clear idea about how Obama will handle the Palestinian issue: He's gonna screw them over, just like every US president since the Suez Crisis. What else is new?

I'll still prefer the guy who doesn't say he's gonna bomb Iran to the guy who says he is gonna bomb Iran.

- Jake

Chthulu for president. Why vote for the lesser evil?

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Jul 23rd, 2008 at 12:08:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]


Display:
Go to: [ European Tribune Homepage : Top of page : Top of comments ]