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European Salon de News, Discussion et Klatsch - 15 August

by Fran Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 03:06:38 PM EST

On this date in history:

1771 - Birth of Sir Walter Scott, a prolific Scottish historical novelist and poet popular throughout Europe during his time.(d. 1832)

More here and here


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by Fran on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 03:07:08 PM EST
Al Jazeera English - Europe - US and Poland 'agree shield deal'

Poland and the US have reached an agreement on a controversial US missile shield in the European nation, the Polish prime minister has said.

Donald Tusk said the US had agreed to a key Polish demand that it improve Poland's defences in exchange for placing 10 missile defence intercepters in the country.

"We have achieved ... an agreement with the Americans... The negotiators are finalising the deal now," he told Polish media on Thursday.

The agreement follows 18 months of negotiations and comes at a time of tension between the US and Russia over the conflict in Georgia.

The US says the shield is to prevent potential missile attacks by "rogue states", including, it says, Iran, and is not directed against Russia.

by Fran on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 03:08:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Poland, US Reach Missile Defense Deal | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 14.08.2008
Poland and the United States have reached agreement on stationing 10 interceptor missiles on Polish soil as part of an American missile defense system, according to Polish Prime Minister Tusk.

"We have reached a deal with the United States on the shield," after Washington agreed to meet Poland's key demand for defense aid separate from the anti-missile system, Tusk told Polish news channel TVN in a live interview.

 

"We would start with a battery under US command, but made available to the Polish army. Then there would be a second phase, involving equipping the Polish army with missiles," Tusk added, emphasizing that negotiators had reached a "preliminary deal."

 

The agreement has been reached after more than 18 months of back-and-forth, often terse, negotiations between the two countries. Its conclusion carries an especially symbolic weight in the aftermath of Russia's incursion into Georgia in recent days.

by Fran on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 03:11:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Old Europe vs. New Europe: Will Poland Split EU Over Russia Policy? - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

No European leader has been more outspoken in his criticism of Russia's actions in Georgia than Poland's Lech Kaczynski. Are his provocative words a sure way to marginalize Poland -- or a sign of a larger split in the European Union?

 Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili, right, and Polish President Lech Kaczynski at a joint news conference in Tbilisi, Georgia on Wednesday. The sight gave hope to Georgians and credibility to their embattled president, Mikhail Saakashvili. On Tuesday, five heads of state from nations once controlled by the Soviet Union -- Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Ukraine and Poland -- arrived at a rally in Tbilisi to rebuke Russia for its invasion of the Central Asian country.

For French President Nicolas Sarkozy, who was engaged in frantic shuttle diplomacy between Moscow and Tbilisi to bring an end to the conflict, Tuesday's visit was badly timed. More than anything, it highlighted deep divisions within the European Union over how to deal with Russia. Since the EU expanded into Central Europe and parts of the former Soviet Union in 2004, Poland and the Baltic states have pushed the EU to take a stronger stance against Russia -- to the dismay of many diplomats in what some call "Old Europe."

Speaking to a crowd of Saakashvili's supporters in the Georgian capital, Polish President Lech Kaczynski, who organized the trip, was typically outspoken in his criticism of Poland's neighbor and one-time occupier. "You could say that the nation of Russia yet again showed its true face here today," Kaczynski said. "The aggression here is nothing new when it comes to history."

by Fran on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 03:13:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"The sight gave hope to Georgians and credibility to their embattled president, Mikhail Saakashvili."

The sight of Lech Kaczynski did that? Someone has made one too many trips to the Georgian wine cabinet...

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde

by NordicStorm (m<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 03:17:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Der Spiegel trying to subtly outflank Murdoch.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 03:28:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you can understand ex-soviet satellites wanting to stick it to their old oppressor. But politics isn't about playground vendettas, it's about securing the best future for your country. Energy wise, that means sucking up to russia, just as america sucks up to the saudis, any other policy is stupid.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 03:17:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Helen:
But politics isn't about playground vendettas

Yes it is.

it's about securing the best future for your country.

Sadly, not.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 06:01:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Germany Wants Balanced EU Approach to Russia, Georgia | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 14.08.2008
Germany's foreign minister Thursday urged the EU to take a balanced approach to the Caucasus conflict. The EU has to keep channels of communication open with Russia if it hopes to help stabilize the region, he said.

German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier said on Thursday, Aug. 14, the European Union should maintain an even-handed approach to the conflict between Russia and Georgia if it wanted to play a constructive role in forging long-lasting peace in the Caucasus.

 

"It remains the case that a level-headed policy is the one that most helps people in the region," Steinmeier told reporters after a meeting of the German parliament's foreign affairs committee.

 

"We must criticize what needs to be criticized and we have done this in the past, including with clear words when necessary towards Russia ... with regard to Russian bombing of Georgia and the presence of Russian troops in Georgia-proper," Steinmeier said.

by Fran on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 03:09:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The EU has to keep channels of communication open with Russia

Alternatively, we could hugely reduce our consumption of oil and gas.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 04:02:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why is it either/or?  They both seem like good ideas to me.

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 04:17:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What is behind my snark is that I'm tired of European "leaders" airing supposed options re sanctions (like cutting off diplomatic ties and communications) Russia should (or in this case should not) undergo, when in fact that can't happen because we need Russian energy supplies. I just meant to point out that talk of sanctions is hot air (perhaps we could use that for energy, hmm).
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 04:52:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but I get the feeling that was acutally a lecture to the ex-soviet satellites to stop trying to get back at russia for past transgresssions when their own future, as well as ours, relies on being nicey-nice with them.

But the point about reducing consumption is well made, but politicians don't think negawatts are sexy.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 03:20:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I touched on that in my explanation: Russia should (or in this case should not) undergo. I wasn't getting at Steinmeier in particular, just the blah about "sanctions", when we're in no position to impose any.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 03:59:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You know one of the reasons that gas consumption is up in  the EU is because (with the exception of France) many of the new electric plants are gas fired, replacing older coal or oil fired plants.  

Depending on the fraction of electric output that comes from gas, one plausible option might be total replacement by renewables like wind and solar.  And creating grid connections to link up Norwegian hydro to the the UK and Eastern Europe. And as solar becomes more feasible to North Africa.

In the long term, replacing gas heating with electric forced air would allow the EU to eliminate the need for Russian natural gas imports.  And Russian threats on oil would have no weight, because there's not the same infrastructure bottlenecks that limit suppliers with natural gas.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 04:00:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed. Trouble is we're not going down that road decisively enough. (Not, I hasten to add, that we should want to cut off relations with Russia).
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 04:13:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What gets me is that for all the people screaming about the threat of Russia cutting of the gas, you don't hear pundits suggesting that a program of energy self-sufficiency would alleviate the political tensions created by the economics of gas supply.

Rather, the argument is that there must be free access to Russian gas at prices that are the preference of other European states.

The aversion to autarky as a means to piece comes not in the least from the ideological trauma that comes from admitting that free trade may create conflict as much as alleviate it.

One of the real ironies of the "protectionist" school and the works of Friederich List, is that because he was a German, there's this assumption that protectionism must be militaristic.

But if you read the National system of political economy, List makes clear that the greatest way of encouraging peace between states is through systems of national political economy that allow political interactions of states not to be tainted by differences in the economic power of states.  Peace comes when trade is not an instrument of foreign policy that allows dominant states to dominate, and lesser states to be forced to accept the will of larger states.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 06:18:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
work both ways: existing pipelines mean that Russia can only send its gas to where the pipelines go, ie to Europe (or nowhere at all).

The gas relationship is a co-dependency, and the "energy weapon" goes both ways, as the Poles and Ukrainians have amply demonstrated by holding the transit gas hostage.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 06:26:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I know that Union Fenosa is down in Egypt trying set up LNG export facilities.

I have to wonder what the long term impact of LNG is.

Conceivably, with enough loading and unloading infrastructure, I suppose that you could eliminate a lot of these bottlenecks.  Creating a more fungible market like with petroleum today.

Of course it seems like this would involved building a lot of infrastructure at high cost.

It seems like it would be far more prudent for EU governments to subsidize domestic alternatives, so that the EU isn't as dependent on Russian gas.  

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 06:35:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
just won't die.

LNG is just as capital intensive as pipelines, and creates supply chaines that are as rigid, for the same reasons - all the investment is upfront and can only be repaid onver long periods, thus requiring very long, very constraining contracts.

A LNG production facility needs a dedicated LNG regaz facility on the other side, and dedicated LNG tankers (committed to the route between the two) for 20-25 years, and the contracts that formalize that.

It is true that you can reroute a LNG tanker to another destination if you make a profit doing so (shared usually between the seller and the committed buyer), but that's not quite enough to create a liquid market: first of all, the trade unit size is a cargo, ie 100-200 million cubic meters (at current prices: $50-60 million), and the players can only be parties to existing contracts, and holders of capacity in existing terminals.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 07:12:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course it seems like this would involved building a lot of infrastructure at high cost.

It seems like it would be far more prudent for EU governments to subsidize domestic alternatives, so that the EU isn't as dependent on Russian gas.

and who wants to build that infrastructure?

when they know in 20-30 years it'll be obsolete and redundant?

this is the cognitive dissonance that the general public hasn't clued in on yet.

but they will...by process of elimination.

the choices reduce and highlight better the contrast. so damn stark when you stare into it:

left....energy independence, a serious, sustainable infrastructure planned and built to last much longer than a couple of decades, or right, the delirium of berlusconi's 1000 new nuke plants, endless subservience to autocratic fossil fuel distribution bottlenecks, (with ever higher body counts), cops on every corner.

you'd have to be a fully corrupted, paid-off masochist, or an imbecile to think we should take the latter.

yet that's what it's coming down to. and the media will be the last to know, because they're so well paid not to... meanwhile our leaders take us out further on the rotting limb...

how long can they blithely continue to call up down?

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 09:06:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
EU wants peacekeepers 'on the ground' in Georgia - EUobserver

EUOBSERVER / BRUSSELS - EU foreign ministers on Wednesday (13 August) agreed to send peacekeepers to help supervise the fragile Russia-Georgia ceasefire, putting off discussions on potential diplomatic sanctions against Russia until next month.

"The European Union must be prepared to commit itself, including on the ground," the EU joint statement said, asking EU top diplomat Javier Solana to draft more detailed proposals for the ministers' next meeting on 5 September.

EU police in Bosnia - it is unclear what the EU peacekeeping mission in Georgia would consist of

"Many countries have said that they are ready to join in," French foreign minister, Bernard Kouchner, said, adding that any EU move would require a UN mandate. "We are encouraged by what we saw this morning, but we have to go through the United Nations."

Ministers did not specify if the EU mission will compose EU-badge wearing soldiers, policemen or civilian monitors. It also remains unclear if it would be part of a wider force involving the UN and the OSCE, or when deployment might start.

by Fran on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 03:12:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nooooo !!! We are not perceived as neutral in this. I agree there peacekeepers would be a good idea now there's a ceasfire, but not european ones.

And give them the right to shoot looters and militia.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 03:23:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Serbian Minister Takes Kosovo Argument to UN | World News | Deutsche Welle | 14.08.2008
Serbian Foreign Minister Vuk Jeremic was heading to New York to seek UN support for his country's plan to challenge Kosovo's independence at the International Court of Justice.

A foreign ministry statement on Thursday, Aug. 14, said Jeremic will submit a resolution to the UN General Assembly seeking an opinion from the Netherlands-based court about the legality of Kosovo's secession from Serbia.

 

Jeremic, who was set to travel to New York on Thursday will "submit Serbia's official draft of the resolution for a procedure before the UN general assembly," the foreign ministry statement said. "A draft calls for the UN General Assembly to seek ICJ advisory opinion on a legality of the unilaterally proclaimed independence of Kosovo."

by Fran on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 03:14:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sweet !! Now the kosovo precedenct has blown up in the West's faces, Serbia are gonna rub their noses in it.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 03:24:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, I doubt there's any connection. I posted a link to this a while back. It seems to be proceeding at its own pace, independent of other events.

It remains to  see whether the U.N. will support the Serbian case to take it to the court. I gather the West is against, while Russia is in favour, making Russia just as inconsistent as the West.

by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Sun Aug 17th, 2008 at 08:49:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Russia rebuffs U.S. and vows to defend Georgian enclaves - International Herald Tribune

MOSCOW: President Dmitri Medvedev said Thursday that Russia would guarantee the security of the two pro-Russian enclaves at the center of the crisis with Georgia, and Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said that Georgia could "forget about" territorial integrity because of the war.

The comments did not stake out a new position, but they offered a sharp retort to President George W. Bush's insistence a day earlier that "the sovereign and territorial integrity of Georgia be respected." The Russian rebuke came as Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice headed to Georgia to work for a settlement and to show support for President Mikheil Saakashvili.

Speaking in France after meeting with President Nicolas Sarkozy, she urged Russia to honor the truce and withdraw all of its troops. (Page 3)

Defense Secretary Robert Gates, speaking in Washington, said that "the entire premise" of relations between Washington and Moscow had been called into question by Russia's conduct in Georgia, and that the relationship could be affected "for years to come" if it did not quickly withdraw its forces.

by Fran on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 03:16:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Russia Backs Georgia Rebel Regions Amid Peace Efforts | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 14.08.2008
Russian President Medvedev met leaders of Georgia's separatist South Ossetia and Abkhazia regions and vowed Moscow would back them in talks on their future status as diplomatic efforts continue.

Eduard Kokoity and Sergei Bagapsh, self-styled presidents of South Ossetia and Abhkazia, held talks with Russian President Dimitry Medvedev at the Kremlin on Thursday, Aug. 14, amid a diplomatic drive to forge peace between Georgia and Russia.

Speaking after the two leaders signed a six-point peace plan brokered this week by France to end fierce fighting between Georgia and Russia, Medvedev said Moscow fully supported their position.

by Fran on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 03:18:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Minor nitpick here, but they're not actually enclaves, are they?

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (m<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 04:29:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Vatican distances itself from Catholic magazine's warning of fascist revival - Times Online

The Vatican today distanced itself from a series of blistering attacks on the centre-right government of Silvio Berlusconi by the mass-circulation Roman Catholic magazine Famiglia Cristiana, which in its latest issue gives warning that Italy is in danger of returning to Fascism.

The magazine, owned by the Paulist Fathers, has repeatedly attacked the Berlusconi Government since it came to power in May on a law-and-order platform, arguing that the Right's targeting of immigrants and Gypsies as part of a crackdown on crime is racist and xenophobic. In June it compared the Government's "security decree" to the racial laws imposed by Benito Mussolini, Italy's Fascist dictator, in the 1930s.

In its latest editorial it says: "We hope that the suspicion that Fascism is being reborn in a different form proves to be untrue." Drawing on an analysis in the French Catholic publication Esprit, it compared the fingerprinting of Roma children in Italian Gypsy camps to the persecution of the Jews by the Nazis before and during the Second World War.

Government ministers rounded in fury on Famiglia Cristiana, with one saying that the magazine was itself displaying a Fascist mentality by making intemperate attacks on a democratically elected government.

[Murdoch Alert]
by Fran on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 03:17:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hitler was democratically elected. I'm not sure the italian government has a point in its favour.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 03:28:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
NATO bars Russia over Georgia | The Australian

NATO has barred a Russian ship from joining its multinational anti-terrorism patrol in the Mediterranean in apparent retaliation for Moscow's military action against Georgia, a NATO diplomat said.

The Black Sea patrol ship Ladny had been due to take part in NATO's Operation Active Endeavour in August and September involving anti-terrorism exercises and practising search and rescue operations at sea, Russia's navy command said last month.

It had already arrived off the coast of Turkey to take part in the operation.

But the diplomat said that following the fighting in the breakaway Georgian region of South Ossetia, Washington had withheld its agreement for the Russian ship to join the mission, launched after the September 11, 2001 attacks on the United States.

NATO diplomats said the US administration had also blocked so far a Russian request for an emergency meeting of the NATO-Russia Council to discuss the crisis in the Caucasus.

[Murdoch Alert]
by Fran on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 03:23:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Russia and France Will Hold Their Own Naval Exercises without the U.S. - Kommersant Moscow
France will not refuse to hold the FRUKUS 2008 international naval exercises, in which Russia will take part, representatives of the Russian Pacific Fleet information service told Interfax on Thursday. At the request of the French Navy, they added, a ship from the Pacific Fleet and the French frigate Vendemiaire will hold separate exercises in the Sea of Japan.


The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)
by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 03:47:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Rejuvenated Georgian president cites U.S. ties as 'turning point' - International Herald Tribune

TBILISI, Georgia: On Monday, President Mikheil Saakashvili, his army in retreat and his Western allies still surprised by the intensity of the Russian attack, was the very picture of vulnerability, dodging Russian military jets.

By Wednesday he seemed an almost preternaturally reinvigorated man, once again raising the temperature in Georgia's bitter disagreements with Russia, and invoking special ties with American democracy and freedom.

Moments after President George W. Bush appeared at the Rose Garden to say that the Pentagon would begin a humanitarian aid mission to support Georgia, Saakashvili was on the phone with a Western reporter, talking fast. "This is a turning point," he said. Soon he appeared on national television, his tousled hair combed back flat and wearing a freshly pressed suit, assuring his country that the worst had passed.

No matter that Russian troops were 30 miles away, milling on the road outside the capital, meeting no resistance. Saakashvili was in cocky form in an interview later in the evening with reporters, expounding on Nazi propaganda, Orwell and the film "Dr. Strangelove."

by Fran on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 03:30:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
FT.com / World - Row as German SPD joins Left in pact
A new row broke out in Germany's Social Democratic party on Thursday after its officials in the state of Hesse agreed to work with the radical Left party in order to form a government in the state parliament.

Meeting in Wiesbaden on Tuesday night, SPD officials in Hesse approved the formation of a minority government by its regional leader Andrea Ypsilanti with the backing of the Left.

Although Left ministers would not be offered jobs in the cabinet, a deal would mark the first time SPD and Left party worked together in a large western state.



"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 07:52:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
FT.com / Companies / Financial services - Merill set to avoid UK tax after $29bn loss

Merrill Lynch is unlikely to pay corporation tax in the UK for several decades after $29bn (£16bn) of losses suffered by the US investment bank were charged to its London-based subsidiary.

The figures, published in Merrill's regulatory filings, emphasise how the meltdown in the US subprime mortgage market is undermining tax receipts for governments far beyond America's borders. They also offer a rare glimpse into the tax management policies of a global financial institution.



"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 07:54:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And Darling lets them get away with it. Why do we bother having a tax authority if we refuse to tax the only people with any money.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 03:30:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL

And the accounting and financial games continue, attempting to make a silk purse out of a pile of worthless paper.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 10:46:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
   

Published in Estonia's largest paper today.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Sat Aug 16th, 2008 at 02:56:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
WORLD
by Fran on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 03:07:33 PM EST
McCain's Top Foreign Policy Advisor Got Money From Georgia

WASHINGTON -- John McCain's chief foreign policy adviser and his business partner lobbied the senator or his staff on 49 occasions in a 3 1/2-year span while being paid hundreds of thousands of dollars by the government of the former Soviet republic of Georgia.

The payments raise ethical questions about the intersection of Randy Scheunemann's personal financial interests and his advice to the Republican presidential candidate who is seizing on Russian aggression in Georgia as a campaign issue.

McCain warned Russian leaders Tuesday that their assault in Georgia risks "the benefits they enjoy from being part of the civilized world."

by Fran on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 03:09:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
American whites 'will be minority by 2042' - Americas, World - The Independent

White people will no longer make up a majority of Americans by 2042, according to new US government projections. That's eight years sooner than previous estimates, made in 2004.

The United States has been growing more diverse for decades, but the process has sped up through immigration and higher birth rates among minority residents, especially Hispanics.

It is also growing older.

"The white population is older and very much centered around the aging baby boomers who are well past their high fertility years," said William Frey, a demographer at the Brookings Institution, a Washington think tank.

"The future of America is epitomised by the young people today. They are basically the melting pot we are going to see in the future."

by Fran on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 03:14:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Could somebody explain what they mean by "white people"? As far as I know, many Latin-Americans are whites, as well as Arabs. What is the definition of "white people"? What are the criteria?

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 04:12:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They're probably referring to "non-Hispanic whites".

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (m<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 04:23:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If so, they should say non-Hispanic, non-Arab, non-... white people.

I was not asking what they are referring to, but questioning the use of highly questionable categories.  

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 04:42:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
For most people white equals everyone minus the darkies.

If you have to ask who the darkies are, you're probably one of them.

</snark>

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 08:09:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If they are going by the census, people themselves choose what category they fall into.  No one decides you are "white" for you.  You have to pick.  That said, rather than be annoyed by the language, I find it annoying anyone cares who is white and who is colored.  They're made up categories few people completely fall into anyway.  Weird racial "science" nonsense.  I get the need for demographics, but the whole system of "I'm going to invent something called race, based on heritage (skin color), and now you have to choose when one best described your heritage (skin color), and then we'll see who has the most in their race.  Sound like fun?" is a product of white European hegemony.  

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 04:57:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I find it annoying anyone cares who is white and who is colored. They're made up categories few people completely fall into anyway. Weird racial "science" nonsense.

That was exactly my point.

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 05:04:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Census didn't make it up, society did. To a certain extent census categories solidify those definitions, on the other hand they exist and matter, so if we want to understand our society, we need to have data about them.
by MarekNYC on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 07:05:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Only when I came here in Australia I found out that not even all "white" people are REALLY white. There are different "complexions".
I suppose just Anglo-Saxons are really white, the rest of us whites are "olive"...what a mess. And there are totally new "colors" made lately especially in a melting pot like USA...
So when they say white I suppose they are thinking about Aryans...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 08:31:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Has anyone told Mark steyn ?

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 03:31:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just think, in another life Mark Steyn could have been Blot Tarnish.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 03:33:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Greenspan sees house price bottom in 2009: report - Boston.com

NEW YORK/BANGALORE (Reuters) - Former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan predicts U.S. house prices will begin to stabilize in the first half of next year, even as he faulted the government's rescue of mortgage market giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the Wall Street Journal reported on Thursday.

"They should have wiped out the shareholders, nationalized the institutions with legislation that they are to be reconstituted... as five or 10 individual privately held units," which the government would eventually auction off to private investors, Greenspan said in an interview with the Journal.

In a high-profile rescue orchestrated in mid-July, the federal government offered to buttress Freddie and Fannie, the two largest providers of U.S. home mortgage funding, with billions of dollars of capital if the companies were on the verge of collapse.

Greenspan acknowledged that a government backstop for the shareholder-owned government-sponsored enterprises, or GSEs, was unavoidable, the paper said.

by Fran on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 03:19:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
FT.com / World / US & Canada - Concern as US inflation jumps
Thursday's news of a 0.8 per cent jump in the US consumer price index in July, coupled with a 0.3 per cent increase in the same measure excluding food and energy, could damage - or at least delay - the emerging optimism on inflation.

The recent drop in the price of oil had stoked hopes that inflationary forces could abate more rapidly than previously expected.

This would potentially remove one of the two main threats to economic stability that the Federal Reserve has been trying to balance, along with growth risks, and reduce the pressure from more hawkish members within the US central bank to begin raising interest rates from their current level of 2 per cent.

However, the July data on US consumer prices - which were worse than expected on both the headline and the core measures - suggest inflation will remain a significant source of concern for the foreseeable future.



"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 07:56:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Paul Krugman - Op-Ed Columnist - New York Times Blog

Basically, what we're seeing is pure commodity price inflation, with not a hint of a wage-price spiral.



"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 07:55:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
RGE - The Decline of the American Empire
Recent economic, financial and geopolitical events suggest that the decline of the American Empire has started. After the collapse of the Soviet Union there was a brief period where the world switched from a bipolar balance of two superpowers to a unipolar world with one economic, financial, geostrategic superpower, or better, hyperpower, i.e the United States. But by now three factors suggest that the US has squandered its unipolar moment and that the decline of the American Empire - as the US was in effect a global empire - has started.

Let us explain how and why...First, the US squandered its power by relying excessively on its hard military power in the wars of Iraq and Afghanistan and in its unilateralist foreign policy - including economic issues such as global warming - rather than relying more on its soft power of diplomacy and multilateralist approaches to global policy issues.

Second, regardless of mistaken US policies the rise of other economic and financial powers - the rise of China, the recent resurgence of Russia, the process of economic and political integration in the European Union, the emergence of India, and the rise of other regional powers such as Brazil, South Africa and Iran - implies that the relative economic, financial and geopolitical power of the US will be reduced over time. We are indeed slowly moving towards a multipolar world where there will be a balance of Great Powers rather than the hegemony of a single hyperpower.

(snip)

Third, and more important, the US squandered its economic and financial power by running reckless economic policies, especially its twin fiscal and current account deficits.

(snip)

And while the weak dollar is now inducing a modest improvement of the external deficit the looming sharp increase in fiscal deficits - that the current recession and financial crisis is inducing - will cause a return of twin deficits in the coming years. By now the US is the biggest net borrower in the world - running current account deficits still in the 700 billion dollars range - and the biggest net debtor in the world with its foreign liabilities now over 2.5 trillion dollars.

The trouble with these twin deficits is multi-fold. First, superpowers and empires - like the British Empire at its peak - tend to be net lenders - i.e run current account surpluses - and be net creditors, not net debtors; The decline of the British Empire started in World War II when the British fiscal deficits in the war and the current account deficits turned that empire into a net borrower and a net debtor both in its public debt and external debt. That financial switch into an external debtor and borrower position was also the reason for the decline of the British pound as the leading reserve currency.

(snip)

Second... the economic powers financing the US twin deficits are the strategic rivals of the US - China and Russia - and unstable petro-states

(snip)

Third,... the foreign financing of the US current account deficits has also become more risky: less FDI and equity, more debt, more short term debt, more debt held by official political actors - central banks and sovereign wealth funds - , less debt held by foreign private investors, and more debt held by politicals rivals rather than allies of the US.

(snip)

Fourth, the foreign creditors of the US are getting tired of financing the US in the form of low-yielding US Treasuries. Thus the switch of such reserve holdings to SWFs that are planning to make large equity investments possibly with actual control of corporate firms and financial institutions that are desperate for capital to recapitalize themselves.

(snip)

The ensuing decline of the US dollar as the main reserve currency will take time and will not occur overnight; but it is inexorable given the relative fall in US economic, financial and geopolitical power.

(snip)

But the trend is clear: the brief period of unipolar power of the American hyperpower is now over and a new age of balance of great powers is starting in the world. Also, the rise of non governmental actors - multinational corporations, NGOs, terrorist groups, non-nation state powers, failed and unstable states, non-traditional global players - will radically change the traditional balance of power as the power of nation states will shrink relative to that of other global players.

(snip)

But it is certain that the decline of the American Empire has started.

And because NATO has mainly become a tool for maintaining Europe under US control, I think the decline of NATO has started, too...

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 10:27:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
THIS, THAT, AND THE OTHER
by Fran on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 03:07:58 PM EST
Caspian Oil Access Curtailed: Georgia -- A Blow to US Energy - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

The plans of the US and Western oil companies for expanded pipelines in the Caspian region may well be a casualty of Russia's attack.

 If Russia clamps down on pipelines, oil from these platforms in Azerbaijan may not make it to the West. Long-term U.S. efforts to access Caspian oil free of Russian influence may come to naught. The sudden war in the Caucasus brought Georgia to heel, reasserted Russia's claim as the dominant force in the region, and dealt a blow to U.S. prestige. But in this part of the world, diplomacy and war are about oil and gas as much as they are about hegemony and the tragic loss of human life. Victory in Georgia now gives Russia the edge in the struggle over access to the Caspian's 35 billion barrels of oil and trillions of cubic feet of gas. The probable losers: the U.S. and those Western oil companies that have bet heavily on the Caspian as one of the few regions where they could still operate with relative freedom.

At the core of the struggle is a vast network of actual and planned pipelines for shipping Caspian Sea oil to the world market from countries that were once part of the Soviet empire. American policymakers working with a BP-led consortium had already helped build oil and natural gas pipelines across Georgia to the Turkish coast. Next on the drawing board: another pipeline through Georgia to carry natural gas from the eastern shore of the Caspian Sea to Austria -- offering an alternate supply to Western Europe, which now depends on Russia for a third of its energy.

But after the mauling Georgia got, "any chance of a new non-Russian pipeline out of Central Asia and into Europe is pretty much dead," says Chris Ruppel, an energy analyst at Execution, a brokerage in Greenwich, Conn. The risk of building a pipeline through countries vulnerable to the wrath of Russia is just too high.

by Fran on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 03:11:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
All the pipelines we'll ever need from the Caspian are already in place. The BTC (oil) is large enough to take all the oil that will ever be produced in the Azeri side of the Caspian, and, later, the oil from Kashagan on the Kazakh side, once a way is found (i) to produce it and (ii) to bring it across the Caspian Sea. The South Caucasus Gas Pipeline already exists (it shares the route of the BTC) and brings azeri gas to Turkey. Nabucco is about bring gas from Turkey to Austria; the question of what gas is used to fill it in Turkey is the big one: azeri gas is not enough, Turkmen gas is highly unlikely, Iranian gas is (so far) unreliable, and is presumably not what the Americans want, so all you have left to fill it (ie to finance it and justify its construction) is Russian gas.

The ignorance in these articles about Caspian oil is stunning, as usual.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 06:30:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Genetic modification gets royal warning - International Herald Tribune

LONDON: Prince Charles of Britain said Wednesday that the widespread use of genetically modified crops would be the biggest environmental disaster of all time.

The 59-year-old heir to the British throne is well known for supporting organic farming, but his comments published in an interview with The Daily Telegraph were his most outspoken yet on GMO foods.

His views will strike a chord in Britain where biotech crops - widely grown in North and South America - have faced significant opposition with concerns centered on food safety and possible environmental impacts.

Charles said multinational food companies were conducting a "gigantic experiment with nature and the whole of humanity which has gone seriously wrong."

If large companies took over the mass production of food, it would hurt small farmers and the environment, while "excessive approaches to modern forms of agriculture" had damaged water supplies in India's Punjab and in Western Australia, he said.

by Fran on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 03:13:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm sorry, but just as a stopped clock is right twice a day, just cos a dopey genetically-inbred twerp like Prince charles is against genetic modification (I wonder why) doesn't mean he's a useful ally. After all he conflated it with global warming, a connection lost on me.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 03:38:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
London's Electric Avenues: New Playground for Alternative Cars - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

Since the introduction of stringent congestion fees, London traffic has loosened up and cleaned up. Britons are now increasingly cruising their capital in cars running on alternative energy to avoid the charge.

Formerly a traffic nightmare, London city center has become a playground for drivers of alternative energy cars. Since the British capital introduced a congestion charge of 8 pounds sterling for each conventional car between 7 a.m. and 6 p.m., Londoners have begun trying out new models that discharge less CO2, freeing drivers from the fee.

"The congestion charge is a great success," says John Mason, head of enforcement at Transport for London's Congestion Charge. "Every day there are 100,000 fewer cars in the city than before the introduction of the fee." That's a 25-percent reduction, and the vehicles that do venture into the city center have become cleaner. "In February 2003 there were only 90 electric cars in London, in June 2008 it was more than 1600," says Mason. Tallies of other eco-friendly cars, including gas and hybrid models, also rose sharply, from 1,000 vehicles in 2003 to more than 20,000 by the last count. "The British buy about twice as many hybrid cars as Germans, and most of those who do drive in London," explains Debbie Fox of market monitor Jato Dynamics.

by Fran on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 03:15:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
hmm, i read that if one buys a hybrid here in italy, there's a gov rebate of €2000, (taking the price of a honda hybrid from €22000 down to €20000, and best of all, you can go into any city here and not pay parking rates, or have to obey the 'alternate numberplate' rules, by which i mean those schemes to lower city traffic by allowing odd numbers in one day, even the next.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 03:23:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC NEWS | Technology | Legal milestone for open source
Advocates of open source software have hailed a court ruling protecting its use even though it is given away free.

"Copyright holders who engage in open source licensing have the right to control the modification and distribution of copyrighted materials," Judge Jeffrey White wrote in his 15-page decision.

"Open source licensing has become a widely used method of creative collaboration that serves to advance the arts and sciences in a manner and at a pace few could have imagined just a few decades ago," Judge White said.

The ruling has implications for the Creative Commons licence which offers ways for work to go into the public domain and still be protected. These licenses are widely used by academic organisations like MIT for distributing coursework, scientific groups, artists, movie makers and Wikipedia among others.

"This opinion demonstrates a strong understanding of a basic economic principle of the internet; that even though money doesn't change hands, attribution is a valuable economic right in the information economy."


We all bleed the same color.
by budr on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 06:50:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It should be seen as this: "...attribution is a valuable common economic right. It is a right that belongs to society.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 07:46:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree.  Still, it is a legal milestone to recognize that not everything of value can be measured in dollars or pounds or euros.

We all bleed the same color.
by budr on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 08:56:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's either unworkable or irrelevant. You can't make something 'open' and then demand attribution credits for every component.

This will more or less work when you're dealing with a small project with fixed boundaries. But if I put together a giant mash-up of all kinds of everything - let's say I put together a three minute mix of hundreds of loops supplied under a Creative Commons licence from different sources - the attributions on their own will take a week or two to sort out.

This is not quite the incentive to collaboration that it's perhaps supposed to be. Especially if those attributions are supposed to be propagated indefinitely for every subsequent derivative work.

GPL has already been described as a legal virus attached to every piece of software it touches, and this isn't helping any.

I think if the Open Source community wants to define the legal status of derivative work it should decide whether work is pro bono and public domain, for profit, or make it explicit that the commodity being traded is the reputation of the creator, and not the functionality of the software.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 09:18:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, much better to keep it closed and not let anyone use it.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 09:26:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The principle is that that which has been generated for non-commercial sharing, shall not be appropriated by others for commercial use. You are free to do your mash-up imo, as long as YOU share what what you have created under the same terms as its components were created.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 10:33:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The difference between this and conventional copyright is close to being medieval sophistry. In theory I suppose it's meant to encourage collaborative work, but in practice it's encouraging collaborative work which no one can profit from.

The problem remains - if I create a mash-up and want to sell it legally, I have to contact every originator and get clearance.

In practice, this isn't any different to conventional commercial copyright clearance. It's nice that people can dilettante around with other people's contributions legally without worrying about the copyright cops. But - with the inevitable list of Slashdotted poster-geek exceptions - that's not going to interest most professional artists either way.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 10:56:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you don't want to share, then you are protected by copyright if you mark the work so.

Non-profit collaboration is not always about the works themselves. It can be seen as educative, connecting, liberating, inspiring etc: i.e. values other than financial.

Like ET, the aim is not profitability but enablement.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 03:19:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
KLATSCH
by Fran on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 03:08:17 PM EST
   

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 03:24:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is a well-known fact that Russia have long sought to become a major player in the peach growing industry, so this is hardly surprising. Unfortunately this also means Obama will have to rethink his campaign strategy, as this virtually guarantees Georgia's 15 electoral votes will got Vladimir Putin.

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (m<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 03:39:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you suggesting Putin could be the Nader of 2008?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 06:43:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Bush is already the Nadir of 2008. So this is just fair and balanced.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 09:18:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The most revealing thing about this hilarious item is that the poster sought out Yahoo Answers rather than, say, cnn.com
by paving on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 05:23:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
(I think it is fake.)

"Pretending that you already know the answer when you don't is not actually very helpful." ~Migeru.
by poemless on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 05:36:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It was up on Slashdot a few days ago.  Apparently completely real, or at least it was understood to be real when I read up on it.

And it is Georgia, after all.  Knowing Georgia, half the population probably thought it was the last war and were wondering when Jesus was going to show up.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 06:45:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Arrggghhh! the news is still dominated by the caucasus crisis.

This is my last Salon until September 1st. Tomorrow night after my yoga class I am taking the night train to Prague and the meetup.

Hope you have lots of fun while I am gone. !

by Fran on Thu Aug 14th, 2008 at 03:27:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
have fun in prague, fran!

your salons have been getting better and better, btw.

we'll miss you

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 03:27:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
some of us are already here. It was hot yesterday, InWales and I were out till late seeing the sights (through a beer glass) and it was still plenty warm enough for a light T shirt.

Today we've had rain with forecast of more to come (which is why I'm not out yet)

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 03:42:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
for another year on the deck. I don't know what European Tribune would be without you. Enjoy your holidays.

I'm also on holiday over the next 2 weeks, likely on a lighter posting schedule... but unlikely to be completely away!

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 06:32:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks Jérôme!

I just realised that would be 3 years, since I started doing the Breakfast and later the Salon - amazing how fast time passes and how much happend during that time here on ET.

I also would like to use this place to say thank you, to all of you, who aid to make ET, ET!!! I learn so much from you all and even if at times I feel some of the stuff is a little beyond me, I enjoy reading what you people write. :-D

by Fran on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 08:15:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Second Jerome's comments, Fran.  You have done as much as anyone to make ET a successful, vibrant, living community. Thank you!

We all bleed the same color.
by budr on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 09:01:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
really fran, you are a rock here at ET, upon which so much is built daily.

i can't thank you enough!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 09:11:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Fran - you totally rock. (Or whatever the EU equivalent of that would be. :) )
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 09:20:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you, Fran, as everyday.  Have a great change of pace and keep an eye on those ´insurgent´ ETeers in Prague.  (;

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 09:04:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
if you can, tune into China vs. USA women's volleyball.

U.S. down 1 to 2 in games, winning 4th game 20-18.

looks like it wil be an incredible showdown in the 5th if the USA can take the 4th.

Cynicism is intellectual treason.

by marco on Fri Aug 15th, 2008 at 09:52:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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