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Soros on politics

by Carrie Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 02:33:53 AM EST

I just read George Soros' latest book, The New Paradigm for Financial Markets: The Credit Crisis of 2008 and What it Means. My original interest was in reading about his theory of Reflexivity and his associated model for financial bubbles. Then I thought I would quote what he has to say about Market Fundamentalism and how the current Crisis might spell the end of it. But I think today I'll just quote him on what he calls "the Postmodern Idiom" and how it makes Popper's "Open Society" vulnerable.

Yet, in spite of my preoccupation with the concept of reflexivity, I failed to recognize a flaw in Popper's concept of open society: that political discourse is not necessarily directed at the pursuit of truth. I believe Popper and I made these mistakes because of our preoccupation with the pursuit of truth. Fortunately, these errors are not fatal because the case for critical thinking remains unimpaired and the mistakes can be corrected: we can recognize a difference between the natural and social sciences, and we can introduce the pursuit of truth as a requirement for an open society.


In the last sentence he's referring to Karl Popper's Unity of Method. Popper emphasised the concept of Falsifiability as the requirement for a theory to be scientific, and furthermore required that the same scientific method be applied both to natural and social science. Soros argues that social sciences, including economics, should be considered historical and so that the scientific method doesn't apply in the same way.

Reflexivity refers to the way that not only people react to their perceptions of the outside world, but also how their actions influence the very world they're responding to, introducing a feedback loop into social phenomena with unavoidable elements of error and uncertainty (since perceptions are necessarily imperfect) that sets them apart from natural phenomena. Soros argues that economics, in particular financial economics, fails to take this into account. I would say that social phenomena share with ecology an evolutionary character, but the reflexivity Soros talks about is present only in social events and so while ecology might be subject to the standard scientific method, sociology is not (and neither is economics). Soros claims that Sociology and Anthropology don't even try (and that is a good thing!) to be "scientific".

The postmodern attitude towards reality is much more dangerous. While it has stolen a march on the Enlightenment by discovering that reality can be manipulated, it does not recognize the pursuit of truth as a requirement. Consequently, it allows the manipulation of reality to go unhindered. Why is that so dangerous? Because in the absence of proper understanding the results of the manipulation are liable to be radically different from the expectations of the manipulators. One of the most successful instances of manipulation was when President George W Bush declared a War on Terror and used it to invade Iraq on false pretenses. The outcome was the exact opposite of what he intended: He wanted to demonstrate American supremacy and garner political support in the process, but he caused a precipitous decline in American power and influence and lost political support in the process.
The extent of the vulnerability of an "open society" to manipulation and propaganda seems to have been realised by Soros only very recently. In the book he says he came to wonder how it was possible for Orwellian propaganda techniques to be successful in a relatively open society without the need for the totalitarian repressive apparatus that Orwell imagined in 1984. The reality-based community episode is quoted in full to illustrate the nature of the problem:
In the summer of 2002, after I had written an article in Esquire that the White House didn't like about Bush's former communications director, Karen Hughes, I had a meeting with a senior adviser to Bush. He expressed the White House's displeasure, and then he told me something that at the time I didn't fully comprehend -- but which I now believe gets to the very heart of the Bush presidency.

The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

Soros has no qualms about identifying this "aide" as "presumably Karl Rove" and referring to Rove in the sequel every time he needs to personify a "postmodern" manipulation of reality with disregard for the "truth". This is the "Postmodern Idiom" that Soros says has supplanted the "Enlightenment Fallacy".
To guard against the dangers of manipulation, the concept of open society originally formulated by Karl Popper needs to be modified in an important respect. What Popper took for granted needs to be introduced as a an explicit requirement. Popper assumed that the purpose of critical thinking is to gain a better understanding of reality. That is true in science but not in politics. The primary purpose of political discourse is to gain power and to stay in power. Those who fail to understand this are unlikely to be in power. The only way in which politicians can be persuaded to pay more respect to reality is by the electorate insisting on it, rewarding those whom it considers truthful and insightful, and punishing those who engage in deliberate deception. In other words, the electorate needs to be more committed to the pursuit of truth than it is at present. Without such commitment, democratic politics will not produce the desired results. An open society can be only as virtuous as the people living in it.
Truisms, maybe, but it is important to realise that the Enlightenment and its political system (liberal democracy) have fallen victims to propaganda, maybe as a result of their own success.

Display:
I'll return in the evening with more quotes from the book to clarify any points you may bring up in the comments.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 06:32:31 AM EST
European Tribune - Soros on politics
maybe as a result of their own success.

do you mean that the spread of cheap/free communication media permitted the more intense use of propaganda?

i've been wondering about soros, is he our friend?

his actions puzzle me sometimes,and his intentions are obscure, does he play both sides of the net?

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 08:11:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Also that the 'scientific' study of propaganda techniques is a result of the success of the Enlightenment project applied to the understanding of human communication.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 08:14:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Enlightenment never explicitly addressed morality. There were moral implications, but there has never been any notion of a 'moral method' which carries the same kind of weight as the 'scientific method.'

One of the moral implications is the perfect sovereignty of the individual, which leads naturally to late capitalism.

Unfortunately it's a doomed moral position. Perfect individual sovereignty isn't reality based, and leads to disasters on small and epic scales.

If there's going to be a re-Enlightenment it's going to need a morality of context and relationship which balances personal freedom with a rational awareness of consequences.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 08:37:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Enlightenment never explicitly addressed morality.
Kant's Critique of Pure Reason is supposed to be the pinnacle of Enlightenment Ethics. Whether the Categorical Imperative counts as a "moral method" is debatable. It certainly has not been attained the same widespread accceptance as the "scientific method".

Veblen traces liberal ethics back to Locke's idea of natural rights.

The modern theories of property run back to Locke, or to some source which for the present purpose is equivalent to Locke; who, on this as on other institutional questions, has been proved by the test of time to be a competent spokesman for modern culture in these premises. A detailed examination of how the matter stood in the theoretical respect before Locke, and whence, and by what process of selection and digestion, Locke derived his views, would lead too far afield. The theory is sufficiently familiar, for in substance it is, and for the better part of two centuries has been, held as an article of common sense by nearly all men who have spoken for the institution of property, with the exception of some few and late doubters.

This modern European, common-sense theory says that ownership is a "Natural Right." What a man has made, whatsoever "he hath mixed his labor with," that he has thereby made his property. It is his to do with it as he will. He has extended to the object of his labor that discretionary control which in the nature of things he of right exercises over the motions of his own person. It is his in the nature of things by virtue of his having made it. "Thus labor, in the beginning, gave a right of property." The personal force, the functional efficiency of the workman shaping material facts to human use, is in this doctrine accepted as the definitive, axiomatic ground of ownership; behind this the argument does not penetrate, except it be to trace the workman's creative efficiency back to its ulterior source in the creative efficiency of the Deity, the "Great Artificer." With the early spokesmen of natural rights, whether they speak for ownership or for other natural rights, it is customary to rest the case finally on the creator's discretionary dispositions and workmanlike efficiency. But the reference of natural rights back to the choice and creative work of the Deity has, even in Locke, an air of being in some degree perfunctory; and later in the life-history of the natural-rights doctrine it falls into abeyance; whereas the central tenet, that ownership is a natural right resting on the productive work and the discretionary choice of the owner, gradually rises superior to criticism and gathers axiomatic certitude. The Creator presently, in the course of the eighteenth century, drops out of the theory of ownership.

I might have to go back and read Locke...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 08:44:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Kant's Critique of Pure Reason is
I mean Critique of Practical Reason, of course.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 09:02:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Categorical Imperative has always been a bit of an ethical dodo. It begs too many questions, even in the original German.

It's certainly not rigorous, and the idea that there's such a thing as 'universal law' which applies equally to every individual in similar situations is really rather silly.

A more basic moral problem seems to be that a minority of individuals sees power as an end in itself, while a majority see mutual support as an end in itself.

Another segment of the population will happily follow whatever morality it's told to follow without questioning it.

It probably isn't possible to reconcile those positions. I'd guess the best you can hope for is creating a framework in which predators are forced to justify their existence by creating positive outcomes rather than disastrous ones.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 09:36:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So there has never been any notion of a 'moral method' because there cannot be one?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 09:50:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not without explicitly defining practical aims, no.

'Democracy' is not a practical aim, it's an abstract ideal. Which is why it's so easy to hijack the word and make it mean 'Colonial rule by an installed thug' - and keep a straight face.

'Open access to policy influence without filtering by cash or caste' is more of a practical aim.

Of course it's not any kind of philosophical absolute. But it doesn't need to be - it just needs to create results which everyone can experience directly.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 10:09:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not without explicitly defining practical aims, no.

That, then turns ethics into a political problem because you need to get a large supermajority of the population to agree to the practical aims before they can agree on what constitutes ethical behaviour.

Individual sovereignty, however unrealistic and ultimately destructive, is an easy sell.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 10:16:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
That, then turns ethics into a political problem

Ethics is always a political problem - abstract ethics become meaningless without practical relationships with other people and the environment.

Individual sovereignty, however unrealistic and ultimately destructive, is an easy sell.

Exactly. But it's inherently and automatically corrosive to practical relationships - unless it's tempered with some other more inclusive ethical basis.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 01:05:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But how do you sell an inclusive ethical basis without people defining themselves in exclusive tribal ways?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 02:37:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
With a politics of relationships, rather than a politics of groups. If certain actions and kinds of relationships are seen as immoral, tribal groupings are less likely to matter.

One of those relationship types has to be a comprehensive innoculation against charismatic leader/follower relationships.

It would probably be better still to round up all the predators and keep a close and permanent eye on them.

If you deal with the predators effectively, I think everything else gets very much easier. It's the predators who parasitise tribalism, and without out them it becomes much less of a problem.

I'm not sure what 'deal with' would mean in practice. I'm certainly not proposing shooting them all - more some sort of formal oversight and rechanneling of energies, with limited freedom for those who can't contribute.

Of course this seems draconian, and it goes against our indoctrination into the mythology of perfect personal freedom. But it's less draconian than allowing Hitlers, Mugabes and Bushes to run things. Because all they'll do is round up people anyway - and probably kill them too, one way or another.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 05:21:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:
If you deal with the predators effectively

problem being that to do that you need predators, of an incorruptible character, to boot.

then how do you keep them honest?

eliot spitzer comes to mind...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Sep 9th, 2008 at 04:27:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't expect your official predator of predators to be choirboys.  Hold them accountable for their public actions, but be aware that they may transgress on a personal level.  Easier to do for appointed rather than elected officials.  Police get cut a lot of slack for the  known effects of doing what they have to do.  Cultivate a public service ethic for these enforcers and be certain that the public face of such enforcement is always a career enforcer with civil service protection, not an elected official.  Tall order, but not impossible.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Sep 9th, 2008 at 09:35:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 Tall order, but not impossible.

i'd love to believe that, it would take genetic manipulation.

i hate it, the chinese do it, and we haven't for a while, (nuremberg notwithstanding) but execution would be the only fate that would put the fear of godde into them enough to stay on the straight and narrow, and even then some psycho risk-junkies would crap out, just to see if they could.

it's just so hard to eradicate selfishness and the corollary disprespect once it's installed in the person's OS from childhood, until we raise everyone with a conscience people will act out, and never so much as when they can gamble everything on it...

same reasons priests rape kids, the thrill of what's taboo, sociopathic urge to push the envelope in living a double life...

if you can't find /or have blocked out real, then the ache of life lacking meaning can give rise to a compulsion in some to go to the other edge, to live life with greater complexity and inner drama than what most accept more or less grumblingly...

that's what happens when adult bodies encase immature, unevolved value systems, it's fucked but there it is.

extreme fear would keep them straight, until we raise enough generations right, without implanting the terrible fears and insecurities, the existential dread that then gets covered up by anger, slow or fast-burning, because. their. life. should. be. better. than. this. they. got. gypped. and. someone. is. going. to. pay.

whoa this sounds like i'm channeling tony perkins on his way to the shower...

raise 'em right, or have to go medieval on 'em later.
cast secret ballots for who gets to be executioner, and of course cut him/her some slack over and above the fat paycheck (to pay for therapy?), hell they should have given eliot all the naughties he wanted, he was sticking it the Man, (as well as his 'escorts'!

semi-snark

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 05:40:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It would probably be better still to round up all the predators and keep a close and permanent eye on them.

If you deal with the predators effectively, I think everything else gets very much easier. It's the predators who parasitise tribalism, and without out them it becomes much less of a problem.

The problem is that those you call "predators" are not a specific, predetermined category. Most of the people, including probably you and me can become a "predator" (or behave like one) in certain situations. And it is impossible to predict if somebody could become a "predator" or not. History is full of examples of people who started as selfless idealists and, once in power (or after a certain time in power) started to behave as "predators"...

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 06:50:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
'moral method'

In this sense "moral" or "morality" derives from the latin mores, which in some of its senses referred to what was right according to custom and was understood to vary from society to society: e.g. sexual customs were  known to vary from one group of people to another and what was right depended on the customs or mores of that society.  There was multi-culturalism even in Roman times!

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 01:10:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Montesque understood this clearly.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 01:10:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's why I prefer ethics to morals. But as TBG points out, ethics is platonic.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 02:40:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And as currently applied, ethics has become compromised by ethno-centric morality to such an extent as to often make it an oxymoron.

We need a new term adequate to the task at hand.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 03:02:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
a minority of individuals sees power as an end in itself, while a majority see mutual support as an end in itself

That minority of power individuals looks pretty cooperative among themselves, while the majority does actually very little for mutual support. How much of their effort is not directed towards minute needs of themselves or serving the power minority? There seems to be little confidence that doing good to others is reasonable.

by das monde on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 10:07:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The idea that doing good to others isn't reasonable is, in part, a consequence of the adoption of (narrowly defined) economic rationality as a standard of correct behavior.

Dan Ariely's book, Predictably Irrational, among its other virtues, describes experimental behavioral economics results that reveal the fragility of social norms when these are forced into competition with market norms. It's a fascinating and sometimes profoundly disturbing book. I highly recommend it, even to those who have been casually following the literature in the area. (Fun to read, too.)

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Tue Sep 9th, 2008 at 02:57:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A more basic moral problem seems to be that a minority of individuals sees power as an end in itself....

The Authoritarians.

Another segment of the population will happily follow whatever morality it's told to follow without questioning it.

The authoritarian followers.

....while a majority see mutual support as an end in itself

The proverbial 'good men and women who mustn't stand idly by whilst evil flourishes'.

Have you read any of the above linked Professors' book? Or did I hear about it here from you? It's pretty much an expounding of your comment.

by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 01:50:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's been the background to a lot of comments here over the last year or so.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 05:22:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The French Enlightenment and its American adherents appealed to the Judgment of Posterity.  What must be kept in mind while dealing with the effects of the Enlightenment is that it was a phenomena of elites.  It could function quite effectively in the world of the late 18th Century through the middle of the 19th Century, as elites were all that mattered to governance.

Enlightenment attitudes never penetrated very deep into the general population, in fact, well less than 50% by my estimate in our contemporary USA.  And the Enlightenment greatly over estimated the role and power of reason. That has led to an academic devaluation of the "soft sciences" which, due to problems of verifiability and falsifiability, are actually much "harder" to do, in some senses.

Cognitive scientists such as George Lakoff work against a "credibility gap" compared to physicists and chemists and brilliant synthesizers of the work of modern psychology, such as Ken Wilber and Integral Psychology go completely unnoticed.  Wilber's work shines a bright light on our current problems while unifying inner perception with the external physical and social worlds.  He also unifies psychological observations from the Vedas to the present day into a comprehendible whole while providing the best exposition of pre-modern to modern to post-modern I have found.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 05:30:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Enlightenment attitudes never penetrated very deep into the general population,

I beg to differ: enlightenment ideas disseminated widely in the XIXth century middle class as well as working class. A lot of more or less clandestine "societies" fed a lively debate about the future society. It led to the creation of both trade unions and co-operatives and, eventually of the socialist movement.

It stayed quite lively (with ups and downs) throughout most of the XXth century until the end of the 70s. The Reagan-Thatcher neo-liberal counter-revolution promoting selfishness and individualism clearly targeted it ("there is no such thing as society") and heavily damaged it. However, it still exists in many places.    

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 07:03:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Forgive my ignorance, but I am unable to follow what you (and others) actually mean by the End of Enlightenment. Just what do you call the Enlightenment?

My understanding is that the Enlightenment is a label for a set of ideas which center on applying rational thinking to all aspects of the world. In this viewpoint, the modern world is as irreconcilably wedded to the Enlightenment as can be, and talking of the end seems nonsensical, no?

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$

by martingale on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 08:50:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In the USA in the late 1960s Time Magazine published an edition with "God is Dead" on the cover.  That didn't seem so unreasonable an assertion at the time.  But it deeply upset the fundamentalists and provoked a reaction. We know the problems with polls, but polls have been taken that show that a substantial majority of US citizens doubt that life is accounted for by evolution and prefer the story of divine creation.  The whole enlightenment project is under assault in the USA.

One of the most disastrous unintended consequences of the Bill of Rights springs from the 1st Amendments bar on the establishment of religion.  In European countries which have or have had established religions religious belief has withered much more thoroughly than in the USA. Perhaps we should establish a state sponsored Church of the Living God in the USA and let all of the fundamentalists duke it out for control.  Then they would be so busy fighting about religion that they would have no time for politics!

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 02:56:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
See Israel for a possible counterexample.

The effect of state sponsored religion on the non-religious is probably similar to what has happened in Europe. But the combination of state support and benefits, together with a high birthrate, is resulting in a gradual takeover of the country by the fundamentalists (which, like all unsustainable trends, can't go on for ever, but it's anybody's guess at what point it will stop). Do you really want to take the risk that the U.S would be more like Europe?

by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 03:34:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Truth be told, I am simultaneously being facetious and grasping at straws.  Were the same dynamic of deference to the fundamentalist by much of the still somewhat religious population occur in the US, as appears to me to occur in Israel that could be very negative.  However, the diversity of fundamentalists in the USA could make things more interesting here.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 12:12:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You can't use the European example. In Europe, the secular branches of the states had just finished doing an Atatürk on the then-established church and were setting up a new one that would be firmly under the boot of the secular powers that were (at least in the parts of Europe where this gambit worked - it didn't do much good for the counter-reformed countries...).

There is a variety of reasons - most of them very good - that pulling an Atatürk on a modern, reasonably democratic society would be A Bad Idea.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 02:07:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What seems to be at its end is the commitment of the ruling elites to rationality.

Many of the 18th Century Enlightened philosophers were ministers to their respective kings, and the Enlightenment has been an elite project.

Nowadays, when the elite subscribes to Market Fundamentalism and the political class shows time an again an appalling ignorance of the scientific/technical underpinnings of the way our modern world is organised, it is just conceivable that "the modern world" might unravel through wrong-headed management.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 12th, 2008 at 06:11:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I've often wondered how much the Enlightenment was really the political code for a war on theocratic Rome. 'Reason' and 'Freedom' were implicitly - and sometimes not so implicitly - opposed to authoritarian religion and its top down model.

Once the Market Fundamentalists co-opted those words they started to mean their opposites, and lost their potency.

This has actually been a semiotic war. There are plenty of examples of semiotic war from the end of the dark ages onwards, with people writing each other letters and arguing to define reality.

But the Market Fundamentalists have run one of the fastest and most successful semantic campaigns in history, completely debasing and perverting concepts which otherwise showed real promise and squeezing out competing narratives with terrifying effectiveness.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Sep 12th, 2008 at 06:39:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
According to Koselleck's wonderful Kritik und Krise the (French) enlightenment was certainly an elite project, albeit of a bourgeois elite which lived – by way of the architecture of the absolutist (French) state – in complete ignorance of and uninvolved with the political sphere, whence their trenchant and condescending moralising.

So they were certainly not “ministers to their respective kings”, of which Koselleck writes that they were, on the contrary, to “agree with the king against their own agony”.

by Humbug (mailklammeraffeschultedivisstrackepunktde) on Fri Sep 12th, 2008 at 05:26:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have to differ with you on that. I believe that the current ruling elites are very strongly committed to rationality, when it comes to their own affairs. As private persons, they trust their money to highly educated specialists (bankers, accountants...), they expect their kids to be exposed to the best learning institutions. In government, when it comes to their own military protection, the ruling elites prefer again and again to invest in extremely expensive technological solutions. The middle levels of government are staffed with many highly educated technocrats, who know their stuff.

I could go on, but you already see my point: whenever the elites act for their own benefit, they still prefer to surround themselves with experts, as a rule. This is not the case when they make decisions for others, and there is a lot more mismanagement there. We like to gripe about all our governments' failures in the Middle East, on health issues, retirement funds, etc., yet do those failures truly affect the elites as much as the rest of society? I don't think so.

The difference is not that great from the 18th century either. Kings' ministers didn't rule *for* the common people then, nor do they now. Social progress did occur, but it was paid for in blood. And today ministers have MBAs and PhDs, which admittedly didn't exist in the 18th century...

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$

by martingale on Sat Sep 13th, 2008 at 01:19:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Enlightenment evolved out of necessity. It may indeed have had its philosophical and ideological concepts elaborated by the elite but it was to affront the evident shortcomings and bankruptcy of the absolutist models. If one inquires into issues such as the administration of justice, the waging of wars, the resistance of feudal concepts, recurrent popular uprisings and taxation for example, it is apparent that there was the humus and the need for change.

Louis XIV reactive absolutist reign owes much to la fronde upheaval that would have granted new powers to the parliament and the judiciary. The defeat of la fronde "exiled" progressive thought to the parlors (the salons) and the province. The fables of La Fontaine are political treatise, just as the careful extraordinary works of the Bordeaux landholder Montaigne.

It is fitting that Louis XIV left the state in shambles. His reign simply postponed an inevitable revolution.

I do find that qualifying any major intellectual movement as elite is reductive and somewhat a tautology. There are simple requirements for philosophical speculation in periods of repressive zeitgeist- education, free time, a minimum guarantee of livelihood, a tolerated or clandestine network for the diffusion of works, a knack for dissimulation. It is rare that a serf or peasant could fill the bill. In the rare occasions someone rose from the lower classes, usually through the Church, he or she became "elite."

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Sat Sep 13th, 2008 at 08:03:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Rousseau is the most prominent exemple, although he didn't rise through the Church.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sat Sep 13th, 2008 at 09:05:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Another meaning of The End of Enlightenment is as follows. One of the central tenets of the Enlightenment is its universality (since it is based on reason and empiricism, it is independent of culture). It can be argued (and has been on this site) that the Enlightenment ended up undermining itself by showing this tenet to be false.

The Enlightenment sought to apply the scientific method that had been so successful in Physics to all branches of knowledge. In the late 18th century saw the great Naturalists began the transformation from Natural History to Biology and Geology. But in the humanities you had people like Humboldt (also a naturalist) who also laid the groundwork for Anthropology. And the thing is, the success of cultural anthropology in the 20th century has been to realise to what extent culture influences the way we reason about and perceive the world (i.e., the rational and empirical basis of the Enlightenment approach are culturally determined). In this way, the scientific study of human culture shows that the Enlightenment is itself a culture and not universal. This is the truth at the core of the Postmodern reaction to the Enlightenment.

Now that people wedded to the Enlightenment values are beginning to realise what's going on, we might have a positive resolution that goes beyond both the Enlightenment and Postmodernism. Thesis, Antithesis, Synthesis? That would be a Hegelian happy ending...

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 12th, 2008 at 06:50:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Another approach to the End of Enlightement is that its unspoken assumption that with the spread of education and democracy, people will behave more ethically, was proven brutally wrong by the rise of Hitler and his use of the full arsenal of progress brought by the Englightement to control Germany, fight wars, and execute the Holocaust. This is what the 2002 winner of the Nobel Prize in Literature, Holocaust survivor Imre Kertész, contends.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Sep 12th, 2008 at 07:13:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed, martingale contends in a parallel subthread:
Secondly, I don't see how the fact that a significant population is for all intents and purposes uneducated on these values can matter. In the 18th century (or 19th century for that matter), universal education was nonexistent, yet those are commonly associated with the Enlightenment. Surely, today's near universal levels of education in rich societies compares very favorably?
The value of democracy and universal education also features prominently in the writings of the 19th Century liberals such as John Stuart Mill.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 12th, 2008 at 07:23:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would suspect that values, whether national or universal, are more effectively inculcated through propaganda and repetition rather than education. While martingale notes that education had not reached present day levels in the 18th century Europe, the French citizen, for example, was systematically exposed to the words liberté, egalité, fraternité as slogans or signs. Their presence on monuments and buildings calls the formula to one's attention. Such signs became internalized and fundamental to public discourse. Perhaps one could call them "public axioms" such as the ubiquitous word "God" in the USA today.

While education is far more substantial in "fixing" ideals and values, cultural signposts serve to ground that knowledge as a shared experience. Without public recognition of values, they become a private experience. A sort of deregulation or outsourcing toward sporadic and local selfish charities.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Fri Sep 12th, 2008 at 12:57:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Mig
One of the central tenets of the Enlightenment is its universality (since it is based on reason and empiricism, it is independent of culture). It can be argued (and has been on this site) that the Enlightenment ended up undermining itself by showing this tenet to be false.

It is easy to conflate the "Enlightenment" with "Modernity," which was one of its children.  Another Enlightenment value was that social status should be based on merit, not birth.  It is also easy to forget that "western liberal democracy" was not the only political offspring of the Enlightenment.  

The other notable political offspring was the Soviet State. They embraced the same universal values as the others.  It can be argued that they were much more effective in identifying and nurturing talent wherever it was found than were most "western democracies."  

Universality proved very useful to the governance of a multi-ethnic, multi-cultural society. They had no use for nationalism or racism with so many nationalities and ethnicities.  Religion was suppressed in the name of rationality.  I am, of course, referring to the official dogma, not actual practice.  Apples to apples, as it were.

Since 1989 we have seen a general retreat from universal values and a rise of nationalisms.  This has  become the context to the rise of market fundamentalism.  But these universal values were never too well rooted anywhere, and were repeatedly overwhelmed by nationalism and racism in the 19th and 20th centuries.

 

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Sep 12th, 2008 at 01:07:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The other notable political offspring was the Soviet State. They embraced the same universal values as the others.
It is ironic that we forget the Russians so easily, since their stubborn insistence on using Realpolitik for everything is such an obvious nuisance to our revered mass media commentators.

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$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
by martingale on Sat Sep 13th, 2008 at 02:15:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This reminds me of something else you(?) wrote earlier, that the social sciences are examples of historical sciences rather than experimental sciences. The "hard" sciences have an advantage, in that reality is objectively measurable any number of times. There is no need for interpretation when observing the output of an experiment, although it is satisfying.

By contrast, historical sciences require interpretation, because alternative histories cannot ever be observed. It's obvious that interpretation has a degree of arbitrariness, which the postmodernists have rightly pointed out.

Yet in Physics, postmodernism has no place. The primary authority is the experimental result, and the interpretation is merely a convenient summary which can always be replaced or ignored. It is a second tool for answering questions, which complements the experiment, which can always be performed.

Does your Hegelian dialectic count as universal if it applies only to a subset of human knowledge? ;-)

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$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$

by martingale on Sat Sep 13th, 2008 at 01:56:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You exaggerate greatly when you say
The primary authority is the experimental result, and the interpretation is merely a convenient summary which can always be replaced or ignored.
Experiments need a theory to even describe what is going on, or if their result is surprising, why it is surprising.

But, in addition, the history of physics is as much the history of the theories as it is the history of the experiments. Or, in fact, more about theory than about experiment, with key experiments punctuating the transitions between successive theories. Don't get me wrong, I still agree with Sokal when he said

I confess that I'm an unabashed Old Leftist who never quite understood how deconstruction was supposed to help the working class. And I'm a stodgy old scientist who believes, naively, that there exists an external world, that there exist objective truths about that world, and that my job is to discover some of them. (If science were merely a negotiation of social conventions about what is agreed to be ``true'', why would I bother devoting a large fraction of my all-too-short life to it? I don't aspire to be the Emily Post of quantum field theory.)
and yet, and yet...

It is physics that represents a small subset of human knowledge. In fact, the more physics we know the less we need to know as the theories become more and more generally applicable. But for the last 30 years theoretical physics has become largely divorced from experiment. Instead of moving en masse to mesoscopic physics, theoretical high-energy physicists have marched onwards in pursuit of unification and quantum gravity with no experimental hints, with know (disastrous) results. The extent to which research in theoretical physics is directed by the likelihood of coming up with a publishable paper to put in one's CV for the next job placement 3 years down the line is positively postmodern.

Finally, "my" Hegelian dialectic is not about "Knowledge" but about structural narratives/frames/myths of a society.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 13th, 2008 at 03:13:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Experiments need a theory to even describe what is going on, or if their result is surprising, why it is surprising.
I don't agree. The results speak for themselves, whatever they are. When observations are published for posterity in journals and reports, it is with the understanding that the theory which is also included with the data might turn out to be wrong, but the data itself can be trusted (within experimental limits etc) and may be reused by others in future.

Why publish actual data otherwise? It would be sufficient to publish the theories, and just claim that they work.

However, you're entirely right that the choice of which experiments are significant (and therefore are the ones that should be carried out and published) depends on the theories of the day. So the succession of experiments is guided by the history of the theories. Is that what you mean?

It is physics that represents a small subset of human knowledge. In fact, the more physics we know the less we need to know as the theories become more and more generally applicable. But for the last 30 years theoretical physics has become largely divorced from experiment.
Now I think you're exaggerating too :) Physics is certainly a tiny subset of knowledge, but it's far from clear that we're close to a GUT. And if we were, so what? We still wouldn't be able to calculate a lot of systems for fundamental mathematical reasons. Paraphrasing Arnold: theoretical physics is the part of high energy physics where experiments are cheap.

The extent to which research in theoretical physics is directed by the likelihood of coming up with a publishable paper to put in one's CV for the next job placement 3 years down the line is positively postmodern.
Publish or perish is not just an issue in theoretical physics, yet even so good papers (though not all) will be cited, while the trash gets forgotten.

Finally, "my" Hegelian dialectic is not about "Knowledge" but about structural narratives/frames/myths of a society.
My calling it "your" dialectic was only intended as a light jab. However, I still don't see what postmodernism has to offer to experimental sciences.

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$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
by martingale on Sat Sep 13th, 2008 at 04:17:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
At the risk of repeating myself, this diary is not about the experimental sciences, it's about the dominant narratives of society.

good papers (though not all) will be cited, while the trash gets forgotten

When you do a literature search properly you quickly encounter the reality of the plagiarizing of reference lists. Papers are not quoted because they are good, but because they are quoted by other papers. Then again, you're right, just because they are listed in the references doesn't mean they have been read by the authors so, yes, the trash is forgotten.

for the last 30 years theoretical physics has become largely divorced from experiment.
Now I think you're exaggerating too :)
Not one bit.
it's far from clear that we're close to a GUT. And if we were, so what? We still wouldn't be able to calculate a lot of systems for fundamental mathematical reasons
We don't need a GUT - we just need the standard model with a right-handed neutrino. And the fact that we can't calculate is why I said people needed to have left en masse towards mesoscopic physics.
The results speak for themselves, whatever they are.
No, the results of the LHC experiments don't speak for themselves except after a massive, massive theory-based massaging. And it is the theory that allows a narrow experiment to have a broadly applicable meaning.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 13th, 2008 at 04:45:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
At the risk of repeating myself, this diary is not about the experimental sciences, it's about the dominant narratives of society.
Well I'm not trying to change the topic of this diary, so I don't mind leaving this thread for another time and place. We clearly don't agree on a number of things though.

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$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
by martingale on Sat Sep 13th, 2008 at 05:32:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm much more cynical about science than I once was.

But, seriously, most modern experiments make no sense without a theory.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 13th, 2008 at 05:33:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If an experiment is repeatable, the repeatability cannot depend on theoretical interpretations, surely? But no matter. I'm sure we'll have plenty of other occasions to settle this. Good fun :-)

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$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
by martingale on Sat Sep 13th, 2008 at 05:51:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but what does the experiment mean? Science is more than a collection of isolated facts. And knowledge is more than disorganised information (in, fact, doesn't a completely random signal have the most information? And must any information or entropy measure be computed with respect to a reference prior/null probability distribution?).

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 13th, 2008 at 06:06:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And must any information or entropy measure not be computed with respect to a reference prior/null probability distribution?

(key word missing...)

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 13th, 2008 at 06:10:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the experiment only means that you've interacted with the world. It's the model which has a meaning, namely the interpretation it induces on the actual observations.

Information theoretically, the meaning is in the prior and the likelihood. The amount of surprise is, too, since entropy is an explicit function of the model, and for a given datapoint it can take any value as soon as you vary the model.

Is knowledge more than a collection of facts? Yes, but I would say it's a construct built on facts. If we lose the theories and the models, we can rebuild them, or substantially equivalent ones, from the facts. If we lose the facts, we can't just simulate new ones and call them real.

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$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$

by martingale on Sat Sep 13th, 2008 at 07:20:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What about observations which are not repeatable?

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 13th, 2008 at 07:26:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's the crucial difference between historical and experimental sciences, isn't it?

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$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
by martingale on Sat Sep 13th, 2008 at 07:32:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Right. So "repeatability" is a special quality that applies to a subset of human knowledge. It's not that "postmodern" "textual analysis" doesn't apply to physics, it is that when studying physics one has to take into account the repeatability. And, to a certain extent, stationarity and ergodicity are model-dependent features. Within physics you have astrophysics or cosmology which are also historical.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 13th, 2008 at 07:39:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Within physics you have astrophysics or cosmology which are also historical.
That would be a reasonable statement.

And, to a certain extent, stationarity and ergodicity are model-dependent features.
As a rule, stationarity and ergodicity are directly observable on experimental data if you have it, and vice versa. It's by no means a given in all theoretical models, but it's a real observable phenomenon regardless of subjective prior assumptions.

It's not that "postmodern" "textual analysis" doesn't apply to physics, it is that when studying physics one has to take into account the repeatability.
I never claimed it couldn't be applied to physics, rather I fail to see its value when an oracle exists which spits out facts for any well chosen question. Thus physics is not limited by the insights of postmodernism.

So "repeatability" is a special quality that applies to a subset of human knowledge.
Another good word is "interactivity". In an experimental science, we can choose the questions we want to ask, and receive answers from the world. In a "historical" science, we must accept the answers we are given, with little or no choice in the questions. In physics, much effort is spent designing experiments to isolate the bits we care about, in archaeology we cannot ask what the ancient Greeks would have been like if they had had television.

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$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
by martingale on Sat Sep 13th, 2008 at 08:10:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thus physics is not limited by the insights of postmodernism.

No, it is limited by the extent of repeatability.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 13th, 2008 at 08:11:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree.

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$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
by martingale on Sat Sep 13th, 2008 at 08:18:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nonsense; your definition of experiment is overly restrictive. The observable universe is finite, but the number of stars, galaxies, clusters and so on is very large.
Just like the number of hadrons available for high speed collision, or elements to chemically combine, or bacterias to cultivate are technically finite, too.
Astronomers don't just point their scopes up randomly and write down what they see. They also design experiments. Some don't even require pointing a telescope, they just reuse existing images for analysis; see Galaxy Zoo.  Some experiments try to capture ephemeral events, see gamma ray burst: just because you don't decide when the event is going to happen doesn't make the experiment any less experimental. The results are reproducible, just not within a predetermined timeframe.
It is therefore fundamentally different from History, as a discipline; no matter how long you're willing to wait, you won't be able to reproduce a French Revolution. However, social psychology (see Miller, Cialdini ...) shows that you can obtain reproducible results by deriving abstractions and then designing experiments to test them. In other words, you can do science about anything as long as you're willing to get off your ass and do some real work.


A 'centrist' is someone who's neither on the left, nor on the left.
by nicta (nico@altiva․fr) on Thu Oct 2nd, 2008 at 10:36:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It may depend on the country to which one is referring.  The Masonic Orders were one vehicle for the spread of Enlightenment in Europe and the USA.  But they were so damaged by an incident in New York State in the mid 19th Century, where a group of Masons, including police and judiciary, demonstrably protected their own. This led to a massive reaction that virtually shut down the lineal descendants of the Lodges of the founding fathers. When they were resurrected later in the 19th cent. they were much more socially conservative.  Unions were a factor, but only the trade unions were of any significance in the USA until the 1930s.  The IWW, or Wobblies, were crushed militarily in the USA.

In the USA I would guess, and it is a guess, that no more than two to three times the number of college educated people had any significant exposure to enlightenment thought.  Prior to WW II and the GI Bill that was a rather small portion of the population.  And by no means did all of those so exposed become exponents of enlightenment values, particularly among the parsons and ministers.  And many of the educated were so involved in furthering their own interests that any concern about enlightenment values took a decidedly second place in their concerns.  Think lawyers, factory owners, plantation owners, judges, etc.  

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 09:03:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Let me rephrase the question. What core values represent the Enlightenment in your eyes?

Secondly, I don't see how the fact that a significant population is for all intents and purposes uneducated on these values can matter. In the 18th century (or 19th century for that matter), universal education was nonexistent, yet those are commonly associated with the Enlightenment. Surely, today's near universal levels of education in rich societies compares very favorably?

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$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$

by martingale on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 09:27:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Martingale, your 8:50 post was apparently made while I was composing my 9:03 post, and I have only just seen it.  To your last question: following Carl Becker, The Heavenly City of the 18th Century Philosophers:

1) World view: The Enlightenment was primarily a change in world view which came to see and explain the world in naturalistic terms rather than in religious terms.  It incorporated the humanistic emphasis of the renaissance, "man is the measure of all things." with a newly found confidence in the ability of the human mind to understand the workings of the natural world.  

The development of science from Copernicus to Newton provided the foundation for this shift.  Voltaire, among others, assimilated an understanding of Newton and an appreciation of his impact while cooling his heels in England in the early part of the 18th century. Locke provided a rationale for governmental authority separate from Divine Right, which had been the prevailing view.  This was a practical necessity in England after the beheading of Charles I.  

The Enlightenment Project, so called, came to include replacing all arguments from authority and all explanations involving Divine Intervention with naturalistic ones.  This was Adam Smith's great contribution.  He developed a comprehensive account of moral and economic organization and behavior that was independent of any Divine Supervision.  These were set forth most notably in The Theory of the Moral Sentiments and The Wealth of Nations  Smith did for the social sciences what Newton had done for physics.  

In all spheres of knowledge men sought to determine the Laws of Nature.  The nature of God changed from that of a theistic divinity to which one prayed directly to a deistic divinity who, if he really existed, had created, or was embodied in, the Laws of Nature.  This was known as The Clockwork Universe.  God created it, wound it up and let it go.  He retired from the world.

It came to be assumed, among the educated, that The Laws of Nature could be studied and apprehended by man.  This was a profound change from a world view in which God was the immediate author of all things and man was assumed to be incapable of understanding his inscrutable ways.  But this process was hesitant and proceeded over a long period of time.

2) Reason and History. The worship of reason during the French Revolution became infamous.  Most of the Philosophers sensed the inadequacy of reason alone as a guide to man in society.  In their heart of hearts they might have believed that there was no God, but Hume, Diderot and others refused to publish some of their best works during their lifetimes: Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion in Hume's case and Le neveu de Rameau in Diderot's case.

Reason showed them the absurdities of religion and led them to doubt the existence of God, but they had little confidence that they had an adequate replacement. They could see that an omnipotent, omniscent and omnibenificent deity was an absurdity, given the state of the world, but they had no satisfactory replacement. It was as though God had absconded during the night, leaving mankind in the lurch.  Hume said of his work: "It is true, but men cannot live by it."

Hume turned from philosophy to the study of history, economics and politics. They came to study useful arts and sciences and to compile these into Diderot's Encyclopédie and in England the Encyclopedia Britanica.  Experience had to supplement abstract reason.  As Priestly said: "Without history the advantages of our rational nature must have been rated very low."  Gibbon, Hume, Voltaire, Montesquieu and Herder all produced histories.  These histories were written to teach by example.  They sought to see through history the universal nature of man.

Per Becker, what they really did was to create a new religion. "The essential articles of the religion of the Enlightenment may be stated thus: (1) man is not natively depraved; (2) the end of life is life itself, the good life on earth instead of the beatific life after death; (3) man is capable, guided solely by the light of reason and experience, of perfecting the good life on earth; and (4) the first and essential condition of the good life on earth is the freeing of men's minds from the bonds of ignorance and superstition and their bodies from the arbitrary oppression of the constituted social authorities.

3) The uses of posterity:  The philosophers saw the future as a better world they were building and they looked to posterity for justification for their actions.  They sought to reclaim the world from the misery into which they saw Christianity as having sent it.  "For the love of God they substituted the love of humanity; for the vicarious atonement the perfectibility of man through his own efforts; and for the hope of immortality in another world the hope of living in the memory of future generations."

This is but a poor Cliff Notes of Becker's work and already too long.  The great virtue of Becker is his brevity, 168 pages.  The Heavenly City was written in 1932 and there are newer works available, notably by Peter Gay. But I believe Becker remains the best introduction to the subject.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 02:34:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks ARGeezer, that's very helpful. I'm a science graduate, so I recognize your description of the worldview quite well(*), whereas the other aspects are less familiar.

Yet upon reading your comment, I do not feel as if the current world is leaving Reason behind, which was my impression from some of the comments in this diary.

Technologically and scientifically, the world is essentially the same, only with less philosophy and more practical application.

The importance of education remains both high and widely recognized to be high. Throughout the world everybody, especially the poor, sees education as key to success.

There are comparatively few societies left around the world in which social status is rigidly based on blood or caste, as opposed to merely wealth.

It's true that religion remains a formidable motive force in the world, as it always has been. However, the number of nonbelievers remains significant and shows no sign of actually vanishing. This is a net "win" for Enlightenment given how it started.

It's easy to lose sight of the big picture though, from the bleatings of the media, which likes to scare us with terrorism, war with enemy empires, and assorted religious issues of the day. So I'm still unconvinced that we have entered a post-Enlightenment world.

(*) somewhat off-topic, but you might find this interesting if you don't know it already: Newton's contribution was, in various ways, a dead end for physics. Without taking anything away from his achievements, his ideas about forces are in most cases unworkable, and must be replaced by ideas about fields and least energy, which were actually proposed as alternatives by thinkers on the continent.

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$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$

by martingale on Fri Sep 12th, 2008 at 02:42:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Technologically and scientifically, the world is essentially the same, only with less philosophy and more practical application.

There is or was a tag line: "Our knowledge has exceeded our wisdom."  Gains in technical knowledge, unless classified, are described in technical journals and or patent applications and thereby become relatively permanent in nature. Many can see and apply the advances.  With the social sciences and the humanities is is very different.  

There have been advances in the social sciences, but they have not been adopted on the basis of their usefulness to society at large, but rather on the basis of their utility to those occupying the seats of power.  Worse, they often are no more accessible to the average citizen than are the findings of the hard sciences.  

One of the great weaknesses of  Enlightenment thought which persisted into the Enlightenment's child, Modernity, is the over valuation of the importance and power of reason. This is not to diminish the importance of reason, but to put it into perspective against the scope of the problem facing those of us who are awake.

Reason has so little scope in the effective decisions of so many people that the consequences are, or should be, frightening.  Consider Germany in 1932 or Russia in 1918.  There were people who understood what was happening and tried to do what they could to bring about a good outcome.  They were like leaves in a hurricane.  So often, especially in times of crisis, society at large is more like a vast ocean of unreason.  I am reminded of the prayer from the Anglican Book of Common Prayer: "Lord, thy ocean is so vast and my boat  is so small!"  Our reason is like a boat upon the ocean, but one that was not designed for ocean going voyages.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Sep 12th, 2008 at 10:08:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I realised yesterday that Soros is nearly 80 years old...

I don't know what he plays at. I think he genuinely believes in the Open Society. Too bad it took him until now to realise that there was a missing element in his blueprint for it.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 08:17:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, there is something touchingly (?) naive here. He and Popper were so concerned with the pursuit of truth that they didn't realize not everybody was? That the pursuit of truth has never been a recipe for worldly success and the obtention of power, less yet for holding on to power, and that very considerable manipulation of perceived truth was feasible for those who have power to hold on to?

The open society is indeed a post-Enlightenment ideal like free markets and the invisible hand, derived from the fallacy of the state of nature and natural law. There is no state of nature in human society. So, of course,

social sciences, including economics, should be considered historical and so that the scientific method doesn't apply in the same way.

What else?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 09:09:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, there is something touchingly (?) naive here. He and Popper were so concerned with the pursuit of truth that they didn't realize not everybody was?

I think that is a common failing of Enlightenment philosophies. You could say that the Rovian aide slaps Ron Suskind out of the Enlightenment dream in the infamous reality-based-community incident.

I think a number of us on this site are also trying to figure out after the Enlightenment, what? given 1) our self-professed commitment to rationality and "truth"; 2) the realisation that the Enlightenment programme has probably (successfully) run its course and (destructively) exceeded the limits of its applicability.

I mean, after reading Altemeyer's the Authoritarians, whither Democracy?

Maybe public accountability becomes more important than universal suffrage.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 09:28:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Machiavelli was an important precursor of Enlightenment. Perhaps we are just starting to realize practical applications of reason.

It is not so that the Rove guys are completely ignorant of reality. They are just working hard to obstruct or manipulate perception of the same reality for others. That looks rather rational from post-social-Darwinian perspectives.

by das monde on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 10:01:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They're not ignorant of reality, they use communication to manipulate the public.

As we know, the father of the Neocons, Leo Strauss, is an explicit advocate of the Noble Lie: people need to be lied to for their own good.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 10:09:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They even work rather well on people's rationalization capacities. Their wingnuts are pretty confident that they are rational!

What the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves!
 
On communication: progressives seem to recognize mostly rational communication (reasons, valid implications, information). But our souls probably trust other communication (symbolic, or emotional) better.
by das monde on Tue Sep 9th, 2008 at 01:45:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Giving up the Enlightenment really just means giving up detached Platonic absolute ideals - 'democracy', 'freedom', 'the invisible hand', 'reason', and so on.

In the enlightenment world view these - paradoxically - become gods which you're supposed to worship without question, and in return they'll look after you.

It's really quite a theocratic view of the world, and like all theocracies it makes it easy for parasites to hitch a ride on the ideals for their own personal benefit.

Postmodernism created an anti-absolute which demolished the absolutes without putting anything in their place.

I suppose a reality-based democracy would explicitly acknowledge the mechanisms by which people think and reason morally (which isn't usually all that moral or reasonable) and create systems of guidance and participation accordingly.

What's frightening is that the right has already done this, with huge success. It's repulsive to the left because on the left we like our absolutes, and it's crushing to acknowledge that they're not absolute at all.

I think it's possible to do it without the right's cynicism. But it's going to be a hard sell to a population which is thoroughly indoctrinated into parsing the world through convenient but wrong headed absolutes.

An unwelcome collision with reality would deprogram the brainwashing, but anything more subtle is going to be hard work.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 10:02:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:

Postmodernism created an anti-absolute which demolished the absolutes without putting anything in their place.

I suppose a reality-based democracy would explicitly acknowledge the mechanisms by which people think and reason morally (which isn't usually all that moral or reasonable) and create systems of guidance and participation accordingly.

What's frightening is that the right has already done this, with huge success. It's repulsive to the left because on the left we like our absolutes, and it's crushing to acknowledge that they're not absolute at all.

profound, as usual, tbg.

i never heard of 'anti-absolute' before, i suspect it's what the pope means by 'moral relativism'!

absolutes can be conceived in the mind, but are never borne out in reality.

maybe, like many forms of idealism, they serve as unattainable destinations, affirmations of remote possibilities, if only...

people would slow down and take a long hard look at their underlying realities, rather than skittering like dragonflies, sipping and hunting only at the surface of existence, as if to slow down and more on board might shatter their fragile vehicles.

lives lived with casual, scattered frenzy do not happy campers make...

what's for sure is that absolution must find new remedies, new pathways, since the ancient dualistic breakdown on right and wrong has... broken down.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 03:29:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Giving up the Enlightenment really just means giving up detached Platonic absolute ideals - 'democracy', 'freedom', 'the invisible hand', 'reason', and so on.

In the enlightenment world view these - paradoxically - become gods which you're supposed to worship without question, and in return they'll look after you.

Perhaps it depends on which "Enlightenment" you have in mind.  Adam Smith was perhaps the major figure of the Scottish Enlightenment, although I don't know that the term Scottish Enlightenment was used until recently.  In his Theory of the Moral Sentiments he attempted a complete recasting of morality on a naturalistic basis.  Nor in Wealth of Nations is there any evidence that Smith saw the Invisible Hand as the Left Hand of God.  I suspect that the Apotheosis of the Invisible Hand was the work of Milton Friedman in his propagandistic mode, as opposed to his academic mode.  Other earlier suspects could be found in England in the second half of the 19th Century amongst those who turned political economy into Economics for the University.  Hobson clearly described their motives.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 04:50:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I really must get around to reading Moral Sentiments soon.

As for the Invisible Hand and The Wisdom of the Markets - I'd be surprised if the Chicago-ists don't privately see this as a Straussian Big Lie.

The most remarkable thing about the US economy is that it's almost entirely state managed, and has been for decades now. There are a few relatively insignificant niches which entrepreneurs can busy themselves in, and every so often there's a giga-niche like the ones filled by Microsoft and Google.

But the fundamentals of the economy, especially on the demand side at the consumer level, are subject to constant pressure from deliberate market manipulation and the propaganda which is called advertising. Corporate welfare, especially on military spending is hardly insignificant.

A reality-based map of the US economy, with clear descriptions of tarrifs, pork abd earmarks, bubbles, demand management, and military welfare, would be an interesting thing to put together.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 07:17:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The way I understand it, they believe (or profess to believe) that the Invisible Hand is what is left when the state is removed.

The fundamental fallacy of this, of course, is that one cannot remove the state, since the state is, by definition, merely the gang of armed (wo)men with the monopoly on violence in your immediate environs - and violence is a natural monopoly... If one removes the Iraqi state, for instance, one does not get a "non-state" environment - one merely gets a number of statelets - the Badr Brigades in parts of Basra, Blackwater and Haliburton in the Green Zone, the Mahdi Army in Sadr City, PKK in Kurdistan and so on and so forth and etcetera.

But then again, discussing the logical and logistical implications of orthodox Friedmania is nonsense, because there are no orthodox Friedmaniacs. Whenever they crop up, they reveal themselves to be simply old-fashioned feudalists: The state should protect the privilege of the oligarchs and fuck the rest. If one can install a suitably co-operative dictator, it doesn't matter that the government budget explodes or that taxes go up - so long as they only go up for the poor and the government expenditures go towards protecting the interests of the local (or transnat) oligarchs.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 12:34:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I forgot where I was going with the first line: It is not impossible that orthodox Friedmaniacs would see the US political system as a legitimate expression of the free market. After all, US elections are bought and sold as commodities on a free market. In that sense, buying elections really is no different from buying mass advertisement: A calculated expense to procure services from another business that will permit your business to expand its bottom line.

And it doesn't really matter in Friedmanism that the barrier of entry to that market is so huge that only billionaires and companies can effectively do business there, because entry costs don't matter - The Market Will Provide.

And indeed the market has provided the US with the best politicians money can buy...

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 12:45:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That is a partial description of how they have behaved.  Since GWB, in particular, they have used these metaphors as the basis for actions that have facilitated a more rapid looting of the economy.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 03:40:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
JakeS:
But then again, discussing the logical and logistical implications of orthodox Friedmania is nonsense, because there are no orthodox Friedmaniacs. Whenever they crop up, they reveal themselves to be simply old-fashioned feudalists:

Bingo. And that's the big lie.

It's not that the Republicans want small government. What they want - genuinely - is a feudal government where there are no legal restraints on their ability to rape, pillage, plunder and abuse those beneath them.

The reason they hate liberals is because the liberal conception of compassionate government, no matter how flawed, is the only thing standing between them and their plans.

The current Palin/McCain hate fest is the true face of the feudal party. The peasants support it through conditioning and magical thinking, and as and when the party wins an election, liberals will be systematically eliminated from having any social influence. (Or possibly just eliminated, full stop.)

There is no Republican party, there's no Chicago school and there's no Christian evangelical movement.

There's only a single unified feudal party with different propaganda wings which expand a power front by leveraging the interests and preoccupations of different demographics with different imaginary manufactured narratives.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 06:06:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In Globalization and its discontents, Stigitz quips that sometimes the invisible hand is invisible because it's not there.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 12:59:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
TBG
As for the Invisible Hand and The Wisdom of the Markets - I'd be surprised if the Chicago-ists don't privately see this as a Straussian Big Lie.

I believe that Uncle Miltie deliberately conjured the Invisible Hand from the dead starting in the late 60s and began a process of inserting the concept into the media via right wing think tanks to lay a foundation for his project of rolling back what he saw as the evils of the New Deal.  It is hard to believe he took it very seriously.  Did he ever write a paper or book in which he attempted to mathematically model the effects of The Invisible Hand on the economy?

Tobin at Yale mocked the Invisible Hand rhetoric.  To paraphrase,(from memory): "You would think that after all these years that economists would have at least articulated the concept of the Invisible Hand to the extent that we could at least see the fingers."  I fail to see how Friedman and his associates could have seen the Invisible Hand and the Wisdom of the Markets as anything other than useful propaganda to spread amongst that layer of society which tried to keep up with events by reading Time, Newsweek and U.S. News and World Report.  Anyone who had ever taken a course in Economics was familiar with Smith and the metaphor.  That would facilitate the process.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 03:35:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Two recommendationd:

  1. First read Adam Smith In His Time and Ours by Jerry Z. Muller. 1993 He discusses all of Smith's work and brings it to bear as appropriate and puts everything in excellent context. 205 pages of text out of a total of 272.  Recommended by Robert Heilbroner among others.

  2. Consider purchasing the complete works of Smith in the Glasgow Centennial Edition as published by Liberty Press, Indianapolis, Indiana, USA.  They appear to be intellectual descendants of Ayn Rand, but they publish both hard copy and soft cover editions of the complete works of several philosophers, also including David Hume. The price is so great that I bought all of Smith and much of Hume.

Or perhaps you would prefer to download a PDF of this work. Libertarian organizations such as the Online Library of Liberty definitely have their uses!  (I just now discovered the OLL myself! Hope the documents are searchable.)

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 05:33:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think Al Gore's book The Assault on Reason might be another example of a powerful person waking up from their Enlightened slumber.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 11:05:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nothing like getting hit up side the head with a 2x4 to get your attention!  Too bad the whole world suffered the collateral damage.  He is a good man with a good heart, as was his father, but he lived most of his life in the Washington bubble.  As a beneficiary of that whole system it is very hard to summon sufficient cynicism to see it for what it is until you have been knocked down by it.  And then you can be dismissed: "Oh, he is just bitter!"  He has performed an amazing feat of self redemption.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 05:40:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Altemeyer's book is exactly what came to mind for me from TBG's comment above...
by gioele (gioele(daught)sandler(aaaattttt)gmail(daught)kom) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 01:57:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, it has been read and discussed here.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 02:40:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think a number of us on this site are also trying to figure out after the Enlightenment, what? given 1) our self-professed commitment to rationality and "truth"; 2) the realisation that the Enlightenment programme has probably (successfully) run its course and (destructively) exceeded the limits of its applicability.

That, in a nutshell, is why I am here.  Great diary.  Alas, I am at work and can't really contribute right now.

We all bleed the same color.

by budr on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 10:20:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the human mind being ceaselessly, amorally inventive, no sooner than you determine 'truth', and along comes 'truthiness'...

the irreverend loon comes right out and calls it 'divine deception',lol. the road to heaven is paved with bad intentions!

i think there is no permanent truth, except maybe 'what comes around, goes around'...

maybe buddhism called it 'the void' because it ran out of adjectives.

the only constant is change, etc.

the enlightenment correctly claimed that it's rational to be moral, the problem is there is a narrow time window to teach that in childhood, and most exit their families with some pretty distorted, conditional views on right(er) and wrong(er).

right being pretty much what you can get away with, and/or what peers are doing. (hedge fund trading, smoking weed, mp3 piracy all come under this heading.)

societies are still too full of cognitive dissonance to offer any coherent code that withstands modern trends, shame, but there you go...

meanwhile 'be kind, is that a religion?' remains one of my favourite mantras.

what will it take till we realise it all comes down to that, alla fine della fiera?

deep ecology could substitute for all we did with religion for millennia. no conflict with enlightenment principles there!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 04:24:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Given Soros' age and origin, I believe he is sincere but that he has realized the implications of the "post-modern critique" rather late and very recently.  While the critique is valid, most of its exponents indulge in turgid academic jargon that repels those outside of their field.  A grounding in post-modern analysis is a fundamental part of current graduate school work in history, anthropology and sociology as well as in literary criticism.  It is not the sort of field that the general public finds interesting.  Those who are part of or who identify with the dominant social group are much more likely to have attitudes of cultural superiority or triumphalism.  The more alienated one is from the dominant culture the more appealing are the charms of post-modernism.

I suspect that Soros came to his recent insights as a result of coming into contact with academics well versed in the subject via his Foundation.  He probably was trying to understand why so many of the things he has done in an attempt to help have been so counterproductive.  Given his wealth, abilities, heart and new-found insight, I wish him many more years to try to apply his assets and talents in a more effective way.

The most fundamental insight of the post-modern critique is that what we perceive as reality is in fact a social construct.  "Nothing is but that thinking makes it so."  As part of critical analysis of any cultural artifact, post-modernists "de-construct" the artifact and in so doing show how it arose out of  its society of origin and how it affects the world view embodied in that society.

This has both a light and a dark side.  On the bright side, there is no inherent reason we cannot make our world into a utopia, were we just able to agree on the form it should take.  Redefine reality in a way that properly accounts for the limits of ecology and human psychology and that provides a nurturing environment for human activity within the limits of a continually probing understanding.

Rove and GWB have shown us the dark side.  Consciously redefine reality in a manner that serves the interests of a small elite and to hell with any consequences.  That their wealth and power might not save them from the folly of their actions is irrelevant.  In light of the starkness of these extremes, it is at this point silly to argue over the direction that utopia should take.  We need all hands on deck to stave off looming distopia.  I think Soros will help and Pickens possibly will also.

 

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 02:50:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Great diary...

from the bunch of people of the left, the ones at least know a little bit about research and try to project it into left-wing circles Soros and Lakoff are probably the best... it is not perfect, it is clearly not perfect andthey might not get exactly the problem that enlightenment may have but at least they try to make other people see what we know as obvious and clearly demonstrated, enlightenmet is no different than other mythologies int he sense that people do not buy it jsut becuase they see it.

...not because it exists everybody is going to follow it blindly... it is just an option and other narratives out there and other mythologies are just as powerful as enlightenment... and looking for the truth, frankly, does not appear in a lot of them.

The idea that there is some kind of truth is hardly present ion other narratives, .... most people's myths and narratives do not give any spetial relevance to truth and certainly do not bring with them all the scientific connotation of truth...

And frankly, it makes sense becasue in a lot of our life experience, truth is irrelevant...the next step is trying to convince people on the left that enlightenment values and narratives are very hard to find... do not take as a given that people are going to make rational judgement (if it ever existed) ort aht theya re going to try and find what "really happens", or that they are not going to defend two completely different propostions at the same time...

Once they get that,w e may start discussing how we can improve our changes to get heard... they might want to have a look at the narratives and moral histories we are tryting to combine here with reality-based analysis.... they may learn something.:)

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 02:54:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think in some ways tho' Rove did hit upon a useful truth. In an age of 24 hour news where the new or trivial has almost wholly supplanted information  and analysis, politicians can so wholly dominate the news cycle that they can expect that their current spin will dominate the current cycle and the truth will be buried by the new spin dominating the next.

I guess it's like balancing plates, but with full-time staff.

So, now that Soros has had the life-changing realisation that politicians lie all the time and get away with it, does he have a solution ? The blogs seem to be a part of an emerging solution, but it only really involves engaged citizens. Finally politicians have to be held to account for their lies on more than an electoral cycle. But who determines how politicians are held accountable ? Aye there's the rub.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 11:07:37 AM EST
No, he patently doesn't have the solution. And as I say in another comment, I'd have to read Gore's Assault on Reason to see whether he, after also falling off the horse and/or having the scales drop from his eyes (whichever Biblical metaphor you prefer), has the solution or not.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 11:12:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 01:08:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A functioning civil society is a necessary and sufficient requirement for keeping politicians accountable.

In a society where the police and military balk at shooting their fellow citizens en masse, there is a great many ways in which an engaged citizenry can keep their politicians on the straight and narrow.

The problem today is that the Right has managed to sabotage civil society and eliminate the engaged citizenry.

But they haven't (yet) consolidated their position legally and institutionally in most first-world countries - at least not to the same extent as their economic policies. Which may turn out to be a mistake. If their economic policies take us back to the 19th century economically before their social policies take us there socially, the wingnuts may well find themselves at war with the majority of the population - with the police and military taking a neutral stance. Neutral in their favour, granted, but neutral.

And then they lose. Last time around they played even, and that was with the active support of the full repressive power of the state.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 08:32:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you look at Soros' efforts in Eastern Europe, both before and after the end of communism, it's all about building up a civil society separate from the state. That in turn was in part taken from the work by the dissidents of the seventies, particularly the Poles (specifically Kolakowski, Michnik and Kuron; plus some of Havel's stuff).

Amusingly enough these semi-ex Marxists were somewhat influenced by the early work of the founding father of Polish fascism, back at the tuwhen he was merely proto-fascist and brilliant, back at the turn of the century, not  his late phase when the antisemitism had completely rotted his brain. In particular a series of essays published in book form under the title "Thoughts of a Modern Pole" where he critiqued the Polish Romantic worship for conspiracy, clandestinity, and illegality. He argued that all of those carry immense carry large costs that are often unrecognized, and that in reality open and legal action, even when severely constrained, is more effective. He also thought violence was almost always counterproductive, since it sapped the nation of its best blood. (No moral issues - this is a guy who believed that spending resources to save a starving child of another nationality was deeply immoral and an act of treason. Still, rather a rather unusual viewpoint for a fascist).

I sometimes wonder if in a way organizing in a system where the Party-State claimed the right to directly control all organized activity, no matter how trivial, was in some ways easier. The lines were clear, much less worries about cooptation and the more insiduous forms of molding society to conformity that exist in more open societies. Perhaps that's why Soros has found it more difficult to accomplish things in the US.

by MarekNYC on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 09:39:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Monolithic party or state structures create single points of failure - witness how Solidarity was co-opted by the economic hitmen in The West(TM) who wanted to Shock Therapy Poland into a Modern Western Market Democracy(TM).

Also, the Soviets and their clients were clumsy. They suppressed civil society outright - which acknowledges implicitly that such civil society exists and is a force to be reckoned with. The Americans are smarter: They corral civil society into "free speech zones" and generally pretend that it doesn't exist. And after a while of pretending that civil society doesn't exist, it ceases to exist. At least as long as the bread and circuses keep working...

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Sep 9th, 2008 at 05:11:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think Soros's realisation has a longer history than his involvement in the US. After 1989, his Central and Eastern European foundations got their share of attacks from local nationalists, including legal ones, from Croatia to Moscow.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 06:51:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Jake S
The problem today is that the Right has managed to sabotage civil society and eliminate the engaged citizenry.

In the USA they effectively suppress civil society in part by making public discourse so repugnant that people turn away, all the while complaining about the tone of public discourse. That is on full display in the presidential campaign right now.  Consolidation of media has an inherently suppressing effect on public discourse as well.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 09:12:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would say that social phenomena share with ecology an evolutionary character, but the reflexivity Soros talks about is present only in social events and so while ecology might be subject to the standard scientific method, sociology is not (and neither is economics). [emphasis added]

Quite. Soros is apparently trying to think himself out of a box of Cartesian proportions and logical operators. "Reflexivity" cannot be the word he's searching for to describe a concept or a intellectual or material world history or even veridical attributes (T, F) of an ideology (e.g. economic literature, scientific method, physical "law") expressed by human events.

We are still waiting, as Jung pointed out, for experimental science to reproduce a thought. Muchless falsify a thought.

Recursion is the word and the procedure that produces, or yields, "truth" (e.g. agreement). By analogy to physical canon, "truth" is a homeostatic observation which tends to understate T,F states of the constituents underlying appearances.

Computer science is particularly helpful in demonstating how (syntax, terms, variables, coefficients, operators) sythesis occurs. Synthesis is a word meaning evolution insofar as the the product of the expression may also be one or more variables and one or more coefficients generated by the procedure. Who knows? All we study are conditional statements --the politics, the law-- which proscribe the limit(s) of the process.

T, F facts denoting any one expressed human behavior, individual or aggregate, are untenable though. Philosophically speaking, that collection of unknown (invisible but not undiscoverable) data is known as "reality" ("uncertainty" or "risk").

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 01:38:31 PM EST
When can we call an evolution reflexive? When it happens to develop components or features that make sense (or, say, are functional) only when evolution keeps going on (aka "technological progress will solve energy problems")? Feedback networks can develop pretty fast.

The T/F logic, or the understanding of "true" not-yet-fully-discovered-or-discoverable reality can fall into the category of Platonian models. It's like Euclidean geometry - however real the flat 3-dimensional space appears to be, it is still just a model. Particularly when it comes to psychology or social sciences, the logical category "true-if-you-confidently-believe-it" makes big sense. The "choice" of personal or common can determine much of the economy, social life, or ethics.

by das monde on Tue Sep 9th, 2008 at 07:24:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Brilliant Diary, Migeru. It brings together so many threads.

I just wish I had the breadth of knowledge and reading, and the analytical skill, to do it justice.

This Bear of Little Brain has long viewed the world through the lens of

Pirsig's Metaphysics of Quality

or

MOQ

which Pirsig distinguished from the conventional "Subject/Object Metaphysics ("SOM").

In essence he is saying that "Quality", "Truth", "Excellence" or "Value"  and even (dare I say it?) "God" are facets of an indefinable and holistic Reality (the "One").

We proceed through life at the cutting edge of Reality - Subjects constantly interacting with Objects - making instantaneous relative "Value judgements", and taking actions based upon these judgements, accumulating good and bad Quality experiences as we go.

European Tribune - Comments - Soros on politics

"We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

This statement by Rove is extremely insightful.

What he does not say is that the actions of actors like him are not random, but are made within, and largely the result of, a framework of rhetoric - the language we use, and in particular the legal protocols and frameworks which we have evolved to govern our economic and social interactions.

To quote Pirsig:


Dialectic, which is the parent of logic, came itself from rhetoric. Rhetoric is in turn the child of the myths and poetry of ancient Greece. That is so historically, and that is so by any application of common sense. The poetry and the myths are the response of a prehistoric people to the universe around them made on the basis of Quality.

It is Quality, not dialectic, which is the generator of everything we know.

So, if we wish to make the necessary changes, we have to create new narratives and frameworks to guide our actions, and these must be compelling to Joe Public.

That is why the "Peer to Peer" phenomenon of direct internet connections is so important, both in its novelty, and its "Telluric" effects.

I have long since ceased to make moral judgements and get worked up about the existing system.

IMHO it is necessary only to point out that there is something new here, and.... Hey! Look at the outcome, guys... the word spreads, and the next thing you know you've got a Napster, or a Hotmail or a Facebook spreading "virally".

The dinosaurs, Corporate and State alike, are already wandering around with their heads cut off kept going by the nerve centre near their arse.

The fact is that a new rhetoric is not only possible, but IMHO actually emerging, and it asks better questions of Reality.

ThatBritGuy:

Postmodernism created an anti-absolute which demolished the absolutes without putting anything in their place.

I suppose a reality-based democracy would explicitly acknowledge the mechanisms by which people think and reason morally (which isn't usually all that moral or reasonable) and create systems of guidance and participation accordingly.

Brilliant, TBG. I think that I follow Pirsig in thinking that it is a non-absolute that is the replacement.  

The point is that people do not tend to think or reason when making moral judgements, any more than they do when they compare one piece of music to another; one make of chocolate biscuit to another or whatever.

They make value judgements on the basis of their accumulated experience within the "frame" they take as given.

None of these judgements is absolute: they are all relative.

And once we realise that in fact "Money" is not an "object" but a relationship: and that the same is true for "Property" as well, then we can make sense of our economic interaction by participating cooperatively to mutual benefit within simple, but radical consensual frameworks and protocols.

In order to do so we need new language, of course, a point that Orwell's Newspeak recognised so well.

An example is "Public" = State is BAD and "non-productive", and "Private" = "Corporate" is GOOD and "productive" and the source of all "Wealth" - which is in fact claims over wealth issued by credit intermediaries....I could go on.

Let's point out that, actually, it's not just about the Public mammal and the Private reptile, but that there's this Platypus here which is neither, or both...

...in fact there's herds of platypi out there and that is where we find our response to the Roves of this world.

My intuition, backed by a lifetime of experience and a few years of analysis and observation, but with little empirical basis so far, is simply this:

"Ethical is Optimal".

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 04:07:01 PM EST
European Tribune - Soros on politics
The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

Something that has always struck me with this quote is that it is argued from a reality-based point of view.  If the quoted truly believes what he is saying, why does he need a rational argument to ignore rational arguments about the messes he is in part responsible for creating?

As such it has always sounded a bit desperate and pleading under the thick triumphalism: I am on the top of the world! Aren't I?

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 08:27:57 PM EST
i think it was quite possibly the most arrogant statement ever made by man.

one big FU.

what was it comes before a fall?

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 08:33:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hubris before Nemesis.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 08:55:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

As such it has always sounded a bit desperate and pleading under the thick triumphalism: I am on the top of the world! Aren't I?

We had better fucking well hope so!  He and his disciples  are not looking too bad right now.  Who would have imagined, after the way GWB and Company, guided by Dr. Rove, have screwed the pooch with both the war and the economy that after both conventions it would be essentially tied?

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Sep 8th, 2008 at 09:46:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I call it "retard colonialism."

This country has had it good for a long time, so we don't produce sharp, intelligent thugs like Castro or Putin.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Sep 9th, 2008 at 05:03:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A crucial diary and great comments. A privilege. ET at its very best.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Sep 9th, 2008 at 08:25:59 AM EST
A very rewarding diary and exchange. And I'll take my reflections from this last word- an exchange of views- which is the underlying principle of democracy, doubt as opposed to truth. The pursuit of truth does not imply truth but the processes involved in approaching an ideal much like Achilles and the tortoise. The ideal driving force of democracy is doubt and how to manage opposing views through commonly accepted rules.

Democracy very easily turns authoritarian. This has long since prompted constitutionalists to create adequate mechanisms of check and balances by creating separate institutions that are not necessarily democratic, precisely to be more refractory to any authoritarian democratic attempt to undermine the power of that separate institution.

The hard core of political thought on the modern state is "the conflict of interest." There is a general human need to deceive others as well as oneself to one's actual motivations, to mask one's interests. It is precisely this necessity to misrepresent one's intentions to others which is the basis of propaganda. In short we "use words to mask our thoughts, and thoughts to mask our misdeeds."

I would not be too sceptical to discount comforting formulas on democracy and citizenry. Rhetoric of that sort abounds without effect here in Italy. Unbridled democracy is tyranny. It is not the stuff of mankind so intent on personal interest and passion. Democracy flourishes best under solid constraints, the more the better.

As far as I know the "reality-based" exchange originated with Douglas Feith, not Rove.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Tue Sep 9th, 2008 at 06:16:05 PM EST
I am not so sure that one actually needs an unelected technocracy to provide a countervailing institutional pressure against popular authoritarian trends (I hesitate to call such trends "democratic:" Democracy takes more than elections - Gaius Julius Caesar, for instance, was elected (and popular to boot), but one normally hesitates to call him a democratic ruler...). The problem with unelected technocracies is that while they might be tremendously good at resisting insane popular sentiments, that same resistance becomes a liability if the technocrats themselves go insane.

While unelected technocrats are probably desirable in certain key institutions (the judiciary, the electoral system and the prosecution in criminal trials are the ones that spring prominently to my mind), I would personally prefer to avoid complete technocracy if possible.

I think that one will generally find that people become less easy to manipulate and propagandise to the closer they are to the subject under discussion. If you commute by car, it's easy to pretend that rail service gets both cheaper and better through privatisation. If you commute by train... it's a much harder sell.

So I would prefer "democracy" to be governed, whenever practical, by governing bodies representing all the primary stakeholders.

In a university setting, this works exceedingly well: Until 2003, Danish universities were governed at all levels by committees composed of equal parts students and faculty (and non-faculty staff where applicable). All of these representatives were directly elected by the people they were supposed to represent and acted very nearly completely independently of the levels above (except that on the student side we had an effective bottom-up democratic structure that ensured that the upper levels rarely worked at cross purposes with the lower ones).

Of course all of this was smashed by the Fogh I government as part of their purge of the inconvenient parts of civil society...

I think, however, that the model of limited jurisdiction, limited electorate and a high degree of independence from political bodies with a wider electorate has wider applicability than just a university setting.

Hospitals, for instance, could be run by boards where the medical staff, janitorial staff and patients (and relatives of patients), plus whatever other primary stakeholders one can identify, are represented. Either all three being co-equal in voting weight or patients (the citizens) being co-equal with the total of the staff (the technocrats), whichever seems to give the best results.

It becomes a little trickier with mass transit, electricity and other utilities which don't have a well-defined user group to represent the citizens (or where the user group is so large that it becomes co-terminus with the municipality, country, region or continent), but I am not convinced that it is fundamentally not doable.

Now, how precisely to insulate these bodies from parliamentary madness is another subject... I have a couple of ideas, but all of them basically boil down to reducing the power of parliament to regulate the workings of the state in detail, which obviously has a number of drawbacks in the event of a sane parliament.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 12:23:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem with unelected technocracies is that while they might be tremendously good at resisting insane popular sentiments, that same resistance becomes a liability if the technocrats themselves go insane.

For instance, when Whitehall, or the French Civil Service, or the EU Commission, or the IMF, or the US government agencies... get infected with Market Fundamentalism.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 12:54:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would nominate "Market Fundamentalism" as a known form of mass abnormal psychology, were it not so "normal."

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 09:22:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
i think you can go right ahead, mass psychosis is even more accurate, imo.

lying has always been around in artisan form, so to speak, it was after anna freud and bernays got together and mixed the potions to form propaganda to fit television, that lying became an industrial process, with every new medium since co-opted to become part of the conveyor belt of bullshit that covers most of the audio-visual sphere, with pretty much only these intertubes allowing some truths to slip through the mesh, here and there, now and then.

watch 'madmen', if you haven't, they nail the era to a T, the sleek pseudo-perfection propounded as the new 'normal', attainable one more consumer item away, a prostitution of creative imagination more cynical and sophisticatedly manipulative than anything up to then.

psychologically the outside of the box became more important than what was in it, so the ounce of flour and pinch of baking powder became 'aunt jemima's pancake mix' (value added 500%), and now we get regurgitated fascism served up brightly wrapped in gaudy packages of 'freedom brand', 'democracy-with-new-ingredients' etc.

cons have been around for ever, this was a weapon of mass destruction that was cooked up, (one part freud to two parts goebbels), as much or more than anything out of los alamos.

darkness at noon...

this was the age when brain-washing became a household word, inspired also partly by stories about oriental torture techniques designed to drive people out of one identity into another, better shaped cog. the 'twilight zone' and hitchcock's heyday provided a cultural backdrop to this mass alienation, which has now become the norm, the matrix in which we swim, the dread anglo disease... been down so long, it looks like up to me.

ronald laing saw it quite clearly, bless 'im!

george orwell saw it coming better than anyone and tried so to warn us.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Sep 12th, 2008 at 06:23:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
All modern constitutions provide for checks and balances against conflicts of interest. Whether they are elective or by appointment is not so much the matter as introducing a measure of chance and a term of office in most cases (the hardly sane J.Edgar Hoover comes to mind). An elected president will have to deal with an autonomous institution whose head was appointed by a previous president. Further any appointee must cope with internal bureaucracies and their experts.

It would be farcical- as is the present situation in Italy- in which whoever arrives to power can force inconvenient autonomous personalities out of their institutional role so as to reinforce personal power. The spoils system must have limits.

In short one must create the conditions where the efficacity of power is effectively balanced by the necessity of regulated conflict between and within institutions.

Another grave problem in law-making in Italy is the possibility to make de facto retroactive laws, ad personam laws, and contra personam laws. Fortunately that does not appear to be the case in the States where constitutional change necessitates a lengthy ratification process that would vanify any personal motivations to action. Further, retroactive laws are expressly forbidden in most constitutional orders.

Thanks very much for your very interesting examples within Danish society. I might add however that the sovereignty of only primary stakeholders within a corpus excludes minority stakeholders thus laying the ground for a tyranny of the majority. Perhaps it's only a question of wording. Modern "democracy" must safeguard the rights of minorities above all.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 01:50:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm afraid that I misworded my sentiment about stakeholders. By "primary stakeholders" I mean those who are directly affected by the governance of the body in question - such as patients in the case of hospitals. As opposed to "secondary stakeholders" who are only indirectly affected - such as a taxpayer in the hospital example.

There is absolutely no requirement in principle that the primary stakeholders represented in the governing bodies must also be the biggest stakeholders. Although of course it will be impractical to include every subgroup of a subgroup of a fraction of a group of primary stakeholders.

In fact, the entire point with this kind of devolution is to empower people who would otherwise be hopelessly in the minority. If you will permit me another Danish example, the city council of Copenhagen wants to implement congestion charges. Now, it just so happens that the mayor of Copenhagen is a Social Democrat and we have an irresponsible government. So the project gets sabotaged by Parliament - rather effectively, unfortunately.

I would argue, however, that Parliament is not the body that has legitimate democratic jurisdiction over this issue, because the majority in Parliament is elected in parts of Denmark that will feel next to no direct impact of a better regulation of traffic in Copenhagen. In effect, this is not government by the consent of the governed: It's government by the consent of the governed plus a lot of people who are only connected with the governed by the arbitrary administrative division called a country border.

To put it a bit more bluntly than it perhaps deserves, it is as absurd for people in Jylland to vote on Copenhagen traffic issues as it is for people in Berlin or Rome to do so. The Copenhagen city council isn't the most legitimate democratic body to decide the issue either, because it doesn't involve all the relevant stakeholders (think, e.g., commuters in the suburbs). But it's a hell of a lot closer.

And indeed, if you poll people I would be willing to bet a bottle of good beer that you would find that the traffic situation in and around Copenhagen is not among the top ten (or even top twenty or top hundred) issues that determine which way a voter in the other side of the country jumps. So not only do those people have no primary stake in the traffic situation in Copenhagen, they most likely cast their vote completely independently of it. That's hardly a democratic mandate in any ordinary sense of the term.

W.r.t. elected vs. appointed positions, I agree completely that what matters is that the interests of the primary stakeholders (in the above sense of the term) are protected. I merely wanted to point out that infatuation with technocracies is just as dangerous, if in different ways, as infatuation with elected bodies. I myself am irritated no end by the people who mindlessly repeat the mantra "well, s/he was elected democratically, so duh!" about some office-holder who does something utterly anti-democratic.

In fact, I had that very discussion with a co-worker about the just-former Danish minister of justice internal security. She (the ex-minister, not the co-worker) is the one who's given the Danish secret police the power to do "administrative deportations" - that is, deport non-EU citizens without trial if the secret police claims that they believe the deportee(s) to be a clear and present danger to Danish security or sovereignty. Oh, and she also gave the police the power to do "preventive arrests" - that is, round up anybody who looks like he is going to make trouble (basically this means football hooligans, communists, anarchists, Greenpeace activists and uppity brown people) and lock them up "preventively" for up to 24 hours. (And those two are just the two worst examples, there are plenty more where they come from...)

By my score that makes her just about the most undemocratic person in the Danish parliament. But "she's democratically elected, so obviously she's a democratic politician." In response to which I usually sneer something about the Hamas government being democratically elected as well.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 03:07:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You have an excellent point there on how an extraneous body can effect local decisions, usually, it comes to mind, by granting or blocking funds. I recall the US Federal government used to force states to enforce a 55 mile speed limit by simply cutting federal funding to those states who refused to comply.

In Italy it is a major issue. The Minister of Treasury and the parliament will block funds that are due to a city, province or region simply on partisan political grounds. A classic example is when the previous Berlusconi government blocked money that the state owed to the Region of Sardegna simply because it is run by a Left coalition, and at the same time passed an ad hoc law that rerouted identical but undue funds to Sicily to help the rightwing further consolidate its hold over that region.

Invariably these case make it to the Constitutional Court or the European Court where, after a long time, a favorable sentence to the plaintif is meted out. It is however not an effective victory since there is little to repair the damage done. Further the rightwing government steadfastly ignores unfavourable sentences. After all they needn't pick up the bill.

As far as the present situation in Italy, I will repeat that I do not consider the Italian parliament "democratically elected." Parliamentarians are appointed to office by the winning parties after a sort of beauty pageant formally called an "election."

Have the security laws you mentioned been taken to court or are they an object of a petition for a referendum to abrogate them?

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 04:44:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In theory public systems, like a mass transit system, are controlled by Public bodies, either a direct elected board or a board appointed by elected officials.  I've seen both work and both not work.  

Ultimately it comes down to the citizen's willingness to "Vote the Bastards Out."

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Wed Sep 10th, 2008 at 08:22:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But - as I argue above and as I have argued in previous discussions about the appropriateness of parliaments making decisions on behalf of the people, there is the problem that:

  1. Having a single parliamentary body making decisions on a wide range of issues means that there is a very low probability that any given citizens will be adequately represented by any party on offer (obviously, this involves a tradeoff between efficiency and directness of representation, but I find the currently prevailing attitudes skewed too far away from direct representation).

  2. The electors for any given parliamentary body may or may not be identical to the stakeholders in any given issue that the parliamentary body rules on.

Essentially, I guess that what I'm saying is that parliamentarianism has a number of built-in weaknesses that need to be addressed. Certainly, some parts are salvagable, some parts are downright good and some parts are simply indispensable. But some parts don't work, and I think it behooves us to acknowledge that.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 03:09:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is a rather late comment in the game. I could not quite take for granted certain statements by Soros concerning Popper, as if for rhetorical purposes he wishes to use a supposed failing of Popper to put his own shortcomings in perspective. This would however entail a secure knowledge of everything said by Popper throughout his intellectual career, especially in light of the fact that Soros was a student of his.

In his book,The Open Society and Its Enemies, Popper discusses at length the nature of lies, propaganda and truth in several chapters, most notably Book 1, Chapter 8. He further acknowledges that one must "bear the cross" of reason, responsability, humanness, and the pursuit of truth (not Truth!) in order to prevent slipping back into an idealized closed society.

It is splitting hairs on Soros part to represent this "cross bearing" as "taken for granted" rather than being an "explicit requirement." Popper's arguments on power and falsehood find further force in the epoch in which he lived characterized by the rise of totalitarian regimes throughout Europe as well as the historical period he analyzed, the upheaval in Athens between the democratic Pericles and the 30 year reign of terror, through the works of Plato.

Although Soros may certainly have elaborated his arguments- I have not read his work- I find his proposal weak and rhetorical:

The only way in which politicians can be persuaded to pay more respect to reality is by the electorate insisting on it, rewarding those whom it considers truthful and insightful, and punishing those who engage in deliberate deception. In other words, the electorate needs to be more committed to the pursuit of truth than it is at present.

What exactly is an electorate in this case? Just how often is "the electorate" called to express itself? That is a pale shadow of Machiavelli's "ferocious" popular vigilance, but those were different days when political murder and oligarchies were routine.

Soros does elaborate on the argument in an article "From Karl Popper to Karl Rove - and Back" yet once again concludes that it's the electorate that counts while previously discounting the checks and balances of constitutional order.

Frankly, "the electorate" doesn't matter. What matters in political strategy is not the electorate but the "lazy elector." The lazy elector is (fortunately) a small minority that has no interest in politics, is moved by transient passion, yet is sufficient in number to make the difference when the tyranny of numbers is tallied. The nature of modern propaganda is aimed at motivating the lazy elector to vote. So long as the lazy elector is sufficiently motivated to vote, a political strategy based on reason starts the race with a notable handicap.

Whatever the solution, I find little solace in Soros.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Thu Sep 11th, 2008 at 06:06:59 PM EST
Soros doesn't have the solution, I just found it interesting that he diagnoses the problem in a book on the Credit Crunch of 2008. But he does confess in the book that he has been inserting philosophical digressions on reflexivity in all his published books, since The Alchemy of Finance 20 years ago.

Thank you for going back to the source and checking what Popper actually said.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 12th, 2008 at 06:02:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The only way in which politicians can be persuaded to pay more respect to reality is by the electorate insisting on it, rewarding those whom it considers truthful and insightful, and punishing those who engage in deliberate deception. (unquote Popper)

Politicians cannot be "persuaded" by an electorate "insisting" on "reality," "rewarding" truth and "punishing" liars, unless that electorate has a reliable connection with reality beyond what the unreliable politicians (and media) tell them.

In the US we have strong "truth in advertising" laws pertaining to commerce, but none whatsoever covering political discourse. This will have to change. Political lies, perpetrated by corporate media, are steadily destroying every principle we supposedly hold dear.

by Ralph on Mon Oct 6th, 2008 at 05:03:00 PM EST
(The quotation is from Soros, not Popper.)
by Ralph on Mon Oct 6th, 2008 at 05:04:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you're right - sorry I didn't see your comment earlier, this diary had already fallen off my radar.

Paradoxically, JK Galbraith argues that maybe "truth in advertising" laws are counter-productive because they induce the public to lower its guard and be more likely to take advertising at face value.

A vivid image of what should exist acts as a surrogate for reality. Pursuit of the image then prevents pursuit of the reality -- John K. Galbraith

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Oct 20th, 2008 at 06:24:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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