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My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century

by pereulok Wed Jan 28th, 2009 at 05:53:03 AM EST

I was reading a story from the Polish Sci-Fi writer Stanislaw Lem (you know, the writer of Solaris), and, as always, enjoying the high amount of philosophical, ethical and social elements underlying in science fiction. And thinking how strange for me was to be fond of a Polish writer... As someone I know would say, Poland isn't within my "surrounding countries", culturally speaking. That means that cultural background one get in Spain in High School years (the important ones for this), regarding not only literature but also history, focus in Europe, but Europe ending at the old Iron Curtain, getting Anglo-Saxon when you add US and sort of Spanish-speaking adding Latin America. If you ask me, Northern Africa and other parts are still not at that level, becoming part of our background only as "complaint areas" (areas where things happen you go to demonstrations to fight against).

So I wrote a Polish friend congratulating her for having such a wise man within her co-citizens... And we exchanged some e-mails on other wise Polish people.

So... I thought of proposing you a small, braimstorming post to promote recent wise men and women...

  1. 1 Not more than 5 names.
  2. Living in the 20th Century

I know that maybe there are more than 5 you consider wise, but... Brainstorm yourself, let´s see which are the ones that come to your mind first and fast...

Include just a brief description or a link (Wikipedia can do).

I underline the word WISE... There are so many people one can consider intelligent, smart, cultivated, scientifically sound... Wise is... dunno. Subjective, I suppose :)

Hope you enjoy the idea. I´ll start with my friend's Polish list and my own fast Spanish one...

POLAND (MK)

SPAIN (Pereulok)

Display:
My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century | 50 comments (50 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
Finland (none / 0)
The Finnish classic list

George Henrik von Wright
Helene Schjerfbeck
Jörn Donner
Kaija Saariaho
Kari Kairamo

The alternative list

Linus Torvalds
Armi Ratia
M.A. Numminen
Esa Saarinen

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Jan 28th, 2009 at 06:30:00 AM EST
Re: Finland (none / 1)
The alternative list is missing Tove Jansson!

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 3rd, 2009 at 03:49:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (4.00 / 2)
Hey! Full endorsement for Lem - I wrote A late homage to Stanisław Lem for ET when he died.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Jan 28th, 2009 at 06:34:34 AM EST
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (4.00 / 2)
A great piece of work, that homage, DoDo... Better writing it late than never, better reading it late than never :)

"If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none." (Fahrenheit 451)
by pereulok on Wed Jan 28th, 2009 at 09:55:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 1)
Throw in a Scientist or two! For Spain, maybe Santiago Ramón y Cajal (1852-1934) Neurophysiologist.

My own list of wise people would also include



Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 3rd, 2009 at 04:03:11 AM EST
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (4.00 / 2)
I would have a difficulty even if the constraint is just wise men. As you say, that's not the same as clever; it isn't the same as having major achievements either. In my book, true wisdom also means a record of wisdom in various fields of life, so to say someone is wise, I would have to know that person's biography relatively well.

I would have named Lem. Also, SPIEGEL founder Rudolf Augstein. Then I would have to think a lot to pick another two. Which I began, trying to constrain it to Europe; but then noticed the much narrower constraint of a national four.

Well, if I am allowed to pick myself a nation/country, I would go for Germany, from where writer Günter Grass or maybe Kurt Tucholsky might qualify as wise.

If I have to go with Hungary, the trouble is, I can't think of anyone from the 20th century coming close to my idea of "wisdom" without major failings. Maybe I could name two of these:

  • Attila József (1905-1937): a proletarian poet and occasional journalist (his death was long thought to have been suicide, but newer research suggests he was 'just' climbing through a train between two cars when the train started)
  • Gáspár-Miklós Tamás (1949-): philosopher, essayist, activist, for some time politician; he swung from youthful Maoism to small-r republican liberalism until he was confronted with US reality and returned to the hard right, about the only public writer with original thoughts in the Hungarian-language media but he has a tendency to carry himself away


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Feb 3rd, 2009 at 10:33:33 AM EST
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (4.00 / 3)
Maybe this is very Dutch (I know Nomad would say so) but I'm more drawn to people who are extremely sharp but sometimes decidedly unwise. Like W.F. Hermans.

It could also be that there is a dearth of wise Dutch people in the 20th century.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Feb 3rd, 2009 at 05:03:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 1)
I am adding two sociologists: Erzsébet Szalai and Mária Vásárhelyi. Both started out in the liberal opposition (when that still had room for social liberalism). But Szalai became a tireless analyser and chronicler of the social destruction wrought by local neo-capitalism, while Vásárhelyi had more focus on history and historical consciousness (consequently she became a hate figure for the far-right). Both are independent-minded -- and both lack influence.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 at 05:28:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 0)
You are very exigent... :)

I don´t know about Attila József, but I was in Budapest last weekend and I loved the statue, if ig gives you the feeling that wiuld give reading him, I would like to read him... But poetry in Hungarian... I will never be able...

"If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none." (Fahrenheit 451)

by pereulok on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 at 07:21:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 1)
Attila József is one of the more often translated poets from Hungary. Given his interest and sympathies in the SPanish Civil War, I'd imagine into Spanish, too.

I found a few here. There is a video of one poem delivered by Antonio Banderas (ignore the intro of the idiotic show host and scroll to 00:30).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 at 07:39:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (4.00 / 3)
OK, I´ll read that... However, he is a poet, and as a poet, unstranslatable (made up word???). Versions vs. per-version...

But he was also a journalist...

Hey, that´s funny. TRanslated to Catalonian :)

The one Antonio Banderas read is so much as León Felipe... I wonder if someone translated Leon Felipe...

Porque .... ¿qué voy a cantar si no tengo ni una patria,
ni una tierra provinciana,
ni una casa
solariega y blasonada,
ni el retrato de un mi abuelo que ganara
una batalla,
ni un sillón viejo de cuero, ni una mesa, ni una espada?

¡Qué voy a cantar si soy un paria
que apenas tiene una capa!

"If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none." (Fahrenheit 451)

by pereulok on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 at 08:02:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 0)
returned to the hard right

Eh, I meant hard left...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 at 07:41:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 1)
Imre Lakatos?
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 at 05:06:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (4.00 / 3)
Bob Dylan, John Steinbeck, Martin King, Franklin Rooseveldt, Kurt Vonnegut.

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson
by NearlyNormal on Tue Feb 3rd, 2009 at 12:30:52 PM EST
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 1)
Daniel Pennac, b.1944, Author

Michel Onfray, b.1959, Philosopher, Epistemologist, Creator of our Popular Universities.

Jean Jaurès, 1859-1914, Politician, pacifist. Assassinated by a right winger who was (guess it...yes) acquitted. Founded France's longest running people's newspapers, still very high quality and independent.

Georges Marchais 1920-1997, Politician, statesman and humorist. (Ok, there had to be one you all don't like at all too.)

¨Pierre Bourdieu 1930-2002, Sociologist, social and literary critic.

Five is too few for France you know, maybe it is enough for other countries...some might get by with one or two, but France it isn't many.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Feb 3rd, 2009 at 12:33:41 PM EST
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 0)
<<Five is too few for France you know, maybe it is enough for other countries...some might get by with one or two, but France it isn't many>>

Interesting... Do you think that France will have more wise men, or just more reknowed wise men?

"If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none." (Fahrenheit 451)

by pereulok on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 at 07:22:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 1)
Heh.

I think it's more a far more developed (than other Western European countries, possible exception of Spain and Italy, the latter of long ago unfortunately) body of progressivism, as opposed to other places.

In the Eastern countries, there is this too, but they are ashamed of that part of the heritage for now, so for instance, no one talking of Hungary puts Georg Lukacs. I would have put him for sure, if he were French I'd put him too. But, not in today's Hungary, I guess. And in other former bloc countries similar is true.

Germany has an unfortunate 20th century history else the list would be easier and longer as well.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 at 08:32:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 1)
I must admit I'm not familiar enough with the life and work of György Lukács to tell. For that matter, the same is true of István Bibó. But, I know that much about both that they have been thrown around a lot by the storm of the 20th century, both in life and ideology, so I would probably not grant "wise" (as opposed to clever, or even the producers of wisdom) even if I knew either of them better.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 at 01:18:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 1)
Personally, I think Lukacz' work stands up to the "test of the passage of time" test every bit as much as Gramschi, so whatever the reality of the buffeting around by history (which is also sort of my point) he goes on there for me.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 at 04:50:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 0)
Which time are the works you are familiar with?

Based on some read-up, I am guessing 1956-1967?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 at 06:27:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 1)
Much earlier. His really groundbreaking, defining work is History and Class Consciousness, back in the 1920's.

But also, the life he led (he was in Moscow during the purges) and the risks that he took all the while holding true to principles (he had to go into exile after 1956 due to stances taken then, but he went to Romania instead of the west, and he came back in a few years), this is the life of a man.

Anyhow, I think a lot of him but I'm just one in a crowd, you know?

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 at 06:35:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 0)
From that little read-up I have done, his history included:

  • Lukács was deputy education people's commissioners in the Hungarian Soviet at the end of WWI. However, he also participated in the Red Terror. While right-wingers usually viewed the Red Terror as one against political opponents, its main focus was peasants - who resisted being drafted for the fight against the invading Romanian (and Czechoslovak) troops, or did not fight with enough commitment; and this treatment of the peasantry proved fatal for the Hungarian Soviet. Lukács's personal part in this was ordering a decimation shooting of 8 recruits.

  • I checked, History and Class Consciousness is from 1923. That's from the turbulent years when he was in a break-away faction of the Hungarian communists, albeit just one that learnt something from the fall of the Hungarian Soviet and recommended a workers-peasants democracy rather than proletarian dictatorship. He ended up being branded a right-wing revisionist.

  • Lukács was later re-taken, and lived in Moscow, but then as you say, he was purged (exiled to Tashkent).

  • However, upon return to Hungary, Lukács participated in Hungary's Stalinisation in the arts, in the blacklisting of authors and philosophers. Then, he was again branded a right-wing revisionist for his democracy concept - he recanted publicly.

  • Lukács was a critic of Nagy, but then joined him as education minister in the 1956 revolution government.

  • Lukács, along with Nagy, fled to the Yugoslavian embassy, from where they were lured outside with a trick, to be arrested and taken to Romania by the Soviets (so no, he did not go and stay there on his own). He was released on the condition that he shuts up ("inner emigration"), and in 1957-1967, he only published in the West.

  • In 1967, Lukács made his compromise with the Kádár regime. While he legitimised the system he rejected nine years earlier, he still wanted to reform from the inside, continued to publish in the West, and he got enough autonomy to teach a lot of bright pupils.

  • All of Lukács's bright pupils in the Budapest School became regime critics in one way or another (many, like János Kis, became strict liberals, others, like Ágnes Heller, drifted to postmodernism, and still others, like István Mészáros, retained Marxism even in exile).

All in all, a man with convictions, but also with big failings, even if he apparently got to learn from all of those. (BTW, if Marek is around, I wonder what's his take on Lukács -- I'm guessing rather negative, but still...)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Feb 5th, 2009 at 06:09:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 1)
I know that much about both that they have been thrown around a lot by the storm of the 20th century, both in life and ideology, so I would probably not grant "wise"

I thought to put this more bluntly: the way I see it, in the mess of the 20th century, wisdom was a luxury one has in the comfort of one's four walls. If one ventured outside, not many choices were open -- one could get dirty, get compromised, or be a hero and get killed or not achieve much in the big picture.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Feb 5th, 2009 at 06:19:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 1)
So your list is on wise people who ventured out, and kept wise, so finished dead...

TRue, a frequent fate of wise men. Other just disappear or start to drink...

"If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none." (Fahrenheit 451)

by pereulok on Thu Feb 5th, 2009 at 06:45:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 0)
N-n-n-o, in my book, venturing out and dying is usually a sign of failure, and as such unwise. (It can still be heroic, it can still save some people, but that's another thing.) My view is that there was no room for real wisdom in public in hard times.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Feb 5th, 2009 at 07:47:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 0)
DoDo:
I thought to put this more bluntly: the way I see it, in the mess of the 20th century, wisdom was a luxury one has in the comfort of one's four walls.

wow, that really hit a nerve, dodo.

i see it a bit like being partisans during the nazi occupation invasion of the zombie souls-snatchers!

with words instead of guns, and no desire for glory other than the freedom to think, speak and act freely from the heart.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Feb 5th, 2009 at 06:47:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 1)
Ah, I think the German list can be long even so: with all the opportunities to show wisdom just in opposition to the Nazi madness.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 at 01:27:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (4.00 / 2)
It's depressing that while I can think of some UK journalists who might qualify, intellectuals are harder to find.

1. Mary Midgley - Philosopher
2. Terry Pratchett - 'Comedy' writer
3. Arthur C. Clarke - Needs no introduction
4. George Monbiot - Journalist

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Feb 3rd, 2009 at 09:09:50 PM EST
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (4.00 / 2)
Five Danes? That's hard. I can think of three right now, though I'm sure there are more

Niels Bohr - should need no introduction

Anker Jørgensen - the last social democratic prime minister in Denmark

Jens Jensen - syndicalist, co-author of Septemberforliget, the Danish labour market "constitution." Septemberforliget was actually signed in 1899, but it is so significant to the development of the Danish political economy in the 20th century that I don't think it should be disqualified just because it's four months too early

There are many others who have made great contributions to humanity - Danish pharmacists independently discovered penicillin during the War (and kept the discovery out of the Wehrmacht's hands too...). But I don't know if that qualifies as wise, precisely.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 at 06:29:08 AM EST
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 0)
actually signed in 1899, but it is so significant to the development of the Danish political economy in the 20th century that I don't think it should be disqualified just because it's four months too early

You mean, 16 months early :-)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 at 06:47:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 1)
Details, details :-P

The new millennium was in 2000, according to the advertisements in Denmark. Didn't you get that memo?

What? You mean that events don't occur based on when shops start (ab)using them in their advertising?

Damn, I've been celebrating Christmas two months early for a while, then...

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 at 07:58:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (4.00 / 2)
Well, there´s too historical delimitations of XXth Century:

  1. The long Century, from 1970 more or less (1971 Paris Commune, and other contemporary events... in Spain the data would be 1898, but we are always late, or at least were late in XVII-XX centuries) to 11-S-2001

  2. The short Century, from First World War(1914-16) to Oil Crisis (1973)

I suppose you can mix beginnings and endings, and there´s four options... Before 2001 they ususally ended XX Century in 1989, but know they consider there´s like some buffer years (1989-2001). That´s logical, it´s not an event but many events together taht change cycles, the beginning of XIX century has also buffer years (from American Revolution until the end of Napoleon wars).

So your wise man could be historically accepted :)

"If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none." (Fahrenheit 451)

by pereulok on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 at 08:11:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 0)
pereulok:
from 1970 more or less (1971 Paris Commune
1870, 1871, clearly.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 at 09:29:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 1)
Oh, so you contrast marketing's erroneous sense of the delimitations of a century with a whole array of historians' erroneous sense... I call in the astronomer inquisition :-)

BTW, minor spelling point: while Spanish (and French and Italian and Hungarian) denote centuries with Roman numerals, English (and German and Dutch) switched to Arabic numerals.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 at 12:58:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 0)
A comment more focused on those historical concepts.

  1. Never heard of the long 20th century before -- the concept seems absent in German and Hungarian, while the long 19th century (French Revolution - WWI) is present.

  2. Never heard of a short 20th century until the first oil crisis, either. Methinks with the second and third crises, and the low oil price late eighties and late nineties in-between, it is outdated anyway. 1989 or 1991 is alright - the end of the Cold War is significant even in retrospect.

As for 9/11, I'd consider that a neocon concept, overvaluing a single event (and the so-called War on Terror that followed).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 at 01:07:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 1)
The short 20th Century concept was created long ago, related to First World War. The old world woyld have lasted until 1914-1916, being First World War the firts mass war, with civilian bombings and a capability of doing mass harm (tanks vs. horses, to simplify). And 1917 Russian Revolution would stress that beginning, from the point of view of mass politics. By the way, 1910s-1920s is also the years where democratic vote (to men) is generally granted all over Europe.

So I suppose that when the oil crisis came up historian where all happy to "close" short 20th Century and make it even shorter :) Because, from an analytical point of view, if you choose First World War plus political events fostered by it to start ir, you should choose also a war or a significative international political event to close it. Such as 1989-1991 (in Europe). Or 11-S-2001... that I agree, is a marketing figure, but then you could close it with Irak wars (first or second, it could be discussed).

But you can open a short 20th century with 1929 crack and close it with oil crisis, maybe... (I'm not so confortable on economic history to defend this).

But I do believe in buffer periods, so I myself would open the Century in 1914-1929 and close it in 1989-2001.

History is a tale, in any case... But how we tell the tale tells a lot (ttttt) on who we are... and have implications on what we do also...

"If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none." (Fahrenheit 451)

by pereulok on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 at 01:42:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 1)
1910s-1920s is also the years where democratic vote (to men) is generally granted all over Europe.

In Spain? In much of Europe, the post-WWI period was when the democratic vote was made univewrsal, including female vote. (BTW, from the above, it's apparent that even the Short 20th Century concept is more a European than global concept.)

So I suppose that when the oil crisis came up historian where all happy to "close" short 20th Century and make it even shorter :)

Which historians? Because, again, this is the first time I read of such a delineation. Is this a common concept among Spanish historians?

if you choose First World War plus political events fostered by it to start ir, you should choose also a war or a significative international political event to close it.

I don't see why. It's not the nature of the starting and end point that counts, but some qualitative differences between the time in-between and the times before and after. For example, one could use the narrative that WWI spawned 'totalitarian' states and ideologies - the last major ones of which were over without a war. (Well, yes, only if we discount China because of its turbo-capitalist turn with Deng's and Zemin's reforms.)

But I do believe in buffer periods, so I myself would open the Century in 1914-1929 and close it in 1989-2001.

What's special about 2001? Why not 2005, the first major EU expansion Eastwards? Or, maybe we should wait until the accession of all former Yugoslav republics, THEN the consequences of WWI are really over?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 at 01:56:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 1)
From Wikipedia: The short twentieth century, defined by Eric Hobsbawm, a British Marxist historian and author, refers to the period between the years 1914 and 1991. That period begins with the beginning of World War I, and ends with the fall of the Soviet Union. These events represented such significant changes in world history as to redefine the era. The term is analogous to the long 19th century, also coined by Hobsbawm, denoting the period 1789 to 1914.

You are right in one thing: Marxist historians, and this one in special (in Spanish be make a difference between "marxiano" and "marxista" to express that it's Marxist as a trend in Political Science, not as an ideology, I don't know how to make that difference in English) have been very influencial in Spain. At least in the years I studied, where, in facti, i lacked proper information on some very influencial neoliberal intellectuals. So there has been may other discussions on dates and momentos to "open" and "close" historical cycles.

What I meant is that the actual year is symbolic. If you believe in historical cycles the turning points last some years, being different moments of importance. If you focus (symbolically) in one or other moment -an economic crisis, a war...- it tells a lot on your focal point of interest. An history distorts which the point of view. As Migeru would say, I am too much of a relativist, you can accuse me of that and you'll have all the reason.

P.S. The 2001 is the symbolic date selected by international relations experts as the point when the powers, superpowers (halfpowers) finally put into motion more or less how they want to act in internatinal relations after the 1991 URRS Fall (with some "trials" in the middles. That is, they showed thir cards. I don't agree so much on this view, but that's the origin of selecting that date, related to "US the only superpower" theories, "China will be the next power theories" and so on.

"If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none." (Fahrenheit 451)

by pereulok on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 at 02:10:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 1)
On the last, could you give a link? On the first, that's indeed a short 20th century definition I am familiar with, but I asked about the definition you cited with 1973/Oil Shock as the endpoint.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 at 02:59:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 1)
I´m quite shy about this, because I think I won´t be able to give you sound references... I have international relations theory too mixed in my mind and Google didn´t help me to find the root of it all. But I´ll try to write sth down, although it mught have many inaccuracies...

About 1914-1973 Century. Well, this is a period that has been considered in international economics and international relations (specially security studies). I´m sure you know Kondratieff theories on economic cycles. This framework had a grat influence on international relations theory (that started as a study detached from politics/economics/history in very recent times, maybe not before 1950s). So the 1914-1973 cycle is considered for some a economic cycle (the oil century) and for others (often the same) a power cycle (1914 is the end of UK power -counteracted by Germany- and the beginning of the US -counteracted by URSS- century). I couldn´t find the reference of the first person proposing this, I´m afraid is part of background degree (with no names) education, so I assume I can be well mistaken in the real theory -let´s say I know the theory as it´s told to "kids")

However, as the last 30 years of the century unfolded, discussions became on the meaning of 1973: was it THE moment, the first main event of a change trend developing in the past 30 years, both in economic international relations and power international relations? Or just a previous? Or not such a change at all?

This discussion was (is) very political [the international relations ¨science¨ lack, from my point of view, still of enough apolitical analysis, is very ideological.. but that´s I suppose a personal view that can be discussed by people who DO know about the matter). Well, as I was saying, it was a very political debate, related with all the intellectuals defending the "new world order" (beginning by Kissinger and continuing with other less controvertive people). The question took a new impulse (theoreticaly AND politically) after 2001. So that´s basically discussion on power balance, with two general" views: that US would become the only superpower, or that US will be substituted by other focal power (Asia...). I´m not interested in this discussion from a scientific point of view and lack knowledge to provide; it is very influential in designing strategies, though, and is used in discourses a lot...

Some names that have writen on change and cycles from international relations point of view (but I´m afraid aI´m not the roight person to give you THE only and definitive name):

Charles Doran. Power Cycle Theory.

On Long Cycle Theory in International relations: George Modelski.

By the way, I found a VERY interesting paper on approaching change in social sciences...

K.J. Holsti (1998): Problem of Change in International Relations Theory.

http://www.iir.ubc.ca/site_template/workingpapers/webwp26.pdf

A quick overview on International Relations Theories, in Wiki as always. You´ll see it´s all very vague andphilosophical, with mathmatical pretensions (well, that´s my point of view on this part of social sciences... so far)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_relations_theory

"If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none." (Fahrenheit 451)

by pereulok on Thu Feb 5th, 2009 at 06:43:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 0)
I find that Hobsbawm subdivided his short 20th century into an Age of Catastrophe, a Golden Age, and a Landslide; of these, the Golden Age lasted 1947-1973. Methinks the use of the 1973 Oil Crisis to delimit that period, especially when considering the US's global role as you emphasize above, makes sense.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Feb 5th, 2009 at 07:23:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 0)
PS2. You are right about voting rights, I made a complete mistake. it was the time, however, where mass political parties became relevant.

"If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none." (Fahrenheit 451)
by pereulok on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 at 02:28:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (4.00 / 2)
I'd replace Kolakowski with Czeslaw Milosz. Also, this list is completely focused on the postwar period. Maybe Tadeusz 'Boy' Zelinski, or Antoni Slonimski?
by MarekNYC on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 at 02:28:25 PM EST
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (4.00 / 4)
If I'm to stick strictly to the OED on "wise" I would certainly include Antonio Gramsci, Norberto Bobbio, Hannah Arendt, Isaiah Berlin. Also Piero Calamandrei, Italo Calvino and Gaetano Salvemini.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 at 05:21:07 PM EST
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (4.00 / 2)
Are we being overly generous?  I don't see how the population could possibly have this many "wise" (wo)men in a single century. Lots of intelligent/creative ones, but truly wise? How many wise (wo)men does it take to run a planet well? Unless, of course, most of the wise (wo)men are concentrated in the wrong vocations! Maybe running a planet isn't for wise (wo) men.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears
by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 at 06:07:55 PM EST
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 0)
PS: Interesting diary and responses. Not knocking it at all.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears
by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Wed Feb 4th, 2009 at 06:09:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 0)
Two observations: I don't see many women on the lists; and I don't think the people who run things are selected on their wisdom.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 5th, 2009 at 01:56:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 1)
You now that Spanish say: behind a great man there is always a great women.

It´s logical to have less to come up into our minds, as not so many women as men, let´s say, "thought publicly". But there is definitely some that would merit a discussion... I don´t want to force one into may Spanish list, however, just for a matter of genre. It was a braimstorming list, and no women brainstormed me :) I have some French, Russian and US names in my mind, but I should have a thought...

We could force it doing lists of 5 wise women (all over the world)... Like Olympic games, separating  genres...

What I like on the word wise is that each one of us thought in a different way when trying to find wise people...

"If you don't want a man unhappy politically, don't give him two sides to a question to worry him; give him one. Better yet, give him none." (Fahrenheit 451)

by pereulok on Thu Feb 5th, 2009 at 06:13:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 0)
You now that Spanish say: behind a great man there is always a great women.

It aint' (just) Spanish:



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Feb 5th, 2009 at 06:21:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century (none / 0)
I don't see many women on the lists

Well, I would have put in Astrid Lindgren on my list, but she's Swedish...

I guess you could include some of the woman activists from the suffrage movement. But I don't know if they were any wiser than other political activists through the ages.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Feb 5th, 2009 at 04:58:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My national wise (wo)men of the 20th Century | 50 comments (50 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)


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