Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.

Friday Open Thread

by afew Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 09:57:55 AM EST

Open for your news and views


Display:
WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!

[Drew's WHEEEEE™ Technology]

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 10:06:55 AM EST
Weeee wheeee

or - don't take the piss....

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 10:16:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You seem to be a "sensible" sort by my standards.  Do you ever find my comments/questions/postings "in bad taste"?

Be honest.  Don't spare my feelings.  Give me hell if you wish.  I'm a big boy; I can take it.

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 10:46:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, you do push the envelope a bit. But then I just think "oh it's Twank, he don't mean nothing, so treat it as if it was a normal thing". If it was someone else who is normally more quiet in their conversation I'd assume something bad, but with you the volume's always on "11", so it's just your normal.

I was surprised at Mig giving you a 2 as well. That was just your normal.

And don't feel too bad, I upset people here as well. I'm considered "overly aggressive", which could be disappointing except people (seem to) like me when they meet me, so I guess I'm just a bit crap online. So, from one crap online person to another, don't worry too much. You're just vocalising t too much, this is a written medium and words don't mean the same without the hand waving and the smiley stuff. It takes time to learn a different way.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 11:42:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Let's distinguish between volume (CAPITALS, use of !!!!) and content.  There's pushing the envelope with THE USE OF CAPITALS and !!!! and there's posting things like the one that got my recent 2 rating.  I didn't get the 2 for style but for content.  I use my CAPS just to emphasize the crux of my point.  !!!! is for volume/outrage etc.

Interesting that you're considered "overly aggressive".  I don't see it.

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:09:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why do you say you are "considered 'overly aggressive'"?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:15:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We've had this conversation offline so I'm curious as to why you're re-asking this publicly.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:29:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If it's offline and can't be public, why did you bring it up?

As you say it, you make it sound like there's a general appraisal of you as an "overly aggressive" person, but there isn't any such general appraisal. Which is what I said to you offline.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:38:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, as I said before, some people I've met IRL have said they didn't expect to like me due to the "forcefulness" of my online persona. Whilst  never intended to imply that meant everybody felt I was aggressive, it suggests a general skewing of the impression I create in that direction.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:56:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The only impression I have of you is that you are VERY intelligent and well informed.  How Dare You ! :)

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:59:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, that is clearer. :-)
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 01:08:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've always thought of you in a old white boiler suit covered in magic marker gestural strokes, pottering about a large ramshackle house muttering truffle arcanae, with 15 paint-bespotted cats scooting out of any room you enter, as you make for the open window to shout pithiness in a very loud voice at anyone happening down the street. Some cross over to the other side.

Other people may see you differently...

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:00:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That was a serious answer.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:01:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you realize HOW MANY TIMES I'm going to have to re-read your posting in order to get the whole gestalt of it?

You have an OVER ACTIVE BRAIN, IMHO!

I like it, but still.  It makes me work.

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:13:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You have to get the gestalt? You mean you have another one?

(Apart from the fact that all the cats are called Megan).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:31:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Another one ... what?  It just takes my brain a long time to get the full picture generated by Sven's words.
What's that old saying pertaining to Govt. workers, "I'm slow but I do poor work".

And nope, only one cat, now named Truffles (of all things), and possibly morphing into another species, given her current size.  Glad I took her to the Vet a year ago to verify she was spayed or I would be concerned about a little of kittens.

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:37:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Another gestalt. And you see, you have one. Not with fifteen cats but an expanding Truffles.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:41:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Details, details...


You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:42:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's where the devil lives, as we all know...
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 01:13:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
All the more reason to not go there...

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 01:46:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Incidentally, this is a situation where the unemployment figures are telling us something useful: the situation is getting a lot worse, quickly.

They still don't tell us how many people who are willing to work can't get them, but that's not what they do.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:01:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I noticed there was a big rush of job ads in the first 3 weeks after the new year, but now it's tailing off. It looks pretty grim out there.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:06:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Titanic, it is a - sinking.  What do the life boats look like, and where do people go in them?

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:15:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey, 32% of the people on the Titanic survived. Don't be so glum.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:17:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Seriously.

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:19:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Including Kate Winslet. She survived too.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:33:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That was just a rounded-up media approximation.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 01:12:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but proportionately the english did badly while the americans did best of all. So I'm not optimistic.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:36:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Who made the movie?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:42:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The same guy who made Arnold Schwarzenegger governor?

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (m<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 01:19:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But then, the great plague, hundred years war and the following century only managed to kill off half the European population.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sat Feb 7th, 2009 at 07:04:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
At this rate, US employment is back to the Bush Presidency Year Zero in another four months.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 02:31:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, yes, the MoM moving average of jobless recovery (i.e. zero payroll growth) since the first stimulating cash injection, 2003.

<blockquote[I]it shows the economy is in a nose dive. But stocks are rallying today on the expectations that the bad numbers will insure that the Senate will pass the stimulus, and that Turbo Tim will announce a big giveaway for the banks next week.</blockquote>

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 03:10:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's a neat trick to embargo stats longer than one quarter.

UK employment rate a/o Oct 2008 was 58.9%, all aged > 16.

How that figure obscures 41% unemployment while headlining instead 6.1  MoM rate of unemployment, I don't understand. The notes suggest to me a proportion of active part-time employed (US equiv. fudge factors U4,U5) ~16.8% to obtain plausible report of 74.2 employment.

The employment rate for people of working age was 74.2 per cent for the three months to November 2008...

The inactivity rate for people of working age was 20.8 per cent for the three months to November 2008, down 0.1 over the previous quarter and down 0.2 over the year. The number of economically inactive people of working age fell by 30,000 over the quarter and by 38,000 over the year to reach 7.86 million. ...

There were 530,000 job vacancies in the three months to December 2008, down 69,000 over the previous quarter and down 153,000 over the year. This is the lowest figure since comparable records began in 2001.

Counting job vacancies is a fairly new BLS activity, too. JOLTS, which caused me no end of amusement during Q4 of the election season -- Mr Obama's speeches were littered with "jolts" to the economy.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 03:00:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
41% unemployment?? What are you talking about?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 03:36:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
100 - 58.9 = 41.1
by det on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 04:45:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the difference is all aged > 16 for the employment rate of 58.9%, and for people of working age (16-59/64 in the UK) for the 74.2%.

Since the base includes all retired people, the first one is not particularly informative.

On employment stats, see:

Soundbite Statistics

Where the jobless go...

How the jobs are counted...

What the jobful get...

And further posts referenced within them.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 04:46:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
oh snap. US Nonfarm unadjusted U6 is 15.4% (13.9% seasonally adjusted). The MoM has climbed way faster than I expect, faster than historical. That is whack. 4M jobs "saved or created" over 24mo will not flatter Mr Hoover Obama in the long run. No, suh. I hope the Volcker Vikings got a Plan C.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 08:11:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I got one but, trust me, you folks don't want to hear it.

Step 1: Identify and locate ALL wealthy Repubs in the US.

Step 2:

See where I'm going with this?

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Sat Feb 7th, 2009 at 06:33:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Heavy snow in the UK everywhere except here, east of london where it's just cold rain. Hows it where you are ?

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:04:04 PM EST
Light rain and I have to walk to the Sac State campus in a little while for tutoring.  Hope it will let up.

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:16:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sunny but cold. By cunningly spending a few days in Paris we managed to avoid almost all the bad weather this week.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:19:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well outside my Back door there's a solid layer of about 10" however we had a beautiful red sunset, and no more is expected for several days

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:51:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Roads are awash in melted slush - which isn't draining, and is going to freeze solid tonight.

I'm not going anywhere until Monday - except downstairs to stoke the fire.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 01:11:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It snowed/sleeted this morning and then rained.  Then we finished up with a gloriously sunny afternoon. According to the weather forecast on my mac dashboard, we expect sun tomorrow and more snow on Sunday.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 01:16:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The snow just won't arrive here. In fact, in Budapest it was like springtime, with 13°C(!) in the afternoon. (Back home further North, it's damp clouds and temperatures lower by 5 degrees throughout the day -- with no front lines anywhere near, such a gradient is some oddity.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 01:40:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Some snow expected around Paris tomorrow morning, once you guys in the UK are done with it...
by Bernard (bernard) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 03:14:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sunny and 67/19.4 (F/C) here in the wonderful Land of Enchantment©.

Not good.  

We've had virtually no snow this winter meaning the snow pack is nowhere near what we'll need come the summer.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 06:41:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
New Mexico is very similar to Colorado Springs, but we're about 5 degrees C cooler than you. A bit windy today, but not at all bad for the middle of February.
by asdf on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 08:19:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Proselytizing | Independent | 6 Feb 2009

ony Blair gave an extraordinary speech about the global importance of religion yesterday, telling an audience which included the newly-inaugurated President, Barack Obama, that faith should be restored "to its rightful place, as the guide to our world and its future." ...

Mr Blair also delivered a homily about faith and religion, even telling the assembled political leaders of his first spiritual awakening, when he was 10 years old. "That day, my father - at the young age of 40 - had suffered a serious stroke," he told the audience. "His life hung in the balance." He described being sent to school where his teacher knelt and prayed with him.

"Now my father was a militant atheist," Mr Blair said. "Before we prayed, I thought I should confess this. 'I'm afraid my father doesn't believe in God,' I said. 'That doesn't matter,' my teacher replied. 'God believes in him. He loves him without demanding or needing love in return.'"

Mr Blair's homily went down like milk and honey. Americans proudly wear their faith on their sleeves and Washington is a city where politicians and policy-makers are often found at early morning prayer meetings. And Mr Blair may be on to a good thing with Mr Obama, who has embraced the religious community more than any recent Democratic leader. The one Bush programme he is holding on to is his "faith-based" initiative now renamed as "faith and neighborhood partnerships.'



Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:17:33 PM EST
Lucky I had a light lunch.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:18:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
True, less mess to clean up.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:28:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's right.  Tell the starving homeless people to pray to their imaginary super-friend.  What ever you do, DON'T TAKE YOUR RAGE OUT ON THE WEALTHY THAT CAUSED THIS STINKER!  Oh no, not that.  Just go on being hungry till you drop dead.

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:23:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I expect God loves the Palestinians in Gaza too. The Quartet envoy would know.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:26:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've not been convinced since I found out that churches and mosques have Lightning conductors.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:52:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Proves YHVH can protect you from Zeus?...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 01:43:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well not without the lightning conductor.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 02:25:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Lord Helps Those Who Help Themselves...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 02:26:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So we all turn into a bunch of muggers ??!  What ?

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Sat Feb 7th, 2009 at 06:35:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
that is really sickly. I really don't care what people of faith bleieve, I don't want them to legislate to impose their religion on me. And right now they don't seem to be able to stop themselves.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:26:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... faith should be restored "to its rightful place, as the guide to our world and its future." ...

OLD TYME RELIGION

(Tune: Give Me That Old Time Religion)

REFRAIN:  after each verse (if you can stand it!)
GIVE ME THAT OLD TIME RELIGION,
GIVE ME THAT OLD TIME RELIGION,
GIVE ME THAT OLD TIME RELIGION,
THAT'S GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME!

We shall worship with the Druids
Drinking strange fermented fluids
RUNNING NAKED THROUGH THE WOO-OODS,...
and that's good enough for me.

Let us go and worship Hermes;
Got a staff that crawls with wormies
That could knock out all the germies,
He's good enough for me.

We will pray to Aphrodite
Even tho' she's rather wild and flighty
But she'll meet us in her nightie,
And that's good enough for me.

Let us gather in our saunas
When The Spirit comes upon us
To perform the rites of faunas,
That's good enough for me.

Oh, Old Odin we will follow
And in fighting we will wallow
"Til we wind up in Valhallooooo,
And that's good enough for me.

We went off to worship Venus.
And by gosh you should have seen us!
Now the clinic has to screen us.
But, she's good enough for me.


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 06:50:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was just reading the Guardian food critic's reaction to the foreign food nonsense in Italy and someone made an intersting point I'd like to expand upon.

Itallian cuisine is, without doubt, the best in the world and they have a perfect right to be jealous of the standards by which it is cooked abroad.

However, they are crap at breakfast so I would recommend someone opening up a greasy spoon cafe in Piazza San Marco..... or the vatican.

It doesn't matter how adventurous you are in your eating, do people get conservative about breakfast ? I know that I'm never so british abroad as when it comes to breakfast. I'll try anything abroad, but for breakfast I'll take a full english fry up or muesli with milk every time. and make sure that's english breakfast tea and not some german factory floor sweepings excuse for "tea" either.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:51:48 PM EST
I tend to find that breakfasts outside the UK are too heavy on the wheat for me.  Eggs make me happy though. And fruit.
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:54:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Funny thing about tea. The local Carrefour has been doing a British products  section for a few years now. There's all kinds of brands in there that baby boomers are supposed to find irresistible because they were impressed on their brains in that great formative period of the fifties and sixties blah blah, (there's Marmite of course), and so on.

Some months ago they started doing popular English teas like PG Tips and Typhoo. Except, if you looked carefully, they were packed for the French market. But they put two kinds of Typhoo in there: one that was intended for the hapless French, the other was a direct British import. So I get that one, and it is in fact regular English, unlike the stuff packed for the French market, which is rubbish.

I've never seen any British people in front of that section. But the other day, two weeks after a fill-up with a healthy stock of each kind of tea, the fake PG Tips and Typhoo had hardly budged, while the real Typhoo... Only one packet left, that I snaffled. There be lurking Brits looking after their breakfasts, aaarrrr.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 01:36:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Question. (To anyone.)

What warm drinks do hotels you visit usually serve? Just coffee and tea, or hot chocolate/cacao (and perhaps warm milk), too?

Thing is: I don't like tea (any sort), the after-effects of coffee (the taste of which I like when it's black with sugar but no milk) are headache, I like hot milk only when I caught cold; so if I wish something warm, I drink hot chocolate/cacao. Which would be normal here, and if I remember right, also during former stays in Germany and France/Brittany. But last year, I got strage looks for asking for it in the Czech Republic.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 01:53:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Countries that don't serve hot chocolate are not countries you want to visit anyway.  In fact, I call for a boycott!

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 02:03:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Chocolate is normal in the UK too. Tho' I don't check for it as I never drink it except last thing at night.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 02:04:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You may be able to get fruit/herbal teas.  Is that included in the teas you don't like?  You could take your own hot chocolate sachets with you and just ask for hot milk!
by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 02:11:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is that included in the teas you don't like?

Yes... only drink 'em when I'm sick.

You could take your own hot chocolate sachets with you and just ask for hot milk!

Good idea for the future -- but last year, (1) I didn't expect cocoa won't be on offer, (2) after receiving those strange looks, I did get hot chocolate prepared extra. (As for the strange looks, I wonder if they considered it a luxury item, an evening drink, or perhaps a childrens' or womens' drink - or were 'just' offended of being asked something extra.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 02:25:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What type of places were you in?  I am trying to think of a place that would not have both milk and chocolate on hand.  

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 02:41:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They had it "on hand", but not on the menu and out on the self-service tables. (And these were no luxury hotels - nothing as classy as the place we had the meetup at in Prague -, but no no-frills cheap lodging either: IIRC all hotels I stayed in had three stars.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 02:55:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hotels without hot chocolate on the menu get 3 stars?  Madness!  :)

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 06:15:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You tell me... and it wasn't like the variety in the food part was lacking.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 06:36:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
cacao

Cocoa... (Was it Anglo-Saxons who first confused cacao and coconut, or did English import this mis-spelling?)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 02:14:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Cocoa is a corrupt form of cacao, according to the Oxford Concise Dictionary.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 04:59:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is what I referred to:

cocoa - definition of cocoa by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

[Alteration (influenced by coco, coconut palm) of cacao.]


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 05:12:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Wanting to answer this is the kind of question that got me trouble before. Well, I digressed (e.g.) for several hours to investigate a semantic confusion of Ares/ram with "bullshit"/RIM-RAM. How ideas inadvertantly present interests me.

taurus -i (Latin) [a bull]
bos- (Latin) [a cow]
bov- (Greek) βοῦς, Βοῦν [bullock, bull, ox]
io- (Greek) Ινώ [cow]; Ἰώ (Greek) [moon]

::
ca·ca·o (k-kou, -k)


An evergreen tropical American tree (L. Theobroma cacao); ETYMOLOGY: Spanish, from Nahuatl cacahuatl

::
co·coa (k-k)
is obviously an English invention, or typical English pretension to Gallic nuance, rather than a misspelling. The two words bear no phonetic resemblance -- although English vocalization of /o/ varies despite primary school "rules."

For example: col·umn (klm) ,co·lum·nar (k-lmnr), coal (kl), Col·um (klm), Col·trane (kltrn), Col·lin (klln), Col·lin (kln)

source

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 06:05:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not generally - as far as possible we eat as local.

We've eaten and enjoyed traditional Japanese breakfasts. +4 for the fresh tofu and sashimi. -4 for the raw egg ... mind you I'm pretty sure the Japanese eat muesli these days. Curry for breakfast (India) is fun too.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 01:55:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh yea on curry for breakfast, but only if it's the leftovers from the night before. Eating a hot curry for breakfast is the best hangover cure.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 02:03:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nope. Actually it was curried pastries of some sort. I forget the details off the top of my head. And hard boiled eggs. Bizarre mish-mash of English/Indian components.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 02:10:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Coffee is enough to get me out the door.  Coffee and something baked is fine.  But I need a shot of protein before noon or I'll keel over.  Too much sweets & carbs in the morning and my blood sugar plummets and I literally do keel over.

Of course, if it will be a long day of strenuous activity (physically or mentally), or I know I won't have a chance to have lunch, I will have to have something more substantial than coffee and bread.  An omelette, or, and this is probably too "American" but I'm telling you, it's a miracle food, peanut butter and a banana on whole grain bread.  

I'm less flexible about my coffee options than my food options.  But I suspect that is much more of a problem in America.  It is a serious problem, in fact.  Should be addressed right after the stimulus package is settled.

BTW, is breakfast for dinner catching on in Europe?  Americans are mad about it!


Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.

by poemless on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 02:16:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Breakfast for dinner?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 02:16:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes.

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 02:17:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Define 'breakfast'? And possibly 'dinner'.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 02:17:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Breakfast:  Meal eaten in the morning.  First meal of the day.
Dinner:  Meal eaten in the evening/night.  Last meal of the day.

Breakfast for dinner is quite a treat!  There is something taboo about it.  First, well, you are just willy nilly rearranging the Order Of Things.  Second, it's unhealthy.

Breakfast for dinner can be pancakes, eggs, cereal, or whatever you eat for breakfast, but you eat it at night.

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.

by poemless on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 02:20:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hm... as someone who normally eats the same for breakfast and dinner, I must ask: what do you normally eat for dinner?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 02:28:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not pancakes, eggs or cereal...

Last night I had pizza.  The other night I had a proper dinner, by American standards: grilled chicken, roasted asparagus and garlic mashed potatoes.  I don't usually eat that kind of meal.  Usually a bowl of pasta or soup, or what I call a "nosh" which is usually some cheese, cured meat, olives, fruits, nuts, that kind of thing.

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.

by poemless on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 02:36:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So you eat cold (or nothing) for lunch, or have two warm meals a day?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 03:00:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Who said anything about lunch?

I think you are making this more difficult than it is.  

"Breakfast for dinner" is simply eating meals traditionally associated with breakfast, but eating them at night.  It has nothing to do with their temperature.  Any meal can be hot or cold.  

I'd explain further, but I am afraid I am boring everyone.  Which is sad, because breakfast for dinner is supposed to be fun.

Knock yourself out.

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.

by poemless on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 03:19:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Who said anything about lunch?

I did... given the variety of food for breakfast listed in yourWiki link, NOW am I confused about how the evening meal is supposed to be a different category.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 04:22:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, if that Wiki link wasn't helpful, I simply don't know what to say.  Since it is pretty detailed, and even explains the concept of breakfast for dinner!

Today, most Americans and Canadians eat a reduced breakfast most days, but may still enjoy a traditional hearty breakfast on weekends, holidays, and vacations. Having only coffee or skipping breakfast entirely is also common. Eating out for breakfast or brunch is common on weekends and holidays.

Eggs are strongly associated with breakfast, to the extent that many Americans and Canadians consider egg dishes out of place later in the day.

A typical contemporary combination of food for a hearty breakfast consists of eggs (fried or scrambled), one type of meat, and one or two starchy dishes; commonly hash browns and toast. A more basic breakfast combination would be a starchy food (such as toast, pastry, breakfast cereal, oatmeal, pancakes, or waffles) either alone or served with fruit and yogurt. This second option, similar to the Continental breakfasts served in Europe, is especially common in institutional situations where serving hot food is difficult, expensive, or impractical.

Restaurants that serve breakfast typically base their menus around egg dishes and meats such as sausage and bacon. Pancakes and waffles are also popular. An assemblage commonly known as a country breakfast in restaurants consists of eggs or omelette, sausage or bacon, hash browns, sausage gravy, coffee, biscuits or toast with jam or jelly, and fruit juice.

A typical breakfast for those that eat ordinary breakfast as a home meal is instant oatmeal or a cold breakfast cereal with milk. Leftovers from the previous day's meals may also be eaten, such as cold pizza.

A worker's breakfast often consists only of coffee and prepared food purchased on the way to work or brought from home, eaten during the morning commute or at the workplace just before clocking in. Food items that fit this eat-on-the-go strategy include various sweet breakfast breads and pastries, bagels (often with cream cheese), sweetened flavored yogurt cups, smoothies and milkshakes, fresh fruit, granola or "energy" bars, toaster pastries, and fast food. Many fast food restaurants sell breakfast versions of their typical offerings that include eggs and are usually sweeter and less spicy. Examples of such breakfasts-to-go are: egg-filled sandwiches on croissants, biscuits or muffins, and breakfast burritos filled with eggs, cheese and sometimes sausage.

Healthier breakfasts are gaining in popularity in some parts of the country such as California, featuring yogurt, whole-grain cereal, fresh fruit or egg-white omelets.

Coffee is the most common breakfast beverage. In the United States, 65% of coffee drunk during the day is with breakfast.[4]. Also common are tea, milk, hot chocolate, orange juice, and other fruit juices (grapefruit, tomato, etc). Occasionally, caffeinated carbonated beverages may be substituted for the more traditional coffee or tea. Espresso drinks such as cappuccino and latte have become increasingly popular since the 1990s. In Washington State and British Columbia, the cappuccino and latte are the default way of buying coffee for breakfast.

The modern options typical of the U.S.A. and Canada are representative of Western-style breakfasts that have become common worldwide, especially in industrialized nations.

Breakfast is thought as the foods typically eaten during morning hours, that are distinct from other foods even if eaten outside of the morning. In this sense, some serve breakfast for dinner. There are several fast food and casual dining chains in North America that specialize in hearty breakfast-style foods, such as pancakes and country breakfasts, that offer these all day long.[5] Like greasy spoons in the UK, American coffeeshops and diners typically serve breakfast foods all day.




Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 04:36:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Basically, I'm guessing (assuming it means the same to poemless that it means to me), eating breakfastie foods for dinner.  Eggs, pancakes, bacon, etc.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 03:13:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think they are confused about what "breakfastie" entails.  Maybe they are being pedantic and are thinking that if you eat something at night, by definition it cannot be breakfast.  


Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 03:21:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I dunno.  It may actually be a real difference in what we eat for breakfast.  Don't the Brits eat fish?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 03:27:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Only if you can get good kippers. It's so hard these days.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 03:37:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I took some Finns down to the South of Ireland, and in the hotel I promised them a real 'English breakfast'. After a traditional late night of Finnish over-consumption in the bar, amplified by tales of a Killarney seafood restaurant where the gas supplies in the kitchen exploded and blew the restaurant front door out without extinguishing any of the candles on the tables, I ordered kippers for them.

Faces can become green.

I ordered soused mackerel myself, having already taken confidence with the alcoholic chef. It was about the time when the first Beaujolais Nouveaux was ceremoniously brought to Ireland by helicopter and motor bike, in that pointless race for pioneering consumption.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 04:39:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd guess about 1971

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 04:40:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, I mean '81

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 04:51:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think they are confused about what "breakfastie" entails.

At present, I am confused about what "breakfastie", and "dinnerie",  and "lunchie" entails...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 04:25:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's 'cause you're from Eastern Europe.  To you, they're all equal.

Commie. ;)

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 06:01:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Itching for a fight!? ;-)

I am confused about your senses of all three main meals, but FYI, here are the local traditional ones. Actually, that is two versions.

(1) Urban (maybe Budapest only?)/cafeteria workday/rural Sunday:

  • "breakfastie": bread with some meat, cheese, vegetables; bread with something sweet (marmelade, nutella), occasionally cold fish or some prepared salad or some form of eggs with it, warm drink; alternatively joghurt, cereals, green salads, fruits, fruit juice.
  • "lunchie": main meal, warm, can be single-course (some vegetable-dish) or three-course (soup-meaty stuff-dessert).
  • "dinnerie": more or less = "breakfastie", but typically different in size. It depends on family and person which is bigger and contains warm meals more often.

(2) Rural/proletarian resp. service class workday/out-going people's weekend:
  • "breakfastie": like (1)
  • "lunchie": like a shorter breakfast (say just bread, water and a salami or ham) or even nothing at all
  • "dinnerie": main meal, like lunch in (1)


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 06:31:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In Poland you've got Śniadanie - breakfast, basically either bread cheese and coldcuts or eggs and stuff.

Then you've got obiad - dinner, traditionally served early afternoon, though these increasingly an evening meal - the big warm meal of the day.

Kolacja - supper - an evening meal, either cold (bread and stuff) or a light warm meal.

Then there's lunch, pronounced and sometimes, though rarely, written 'lancz' - self explanatory. The traditional Polish term for lunch is 'drugie śniadanie', i.e. 'second breakfast'.

by MarekNYC on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 06:39:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I take this is rural in origin, too. I find that in some regions of Hungary, the system was similar, with the afternoon main meal called "evening-lunch".

Any secondary meals fitting in there in-between?

At school, we had "ten-o'clock snack" (say a milk and a cake) and uzsonna, which, contrary to the word's Slavic origin, denotes an afternoon snack. I'm unsure whether the first s traditional, but the second is, it was a break for peasants.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 06:57:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is something called 'podwieczorek' which as the name indicated came right before the evening. I don't know if it is a peasant thing. Remembering back to childhood summers with the peasant part of my family, it wasn't around - just breakfast, dinner, supper along the traditional lines I outlined above.
by MarekNYC on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 07:02:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"dinnerie": more or less = "breakfastie"

Minus the warm drink - the one major difference, like eggs for you.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 07:02:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now that breakfast burritos have been added to the American menu, there is at least one item that is served at all meals. Potatoes, also, I suppose.
by asdf on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 08:32:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Also known as "Brinner."

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 02:22:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In Germany it's not 'catching on', it's more like, normal. Abendbrot. I think. If I got your meaning correctly. They have dinner for lunch. Dunch. Or something.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 05:15:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Does it not exist in the Netherlands, too? I seem to remember eating a bread dinner with knife & fork there...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 05:18:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Parts of the Netherlands, maybe. Definitely not in Holland ;-) We'll have our warm dinner at 6 PM thankyouverymuch
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 05:22:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It was in Holland, but maybe it was our relative's influence - either from being born in Budapest or from being a development aid agent jetting around.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 05:29:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, another evening, a meat fondue. (Now fondue is something to mess up my sense of "lunchie" and "dinnerie"...) All my family fell in love with the idea (this was back in the early eighties), though we would eat it only for lunch. (Damn, thinking of it, it must have been ten years ago I last ate meat fondue - must buy the accessories somewhere...)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 05:26:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We used to eat breakfast with forks and knifes on Sunday. This would be a bit more European including boiled eggs, croissants, oven breads, cheeses & hams.

Weekdays were for slices with pindakaas & hagelslag (marmelade, honey, liverwurst...). We had good bread, though.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 05:34:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, pindakaas, another thing I first ate then - and funny thing, peanut butter first appeared as importware here just from the Netherlands. However, they ate everything with forks & knives, even slices of bread with pindakaas. (One of the children when grown up once came to Budapest for a few months, and drew laughters everywhere until switching to the use of hand.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 05:48:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We are all told that we need to be able to sit at a table with the Queen. Quite strange how such medieval tales survive.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 06:28:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's really not so different from America, conceptually.  A Sunday or holiday you go all out with a large spread, including eggs, meat, cheese, bread, fruit, whatever.  Weekdays a piece of toast with some jam or something.  

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 06:04:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No - that's not really the same.  Looking at Abendbrot, it resembles very much what I commonly have for dinner (evening meal).  

I didn't anticipate such confusion.  Because of Helen's English breakfast.  Traditional English breakfasts resemble traditional American breakfasts.  Traditional.  Not what everyone has for breakfast everyday.  If an American sits down at 8pm and eats some fried eggs and bacon, or some pancakes, that is Breakfast for Dinner.

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.

by poemless on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 05:49:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You guys eat pancakes for breakfast? That's disgusting!

;-)

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 06:08:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But we eat crepes for dinner!  

Now I will sit back and watch your heads explode...

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.

by poemless on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 06:09:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is a clearly discernible difference between pancakes and crepes. Crepes are a snack you grab underway on the underground, on the stand next to the Asia noodles, whereas pancakes are a dessert or alternatively (with hearty stuff) also a main course for dinner.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 06:14:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We are not allowed to continue this conversation without Izzy and Afew moderating.  Someone's liable to get hurt if we try to sort this out on our own.

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 06:19:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, forgot to flag that. I somehow missed the start of Izzy's(?) pankcake wars, so I always wondered what it was all about (even worse after Drew started to taunt McCain with that) - was this part of it?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 06:38:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not entirely... here you go.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 07:11:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Huh. And even this appears to be a sequel not the first.

Belatedly, I must inform you that of course you have it all wrong: pankcake should be filled with curd cheese and raisins, with powdered sugar on top :-)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 07:31:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Supper - Wikipedia
In Germany as same as in Poland supper is a variety of breads and rolls are baked for this meal. Cold meats, sausages, various sorts of ham, cheese, pickles also honey, tomatoes, and other sliced vegetables are served with the bread.

The confusion arises because the above are more or less also listed as ingredients for American breakfast. If it is only fried eggs, bacon, and pancakes (and, I guess, grits) that matter, then I start to get the picture.

It helps that I remembered that local outlets of American fast food chains have a breakfast sortiment, usually including lots of vegetables but based on eggs, and I used to wonder why they won't sell scrambled eggs later in the day.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 06:09:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not the ingredients.  It's the menu items.  If we broke down everything into groups according to ingredients, you would indeed have a lot of trouble distiguishing between meals!  

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 06:12:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not the ingredients.  It's the menu items.

I meant menu items, that was just bad choice of words on my part.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 06:41:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Agree totally about conservative for breakfast.  Asia is a real chore when it comes to that.

Overanalyzing the situation, it seems to me that American/British breakfasts (no clue what other Euros eat, so won't comment) have a variety of foods that are almost exclusively eaten for breakfast, or if they're not, they're served very differently for breakfast than for lunch or dinner.  Further, I grew up with the notion that it was somehow wrong to eat breakfast foods for lunch or dinner.

On the other hand, a good Japanese breakfast is just like a good Japanese lunch.  Same with China, judging by the breakfast spreads laid out by the low/mid level businessman hotels I stayed at.  The foods they serve aren't bad, really, they just strike me as WRONG for breakfast, on some deep level.

Thailand, however, was wonderful.  The tourist presence has been strong enough, long enough, for good expat restaurants to appear.  Those places did AMAZING breakfasts, better than what I'd usually eat in the US, on the rare occasions that I went out for breakfast.  There's something to be said for a place being a bit touristy.  

by Zwackus on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 05:52:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One of my favorite brunch spots is a Thai place.  

I am not going to explain "brunch."

But I will highlight your comment.

it seems to me that American/British breakfasts (no clue what other Euros eat, so won't comment) have a variety of foods that are almost exclusively eaten for breakfast, or if they're not, they're served very differently for breakfast than for lunch or dinner.  Further, I grew up with the notion that it was somehow wrong to eat breakfast foods for lunch or dinner.

Exactly.


Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.

by poemless on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 05:57:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Italian cuisine is the best in the world?

O man, I'm laughing, hard.

Can think of three that are far away ahead of them by any objective measure...two of which are covered by their silly bans (Chinese and Moroccan).

Sorry, I like Italian food too...when I want comfort food, but high cuisine it is not.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 05:58:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Adding, that I was not even being nationalistic in composing the above...as I took french to be of course obviously above.

But there is a close second in Europe, and it may even be a tie, but it is not Italy, no, not by any stretch of the imagination. It is Spain, and any person can look at the top restaurants in the world and see between Spain and France maybe 40% of the top 100 ore in these countries.

In Italy, not so much.

This doesn't mean I don't like pizza or saltimbocca, though.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 06:06:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why do you conflate "high cuisine" with "best in the world?"

Sometimes, actually usually, simple and rustic is as good as or better than anything tres tres complique...

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.

by poemless on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 06:07:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I take food as art, like any other art, and I respect it. Don't enjoy it often, only had the experience twice in my life in fact.

But, when it is an art, that's when start to call it cuisine. And, the Guardian article uses that word. Which for me has many connotations, usually involving among other things skill in preparation, economy, variation in preparation in terms of treatment of ingredients, in their aging, and their seasoning; above all, the ability to take lesser foods and by the cooks origanility, formation and presentation, turn it into a work of art...that's cuisine.

Taking a lobster, boiling it and giving a mayonnaise...that's not cuisine, but it may cost much more than proper cuisine, which might simply be the ability to take a sauerbraten and present it in aspic with fresh shaved carrots and onions cooked into the same aspic. Or sweetbreads in a light cream sauce with knaedler. Sounds cheap (and it is on the basis of orignial ingredients) but simple it ain't. Present it in a way that makes it as appetizing by view as it is by taste (not obvious, in many cases in cuisine) and there you have it.

By comparison, a pizza is easy.

There's another important element to it, which is service or in french is called "la salle". But this I don't think is the important thing, but it plays a big role in rating these things. Actually proper service always embarrasses me.

All these things being said, when it comes to cuisine, there are benchmarks, and though I don't have but two experiences with this, I remember both of them, and there really is a difference between duck you get at the really good Chinese restaurant in Schaumberg and the one you get cooked in its own blood in Paris.

And, I don't mean this in an elitist way, I can live without having it in future for hte rest of my days, but everyone should have the right once or twice in their lives.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 06:34:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But, when it is an art, that's when start to call it cuisine

No, that's when you start calling it haute cuisine. A cuisine refers to a style of food, generally associated with some culture or the other.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 06:42:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nope, not when you start saying, like the Guardian, the "best" cuisine.

That means you're in proper haute cuisine mode.

I mean, if you think they mean simply hearty, well made and fairly easy to prepare every day food, they're completely wrong anyway, I'd put Irish food ahead on that score in a heartbeat over the Italians, on a couple of grounds. First you eat well on simple low-cost ingredients and second, economy of preparation.

It takes time, for instance, to make your own pasta else you buy it at the store but, slice and halve potatoes, well, you can grow them in your back yard. And I challenge you to find barley in a market in Italy. Hard enough in France but Italy?

There's another thing they don't get here on lamb (people from the Maghreb do, but french don't) and that's mint. But in Italy they don't get it either, and they're banning food senisbilities that aren't their precious italian, so fuck 'em anyway.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 07:01:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, you'd have to specify what metric you were using for "best".

Mind you, I tend to agree that claiming that Italian is best on any metric doesn't make much sense, especially as it's really a collection of regional/ethnic cuisines (as is true of most "National" food cultures).

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 07:06:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I didn't say best, the Guardian did but this is not surprising since, given they're English, they can only re-ify the word Best when it comes to food, being so far off the mark.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 07:12:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Barley is gross.

Though the horses like it.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 07:06:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What a second.

You thicken a blanquette, Irish-style, with barley.

You can't tell it's in there...it's to thicken it up and give it a bit of a nutty flavour at same time.

Seriously, I'm not making this up.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 07:10:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know what they put it in. I still don't like it. And the Irish don't do "blanquette". Sounds dangerously furrin.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 07:16:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Whatever.

Given your countryman's offense in recent weeks to having been invited to rejoin the uk because your government is a corrupt lot of neo-liberal idiots supported by a majority of irish, I wanted in this forum not to use an English name but it's the same in Irish, so as to avoid any untoward association of the Irish with the English they so emulate.

You know how hard I try to not trample on Irish sensibilities these days.

Unfortunately, the name for stew, in Gaelic, is pronounced and spelled a little differently, but it's the same word. It's like Stough or something like that, pronounced stoooooogh.

To be polite, I used blanquette because, you know, Irish stew is really not a stew but a blanquette, but I suppose it's true you would only know that if you were french of irish descent of vice-versa.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 07:39:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Graph porn

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 12:57:54 PM EST
I like the old fashioned kind.  Ooops, poor taste again.  Let the 2's rain down.

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 01:05:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey - is anything new in Europe?  I'm steeped in IL,US politics and am totally out of the loop.  Wait.  That's not even true.  There is this newfangled tv station that shows news from all over the world, and I am addicted to it.  I probably know more about what is going on in Europe than you do.  For example, some babushka's sheep ran in front of a car and she was fined more money than she's ever seen in her life, but then some wealthy Brit bailed her out.  And the windows repair industry in S. Ossetia is booming.  Also, there is a wolf-cam in the Siberian forest, but so far I haven't seen any wolves, just snow.

Here's what's up with me.

I was on tv Sunday!  Ok, it was just a close up of me in the audience.  But it was an amazing day.  The group I am in, Northside DFA, held a forum for all of the Democratic nominees running to replace Rahm Emanuel.  We'd never ever attempted anything on this scale.  We always do candidate forums and endorsement sessions, but never one with 14 candidates in such a high profile local race.  It was a HUGE, huge success.  The day of the event, we had at least 700 people, all of the local tv news stations, all of the major local papers, NPR, etc. covering it.  The moderator was the Washington bureau chief of the Chicago Sun-Times.  She asked NO softball questions.  The very first question she asked was, "in the 600+ pages of the stimulus bill in its current form, identify one specific thing that will effect the 5th district."  Someone said it will help people keep their houses, and she said, "No.  A specific item in the bill that will have a specific use in our community."  Everyone turned white.  LOL.  But it was great.  The person I was most impressed with was one of the lesser known candidates, Jan Donatelli.  She just blew me away.  She used to be a bomber pilot.  She said the first mission she went on made her convinced "there has to be a better way."  She was one of the few candidates who said she would not support increasing military aid to Israel.  She's also a union activist.  Also, she has great hair and is a feisty, well-spoken, woman who clearly has the courage of her convictions and is not just saying what people want to hear.  She blew everyone away.  But most people were already invested in other campaigns.  We have an embarrassment of riches in this race.  

Here's some detailed coverage of the event.
http://www.prairiestateblue.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=4805
http://www.chicagopublicradio.org/Content.aspx?audioID=31854
http://blogs.chicagoreader.com/politics/2009/02/02/alderman-oconnor-fox-or-wuss/
http://publicaffairs2point0.wordpress.com/2009/02/01/live-blogging-il-5-debate/
http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2009/02/rahm_emanuel_may_want_to_recla.html

Everyone was very exhausted/elated afterwards.  We went to my friends', Jim & Lisa's, for a "Souper-bowl party."  As in, no football, but 6 varieties of soup.  And lots of booze and conversation.  We didn't reach a consensus about which candidate to endorse, but the tomato-lemon soup won our vote for the best soup.  :)

Last night we had our official endorsement session.  It was a grueling process, with these very strict voting rules and all, and in the end, we endorsed no one because no one got 75% of the vote.  Tom Geogehan (nerdy guy with an attitude problem whom the grassroots just lust after) and Mike Quigley (he brought the cheesecake to our party, remember?) did well.  

You can read about it here.

The other news is, if you have not heard, Justice Ginsburg has pancreatic cancer.  They accidentally found it when she went in for a routine screening.  I was seriously depressed about that yesterday.  Not only is she the Best. Chief. Justice. Ever.  She's the mother of dear friend of mine.  They seem to be handling everything in stride, but I can't imagine having my family's health issues blasted all over the media.  Anyway, it's very sad.  :(


Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.

by poemless on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 01:30:38 PM EST
I'd heard about that russian woman, I think it was in the indy a couple of days ago.

Soup recipe ? We have a ton of last year's tomatoes in the freezer.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 02:07:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I don't have any recipes.  I didn't make any of them.  

But a quick google brings up this recipe, which sounds like what I had.

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.

by poemless on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 03:44:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Er, rather shocked out of my mind at the lack of response to my post.  What gives?

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 03:56:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We're all shy in the face of TV celebrity.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 04:08:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Pancreatic cancer is 100% fatal, nobody goes into remission from that. I'm sorry for your friend, this will be a tough time for them.

I take it she was liberal, so Obama isn't gonna change the USSC when she resigns. Which is a shame.

As for the primary, it's an interestng time. However it's typical that, from what you say, the best candidate is the one with no chance.


keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 04:21:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, they found it in its VERY early stages, totally by accident.  The reason it has such a high fatality rate is that it normally isn't found in time to be treated.  Still, I am sad.  

And some of the candidates with decent chances are quite good candidates.  Most of them are good candidates.  Except for Charlie wheelan, who is an evil Chicago School guy and must be stopped!!!  Stop him!!

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.

by poemless on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 04:27:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay, well I wish her luck.

Way things are going within the Dems at the moment, the fact that whelan is the bad guy makes him the odds on favourite.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 05:06:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What's this newfangled TV station?
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 05:26:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
http://www.mhznetworks.org/mhzworldview/

Come, my friends, 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
by poemless on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 05:40:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We're on the verge of a constitutional crisis this evening in Italy. Berlusconi is trying to force an unconstitutional law beyond the President of the Republic- actually two laws- but tonight the shit has hit the fan and caked the walls over the Englaro case.

Eluana Englaro has been in an irreversible coma for 18 years. Her father took her case through the Italian Supreme Court which ruled that artificial nutrition should be ceased. The Vatican and the Berlusconi government have gone beyond lawful means to prevent and intimidate the Englaro family and clinics from carrying out the ruling.

The President of the Republic informed the government that any attempt to pass a decree to block the decision is unconstitutional and that he would not co-sign it. Berlusconi's government ignored the President's letter and have gone ahead. The President this afternoon refused to sign the decree. The government has called an emergency reunion this evening to evaluate what actions to take.

I do not consider the Englaro case of particular concern to Berlusconi beyond paying back the Vatican. Berlusconi's intent is to force emergencies onto the state and the civic body for his own ends.

Sit-ins are planned tomorrow but as far as I'm concerned people should take to the streets this evening. Once again Berlusconi is going too far.

Berlusconi remarked this afternoon that Eluana is a living human being. He added that she could have children. Apparently his sexual fantasies have extended to women in vegetative states. Most states have laws against that sort of behavior. Perhaps he would like to send one of his hunk soldiers to perform the job.

After all he recently contended that he would put millions of soldiers on the streets because Italian women are just too attractive for the normal male. Apparently he feels women pop their rocks over men in uniform.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 01:45:43 PM EST
People are converging on Palazzo Chigi where the government is in reunion. Apparently nearly a thousand people with traffic being blocked in the area. Several political leaders accuse the government of engineering a fascist-like attack on the state under the pretext of the Englaro case. I imagine that all the chaos is being created to slip through Berlusconi's far more devastating law against the judiciary branch which was also passed this evening by his government.

The Vatican deplores the tension and insists that a murder is being perpetrated.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 02:13:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The drift to an authoritarian regime...
I shouldn't laugh; similar things could happen here later this year with our own French Berlusconi (who openly predicted increased social unrest).
by Bernard (bernard) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 03:27:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Vatican has expressed delusion for President Napolitano's choice not to sign the government's emergency decree to block a Supreme Court decision.

The government has decided to proceed by proposing a bill in the Senate. The government is seeking to have an emergency session and is confident that they can pass a law within "three days"- not at all unconceivable since the parliament no longer exists. The government has an ample majority in both the Senate and the Chamber of Deputies, a majority that owes its allegiance entirely to being appointed to office by Berlusconi rather than being directly elected.

The extra-European entity, the Vatican, will see their prayers answered.

Crowds opposed to the Berlusconi-Vatican initiatives have gathered in Milan, Turin and Rome this evening. The tam-tam on the internet this evening points to numerous demonstrations in the days to come.

The case has hit most major European news sites- BBC, CNN, El Pais, France 24...  

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 04:06:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
humorous but, is Italy going or already Fascist?  What is the state of Italian democracy?  This doesn't sound good.  Did the US dodge the Bush bullet only to have it arise in Europe?

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Sat Feb 7th, 2009 at 06:44:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Berlusconi has been off-and-on in power for fourteen years.Before that he only corrupted politicians and bribed judges.Anyway it's a long standing problem.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Sat Feb 7th, 2009 at 04:33:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Another super essay | Giroux | Counterpunch

What is even more disturbing is that the sustained neoliberal attack on the social state and its disinvestment in those political, social, and economic spheres vital to the development of healthy and critically informed citizenry have worked quite successfully in tandem with a new and vicious rationality--produced in countless sites, such as the media and higher education--that constructs adults and young people according to the dictates, values, and needs of a market fundamentalism.  All aspects of life are now measured according to the calculations of a philosophy that construes profit making as the essence of democracy and consuming as the only operable form of citizenship.4

Government in this case operates not only within the parameters of a corporate state  but also within the principles of a ruthless market, whose spectacle of cruelty can no longer hide behind its appeal to self-interest, freedom, and least of all democracy.  But simply criticizing the market, the privatization of public goods, the politics of deregulation,  and the commercialization of everyday life, while helpful, is not enough.  Stirring denunciations of what a neoliberal society does to public institutions, identities, and social relations do not go far enough. What is equally necessary is developing a language that moves beyond both the politics of Obama's so-called "post-partisan" notion of hope and a growing cynicism that registers not merely the depth of the current economic and political crisis but also the defeatist assumption that power operates exclusively in the service of domination, tyranny, and violence. ...

Democracy is not simply about people wanting to improve their lives; it is more importantly about their willingness to struggle to protect their right to self-determination and self-government in the interest of the common good.  Under the reign of free market fundamentalism, market relations both expanded their control over public space and increasingly defined people as either consuming subjects or commodities, effectively limiting their opportunity to learn how to develop their full range of intellectual and emotional capacities to be critical citizens.  Sheldon Wolin has rightly argued that if "democracy is about participating in self-government, its first requirement is a supportive culture of complex beliefs, values, and practices to nurture equality, cooperation, and freedom."7

I read  with great interest his piece "Obama's Betrayal of Public Education" right after Arne Duncan's Mukasey Treatment. The lunatic Michelle Rhee who is chancellor of DC public school system is a member of Duncan's cohort --I'll call it the Graduate School of Teach America (see James Taub, NYT 2007)-- set my hair afire after Fenty's election. They read from one textbook.

Also Giroux quotes Zygmunt Bauman. That is very cool.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 02:02:55 PM EST
Cheese and tomato sandwich with Maldon salt - mmmm loverly

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 04:23:42 PM EST
it jus neber ends
see more crazy cat pics

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 04:55:36 PM EST
Ha!

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 09:44:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I didn't realise he was endangered

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Feb 6th, 2009 at 07:33:25 PM EST
At last, we have a picture of DoDo!
Please join us in giving a warm welcome to Dodo, the newest member of the adoption program!



"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Sat Feb 7th, 2009 at 08:08:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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