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Eat your greens or you'll turn out like Japan

by Colman Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 02:30:09 AM EST

We've had a couple of exchanges in comments about economists warnings of the danger of falling into the Japanese trap, wondering if the "lost decade" was so terrible. Paul Krugman seems to be having similar thoughts:

Well, I’m sure I’m not the only person to notice this: Japan doesn’t look so bad these days.

For one thing, the famed sluggishness of Japanese policy — the refusal to face up to banking system losses and pour in the funds needed to recapitalize the system, the refusal to let zombie banks die, the stop-go nature of fiscal policy, with concerns about rising debt warring with concerns about the economy — all of that seems entirely comprehensible now, doesn’t it? Even with the knowledge of what happened to Japan to motivate us, so far we’re following exactly the same path.

And given what the next couple of years are likely to look like, Japan’s lost decade — yes, growth was slow, but there wasn’t mass unemployment or mass suffering — is actually starting to look pretty good. We may or may not be about to face our own lost decade, but the sheer misery millions of Americans will face in the near future probably exceeds anything that happened in Japan during the 90s.

Japan's perceived problem was that GDP growth didn't keep up with the rest of the developed world, especially the US, but it seems that our GDP growth was largely illusory anyway. Measured as a business in liquidation - GDP is stupid measure - Japan was doing badly. Can we work out how it doing as a going concern?


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I know that I was in Japan in 2001, coming from a booming Ireland, and it certainly didn't look like a country with a population in deep distress - obviously there were problems, but there always are.

Japan is in for a bad ride now, as its trading partners' economies disappear, but that's another matter.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 02:32:07 AM EST
Among the differences in the Japanese situation then (and now) and the situation in the US now, is that the US, neither governmentally or corporately or individually has no savings or any real recent history of savings vs Japan's big stash of US treasuries and their individuals huge cash stash.

When the engine is working well, the USians have is a population who will work hard for a middle class life, hard enough for the greedy to scrap a lot of creme off the top. They can multiply their inherent natural resources into a feeling of trust which allows the rest of the world to give them the benefit of the doubt...that they will survive well, that their money guarantee is worth the promise, etc.

What Japan has is a tradition of sacrifice for common goals. There are still some in their working generation who felt the sacrifices that allowed their country to rise out of their WWII ashes in the 70s.

The USians have neither that history or much of anyone around who remembers that history of sacrifice. (Not counting the wandering through recessions every 8-10 years.)

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 02:51:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We won't go the way of Japan for the simple reason that we don't have a culture/psychology of the Japanese.

Example:  From migeru, yesterday:

Why can Americans only be mobilized by the language of war and patriotism?

Things have not gotten that bad for too many people yet.  Stay tuned for the next 18 months.  We ain't Japan.

Hey America.  Your fascist government since Raygun screwed you over.  What are you going to do about it?

(just practicing)

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 08:50:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It seems like Krugman reads his comments...

Turning Japanese - Paul Krugman Blog - NYTimes.com

48. March 2, 2009 4:02 am Link

Maybe you could explain in a future blog post in what sense the Japanese Lost Decade was "lost". Japan is still there, Corporations like Nintendo and Toyota are still wiping the floor with their foreign competitors in product development (look at the Wii and the Prius), Japan hasn't descended into social unrest...

If a decade was lost, to whom? To the business class? To Wall Street? (they even profited from the `carry trade')

Do you have industrial production, unemployment, Human development index... statistics to support the concept of the "Lost Decade"? -- migeru



Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 05:24:40 AM EST
Migeru which only makes it more closer to home than he would like to admit...
Let me first start with his latest editorial complete {since short}.
Japan reconsidered
For a decade or so Japan's lost decade has been the great bugaboo of modern macroeconomics. Economists constantly warned that you mustn't do X or you must do Y, because otherwise we'll turn into Japan. And policymakers congratulated themselves in advance for not being like their Japanese counterparts, who dithered and drifted, refusing to make hard decisions.

Well, I'm sure I'm not the only person to notice this: Japan doesn't look so bad these days.

For one thing, the famed sluggishness of Japanese policy -- the refusal to face up to banking system losses and pour in the funds needed to recapitalize the system, the refusal to let zombie banks die, the stop-go nature of fiscal policy, with concerns about rising debt warring with concerns about the economy -- all of that seems entirely comprehensible now, doesn't it? Even with the knowledge of what happened to Japan to motivate us, so far we're following exactly the same path.

And given what the next couple of years are likely to look like, Japan's lost decade -- yes, growth was slow, but there wasn't mass unemployment or mass suffering -- is actually starting to look pretty good. We may or may not be about to face our own lost decade, but the sheer misery millions of Americans will face in the near future probably exceeds anything that happened in Japan during the 90s.

I still hope we can do better than the Japanese did, but it's not at all obvious that we will.

I find it funny that he can say with a straight face that "we're following the same path", when he understands that we have done them differently just maybe not as "big push" as he would want us to. Including the fact of "quantitative easing" that Japan did not start until 2001.

But if it was not so bad as in: "Japan doesn't look so bad these days." Then one has to wonder about a couple of his articles he has written before. He does seem to have studied the "lost decade" to understand it more than most economists. First: Setting Sun  Japan: What went wrong?
    By Paul Krugman

But the new story is much more interesting than the old one. How could a wealthy, productive, sophisticated country have gone from enviable growth in the 1980s to stagnation in the '90s, and now be slipping into a downward spiral of recession and deflation? True, Japan is not a country on the edge of chaos--as Indonesia or Russia is--but that only adds to the mystery. Japan isn't a place where the state is weak, unable to collect taxes or convince investors that their property rights are secure. Nor is it a country at the mercy of skittish foreign investors who must be persuaded to roll over its debt: Japan is still the world's largest creditor. So what's the explanation?

    Inefficiency? Japan has many inefficiencies that limit its productive capacity--too many mom-and-pop stores, not enough computerization in the office, and so on--but inefficiency per se is not the immediate problem. What Japan lacks right now is not supply but demand: Japan's consumers and investors just aren't spending enough to keep the country's shops and factories busy.
       And the usual remedies for inadequate demand aren't working. Interest rates have been pushed down almost as far as they can go. Like the Fed, the Bank of Japan normally targets the interest rate on overnight loans that banks make to each other. The difference is that this rate is more than 5 percent here, but basically zero there. The big public spending projects the Japanese government launches every now and then do create some jobs, but they never seem to yield enough bang for the yen: The economy keeps relapsing, while government debt keeps mounting.


And: TIME ON THE CROSS: CAN FISCAL STIMULUS SAVE JAPAN?
Now you could argue that the experience of the Depression and after provides just such evidence. Many economists thought that with the end of World War II spending the United States would revert to Depression-type conditions; a whole school of thought, the "secular stagnation" hypothesis, was built around that idea. In fact, once jolted out of depression, the U.S. did not fall back; one explanation is a story something like that in Figure 2.

But it is quite a stretch to argue that Japan in the 90s is a parallel case. It might be; but an at least equally, if not more, plausible story is that Japan has a structural excess of saving over investment, even at a zero interest rate; in that case a temporary fiscal stimulus will produce only temporary results.

What continues to amaze me is this: Japan's current strategy of massive, unsustainable deficit spending in the hopes that this will somehow generate a self-sustained recovery is currently regarded as the orthodox, sensible thing to do - even though it can be justified only by exotic stories about multiple equilibria, the sort of thing you would imagine only a professor could believe. Meanwhile further steps on monetary policy - the sort of thing you would advocate if you believed in a more conventional, boring model, one in which the problem is simply a question of the savings-investment balance - are rejected as dangerously radical and unbecoming of a dignified economy.

Will somebody please explain this to me?

Hey, well he can always change his mind, but it seems that at least he should acknowledge his change in positions and that maybe he was giving the wrong advice either then or now.

Krugman is Still a Dweeb

Rutherfordian ------------------------------ RDRutherford

by Ronald Rutherford (rdrradio1 -at- msn -dot- com) on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 05:57:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I live an Japan, and well, it does not look extremely bad. Yeah, export and other statistics are terrible - but this is probably more a story of a global boom. A lot more around will collapse before Japan would fall.

Krugam continues today in a similar way:

What's insane about Boehner's remark? He's talking about the current economic crisis as if it were a harvest failure -- as if we faced a shortage of goods, so that the more you consume the less is left for me. In reality -- even most conservatives understand this, when they think about it -- we're in a world desperately short of demand. If you consume more, that's GOOD for me, because it helps create jobs and raise incomes

If only we could keep consuming more... But what is happening, people are realizing the deepness (or proximity) of debt. Very likely, world's outstanding debt anywhere totals a much greater sum than existing money in the world. That's actually an inevitability of the monetary system - but who is to determine how deep we are. Boehner's "insanity" means we are repaying debts, but running out of money. Consumption can grow only with increasing debt - so that would only postpone the principal debt problem. Sooner or later we'll have to learn how to live without ever accelerating consumption and debt. Japan might be doing a bit of that.
by das monde on Wed Mar 11th, 2009 at 05:36:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
das monde: I live an Japan, and well, it does not look extremely bad.

I lived in Japan for nearly five years in the 2000s, and I agree:  it does not look extremely bad, especially if you were mostly in a big city like Tokyo (as I was).  But psychological distress is often hard to discern in outward appearance, especially in a society that puts as much importance on conformity, stability, harmony, and stoicism as Japan does -- which may explain the relative lack of demonstration protests and riots (I am not sure about the increase in crimes, which are one form of outward manifestation of psychological distress, but not as overt, nor political.)

Nevertheless, see my comment below on long-term unemployment, suicide, and HDI.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Wed Mar 11th, 2009 at 07:49:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I lived in Fukuoka, now in Kobe near Osaka. Fukuoka looked pretty good, and people not that stressed; jobs were surely better in Tokyo, but Fukuoka was a bit growing center as well. Now it is markedly less lively.

Kobe is a kind of upscale suburb of Osaka. Osaka's economy was not great even with "revival"; so it offers the best TV jokers. What I find remarkable is that building construction is still quite active; I could count close to 10 objects on my daily commute route, freshly under construction or recently finished. It seems they can go on with their projects even without rewarding profit perspectives. The common view is indeed that profit is not a big panacea here - big "fights" in Japan are for the market share.

Conformity in Japan is indeed high for social protesting. Is the psychological distress from "harmony" that simple as Westerners project? individualist promotion does not seem to resonate. The uchi/soto (our home vs those outside) separations are still strong; respect for a hierarchy as well. If a deep crisis will select for society cohesion strongly, is a larger tally of individual stress a big price to pay?

The implied harmonies must be generally decreasing, whether in the society, families or companies. But things here probably won't worsen very fast - so despair should be less hard than many outsiders expect. Many wages are already low here (especially for women), and some rental peculiarities are just outlandish. What can a crisis make worse? Disillusionment may hit other places much harder.

As for suicidal and demographic crunch problem: you can here an attitude here that this world is not worth living or bringing a child in. There is something to it at these times.

by das monde on Wed Mar 11th, 2009 at 09:18:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you are true about the effects on Japan, and they should be using their excess foreign reserves to make life a little better for them {IMHO}.

It really is not consuming more but absorption into the economy. Since you linked to Dr. Krugman, I do love discussing his "dweebness". More at: A Dweeb asks: Can America be saved? Paul Krugman.

Rutherfordian ------------------------------ RDRutherford

by Ronald Rutherford (rdrradio1 -at- msn -dot- com) on Wed Mar 11th, 2009 at 05:05:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Independent - Mary Dejevsky - Success is more than a set of statistics

The answer to all these questions, of course, is that it depends what you count and how you count it. The US topped so many economic rankings because, for the most part, it chose the indicators. Those indicators rated growth in gross domestic product and productivity as good and unemployment as bad, even if the jobs "created" did not need doing and a side-effect of non-existent benefits was violent crime that put as many young men in prison as were registered jobless in Europe.

A fun essay that mimics all of the talking points outlined by JaP 12 - 18 months ago.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 12:02:31 PM EST
The US capitalism is also a very leveraging economy. This can be similar to what Taleb describes in "Fooled by Randomness" or "Black Sawn" - the best performing Wall Street traders at any time are the most intelligent or knowledgeable, but the lucky portion of those taking largest risks. They usually burn badly sooner or later.

Or to give other example: As Daily Show reminded recently, the CNBS financial channel had introduced the Stanford fund ("mini-Madoff") as a great performing winner at the times of the subprime crisis. Well, it's very hard to outperform a Ponzi scheme...

by das monde on Wed Mar 11th, 2009 at 05:48:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Helen:
... a side-effect of non-existent benefits was violent crime...

Independent - Mary Dejevsky - Success is more than a set of statistics

Did not spend much time looking (or checking) for graphs on crime in Japan, but here are two of the first two sets I found:

The following graph in Japanese provides a longer historical perspective.  It uses the Japanese emperor-based dating system, where the 63 (on the bottom horizontal axis, about 1/5 of the way in from the right) indicates the 63rd and last year of the Showa period (the reign of the emperor Hirohito), or 1988, and 01 indicates the 1st year of the Heisei period (the reign of the current emperor Akihito), or 1989; 15 indicates 2003, and the last year shown, 19, indicates 2007. Against the left vertical axis, the blue indicates murders, orange indicates burglary/mugging-related deaths, and yellow indicates manslaughters.  Against the right vertical axis, I believe the the green line indicates the combined total of those three as the ratio of deaths per 100,000 people in the population:

A similar graph depicting reported incidents of rape in dark blue (against left axis), number of rape arrests in pink (against left axis), number of reported rapes per 100,000 people in light blue (against right axis), and number of rape arrests per 100,000 people in yellow (against right axis):



Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Wed Mar 11th, 2009 at 11:43:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Long-term unemployment and suicides went up in the mid-90's:

In his comments, the guy who put this graph together, Jon Peltier, notes that there does not seem to be a clear correlation betwen the two trends.  Nevertheless, the fact remains that both numbers increased steadily and significantly as the Japanese recession kicked in.  The question is then: does this support the characterization of these years as a "lost decade"?

As for Japan's HDI:

YearHDIRank
19900.9961
19910.9931
19920.9812
19930.9831
19940.9293
19950.9375
19960.9383
19970.9407
19980.9408
19990.9244
20000.9249
20010.9289
20020.9339
20030.9329
20040.9389
20050.94311
20060.9497
2007/20080.9538

Did not have time to read why 2007 and 2008 are combined.

On the other hand, the 2007/2008 report includes a "Trends" table which lists HDI values for Japan over thirty years as follows:

1975198019851990199520002005
0.8610.8860.8990.9160.9290.9410.953

with the note:

The human development index values in this table were calculated using a consistent methodology and data series. They are not strictly comparable with those in earlier Human Development Reports. For detailed discussion, see Readers guide and

So would it be accurate to say that the first table indicates a relative decline (with respect to other countries) but the second table shows an absolute increase in HDI, despite the "lost decade"?  (Which somehow reminds of me of the social construction of poverty and the relativity of wealth.)

[Actually, I originally wrote a rather long comment with graphs on Japanese marriage, divorce, and total fertility rates, and an allusion to the 引きこもり hikikomori phenomenon), but Firefox crashed on me -- just as I was about to post it, as usual.  Too bummed and too little time to recreate the comment.]

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 03:03:35 PM EST
Your two HDI tables don't match...

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 11th, 2009 at 05:50:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
with each new year, per the note I included.

I am not exactly sure how it works, but I think it may be like calibrating historical prices in today's currency.

Unlike inflation, however, the recalibration is not consistent: e.g. 1990 is adjusted downwards from 0.996 to 0.916 and 1995 is adjusted downwards from 0.937 to 0.929, but 2000 is adjusted upwards from 0.924 to 0.941 and 2005 is adjusted upwards from 0.943 to 0.953.

I compiled the first table by taking Japan's HDI from each individual year report, so it is possible that I misread these values and/or used the wrong column in the table, so I will double-check just to be sure.  However, I am pretty sure that the explanation, vague as it is, lies in the note for the "Trends" table that I quoted:

The human development index values in this table were calculated using a consistent methodology and data series. They are not strictly comparable with those in earlier Human Development Reports. For detailed discussion, see Readers guide and notes on tables.

I will look into the see Readers guide and notes on tables to see what is there.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Wed Mar 11th, 2009 at 08:01:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How did total unemployment look?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 11th, 2009 at 07:52:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Here are the first two relevant graphs that I got from googling unemployment japan on Google Images:

Unemployment rate of Japan by percentage (Source:IMF)

The Economic and Social Costs of Unemployment | Mark Thoma - Economist's View

When economists teach about unemployment, they are careful to point out that the costs of unemployment go beyond the loss of GDP from having unemployed resources, there are also the human and social costs to consider. Here's a good example of this from Japan:

Of course, as we all know, with unemployment, the devil is often in the details.

In an attempt to apply lessons from earlier discussions on measuring "real employment", I googled labor participation Japan, but for lack of time, the only thing I could come up with so far is:

Unemployment Rate and Ration of Job Offers to Job Seekers


Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Wed Mar 11th, 2009 at 08:29:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
With respect to the second graph above showing increasing suicide and unemployment starting in the early 90's, I should re-copy a remark from my comment above:

In his comments, the guy who put this graph together, Jon Peltier, notes that there does not seem to be a clear correlation betwen the two trends.  Nevertheless, the fact remains that both numbers increased steadily and significantly as the Japanese recession kicked in.  The question is then: does this support the characterization of these years as a "lost decade"?



Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco on Wed Mar 11th, 2009 at 08:51:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm guessing that's equivalent to the US BLS U3 rate, and is very low by (useless!) comparison to other places. I wonder what the other measures look like. See if I can make some time to hunt them out later.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 11th, 2009 at 08:56:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
but rather the undeniable trends, both in unemployment and in long-term unemployment, as given in these graphs above.  Even if they do not measure exactly what we would like them to, significant sustained climbs in both indices were a clear sign that more and more people were having difficulty finding jobs during the period in question.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco on Wed Mar 11th, 2009 at 09:23:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, here are some more suicide trends put together from OECD data, for a bit of international comparisons.

Looks from this one like Japan took one big step in a single year and then found another steady level. The real manic depressives seems to be the Icelanders, while the Irish have overcome their Catholicism to take their deaths increasingly into own hands. Other Nordic nations, which we know are suicidal, seem to have made some improvement efforts, and are not that different from Germany anyway.

I'm not sure how reliable conclusions can be drawn from these sorts of numbers.

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Wed Mar 11th, 2009 at 12:55:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Iceland's manic depressiveness is probably related to its small size... Maybe being so few leads to lack of self confidence. Or maybe because of the statistically small sample size...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Mar 11th, 2009 at 03:45:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the graph in this comment above and the following graph provide a little more resolution for Japon in the 90's and indicate that total suicides started climbing around 1990, though suicides initially dropped among women in the early nineties (green: total, blue: males, purple: females):

With regards to the spike in 1997, the following article from July 31, 1998 is informative:

RECORD UNEMPLOYMENT: A Cloud of Anxiety Looms Over Japan's Work Force

...

The Collapse of the Lifetime Employment System

Major Japanese corporations up to now have founded their hiring practices on a system of lifetime employment and have made employment security a top management priority, even when this meant keeping surplus workers on the payroll. The rising unemployment rate indicates that corporations are losing their capacity to support this surplus. Until now, large corporations have attempted to cut labor costs by limiting salary increases and paid overtime. The most common means of cutting staff size has been through attrition and reductions in new hiring. These measures may no longer be enough. Recently, companies have begun resorting to more direct means of employee reduction, such as by adopting voluntary retirement programs and laying workers off. The result has been a record number of out-of-work Japanese employees.

Moreover, due to sluggish domestic demand and Asia's economic turmoil, companies listed on the Tokyo Stock Exchange collectively closed the books on the fiscal year ending March 1998 with their first drop in earnings in four years. A considerable number of corporations finished the year in the red. These companies will need to undertake further restructuring measures to survive amidst stiffening international competition. As such, there is a high probability that more layoffs will be forthcoming.

...



Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco on Wed Mar 11th, 2009 at 06:14:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And that is not how poorly Japanese society fared, which is a moot point now. It is that the Japanese story was the feared experience of the '90s, yet by current standards (of where the world and particularly the US and UK are heading) seems desirable in comparison.

Japan was an example where one advanced country had the rest of the world economy to rely upon as a crutch...that is not the situation any of us face now.

by glacierpeaks (glacierpeaks@comcast.net) on Tue Mar 10th, 2009 at 11:59:05 PM EST


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