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European Salon de News, Discussion et Klatsch - 27 March

by Fran Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:21:53 PM EST

On this date in history:

1809 - Baron Haussmann, a French civic planner whose name is associated with the rebuilding of Paris, was born. (d. 1891)

More here and here


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by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:22:31 PM EST
Abortion clinics to advertise on television - Health News, Health & Wellbeing - The Independent
Watchdog changes rules in bid to stem rising tide of teenage pregnancies

Television ads for abortions will be allowed for the first time under the biggest shake-up of advertising rules for 50 years to be announced today.

In a move which the advertising watchdog acknowledges will offend members of the public, ads for pregnancy advisory services will be allowed in prime-time evening slots on the major channels: ITV, Channel 4, Sky and other broadcasters.

Britain's biggest independent pregnancy advisory service, whose clinicians perform abortions as well, said it would immediately consider running ads. "Absolutely," said Julie Douglas, who is head of marketing at Marie Stopes International. "I don't know if we could afford to do it in prime-time TV, but it would be a very interesting thing to do."

by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:24:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Or ... they could try doing effective sex and relationship education on the model used across the rest of europe. This would be in contrast to the usual UK Govt idea of rushing across the atlantic to go see how the only country in the west worse than us does it and then copying their failed policies.

but that would be difficult. After all, they're foreign and might eat garlic and have strange ideas about social services and high taxes that might be contagious.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 10:34:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well I've had it explained to me somewhere else that we are not European. We do things differentlyand we are psychologically different, being an island.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 11:12:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The sea keeps the cooties away.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 11:13:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Tempers flare as pain spreads in Europe - International Herald Tribune

LONDON: Tempers are flaring across Europe as the economic pain deepens and more people lose their jobs.

Just ask Fred Goodwin, the former chief executive of the ailing Royal Bank of Scotland, whose house and car were vandalized in the early morning on Wednesday. Or Luc Rousselet, the manager of a 3M factory in France, who was barricaded in an office for a second day by workers demanding better severance packages for 110 employees being laid off.

While such instances are scattered so far, the angry mood threatens to overshadow the Group of 20 summit meeting in London next week, where world leaders hope to find approaches to the financial crisis.

Several protests are planned in the City, the financial center of London, and the police are warning financial institutions to beef up security, to cancel unnecessary meetings and to keep employees inside. Bankers are being advised to wear "casual clothing" so as not to attract attention.

by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:25:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh I love to see this.It's about time for people to show revolt.Yesterday on TV here they said that Internet is brewing with actions and plans against these rich bastards that took millions in bonuses after putting all of us in this never ending crises that will only get worse.
Some officials in UK said that all tho they understand revolt and anger they do not like that people are taking justice in their hands. Then you who are bloody paid to take justice to your hands do your job!
But no...If they think that people are just going to suffer silently they have no clue...These are generations with a sense of entitlement...virtually everyone believes that he should be and will be rich some day.And now this.It's going to get really ugly.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 08:25:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Some officials in UK said that all tho they understand revolt and anger they do not like that people are taking justice in their hands. Then you who are bloody paid to take justice to your hands do your job!
AND NOT JUST IN THE UK!  However, I fear that the state's organized force will be used against the protesters brutally and effectively.

The truly sad aspect is that just, vigilant and vigorous enforcement of existing laws would be the best path towards solving the crisis we are all faced with.  In the USA all efforts by governmental agencies are directed towards avoiding acknowledging past and present crimes by the rich and powerful, starting with the Bush Administration and Wall Street and now extending to the Obama Administration, who, by refusing to enforce applicable laws, are preventing any resolution of the financial crisis and simultaneously building the scaffold on which they, themselves will be hung within four years.  Obama could still save himself, and the possibility of a better future, but I don't see him taking the necessary steps, which would involve assuming the position of "let justice reign or let the Heavens fall!"  

Perhaps a grand Auto da Fe at the G20 would be just the thing to concentrate everyone,s minds.  But it could also provoke escalating violence that is likely to assume its own dynamic and lead where it will.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 01:15:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
 
In the USA all efforts by governmental agencies are directed towards avoiding acknowledging past and present crimes by the rich and powerful, starting with the Bush Administration and Wall Street and now extending to the Obama Administration, who, by refusing to enforce applicable laws, are preventing any resolution of the financial crisis and simultaneously building the scaffold on which they, themselves will be hung within four years.

Great said!
Here in Australia Kevin Rudd is simply the best Obama student...on a spending spree...lucky us...so through the window went a budget surplus and we are now going in to red.All tho Australian banks seem to be in much better shape then others (for now).So nobody is even commenting bonuses...
But unemployment rose...and this is not the bottom of the hole...probably just beginning of the end.And they do say " When in hole, stop diging".

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 02:22:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ARGeezer:
In the USA all efforts by governmental agencies are directed towards avoiding acknowledging past and present crimes by the rich and powerful, starting with the Bush Administration and Wall Street and now extending to the Obama Administration, who, by refusing to enforce applicable laws, are preventing any resolution of the financial crisis and simultaneously building the scaffold on which they, themselves will be hung within four years.
This is how Geithner put it.

FT Alphaville: Geithner's game plan

I want to begin that process today by focusing on proposals that are essential to creating a more stable system, with stronger tools to prevent and manage future crises. In this context, my objective is to concentrate on the substance of the reform agenda, rather than the complex and sensitive questions of who should be responsible for what.
On a first reading I think he's saying a lot of the right things, but they also want to press ahead with "reform" and avoid making people accountable for past mistakes.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:25:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
His reform seems to be real reform - i.e. tighter regulation - and not neoliberal 'give me all your money' reform.

He is saying the right things, but his approach still makes the finance industry the black hole around which the rest of the economy revolves. With tighter regulation, better reporting, etc, etc, it will suck less than it does now. But it will still suck.

I'd be more impressed by increased transaction taxes for all trades. This kind of regulation can stop the industry exploding - which is good. But there's a difference between not exploding and remaining a dead hand on investment and development in the real economy.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 07:59:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I will concede that my contempt for "Timid Tim" will abate if and when his so called stress tests reveal a believable state of affairs at any of the top twenty or so banks and when ANY appropriate response is forthcoming from the FDIC or Treasury.  I have trouble seeing how the PPIP, (pee pee,) can be anything more than pissing on a bond fire, but with gasoline.  Yves Smith has already published anecdotal evidence to that effect.

Perhaps the folk at mi2g are correct and Weimar has been created in the form of more than $1.144 quadrillion in mostly unregulated financial instruments which most don't realize only because of the opacity of the relationships and the fact that only a small portion of the resulting liabilities have surfaced to date?  (See the conclusion portion of the Weimar link.)

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 11:29:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bankers are being advised to wear "casual clothing" so as not to attract attention.
Good plan! I'm sure they won't stand out in the latest spring collection designer casualwear...

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
by martingale on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 02:39:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They may want to avoid Manchester United T-shirts, though:

by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 03:39:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
this article merrily conflates illegal acts (vandalism against Fred "I'll keep my million-pound pension thank you very much" Goodwin's house and car) and workers demonstrating to keep their jobs.

I fail to see how that's a good see, in terms of frames.

The same IHT yesterday also had a frontpage article about how Europe was in disarray because the Czech government was toppled. It's not a sign of lively democracy in central Europe, it's a sign of Europe failing. Sigh...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:23:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As a regular reader of Le Canard Enchainé, you may have noticed of N.Sarkozy is regularly reported to expect/fear rising anger in the French population turning increasingly violent as the crisis draws on.

I haven't totally figured out whether he sees this as a danger for his presidency or as an opportunity to increase his power grip by instigating a "state of emergency" justified by the increased violence and scare to his constituency (largely over 60)...

by Bernard (bernard) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 09:03:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I haven't totally figured out whether he sees this as a danger for his presidency or as an opportunity to increase his power grip by instigating a "state of emergency" justified by the increased violence and scare to his constituency (largely over 60)...

He probably sees it as both.  But huge egos rarely take "danger for his presidency" too seriously but will use the opportunity to seize as much power as possible.

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 09:43:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
is not in conflating vandalism against Goodwin with workers demonstrating, but in identifying such vandalism and the kidnapping of Luc Rousselet as two kinds of illegal acts erupting from increasing "economic pain".

(Whether such illegal acts can be considered legitimate forms of "protest" or "civil disobedience" is another question.  In my book, they are not.)

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 10:06:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Georgian opposition reeling from videos - International Herald Tribune

MOSCOW: The Georgian authorities Wednesday made public surveillance video in which a political activist associated with the opposition leader Nino Burjanadze said Ms. Burjanadze and her followers were hoping that violent clashes with the authorities would force President Mikheil Saakashvili from office.

Ms. Burjanadze denied the allegation, saying the government had produced compromising material to discredit her. But the film -- the third such exposé in three days -- hit the Georgian airwaves immediately, sparking debate over its authenticity and, in some quarters, casting a shadow over the opposition.

"All my friends are divided now," said Tamar Otarashvili, 21, a university student. "The videos are a stimulus to those who are against the government. And those who are with the government started supporting it even more."

by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:25:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sounds fishy to me. 3 revelations in as many days, from well connected sources. Methinks an agent provocateur kind of thing is going on to discredit the opposition.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 10:54:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Poles feel snubbed by West in multinational organizations - International Herald Tribune

BERLIN: It may be that Poland never had a serious chance at winning NATO's top political job, but that has not stopped Poles from sensing another snub from their big European neighbors to the West, analysts and officials in Europe say.

Poland's long-shot bid to secure the post of secretary general of NATO for its foreign minister, Radek Sikorski, diminished even further this week when the United States threw its support behind Anders Fogh Rasmussen, the Danish prime minister. Mr. Rasmussen may or may not survive a challenge to his candidacy from Turkey, but if his prospects fall through, Mr. Sikorski, aged 46, does not even appear to be next on the list.

Rightly or wrongly, this rankles Poland, the largest East European member of NATO and the European Union and a nation that longs to exert an influence reflecting its size. As a result, standing in line and waiting for major international appointments has become a sore point for Poland's political class, which believes it has supported the United States and its European neighbors in some major initiatives but reaped little in return.

by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:26:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
US picks one reactionary over another.

What's NATO all about, again?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 02:57:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
By charter it is a defensive organization, and attack is the best form of defence?

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 03:22:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
does not make you friends?

What a surprise.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:24:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Czech government defeat raises major Lisbon concerns - EUobserver

EUOBSERVER / BRUSSELS - The presidents of both the European Commission and the European Parliament on Wednesday (25 March) urged the Czech Republic to proceed with the ratification of the EU's Lisbon Treaty despite the fall of the Czech government the day before, while Czech deputy premier Alexandr Vondra admitted the ratification would now become "more difficult."

Mr Topolanek's government was voted down on Tuesday (24 March)

"I would like to urge all political leaders not to use this political crisis in a way to make the Lisbon Treaty hostage to domestic problems. That would not be fair to the other countries of Europe," Mr Barroso said at a press conference in Strasbourg.

His comments came just a few hours after the centre-right Czech government of Prime Minister Mirek Topolanek lost a no-confidence motion by a single vote on Tuesday night.

The most likely scenario however is that the current government will remain in place until the end of the Czech EU presidency in June.

by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:26:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
US brewer loses court battle over Budweiser name - EUobserver

EUOBSERVER / BRUSSELS - Anheuser-Busch, the American brewing giant bought last year by Belgian brewer Inbev, has lost its appeal with the European Court of First Instance to trademark the name `Budweiser' across the European Union.

The firm first attempted to register the lager brand in the EU in 1996, a move opposed by Czech brewing firm Budejovicky Budvar, whose own Budweiser Budvar had been registered in Austria, France and the former Czechoslovakia in 1958.

Bottles of US beer 'Bud' and Czech beer 'Budweiser Budvar'

The European trade mark office, OHIM, backed the Czech firm. Anheuser-Busch unsuccessfully appealed the OHIM decision in 2007, which found that the trade mark applied for was identical to Budvar's brand, protected in particular in Germany and Austria.

Anheuser-Busch then brought the case before the Court of First Instance.

by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:27:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The bottom line is that American Budweiser ain't beer anyway.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 07:22:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought it was some form of branded water ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 03:23:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ha goliath loses again. In fact they've lost so often in so many different courts (outside the US) that I suspect this is now a fee-driven operation by the lawyers than any strategic planning at corporate level.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 10:58:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Romania Secures Financial Lifeline from IMF, World Bank and EU | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 26.03.2009
Romania is set to receive a nearly 20 billion euro ($27 billion) aid package cobbled together by the International Monetary Fund, World Bank and the European Union to help it weather the ongoing financial crisis. 

"We have successfully concluded negotiations on a multilateral support package including the IMF, the EU, the World Bank and other international organizations," said Jeffrey Franks, head of the IMF mission, at the end of negotiations Wednesday.

The IMF will make 12.95 billion euros available in a two-year standby credit, Franks said.

The IMF acknowledged the bleak economic prospects for Romania, already one of the EU's poorest countries in per capita terms, but said aid would limit the impact of the global financial crisis.

"In (the) current world economic environment ... the financing gap has opened up," Franks told reporters. "With international support, the adjustment will be cushioned and we are hoping to avoid the worst and have a gradual adjustment over time."

by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:28:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Somehow, the EU got something done, again. They can't find a Europe.Is.Doomed angle, so it becomes an IMF bailout storiy?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:25:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Merkel Calls Afghanistan NATO's "Biggest Test" | Germany | Deutsche Welle | 26.03.2009
German Chancellor Angela Merkel has said success in Afghanistan is critical for the future of NATO, ahead of a historic summit for the transatlantic alliance. That would mean rethinking strategy altogether, she said.  

"Afghanistan is NATO's biggest test at present," Merkel told the German parliament on Thursday, March 26, just over a week before Germany and France co-host a historic NATO summit marking the 60th anniversary of the military and strategic alliance.

"For me our aim remains clear ... that Afghanistan no longer poses a terrorist threat to our security, in other words in NATO member countries," Merkel said.

Success in Afghanistan and elsewhere will require a rethinking of NATO's strategic concept, she said.

by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:30:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
'New Challenges': Merkel Calls for NATO Strategy Rethink - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

German Chancellor Angela Merkel on Thursday called for NATO to overhaul its security strategy, saying the defense alliance needed to face up to new global threats. "Neither Europe nor America can master these challenges alone," she said.

 A German member of ISAF in Afghanistan: Merkel has argued that NATO needs a new plan.

NATO needs to draw up "a new strategic concept" to deal with changing global challenges, German Chancellor Angela Merkel said on Thursday, speaking ahead of the 60th anniversary summit of the alliance.

NATO states should seek "as much prevention as possible, so that we don't reach the point where only military assistance helps," she told the German parliament in Berlin in a speech ahead of the April 3-4 summit, which will be hosted jointly by Germany and France. She urged NATO leaders to start work on revising the organization's fundamental strategy, saying they should complete the important task within the year.

by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:32:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Test fail4d. Can be now dissolve NATO?

Or do we have to suffer it with Rasmussen on top?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 05:55:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by entering Afghanistan NATO failed it's test
by paving on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 06:29:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I had a conversation with a journalist that was invited to a tour of Afghanistan by NATO. He told me that the NATO guys kept on repeating, in all seriousness, "perception is reality" and were extra keen to underline that the battle would be won on the PR front (both locally and over here).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:27:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Orwell would be proud.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:29:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Rasmussen at the top is actually good idea. He will not dare to venture into Afghanistan or Pakistan's bad lands.
by FarEasterner on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 11:22:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you not confusing Anders Fogh Rasmussen (who is being proposed and would definitely dare) with Poul Nyrup Rasmussen (who is not being proposed and is probably as likely to dare as Javier Solana - a fellow Social Democrat and former anti-NATO campaigner - was to 'dare to bomb Yugoslavia')?

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 11:29:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Read this, paragraph 7.
by FarEasterner on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 11:40:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Net neutrality under threat as EU nears agreement on telecoms - EUobserver

EUOBSERVER / BRUSSELS - With MEPs and European Union member states just inches away from clinching a deal on a sweeping revision of EU telecommunications rules, one major issue remains the sticking point: whether the flow of information on the internet will remain neutral or be split, with some data being privileged over other data.

Supporters of net neutrality say that the EU is heading towards a two-tiered internet

Internet innovators, from Google to Skype to web-based start-ups are afraid that in the rush to get a deal on a telecoms package through the European institutions before the June parliamentary elections, so-called net neutrality is being left by the wayside.

Currently, wherever data comes from, whether from a silver-surfing Latvian granny blogging about her favourite traditional recipes or a multinational corporate content provider, the packets of information are treated equally, or neutrally, hence `net neutrality'.

Amendments to a proposal on the minimum levels of service provision by network operators backed by some centre-right MEPs however would permit telecoms companies and internet service providers to block or degrade some of the data passing through its lines while privileging other data.

by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:31:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
E.U. hustles to control damage after outburst - International Herald Tribune

PARIS: The European Union's crisis of leadership during this severe economic downturn was thrown into sharp relief on Wednesday, as the prime minister of the country that holds the rotating presidency lambasted President Barack Obama's emergency stimulus package as "a way to hell" that will "undermine the stability of the global financial market."

The blunt comments of the Czech prime minister, Mirek Topolanek, coming just a week before a crucial meeting of the Group of 20 that is supposed to show leaders coming together to cope with the crisis, were greeted with embarrassment by many Europeans, who believe that the Czechs do not represent the consensus in the European Union in any case.

What made the situation even more absurd was that Mr. Topolanek lost his parliamentary majority in the Czech Republic on Tuesday, with his new lame-duck status further weakening Prague's European presidency. Adding to the awkwardness, Mr. Topolanek will host Mr. Obama in Prague a few days after the G-20 meeting, at a United States-European Union summit.

So the old question of who speaks for Europe and when, especially in a crisis, has again become more acute, especially with persistent internal strains between more prosperous West European countries, which use the euro, and newer members in Central and Eastern Europe, which do not.

by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:33:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What is it that reminds me that the country of the NYT/IHT no longer has a lame-duck, useless, universally-despised leadership?

Never mind that. Europe.Is.Doomed

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 03:10:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC NEWS | UK | Police to probe UK torture claims

Police are to investigate whether an MI5 officer was complicit in the torture of ex-Guantanamo detainee Binyam Mohamed.

The Attorney General, Baroness Scotland QC, said the probe would be "the appropriate course of action".

Mr Mohamed, 30, a UK resident, said MI5 had prolonged his detention and torture while he was being held in Morocco.

The MI5 agent who questioned him has denied threatening or putting any pressure on Mr Mohamed.

by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:34:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The MI5 agent who questioned him has denied threatening or putting any pressure on Mr Mohamed.

Well, 'e would, wouldn't 'e ?</Mandy Rice-Davis>

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 11:08:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Barack Obama to finally appoint US ambassador to Britain - Telegraph

President Obama is finally to make the appointment - five months after his election - in the guise of Mr Susman, a 71-year-old investment banker and donor to the Democratic Party.

Mr Susman will officially carry the title of Ambassador to the Court of St James's.

"He has got the necessary clearances now and I would expect an announcement within the next week or so," says my man in Washington.

The appointment of a 'crony' of the President rather than a diplomatic high-flyer will be a disappointment for Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, who has already had to come to terms with the fact Britain now only has a "special partnership" with America rather than a "special relationship".


by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:35:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
President Obama is finally to make the appointment - five months after his election

But barely two months after his inauguration.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 05:02:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is all about the status.

The Telegraph wants to portray this a loss of "status" for Britain. A loss caused by Gordon Brown. I have always suspected that, both Labour and the Conservatives, prefer a Republican President as they are more likely to play along with the "special relationship" nonsense.

Democratic administrations have always been a little more distant and a little more scathing of the "special relationship". Clinton only warmed to Britain after John Major was replaced by ideological fellow traveler A. C. L (call me Tony) Blair.

Ah, poor old Britain: It's in for quite a hard landing what with this and the impending bankruptcy. I am hoping that ur true allies, the French, will come and rescue us (from ourselves).

Money is a sign of Poverty - Culture Saying

by RogueTrooper on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 01:25:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Torygraph:
The appointment of a 'crony' of the President rather than a diplomatic high-flyer will be a disappointment for Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, who has already had to come to terms with the fact Britain now only has a "special partnership" with America rather than a "special relationship".

No longer second toughest in the infants.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 07:51:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So No longer a Marriage, more a civil partnership?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 07:53:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A "special concubinage?"

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 01:21:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
less poodle, more pointer?

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 06:20:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Japanese give Paris tidiness lesson | The Japan Times Online

Expats police storied streets for discarded waste but residents prove mostly indifferent

... These men and women belong to an army of environmentalists who have made it their job to rid Paris' legendary monuments and streets of cigarette butts, food scraps, dog droppings and a host of other indignities. But most of the volunteers are not in fact French -- they're Japanese.

Greenbird Paris is the first overseas wing of a Tokyo-based nonprofit organization that has spread its antipollution message in Japanese neighborhoods since 2003. The Paris group debuted in March 2007 to clean up a city that has long been a favorite tourist destination for the Japanese. <...>

Alexandre Atwan, who owns a boutique inside the Palais des Congres, said the Greenbirds set a good example and lamented the days of more pristine pavements.

"The Champs Elysees, 23 years ago, was one of the most beautiful avenues in Paris -- there was no other street like it. Today, it attracts all the scum who believe that you must be dirty to be fashionable," Atwan said, as he threw his cigarette butt on the ground.

"I'll pick it up, it's just a joke," he quickly added, sheepishly. He never did.



Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:39:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure who exactly they are, but it's a common early morning sight in Tokyo to see groups of older women in vaguely custodial gear picking up trash.

People were also pretty diligent about cleaning public spaces in the country town I used to live in.  This is in stark contrast to my current location, where the local stream bank is routinely strewn with trash.

My guess is that the central areas of Tokyo are just better established and have a higher level of neighborhood pride and social cohesion than do its suburbs.

Of course, I live in a town whose traditional industries were smuggling, prostitution, and aquaculture . . . until the aquaculture was killed by the Aqua Line.

by Zwackus on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 09:41:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC NEWS | Europe | Putin scorns EU-Ukraine gas deal

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has dismissed an EU-Ukraine gas deal as "unprofessional", saying Russia - the main supplier - had not been consulted.

"If Russia's interests are ignored, then we shall also be forced to start reconsidering the principles of our relations with partners," he warned.

On Monday, Ukraine signed a deal paving the way for $3.4bn (£2.4bn) of Western investment in its gas infrastructure.

Ukraine's president pledged to stamp out corruption in the gas industry.

The agreement comes after a price dispute between Ukraine and Russia in January led to a shutdown of gas supplies to much of Europe for weeks, causing severe shortages for millions.

by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:40:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome 3 days ago:
Again: bah

This is about Russia trying to make the EU pay for investments that it needs to make, or pay for (or pay the Ukrainians to do). As soon as real money will be asked for (beyond studies and working groups, which are just pocket change in these matters), these talks will go nowhere.



Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 05:10:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Several people (a journalist familiar with Russia, and two separate Russian friends) all tell me that thy find the current draft in Russia appalling and worrying. The Putin personality cult on TV is worse than anything from 25 years ago, the corruption is getting worse, and Putin seems to be turning paranoid and cut off (one of my friends had drinks in a ski resport with a young guy who was a captain in the Special Security Service that protects Putin, and the guy was literally in puppyish love with his boss).

I haven't been to Moscow in a while, but I must admit that Putin's kneejerk reactions to news like that silly gas cooperation are as strange as they are counterproductive.

Apparently, though, there has been a Deal between Timoschenko and Putin.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:34:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He promised her 5 bln dollars. Paranoid climate? Yes, probably if to judge modern day Russia by its appalling media and Russia Today in particular. When I was in Thailand the hotel was offering only Thai and Chinese channels, Russia Today and Al Jazeera. I preferred not to watch TV at all.
by FarEasterner on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 11:10:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What's wrong with Al Jazeera?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 11:11:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by FarEasterner on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 11:18:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
FT.com / Europe - Zapatero favours `green' stimulus
Spain will launch a fresh round of government spending to pull its economy out of recession if another stimulus is needed later this year, José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, prime minister, said on Thursday.

In an interview with the Financial Times and other newspapers, Mr Zapatero said he would back a fresh round of European spending focused on renewable energy and biotechnology.

He acknowledged that such a fiscal stimulus would have to be better co-ordinated, more modest and more focused than the previously announced stimulus packages that are draining the coffers of most of the world's big economies.



"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 05:14:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
More modest? More modest than highway construction?...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 06:01:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
FT.com / Europe - Eurozone consumers defy gloom
The relative resilience of consumer spending across much of continental Europe is a striking feature of the recession, the worst since the second world war. While gauges of eurozone manufacturing activity, such as purchasing managers' indices, have fallen precipitously a result of collapsing export demand, the woe seems to be weighing less heavily on consumers in the 16-country region.

Germany's GfK research institute said on Thursday its consumer confidence index, which has held steady in recent months, would dip only slightly in April. Given the economic turmoil, the mood remained "robust", it said. In France, the Insee statistics office reported French consumer confidence was stable in March, albeit at a low level. In its otherwise gloomy outlook, which sees the French economy contracting by 2.9 per cent in the first half of this year, Insee expects household consumption to rise by 0.2 per cent in the first three months of this year and by 0.1 per cent in the second quarter.



"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 05:19:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So, what kind of stimulus do we need? US-style tax cuts, certainly not.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 06:02:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Investigator: NATO Countries Knew About Secret CIA Flights | Europe | Deutsche Welle | 26.03.2009
A special investigator for the Council of Europe testified before a German parliament committee that the NATO countries must have known about the secret CIA rendition flights used by the US in the War on Terror. 

NATO countries, including Germany, were aware early on that the United States was conducting secret rendition flights of terror suspects for possible torture following the attacks of September 11, 2001, says Dick Marty, who has been heading up an investigation into the flights on behalf of the Council of Europe.

Marty was speaking on Thursday before a special committee of the German parliament, set up to investigate the involvement of the German federal intelligence service (BND) in America's War on Terror.

The Swiss MP said that it was "absolutely incredible" that European governments had no knowledge of the activities carried out by the CIA prior to 2005.

He also finds it hard to believe that Germany could have been isolated from these activities.

by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 06:17:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
FT.com / World - State aid urged for Russian banks
Hundreds of Russian banks are likely to go under by the end of the year as the amount of bad loans surges, potentially hitting as much as 20 per cent of credit portfolios, a senior Russian banker has warned.

Pyotr Aven, president of Alfa Bank, one of Russia's largest private banks, called on the government to move swiftly to recapitalise the top 30 banks and name the institutions that will receive assistance to help kick-start the flow of credit, which has almost dried up amid growing fears over bad loans.

"We can expect that the level of overdue loans for the whole system might reach 15-20 per cent" by the end of the year, Mr Aven told the Financial Times. "Maybe the 20-30 biggest banks, including Alfa, will receive state support - we're sure.

"But the future of hundreds of small banks is under big question ... believe that hundreds of banks will disappear by the end of the year."



"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 02:37:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
FT.com / Brussels - ECB explores expansion of economic armoury
Lucas Papademos, ECB vice-president, heightened expectations that the central bank could soon start buying assets outright after noting in Brussels on Thursday that purchases of private debt securities could "reduce the cost of funding of the real economy, thus helping its recovery".
...
A distinct possibility is that the ECB will next week extend the maximum maturity of the funds it lends from the current six months - perhaps to nine or 12 months.

More indicative of the way the debate is going will be what happens to its "deposit facility" interest rate, paid on sums deposited at the ECB overnight, and set at 100 basis points below the main policy rate.
...
Even worse for some, would be buying government bonds - which would blur the boundaries between central banks and governments and thus threaten the ECB's cherished independence.



"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 02:46:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I found this link from the net:

http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/Germany/Price-History

From "Georgist" point of view, this is fantastic reading; it seems, that there is no housing bubble in Germany! Rents have been stable for 20 years and prices of houses have actually decreased during the same period. According to georgist theory business cycle is caused by the "land" bubble, which "locks up" the principal resource of the economy. If this is true, no such thing has happened in Germany. Perhaps we may soon hear some positive news from there.

by kjr63 on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 03:13:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yep :



"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 03:24:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wonder, how is this possible? Perhaps renting houses is less vulnerable to bubbles than buying houses? Or perhaps this has something to do with the re-unification..
by kjr63 on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 03:44:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Or the slow decrease of the German population?

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 03:55:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nah to all. House construction did not stop, especially as practically all homes in the East had to be retrofitted. The "slow decrease of the population" is true only from 2003. Other EU countries with decreases did experience housing price bubbles.

No, you have give credit to the fact that Germany failed to deregulate (resp. did so too late). A few years ago, in the boom times for the rest of the world, real estate market lobbyists were bombarding the government with demands for cutting bureaucratic slack and taxes (in particular the high VAT on private home construction), blasted banks for not providing easy housing credit (in particular: refinancing was almost impossible), and demanded the introduction of financial innovations like stock market noted real estate investment funds and mortgage-backed securities. On part of that, the outgoing Schröder and incoming Merkel governments did act, fortunately it was too late for the development of a bubble.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 04:23:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Other EU countries with decreases did experience housing price bubbles."

And those would be?

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 04:49:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For example Poland and Latvia. Both of which had to do with deregulation.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:02:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
While the population started falling in 2003, deaths have been more numerous than births since at least 1975.

So it's been only immigration that kept the level -and not particularly white collar immigration.

As the husband of the daughter of 2 immigrants, one thing I notice is that working class immigrants tend to live with more people in a unit than the native population average.
So what you have is construction still going on -an increase in number of houses- with a reduction in households. To dismiss that as a factor is brave.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:00:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
More relevant would probably be the numbers of people aged 20-80 - And I'm not so sure that one has been decreasing in Poland or Latvia already...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:05:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just for the heck of it, I fed Eurostat's total population and age groups data into a spreadsheet. (No data for 20-80 years, but I did it for 15-79 and 25-79.)

  • Latvia: 15-79 year olds trended downward at least since the start of the period with data (1998), 25-79 year olds peaked 2001,

  • Poland: both age groups still keep growing(!).


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:27:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, did housing decrease in Latvia or Poland in the 1990's ? Because raising prices from a too low level can be enough to kickstart a bubble anyway...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:38:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Was it you that posted some data (price and volume) about the housing market in Paris in a discussion of the bubbles a couple of years ago?

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:40:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, if you mean that one..

But then, it seems Latvia shut down housing construction during the 90's leading to a probable shortage :

I can't find price data going back to the '90's...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:47:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now I need to find that thread... I'm finding it harder than I expected.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 06:27:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So it's been only immigration that kept the level -and not particularly white collar immigration.

The same can be said about most EU countries with bubbles where the population kept increasing even after 2003, especially Spain -- you can't single out Germany as special in this. Besides, I noted one opposed trend that was definitely special to Germany: the large-scale construction and reconstruction of homes in the East. (I mean, even in other ex-communist areas, such construction activity wasn't as strong for lack of domestic influx of Western subsidies.)

BTW, I forgot to give a link to this 2005 Die Welt article about the moaning real estate lobby (in German).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:08:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well...
Spain STILL has 120 000 more births than deaths! In 1975 it had more than twice as many births as deaths. I don't think we can compare that with Germany, which has had since 1975 at least, many more deaths than birth.

On top of that, few rich Brits bought mansions in Germany, which was a major cause of the boom.

As for Latvia and Poland, in the 1990s... I think that there were rather sweeping changes (actually the same can be said, to an extent, of Spain) that would make it hard to use them as comparison with Germany on regulation grounds alone. Simply no longer being in the Soviet dominion perhaps? Escaping from the major depression that followed the dissolution of the Warsaw pact?
And they only joined the EU in 2004 -which brought a lot of foreing investors. Again, a comparison to Germany that did not have a major external boost is bound to give strange results.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 06:55:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Spain STILL has 120 000 more births than deaths! In 1975 it had more than twice as many births as deaths.

My bad. Checking INE, I see the downward trend of natural growth turned after almost going zero in 1998. That leaves Italy.

I don't think we can compare that with Germany, which has had since 1975 at least, many more deaths than birth.

Well, true, though it oscillated -- going almost to zero in 1988.

Regarding the other factors, methinks you nicely destroyed your own case for simplistic comparisons (if not any meaningful comparisons). I note that East Germany was "no longer being in the Soviet dominion" either.

And they only joined the EU in 2004 -which brought a lot of foreing investors.

That is not a sufficient reason. The Czech Republic, and also Slovakia and Hungary, did not experience such a boom, while Romania did. The difference is, again, in regulations.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 07:51:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Another factor not mentioned is the demand from people who can now afford and want better homes -- be it people living in small and/or decrepit apartment blocks, or people living in substandard old village houses. This demand was certainly stronger in Spain or new EU members (and possibly France and Ireland) than West and, in the current decade, perhaps even East Germany. The UK is another thing.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 08:02:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
New construction in Spain is generally cheap and inferior and less durable than it was 20 or 30 years ago in many cases. That's part of what happens in a bubble.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 09:52:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you look at the Latvia curve I posted upthread, at one point the country built under a thousand apartments a year - I wonder how you go from that level to twelve thousand apartments a year being built in 5 years and maintain any semblance of quality !

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 11:29:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
New construction in Spain is generally cheap and inferior and less durable than it was 20 or 30 years ago

That's not what I meant. On the short term, it may be (perceived) as higher quality than a 60, 100 year old house/apartment with low water pressure or loud neighbours beyond thin walls or cracks in the wall due to weak foundations or lack of canalisation.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 12:06:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My own case?

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 09:22:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It might also be that Germany has tough renters protection laws, which make it very difficult to raise the rent and almost impossible to kick a renter out and if you really have "good" reasons you have to give them at least 3 months for finding a new appartment. At least that is what i have been told, but by the houseowner.

However, we have similar law's here in Switzerland too, so renting has many advanteges.

by Fran on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 04:06:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
France has a tough renter protection laws. It didn't prevent the house prices to soar between 2001 and 2007.



"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 04:36:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
does not seem to account for inflation (much lower in Germany than elsewhere), but this one is relevant.

Part of the recent increase (but only part) can be explained by the relatively low interest rates, and the increase in debt maturities (15y used to be the maximum, now it's often 20-25y), but there are excesses too, obviously.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:39:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What about the behaviour of British expatriates Jerome? Could the entrance, into the French real estate market, of British "investors" and their values have a affected the market to such an extent?

Money is a sign of Poverty - Culture Saying
by RogueTrooper on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 08:55:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is similar in Spain which is why the supply of rental accommodation is low and everyone wants to own.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 04:55:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Fantastic thread (downstream).  Definitely worth working into a diary.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 10:09:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
 EUROPEAN ELECTIONS 
by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:22:52 PM EST
EU Council spending disapproved by the European Parliament - NEW EUROPE - The European News Source

Members of the European Parliament postponed, on March 17, the approving of the Council's administrative spending for the year 2007. Members of the Budgetary Control Committee claimed that the spending had become increasingly operational and therefore the Parliament should have scrutiny over the Council budget. Moreover, the Council has refused to give the committee more detailed facts. "The vote to postpone `granting discharge' was to show that MEPs took this issue very seriously but also to give Council the opportunity to deliver the information requested before the April plenary session, when the full House will vote on budget discharges for the EU institutions and agencies," said Søren Søndergaard, rapporteur for this issue. The Budgetary Control Committee decided to postpone granting discharge to other bodies also, for instance the Police College, mainly because of the lack of appropriate information as was the case for the Council. However, the Commission and other institutions and agencies got the approval of the EP.

by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:39:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In Hungary, 7 July was announced as the date of the EP elections -- the end of the permissible period (4-7 July). (This is another feature I am beginning to dislike: chaos of election times like in the USA.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 06:18:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Comment is free: David Toube: MEPs are up in arms at the possibility that Le Pen might chair the European parliament (26 March 2009)
The story, in short, is this. By virtue of having made it to the grand age of 80, Jean Marie Le Pen is likely to be the oldest member of the incoming European parliament. Under existing parliamentary rules, he would therefore be asked to chair its inaugural session. Le Pen's function would be essentially ceremonial. He will perform the role for the briefest of moments: until the assembly's president or speaker is decided. The whole business is, a little bit of flummery: a method of honouring a veteran parliamentarian.

For that reason, a coalition of anti-fascists in the European parliament has emerged, who are determined that this accolade is not bestowed on Le Pen. To deprive him of his five minutes of glory, they want to change the parliamentary rules. According to the European parliamentary Labour party, however, the move is being blocked by Graham Watson, the Liberal Democrat MEP and leader of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats in the European parliament.

I've spoken to Graham Watson. His view is reasonable enough. Essentially, what he says is that to fuss about Le Pen's five minutes in the sun is to give the man publicity that he does not deserve. Moreover, he points out, it is easy enough to stop Le Pen: just put up an older "dinosaur" for election.



Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 11:17:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ECONOMY & FINANCE
by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:23:14 PM EST
Allied Irish Banks hit by £56m loans scam - Times Online

Allied Irish Banks was revealed as the victim of a £56 million alleged fraud today as the Serious Fraud Office (SFO) announced it had raided three addresses in Central London as part of a formal investigation.

Other financial institutions had also been deceived by the suspects, the SFO said, raising the prospect that the alleged fraud was even larger.

The main suspect, who operated with the assistance of others, controlled companies provided with loans from Allied Irish Banks between 2003 and 2007. It turned out that supposed guarantees from a blue chip property company supporting the loans were fraudulent, the SFO said.

[Murdoch Alert]
by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:29:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ECB ready to help European businesses - EUobserver

EUOBSERVER / BRUSSELS - The European Central Bank gave its strongest indication to date on Thursday (26 March) that it is ready to step in and help European businesses that are struggling from a shortage of credit and are unable to get bank loans to finance their activities.

ECB Vice-president Lucas Papademos said the bank was actively considering a programme to start buying European corporate debt in a bid to get the market flowing again.

Guenter Verheugen (r) says more and more companies are coming to him with complaints of credit shortages

"It may be warranted that the central bank purchases private sector bonds in the secondary market in order to enhance its liquidity," said Mr Papademos.

Such a move, known as quantitative easing, would help SMEs and larger European companies who are currently finding it difficult to fund further investment.

by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:30:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They have to do this because the ECB is barred from buying Eurozone government debt, but apparently not corporate debt.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 05:07:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Pen Pals: 'Bonehead' German Finance Minister Sends Invite to Krugman - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman has blasted Germany's Peer Steinbrück for his resistance to economic stimulus spending. Now the "boneheaded," "know-nothing" finance minister has sent Krugman an invitation to come to Berlin to discuss their differences.

Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman is used to addressing large audiences, whether in the lecture halls of Princeton University or from his prominent perch as a columnist at the New York Times. But, Krugman will soon receive an request to speak before an audience of one. Earlier this week, German Finance Minister Peer Steinbrück sent an official invitation to Krugman to meet with him in Berlin to discuss their differences on the financial crisis.

 Finance Minister Peer Steinbrück wants to chat with Paul Krugman It won't be the first time the two men have corresponded -- though until now, the communication has been one-sided and consisted mainly of Krugman making disparaging remarks about Steinbrück via his column and blog. Indeed, Krugman has repeatedly emphasized his belief that deficit spending is among the few bulwarks against a reprise of the Great Depression and he hasn't shied from pillorying those with a cooler attitude towards stimulus.

by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:32:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey! For once, an admirable mlve from Steinbrück. As for something good coming out of it (both in terms of Krugman 'getting Europe' and Steinbrück 'getting Keynesianism'), let's wait and see.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 06:06:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed - but at least he is willing to talk to Krugman.

Money is a sign of Poverty - Culture Saying
by RogueTrooper on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 08:57:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC NEWS | Business | France set to ban bank bonuses

The French government is to issue a decree banning bonuses and share options for executives of banks that have received government aid.

Presidential official Claude Gueant said the decree would be adopted next week as employers refused to draw up their own code of conduct.

Bonuses to executives of troubled banks have caused anger across the world.

US lawmakers have voted for a 90% tax on big bonuses to employees of banks that have taken government funds.

"A decree will be issued next week to set conditions under which the distribution of stock options or other advantages like bonuses is forbidden for companies that have benefitted from state aid," said Mr Gueant.

"Capitalism is there to enrich all the population and not just the bosses," he added.

by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:33:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On the last line: hahaha!

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 06:07:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Gordon Brown contradicted on stimulus | The Australian

GORDON Brown's campaign for a G20 agreement committing governments around the world to spend up on recession-busting fiscal stimulus packages has been undermined by an embarrassing warning that Mr Brown's own Government cannot afford to follow his advice.

Mervyn King, Bank of England governor, yesterday warned against increasing debt by spending more on stimulus packages.

The warning from Britain's top central banker came as Mr Brown was in Strasbourg addressing the EU parliament before travelling on to New York, Brazil and Chile and then hosting next week's G20 summit in London.

Mr Brown has already loosened his Government's purse strings in response to the recession but has backed US President Barack Obama's calls for further co-ordinated stimulus spending around the world, saying that the impact would be much greater if many governments injected new funds at the same time.

[Murdoch Alert]
by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:39:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Credit crunch will lead to oil shock warns consultant | Markets | Analysis | Reuters

LONDON (Reuters) - The global financial crisis and collapse in the oil market have stalled vital investment in oil exploration and production and are likely soon to lead to a sharp spike in prices, an energy consultant and financier says.

Matt Simmons, founder of Houston-based investment bank Simmons & Co, argues the underlying rate of decline of the world's ageing oilfields is as much as 20 percent a year and only high levels of investment can reduce that to single digits.

With credit tight and oil prices almost $100 (68.75 pounds) a barrel below their highs last year, oil companies are unable to sustain previous levels of spending and the result is falling production, he said in an interview on Thursday.

"We are three, six, maybe nine months away from a price shock. We are not talking about three to five years away -- it will be much sooner," Simmons told Reuters in London.



"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:40:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
FT.com / US & Canada - US reveals sweeping regulatory overhaul
The Obama administration wants to force a wide range of large financial institutions to hold more capital as part of a sweeping regulatory overhaul that Tim Geithner, US Treasury secretary, yesterday called the "new rules of the game".

Mr Geithner told Congress that the US needed a fresh approach to regulating risk that identified problems across the financial system as a whole if it were to prevent a repeat of the current financial crisis.

The heaviest demands would be placed on institutions deemed to be systemically important - ranging from large banks to insurance companies, financial groups such GE Capital and, potentially, hedge funds of sufficient size. But regulations would also be tightened for an even broader range of institutions and products, including over-the-counter derivatives.



"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 05:16:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now all we need is a way to get from here to there.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 01:31:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hungary became the worst-hit in the EU following three large parallel drops on financial markets on 9 October (see Hungary in danger of bankrupcy?). One of these was the share price of the largest bank OTP, the only major bank not owned by foreign banks.

At the time, it became pretty evident that OTP was subject to an attack by speculators (with the suspected intent of enabling a takeover). Financial oversight authorities announced an investigation, but kept details secret.

Today, it was announced that Soros Fund Management LLC was fined 500,000,000 Forints (€1.66 million) for illegal market manipulation, a record for the oversight authority. The Soros Fund conducted the short-selling electronically from London, as explicitely proven by a taped telephone call of the broker. Te profit was $675,000.

Soros himself says that, having retired from active trading in the fund, he did not order this and is very sorry about it, but will initiate an internal investigation.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 06:43:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
'I'm having a very good crisis,' says Soros - who made £1billion as the world plunged into recession | Mail Online

A hedge fund manager who predicted the global credit crunch has said the financial crisis has been 'stimulating' and the culmination of his life's work.

George Soros, who predicted the global financial crisis twice before, was one of the few people to anticipate and prepare for the current economic collapse.

Mr Soros said his prediction meant he was better able to brace his Quantum investment fund against the gloabal storm.

But other investors failed to take notice of his prediction and his decision to come out of retirement in 2007 to manage the fund made him $US2.9 billion.

And while the financial crisis continued to deepen across the globe, the 78-year-old still managed to make $1.1 billion last year.

'It is, in a way, the culminating point of my life's work,' he told national newspaper The Australian.

by Fran on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 02:50:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I sahould reproduce Soros's words more precisely:

Szeretném hangsúlyozni, hogy a Soros Fund Management működését már nem én ellenőrzöm. Az elmúlt évben visszavonultam, és kizárólag a saját számlám üzletkötéseit irányítom, ám a cég kereskedelmi tevékenységét nem én felügyelem.I would like to emphasize that I no longer oversee the workings of Soros Fund Management. I retired last year, and direct solely the trades of my own account, but it's not me who oversees the commercial activity of the firm.


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 06:28:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
what do you make of vladimir's speculation about Soros in response to this comment?

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 10:20:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Speculation? What's the speculation in that, isn't he referring to the article Fran quotes (and marco links to in reply to vladimir)?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 12:29:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
i.e.
the guys that bought the credit default swaps, have made billions, and are now in position to snap up pretty much the entire economy at fire-sale prices.

referred to in the comment that I quoted?

The article that Fran posted and I referred to do not mention anything about Soros making his £1 billion in this recession off of CDS's.  I am not saying he didn't; I just would like to know if that is a realistic possibility, and whether there is any evidence that he did.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 12:48:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fran:
'It is, in a way, the culminating point of my life's work,' he told national newspaper The Australian.
Yes, he's gotten a book out of it.
European Tribune: Soros on politics
The New Paradigm for Financial Markets: The Credit Crisis of 2008 and What it Means


Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 06:38:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you know if there are any other prosecutions regarding this short-selling? (Without naming names, of course...)
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 03:39:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hah...

I am not aware of pending ones, especially against the nameless one (who, BTW, used to work for Soros); but there was at least another fine handed out in connection with OTP. That was for a large withdrawn transaction on 20 November. But the fined company says that that was a consequence of a typo (the broker typed in an extra zero, making the planned transaction ten times bigger).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:49:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC News - G20 protest professor suspended

A university professor who warned that bankers could be "hanging from lampposts" during G20 protests next week has been suspended from his job.

Chris Knight, of the University of East London, told BBC Radio 4 things "could get nasty" after ex-bank boss Sir Fred Goodwin's Edinburgh home was attacked.

The university confirmed in a statement the professor of anthropology had been suspended from duties on Thursday.

An investigation was being launched into his comments, it said.

The statement read: "Professor Chris Knight has been suspended from his duties at the University of East London, pending investigation.



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 09:18:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Anthropologists don't accept that "Homo Economus" is human.  Obviously a dangerous sort.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 01:35:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is this return of witchhunt a la MCCartyism or it was always so in Britain? Words and intentions are not actions, people cannot be prosecuted on what they say but on the basis what they do.
by FarEasterner on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 04:56:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC NEWS | UK | G20 protest professor suspended

The professor was interviewed for BBC Radio 4's PM programme after the home and car of former Royal Bank of Scotland boss Sir Fred were attacked by vandals early on Wednesday morning.

Mr Knight, who was organising protests next week, said: "We are going to be hanging a lot of people like Fred the Shred [Sir Fred Goodwin] from lampposts on April Fool's Day and I can only say let's hope they are just effigies.

"To be honest, if he winds us up any more I'm afraid there will be real bankers hanging from lampposts and let's hope that that doesn't actually have to happen.

"They [bankers] should realise the amount of fury and hatred there is for them and act quickly, because quite honestly if it isn't humour it is going to be anger.

"I am trying to keep it humorous and let the anger come up in a creative and hopefully productive and peaceful way.

"If the other people don't join in the fun - I'm talking about the bankers and those rather pompous ministers - and come over and surrender their power obviously it's going to get us even more wound up and things could get nasty. Let's hope it doesn't."

Media literacy wouldn't seem to be the professor's strong suit.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 08:12:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Media literacy"?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 08:19:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Only saying incredibly stupid things in the public when you're in a position to get away with it.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 08:45:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
(Not including spare a spare 'the' before you've had your breakfast can work too)
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 09:29:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The fiscal abuse by and of the Fed: Part 2 by William Buiter  25 March 2009

For the Fed's potential $1 trillion exposure to private credit risk through the Term Asset-Backed Securities Loan Facility, for instance, the Treasury only guarantees $100 billion. They call it 10 times leverage. I call it the Fed being potentially in the hole for $900 billion. Similar credit risk exposures have been assumed by the Fed in the commercial paper market, in its purchases of Fannie and Freddie mortgages, in the rescue of AIG, and in a host of other quasi-fiscal rescue operations mounted by the Fed and by the Fed, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, and the US Treasury jointly.

I consider this use of the Federal Reserve as an active (quasi-)fiscal player to be extremely dangerous and highly undesirable from the point of view of the health of the democratic system of government in the US.

There are two reasons for this. First, it undermines the independence of the Fed and turns it into an off-budget and off-balance sheet special purpose vehicle of the US Treasury. Second, it undermines the accountability of the Executive branch of the US Federal government for the use of public resources - taxpayers' money.



"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 01:45:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
FT.com  - Swiss banks ban top executive travel - Concerns that employees will be detained
Switzerland's private banks have started to ban their top executives from travelling abroad, even to neighbouring France and Germany, because of fears they will be detained as part of a global crackdown on bank secrecy.

The head of one leading private bank in Geneva said the growing determination of countries such as the US and Germany to tackle tax evasion and secrecy meant banks felt they had to take extra measures to protect employees.

"Some banks have taken this precaution," he said. "If today I go to Germany to visit two banks I deal with...German customs can take me in and question me."



"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 02:41:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL! That's like the ban on travel to the West for police officers in the eighties here...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 04:04:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
FT.com / Global Economy - UN panel urges reserve currency reform
World leaders should give urgent attention to reaching consensus on creating a global reserve system that would replace the US dollar as the main international currency, the United Nations General Assembly was told on Thursday.

The recommendation, by an advisory committee set up by the 192-member world body, followed China's proposal for an extension of the use of special drawing rights (SDRs) created by the International Monetary Fund and the eventual replacement of the dollar as the world's reserve currency.

Russia weighed into the growing debate by proposing a conference of government representatives and experts aimed at drafting international agreements on a new global monetary and financial architecture.
...
Joseph Stiglitz, the Nobel-prizewinning US economist who chairs the UN advisory committee, said reform of the global reserve system was long overdue. In the context of the present financial crisis, the dollar-based system meant that poor countries were lending to rich countries at virtually zero interest rates rather than using reserves to stimulate their own economies.

He told the General Assembly that financial instability had obliged developing countries to accumulate dollar reserves to protect against a rainy day. The consequence, however, was to tie up trillions of dollars that could be spent on helping them combat the worst effects of the financial crisis.

"The current system contributes to global instability, it contributes to the insufficiency of global aggregate demand," Mr Stiglitz said.



"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 03:09:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Quiet Coup - Simon Johnson - The Atlantic
The crash has laid bare many unpleasant truths about the United States. One of the most alarming, says a former chief economist of the International Monetary Fund, is that the finance industry has effectively captured our government--a state of affairs that more typically describes emerging markets, and is at the center of many emerging-market crises. If the IMF's staff could speak freely about the U.S., it would tell us what it tells all countries in this situation: recovery will fail unless we break the financial oligarchy that is blocking essential reform. And if we are to prevent a true depression, we're running out of time.
...
The great wealth that the financial sector created and concentrated gave bankers enormous political weight--a weight not seen in the U.S. since the era of J.P. Morgan (the man). In that period, the banking panic of 1907 could be stopped only by coordination among private-sector bankers: no government entity was able to offer an effective response. But that first age of banking oligarchs came to an end with the passage of significant banking regulation in response to the Great Depression; the reemergence of an American financial oligarchy is quite recent. Of course, the U.S. is unique. And just as we have the world's most advanced economy, military, and technology, we also have its most advanced oligarchy.


"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 04:16:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Paul Krugman: The wizards were frauds

Paul Krugman sounding increasingly like Chris Cook

Much discussion of the toxic-asset plan has focused on the details and the arithmetic, and rightly so. Beyond that, however, what's striking is the vision expressed both in the content of the financial plan and in statements by administration officials. In essence, the administration seems to believe that once investors calm down, securitization -- and the business of finance -- can resume where it left off a year or two ago.

To be fair, officials are calling for more regulation. Indeed, on Thursday Tim Geithner, the Treasury secretary, laid out plans for enhanced regulation that would have been considered radical not long ago.

But the underlying vision remains that of a financial system more or less the same as it was two years ago, albeit somewhat tamed by new rules.

As you can guess, I don't share that vision. I don't think this is just a financial panic; I believe that it represents the failure of a whole model of banking, of an overgrown financial sector that did more harm than good. I don't think the Obama administration can bring securitization back to life, and I don't believe it should try.



Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 04:19:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Cyrille:
I believe that it represents the failure of a whole model of banking, of an overgrown financial sector that did more harm than good. I don't think the Obama administration can bring securitization back to life, and I don't believe it should try.

I wish I'd said that

<you will, Chris, you will>

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 01:55:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
White, rich and male British PM Gordon Brown was embarassed in Brazil:

The Guardian: 'Blue-eyed bankers' to blame for crash, Lula tells Brown

White, blue-eyed bankers are entirely to blame for the world financial crisis that has ended up hitting black and indigenous people disproportionately, the president of Brazil declared .

In an outspoken intervention as Gordon Brown stood alongside him, Luiz Inacio "Lula" da Silva pledged to make next week's G20 summit "spicy" as he accused the rich of forcing the poor into greater hardship.

"This crisis was caused by no black man or woman or by no indigenous person or by no poor person," Lula said after talks with the prime minister in Brasilia to discuss next week's G20 summit in London.

"This crisis was fostered and boosted by irrational behaviour of some people that are white, blue-eyed. Before the crisis they looked like they knew everything about economics, and they have demonstrated they know nothing about economics."

Challenged about his claims, Lula responded: "I only record what I see in the press. I am not acquainted with a single black banker."
...

Apparently visit to Brazil has excedeed Brown's expectations on the eve of "spicy" G20 summit.

by FarEasterner on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:21:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ha! There go the hopes that Lula is 'better' than Chávez :-)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:32:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure how this differs from the many female commentators complaining that this would all have been avoided with more women in top jobs. However, essentialist drivel like "all of the people responsible were male, predominantly white driven by testosterone" was accepted as being legitimate comment.

It isn't. Yes they were male, but to say that women can't be like that (and actually there are numerous examples of women being exactly like that) is to deny women the full range of human expression. Women have every capability of being arrogant and aggressive, just as many men, in fact most men, are not arrogant or aggressivie to any noticeable effect.

so how come the rules change when lula adds blond blue eyed ?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 11:51:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Other Chicago School - Forbes.com
Better than any other sociologist, Sudhir Venkatesh understands the economics of underground workers. What should we do about them?

You may think the economic meltdown is hitting bankers and Realtors hard, but spare a thought for members of the underground economy--prostitutes, drug dealers and purveyors of stolen goods, to name just a few participants. That's what sociologist Sudhir Venkatesh does, having spent much of the last 15 years studying, and sometimes living within, the underground economies of New York and Chicago.

"The recession is engendering more violence," says Venkatesh, a professor at Columbia University. "There's far greater competition for whatever meager resources there are. The folks down on Wall Street peddling drugs, they're fighting. The sex workers are trying as hard as they can to retain their clients," he says


Venkatesh is struck by how much the black market resembles the wider society in which it is enmeshed. In the same Parisian banlieues that erupted in riots in 2005, he observed an "almost aristocratic," highly centralized criminal operation. In the ghettos of Chicago, by contrast, he observed underground workers convene an ad hoc court to solve a dispute. His dismisses the "culture of poverty" theory, which suggests that poor blacks in America don't work because they don't value employment. "People in America want to work," he says. They do so ever so industriously, even when they're breaking the law.

Via Mark Thoma.
by Bernard (bernard) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 08:57:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

From Non Sequitur

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 10:14:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Op-Ed Columnist - The Market Mystique - NYTimes.com

The market mystique didn't always rule financial policy. America emerged from the Great Depression with a tightly regulated banking system, which made finance a staid, even boring business. Banks attracted depositors by providing convenient branch locations and maybe a free toaster or two; they used the money thus attracted to make loans, and that was that.

And the financial system wasn't just boring. It was also, by today's standards, small. Even during the "go-go years," the bull market of the 1960s, finance and insurance together accounted for less than 4 percent of G.D.P. The relative unimportance of finance was reflected in the list of stocks making up the Dow Jones Industrial Average, which until 1982 contained not a single financial company.

by Bernard (bernard) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 09:30:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC News - House price decline accelerates

House prices are falling even faster than before in England and Wales, according to the Land Registry.

Prices dropped by another 2% in February, pushing the annual rate of decline from 15.1% to 16.5%.

It means the average property is now worth £153,862, down by £30,361 in the past year, and back to the level last seen in September 2004.



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 10:28:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, house prices have still a long way to go (down):



"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 11:14:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
WORLD
by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:23:30 PM EST
India is stealing water of life, says Pakistan - Asia, World - The Independent
Thousands of Punjab farmers suffer as river Chenab runs dry

Crucial, coveted and increasingly scarce, water has become the latest issue to stoke tensions between India and Pakistan, with farmers in Pakistan's breadbasket accusing Delhi of reducing one of the subcontinent's most important rivers to little more than a trickle.

A group of more than 20 different UN bodies warned earlier this month that the world may be perilously close to its first water war. "Water is linked to the crises of climate change, energy and food supplies and prices, and troubled financial markets," said the report. "Unless their links with water are addressed and water crises around the world are resolved, these other crises may intensify and local water crises may worsen, converging into a global water crisis and leading to political insecurity and conflict at various levels."

The crisis in the agricultural heartland of Pakistan relates to the Chenab, one of a series of waterways that bisect the Punjab, which means 'five rivers'. The Chenab is fed with glacial meltwaters from the Himalayas and for centuries has provided crucial irrigation for the region. But last summer farmers began to notice the levels of both the river and groundwater begin to fall.

by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:25:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
An India/Pakistan Water War has been predicted for some time.  Too many draws for the flow even before the snow pack went away.

Same situation developing in the Middle East over the Jordan River.  

China is starting to see water problems as well which is highly likely - almost certainly - going to be acerbated by a 'flush back' internal migration from the Pacific coast urban to inland rural due to the global economic crisis.

And so on and so forth.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 08:35:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
William Pfaff :  An Unsatisfactory Way to Run a War
Paris, March 19. 2009 - The fog around NATO's future deepens as the treaty organization approaches its 60th anniversary. Judy Dempsey, central European expert for the International Herald Tribune, reports that the United States has all but concluded that it is time for the American commend in Afghanistan to take over complete control of the (illogically) divided dual western force in Afghanistan, part NATO and part American (the latter Operation "Enduring Freedom," according to the grotesque names the Pentagon has long chosen to assign operations which once were given such human-scale titles as "Anvil," "Torch," etc.)

The dual force is the result of the initial failure to get NATO seriously involved in Afghanistan. In the accepted if informal Allied scheme of things the U.S. is supposed to wage wars for freedom, and the Europeans clean up the smashed crockery and build schools and democratic institutions.

In Afghanistan, while the bureaucratically indivisible attention of Washington was on Iraq, the Taliban came back into Afghanistan, and the NATO units there had to react.

So they did, but in a predictably riven way, with the separate governments involved placing their own units under different mission-definitions and operational limitations. Some, like the Canadians, fought; others went on building schools. The American forces present were mainly separated geographically from where NATO was operating, and were in gung-ho, if unsuccessful, pursuit of Osama bin-Laden and what Donald Rumsfeld used to call the Bad People.

by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:28:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The dual force is the result of the initial failure to get NATO seriously involved in Afghanistan. In the accepted if informal Allied scheme of things the U.S. is supposed to wage wars for freedom, and the Europeans clean up the smashed crockery and build schools and democratic institutions.

That's a rather loaded view. Immediately post-9/11, NATO invoked Article 5 of its treaty (that an attack on one member of the organisation should be deemed an attack against all) and declared its readiness to give the US full support. It was the Bush/Cheney administration that decided, no doubt for reasons of domestic political communication, that the Afghan campaign would be entirely American-led, calling it "Enduring Freedom".

With the switch of American attention to the Iraq theatre, Bush/Cheney then reduced presence in Afghanistan and obtained some NATO members' entry in 2003 under the ISAF banner, alongside Enduring Freedom. The notion that American forces were "gung-ho" after OBL at that point (and since) is also fairly incongruous. (Bin Laden had skipped long before.)

Not that I disagree with the overall thrust of Pfaff's article.

What the major NATO countries don't need is an expanded NATO or American war in Central and South Asia. If or when General David Petraeus comes around to NATO headquarters in Kabul, and says, "Look, guys. The time has come for the bunch of you to shape up or ship out," they might do well to reply, "Sir, our bags are packed. It's been grand working with you, but take our parting advice. There's no future for any European soldier in this country."

All that's lacking is to add "American" to "European".

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 04:23:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Peter Galbraith will take key UN role in Afghanistan 'civilian surge' - Times Online

The UN Secretary-General bowed to American pressure yesterday and named a former US ambassador to a key role in Afghanistan.

Peter Galbraith, son of the late economist J.K. Galbraith, became the UN's second-in-command in Afghanistan, despite the protests from the man who will now be his boss. The appointment strengthens US influence over the UN operation in Afghanistan as the Obama Administration is about to reveal its new strategy to win the war against the resurgent Taleban.

Mr Obama is planning a "civilian surge" of hundreds of US diplomats and aid workers alongside the injection of 17,000 more US troops. In his new post Mr Galbraith will be responsible for political issues, including election and parliamentary matters, security sector reform, peace and stability and human rights, the UN said. He replaces Christopher Alexander, a former Canadian Ambassador to Kabul.

Mr Galbraith is a long-time ally of Richard Holbrooke, Mr Obama's assertive new troubleshooter for Afghanistan and Pakistan - or AfPak, as it is becoming known.

[Murdoch Alert]
by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:29:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
AfPak

OMG

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 04:26:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In the UK a number of regulatory agencies of shortened from office of telecommunications to Oftel, Ofcom etc.

Now NATO is becoming AfPak (OfPak)

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 12:27:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
U.S. cities deal with a surge in shanty towns - International Herald Tribune

FRESNO, Calif.: As the operations manager of a outreach center for the homeless here, Paul Stack is used to seeing people down on their luck. What he had never seen before was people living in tents and lean-tos on the railroad lot across from the center.

"They just popped up about 18 months ago," Mr. Stack said. "One day it was empty. The next day, there were people living there."

Like a dozen or so other cities across the nation, Fresno is dealing with an unhappy déjà vu: the arrival of modern-day Hoovervilles, illegal encampments of homeless people that are reminiscent, on a far smaller scale, of Depression-era shantytowns. At his news conference on Tuesday night, President Obama was asked directly about the tent cities and responded by saying that it was "not acceptable for children and families to be without a roof over their heads in a country as wealthy as ours."

While encampments and street living have always been a part of the landscape in big cities like Los Angeles and New York, these new tent cities have taken root -- or grown from smaller enclaves of the homeless as more people lose jobs and housing -- in such disparate places as Nashville, Olympia, Wash., and St. Petersburg, Fla.

by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:33:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Atomic agency to choose new head - International Herald Tribune

PARIS: Officials from 35 nations began voting Thursday for a successor to Mohamed ElBaradei as head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, a watchdog body that plays a central role in monitoring and investigating charges of illicit nuclear proliferation and promoting atomic energy for peaceful purposes.

But an initial three rounds of voting failed to deliver a decisive winner and the balloting will continue Friday, news reports said.

The post, held by Mr. ElBaradei, 66, since 1997 when he took over from Hans Blix of Sweden, carries a high-voltage political charge at a time when the Obama administration is seeking to coax Iran into talks over its contentious enrichment program and the IAEA itself is investigating whether Syria has sought to build a covert nuclear capability.

Only last week President Barack Obama offered a video-recorded message to Iran urging the leadership in Tehran to talk out its many differences with the United States -- an offer that was swiftly rebuffed by Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, and other officials.

by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:34:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
   
When a withdrawal is not a withdrawal - Asia Times Online :: Middle East News, Iraq, Iran current affairs
WASHINGTON - Despite United States President Barack Obama's statement at Camp LeJeune, North Carolina, on February 27 that he had "chosen a timeline that will remove our combat brigades over the next 18 months", a number of Brigade Combat Teams (BCTs), which have been the basic US Army combat unit in Iraq for six years, will remain in Iraq after that date under a new non-combat label.

A spokesman for Defense Secretary Robert Gates, Lieutenant Colonel Patrick S Ryder, told Inter Press Service on Tuesday that "several advisory and assistance brigades" would be part of a US command in Iraq that would be "re-designated" as a "transition force headquarters" after August 2010.

by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:35:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Israel admits killing 189 children in Gaza campaign - Telegraph
Israel's armed forces admitted on Wednesday that 189 Palestinian children under the age of 15 were killed during the assault on the Gaza Strip.

The first official figures released by the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) of the casualties inflicted by the three-week campaign found that a total of 309 Palestinian civilians were killed. But the IDF said that armed fighters from Hamas and other militant movements accounted for most of the 1,370 dead.

The survey was disclosed as Benjamin Netanyahu, the incoming prime minister, presented himself as a peacemaker and assured Palestinians that his government would be their "partner". One day after enlisting the Labour Party into a broad coalition, embracing Left and Right, Mr Netanyahu focused on his plans to help the Palestinian economy.

by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:36:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | China fury at US military report

Beijing has reacted angrily to a Pentagon report on China's military power, which claimed it was altering the military balance in Asia.

A foreign ministry spokesman called it a "gross distortion of the facts", and urged an end to "Cold War thinking".

In its annual report to Congress, the Pentagon said China was developing "disruptive" technologies for nuclear, space and cyber warfare.

It could be used to enforce claims over disputed territories, the report said.

Beijing was again criticised for a lack of transparency in reporting military spending and security policy.

by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:36:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Australia's Rudd to America: China Is Not an Enemy - ABC News

Australia Prime Minister Kevin Rudd has urged Americans not to view China as an enemy but as a country offering huge economic opportunities, even though its leaders have "done some bad things in the past."

Rudd made his comments during a visit to Washington, where the Mandarin-speaking former diplomat has been welcomed as an expert on China as well as a close ally of the United States.

Rudd was asked on the PBS television program "The NewsHour With Jim Lehrer" whether Americans should view China as an ally, an enemy, or some other way.

"I think China represents a huge opportunity for us all for the 21st century," Rudd replied, noting it has a big part to play as "the center of global economic gravity" shifts toward the Asia-Pacific region.

by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:37:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Apparently he was inspired by example of Helen Clarke, who almost ruined New Zealand while carefully cultivating friendship with Chinese comrades. Now she was rewarded with senior UN post as the head of UN development program. What do you think how big chances of Rudd to become head of one of the UN agencies after he will sell off to China remnants of Australian mining industry?
by FarEasterner on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 04:48:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
FT.com / Global Economy - Number of chronically hungry tops 1bn
The number of chronically hungry people has surpassed the 1bn mark for the first time as the economic crisis compounds the impact of high food prices, the United Nations' top agriculture official has warned.

In an interview with the Financial Times, Jacques Diouf, director-general of the Food and Agriculture Organisation, warned that the increasing numbers of undernourished people could trigger political instability in developing countries.

"The issue of world food security is an issue of peace and national security," he said, urging world leaders who are discussing ways to resolve the economic crisis not to forget that last year more than 30 countries suffered food riots.

The Rome-based organisation estimated last year that about 960m people were chronically hungry in 2008. Mr Diouf said that had since risen and "unfortunately, we are already quoting a number of 1bn people on average for this year".



"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 03:05:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Unless something really major happens real soon, like in the next 18 months, to radically change the situation this is only the start of a really nasty de-population cycle.  

Resource Wars in the developing world won't be over oil, natural gas, and chromium.  They will be over food and water.  

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 03:31:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
When human beings, even with their big brains, act like animals, nature treats them like animals.  Starvation is a form of "natural" population control. Why the surprise?  The trick is to stay fed.  And not everyone will.

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 10:11:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Here is a full quote of the editorial.

The Vatican felt the heat from an unprecedented amount of international condemnation last week after Pope Benedict XVI made an outrageous and wildly inaccurate statement about HIV/AIDS. On his first visit to Africa, the Pope told journalists that the continent's fight against the disease is a problem that "cannot be overcome by the distribution of condoms: on the contrary, they increase it".

The Catholic Church's ethical opposition to birth control and support of marital fidelity and abstinence in HIV prevention is well known. But, by saying that condoms exacerbate the problem of HIV/AIDS, the Pope has publicly distorted scientific evidence to promote Catholic doctrine on this issue.

The international community was quick to condemn the comment. The governments of Germany, France, and Belgium released statements criticising the Pope's views. Julio Montaner, president of the International AIDS Society, called the comment "irresponsible and dangerous". UNAIDS, the UN Population Fund, and WHO released an updated position statement on HIV prevention and condoms, which said that "the male latex condom is the single, most efficient, available technology to reduce the sexual transmission of HIV". Amidst the fury, even the Vatican tried to alter the pontiff's wording. On the Holy See's website, the Vatican's head of media, Father Federico Lombari, quoted the Pope as having said that there was a "risk that condoms...might increase the problem".

Whether the Pope's error was due to ignorance or a deliberate attempt to manipulate science to support Catholic ideology is unclear. But the comment still stands and the Vatican's attempts to tweak the Pope's words, further tampering with the truth, is not the way forward. When any influential person, be it a religious or political leader, makes a false scientific statement that could be devastating to the health of millions of people, they should retract or correct the public record. Anything less from Pope Benedict would be an immense disservice to the public and health advocates, including many thousands of Catholics, who work tirelessly to try and prevent the spread of HIV/AIDS worldwide.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 08:10:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is deliberate. Today, a French bishop went further:

L'évêque d'Orléans se défie du préservatif - Société - Le Monde.fr Bishop of Orléans doesn't trust the condom - Société - Le Monde.fr
"La preuve est faite que le préservatif n'est pas une garantie à 100 % contre le sida." L'évêque d'Orléans, André Fort, a volé au secours du pape, Benoît XVI, vendredi 27 mars, sur les ondes de France Bleu Orléans. "Vous le savez très bien, tous les scientifiques le savent : la taille du virus du sida est infiniment plus fine que celle d'un spermatozoïde", a expliqué l'évêque. "Proof is that the condom is not a 100% guarantee against AIDS." The Bishop of Orléans, André Fort, flew to the aid of Pope Benoît XVI, Friday March 27, broadcast on France Bleu Orléans. "You know it very well, all scientists know the size of the AIDS virus is much smaller than that of a spermatozoa", explained the bishop.



"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 08:47:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, if the Bishop doesn't trust condoms, nobody is making him use them.

But given the numbers of clergy who seem to be intimately involved with their choirboys I hope they're using them anyway.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 12:33:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
THIS, THAT, AND THE OTHER
by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:23:51 PM EST
The Raw Story | Oliphant Israel-Gaza cartoon called 'hideously anti-Semitic'
The latest cartoon by the most widely syndicated political cartoonist in the world has raised the ire of the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), which is dedicated to fighting anti-Semitism.

The ADL's director called the syndicated cartoon, published Wednesday and reprinted below, "hideously anti-Semitic."

"Pat Oliphant's outlandish and offensive use of the Star of David in combination with Nazi-like imagery is hideously anti-Semitic," Abraham Foxman said in a statement released Wednesday. "It employs Nazi imagery by portraying Israel as a jack-booted, goose-stepping headless apparition. The implication is of an Israeli policy without a head or a heart."

As of late Wednesday, Oliphant had not responded publicly to the ADL's criticism of the cartoon.
by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:29:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
An organization that named Silvio Berlusconi Man-of-the-Year doesn't merit a response.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 07:27:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Psychics given £4,500 government funding to teach people to communicate with the dead - Telegraph
Two psychics from Wales have been awarded £4,500 of government funding to teach people how to 'communicate with the dead'.

Paul and Deborah Rees, who are both self-styled mediums, have been awarded the cash under the Government's Want2Work job creation scheme.

The couple, from Bridgend, south Wales, will use it to instruct people on how to contact friends and relatives "on the other side".

by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:36:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I like to look at the humorous side of things, and there probably is one here, but my keyboard is speechless.

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 10:13:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe Gordon's hoping they'll hear from his policies while they're at it.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 12:36:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
LA Times: Hunting of baby harp seals is banned in Russia

The Russian government has announced a ban on the hunting of harp seals younger than 1 year old.

Following a statement by Prime Minister Vladimir Putin that it is "such a bloody hunt, and it is clear that it should have been banned a long time ago," the Russian Federal Fisheries Agency updated a ruling from last month, which banned hunting seals younger than a month old, to instead ban the hunting of seals under 1 year of age.

"This bloody seal slaughter, the killing of defenseless animals, which can't even be called a 'hunt,' is now prohibited in Russia as it is in most developed countries," said Yuri Trutnev, Russia's Minister of Natural Resources and Ecology. "It is a serious step toward the conservation of biodiversity in Russia."

Apologies if this has already been posted.  I searched and didn't see that it had.

"Talking nonsense is the sole privilege mankind possesses over the other organisms." -Dostoevsky

by poemless on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:50:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Guardian - What are they smoking? Questions on marijuana flood White House website

Apparently, America is a country full of potheads. That would be the assumption if you took a look at the questions submitted by internet users for Barack Obama's town hall meeting today.

The four most popular questions under the category of "financial stability" sent to the White House's website were marijuana-related.



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 06:44:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Obama can't afford to run afoul of the alcohol lobby.  He's got enough enemies already.

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 10:15:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC News - Pope 'distorting condom science'

One of the world's most prestigious medical journals, the Lancet, has accused Pope Benedict XVI of distorting science in his remarks on condom use.

It said the Pope's recent comments that condoms exacerbated the problem of HIV/Aids were wildly inaccurate and could have devastating consequences.

The Pope had said the "cruel epidemic" should be tackled through abstinence and fidelity rather than condom use.

Correspondents say the attack from the Lancet was unprecedentedly virulent.



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 07:06:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Because the Pope was unprecedentedly inaccurate and distorting.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 07:12:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, the pope is 100% right and he hasn't distorted scientific findings. Anti-Christian press has quoted incomplete and content distorting the pope, and is continually misrepresenting catholic ethics, though it there is no reason to blame the Lancet.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 10:18:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Give us the full and undistorted papal position, then.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 10:23:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
that
  • without a rethinking of relationships and giving fidelity a higher value, the AIDs epidemic won't be defeated.
  • the advertising of the use of condoms may risk to cloud that truth, and assist a culture of promiscuity.

The scientific findings, of which the Lancet likely speaks is, that AIDs becomes epidemic only in highly promiscuitive environments. Actually the main goal of the authors was to focus the efforts against AIDs on those countries, where there is a real AIDs epidemic, without studying which methods should be applied.

To rely one a contraception device, that needs to be applied directly before sexual activity isn't seen as very effective way in our societies, as people have then other things on mind [or are too drunken to think anyway, or have forgotten to equip themselves in time, etc.; in Africa additionally people want a lot of children]. So I do believe the first bullet. You can reduce with condoms the spread of AIDs, but getting rid of its epidemic character won't work. The second point is somewhat speculative, but wasn't made definitive by the pope, but stated carefully as possibility, and something which has to be taken in account in the fight against AIDs.

If one looks on the correlation of AIDs infection rate and share of catholic population, it seems catholicism reduces the risk of AIDs. And that despite the false media statements on the catholic position on contraception, see below.

The general line on contraceptions such as condoms is, that the pope and the church oppose its use, but not dogmatic [this is one thing the media never gets; there dogmas, doctrines, and mere opinions; the media often acts as if every statement by the pope would be a dogma]. The individual conscience overrules such a position, that is only a general advice. Fidelity and abstinence are the favoured ways to prevent pregnancy and spread of illnesses, but obviously if you can't follow this advice, not using condoms gives you the chance on a Darwin award.
Actually while I know lots of catholics personally, I don't know not a single one opposing the use of contraception personally. For most of my childhood I visited a school run partially by nuns, and had my sexual education by one of the relatively conservative nuns, and even she gave 'green light' to contraception.

The best way to fight AIDs is to use every available tool. A culture of fidelity is one aspect, that will help young people not to become infected.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 11:49:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So, how do you explain this:

L'évêque d'Orléans se défie du préservatif - Société - Le Monde.fr Bishop of Orléans doesn't trust the condom - Société - Le Monde.fr
"La preuve est faite que le préservatif n'est pas une garantie à 100 % contre le sida." L'évêque d'Orléans, André Fort, a volé au secours du pape, Benoît XVI, vendredi 27 mars, sur les ondes de France Bleu Orléans. "Vous le savez très bien, tous les scientifiques le savent : la taille du virus du sida est infiniment plus fine que celle d'un spermatozoïde", a expliqué l'évêque. "Proof is that the condom is not a 100% guarantee against AIDS." The Bishop of Orléans, André Fort, flew to the aid of Pope Benoît XVI, Friday March 27, broadcast on France Bleu Orléans. "You know it very well, all scientists know the size of the AIDS virus is much smaller than that of a spermatozoa", explained the bishop.

It is not the first time a bishop makes such a statement

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 11:59:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why do I have to explain this? Of course it is nonsense ot believe, that the size of the HIV makes condoms ineffective. But he is not the pope.

There are lots of people believing in astrology, kidnappings by aliens, wild conspiracy theories, psychoanalysis. So what is so amazing to find a bishop to believe some nonsense?

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 12:19:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Martin:
But he is not the pope
He's following instructions from the Vatican to go out and support the Pope in public.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 12:24:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But that doesn't mean, that the false statement, that the HIV can go through condoms is an instruction from Vatican.

And actually I have the impression that not always the  [German] bishops get what Benedikt is saying correctly on various times.

I think you have a misconception of the catholic church. It is by far not as hierachic as you think. The Vatican has to conciliate lots of very different traditions, across countries, educational levels, and political directions. So usually the pope is going to make very general statements. Of course there a lots of players with various agendas in the church. And maybe some do believe this (which if they really believe it, is not a reason for some of the more insulting statement either). But it is not an official catholic position, and as far as I can see, not even the opinion of the pope, who is a very smart person, even if unable to do PR.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 12:55:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Martin:
I think you have a misconception of the catholic church. It is by far not as hierachic as you think.
And I think you're wrong. Just today:
El Vaticano exige a 'fieles y obispos' que se pronuncien contra el aborto | España | elmundo.esThe Vatican demands of 'faithful and bishops' to pronounce themselves against abortion | Spain | ElMundo.es

The Vatican regularly wages political campaigns in one country or another and instructions do come from the top.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 01:02:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Uhmm,
  • there is nothing said about precise arguments
  • abortion is indeed taken much more serious than contraception; the reason is the conception of when human live begins [in my opinion a very good conception, but we have discussed that already, so no reason to start that discussion again]; abortion is seen as a form of murder
  • and what are the consequences if a faithful doesn't pronounce himself against abortion?


Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 01:11:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Pope Benedict praises Vatican teaching against birth control - International Herald Tribune
In a speech marking the 40th anniversary of the document, Benedict reiterated the Church's ban against artificial birth control as well as more recent teaching against using artificial procreation methods.

Pope Paul VI's 1968 "Humanae vitae" ("On Human Life") encyclical prohibits Catholics from using artificial birth control.



"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 01:17:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Me:
The general line on contraceptions such as condoms is, that the pope and the church oppose its use, but not dogmatic

So what do you want to tell me?

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 02:09:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Vatican Says No Change to Teaching Against Condom Use
VATICAN CITY, May 5, 2006 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, president of the Pontifical Council for the Family, said the Catholic Church would not change its position on the use of condoms to prevent the spread of AIDS, reported the Catholic News Agency this morning.


"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 01:19:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, there is nothing said about precise arguments because the point is to unleash the legions of the faithful to make lots of noise. Now the lack of precise arguments will provide you with plausible deniability as when you say
But he is not the pope. [...] what is so amazing to find a bishop to believe some nonsense?


Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 04:05:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Deniability of what?

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 04:19:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of the fact that the Church orchestrates campaigns from the Vatican. That French Bishop was spewing bullshit not because the vatican had told him to spew that specific bullshit but because he was supposed to go out and campaign against condoms.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 04:23:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As Melanchthon has kindly linked to a speech by Benedikt, the official reasoning about the non-use of condom is laid down in Pope Paul VI's 1968 "Humanae vitae". So everybody who feels pressed to defend the official position of the church on condoms, might inform himself there. The French bishop could have found there arguments, that are not in contradiction with science, and sound much more intelligent, even if they might not be.

There is no need to deny non-existing orchestrated campaigns, because if they would exist, there would be nothing wrong with it. It is not exactly that the pope hides his opinion. It is just as dodo put it

There is a Catholicism for theologicians, and there is one for common people. You are talking of the former, Colman is talking about the latter...

and the press isn't willing to make the effort to explain the former in public, because it is somewhat complicated.

People who have official positions, like a bishop or a priest, are supposed to follow a much more narrow set of not only the dogmas, but as well less binding statements. Again, this is of course not hidden in any way. I thought Melanchthon's point was the scientific rubbish the bishop told. There is no theological statement that would contradict anything of what I said in the comment before.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:02:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fidelity and abstinence are the favoured ways to prevent pregnancy and spread of illnesses, but obviously if you can't follow this advice, not using condoms gives you the chance on a Darwin award.

It's not so simple. If you follow fidelity (and 'natural' family planning) but your partner doesn't, your chances to get AIDS are almost equal to that of your partner...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 12:11:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
First of all, can you point to a clear source for what you say the Pope said? because you have accused the world press of being anti-Christian and having - all together and with remarkable agreement - distorted his words.

Next, I don't entirely disagree with this:

The best way to fight AIDs is to use every available tool. A culture of fidelity is one aspect, that will help young people not to become infected.

or, more simply, that education about risk should produce more careful behaviour (and if that means abstinence/fidelity for those who accept it, why not? It's better than AIDS).

But the Pope's message (unless you show me conclusively that he said something else) was against the use of the condom and indeed that condom use aggravated the problem. That tends to denigrate the condom in the eyes of the entire population, not just those who will adopt abstinence/fidelity.

But since you say it's just an "opinion"... You mean Catholics are free to use contraceptive methods other than the "rhythm" method?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 12:12:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I once had a Jesuit very carefully explain that it was up to each couple to use their informed conscience to decide, in the context of a marriage, whether use of artificial contraception was allowed or not. So it depends on the audience - if the cost to the church of allowing it (being laughed out of middle class Ireland) is greater than not allowing it it's allowed.

There is a strain of thought in the Catholic Church that seems to believe that growing lots of new Catholics is the highest calling of lay people, even if they're poor, starving, AIDS ridden Catholics.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 12:16:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Idiot.

The division in various qualities of statements is hundreds of years old. If you don't have a clue, why are you writing nonsense?

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 12:24:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Did you just call me an idiot and then write a sentence that doesn't make any sense?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 12:28:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This thread is degenerating into flaming, so let's stop it.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 12:29:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As you posted this comment, I didn't reply to Colman. But then you should stay out of dispute, e.g. not rate my comment 2, and Colman's lies not. This is really unfair.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 01:16:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You got personal. Whether Colman is lying is a factual point.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 03:48:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
after several hours I come back to this issue.

Whether Colman is lying is a factual point.

No it is a gross insult. He talked about a Jesuit pater, who actually told exactly the same thing I told before. Then he said:

So it depends on the audience - if the cost to the church of allowing it (being laughed out of middle class Ireland) is greater than not allowing it it's allowed.

This is very clearly an accusation of hypocrasy. And it is about me. And his claim is clearly wrong, as this is for quite a long time the official position of the church. And it is not the first time he attacks me. For you subversive message understanding challanged person: In the link he accuses me of advocating famine, while he is defending ideas, that by now have proven to at least produce water shortages.

I personally perfer to be open and direct. I would rather prefer to be called an idiot, then being subject to these subversive insults.

And he goes on.

There is a strain of thought in the Catholic Church that seems to believe that growing lots of new Catholics is the highest calling of lay people, even if they're poor, starving, AIDS ridden Catholics.

He may not mean me, but what is the point of the quote, other than provocing? Has he made any useful contribution?

Later he says:

Catholic legalism  - doctrine, dogma, dogfood, whatever - is used to give the Church cover from its more ludicrous positions when they become socially untenable in the local market.

Again attacking me [I'm as much the catholic church as the pope, and I'm sure the pope would agree]. What is the point of all this? I have explained why this difference is necessary, but didn't get any reasonable answer. Again he is attacking me as a hypocite, because the church changes its positions. So adjusting norms derived from values due to new information and changed circumstances is hypocritical, but not changing norms is killing people from AIDs?
There is no reasoning behind it from Colman. It is just assholish behaviour. And you rate him up, and not me, when I explain the things.

Ok, but apart from Colman, what is with the rest of the thread.
There is this quote of the BBC, that is now beyond doubt proven as false. I commented on it and made that point. Afew asks for giving the correct catholic position and gets uprating for it. I actually answer the request in a way that seems to be very complete, as almost every serious comment to that write up could be answered with just a quoting of the write up [excpet the one from dodo, that can only be answered with the scientific findings that the BBC claimed the pope distorted, but didn't]. Despite that, this mostly informative write up doesn't get more than one uprating.

The main reason for the difference between the official theology and that what is often spread around in religious communities, are 'local' traditions. And there we come to your points:

that the Church orchestrates campaigns from the Vatican

No it doesn't. If Obama says, he would like to have more NATO troops in Afghanistan, it is very likely that Amerophil people here will react in some way on it. No reasonable person would say in that case Obama or the USA orchastrates a campaign from Washington. It is just your paranoia that makes you saying something like that. Local traditions play a big role.

And in the comment before you say:

No, there is nothing said about precise arguments because the point is to unleash the legions of the faithful to make lots of noise. Now the lack of precise arguments will provide you with plausible deniability as when you say
But he is not the pope. [...] what is so amazing to find a bishop to believe some nonsense?

What you say isn't true. It is not even plausible. It is no fun to steadily debunk non-sense. After some early attempts, I have mostly refrained from commenting on issues, that are subject to extreme ideological bias here on ET. But I thought correcting just factually unambigous false statements might be relatively harmless.
Nobody else than me has actually contributed something useful. Afew's translation says essentially what I said before from memory, unless you believe that first, the humanisation of sexuality, ie a human and spiritual renewal which involves a new way of behaving towards one another, does NOT include fidelity. If you don't understand that kind of language, than why aren't you simply trusting me? But actually for somebody who really is interested in the truth, it doesn't seem to me, to be controversial. For sure the Lancet believes it means what I believe it means. And so does the BBC.

If really the 'world press' believes, that if the pope says, what he has said, might make people believe, that the actual use of a condom during a sexual act may increase the risk of AIDs, then they are the irresponible ones, because they write in a way, that their readers don't understand at all, what was said originally.

Afew can say things like

But the Pope's message (unless you show me conclusively that he said something else) was against the use of the condom and indeed that condom use aggravated the problem. That tends to denigrate the condom in the eyes of the entire population, not just those who will adopt abstinence/fidelity.

He doesn't give the slightest reason, why people who don't believe in abstinence/fidelity would take the pope's words as denigration of condoms and don't use them. Why aren't they either following the norms, the catholic church tells, or not. But taking some life threatening half approach?

The ridiculous high standards on every claim, that isn't in line with main stream opinion at ET and the nearly non-existing standards on claims in line with ET main stream opinion have driven The3dcolumn away. I can live with that.

That I don't get only non-sense and insulting comments not only from one person, but from several, that I have to sacrifice much of my day to answer really just rubbish, isn't acceptable. That my believe is important to me, should have kept you somewhat on a reasonable path, as I usually refrain from commenting on that issue. But the total lack of decency really disappoints me. On previous flamewars, where I had no pony, I tried to help. Because this community has meant something to me in the last year, and I didn't want, that people are angry with each other. I'm afraid, that what I feel isn't important for you or any of the other commentators on this thread.
So you won't mind, if I never again comment again.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Sat Mar 28th, 2009 at 01:07:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Martin:
So you won't mind, if I never again comment again.

Well, Martin, I would mind and miss your comments. Even though I did not always agree with you, I found that I learnt from your comments. It is my fault for not  rating your comments more often, to show you that there are people who read your comments with interest. I am sure there are more people than just me who appreciated your contributions and hope that you continue commenting.

by Fran on Sat Mar 28th, 2009 at 02:38:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What ridiculously high standards? You claimed the world press had distorted the Pope's words, I asked you then to quote those words with a source. Finally Migeru found the source from the Vatican, and I found and translated the original French. And admitted that the media had greatly simplified.

Where are you being held to ridiculously high standards in this? On the contrary, it is we (whom you claim guilty of groupthink) who work to apply standards and accept them ourselves.

As for whether I supply reasons for what I say about denigrating condoms, you could easily have asked me to provide them. (When you started this subthread with the assertion that the Pope was 100% right, did you provide reasons?). I have asked you if you'll do a diary on this subject so it can be properly discussed, I'm not running from discussion.

As for the rest, yes, people with conservative views here are in the minority. Yet in this case, I was bending over backwards to help you find the exact source of what you claimed had been distorted. And that's not enough for you. Pity. I'd be very sorry if you didn't comment here any more.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Mar 28th, 2009 at 02:56:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is very clearly an accusation of hypocrasy. And it is about me.

No. For me it is pretty clear that Colman is about the Church: a claim of hypocrisy in acting differently when the audience is "middle class Ireland" and when the audience is Africans.

Again attacking me [I'm as much the catholic church as the pope, and I'm sure the pope would agree].

That you take attacks on the Church personally is a barrier you impose on debate on it, do you realise?

I hope we can get back to a normal debate from being personal. And I echo Fran: your comments are appreciated here, even from a majority of posters who have very different views from yours -- including me. So I do mind if you never again comment here.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Mar 28th, 2009 at 05:42:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Source of a longer statement of the pope was FAS print. I have it at home, not here. As well as direct quote, but longer.

But since you say it's just an "opinion"... You mean Catholics are free to use contraceptive methods other than the "rhythm" method?

I think my above comment explains the official position. You can be sure, that Sister Johannis would not teach contraception, if it was a against an official doctrine. She is not afraid of saying unpopular things.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 12:32:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ya-huh. Weird that the Church bothered opposing allowing the sale of condoms in Ireland and such things though, isn't it? Or that they were perfectly happy to allow people to think it was forbidden.

Catholic legalism  - doctrine, dogma, dogfood, whatever - is used to give the Church cover from its more ludicrous positions when they become socially untenable in the local market.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 12:37:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The dogmas and doctrines are changed very very rarely. You can't imagine, that there are positions, that are more certain, and less certain? That there are fundamental values, and norms, that are derived from those values given a set of circumstances, that actually may change over time, changing as well the conclusions? And of course these circumstances include existing cultural elements, and philosophy.
Giving tangible advice on how to conduct ones live necessarily includes advice subject to change from new information, scientifically, social, or philosophical.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers
by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 01:04:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is a Catholicism for theologicians, and there is one for common people. You are talking of the former, Colman is talking about the latter...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 03:42:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Afew:
First of all, can you point to a clear source for what you say the Pope said?
Martin:
Source of a longer statement of the pope was FAS print. I have it at home, not here. As well as direct quote, but longer.
I believe the current brouhaha is the result of the following INTERVIEW OF THE HOLY FATHER BENEDICT XVI
DURING THE FLIGHT TO AFRICA
(Tuesday, 17 March 2009)
Q. - Now a further question from a French speaker: our colleague Philippe Visseyrias from France 2:

Q. - Your Holiness, among the many ills that beset Africa, one of the most pressing is the spread of Aids. The position of the Catholic Church on the way to fight it is often considered unrealistic and ineffective. Will you address this theme during the journey? Holy Father, would you be able to respond in French to this question?

A. - I would say the opposite. I think that the most efficient, most truly present player in the fight against Aids is the Catholic Church herself, with her movements and her various organizations. I think of the Sant'Egidio community that does so much, visibly and also behind the scenes, in the struggle against Aids, I think of the Camillians, and so much more besides, I think of all the Sisters who take care of the sick. I would say that this problem of Aids cannot be overcome merely with money, necessary though it is. If there is no human dimension, if Africans do not help [by responsible behaviour], the problem cannot be overcome by the distribution of prophylactics: on the contrary, they increase it. The solution must have two elements: firstly, bringing out the human dimension of sexuality, that is to say a spiritual and human renewal that would bring with it a new way of behaving towards others, and secondly, true friendship offered above all to those who are suffering, a willingness to make sacrifices and to practise self-denial, to be alongside the suffering. And so these are the factors that help and that lead to real progress: our twofold effort to renew humanity inwardly, to give spiritual and human strength for proper conduct towards our bodies and those of others, and this capacity to suffer with those who are suffering, to remain present in situations of trial. It seems to me that this is the proper response, and the Church does this, thereby offering an enormous and important contribution. We thank all who do so.



Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 04:19:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The original French version is out here and there on Internet:

Le Pape, la capote et les "moutons".... | AgoraVox The Pope, the condom and the "sheep ".... | AgoraVox
Philippe Visseyrias, France 2 : Saint-Père, parmi les nombreux maux dont souffre l'Afrique, il y a en particulier la propagation du sida. La position de l'Eglise catholique sur les moyens de lutter contre le sida est souvent considérée irréaliste et inefficace. Allez-vous aborder ce thème durant votre voyage ?Philippe Visseyrias, France 2: Holy Father, one of the many ills Africa suffers from is the spread of AIDS. The position of the Catholic Church on ways to fight against AIDS is often considered to irrealistic and inefficient. Will you address this theme during your trip?
Benoît XVI : Je dirais le contraire. Je pense que l'entité la plus efficace, la plus présente sur le front de la lutte contre le sida est justement l'Eglise catholique, avec ses mouvements, avec ses réalités diverses. Je pense à la communauté de Sant'Egidio qui fait tellement, de manière visible et aussi invisible, pour la lutte contre le sida, je pense aux Camilliens, à toutes les soeurs qui sont au service des malades... Je dirais que l'on ne peut vaincre ce problème du sida uniquement avec des slogans publicitaires. S'il n'y a pas l'âme, si les Africains ne s'aident pas, on ne peut résoudre ce fléau en distribuant des préservatifs : au contraire, cela risque d'augmenter le problème. On ne peut trouver la solution que dans un double engagement : le premier, une humanisation de la sexualité, c'est à dire un renouveau spirituel et humain qui implique une nouvelle façon de se comporter l'un envers l'autre, et le second, une amitié vraie, surtout envers ceux qui souffrent, la disponibilité à être avec les malades, au prix aussi de sacrifices et de renoncements personnels. Ce sont ces facteurs qui aident et qui portent des progrès visibles. Autrement dit, notre double effort pour renouveler l'homme intérieurement, donner une force spirituelle et humaine pour un comportement juste à l'égard de son propre corps et de celui de l'autre, et notre capacité à souffrir, à rester présent dans les situations d'épreuve avec les malades. Il me semble que c'est la réponse juste, l'Eglise agit ainsi et offre par là même une contribution très grande et très importante. Remercions tous ceux qui le font. "Benedict XVI: I would say the opposite. I think the most effective entity, the most active in the fight against AIDS is precisely the Catholic Church, with its movements, with its various realities. I'm thinking of the community of Sant'Egidio, that does so much, in visible and invisible ways, in the fight against AIDS, I'm thinking of the Camillians, of all the nuns who serve the sick ... I would say that we can't overcome the problem of AIDS only with advertising slogans. If there is no soul, if Africans do not help themselves, we cannot solve this problem by handing out condoms : on the contrary, there is a risk this may increase the problem. We can only find the solution in a dual commitment: first, the humanisation of sexuality, ie a human and spiritual renewal which involves a new way of behaving towards one another, and the second, a true friendship, especially to those who suffer, the willingness to be with the sick, at the cost of personal sacrifice and renunciation. It is these factors that help and which bear visible progress. In other words, our dual effort to renew the inner man, to give spiritual and human power for fair behaviour towards one's own body and that of the other, and our capacity to suffer, to be present in the patients' trials. It seems to me that this is the right answer, the Church acts in this way and thereby makes a very large and important contribution. Let us thank all those who do this."

I have tried to translate as fairly as possible.

The Pope certainly said much more than was generally reported. Yet what does he say? I see three things: people need to live their sexuality in a more "human" way (which will involve respect of one's body and those of others); distributing condoms will not solve the problem and risk making it worse; there is a mystic operation for the good through believers' sacrifice and devotion to the sick.

I won't say any more now. This probably calls for a diary. Martin, if you can refrain from calling people idiots and clueless, do you want to defend these words of the Pope?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:08:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You don't have to translate it, the Vatican does it for us
Interview of the Holy Father during the flight to Africa (March 17, 2009)

[English, French, German, Italian, Portuguese, Spanish]



Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:19:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What I posted is the official English translation from the Vatican.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:19:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I should trust the Vatican?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:22:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, that would be the authoritative English version of what he said, wouldn't it?

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:23:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Once I learned he was answering a French journalist, apparently in French, I went in search of the original version, as far as possible.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:42:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, in this case, no. From the Lancet editorial:

...On his first visit to Africa, the Pope told journalists that the continent's fight against the disease is a problem that "cannot be overcome by the distribution of condoms: on the contrary, they increase it".

...Amidst the fury, even the Vatican tried to alter the pontiff's wording. On the Holy See's website, the Vatican's head of media, Father Federico Lombari, quoted the Pope as having said that there was a "risk that condoms...might increase the problem".

Whether the Pope's error was due to ignorance or a deliberate attempt to manipulate science to support Catholic ideology is unclear. But the comment still stands and the Vatican's attempts to tweak the Pope's words, further tampering with the truth, is not the way forward.....

Based on what afew found, the Lancet is clearly in error in accusing the Vatican of tweaking the Pope's words. They should have checked first. (And, eh, to do so, maybe they should have realised that the whole world doesn't speak English...)

While I don't accept Martin's defense of the Church as proof of innocence in limiting access to contraceptives (that comment about one Catholicism for theologicians and another for the people meant to imply that the clergy is very well content with an over-interpretation of its words by common people), he is right that the Pope's words have been mis-interpreted. Then again, while the Lancet didn't bother to find and check the French original, the Vatican's attempts to put out a more precise translation were rather poorly executed...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Mar 28th, 2009 at 05:34:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Based on what afew found, the Lancet is clearly in error in accusing the Vatican of tweaking the Pope's words.

Actually, see here

The Vatican transcript doesn't say cela risque d'augmenter le problème but ils augmentent le problème. So no risk there, it is a sure thing that condoms make things worse. And also, the first bit as quoted by Afew is si les Africains ne s'aident pas (if Africans don't help themselves) whereas the Vatican transcript says "si les Africains n'aident pas" (if Africans don't help) and then this is "corrected" by adding a clarification which the Pope didn't utter [en engageant leur responsabilité personnelle] (by engaging their personal responsibility). Because what the pope does say is easily construed as patronising (if not worse)


Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 28th, 2009 at 07:53:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wrong links - see here.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:55:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Pope certainly said much more than was generally reported.

And also much less. This

If there is no soul, if Africans do not help themselves, we cannot solve this problem by handing out condoms : on the contrary, there is a risk this may increase the problem.
is all he has to say about condoms in the entire collection of speeches from his trip, and even the word "AIDS" doesn't appear more than 8 times in the whole collection, and this brief exchange with the France 2 journalist is the only one that has to do with prevention rather than praising the charitable work that some Catholic congregation or other does on AIDS.

If the "science" has been "misrepresented" it has been in the damage-limitation since the scandal blew up.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:28:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He may mean that if people feel safe using condoms, they will conduct an even more promiscous sexual life, with even less respect for their partners.

Then again, the Pope's words are sufficiently vague that they can be interpreted in many ways -- including, in the spirit of pseudoscientific and conspiracy theorist claims spreading among arch-conservatives (high failure rate of condoms, AIDS not caused by HIV and similar idiocy).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Mar 28th, 2009 at 05:51:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the translation. I guess Benedict was asked the same question in different languages, and gave roughly the same answer several times.

My original comment covers the critical points [fidelity as most efficient tool; risk, that advertising condoms makes things worse]; the first two of your summarisation. I don't guess the last point is a reason for major controversion.

As nobody had a reasonable issue with my original reply, I don't see, what I should add. I reply in an extra comment on if you can refrain from calling people idiots and clueless

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:35:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, he was asked the question exactly once by a French journalist and the Vatican has posted translations into six languages.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:37:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok, but the French version [the original] contains the word risk.

So there is this from BBC:

One of the world's most prestigious medical journals, the Lancet, has accused Pope Benedict XVI of distorting science in his remarks on condom use.

If he would have distorted science, I still would believe, that he didn't do it deliberately. But I seriously can't see any distortion of science.

and this:

It said the Pope's recent comments that condoms exacerbated the problem of HIV/Aids were wildly inaccurate and could have devastating consequences.

where the reality is, that nobody knows what political/UN or papal action really changes a society from suffering under epidemic AIDs to societies that don't suffer from that problem, when dealing with real people in Africa.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 06:12:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok, but the French version [the original] contains the word risk.
You will note that the French version quoted by Afew says
S'il n'y a pas l'âme, si les Africains ne s'aident pas, on ne peut résoudre ce fléau en distribuant des préservatifs : au contraire, cela risque d'augmenter le problème.
but the Vatican's transcript has edited it in this manner
Si on n'y met pas l'âme, si les Africains n'aident pas [en engageant leur responsabilité personnelle], on ne peut pas résoudre ce fléau par la distribution de préservatifs: au contraire, ils augmentent le problème.
The Vatican transcript doesn't say cela risque d'augmenter le problème but ils augmentent le problème. So no risk there, it is a sure thing that condoms make things worse. And also, the first bit as quoted by Afew is si les Africains ne s'aident pas (if Africans don't help themselves) whereas the Vatican transcript says "si les Africains n'aident pas" (if Africans don't help) and then this is "corrected" by adding a clarification which the Pope didn't utter [en engageant leur responsabilité personnelle] (by engaging their personal responsibility). Because what the pope does say is easily construed as patronising (if not worse)
If he would have distorted science, I still would believe, that he didn't do it deliberately.
Ratzinger suffers from a serious case of Foot-in-Mouth disease. Every time he says something the entire Vatican apparatus has to go into damage-limitation mode.

NDTV: Pope Benedict a disaster, claims report (March 20, 2009)

"The Pope is isolated and fails to adequately consult his advisers," said a Vatican source with 20 years' knowledge of the Holy See.

Another Vatican insider has described Pope Benedict's four-year-old papacy as "a disaster". "He's out of touch with the real world. On the condom issue, for example, there are priests and bishops in Africa who accept that condoms are a key part of the fight against Aids.

"And, yet the pope adheres to this very conservative line they encourage promiscuity. The Vatican is far removed from the reality on the ground," the insider said.



Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 28th, 2009 at 07:51:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He spoke in French and so there you have the original version (with my translation into English).

He doesn't mention fidelity, Martin. He does say condoms risk increasing the problem. And the last point, for me, is most certainly controversial.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:51:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He doesn't use the word fidelity. But he says:

first, the humanisation of sexuality, ie a human and spiritual renewal which involves a new way of behaving towards one another,

How would you interprete that, given the background of catholic sexual teachings?

And YOU have translated:
on the contrary, there is a risk this may increase the problem.

And well, there are plausible mechanisms how this may happen. The advertising campaigns may treaten the humanisation of sexuality, by propagating promiscuity along with the condoms. He doesn't have a proof, neither is there a proof, that this doesn't happen.

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 06:43:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Martin:
How would you interprete that, given the background of catholic sexual teachings?

You mean in theory, or in practice?

Paedophile priests would be a cheap shot here, but it seems to me that the best way to promote positive relationships would be to act them, not preach about them.

As for propagating promiscuity - what's wrong with promiscuity, if it's accompanied by safe condom use?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 07:32:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As for propagating promiscuity - what's wrong with promiscuity, if it's accompanied by safe condom use?

I'm pretty sure, that it is very difficult to make people always using condoms. The reason, why AIDs is epidemic in Africa, but not e.g. in Western Europe, is the lack of sufficient promiscuity in Western Europe - not the increased use of condoms. There is scientific evidence by James Chin for that claim. For genuine contraception use, the pill is very wide spread here.

Well, there are some issues with promiscuity, but I don't want to proselytise you. But if other people think different than you, I guess you shouldn't have a problem with that, either. Everybody according to his own pleasure. Why aren't non-catholics not simply ignoring the pope. They are ignoring him, when he says reasonable useful things, but get furious when he tells something they think is nonsense. I can understand when catholics, that fight for a different church do that, but why non-catholics?

but it seems to me that the best way to promote positive relationships would be to act them, not preach about them.

There is some use of preaching them as well, but of course you are right that acting is more powerful (for both good and bad behaviour). And on a statistical basis I'm pretty sure, that we catholics as well do act them, at least more so, then the rest of the population. My personal expirience is pretty krass on that one. The above statistic, that a high share of catholics in the society reduces the risk of AIDs in southern Africa, maybe seen as a hint, despite it is difficult to measure 'quality' of relationship on a statistical basis. Of course catholics in Africa may just use much more often condoms, but what is the Lancet then complaining anyhow? If the pope has significant influence, it should be with the catholics. If the recommandation to protect against AIDs by the pope would be regularly to shower in strawberry-caramel creme-sauce, and catholics would end up with less AIDs infection, why then is the saying of the pope a problem?

Der Amerikaner ist die Orchidee unter den Menschen
Volker Pispers

by Martin (weiser.mensch(at)googlemail.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 08:31:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The reason, why AIDs is epidemic in Africa, but not e.g. in Western Europe, is the lack of sufficient promiscuity in Western Europe - not the increased use of condoms. There is scientific evidence by James Chin for that claim.

Is there? Was it not just a baseless claim from him? Running counter to scientific evidence?

BBC NEWS | Health | Westerners 'are more promiscuous'

People in western countries tend to have more sexual partners than those in the developing world, a study says.

Monogamy is dominant across the world, but multiple partners are more common in rich countries, according to the study published in the Lancet.

This was despite developing countries having higher rates of sexually transmitted infections and HIV.

London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine researchers gathered data from 59 countries for the study.

They said factors such as poverty and mobility had more of a role in sexually transmitted infections than promiscuity had.

...However, those reporting multiple partners were much higher in developed countries - up to a third of under 25s in some areas - whereas only a small percentage in Africa reported the same.

And among singletons, westerners were more sexually active as well.

Two thirds of men and women without a partner in African countries reported they had had sex recently, compared to three quarters of those in developed countries.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Mar 28th, 2009 at 06:02:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I should add that the main AIDS epidemic factor in Africa involving promiscuity is, according to what I read, the prevalence of migrant workers. Europe has a lower rate in this, but our prime examples of workers who are away from family for long, truckers and soldiers, are known as prime 'customers' of rampant prostitution, especially its most exploitative segments (human-trafficked girls in parking lots and war zone brothels).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Mar 28th, 2009 at 06:13:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why aren't non-catholics not simply ignoring the pope.

Because, even if not for the whole of Germany or for Lower Saxony (though Baden-Württenberg, I wouldn't swear on it), the Catholic Church still acts like state religion in many countries. This includes a number of European states (Ireland, Poland, Italy), and many African and Latin American states.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Mar 28th, 2009 at 06:06:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why aren't non-catholics not simply ignoring the pope.

What is this, the 1200's?  Why does anyone still listen to the Pope?

the Catholic Church still acts like state religion in many countries.

So blame it on the Church.  ALL religions are a bunch of worthless charlatans, essentially salesmen, out to screw you over so IMHO, if you are stupid/cowardly enough to believe their crap, you get what you deserve.

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Sat Mar 28th, 2009 at 06:19:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you are citizen of a state with a de-facto or even official state religion, it will have influence over you even if you don't believe. (For example, via abortion laws; Exhibit A: Chile.) Which was my point.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Mar 28th, 2009 at 06:41:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you have an "official state religion", maybe that's telling the citizens that there's something seriously wrong with their political structure, and for the good of their descendants, they should make some necessary sacrifices to change things.  Oh, that's right.  Sacrifices are for someone else.  Let me sit on my fat rear-end and enjoy the "good life".  Who cares if things are screwed up because of "an official state religion".

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Sat Mar 28th, 2009 at 08:14:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Martin:
But if other people think different than you, I guess you shouldn't have a problem with that, either. Everybody according to his own pleasure.

I have a problem with that if it kills people. Which it does.

Martin:

Of course catholics in Africa may just use much more often condoms, but what is the Lancet then complaining anyhow?

Because more people could always be saved if they followed reality rather than dogma.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Mar 28th, 2009 at 10:20:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How would you interprete that, given the background of catholic sexual teachings?

In other words, the Pope is speaking in code for Catholics and has to be "interpreted".

I really think you should write a diary about this.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Mar 28th, 2009 at 02:39:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
KLATSCH
by Fran on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 04:24:09 PM EST
I did not believe my father when he told me this story.  I still can't believe it:

Mars Climate Orbiter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Mars Climate Orbiter (formerly the Mars Surveyor '98 Orbiter) was one of two spacecraft in the Mars Surveyor '98 program, the other being the Mars Polar Lander (formerly the Mars Surveyor '98 Lander). <...>

The Mars Climate Orbiter was intended to enter orbit at an altitude of 140-150 km above Mars. However, a navigation error caused the spacecraft to reach as low as 57 km. The spacecraft was destroyed by atmospheric stresses and friction at this low altitude. The navigation error arose because a NASA subcontractor (Lockheed Martin) used Imperial units (pound-seconds) instead of the metric system.

<...>

The metric/imperial mixup

The metric/imperial mixup which destroyed the craft was caused by a software error back on Earth. The thrusters on the spacecraft which were intended to control its rate of rotation, were controlled by a computer which underestimated the effect of the thrusters by a factor of 4.45. This is the ratio between a pound force - the standard unit of force in the imperial system - and a newton, the standard unit in the metric system. The software was working in pounds force, while the spacecraft expected figures in newtons; 1 pound force equals approximately 4.45 newtons.

The software had been adapted from use on the earlier Mars Climate Orbiter, and was not adequately tested before launch. The navigation data provided by this software was also not cross-checked while in flight. The Mars Climate Orbiter thus drifted off course during its voyage and entered a much lower orbit than planned, and was destroyed by atmospheric friction.



Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 07:20:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 07:45:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But, as we know, it would be impossible for the US to adopt the metric system.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 10:44:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The metric system is for wusses who are too lazy to memorize the 64 times table.

:-þ

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Mar 26th, 2009 at 11:41:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
All US industries who export are accustomed to use the metric system.

When I was working in Africa and the Middle-East for an American trucks and mining equipment manufacturer, we used both systems.

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 02:35:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Same thing in the semiconductors industry: 20 years ago I saw both metric and "anglo" measurements, like the .01" pitch for IC packages.

From the early 90's the whole industry moved to metric within a couple of years and has been ever since.

So did NASA, by the way, but not some of its subcontractors apparently...

by Bernard (bernard) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 08:52:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Even using the metric system doesn't always prevent mistakes of this sort: there is the bridge over the Rhein at Laufenburg, connecting Germany and Switzerland. The problem is that sea level in Switzerland is 27cm lower than sea level in Germany - and the engineer added instead of subtracting....
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 03:35:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You have to love the concept of the Swiss sea level - but then it is probably useful to the Swiss Navy.

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 04:48:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ha! This is something for land-locked countries to be aware of.

When establishing a second geodetic network for Hungary in 1948-64, geographers switched from a zero level on the shore of the Adriatic Sea to one on the shore of the Baltic Sea: a difference of 67.47cm. This was big enough for every non-causal map-reader to be aware of it, because the rounded-to-the-metre height of most mountains varied between older and newer maps by 1. (You can observe a similar trend on maps of the Austrian Alps, too.) And now, with the construction of yet another, all-European network, the zero level will be the North Sea at Amsterdam: 14cm below the Baltic one.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 04:56:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Excellent!  My father will be delighted: this was another story he recently told me.

In this case, if either the Swiss or the Germans had been using feet/inches instead of meters/cm, the discrepancy, being much larger, might have been caught sooner.  Ergo, it's good for some countries to coninue using the imperial system!  :-P

I kid, of course.

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 07:51:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
if either the Swiss or the Germans had been using feet/inches instead of meters/cm, the discrepancy, being much larger

In meters vs. feet, it would be larger. In centimeters vs. inches, it is smaller...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 07:56:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In Europe, at least in astronomer and science-geek circles, this is a well-known standard example of stereotypes like 'American incompetence'.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:33:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And the "we forgot to update the program with the fact the new rocket was going, huh, faster" Ariane 5 crash is a sign of European incompetence ?

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Fri Mar 27th, 2009 at 05:41:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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