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A New Dark Ages!??

by ARGeezer Tue Apr 7th, 2009 at 04:17:11 AM EST

What Feteke forecasts, (pdf) takes a position that can only be described as Ursa Major Maximus!  Alarmist is a significant understatement of what Antal E. Fekete of
Gold Standard University Live describes.

Tom thinks that I am an alarmist in believing that the permanent closing of the gold window at the Comex will mean a cessation in gold mining, loss of segregated metal deposits, and institutionalized theft of ETF holdings.

To answer this I have to go back to the collapse of the Western Roman Empire after the abdication of the emperor Romulus Augustus on September 4, 476 A.D. It was followed by the Dark Ages when the rule of law, personal security, trade of goods against payment in gold and silver could no longer be taken for granted. Gold and silver went into hiding, never to re-emerge during the lifetime of the original holders. It is plausible to see a causal relationship between the fading of the rule of law and the complete disappearance of gold and silver from trade. Virtually all observers say that the first event caused the second.

I may be in a minority of one to say that causation goes in the opposite direction. The disappearance of gold and silver coins as a means of exchange was a long-drawn-out, cumulative event. In the end, no one was willing to exchange gold and silver coins for the debased coinage of the empire. At that point the empire was bankrupt; it could no longer pay the troops that defended its boundaries against the barbarians threatening with invasion. This is not to say that the empire did not have other weaknesses. It did, plenty of it. But the overriding weakness was the monetary weakness. Centuries after centuries the Mint of the empire could attract less and less gold and silver. Because of this, the empire was forced to debase its coinage and the deterioration continued until the bitter end, when the gold flow to the Mint completely dried up.

Compare this with the Eastern Roman Empire that lasted until the fall of Constantinople to the Ottoman Turks in 1453 A.D., or almost one thousand years longer than the Western half, and during most of this time it could keep its Mint open to gold, producing the gold bezant, which also became the coin of the Muslim world. Is this difference between the two empires trying to tell us something about the importance, from the point of view of political and economic survival, of keeping the Mint open to gold?

Interesting gold bug discussion - afew


Fekete's desire to reverse the roles of physical security and monetary security in the decline of the Roman Empire in the West are at least consistent with his assessment of the ultimate value of gold, but I cannot agree with his judgment.  It ignores the disruption of normal business activity in the western empire by repeated "barbarian" incursions and occupations, including Alaric's sack of Rome itself.  Why should gold flow to a mint in Rome under such circumstances?  So that it could more easily be found by armed invaders?

Fear that any gold found would be taken from one by those stronger and more numerous combined with Gresham's law seem better explanations for the withdrawal of gold and silver.  The descent into the "Dark Ages" was mostly a phenomenon due to the collapse of literacy.  This period is "dark" because historians have so few written accounts and records of the time.  Gold, silver and rich estates themselves were increasingly in the hands of new owners who were not accustomed to doing business in writing, and the wealthy were the only ones who could afford written documents.  The length of the "Dark Ages," from a western European perspective, can be better understood as being related to the time required to complete a massive demographic transition involving integrating the populations and traditions of the old Roman Empire with the entire population of, at the very least, all of the Germanic tribes from the north.

Today literacy is almost universal in the "developed" world and production of written documents is quite affordable.  While I will not argue that, as far as its effects on our ability to conduct democratic collective governance, we have largely created a new society of literate ignoramuses, collective knowledge is always best utilized by only a few in society and that knowledge is unlikely to be lost to the extent it was during "The Dark Ages."  Part of that knowledge consists of understandings of alternatives to a single fixed standard of value and knowledge of economic modes of operation that are sustainable.

While I am loathe to disappoint fans of Mad Max and admirers of the Post Apacalyptic Barbarian Scenario everwhere, I believe that, faced with the Abyss, we can either pull back or climb out in a much shorter time than previously.

Hope springs eternal in the human breast.
Man n'er is but is always to be blest. --Alexander Pope  

Display:
I'm sorry, but I don't think it's an accident that every example the gold bugs come up with predates serious fiat money.

Things can go very wrong and lead to wars and worse, but countries have multiple times junked an old paper currency and started with a new one.

Also, to reprise my comment from another thread:

Metatone:

I'd also point out that there is no reason to allow "gold to go into hiding." Governments have tanks and infantry divisions. Rich individuals have a pile of gold. I'm sure they can be persuaded to store said gold in the national bank for the duration of the emergency.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Apr 3rd, 2009 at 03:58:47 PM EST
Agreed. On the title page of the pdf he puts the following: "Gold Standard University Live."  I have seen other such "Universities" whose primary objective seems to be to encourage the reader to engage in trading of one form or another.  This started as a comment on Luis's diary, as that was where I saw the link to Feteke, but when I saw the length of the comment I thought it might better serve as a diary.

It is good times for such advice mongers.  Jim Cramer, one of the original "go go" stock touts on MSNBC, just yesterday proclaimed the "end of the depression!"  Time to get back into stocks.  I have a similar high opinion of his advice.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Apr 3rd, 2009 at 05:20:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
countries have multiple times junked an old paper currency and started with a new one

They have also multiple times junked a metal-standard coinage for a new one.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Apr 4th, 2009 at 04:01:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm sorry, but I don't think it's an accident that every example the gold bugs come up with predates serious fiat money.

That's not true.  The gold bugs point to the price of gold since we all dropped the peg.  If you bought in 1933, you made a whopping 50% real gain.  And it only took you 75 years.

It's just that they ignore the fact that, adjusted for inflation, gold is a really shitty investment.  If you'd bought the Dow at the same time, you would made five times that.

That's when they retreat to babbling about the Mad Max scenario.

The Mad Max scenario is moronic.  Even supposing they could get their hands on the gold they own claims to, what are they going to do -- eat it?  (You could also say to them, when they say they own gold, "No, you don't own shit.  You own a little piece of paper.")

If you really believe in the Mad Max scenario, you'd be infinitely better off putting your money in land, seeds, manual farming equipment (unless you can get hold of some oil), canned food, and arms.

Because in the Mad Max scenario, if all you've got is a claim on gold, you're just some dumbass holding a piece of paper.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Apr 4th, 2009 at 09:20:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Drew J Jones:
That's not true.  The gold bugs point to the price of gold since we all dropped the peg.  If you bought in 1933, you made a whopping 50% real gain.  And it only took you 75 years.

I meant about "gold and Mad Max" (e.g. in this case - the fall of the Roman Empire).

I refuse to engage with the silliness (theirs, not yours) that equates "investment value" with "good basis for a currency" - that is to fundamentally misunderstand what we use currency for.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Sat Apr 4th, 2009 at 09:50:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the Mad Max predictions are way overrated.

Ultimately, the way to survive tough times is cooperation. Your best survival chance is to live in a rather moral community, lucky enough or able enough to avoid inside and outside hostilities.

Most of the Mad Maxes will foolishly perish. Most of the survivors will be cooperators without serious penny wise pound stupid intentions.

The rich and "governments" will cooperate nicely, thanks  a lot. But very likely they will amplify Mad Max fears into inter-tribal tensions and some "human sacrifice" of war rituals. The hell will be in places of special interest to "dominant" players, as always. Other than that, people would mostly try to survive together.

by das monde on Mon Apr 6th, 2009 at 02:51:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
AW, no barbarian apocalypse?  And here I was, hoarding hair product and pants, which according to the visual design of the Road Warrior will be some of the most in-demand personal accessories in the dark future of man, where there is only war.
by Zwackus on Fri Apr 3rd, 2009 at 08:57:22 PM EST
How well did the barbarians do without a Roman-strong rule of law? They still had societies, before and after the empire, right?

Other provocative question: What is the difference between barbarians ruining the Roman empire, and the Romans leveling conquested cultures to the ground?

by das monde on Mon Apr 6th, 2009 at 02:31:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Point of view.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Mon Apr 6th, 2009 at 03:40:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And it is instructive to see who has whose point of view over time.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Apr 6th, 2009 at 10:57:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Visigoths had been roman mercennaries for long enough that, when they settled in Hispania after sacking rome, they had little trouble taking over the Roman province and establishing themselves as a ruling warrior caste with little disruption of the local society.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 6th, 2009 at 07:47:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's pretty much true of all the barbarians of the "great invasions" - the Franks, Goths, Vandals, etc... were bands of warriors that had gathered as Roman auxilliaries and at time foes and then formed people. When the Huns tried to invade Gaul, they were pushed back by an alliance of the Franks and the Roman aristocracy...

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Mon Apr 6th, 2009 at 08:54:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, and would you be so kind as to explain what exactly he means by the closing of the gold window at Comex?  Is that some sort of commodities trading thing, and is it actually being closed anytime soon, or is that some raving fantasy?
by Zwackus on Fri Apr 3rd, 2009 at 08:58:45 PM EST
He is talking about the situation if gold became so tightly held that no-one would be in a position to deliver it in accordance with the terms of a COMEX gold futures contract.

He believes that this would be the end of the financial system as we know it, since in his view, it is gold alone that has true value, and the COMEX contract is the last remaining link to this reality.

Total bollocks.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri Apr 3rd, 2009 at 09:33:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Stuff and nonsense.

The collapse of the Roman Empire was one thing.  The economic activity of the "Dark Ages" another.  The major connection between the two was the latter followed the former in the time stream.

The solidus was the basic gold coin of the late Roman Empire.  You could buy yourself one Roman soldier, for one year, for around 27 solidi.  So, rounding, 1 solidus equaled about two weeks of pay.  Imagine what would happen if you wandered down to your local fruit stand, grabbed an apple, and offered to pay with a $2,000 bill.  Now imagine what would happen if you and a couple of friends wandered by, all grabbed apples, and all offered $2,000 bills.  No way would the owner be able to give you chance right?

Right.

So the owner of the apple gives it away, refuses to sell it to you, or you give the fruit monger $2,000 for the apple.

Gold coinage disappeared from daily circulation in the late Roman Empire because they were pointless.  They were so valuable you could hardly buy anything with them.  If you needed some flour you might be able to buy a flour mill but not a couple of kilos to bake your morning bread.

As the economy in the Western Roman Empire localized the need for large transactions evaporated.  That's why gold and the larger silver denarius coins disappear.  Either they were buried or, more likely, they were remelted into coins you could actually use to actually buy stuff.  

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Apr 3rd, 2009 at 11:39:52 PM EST
Interestingly, according to the definition of one of the founders of the Neo-Classical Economics "School", J. B. Clark, the "Dark Ages" would have been a veritable bee hive of economic activity! (See the last blockquote in the diary.)
Clark points out that wealth is created "from the mere appropriation of limited natural gifts .."and that repelling intruders "is almost the only form of labor which exists in the most primitive social state" (p.10). The atmosphere as a whole, showers or breezes, "minister transiently to whomsoever they will, and, in the long run, with impartiality". Therefore they are not wealth. Those who appropriate them create wealth by so doing. The essential attribute of wealth is "appropriability," to create which "the rights of property must be recognized and enforced Whoever makes, interprets, or enforces law produces wealth". He gives to commodities "the essential wealth-constituting attribute of appropriability". He goes on in that vein: those who seize land and exclude others thereby produce its value; George, who would untax capital, is guilty of ignoring its productive action.

So, Chris Cook, I call your "Total bollocks" and raise you with a "Total bollocks squared!"  We Americans must truly be a mongrel race of cretans to have let such a hilarious economic philosophy dominate our public life for more than a century.  Or will someone rise to J. B. Clark's defense?

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Apr 4th, 2009 at 12:33:20 AM EST
Perhaps we need a new genre: Economic theory as comedy.  But the joke is on us.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Apr 4th, 2009 at 12:39:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
All comedy is essentially 'a joke on us'. Comedy is the oscillation between two or more matrices that cannot be made to 'logically' fit together in the mind of the beholder.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Apr 4th, 2009 at 07:03:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sometimes it's funny too.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Apr 4th, 2009 at 09:05:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, that's just anecdotal evidence ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Sat Apr 4th, 2009 at 09:39:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The essential attribute of wealth is "appropriability," to create which "the rights of property must be recognized and enforced Whoever makes, interprets, or enforces law produces wealth"

So "wealth" is created by not-sharing, or Enclosure?

Or in other words, property is theft?  :-)

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Sat Apr 4th, 2009 at 01:45:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I believe you are a fan of Hernando de Soto?

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Apr 4th, 2009 at 03:58:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think I am - as far as I can understand what he writes... Came across him when reading "The Shackled Continent" where he's introduced rather favourably.
by Nomad (Bjinse) on Sun Apr 5th, 2009 at 05:20:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think I was snarking... De mentioned her less than favourable reaction to a book claiming that the way out of 3rd world poverty was for poor people who own their houses to get mortgages on them. I suspect the book in question is The Mystery of Capital: Why Capitalism Triumphs in the West and Fails Everywhere Else but I am not sure.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 6th, 2009 at 07:44:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Most poor people in Africa don't own their house...
by Nomad (Bjinse) on Mon Apr 6th, 2009 at 09:24:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The argument, roughly, is this
Indeed, if one adds up the estimated value of real estate held by "the poor" in these countries, the total value comes to something in the neighborhood of $9.3 billion. The only problem is that most of this wealth is not in the form of legal titles to property; instead, these are "informal" ownerships not recognized or enforced by the political authorities in these parts of the world.

...

The heart of de Soto's argument is that under this informal system, a vast amount of private wealth exists as "dead capital." Without legal title to real property -- residential homes, retail businesses, factories, apartment buildings -- the informal owners are unable to tap into either the national or global financial markets. Normal loans or lines of credit with real property as the collateral are difficult to acquire.



Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 6th, 2009 at 09:28:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So we can bitch and moan about the inequalities and pitfalls of the current (debt-based) financial system or try to make it more fair, most poor people don't even have access to neither the system nor to mortgages despite informal wealth.

Hence the argument (brough up in De's comment in the diary you linked to) doesn't hold whatsoever (and I have my doubt that it is De Soto's). Many poor people don't own their homes at all. There are no available property rights to the "informal wealth" that enable people taking mortgages. We don't know if people would like to take mortgages - they generally can't.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Mon Apr 6th, 2009 at 10:31:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
While a home held by traditional tenure and not recognized by more recent legal systems might be considered "dead capital" it still provides shelter and the likelihood that it will continue to do so is higher if it remains "dead" than if the owner is granted a legal title AND THEN obtains a mortgage.  Granting everyone titles to a former commons interspersed with cottages has usually been a prelude to the great majority of those titles falling into the hands of a few individuals who then enclose that commons to the detriment of the previous occupants.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Apr 8th, 2009 at 01:23:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Seems to me that he throws over all "social contract" theories and bases Neo-Classical Economics squarely on "Might Makes Right."  Given the size, political organization, (including unrestricted immigration), and wealth of the USA, even in 1888, at least his choice of founding principle was feasible for at least 100 years.  Mason Gaffney, one of whose professional specialties is land use and land taxation, notes that Clark is still the foundation for US tax policy on land.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Apr 4th, 2009 at 11:28:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ARGeezer:
Seems to me that he throws over all "social contract" theories and bases Neo-Classical Economics squarely on "Might Makes Right."

I.e. Theft is property.

Is anyone really surprised that this is what NCE boils down to?

We're already in a Mad Max scenario. It's not the roving bands of big-haired people in leather we should be frightened of - the academic economists and think tanks are far more dangerous, and far less sane.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Apr 7th, 2009 at 06:05:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The amusing thing is that when you sync this up with the thread Nomad and Migeru are having you get the clarity that some people have realised (De Soto?) you can't have a market economics when most people have nothing.

Thus, one guy's proposal is that the first step for development in the 3rd world is to go around defining property ownership, so some people have something.

Then the NCE game can start, the purpose of which is to go from this starting state (where we distributed things to people to get things moving) to funnelling all the wealth back to a small minority. i.e. Essentially back to the point where we were before we distributed some property rights around.

<head -> desk>

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Tue Apr 7th, 2009 at 06:47:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Except that the people who had rights no longer have them, and the people who used to be outsiders now have the rights - over the informal property, as-was, and also over the people, through debt slavery.

So it's all very neat, efficient and economically praise-worthy.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Apr 7th, 2009 at 07:37:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Many of the various tribes, or nations, occupying the pre-Colombian Americas had established governing councils, an area of land over which they claimed exclusive rights, defended from others and sometimes sought to expand and generally fulfilled the definition of "nation" as applied to the German peoples by the Romans, if not the later definition of "nation-state."  They had two serious deficiencies with respect to the Europeans: a late stone age level of technology and immune systems that were relatively much more vulnerable to infectious agents largely arising from domestication of animals.

Europeans arrived, imposed their version of written law, dismissed preexisting law and custom, though often retaining place names, and proceeded to delegitimate native American society and appropriate
their land, either forcing cultural assimilation and effective slavery on their victims or exterminating them and expropriating their land.  It was might makes right, cultural and religious arrogance or both.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Apr 7th, 2009 at 10:32:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Please allow me to express my incredulity that Prof. J. B. Clark was not locked-up in a rubber room surrounded by soft fluffy toys to play with.


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Sat Apr 4th, 2009 at 01:48:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Or are you referring to a mongrel race of logicians?

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Apr 4th, 2009 at 03:55:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
...As some commentators pointed out.
Amusingly, sort of, the real fall of the Roman empire, PARS ORIENTALIS, was in 1204 CE. When the Franks, in a fit of sudden fury, vanquished it completely. The Franks used argent (silver).

I have lots on Roman history in my various sites, under the overwhelming thesis that the empire was, like the USA, undermined by plutocracy.

Patrice Ayme
http://patriceayme.wordpress.com/

Patrice Ayme Patriceayme.com Patriceayme.wordpress.com http://tyranosopher.blogspot.com/

by Patrice Ayme on Sat Apr 4th, 2009 at 02:31:53 AM EST
Michael Hudson uses the Roman example to illustrate historical (and mathematical) debt dynamics in his article The Financial War Against Iceland
Two thousand years ago Rome stripped Asia Minor and other provinces and colonies of money using military force. Its financial oligarchy then translated their economic power into political power, destroying democracy and bringing on centuries of Dark Ages. The historical lesson is that economies taken over by creditors are plunged into depression as predatory lending strips away the surplus, leaving nothing remaining for subsistence, let alone capital renewal. This prevents nations from paying their debts, leading to widespread foreclosure, an extreme polarization of property and wealth, and impoverishment of its people. The ensuing lack of prosperity ends up crippling the ability to sustain a military overhead, and such countries tend to be conquered, as the Goths overran Rome. Outsiders always were at the gates - but it was the hollowing out of Rome's domestic economy that left it prone to conquest.
by das monde on Mon Apr 6th, 2009 at 08:20:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for writing this.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Apr 4th, 2009 at 04:39:47 AM EST
I inherited a small silver mine claim in the Colorado mountains, and am hoping that the price of precious metals will eventually rise to the point where I can retire from stuff dug out of the ground. However, it is a slight hope!

But the chance of moving into a new Dark Age is I think a serious worry. The fact that everybody can read now isn't the point, because they have to understand what they read. With the loss of the established media, the recent enthusiasm for a superstition-based ("faith based") government, and massive overpopulation, we face the same issues that Europe faced in 500 CE...

by asdf on Sat Apr 4th, 2009 at 09:45:59 AM EST
I too am concerned about a new collapse of civilization.  I am particularly concerned that in agriculture we will transition neither sufficiently quickly nor efficiently from our current petroleum based process to a sustainable process to preclude world famine.  I am concerned that climate change will result in rapid melting of polar ice caps in a non-linear, catastrophic manner that will drown coastal cities and pollute the oceans and fisheries.  I am concerned that rapid climate change might outstrip the ability of the temperate biosphere to adapt, resulting a massive loss of biomass and dust storms that could make the US plains in the '30s seem attractive in comparison.

From an ecological perspective the only benefit from all of this would be a drastic reduction in the human population, whose activities would have so markedly driven the transformation.  Of these possibilities we have, perhaps, the greatest certainty about the direction of climate change and sea levels, if not the speed.  Serious consequences of those scales from those factors could appear anywhere from the next few years to the next few centuries.

But regardless of the extent, if any human population remains, our natural fecundity can relatively quickly overwhelm whatever new stability might emerge, absent the wisdom and will to keep our numbers and our impact under careful control.  In this regard our current religions and their attitudes towards human reproduction are mostly part of the problem.    

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Apr 4th, 2009 at 12:00:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Into this nice cheery little vignette, let me add another sunny note:

Don't forget the massive destruction of edible plant species as we move toward  extreme efficiency and uniformity in our food supply. The elimination of seeds, simplification of farming (think potato famine), patenting of seeds, new specialized plants (entire N. America crop of canola is now effectively gm due to wind polinisation), specialized plants with external chemical switches, represents a major threat of famine through out the world, as well as unknown health consequences of eating these new specialized crops.

aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Sat Apr 4th, 2009 at 04:28:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Two things. First, you forgot the [ARGeezer's Crystal Ball of Doom™ Technology]

Second, I believe that the predictions are that it is likely that the ability of temperate plants to migrate as the climatic zones change will be exceeded. That's what happened after the last ice retreated--it took a long time for the trees to catch up.
http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/technical-papers/climate-changes-biodiversity-en.pdf

by asdf on Sat Apr 4th, 2009 at 09:10:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On point 1, mea culpa, mea culpa!  In my defense, I am not sure how to get the shade of purple you show, which actually originated at my request.  Oh, The Shame!

On point 2, it is always better to have the original document at hand rather than to have to rely on memory.  However, the cited report is dated 2002 and predicts less than a one meter rise in sea levels by 2100.  In the light of what I have read since then, I think this is unlikely on the low end and that we will be lucky if we avoid a 7 meter rise.

Recent findings raise concern that the East Antarctic Ice Sheet is moving faster than previously thought.  Were it to go, we would be looking at possible 70 meter increases in sea levels.  Colorado and the Ozarks will still be well above sea level, but the beach would be significantly closer and I don't have any idea how that would affect rainfall patterns, which were not expected to seriously impact the northern two thirds of the continental USA in the IPCC report of 2002.

In short, it could be bad, but I prefer to concentrate on the financial crisis, as proper resolution of that problem will facilitate mitigation of the rate of climate change.
 

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Apr 5th, 2009 at 12:13:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
((doom ARGeezer)) ==> [ARGeezer's Crystal Ball of Doom™ Technology]
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Sun Apr 5th, 2009 at 09:21:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks.  I tried it on preview and it worked!  I am now less ET HTML impaired than before by one item!  Old dogs and new tricks.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Apr 5th, 2009 at 01:12:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The fact that everybody can read now isn't the point, because they have to understand what they read. With the loss of the established media, the recent enthusiasm for a superstition-based ("faith based") government, and massive overpopulation, we face the same issues that Europe faced in 500 CE...
Surely even in a "democracy" the majority do not need to understand what they read for the society to function.  this is especially true for maters relating to the organization of that society and economy. Else ours would never have functioned.  The point I was trying to make regarded the degree to which real knowledge was effectively lost in Western Europe during the "Dark Ages."  Compare the number and extent of libraries of any sort during the time of the Roman Empire to the situation today.  There is such a vastly larger number of books and they are found in such a variety of forms that the knowledge contained therein is likely to be accessible to those who have need in future generations so long as there are future generations.  In Western Europe after 500 C. E. there remained only a small subset of what was known in antiquity until the Middle Ages, when additional knowledge came to be available via the Muslim world.  It is true that that knowledge remained available in the Eastern Roman, or Byzantine, Empire until 1453, and even after that, under the Turks, but knowledge of Greek was not wide spread in the west and that knowledge was contained in manuscript form.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Apr 5th, 2009 at 12:39:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, maybe. Most books are trash. Useful books are not that common. In a city the size of London, you can find tens of millions of novels, but probably only a few hundred copies of a book about permaculture. Books about farming or practical science and engineering will be even harder to find.

It's not libraries that keep civilisation running, it's the universities around them. Teaching useful stuff, no matter how ineptly, is far more useful than having big piles of mouldy printed wood pulp.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Apr 7th, 2009 at 06:14:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Useful books are not that common.
Agreed.  But useful books printed on low acid paper, such as encyclopedias and technical handbooks are far more numerous per capita than were similar manuscripts anywhere in the world prior to the Chinese invention of printing.  I paid $100 ~25 years ago for a set of the Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th Ed. and the bindings remain intact and all pages remain supple and readable.

Significantly more useful information is contained in any one of most current, individual encyclopedias than was available to all of western Europe from 600 C.E. to 1000 C.E.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Apr 8th, 2009 at 01:36:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is questionable how much of the modern books would last, because of the quality of paper and ink used. If the civilization is to collapse, who will take care of libraries and book stores? For example, numerous local libraries in the Eastern Europe passed out quietly.

And durability of digital information is even more questionable. The best way to preserve digital information for ages is probably perforated cards or tapes, as I commented here.

What about using durable books (or some perforated or whatever information carriers) as currency? Be it trash, unwanted or unappreciated information, some book-bank-cards could be an interesting way to keep economy going and preserve knowledge at the same time. Wouldn't it be fun if blog discussions of today were sporadically available as "entertainable" readable currency in boring dark ages?

by das monde on Wed Apr 8th, 2009 at 12:13:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
People have a hard time dealing with the concept of money. On the one side we have those who think that certain thinks have an inherent "value", and since gold was always one of these things, they assume that it is special.

On the other side we have those who talk about "fiat" money, by which I take it they mean worthless.

In fact we no longer understand money. Money gets created outside of the government all the time, especially by commercial transactions like credit card purchases. One of the reasons for the current collapse is that the banks created "money" in the form of credit default swaps and other derivatives. The regulatory bodies didn't even recognize that this was a new form of money, hence the lack of oversight.

What we have now is a system based solely on trust. Last time I tried to explain this I was accused of being a nihilist!

If the counter party you are dealing with has faith that you will be good for the money, property or other assets they are lending you than the transaction will take place, if not, not. If the trust gets lost then the market collapses.

Right now the trust has been lost in the banking sector and the governments are trying to paper over this fact by hiding the "value" of the newly created money.

After the hyperinflation in Germany in 1923 the government issued new Marks based upon wheat. At least you could eat the stuff, unlike gold. Gold bugs still don't understand, but luckily for them there are enough others like them around to keep this market going.

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Sat Apr 4th, 2009 at 03:30:42 PM EST
rdf:
In fact we no longer understand money.

I don't think that there has ever been much understanding of money. The assumptions used seem to be based upon ideology, rather than any connection with reality.

I think John Law hit the nail on the head in 1705

Money is not the value for which goods are exchanged but the value by which they are exchanged

But what is value?...."money's worth" IMHO

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sat Apr 4th, 2009 at 06:18:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The role of money is what we make it to be. Currently, money is the measure of your status and everything else, hence we seek money, respect money and do anything for money, whatever money actually is. Without money we won't even dare to exchange anything!

It is obvious that bankers are the ones most profiting from the concept of money. We heard of Rockerfellers, Rothschilds, Morgans making huge money a century ago. But how did they actually do it, and what they ever did since then? Where are they on the Forbes list? Do they know what is actually happening, or about to happen? If money is given so much power, what is within money makers' capabilities?

by das monde on Mon Apr 6th, 2009 at 01:59:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, there ARE existing barter systems such as BX, "Business Exchange," in the USA.  Goods and services can be exchanged on the basis of money's worth, even if it is by reference to a "worth" no longer reflected in the cash or check economy. It would be a convention accepted by the participants.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Apr 8th, 2009 at 01:02:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Gold Fixing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Gold Fixing (also known as the London Gold Fixing or Gold Fix) is the procedure by which the price of gold is set on the London market by the five members of the London Gold Pool. It is designed to fix a price for settling contracts between members of the London bullion market, but informally the Gold Fixing provides a recognized rate that is used as a benchmark for pricing the majority of gold products and derivatives throughout the world's markets. The Gold Fixing is conducted twice a day by telephone, at 10:30 GMT and 15:00 GMT.

The first fixing took place on 12 September 1919 amongst the five principal gold bullion traders and refiners of the day: N M Rothschild & Sons, Mocatta & Goldsmid, Pixley & Abell, Samuel Montagu & Co. and Sharps Wilkins. The gold price then was four pounds 18 shillings and ninepence (GBP 4.9375) per troy ounce.

Due to wartime emergencies and government controls, the London Gold Fixing was suspended between 1939 and 1954.

Gold prices are fixed in United States dollars (USD), Pound sterling (GBP) and European euros (EUR).

On 21 January 1980 the Gold Fixing reached the price of $850, a figure not overtaken until 3 January 2008 when a new record of $865.35 per troy ounce was set in the a.m. Fixing. However, when indexed for inflation, the 1980 high would equate to a price of $2398.21 in 2007 dollars, thus the 1980 record still holds in real terms.

The Fixing historically took place twice daily at the City offices of N M Rothschild & Sons in St Swithin's Lane, but since 5 May 2004 it takes place by telephone. In April 2004 N M Rothschild & Sons announced that it planned to withdraw from gold trading and from the London Gold Fixing. Barclays Bank took its place from 7 June 2004, and the chairmanship of the meeting, formerly held permanently by Rothschilds, now rotates annually.

A tradition of the London Gold Fixing was that participants could raise a small Union Flag on their desk to pause proceedings. Under the telephone fixing system, participants can register a pause by saying the word "flag", and the chair ends the meeting with the phrase "There are no flags, and we're fixed".

The current five participants in the Fixing, who must be members of the London Bullion Market Association, are:

Does this mean that the price of gold is set not by free markets but by a privileged group of bankers? It is now easy to come across consparoid articles "revealing" that the Rothschilds are in control of the gold price for 200 years (since Nathan R. profited from the speculation on the Waterloo battle??)

Anyway, what does the fixing ritual actually do? Does is reflect the market "most effectively", or is it used to steer the market instead? Shouldn't this kind of procedure be more widely known, without everyday abuse of common assumptions?

by das monde on Mon Apr 6th, 2009 at 01:45:24 AM EST
That was one of the more baffling aspects I came across the past two years - at a set time, a group of people convene to set the gold price, which is the price you will see quoted in the news bulletins that evening.

I have no idea by what parameters the gold price is set.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Mon Apr 6th, 2009 at 06:33:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is like LIBOR, which is set by asking 16 banks what their borrowing costs are.

That something as basic as the spot price of gold is still set "over the counter" beggars belief.

Most economists teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless. -- James K. Galbraith

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Apr 6th, 2009 at 06:36:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What do you think the stock exchange is doing ?

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Mon Apr 6th, 2009 at 08:52:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In fact, I think that the gold fixing - and the not dissimilar London Metal Exchange

are perhaps the most efficient and straight markets in the world today.

For most of the trading day, the LBMA and LME markets proceed on "Peer to Peer" or bilateral "off-exchange" basis where the above "fixers" and LME "ring dealers" make markets in bullion and metal respectively to their "end-user" and secondary dealer market counterparties.

Members transact within the legal framework of LBMA and LME rules, and indeed even non-Members typically deal bilaterally on "LBMA terms" or "LME Terms" - in particular incorporating arbitration by those markets' skilled panels of arbitrators.

The prices at which members deal in "forward" bullion and metal contracs are based upon the daily "spot" price which is discovered at the "Fix" on LBMA (there is a similar LPPM fix for platinum and palladium) or second daily "Ring" (LME) respectively.

The Fix is not as sinister as the name implies!

It is an agency/broking process (although members will have their own positions to consider) whereby the five members sit around a table and are in telephone contact with their offices, and through them their leading clients/counterparties (many of whom will have given them orders, but some like to participate live).

The Chair suggests an initial price, and through an iterative auction process a price is discovered at which the most "spot" bullion will be transacted that day.

So if @ $800 per oz, 10,000 ounces would be transacted; @ $801 it would be 10,100 ounces, and @ $802 it would only be 9,900 ounces then that day's Fix would be set at $801.00.

The LME Ring is a 5 minute session of open outcry which can become perhaps the global market's greatest game of "chicken", when everyone keeps shtum til the last 30 seconds when all hell is let loose, since it is the price (usaully an ad hoc average) at the end of the Ring which is the settlement price for the day.

My personal view is that there is no better and more efficient market process available, which is why it evolved organically to this form.

The US markets are IMHO complete dens of iniquity in comparison.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Apr 6th, 2009 at 08:38:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do they just make an arithmetic calculation and choose the price with the highest volume? Or do the 5 members have competing or colluding objectives? Is there a video of that fun somewhere?

Can they influence a gold rush?

by das monde on Mon Apr 6th, 2009 at 09:19:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If it were purely an agency process then the calculation would be arithmetic.

Firstly, the bullion Fix process is iterative, so clients/counterparties may in fact change their bid or offer as it progresses (maybe by adding size, eg I'll pay $810 for 100 oz, but at $800 I'll buy 1000 oz).

Secondly, the dealer will have his own "book" and therefore will be bidding or offering for his own account as well, and that, again, is a dynamic process.

The LME Ring is more complex in that transactions are made in the Five minute Rings (and off them, on the phone) for "Spot" (that day) metal and "3 Month Forward" metal.

This is a rolling process, as prompt dates change.
Ring dealers have a "card" which they must manage, which may be for eg copper: + 25 lots, 8th April; - 10 lots, 12th April; + 5 lots, 21st April, -25 lots 8th July; and so on. One lot being 25 tonnes of copper in an LME accredited warehouse.

I reckon the top LME ring dealers are probably the best traders in the world in terms of mental agility and speed of decision making.

They will lend and borrow metal day to day (just like overnight money markets) and big players can and will attempt to "squeeze" particular delivery dates.

IMHO it's the best and most efficient market there is, and the most integrated with the "real world".

It wasn't designed the way it is: it evolved that way, and it has been under attack by the financial players for the last 25 years.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Tue Apr 7th, 2009 at 06:38:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you, Chris, for the explanations.

How much of metal trade is concentrated in a few hands? If most of the volume is narrowly controlled, it probably does not matter much whether the trade is free or arranged.

by das monde on Tue Apr 7th, 2009 at 11:52:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The big players are actually the big producers and consumers, and those guys are definitely consenting adults.

The problems arise when - as with the Sumitomo copper scandal or the Tin Crisis when these mega consumers and producers respectively ceased to use the market for its intended purpose of hedging prices (ie securing price by buying or selling forward), and instead used it to manipulate prices on a grand scale.

The middlemen in the LME markets tend to be the service provider tail to the "end user" (I think I need quotes there, honest!) industry dog.

Of course, the financial sector have been trying to take over the markets in the same way that they have stolen the oil market pricing mechanism. That danger appears - after about 20 years attrition - now to have passed.

In the bullion market, the manipulation is done by the Central Banks (or maybe it is the Illuminati), hand in glove with the major dealers as their agents. ie the bullion primary dealers are the fleas on the Central Bank dog.

The platinum and palladium market is different, and it's not a million miles from the De Beers diamond monopoly, being (maybe it's changed - I haven't kept in touch) pretty much owned and controlled by the duopoly of Engelhard Metals, and Johnson Matthey.

Mind you, this de facto duopoly have always been very careful to act responsibly and have never killed the goose that laid the platinum egg.  It would probably have been different with a US owned monopoly, but there seems to be a sort of precious metals Mutually Assured Destruction.



"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Apr 8th, 2009 at 06:03:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As far I understood it last year, De Beers is not the only company producing diamonds (that is, mining) but it does still have a world monopoly on distribution. One cannot bring a diamond on the market if it isn't sold through De Beers.
by Nomad (Bjinse) on Wed Apr 8th, 2009 at 09:14:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That is not true for artificial diamonds.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Apr 8th, 2009 at 01:12:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I hesitate to post this as critique about the way someone writes can lead to self-doubt when expressing on-self in certain forums. I think you have something very interesting to say, but the way you write obscures the message. With that said I realise I have a certain way of reading your posts when you write about markets.

Step 1: remove quote-marks around terms that are not quotes at all.

Step 2: Find where you introduce terms (LBMA?) and google them.

Step 3: Re-arrange the information so that the most concrete parts (the once that has the least of step 1 and 2) comes first. This makes the rest easier to understand.

Here, for your entertainment and hopefully illumination of someone, would be the result of the post above (changes marked by []-brackets):

In fact, I think that the gold fixing [at London Bullion Market Association (LBMA)] - and the not dissimilar London Metal Exchange [LME] - are perhaps the most efficient and straight markets in the world today.

The Fix is not as sinister as the name implies!

It is an agency/broking process (although members will have their own positions to consider) whereby the five members sit around a table and are in telephone contact with their offices, and through them their leading clients/counterparties (many of whom will have given them orders, but some like to participate live).

The Chair suggests an initial price, and through an iterative auction process a price is discovered at which the most spot bullion will be transacted that day.

So if @ $800 per oz, 10,000 ounces would be transacted; @ $801 it would be 10,100 ounces, and @ $802 it would only be 9,900 ounces then that day's Fix would be set at $801.00.

The LME Ring is a 5 minute session of open outcry which can become perhaps the global market's greatest game of chicken, when everyone keeps shtum til the last 30 seconds when all hell is let loose, since it is the price (usaully an ad hoc average) at the end of the Ring which is the settlement price for the day.

My personal view is that there is no better and more efficient market process available, which is why it evolved organically to this form.

The US markets are IMHO complete dens of iniquity in comparison.

For [rest] of the trading day, the LBMA and LME markets proceed on Peer to Peer or bilateral off-exchange basis where the above fixers and LME ring dealers make markets in bullion and metal respectively to their end-user and secondary dealer market counterparties.

Members transact within the legal framework of LBMA and LME rules, and indeed even non-Members typically deal bilaterally on LBMA terms or LME Terms - in particular incorporating arbitration by those markets' skilled panels of arbitrators.

The prices at which members deal in forward bullion and metal contracs are based upon the daily spot price which is discovered at the fix on LBMA (there is a similar [London Platinum and Palladium Market -] LPPM fix for platinum and palladium) or second daily ring (LME) respectively.

This is how I read it and reading it this way I think I understnad what you mean.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Apr 8th, 2009 at 03:54:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the feedback.

Firstly, I am addicted to quotes - I don't know why....!

Solveig does her best to wean me off them but when I am in a hurry they "always" (lol) get in.

Likewise, I try to remember that not everyone is as familiar with the acronyms which are second nature to me...but again, in a hurry, I sometimes forget... :-(

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Apr 8th, 2009 at 05:38:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I find the use of quotes around words or phrases to indicate an "other than usual connotation" to be standard and helpful.  They also seem appropriate to show the bounds of a phrase, as above.  To me that seems more appropriate than other-than-usual-connotation.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Apr 8th, 2009 at 01:09:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree that that practise is standard and helpful for "other than usual connotation", but terms need to be defined and explained somehow. If 4 terms in a sentence is other-then-usual you get too many dimensions in which to interpret the sentence. It is better to actually define new terms and use them.

In great part I read Chris as defining new terms. Take the sentence "markets proceed on "Peer to Peer" [...] basis". Is there a standard definition of "Peer to Peer basis for markets"? To my knowledge, no. If there is no standard definition then this is not a "other than usual connotation", it is a new term. To treat it as "other than usual connotation" is to keep it in meaning limbo.

Then we have the terms that I simply do not understand if they are meant to be interpreted in any different way then normal. What differentiates "fixers", "forward" and "spot" from fixers, forward and spot?

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Apr 9th, 2009 at 04:09:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sounds like you are asking Chris Cook to prepare a glossary, or provide a link to an existing one.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Apr 9th, 2009 at 11:13:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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