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Europe Overrun etc

by afew Sat May 9th, 2009 at 03:44:06 AM EST

Fran posted a link in the Salon yesterday to a BBC article about a survey run by Gallup and the Coexist Foundation on Muslims in Europe, particularly (though not exclusively) in Germany, Britain, and France. The survey comes in fact from The Muslim West Facts Project, an initiative in favour of peaceful coexistence and understanding between the three Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam), in which the Coexist Foundation uses data gathered for it by the Gallup World Poll. The survey, entitled The Gallup Coexist Index 2009: A Global Study of Interfaith Relations, With an in-depth analysis of Muslim integration in France, Germany, and the United Kingdom can be downloaded as a .pdf here.

My particular identity as a practising SRA* was chafed by some aspects of the survey, (more of that anon). But there's a great deal of interesting stuff in there, and it almost entirely suggests that the people running around with their hair on fire yelling about civilisation clash and the growing Muslim threat to Europe are missing the picture (as most of us here have always thought... [NB This blatant appeal to indulge in confirmation bias probably deserves Devil's Advocate™ treatment]).

But here's a nice chart to start with:

*SRA secular republican atheist


And now for a breakdown on the same question regarding France, Germany, and Britain:

However, when the question is the degree of strong identification with one's religion, the results are mitigated:

The BBC article referenced by Fran chose these data to pinpoint because of the identification with the country of residence aspect. It's interesting to note that very or extremely strong identification with one's religion stands, in the non-Muslim public of all three countries, at exactly the same level, 23%, while identification with one's country is roughly similar in Britain and France, lower in Germany (unsurprisingly, given the low esteem in which nationalism is held there). But of course the extent to which Muslims say they identify with their country is the main point: more than the rest of the population in Britain and Germany, roughly at the same level in France.

One might expect a certain amount of bias here, in that Muslims, aware of the suspicion that surrounds them since 9/11 (and the London Underground attacks of July 2005), may want to underline their loyalty to the country they live in. Here's another question:

From which it's clear that only a minority of non-Muslim people in all three countries consider that Muslims living in the country are loyal, while Muslims consider themselves loyal by very large majorities, highest in Britain. That's almost a protest vote - which can only, it seems to me, be taken as a declaration of intent to live as normal citizens of the country.

Another question that reveals a wish to live tolerantly alongside fellow-citizens of other religions (and, one hopes, of no religion), concerns the kind of neighbourhood people would want to live in (the question also cites ethnicity):

A series of questions concerns terrorism - violence, attacks on civilians - and reprobation of such acts is general among Muslims. In Britain, though, the use of violence in a noble cause gets, for some reason, a different response than when the question is attacks on civilians (89% say these cannot be justified at all):

Perceptions

There are also a number of questions about the way people perceive their life, their experience, their feelings. One (that also includes the US) is based on a subjective current assessment of one's life along with a projection into the future, on a scale called Cantrill:

Respondents who say they presently stand on step 7 or higher of the ladder and expect to stand on step 8 or higher in five years are classified as “thriving.” Those who say they currently stand on steps 0 to 4 and also expect to stand on steps 0 to 4 five years from now are classified as “suffering.” Respondents who fall neither in the “thriving” nor the “suffering” category are considered “struggling.”

The following are intriguing, (though no results are available for German Muslims), particularly because of the low readings for positive life experience given by British Muslims, while French Muslims appear to perceive their experience of daily life as positively (if not more so) as the non-Muslim population:

Has anyone an explanation or comment to offer on this?

Gallup Coexist Index

OK, it's cool to have an index and do rankings, and they haven't resisted the temptation here. I rather wish they had, because this is the bit that irritates me somewhat. The index is based on responses - a rating from 1 (strongly disagree) to 5 (strongly agree) - to five questions:

  1. I always treat people of other religious faiths with respect.
  2. Most religious faiths make a positive contribution to society.
  3. I would not object to a person of a different religious faith moving next door.
  4. People of other religions always treat me with respect.
  5. In the past year, I have learned something from someone of another religious faith.

The assumption throughout is that the respondent has a religious faith, and this is borne out by the history of the index, originally developed "to measure Americans’ attitudes toward religious faiths that are different from their own" - a rather American assumption that everyone is some kind of religion or another. OK, I know all Americans don't share it, but it's much more general than in Europe: an index framed this way probably wouldn't have seen the light of day here.

It gets worse, imo, with the interpretation of the results:

From the combination of their answers, Gallup classifies populations as:

Isolated: Isolated individuals tend not to be members of any particular faith group, but if they are, they tend to believe in the truth of their perspective above all others. They do not want to know about other religions. They also neither respect nor feel respected by those of other faiths.

Tolerant: Tolerant individuals have a “live-and-let-live” attitude toward people of other faiths, and they generally feel that they treat others of different faiths with respect. However, they are not likely to learn from or about other religions.

Integrated: Integrated individuals go beyond a “live-and-let-live” attitude and actively seek to know more about and learn from others of different religious traditions. They believe that most faiths make a positive contribution to society. Furthermore, integrated people not only feel they respect people from other faith traditions, but they also feel respected by them.

It seems clear that the scale implies value judgements: it's assumed that having religious faith is a positive value in itself. The best case is "integrated", the worst "isolated", and to get to the better groups you need to be religious or at the very least have a very positive view of the role of religion. If you have no religion, you're going to be sharing the "isolated" box with both religious bigots and probably people suffering from real cultural isolation. There are values I can relate to in the "tolerant" section, and as far as I'm concerned no more should be asked of citizens than what's written there.

But, beyond the Index, there are lots more series (including "real" integration and ethical questions) in the survey, the questions are clearly quoted, it's well worth a look.

Note: the margin of error is +/- 5%

Display:
How can it be that amongst people defined as "Muslim" (ie by a religion) only 58% feel strongly about their religion - when it is what defines them!

Or how have they defined a "Muslim"? This goes back to your last point that this is US-driven poll where secularism is seen as so fringe that it's not even considered as an option.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat May 9th, 2009 at 04:04:53 AM EST
Indeed, what is a "Muslim" in any EU country?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat May 9th, 2009 at 04:08:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
...and where is the tip jar?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat May 9th, 2009 at 04:08:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's obviously defined as "brown people who speak funny." What else could it be?

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat May 9th, 2009 at 12:59:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The methodology page (end of report) says:

Face-to-face interviews were conducted with British Muslims, aged 18 and older, during July 2008 in England, Wales, and Scotland in areas where the Muslim population was 5% or more based on the 2001 British census. Data collection resulted in 504 completed interviews. Face-to-face interviews followed random route protocols within assigned primary sampling units (PSUs) to ensure that a representative population of Muslims living in neighborhoods with at least 5% Muslim penetration was obtained.

Face-to-face interviews were conducted with French Muslims, aged 15 and older in June 2008. The total sample included 513 French Muslims in locations where the percentages of the population of immigrant background (first and second generation) are 10% or higher, using data provided by the National Institute for Statistics and Economic Studies (INSEE).

The German Muslim population was interviewed via phone using RDD, focusing on high probability responses from a database of Muslim first names and family names (sourced in linguistic origin) to increase the likelihood of reaching Muslim families in Germany.

They don't say this, but it must be assumed the respondents were willing to self-identify as Muslims, though the degree to which this was an essential element of their identity is shown in the question about strength of identification.

But the "Muslim family names" leaves me speechless.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat May 9th, 2009 at 05:09:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not to mention percentage of "Muslim penetration".
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat May 9th, 2009 at 05:11:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There was an article in Le Monde recently (sorry, cannot dig it up) by a social scientist that pointed out that "self-identification" was a tricky concept and that people would react differently if they had to define themselves as "Français, Breton, Africain" or "blanc, arabe, noir" or something else again...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat May 9th, 2009 at 06:05:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not to mention that the majority of "populations of immigrant background" in France is still today of European origin (Spain, Portugal, Italy)

And how do you tell apart North African of Muslim culture from North African Jews and from "pieds noirs"?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat May 9th, 2009 at 06:09:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
North African Jews and Pieds Noirs are not classified as "immigrants" in France insofar as they held French nationality previous to their relocation to metropolitan France.

Otherwise I quite agree. As I agree that self-identification is a sometimes delicate matter.

All the same, the pollsters are presumably following a protocol (not disclosed in the report) by which they ask predetermined questions about the respondent's religious culture. Because one is French (or living in France) does not mean one can't validly describe oneself as Muslim (or Catholic, or whatever). How much importance that attachment has is the subject of further questions.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat May 9th, 2009 at 08:01:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

North African Jews and Pieds Noirs are not classified as "immigrants" in France insofar as they held French nationality previous to their relocation to metropolitan France.

Absolutely true, but quite often they look just as "brown" or "Arab" as "Muslims", which just underlines how tricky this is.

And never mind that a large proportion of "Arabs" in France nowadays have the French nationality and, for an increasing number, were born in France.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat May 9th, 2009 at 10:33:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I know Muslims who maintain their religious affiliation as Mulims but obviously don't believe strongly enough to adhere to all practices.  Similar to secular Christians and Jews. I think there are dregrees of practice/othodoxy in every religion. BTW secularism is not a fringe element in US society by any means. How many of the 67% of Americans who claim religion plays an important part in their daily lives were Muslim? Regardless, 37% shouldn't be considered fringe.

I would also propose that the claim of religious identity should be extended to include those who express no religious affiliation, including atheists, agnostics and others, because this too is a life philosophy equal in importance to the individual as religious conviction.

To that extent the last few poll questions could be considered legitimate if the questions had been worded a little differently or the context altered slightly.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Sun May 10th, 2009 at 12:09:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's interesting that the most relious segregationists, both in the in-group and the out-group, are in Britain. A decade ago,at the start of the Bliar era, I would have guessed the opposite -- then again, pre-Burnley, maybe easy living together was only true for London and a few other places back then, too.

Another thing I noticed was that on that "thriving-struggling-suffering" diagram, GermanMuslims stand out as the only minority with a more optimistic outlook than the rest of the population.

The pride in country numbers from Germany (both of them) are just... beautiful.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat May 9th, 2009 at 04:15:38 AM EST

It's interesting that the most relious segregationists, both in the in-group and the out-group, are in Britain. A decade ago,at the start of the Bliar era, I would have guessed the opposite -- then again, pre-Burnley, maybe easy living together was only true for London and a few other places back then, too.

The UK Muslim numbers for "use of violence for a noble cause" are somewhat troubling too. Especially since that were face-to-face interviews. I´d have thought that would depress the numbers.
Although I´m not sure how representative the numbers truly are. Interviewing people only in regions where they make up 5% or more of the population?


Another thing I noticed was that on that "thriving-struggling-suffering" diagram, German Muslims stand out as the only minority with a more optimistic outlook than the rest of the population.

Maybe they haven´t yet accepted this part of German "culture". Worry always. There will be rain after sunshine. Kind of like these things. :)


The pride in country numbers from Germany (both of them) are just... beautiful.

That number surprised me. German media reported a few days ago about a new poll about "pride in my country" [Germany] and the numbers were much higher. Around two thirds of the population said yes. Guess it depends on the question asked?

by Detlef (Detlef1961_at_yahoo_dot_de) on Sat May 9th, 2009 at 02:07:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But then, isn't the UK the country whose leader proposed the use of violence to overthrow a very evil leader ?

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sun May 10th, 2009 at 09:14:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My first reading of the question was "noble cause=global war on terra", both regarding foreign leaders and torturing or gunning down suspect brown people at home. After I noticed that it was only asked of muslims, I realised it was not about the violence of the mayority community versus the minority, but about violence from the minority versus the mayority.

Silly me.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Mon May 11th, 2009 at 05:17:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The UK Muslim numbers for "use of violence for a noble cause" are somewhat troubling too.

Troubling, if you'd know what they mean. That's a particularly troubling question in its vagueness, and in being presented without the results for the non-Muslim populations.

The question is, what kind of violence andewhat noble cause are people thinking of?

One wonders how many German or French or UK residents would remember humanitarian interventions, the Allied forces in WWII, the French Revolution, or von Stauffenberg, or the US War of Independence and Civil War, when asked about use of violence for a noble cause. For British Muslims, one also wonders what could be the primary one: terrorism, resistance against Western colonialist invaders, defense of the homeland-ante (Pakistan) against a rival power (India), or one of the previous for the general population.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon May 11th, 2009 at 01:10:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree that that figure is meaningless without the figure for non-Muslim British.

You mustn't underestimate the importance of The Hitler Narrative TM  in British self perception. We had an empire, we invented concentration camps, but At Least We Stood Up To Hitler. Even now, WWII as a whole is pretty much taught as the epitome of justifiable war (even if the justification of acts like the Dresden bombing is now questioned).

Frankly, I'd choke on that question, because I struggle to see that Nazism could have been defeated and the concentration camps closed without war. Perhaps that's due to the biases of my education-but it's an education I share with British Muslims.

by Sassafras on Mon May 11th, 2009 at 03:18:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree that that figure is meaningless without the figure for non-Muslim British.

Let me insist on being more edgy: the figure is meaningless without specifics (on the noble cause and the form of violence), but it is maliciously misleading without the figure for non-Muslim British, French and German residents.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon May 11th, 2009 at 09:28:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That index is completely bunk. Already the questions are bunk, evenapart from the assumption of religiousity; as demonstrated by my answers:

1. I always treat people of other religious faiths with respect.

No. If they come proselytizing or act self-righteously, I don't. There is always at least a dwarf minority of fundies who'd elicit that treatment -- that doesn't say anything about (my own or society's) nature of coexistence in general.

2. Most religious faiths make a positive contribution to society.

My view is: no. But this doesn't prevent me from learning something from religious people or about some religious doctrine. Nor does it exclude respect for people holding these views I don't value positively.

3. I would not object to a person of a different religious faith moving next door.

Yes, I wouldn't -- except if s/he follows some loud or stinky practices that s/he won't scale back on request, or insists to proselytize me. (BTW, is this not a question that can be mis-answered?)

4. People of other religions always treat me with respect.

No. See 1.

5. In the past year, I have learned something from someone of another religious faith.

Yes. But, is the question about anything one would learn, or something from that person's religion?...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat May 9th, 2009 at 04:25:58 AM EST
You isolated you...

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buitler
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon May 11th, 2009 at 04:31:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
When I was in Washington last month I was stopped in the street by a young Arabic looking woman and her cameraman.
"Excuse me sir, would you be willing to give your opinion; we would like to know what you think of the Muslim religion." My response: " I think of the Muslim religion as I do of all other religions; The world would be a much better place without any of them."
She quickly turned away to search for another interviewee.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Sat May 9th, 2009 at 04:53:18 AM EST
Well, it's a neat answer and I can imagine the effect.

Yet, I'm not so sure of it myself. Probably religions as they are now would fit the statement.
But they have inspired major works of art, which has to be good. They did play a part in shaping the idea of humanity and in establishing some values (though the religious establishment didn't always respect them). And they do help a lot of people who would simply be too scared of the world without something to believe in.

I am aware of the major negatives of course. But some would probably find another channel to express themselves (intolerance, the quest for power of people's minds...) in their absence anyway, while some religions don't really seem to have them in spades. For instance, I don't find much to be annoyed about Laotian animism cum Buddhism -even though you wouldn't catch me believing any of it.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Sat May 9th, 2009 at 05:39:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As any overbroad and flippant statement it can't be all right. But saying it gave me great pleasure ;)

How's London?

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!

by LEP on Sat May 9th, 2009 at 06:03:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
they have inspired major works of art, which has to be good. They did play a part in shaping the idea of humanity and in establishing some values

I wouldn't automatically give credit for these.

When you have a state religion, art has no choice but to be channelled in that direction -- in a 20th century USA, you can create Star Wars or Matrix; in Middle Age Italy, you'll create the Sixtine Chapel or the Divine Comedy.

As for establishing values: are values or religions first? Aren't religious values the values of people who created them -- or who expanded, spread and established them -- or who joined them in masses, ensuring their victory over rivals?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat May 9th, 2009 at 06:53:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Exactly, religion is the codification of values.

Which tends to get problematic when the religion survives the society those values grew out of.

by Trond Ove on Sat May 9th, 2009 at 08:58:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, Bach did not only write religious music. But he seems to have been inspired by religion in quite a lot of his works. And much of what we know of past civilisations comes from what they did because of religious beliefs (admittedly, they might have been better off spending their time otherwise, although there wasn't that much to do when the Nile was high).

As for values, I'm not saying religion invented them. But it probably helped in spreading some of them.

Look, I am an atheist myself and have very little patience for religious authorities. I'm just not that sure that the world would be a much better place without ANY of the religions. Some seem to be much less  trouble than others.

Having said that, I may very well use Len's retort one day. It is so neat.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Sat May 9th, 2009 at 02:54:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But they have inspired major works of art, which has to be good

They also inspired the destruction of what may have been major works of art. It's probably impossible to tell which is more important.

by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Sat May 9th, 2009 at 09:41:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Religion can give people the motivation to adhere to an ethical code of conduct and engage in certain beneficial practices which they wouldn't do of their own accord. But they also encourage adherence to socially and personally destructive behaviours and to the faithful it is exceedingly hard to selectively adhere to codes and practices.

The reaction against the negative behavioural baggage and the metaphisical baggage has led to throwing out the baby with the bathwater, but the solution is not to go back to religion.

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buitler

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon May 11th, 2009 at 04:29:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Interestingly, muslims answer more inclined to live in a mixed environment than the general public. And, in the case of German and British muslims, 24% and 15% prefer a neighbourhood that doesn't share their ethnic and religious background.

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buitler
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon May 11th, 2009 at 03:58:45 AM EST

What's going on in Britain? The most optimistic public with the most pessimistic Muslims?

The brainless should not be in banking. — Willem Buitler

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon May 11th, 2009 at 04:01:19 AM EST


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