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Krugman and the end of the Industrial State

by Migeru Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 05:27:32 AM EST

In a throwaway blog entry last week, Krugman links to an old piece of his written in 1996 and looking 100 years ahead (or, rather, pretending to look back from 100 years later), calling it the closest I've ever come to actually writing science fiction. But it is not science-fiction if he means it in a slightly self-deprecating tone... It is a very good piece of futurism which is the basis for the setting of any good science fiction novel.

I say the piece is about the end of the industrial state by reference to J K Galbraith's description of the sociology of the industrial economy in 1950-1970 and his (reluctant) forecasts about the direction society might take after that.

If Krugman is right, my generation (born in the 1970s) is in the unfortunate position of having been raised in the frame of the "industrial state" placing a high value on, say, higher education and centered on white collar work, only to live our adult life seeing that system dismantled. By the time 2096 comes around we may have been through a transition similar to that in 1790-1820 between the old regime/preindustrial economy and liberal democracy/industrial revolution.

I have read similar predictions about a change in the character of our social and economic system within a 70-year frame by Spanish economist Santiago Niño Becerra. (No English sources, unfortunately).

promoted by Nomad


Paul Krugman: White Collars Turn Blue (NYT Magazine, 1996)

Krugman starts by setting his futurism apart from the prophets of the information economy: there won't be a paradise free of physical work:

Most important of all, the prophets of an "information economy" seem to have forgotten basic economics. When something becomes abundant, it also becomes cheap. A world awash in information will be a world in which information per se has very little market value. And in general when the economy becomes extremely good at doing something, that activity becomes less rather than more important. Late 20th-century America was supremely efficient at growing food; that was why it had hardly any farmers. Late 21st-century America is supremely efficient at processing routine information; that is why the traditional white-collar worker has virtually disappeared from the scene.
Then he goes on to identify 5 trends and their consequences:
Soaring resource prices. ...

...

Quite soon, however, it became clear that natural resources, far from becoming irrelevant, had become more crucial than ever before. In the 19th century great fortunes were made in industry; in the late 20th they were made in technology; but today's super-rich are, more often than not, those who own prime land or mineral rights.

Remember "today" is 2096. A corollary to "the super-rich own resource rights" is
The environment as property ...

...

The economic consequences of the conversion of environmental limits into property were unexpected. Once governments got serious about making people pay for the pollution and congestion they caused, the cost of environmental licenses became a major part of the cost of doing business. Today license fees account for more than 30 percent of GDP. And such fees have become the main source of government revenue; after repeated reductions, the Federal income tax was finally abolished in 2043.

If liquid fuels become expensive and so does personal travel, it is the end of suburbia:
The rebirth of the big city ...

...

Here again, there were straws in the wind. At the beginning of the 1990s, there was much speculation about which region would become the center of the burgeoning multimedia industry. Would it be Silicon Valley? Los Angeles? By 1996 the answer was clear; the winner was ... Manhattan, whose urban density favored the kind of close, face-to-face interaction that turned out to be essential. Today, of course, Manhattan boasts almost as many 200-story buildings as St. Petersburg or Bangalore.

Then comes the prediction about the value of white-collar work and a university education in a true information society
The devaluation of higher education. In the 1990s everyone believed that education was the key to economic success, for both individuals and nations. A college degree, maybe even a postgraduate degree, was essential for anyone who wanted a good job as one of those "symbolic analysts".
This is the bit that most closely recalled what Galbraith writes in The New Industrial State about the people who make up the "technostructure". For lack of better quotes, see my diary LQD: JK Galbraith and the culture wars  from  October 19th, 2008.
In recent times education has become the difference that divides. All who have educational advantage, as with the moneyed of an earlier day, are reminded of their noblesse oblige and also of the advantages of reticence. They should help those who are less fortunate; they must avoid reflectig aloud on their advantage in knowledge. But this doesn't serve to paper over the conflict. It is visible in almost any community.
There is a lot more in the book than I quoted there and I should probably dig for more apposite quotes (maybe in the comments). But let's go back to Krugman
Eventually, of course, the eroding payoff to higher education created a crisis in the education industry itself. Why should a student put herself through four years of college and several years of postgraduate work in order to acquire academic credentials with hardly any monetary value? These days jobs that require only six or twelve months of vocational training -- paranursing, carpentry, household maintenance (a profession that has taken over much of the housework that used to be done by unpaid spouses), and so on -- pay nearly as much as one can expect to earn with a master's degree, and more than one can expect to earn with a Ph.D.. And so enrollment in colleges and universities has dropped almost two-thirds since its turn-of-the-century peak. Many institutions of higher education could not survive this harsher environment. The famous universities mostly did manage to cope, but only by changing their character and reverting to an older role. Today a place like Harvard is, as it was in the 19th century, more of a social institution than a scholarly one -- a place for the children of the wealthy to refine their social graces and make friends with others of the same class.
And finally, something that is beginning to look scarily accurate - and provides the humorous punchline to Krugman's piece
The celebrity economy ...

...

Still, the celebrity economy has been hard on some people -- especially those of us with a scholarly bent. A century ago it was actually possible to make a living as a more or less pure scholar: someone like myself would probably have earned a pretty good salary as a college professor, and been able to supplement that income with textbook royalties.Today, however, teaching jobs are hard to find and pay a pittance in any case; and nobody makes money by selling books. If you want to devote yourself to scholarship, there are now only three options (the same options that were available in the 19th century, before the rise of institutionalized academic research). Like Charles Darwin, you can be born rich, and live off your inheritance. Like Alfred Wallace, the less fortunate co-discoverer of evolution, you can make your living doing something else, and pursue research as a hobby. Or, like many 19th-century scientists, you can try to cash in on scholarly reputation by going on the paid lecture circuit.

But celebrity, though more common than ever before, still does not come easily. And that is why writing this article is such an opportunity. I actually don't mind my day job in the veterinary clinic, but I have always wanted to be a full-time economist; an article like this might be just what I need to make my dream come true.

What he says about scholarship is already beginning to take form.

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Also the end of the middle class as we know it.

But nothing lasts forever and we shouldn't pretend that the world of our fathers was the way things are meant to be even though the 1960's do seem like the peak of industrial civilisation (1820-2080)...

The peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier. Carnot would have died laughing.

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 03:59:46 AM EST
I rarely take predictions about the future seriously because:

  1.  They usually rely on linear extrapolations of current conditions and reality is loaded with non-linear, even step function possibilities.

  2. They assume to know ALL of the relevant independent variables and their ranges when in fact, these variables are constantly in flux.

The universe heads in the direction of increased entropy until all that'll be left are black holes which will coalesce into one, and then this universe will "wink out" in the reverse of the Big Bang.  I'll ignore all of the trivia which will occur between now and then.

Note: Homo sapiens - wise humans.  What a joke.

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 06:40:07 AM EST
The advantage of Krugman's piece is that it was written 13 years ago so it's already possibly to see whether the trends he was identifying are solidifying or not.

In fact, it is interesting that Krugman wasn't even extrapolating current trends at the time of his writing. He was predicting resource constraints and the end of suburbia at a time when gasoline prices were low, and he was writing against the then current conventional wisdom about the information society.

So it is an interesting kind of look to the future.

The peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier. Carnot would have died laughing.

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 06:53:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As we are on the topic of predictions, I will have you note that it is now mid august...

THE Twank:

The other day I realized that the Repubs have boxed themselves in when it comes to the US economy.  If anything BAD is reported, the Dems claim that it's a result of 8 years of Bush.  If anything GOOD happens, the Dems claim it's the Obama plan working.  Heads I win, tails you lose. Cute.  And I thought, what the Repubs need to do is let things simmer down.  Let things improve somewhat and after, say, 3 - 4 months of people breathing a breath of fresh air (God, we dodged a bullet.  The worst is over.  God Bless Obama!) let the hammer fall.  How you ask?  Two methods come to mind.  The obvious: Stock Market manipulation.  Let the DOW tank from the 8000's to the 4000's.  And Two:  Hyperinflation.  Jack up the prices of food/fuel and watch all hell break loose.  And who will be blamed?  Obama, of course.  

So, my prediction.  Things settle down/get better between now and mid July, and then the fun begins.  I'll note this comment and come back to it in mid Aug. '09.

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 10:29:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
<poetry>

Oh what a wicked web we weave,
when we post comments on the internet and then some unkind soul remembers what we posted and expects a follow-up just like we said.

</poetry>

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 11:58:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
until all that'll be left are black holes which will coalesce into one

I was under the impression that the theory went on to say that the black holes would gradually lose their mass through Hawking radiation ("The Dark Era," I think it's called).

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 10:55:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It depends on whether the universe is closed and there is a big crunch (a big black hole) or open, and on the time scales involved.

The peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier. Carnot would have died laughing.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 11:22:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm confused.  Are we talking "a big crunch" or The Big CrunchTM?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 11:27:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Big Crunch™ took place in 2007/8, and the big crunch may take place billions of years into the future it at all.

And The Big Bang Theory is a popular American sitcom.

The peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier. Carnot would have died laughing.

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 11:30:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is all, of course, just a plot by Satan to convince people that Jesus doesn't exist so that he won't take them away in the Rapture.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 11:33:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He can only take away 144 thousand of them, right?

Here's an idea for a novel: an all-out war breaks out among millenial factions when they realise that there's too many of them and only 144 thousand should remain alive when the rapture happens, say, a year hence.

The peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier. Carnot would have died laughing.

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 11:35:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And Cap'n Crunch is a breakfast cereal...

--
$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
by martingale on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 04:03:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why isn't there Cap'n Bang?
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 07:02:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well there is a Cap'n Trade.
by njh on Tue Aug 18th, 2009 at 01:50:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... hence are, of course, absolutely worthless.

But of course, good futurism is not a prediction about the future, but rather the working out of a scenario. Whether the working out of the scenario is useful depends on how well worked out it is.

Indeed, if we imagine the useful impacts a futurist scenario can have, one of the best might well be warning us of the consequences of doing something or not doing something sufficiently well that we take action to prevent the scenario from taking place.

As prophecy, that would be a self-defeating failure. As futurism, it would be a signal success.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 04:56:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The economic consequences of the conversion of environmental limits into property were unexpected. Once governments got serious about making people pay for the pollution and congestion they caused, the cost of environmental licenses became a major part of the cost of doing business. Today license fees account for more than 30 percent of GDP. And such fees have become the main source of government revenue; after repeated reductions, the Federal income tax was finally abolished in 2043.

Wow. No tax on labour. And taxes collected from the commons. Krugman was a smart guy then.
Such license fees would abolish taxes on labour today. License fees on use of land and natural resources along with air (pollution).

by kjr63 on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 08:11:43 AM EST
Krugman was a smart guy then.
and it was all downhill from there, culminating in a Bank of Sweden prize.

LOL

The peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier. Carnot would have died laughing.

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 08:13:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I guess so. hehe
by kjr63 on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 08:21:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... international trade in an alternate universe where asocial beings are, for some inexplicable reason, engaged in ceaseless economic transactions ... which was the line of work including the series later in the 90's that snared the prize ... are a parallel track to his social commentary.

And, even as he seems to be perfectly happy to play the intellectual puzzle of squeezing a shred of realism from the mainstream model ... in his social commentary track, he seems to be making progress rather than falling back. Bill Mitchel argues that if Japan had followed his advice through the Lost Decade, the result would have far worse ... yet he recently has been discussing the present recession in terms very near to being in sync with modern monetary theories of models in which income flows and asset balances are both taken into account.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 05:05:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Something I've noticed about economists.

In other fields a Nobel prize is a license to criticize something about their discipline or to go 'off base' from their specialty.  It's not a determinative process but not unexpected.

In Economics the recipient of the 'Bank of Sweden Prize in the Memory of Alfred Originated to Shoulder Their Way Into Some of the Prestige of the Real Nobel Prizes©' never seems to do that, in any significant way.  But then I don't follow the careers of recipients of the 'Bank of Sweden Prize in the Memory of Alfred Originated to Shoulder Their Way Into Some of the Prestige of the Real Nobel Prizes©' in any detail so there could be examples I'm overlooking.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 12:08:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Stiglitz might be an example.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 12:49:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thereby proving my claim since the claim can now be falsified!

(Logic.  Ain't it wonderful?  :-)

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 01:04:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Such license fees account more than 30 percent of GDP today.
by kjr63 on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 08:14:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe Krugman is a secret Georgist.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 09:53:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe he doesn't know he's a Georgist - like the old man who discovered he had spent his whole life speaking in prose.

Or maybe he's saying that in a resource-constrained 21st century, democracies will become Georgist. One could maybe argue that, institutionally, Georgism was simply not compatible with the socioeconomic environment of the second half of the 20th century.

The peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier. Carnot would have died laughing.

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 11:25:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I read that line about licensing, and the first thing that popped into my head was that through the early 20th century, the United States federal government was primarily funded with tariff income.  It encouraged local production, and pushed the cost of taxation onto the wealthy, who were the primary consumers of imports.

Placed within the right context of protecting labour as well as the environment, a workable system of price equalization that allowed the cost of externalities to be calculated into the cost of a good and with the surplus going to national governments, such a system could be progressive.  It removes artificial comparative advantage. The type that comes from wage and regulatory arbitrage.  

You know, the old if you don't allow us to beat our workers and pour poison into local streams, we'll be "forced" to move abroad.  Ultimately, like it or not, I think that a workable international regime centered around the North Atlantic is going to either come into being, the walls are going to go back up, or we're going to end up with a lassiez faire international system in which there is no social state.

I've been reading a great deal of Gramsci recently, and I'm finding that much of what he has to say is deeply relevant to the modern world.  The difference is that today national industrial elites who are politically (and economically) liberal battling old feudal elites whose wealth was in the land, have been replaced by a cosmopolitan transnational capitalist class that is at war with the remnants of the old, national, industrial elites.

The transnational capitalist class likes the idea of globalization because it makes it more difficult for any one government to control them.  And by forcing so much of the economic infrastructure that affects people's lives into the private sector, they are able to remove much of the economy from democratic control by national governments into the autocracy of the global market (where one person may equal several million votes.)

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 12:42:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Placed within the right context of protecting labour as well as the environment, a workable system of price equalization that allowed the cost of externalities to be calculated into the cost of a good and with the surplus going to national governments, such a system could be progressive.  It removes artificial comparative advantage. The type that comes from wage and regulatory arbitrage.

Agreed.  The obstacle is the political will.  I have recommended simply calculating the cost of such social and environmental services for each major "emerging" nation and adding a proportionate amount as a tariff to imports.  That tariff would be rebated to the extent that the country provided the services.

I've been reading a great deal of Gramsci recently, and I'm finding that much of what he has to say is deeply relevant to the modern world.  The difference is that today national industrial elites who are politically (and economically) liberal battling old feudal elites whose wealth was in the land, have been replaced by a cosmopolitan transnational capitalist class that is at war with the remnants of the old, national, industrial elites.

A very dialectical process.  Hegel would be pleased.  I have been a fan of Gramsci ever since I read a paper summarizing some of his work back in the '90s.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 09:24:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Placed within the right context of protecting labour as well as the environment, a workable system of price equalization that allowed the cost of externalities to be calculated into the cost of a good and with the surplus going to national governments,

All incomes from land and natural resources goes to freeloaders. No labour nor private entrepreneurship involved. According to Michael Hudson these externalities are over 33% of GDP. Even by taxing only these, we would not need to collect any other taxes. However taxing landlords instead of productive labour and capital is (has been) politically impossible.

by kjr63 on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 10:50:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
More blood has been spilled over land reform than over any other political issue in the last 250 years
Throughout history, popular discontent with land-related institutions has been one of the most common factors in provoking revolutionary movements and other social upheavals. To those who labor upon the land, the landowner's privilege of appropriating a substantial portion --in some cases half or even more-- of production without making a commensurate contribution to production may seem a rank injustice. Consequently, land reform most often refers to transfer from ownership by a relatively small number of wealthy (or noble) owners with extensive land holdings (e.g. plantations, large ranches, or agribusiness plots) to individual ownership by those who work the land. Such transfer of ownership may be with or without consent or compensation; compensation may vary from token amounts to the full value of the land. The land value tax advocated by Georgists is a moderate, market-based version of land reform."


En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 10:55:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
All incomes from land and natural resources goes to freeloaders.

Do excuse me, but that's just fucking stupid, and insulting at that. I know lots of farmers, foresters, miners and so on, and let me tell you there is plenty of hard work and entrepeneurship involved. Same for fishermen, oil men and, aha, wind power financiers.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 02:39:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The owner of land that's put to profitable use will always increase rent levels to the point where it captures most of the value created by such profitable use.

Look at the rental rates for "hot" retail space in any well-known shopping area. Loook at the price fetched by natural resources rights when they are properly auctioned off by governments to the private sector instead of being given away (see the sales of 3G licenses in 2000, or sales of exploration rights in oil countries that run these in the public interest, as occasionally happens: oil majors will pay billions just for the right to drill a hole in a promising area, with no certainty of success)

In other words, most of the entrepreneurship of farmers, foresteirs, etc, will be taken away from them in the form of higher rents. It's not an insult to their entrepreneurship to say so.

By taxing rent (in its other meaning, but it's no mistake it's the same word), you would not modify economic activity one iota, but would ensure that the profit from these activities goes to the publix purse instead of to the owners of these resources - an ownership that rarely has anythign to do with entrepreneurship...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 06:01:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's the difference between the location, and the investment in the location.

Since location/land is a Commons, the Georgist principle that those who have the privilege of exclusive use of it should compensate those they exclude is pretty much unanswerable IMHO.

Private investment in the location should not be taxed on the other hand.

The same applies to intellectual property (ie the Creative Commons) as well: I would impose a levy on the gross revenues accruing from it. There are also energy Commons.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 06:29:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The "creative commons" are essentially different from the "physical commons". Remember the quip about "if we exchange apples we still have one apple each but if we exchange ideas we now have two ideas each"?

For that reason use of the physical commons normally requires exclusivity, but not so use of the creative commons.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 06:46:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A suggestion to replace GDP -> increase in collective IQ is more useful than any other form of economic growth.

Collective IQ includes the ability to make and build useful stuff. It also includes the ability to do the right thing when planning for the future.

Non-Georgist approaches don't just steal value, they also diminish collective IQ by making intelligent foresight less likely.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 07:47:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Farmers and foresters usually own their land, fields and forests. Saying that there is no labour or entrepeneurship involved is... quite an extraordinary pronouncement.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 09:43:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In France, much of the best farming land actually belongs to Credit Agricole you know...
The richest crop farmers in Beauce are renters or even plain salarymen of a bank subsidiary. These are the very same agri-biznesses that reap most of the EU subsidies.

Pierre
by Pierre on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 09:48:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's a bit different here I guess. While big companies and the state own maybe half of all the forests in the country, I don't know any farmers who don't own their own land. The only place where that'd be the I'd say would be just around where I live, because the University got lots of land in a donation from the King 300+ years ago... But even those who farm university lands usually buy it eventually. As a farner you want to own your own house and land, right? Anything else would be seen as... I don't know... communism?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 12:05:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As a farner you want to own your own house and land, right? Anything else would be seen as... I don't know... communism?

Of course, everybody should own their own house and land. But should people also own other people's houses and lands? And tax their labour and invested capital? That is what rents, according to theory, do..

by kjr63 on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 12:37:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not talking about everyone, I'm talking about farmers. Kolchoz/hacienda-culture seems completely alien to me.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 01:01:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Starvid:
As a farner you want to own your own house and land, right? Anything else would be seen as... I don't know... communism?
Ever heard of indentured farmers, journeymen, tenant farmers, and all that good stuff you get in more Southernly latitudes and Westernly longitudes? It is, in fact, the attempt to get land out of the hands of absentee landowners and into the hands of those that work the land that is usually decried as Communism.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 12:53:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There's no labour involved in bare ownership. A landlord is entirely unproductive.

But there's often an immense amount of labour involved in use.

It's the different rights and obligations that together comprise the property relationship (property is not an object) that we are talking about here.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 10:48:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Saying that there is no labour or entrepeneurship involved is... quite an extraordinary pronouncement.

... and it's exactly what I did not say!

I said that the value of that labor and entrepreneurship is largely captured by the owner of the underlying land, who can extract rent. If the farmer and forester does own the land, then (s)he can keep that value - otherwise (s)he'll have to pay out most of the value to the landowner.

I don't even understand what you're arguing about. Capturing value has very little to do with generating value (well, it needs it to happen, but nowhere does it say that it's the same people that do both...)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 04:51:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't even understand what you're arguing about.
My point was that the people who farm the land are often the same as those who own it. kj63 implied, or rather said straightforwardly, that these people are freeloaders. I don't agree with that at all.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Tue Aug 18th, 2009 at 03:48:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Starvid:
the people who farm the land are often the same as those who own it
Maybe in Sweden.

The issue is complex, though. Sharecropping

is still used in many rural poor areas today, notably in Pakistan and in India.

Although there is a perception that sharecropping was exploitative, "Evidence from around the world suggests that sharecropping is often a way for differently endowed enterprises to pool resources to mutual benefit, overcoming credit restraints and helping to manage risk." [6]

It can have more than a passing similarity to serfdom or indenture, and it has therefore been seen as an issue of land reform in contexts such as the Mexican Revolution. However, Nyambara states that Eurocentric historiographical devices like `feudalism' or `slavery' often qualified by weak prefixes like `semi-' or `quasi-' are not helpful in understanding the antecedents and functions of sharecropping in Africa. [7]

Sharecropping agreements can however be made fairly, as a form of tenant farming or sharefarming that has a variable rental payment, paid in arrears.



En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Aug 18th, 2009 at 03:55:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
Although there is a perception that sharecropping was exploitative, "Evidence from around the world suggests that sharecropping is often a way for differently endowed enterprises to pool resources to mutual benefit,

that's what help-x is like. people want to travel further, cheaper, and are willing to trade half a day's work for board and lodging in different countries, enabling them to stretch their money, and see new situations, meet new people, and learn by doing.

i have checked myself out to feel whether i feel like i'm exploiting them, because it's MY place, and i don't feel i am, because they are happy, and because i did similar things at their age, 30 years younger than i am.

seems like a win-win, the only better one being to give them a part-ownership in trade for their commitment beyond the simple relationship of manual worker.

unless we do away with ownership completely (could conceivably happen, but not much positive track record of success with this form of society, so far), then this is the next fairest solution.

it's fun too...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Aug 18th, 2009 at 05:40:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My point was that the people who farm the land are often the same as those who own it. kj63 implied, or rather said straightforwardly, that these people are freeloaders.

I did not. I was talking about rents.

by kjr63 on Tue Aug 18th, 2009 at 05:11:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree that swedish farmers mostly legally own their land, Sweden has a long and rather uncommon tradition of a large share of the land being owned by the farmers. Sweden has never been feudal in the continental sense but went from a more or less tribal structure to a centralised state. There are some discussion as to why, my favourite explanation is that the rugged terrain made sure that farmers were also hunters (thus good with bow or crossbow) and that cavalry was much less effective. Making large armies of peasants the dominant force on swedish battlefields.

Returning to present day, if the farmers have loans on the property, then they do pay rent (in the form of interest) on the land. A (smaller or bigger) portion of the land value is thus captured by someone else.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Aug 18th, 2009 at 01:19:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed, but are you arguing for the abolishment of loans for investments, one of those financial services that actually make good sense?

And additionally if we talk about loans, we are talking about something else than extracting rent from natural resources, we are talking about extracting rent from financial capital.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Tue Aug 18th, 2009 at 01:42:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am not arguing against loans in general, I am hardly arguing at all in this sub-thread. I am trying to bridge a difference in communication styles (and hopefully learn something from it).

And additionally if we talk about loans, we are talking about something else than extracting rent from natural resources, we are talking about extracting rent from financial capital.

But financial capital - as opposed to capital in the forms of machines and other means of production - is simply a relationship. As is leasing. And in both cases the person who puts in labor and real capital pays part of the produce of the land to the rentiers that allows said person to use the land.

Those rentiers would be the freeloaders in question.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Aug 18th, 2009 at 02:27:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
great synopsis, MfM.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 06:59:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
European Tribune - Krugman and the end of the Industrial State
Late 20th-century America was supremely efficient at growing food; that was why it had hardly any farmers.

No, late 20th century America was supremely efficient at enclosure and monopoly. The absence of farmers was a side-effect of economic fascism, and not because a diversity of medium-sized farms is inherently any less efficient than Big Agro.  

Likewise with intellectual activity, Big Media is reinventing itself through enclosed spaces like MySpace and YouTube, where content is crowd sourced for free and the owners of the space sharecrop it to convert it into income.

I don't think Krugma understands that markets don't just aim to dominate financial activity, but all activity. In a perfect neoliberal world it would be impossible to set policy without relying on a mainstream economic intellectual frame. In fact it would be impossible to do anything at all without assuming that frame.

So the enclosures extend into intellectual and creative work. Work which doesn't use the mainstream economic frame disappears or becomes inaccessible.

Krugman seems to think this is regrettable but accidental. I agree it's regrettable. I don't think it's accidental. I don't think there's a conspiracy, but neoliberalism is a coherent intellectual movement and it does try to influence politics, business and academia.

If it's allowed free reign, independent scientists and artists will become as rare as independent farmers.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 09:14:46 AM EST
In fact it would be impossible to do anything at all without assuming that frame.

I agree with everything but the mood and tense of the verb. I would change would be to is becoming.

Capital is the central organizing principal of our society and all things have a price, regardless of whether that price measures value in any subjectively meaningful sense.  Capital is to our social and political organization as gravity is to our physical world.  This has come to be written into the structure of our social fabric so that questioning it makes one seem crazy.  

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 10:01:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Did you read the Rushkoff piece on Edge? It uses some of the same arguments and it sends up a few people from the Wired/Edge universe, so you should get a kick out of it.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 06:48:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No I didn't.

He's using some of the same arguments I was planning to diary soon, which is interesting, I guess, because it suggests the obvious flaws are obvious enough to be significant points of weakness in the theocratic model.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 07:50:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks!

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 08:32:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What Rushkoff is saying is what I have meant when I described "reality" as a social construct.  The underlying physical reality is, of course, not a social construct even though the ways in which we organize our perception of physical reality is the product of the ongoing social construct we call Science.

But the way in which we organize our lives, derive our incomes, and understand our social relationships very definitely is an ongoing social construct and it has been constructed to the benefit of the few who could see what was happening and shape that process.  Shakespear understood this when he wrote: "Nothing is but that thinking makes it so."  Our problem is that we inhabit a reality that has been defined in terms that are invidious to the vast majority of us and most of us have been convinced that this "reality" just is.  The religious would have us believe that this is how God made the world.  We can do better.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Aug 18th, 2009 at 11:57:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't quite agree with the end of academia bit.  Sure the WWW has devalued copyright and knowledge capitalism in some spheres but it doesn't stop the need for e.g. ever greater ingenuity from extracting greater value form ever scarcer non-renewable resources.  You could have one college faculty teaching (neo-liberal) economics to millions of students worldwide - via the WWW - and the better known colleges will probably become brands/franchises teaching/certifying millions on a global scale. But as he acknowledges in his multi-media/Manhattan comment, F2F is still crucially important in many spheres of activity.

Doing futurism is fun not only because it demonstrates how wrong you can be, but also it helps you to clarify your thinking on the present

My biggest concern would be that with technoloogy/automation, labour demand continues to reduce as supply continues to grow leading to a cheapening of all labour.  Property/resource control then becomes the key to successful survival/high standard of living whist the working poor - including PhDs - get poorer and poorer...

The accumulators shall inherit the earth...

notes from no w here

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 09:56:45 AM EST
The accumulators shall inheritmisappropriate the earth...
Isn't that what they've been doing for 10 thousand years? Cue in Ishmael.
Before proceeding Ishmael lays some ground definitions for his student. He defines:
  • Takers as people often referred to as "civilized." Particularly, the culture born in an Agricultural Revolution that began about 10,000 years ago in the Near East; the culture of Ishmael's pupil.
  • Leavers as people of all other cultures; sometimes referred to as "primitive."
  • A story as an interrelation between the gods, man, and the Earth, with a beginning, middle, and end.
  • To enact is to strive to make a story come true.
*A culture as a people who are enacting a story.
We're reluctant members of a taker culture, and the well-adjusted takers will indeed take it all.

The peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier. Carnot would have died laughing.
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 11:28:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, it may not mean the end of academia as an institution/function, but

one college faculty teaching (neo-liberal) economics to millions of students worldwide - via the WWW - and the better known colleges will probably become brands/franchises teaching/certifying millions on a global scale

would more or less spell the end of academia as a career option.

The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 10:43:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Obviously, Krugman is right about the death of suburbia. But I would not be quite as assured as he appears to be of the re-emergence of New York size megalopolises as the centres of culture. Beyond the population density found in - say - Göteborg, there is little additional technical advantage in increasing density. So the actual density of the cities will more probably reflect the idiosyncracies of local tradition, taste and culture rather than some uniform standard imposed by economic necessity.

Of course he is right about the "information economy." I think the money quote is this:

But even in 1996 it should have been obvious that this was silly. First, for all the talk of an information economy, ultimately an economy must serve consumers -- and consumers don't want information, they want tangible goods.

Real stuff matters. The ability to manufacture the windmills that power your computer is more important than what goes on on the computer screen.

And the particular version of the "information economy" that he is critiquing was being pushed in no small part in order to justify a) a speculative bubble in the tech sector, and b) ever greater remuneration for professional speculators (symbol manipulators... ticker symbol manipulators would be been more appropriate).

But Krugman is probably wrong on the declining importance of education. Modern industrial production requires a reasonably educated (or, at the very least, a trained) work force. And production will still be industrial: There is nothing inherent in industrial production that prevents it from being accommodated to a full (or even over-full) world.

In this respect, it is worthwhile to note that the industrial revolution did not replace agriculture as the source of food. The industrial revolution expanded upon agriculture, and merged it to some extent with the industrial mode of production. But the result remains dependent on the availability of fertile soil, fresh water and domesticable plants and animals.

Similarly, it seems probable that any future changes in the manner of production will expand upon the industrial construct, rather than replace it wholesale. And any such descendant of the modern industrial production model will need skilled workers.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 02:17:58 PM EST
On education I would say you are both right.

As I see it, education serves two purposes today. One is to train the workforce, the other is a gate-keeper function to many higher paid positions in society. In an expanding economy it makes sense to combine these two as an organisational entity can expand more rapidly with competent staff, and there is still room for children of bosses to follow their parents (with some preferential treatment to make sure they do not fail to get into Harvard).

In a shrinking economy you will hardly have a chance at the plush positions if you do not have the right parents. Even those with the right parents will have to fight not to fall. And what is then the point of keeping some academic structure for training. What you need to know is who to know. Sure, the academic structure will still be used for soem training, but more with an eye to who studies where. One year at Harvard, one year in Beijing perhaps. Meet some people, polish of the worst ignorance.

Training is still needed for those that take orders, but I would guess that it will in general be shorter and more specific then todays college education. And more focused on subjects like engineering and medicine, less on literature and philosophy.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 02:36:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In a shrinking economy you will hardly have a chance at the plush positions if you do not have the right parents. Even those with the right parents will have to fight not to fall.

That's why we need economic growth, so that the haves and the have mores will not feel too threatened by a system with social mobility (whether it is meritocratic or by other means).

The peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier. Carnot would have died laughing.

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 02:47:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
That's why we need economic growth, so that the haves and the have mores will not feel too threatened by a system with social mobility (whether it is meritocratic or by other means).

isn't that pandering?

growth may be great, but slow and steady, paying externality bills as we go, instead of hocking the next decade's earnings due to gamblers wresting the wheel from traditional bankers.

happier to have a hundred years of 3-4% p.a. instead of the carousel of boom, bubble, bust, gunning for guaranteed 10% and betting the farm and the kids on the lottery of subprimes, ending up with homeless in tent cities, and thousands of bank-owned slimy-green-pooled residences rotting away empty.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 07:46:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
so there you are.  

To maintain an advanced society you need technical people, but in a materially shrinking society you can not afford them.  So decay is built in, and once started, builds on itself.  

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 11:59:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The conclusion doesn't follow because the premises are not necessarily true (though they are true in our culture).

First, if the greedy bastards were not in control, you could preserve a meritocratic, socially mobile structure in the face of declining real incomes.

Second, given how "growth" is defined (in terms of the money value of the goods and services exchanged) it is clear that just by shifting more and more people to providing newfangled intangible services you can continue "growth" without increasing material consumption. In fact, if we did not count the service sector as part of GDP, what would the historical GDP series look like? When did the economy stop growing?

For the second point, considering how a boom-bust cycle can lead to a GDP loss even if the initial and final states are the same in terms of activity (volume transacted and nominal prices) it is clear that you can have "growth" in a "steady state".

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 03:35:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But 'growth' is really defined - honestly - as increase in income of the Takers. GDP is only valuable as an idea because an increase in GDP will almost certainly mean an increase in income for that particular self-selected, important and special social group. And that's irrespective of what the rest of the economy is doing.

When real GDP declines, 'growth' means that the Takers must continue to increase their slice of the pie with increasingly creative economic fictions, democratic subversion, and outright semi-legal robbery.

The only way to run the economy as a steady state - which is surely not that difficult in practice, although it might take some turbulence and adjustment before it becomes possible - is to strictly limit the influence of the Takers in politics, finance and business.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 07:18:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Growth can still continue in a sustainable renewable economy, but only a peculiar kind of growth - growth due to increases in technical efficiency. And sufficient technological change to deliver a substantial amount of growth at the macroeconomic requires a disruptive wave of innovation ... which does not and, arguably, can not proceed incessantly.

Therefore, a sustainable renewable economy must be compatible with a steady state, and if we have core interlocking systems of institutions that depend for their reproduction on incessant growth, those are systems of institutions that cannot survive a transition to a sustainable renewable economy unscathed.
 

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 11:54:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Possibly equally important, the laws of nature place hard upper limits on the total resource utilisation: No amount of technical ingenuity will take your heat engine beyond Carnot efficiency, and no amount of blood, sweat and tears will permit you to deploy more copper into manufactured goods than is available on the planet.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 03:36:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
no amount of blood, sweat and tears will permit you to deploy more copper into manufactured goods than is available on the planet

The asteroid belt: the new frontier!

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 03:38:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
File under "not theoretically impossible," next to "carbon capture and storage" and "a dam across Gibraltar."

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 03:44:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It will be cheaper to get ores from asteroids at a certain point than to fully use the resource endownment on earth - or: economic recoverability is the relevant metric here on earth as well. There is a multitude of resources in the earth's crust of what we can hope to extract.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 06:40:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
GAAAH i'm listening to john beddington, the uk govt science advisor, calmly telling steven on hardtalk how we're going to rollout 35 new nuke plants and 33 carbon captured new coal plants across the planet every freaking year till 2050!

gibbering twit, i can't believe the soap he's selling

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 07:14:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You couldn't make it up, could you?

...no, wait....

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 08:10:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
i'm s'prised steven sackur didn't bust a rib laughing.

beddington is a prize A stooge.

after this hair-raising insanity, he segued smoothly into endorsing GM.

bought and sold...

renewables got barely a nod, unless they're nukies.

no i couldn't make that up, lol! reality outstripped fiction since 9-11 onwards.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 07:06:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And of course "nodule" mining at deep ocean plate boundaries.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 05:16:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jake's, your present definition of growth is not good because it is misleading, and while your statement may be true, it suggests something which is certainly false.  

Technical improvements that do not increase resourse extraction are real improvements, but they are transitions, not growth.  Once the transition is over, there is no further improvement for that technology.  No return per year can be calculated, presumed, or utilized.  

Can improvements feed on each other, and thus continue?  Maybe, but it is doubtful.  The only examples we know about--such as the West in the 19th century, were precisely cases of increasing resource use--and thus unsustainable.  

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Wed Aug 19th, 2009 at 01:04:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If the total industrial output this year is bigger than the total industrial output last year, the total industrial output has grown.

The growth will not be predictable, which plays all kinds of havoc with planning (industrial or otherwise) that presumes predictable growth, but it is most assuredly still growth.

But we're going to have to give up worshipping growth for the sake of growth anyway. A number of renewable resources can be exploited beyond the point of sustainability for a moderately long time - and as long as we worship growth for the sake of growth, this will always be a temptation.

And when growth is considered "nice to have" rather than "need to have," the need for planning in a way that relies on it will greatly diminish.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Aug 19th, 2009 at 01:16:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Technical improvements that do not increase resourse extraction are real improvements, but they are transitions, not growth.  Once the transition is over, there is no further improvement for that technology.  No return per year can be calculated, presumed, or utilized.

But technical improvements that decrease resource extraction can continue indefinitely at a constant rate.

However, maybe insisting on defining r measuring a rate for these things is nonsense. Once you convince yourself that, say, a constant rate of return on investment makes sense, then you start insisting on getting one. This way of having conceptual constructs influence the way business or speculative investment are carried out has a long, unillustrious history.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 19th, 2009 at 01:44:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But technical improvements that decrease resource extraction can continue indefinitely at a constant rate.
 

Provided that you can come up with them!  

I have never found that the creative process can be rationalized or linearized in this way.  Imitating and analogizing is almost that rational, but when you have finished with that, the transition started by the new technology is complete and stops.  

Your second paragraph is much to the point.  

The Fates are kind.

by Gaianne on Wed Aug 19th, 2009 at 02:04:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Imitating and analogizing is almost that rational, but when you have finished with that, the transition started by the new technology is complete and stops.

Economic evolution proceeds through boom/bust cycles, that seems to be the case.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 19th, 2009 at 02:46:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But you have to make education sufficiently interesting for people to consider it a worthwhile pursuit. Purely pecuniary incentives to train will only get you so far - once the difference between the remuneration of "high-skill" and "low-skill" labour becomes too stark, social unrest follows.

And social unrest is damaging to modern industrial societies in a way it never was to feudal subsistence societies. You cannot simply gun down striking mechanics or rioting plumbers, the way a nobleman of old could order a cavalry charge on uppity peasants: Peasants were easily and swiftly replaceable, qualified plumbers are not.

The scions of the oligarchs will almost certainly segregate into Oxbridge ghettos. But while that may be socially undesirable in a number of ways, I don't see any direct threat to the educational and scientific estate. Except, of course, from semi-literate billionaires who decide to attempt to kill off the educational and scientific estate without understanding that this would also crater much of industrial society in the process.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 02:53:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Except, of course, from semi-literate billionaires who decide to attempt to kill off the educational and scientific estate without understanding that this would also crater much of industrial society in the process.

I wouldn't put it past them to try - we have had 30 years of semiliterate politicians attempting to kill off one natural monopoly after another without understanding that this would crater much of the infrastructure supporting industrial society in the process.

The peak-to-trough part of the business cycle is an outlier. Carnot would have died laughing.

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 02:59:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is nothing inherent in industrial production that prevents it from being accommodated to a full (or even over-full) world.

Agreed.  Nor is there anything inherent in industrial production that prevents it from accommodating a resource scarce world.  Recycling and technological substitution will go a long way.  But, again, this will require a reset of profit expectations, as much of the low hanging fruit has been consumed and the products of industrial production will likely be relatively more expensive.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 04:04:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I use "resource-scarce world" and "full world" in a largely coterminous fashion.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 04:49:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed, a walkable cluster 1/2 mile in radius (0.8km), around an electric rail station, at urban density (eg, townhouses on top of central commercial/office/retail, surrounded by stacked townhouses), surrounded by truck gardening is a mix of urban and rural that may well offer more of the fantasy of the suburbs than the suburbs themselves have done for decades.

Of course, the flip side of infill clusters at 4x to 8x suburban sprawl density is is reversion of 3/4 to 7/8 of land from housing to truck gardening and other resource extraction (including local energy resources).

And its not necessarily the case that any of this has to actually be planned. Assume a series of waves of fuel price shocks, and fierce political fights for establishment of electric rail transport. The locations around the stations on the corridors that get finished, or near enough, will be in very high demand, and first floor / basement "garden townhouses with second/third floor "patio" townhouses stacked on top are a fairly obvious way of selling the vicinity to the transport stop to more households.

Outside the walkable zone is a "mini-suburb" of detached homes with living victory gardens ... and eventually you get to the suburban terrain that lost the fight and ended up too far from the corridor when the tipping to infill clusters hit and the market price for residence "to far away" drops below its replacement cost.

When suburban housing unsupported by transit has a market value less than its replacement cost, it becomes slum ... as when housing anywhere drops below its replacement cost ... to be converted into multiple unit housing until it falls apart and becomes a vacant. However, built as they have been in the past few decades in the US, they won't spend nearly as long in the "slumlord rent extraction" phase, since they simply aren't as sturdy as the old brownstone townhouses.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 10:01:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course the key policy tool to encourage this is a "location benefit levy" or tax on land rental values, which is used to fund the construction of the electric rail utility which gives rise to the benefit....

....so the nearer the station, the more you pay.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 05:05:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... in promoting this is allowing it. Where it is illegal, it is less likely to happen than where it is legal.

Actually, another important policy tool for making it legal in more places would be to make the Federal capital gains tax property sale roll-over provisions apply on a value per-acre basis. This would shift the current tax bias in favour of greenfield development into a bias in favour of infill development.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 11:41:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you talking about suburban zoning regulations?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 11:47:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Quite ... the model regulations that many rely on for suburban developments include set asides, height restrictions, and single-use, single residential household provisions that makes it strictly illegal to provide infill development to the density that  Jane Jacobs argues is an urban density.

Since zoning power are part of the residual powers that vest at the state level, a state could provide for a blanket easement within a certain radius of a dedicated transport corridor stop that receives state funding for multi-use development with a height envelope no lower than three stories.

There are also owner compacts in some suburbs that provide restrictions on owners over and above the legal restrictions.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 01:40:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
An easement could be sold as freedom from bureacratic rules...

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 02:03:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... are quite mute on the "infringement on liberty" represented by zoning regulations forbidding mixed use, multiple residency ... except, of course, running a propaganda mill is not free, so they focus on the freedoms that those with $m's to hand out in endowments are most concerned about.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 08:51:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Via an old post by Kevin Drum:


nd finally, a series of laws that helps explain the lack of mass transit in edge cities and why this will never change. Note that "FAR" stands for "Floor-to-Area Ratio," the ratio of the total floorspace of a building to the area of the land the building is on. It's basically a measure of population density.

  • The level of density at which automobile congestion starts becoming noticeable in edge city: 0.25 FAR.

  • The level of density at which it is necessary to construct parking garages instead of parking lots because you have run out of land: 0.4 FAR.

  • The level of density at which traffic jams become a major political issue in edge city: 1.0 FAR.

  • The level of density beyond which few edge cities ever get: 1.5 FAR.

  • The level of density at which light rail transit starts making economic sense: 2.0 FAR.

  • The level of density of a typical old downtown: 5.0 FAR.

The density-gap corollary to the laws of density: Edge cities always develop to the point where they become dense enough to make people crazy with the traffic, but rarely, if ever, do they get dense enough to support the rail alternative to automobile traffic.


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 05:51:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
For suitable values of "economic sense."

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 05:56:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The density at which light rail starts making economic sense is a function of technology and costs, clearly.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 06:01:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The (sensible) point Matt Y and Atrios always make about this is that you can actually change development around public transportation. Large potential for densification exists in many suburubs and it indeed mainly requires that you eliminate a number of restrictions to do with planning around cars.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 06:07:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"economic sense under prevailing political/regulatory conditions"

With the exceptions of places that manage to elect more far-sighted politicians, the definition of "economic sense" is the one we don't like but have to live with.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 06:03:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is where energy costs come into the picture ... and people are more responsive to the experience of oil price shocks than they would be to a slow, steady rise in the price of oil at the same average price, because of the experience of budgets being upset ... where people start clamouring for a transport line for reasons other than local traffic congestion.

This also comes with a long-term decline in the market value of auto-only suburban housing. When that declines to the point that auto-only suburban housing is valued below replacement cost, and transport-supplemented suburban housing is valued above replacement cost, that is a setting that is similar to the suburban transformation itself, when the market value of the urban density brownstone townhouses dropped below replacement cost and the processes of slum development and white flight to the suburbs began.

When developer profits hinge upon provision of a transport line, and when mixed used multiple lot occupancy is the most cost-effective way to leverage that access to a transport line, then zoning regulations in large numbers of suburban areas in the US will change.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 11:20:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
is a tricky concept. Most people have Manhattan in mind, but Paris actually packs more people, business and activity on its territory, per square kilometer, than Manhattan, despite having very few buildings above 6 floors.

There's still a lot of truck grdening in the first ring of suburbs (which is almost as dense as central Paris), but I'm not sure this is really required. The logistics (food and other good supply) of a dense big city with lots of local smallish supermarkets and retailers are actually the most efficient you can have - remember that the hardest bit is always the wholesale-to-retail bit; with local supermarkets that can be supplied by medium sized trucks and that people can walk to, you solve the biggest issue.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 12:20:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... against the idea that everyone must move into densely populated cities as an argument that nobody must move into densely populated cities.

The less energy intensive system for providing the produce that is sold in city groceries that preceded the current oil-fed agricultural system involved a range of cities, towns, and hamlets ... and one thing that you found in the hamlets that had efficient transport access to cities and towns was a ring of truck gardening.

Europe also lives beyond its biocapacity ... indeed, in the rough estimates of the Global Footprint Network, the US, Germany and Japan each live beyond our biocapacity by similar acreages. France roughly breaks even on its biocapacity, but unless nations like the US and France with above-average biocapacity per capita are able to live within our means, that is not a technological regime that is a candidate for global sustainability.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 01:50:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
only that big cities are sustainable even if they produce no food locally because it is not that resource intensive to supply them effectively, and they have lots of other advantages coming from their density.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 05:53:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... of the resource intensity to supply them is that its very resource intensive ... but the resources are further up the supply chain.

However, the point of my previous comment is that my comment before that was not saying that big cities would necessarily be unsustainable.

However, that food does have to come from somewhere, and we can not just wave a magic wand and exempt agriculture from the need to be sustainable, so that we can just feed the cities with massive factory farms employing some minute share of the population.

The most energy efficient source of fresh produce for the cities on a whole life cycle analysis will be truck gardens with very little trucking involved, shipped in from surrounding ex-suburbs along the same transport corridors that provide the energy efficient passenger transport.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 11:09:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Manhattan (27,490 / km2) has a higher population density than Paris (25,460 / km2).

The point that you don't need high-rises for density still stands, of course.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 06:02:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the exact number. I'm still trying to dig up GDP numbers to compare as well...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 06:11:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
New York Gross Metropolitan Product: $1.2tn.

Paris Region GDP: $731bn.

I'm a bit surprised by how low London in.  Only about $669bn.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 06:58:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
but that's not the numbers I'm looking for - just Paris (the inside-the-ring city) vs Manhattan.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 07:00:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Right, I posted another comment below my original.  I don't think we calculate output for Manhattan alone, since it's only one borough of the city.  You could probably find Paris somewhere, but I couldn't get ahold of it.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 07:05:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
...adding: Those are obviously not comparisons between Paris and Manhattan but rather the two metro areas.  I don't see actual statistics for either the Paris city limits or Manhattan.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 07:03:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, administratively, Manhattan = New York County and Paris = the 75 département (and the city), so it should be easy to find data for both deep down the bowels of our respective statistical administrations...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 04:46:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I just read 'Car Free Cities' by J.H. Crawford.  He proposes pretty much this exact model.  If you haven't read this, I commend it to you.
by njh on Tue Aug 18th, 2009 at 03:02:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course he is right about the "information economy." I think the money quote is this:

But even in 1996 it should have been obvious that this was silly. First, for all the talk of an information economy, ultimately an economy must serve consumers -- and consumers don't want information, they want tangible goods.

Real stuff matters. The ability to manufacture the windmills that power your computer is more important than what goes on on the computer screen.

No. People (who the the fuck is a consumer, exactly?) want status and the markers of status. If those could be acquired electronically then they won't give a damn about tangible goods beyond what they need for their physical needs. In fact, they'll neglect their physical needs to acquire status on-line.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 05:33:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You mean, reach umpteenth level on WoW while feeding on coffee ?

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Sat Aug 22nd, 2009 at 08:53:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is more than impressive post. And I like that you let people thin about some issues and involve them in discussion.
by Mebeles on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 04:20:24 AM EST
Thanks, that's what we do.

Welcome to ET.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Aug 16th, 2009 at 04:42:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Education will pay as it always had in one way or another. What Krugman describes can be called a demise of the liberal arts college (who needs economists or lawyers or financial innovators of hedge fund type anyway), a demise of the UNIVERSITY (sufficient education could be obtained during schools years, perhaps by extending it by a few years, followed by a technical school, a model used in the Soviet Union), or perhaps a decline of the US, as it gives away its technological edge to some other country and turns into a third world dump, where a handful of elites rule over uneducated powerless masses. In the last case, the Krugman of 2096, he should dream of escaping to the next beacon of technology and democracy.

Unless you are willing to imagine a complete collapse of a society into a dark disorganized  tribal land, there will always be a need for highly specialized highly educated people who maintain and control the technological underbelly: engineers, doctors, agronomists, teachers, accountants, etc. These people have always been there, in the sense that every organized society - Egypt, Mesopotamia, Rome, Chinese dynastic societies, societies of the Americas - had these people and could not function without them.

As to plenty food - no farmers, that's just a particularity of the US, although it would be incorrect to believe that there are no farmers in the US or that there is a direct causative relation between the two (doesn't France have plenty of winemakers and lots of wine? And US does not have that many small business either). But how about plenty food - plenty of agricultural specialists. The US has something called the Agricultural Research Service, plus a network of university-based agricultural support centers (cooperative extension service). So when honey bees began to disappear last year (Google for more info), beekeepers could quickly ask for help from a large number of agricultural entomologists.

by biofuel on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 03:52:37 PM EST
Yes, in the future we will all be consultants...
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 04:08:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good comment, welcome to ET!

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 04:30:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So when honey bees began to disappear last year (Google for more info)
Google... or search ET: LQD: THE SILENCE OF THE BEES
by ARGeezer on June 21st, 2008: or The Bee Problem
by das monde on March 29th, 2007.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 17th, 2009 at 04:35:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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