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Championing Chomsky - "calibrating" TBG's "internal model"

by Ted Welch Wed Oct 20th, 2010 at 04:01:33 PM EST

"Common Cause proposes a simple remedy: that we stop seeking to bury our values and instead explain and champion them."

George Monbiot

"In this possibly terminal phase of human existence, democracy and freedom are more than values to be treasured; they may well be essential to survival."

Noam Chomsky

I really wish somebody else had put forward some criticism of ThatBritGuy's mish-mash of unsupported, often inaccurate assertion and inflated claims, arrogant dismissals of others and incoherent "argument" in "Malleable social reality". This grew (once again) from a comment and took some time, it covers a wide range of issues, so I've put it up as a diary.


If my comments seem harsh, this seems appropriate with views which are so arrogantly dismissive of even the most respected thinkers, while having nothing coherent to offer. The whole thing is another example of the kind of careless, arrogant and patronising  attitude which prompted my Rawls/Krugman/Chomsky diary; such major figures as Rawls, Zizek and Chomsky are again arrogantly dismissed as being  "ineffective and irrelevant" - ah, were they only as smart as TBG they would have focused on "calibration of internal models" and "feedback loops". His own phrase, "aggressive narcissist", comes to mind.

Chomsky


Chomsky is one of the most globally famous figures of the left,  ...  He has a very large following of supporters worldwide as well as a dense speaking schedule, drawing large crowds wherever he goes. He is often booked up to two years in advance. He was one of the main speakers at the 2002 World Social Forum. He is interviewed at length in alternative media. Many of his books are bestsellers, including 9-11.

The 1992 film Manufacturing Consent, was shown widely on college campuses and broadcast on PBS. It is the highest grossing Canadian made documentary film in history.
... Chomsky is widely read outside the US. 9-11 was published in 26 countries and translated into 23 languages; it was a bestseller in at least five countries ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chomsky's_political_views

Perhaps TBG would also consider Aristophanes (thanks to Helen for the link) "ineffective" and "irrelevant", after all, "he lost":


The ancient Greek playwright Aristophanes spent his life battling the assault on democracy by tyrants. It is disheartening to be reminded that he lost.  

Aristophanes Hedges


But I'm with Chris Hedges in thinking that what Aristophanes did was important and inspirational, like Chomsky's work:

... unless we adopt the radicalism held by Aristophanes, unless we begin to hinder the functioning of the corporate state through acts of civil disobedience, we are finished.

ibid

Chomsky would agree. During the Vietnam War he wrote approvingly of civil disobedience, remarking that he was "a minor - and, to be honest, reluctant - participant":


In the days between April 19 and May 3, several hundred thousand people demonstrated before the Capitol building, veterans testified at official and unofficial Congressional hearings, and thousands participated in lobbying and passive civil disobedience at government offices. The Mayday actions involved more than 15,000 people, many of whom submitted to repeated arrest and atrocious treatment. Elsewhere, there were supporting events. The demonstrations in San Francisco were the largest ever held there.

Civil disobedience

He is modest about his own role generally and emphasises the co-operative nature of what he does and gives credit to people who do the daily grind which makes change possible:


 I flew in from Boston, came over and gave a talk. The people responsible for that are the people working on it, the people working day after day to create the organizational structures, the support systems, to go up and back to work with oppressed people over there. Maybe their names won't enter some record, but they're the ones who are leading everything. I come in and it's a privilege for me to be able to join them for an hour, but that's easy. You know, get up and give a talk, it's no big deal. Working on it day after day, all the time, that's hard, and that's important, and that's what changes the world, not somebody coming in and giving a talk."

http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/people2/Chomsky/chomsky-con5.html

But they DO invite HIM to talk and many people around the world clearly value what he has to say.


It is rare for an intellectual to be at the centre of public excitement. Noam Chomsky, Institute Professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), on a tour of India for the second time in five years, has evoked public enthusiasm on a scale that few intellectuals can dream of. For Indians troubled by the happenings in Afghanistan and craving for an alternative view of what is really happening there, Chomsky's three-week-long tour has been a deliverance. The polymath - pioneer in the field of linguistics, social theorist, political and media critic and above all, the most consistent and powerful voice against the American establishment - addressed audiences in Delhi, Chennai and Thiruvananthapuram.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1824/18240230.htm


Psychology and politics

There are no examples from TBG of "effective" people because he tends to disparage just about anybody and anything already done. The diary seems to reflect a sense that he is almost alone is understanding things:

"Tom Crompton of WWF, who is making the radical and unheard of suggestion (unless you read ET -) ..." (that is, TBG in ET of course) - "that psychology may have something useful to contribute to political theory."

It's not "unheard of" nor that "radical"; from a review of the "Oxford Handbook of Political Psychology":


"Fortunately, during the last half-century, a tremendous amount of exciting research has conducted psychological analyses of a range of important political phenomena, from intergroup conflict to international relations to public opinion and elections and much more."

http://www.amazon.com/Oxford-Handbook-Political-Psychology-Handbooks/dp/019516220X/

Changing social ethics

Another of his bizarre claims is that people have generally missed something else which TBG understands:

"Social ethics have changed out of all recognition over the last century - and bizarrely, hardly anyone has commented on this." - until TBG came along again to put us all right.

To cite just one example, Chomsky has commented on this:

Recent movements have exhibited significant broadenings of the moral sphere where people have accepted responsibility towards wider and wider sections of people. Concern for indigenous tribal people is new. The environmental movement exhibits solidarity that extends to future generations -- that's also new. These moral changes are comparable to those that accompanied the abolition of slavery.

http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/199808--.htm

and how to bring about such changes:


Go back to '62, there was no feminist movement, there was a very limited human rights movement, extremely limited. There was no environmental movement, meaning rights of our grandchildren. There were no Third World solidarity movements. There was no anti-apartheid movement. There was no anti-sweat shop movement. I mean, all of the things that we take for granted just weren't there. How did they get there? Was it a gift from an angel? No, they got there by struggle, common struggle by people who dedicated themselves with others, because you can't do it alone, and made it a much more civilized country. It was a long way to go, and that's not the first time it happened. And it will continue.

http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/people2/Chomsky/chomsky-con5.html

Arguably Chomsky played a significant role (for one individual) in bringing about such changes in attitude. Lots of the people who read him are themselves people who help shape wider attitudes:  academics, media people like John Pilger and his late director, David Munro, both Chomsky fans, who have made major, popular documentaries about the kind of issues Chomsky focuses on:

A great and courageous journalist, Martha Gellhorn says:


[John Pilger] has taken on the great theme of justice and injustice... He documents and proclaims the official lies that we are told and that most people accept or don't bother to think about. [He] belongs to an old and unending worldwide company, the men and women of conscience. Some are as famous as Tom Paine and William Wilberforce, some as unknown as a tiny group calling itself Grandmothers Against The Bomb.... If they win, it is slowly; but they never entirely lose. To my mind, they are the blessed proof of the dignity of man. John has an assured place among them. I'd say he is a charter member for his generation."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Pilger

 

TBG clearly isn't much interested in evidence, as is evident from the presentation - MY bullet points - but then he doesn't think much of the efficacy of rational argument, though, of course, trying to put his case involves an attempt at rationality.

Enlightenment and social choice

TBG starts his bullet points with:


There's a massive distance between Enlightenment notions of rationality, and how people actually act, both individually and in groups.

Oh dear, not a good start, unquestioningly trotting out the invalid old Romantic stereotype of the Enlightenment:


Once one probes below the surface, however, the values actually espoused by Enlightenment thinkers look a little less straightforward. In particular, it is difficult to discover just who is actually advocating the cold rational systems.

http://www.australianreview.net/digest/2005/11/gaukroger.html

Of course it has long been accepted that people don't make choices solely on purely rational grounds -  cf. the Sophists (also usually stereotyped, based on Plato), the Roman emperors' "bread and circuses" policies,  Machiavelli:


Since he understood actions to be the outcomes of emotions, Machiavelli's advice to political leaders included a great deal of material on how to manipulate the passions of subjects to keep public order.
... Throughout, Machiavelli stressed that fear provides a particularly reliable motivation, and envy a well-nigh universal one.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/emotions-17th18th/LD1Background.html#FloHumMac

But TBG derides "manipulation" in favour of ?  Is anyone clear about this ? There's vague talk about "calibration of internal models" but also implied medical treatment of "sociopaths". His term "hand-waving" also comes to mind.

It's not a simple choice between rational presentation of facts and appeals to feelings and values, as Tom Crompton in the Common Cause report says:


It should be reiterated that none of this is to suggest that campaigners can afford to be slap-dash with the facts of their case. Factual accuracy is, of course, an ethical imperative.

p. 19

http://assets.wwf.org.uk/downloads/common_cause_report.pdf


Democracy


Democracy with a true universal franchise is a relatively recent idea ... In reality it's so exceptional that it has never happened before - and that makes it more fragile than it looks.

 If you just focus on "total universal franchise", democracy might seem a "fragile", recent flower. But of course it's firmly rooted in a long tradition, through which it became universal in its later forms and these have spread very quickly and widely recently - partly due to global media.

Ignoring those deep roots and making alarmist claims about fragility is not the best way of defending it; such long traditions are something to be used in strengthening people in their efforts to further develop democracy, cf. Chomsky:


That was a strong, rich American culture, which was crushed by violence. The United States has a very violent labor history, much more so than Europe. It was wiped out over a long period, with extreme violence. By the time it picked up again in the 1930s, that's when I personally came into the tail end of it. After the Second World War it was crushed. By now, it's forgotten. But it's very real. I don't really think it's forgotten, I think it's just below the surface in people's consciousness.

Harry Kreisler: This is a continuing problem, and something that emerges in your scientific work, also, namely, the extent to which histories and traditions are forgotten. To define a new position often means going back and finding those older traditions.

http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/people2/Chomsky/chomsky-con2.html

"Calibration" and intuition

Social and personal reality have never been calibrated. In the same way that you can't make measurements in science without accurate references, you can't create a rational political and economic system without good models of social psychology that take into account both innate and social distortions of perception and desire.

What is "personal reality" ?

I wonder why they have never been "calibrated" ? - apart from the fact that people obviously don't pay enough attention to TBG. Could it be that such things cannot be subjected to anything resembling what's normally understood by "calibration" ? - but it does make it sound very scientific - so TBG uses it again:  "The answer isn't more rhetoric and persuasion, but a calibration of the unexamined internal models that shape how people really think."

"Unexamined" ? The usual tendency to claim that TBG is the only one who sees what's essential. How does this differ from the study of ideologies, for example ? But, wait a minute, doesn't this sound like an "enlightenment approach" - dropping all that old "rhetoric" and getting rational; even precise and "calibrating" "internal models" - in order to entirely "reinvent politics and economics"  - no less !

People intuitively understand complex issues involving their fellow human beings, it's an appropriate mode in relation to human affairs . This is not to say, of course, that intuition is always correct, but in relation to human affairs it is often all we really have (see Chomsky, below) and can be very effective. The Common Cause report acknowledges the intuitively understanding and practical success of some politicians, etc.
cf.:


This understanding, of the limitations of the presentation of facts, is something that effective advertising people, public relations experts and politicians, have long recognised and incorporated into their communications and campaign strategies.

... effective politicians are highly aware of the way in which they can use political communications and, indeed, public policy itself, to further embed those values that resonate with their political convictions and which will therefore serve to build further public support for their political programmes.

Ibid. p.23

Aristophanes understood such things very well, though even putting his views powerfully in dramatic terms couldn't guarantee success in the face of the powerful forces controlling his society:


Aristophanes saw the same psychological and political manipulation undermine the democratic state in ancient Athens. He repeatedly warned Athenians in plays such as "The Clouds," "The Wasps," "The Birds," "The Frogs" and "Lysistrata" that permitting political leaders who shout "I shall never betray the Athenian!" or "I shall keep up the fight in defense of the people forever!" to get their hands on state funds and power would end with the citizens enslaved.
"The truth is, they want you, you see, to be poor," Aristophanes wrote in his play "The Wasps." "If you don't know the reason, I'll tell you. It's to train you to know who your tamer is. Then, whenever he gives you a whistle and sets you against an opponent of his, you jump out and tear them to pieces."

Hedges

What the Common Cause report comes up with is not so new: people can be divided into general categories:

Our social identity is formed by a mixture of values. But psychological tests in nearly 70 countries show that values cluster together in remarkably consistent patterns. Those who strongly value financial success, for example, have less empathy, stronger manipulative tendencies, a stronger attraction to hierarchy and inequality, stronger prejudices towards strangers and less concern about human rights and the environment. Those who have a strong sense of self-acceptance have more empathy and a greater concern about human rights, social justice and the environment.

http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2010/10/11/the-values-of-everything/

No surprises there and the suggested remedy of "championing our values" has been understood by politicians long before Ed Miliband:

Common Cause proposes a simple remedy: that we stop seeking to bury our values and instead explain and champion them.
...
Ed Miliband appears to understand this need. He told the Labour conference that he "wants to change our society so that it values community and family, not just work".

ibid.

Chomsky very clearly "champions" freedom and democracy, while exposing how those in power, while paying lip-service to these same values, hypocritically subvert them.

Even the new jargon in the report, "deep frames", seems pretty intuitive, and also rather like "ideology":

George Lakoff describes the distinction between cognitive and deep frames in this
way:

"Surface [or cognitive] frames are associated with phrases like `war on terror' that both activate and depend critically on deep frames. These are the most basic frames that constitute a moral world view or a political philosophy. Deep frames define one's overall `common sense'. Without deep frames there is nothing for surface frames to hang onto. Slogans do not make sense without the appropriate deep frames in place" (Lakoff, 2006: 29).

To take Lakoff's example, the phrase `war on terror' was in effect a choice of words, just one possible way of framing the terrorist attacks of 9/11. The policy response to the event could have been framed as a crime.

p.42

http://assets.wwf.org.uk/downloads/common_cause_report.pdf

Chomsky, like others, has noted such framing and argued that 9/11 should be framed as a crime, and the attack on Iraq reframed as a "major crime", like the Vietnam War:

Political activist Noam Chomsky says that although President Obama views the Iraq invasion merely as "a mistake" or "strategic blunder," it is, in fact, a "major crime" designed to enable America to control the Middle East oil reserves.

http://pubrecord.org/nation/5953/chomsky-invasion-major-crime/

In fact some recent research has confirmed what we know anyway about people and their intuitive understanding (and indicates psychologists' interest in persuasion):


"Psychologists have devoted entire careers to finding out how people can be persuaded, but far less time investigating what people know intuitively about persuasion.

Now Karen Douglas and colleagues at Kent University have bucked this trend with a paper which they say shows people have an intuitive understanding of how a person's thinking style affects their vulnerability to persuasion, known formally as 'the elaboration likelihood model'.

Douglas

"Need for cognition"

What do you know, it also finds that some people respond well to "intelligent arguments".

This is the idea, supported by research findings, that people who have a greater inclination for thinking things through tend to be less swayed by adverts that use superficial tricks like beautiful models and slick graphics, but are more persuaded by adverts that make an intelligent argument. The jargon for the character trait in question is 'need for cognition'.

It's no surprise that Monbiot, despite his comments on the Common Cause report, quickly returns to the kind of rational, detailed political analysis, serving the "need for cognition", which one gets from Chomsky, and he refers to similar work by Naomi Klein:

The government's programme of cuts looks like a classic example of disaster capitalism: using a crisis to re-shape the economy in the interests of business.
In her book The Shock Doctrine, Naomi Klein shows how disaster capitalism was conceived by the extreme neoliberals at the University of Chicago.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/oct/18/conservative-financial-crisis-opportunity

It's noted there that, also Chomsky-style: " A fully referenced version of this article can be found on George Monbiot's website".

Science and human affairs

 Just how are we to create models taking account of "innate and social distortions of perception and desire" ? Such things are of course infinitely variable and constantly changing, not to mention the problems of distinguishing the innate from the social and getting agreement about what are "distortions" rather than views we don't agree with. The notion that there is some way to make a "calibrated" science out of this is just another example of supposed "Enlightenment rationalism" and in fact "pseudo-scientific posturing".

Chomsky is all for science, but understands its limits when applied to the study of human affairs:

"... the debate was initiated by the charge that I, Mike (Albert), and maybe others don't have "theories" and therefore fail to give any explanation of why things are proceeding as they do. We must turn to "theory" and "philosophy" and "theoretical constructs" and the like to remedy this deficiency in our efforts to understand and address what is happening in the world. I won't speak for Mike. My response so far has pretty much been to reiterate something I wrote 35 years ago, long before "postmodernism" had erupted in the literary intellectual culture: "if there is a body of theory, well tested and verified, that applies to the conduct of foreign affairs or the resolution of domestic or international conflict, its existence has been kept a well-guarded secret," ...

To my knowledge, the statement was accurate 35 years ago, and remains so; furthermore, it extends to the study of human affairs generally, and applies in spades to what has been produced since that time. What has changed in the interim, to my knowledge, is a huge explosion of self- and mutual-admiration among those who propound what they call "theory" and "philosophy," but little that I can detect beyond "pseudo-scientific posturing."

http://www.cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/chomsky-on-postmodernism.html

Cf.:

Generalizations, if carefully reached, can be quite useful. It's certainly not impossible to theorize about human action. We all do it all the time, informally and intuitively, and in the social sciences and psychology it's done more self-consciously. They're by no means fraudulent in general. The question that arises is whether they reach the level of depth of explanation and understanding so as to merit honorific terms that are often thrown around loosely ("theory," "science," etc.).

...
In principle, there might some day be good cognitive science explanations. But that is very remote from the current state of understanding.

... It's conceivable that the founder of what's now called "evolutionary psychology" (Peter Kropotkin) is right, and that there are evolutionary pressures leading to his version of communist anarchism (20). Or to Parecon (21) (participatory economics). Or -- take your pick. These topics just are not understood. What is understood, pretty well, is how institutions function and set constraints on policy choices. And that tells us quite a lot about how the world works.

http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/200401--.htm

"Tools of emancipation"

While continuing his specialised studies in linguistics, Chomsky has worked, to impressively wide appreciation (see opening quotation), to provide insight to a wider public about some of the most important political issues of the day, continuing an important tradition, and regretting that too many left intellectuals not only do not continue this tradition, but even denigrate important "tools of emancipation":


... many scientists, not too long ago, took an active part in the lively working class culture of the day, seeking to compensate for the class character of the cultural institutions through programs of workers' education, or by writing books on mathematics, science, and other topics for the general public. Nor have left intellectuals been alone in such work, by any means. It strikes me as remarkable that their left counterparts today should seek to deprive oppressed people not only of the joys of understanding and insight, but also of tools of emancipation, informing us that the "project of the Enlightenment" is dead, that we must abandon the "illusions" of science and rationality - a message that will gladden the hearts of the powerful, delighted to monopolize these instruments for their own use. They will be no less delighted to hear that science (E-knowledge) is intrinsically a "knowledge system that legitimates the authority of the boss," so that any challenge to such authority is a violation of rationality itself - a radical change from the days when workers' education was considered a means of emancipation and liberation. One recalls the days when the evangelical church taught not-dissimilar lessons to the unruly masses as part of what E. P. Thompson called "the psychic processes of counter-revolution," as their heirs do today in peasant societies of Central America.

http://www.chomsky.info/articles/1995----02.htm


A great many of us are glad that he has done this work and has not waited until we have "calibrated social and personal reality" - an absurd distraction which would also "gladden the hearts of the powerful".

Display:
TBG is getting lynched!

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Oct 20th, 2010 at 04:50:06 PM EST

I don't think a carefully referenced rebuttal amounts to "lynching" - even though I do make clear my contempt for his arrogantly dismissive attitude to such people as Chomsky.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu Oct 21st, 2010 at 05:13:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I was not aware that TGB had an "arrogantly dismissive attitude to...Chomsky" or, for that matter of Lakoff. Perhaps I missed something. If so, I am sure you will point it out. I certainly have not, though I agreed with TBG on the problems with the practical applicability of Rawls' analysis, or, for that matter, of most of the analysis undertaken from a Liberal standpoint, to current problems. I take this as more of a modern/post-modern divide.

I find, in fact, that I often agree with Chomsky. It seems to me that you proceed by "argument to authority" and having failed to establish the authority of Rawls are now attempting to ride Chomsky's reputation for the purpose of conflating the alleged rejection Chomsky with the very real rejection of Rawls and thence to an inductive proof of TGB's rejection of all authority.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Oct 22nd, 2010 at 12:09:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was not aware that TGB had an "arrogantly dismissive attitude to...Chomsky" or, for that matter of Lakoff. Perhaps I missed something.

It seems as if you missed just about all of the diary. For example there is no suggestion in it that TBG dismisses Lakoff, arrogantly or otherwise. There is merely a reference late in the diary to Lakoff, as he is quoted in the Common Cause report and I suggest that Lakoff's "deep frames" stuff is not such a novel idea.

TBG's arrogant dismissal of Chomsky as "ineffective and irrelevant" is documented at the beginning of the diary, followed by some evidence against this.

As to your reference to the modern/postmodern divide and other comments of yours with inflated claims about postmodernism, I recommend Chomsky's comments on this, cited towards the end of the diary:

My response so far has pretty much been to reiterate something I wrote 35 years ago, long before "postmodernism" had erupted in the literary intellectual culture: "if there is a body of theory, well tested and verified, that applies to the conduct of foreign affairs or the resolution of domestic or international conflict, its existence has been kept a well-guarded secret," ...

To my knowledge, the statement was accurate 35 years ago, and remains so; furthermore, it extends to the study of human affairs generally, and applies in spades to what has been produced since that time. What has changed in the interim, to my knowledge, is a huge explosion of self- and mutual-admiration among those who propound what they call "theory" and "philosophy," but little that I can detect beyond "pseudo-scientific posturing."

http://www.cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/chomsky-on-postmodernism.html

I don't say that this settles the matter (an argument to authority) I just think his opinion is worth noting - meanwhile I recommend Sokal's successful hoax and his book with Bricmont "Fashionable Nonsense: Postmodern Intellectuals' Abuse of Science".

Regarding my supposed failure to establish the authority of Rawls, this is your opinion and I note that you failed to adequately defend some of your comments about that diary against my criticisms. Others can decide who actually "failed".

I don't use argument to authority, which you don't seem to understand; I don't say Chomsky is right because he is an authority, I cite some of his arguments because they seem to me to be good arguments - a rather different matter. If you have any arguments against what Chomsky says in the views cited, go ahead and present them and I'll be happy to try to defend them - not by merely claiming that he's right because he's an authority.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Oct 22nd, 2010 at 05:30:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As to your reference to the modern/postmodern divide and other comments of yours with inflated claims about postmodernism, I recommend Chomsky's comments on this...:
"if there is a body of theory, well tested and verified, that applies to the conduct of foreign affairs or the resolution of domestic or international conflict, its existence has been kept a well-guarded secret,"

It seems to me that the accomplishments of postmodernism have chiefly been in dissolving the self-serving certitudes and illusions about "Western" forms and the idea of progress being self-evident, superior and virtuous, partly in their abilities to justify the rights of "The West" to exercise power over other cultures and peoples and partly in their ability to justify the legitimacy of the existing order within western societies. I consider the exposition of self- serving error and illusion to be a good thing, even if it is primarily destructive. It is those things to which I referred. And the quote you provide from Chomsky is perfectly consonant with that effort.

There are often people such as Fleck or Chomsky who are somewhat to very much ahead of their times. What mattered about the works of Michel Foucault, Jacques Derrida, Edward Said and others in the "postmodern deconstructionist" movement, so called, is that they provided a critical mass, or created a "thought collective" to use Fleck's terms. As a result of their efforts what was once unchallenged is now contested. I consider that to be an advance.

It is true that this is destructive of certitudes that so many found and find so comforting, and that it has not yet served to provide credible alternatives to what was discredited, in no small part because of the number who deny that their beloved certitudes have been discredited. Many find this development disconcerting. I have always felt it an intellectual obligation to maintain an agnosticism in the face of uncertainty and feel that it is better to have no certainties than to have false certainties.

My own sense is that what values and truths we have inherited and of which we might be adequately certain, are, of themselves, are an inadequate guide to our conduct in constructing an improved society and that we are probably stuck with sort of an analogy to Kurt Gödel's famous theorem concerning mathematical systems. Yet we must proceed knowing that ourselves and our tools are flawed. But then this should be expected given that we are only self-glorified social primates.

To move beyond this place we must, in my view, accept our obligation to consciously create our own futures in an open and cooperative manner. In this we are opposed by all who want to use the uncertainty to control the world, or their part of it, to their own immediate advantage, disregarding the concerns of others. I believe Friedrich Nietzsche addressed these problems on the level of the individual via his concept of "the will to power." I am sure you know his work much better than I do. But I think we need to derive a collective or social will to power in some sense.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Oct 23rd, 2010 at 12:15:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This view of what postmodernism is supposed to have achieved is a gross exaggeration, there had been plenty of things raising questions about "Western" "certitudes", "progress", etc. before postmodernism came along - 2 world wars, decline of old imperial systems, etc.

You seem to have missed this bit in his general comments on postmodernism:

To my knowledge, the statement was accurate 35 years ago, and remains so; furthermore, it extends to the study of human affairs generally, and applies in spades to what has been produced since that time. What has changed in the interim, to my knowledge, is a huge explosion of self- and mutual-admiration among those who propound what they call "theory" and "philosophy," but little that I can detect beyond "pseudo-scientific posturing."

http://www.cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/chomsky-on-postmodernism.html

He goes on:

...

As for the "deconstruction" that is carried out (also mentioned in the debate), I can't comment, because most of it seems to me gibberish. But if this is just another sign of my incapacity to recognize profundities, the course to follow is clear: just restate the results to me in plain words that I can understand, and show why they are different from, or better than, what others had been doing long before and and have continued to do since without three-syllable words, incoherent sentences, inflated rhetoric that (to me, at least) is largely meaningless, etc. That will cure my deficiencies --- of course, if they are curable; maybe they aren't, a possibility to which I'll return.

ibid



Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Oct 23rd, 2010 at 09:51:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The sneering presentation doesn't do your meticulous argument any favours. Couldn't you have rephrased certain parts to appear more friendly? Quite uncivil thoughts can sometimes be hidden in the most civil of communications - the latter representing ET's hopes for its debating style.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed Oct 20th, 2010 at 04:56:20 PM EST
seconded. unnecessary edge.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Oct 21st, 2010 at 02:53:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

OK, and now what do you have to say about the issues ?

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu Oct 21st, 2010 at 04:53:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
not much, i am here principally to learn.

it's in all of our interests that we discover and practice ways to debate without making things too personal. it sours the vibe.

your disagreement with TBG is fine, but you put off interest in your (most erudite) opinions with the querulous, snippy tone.

the subject matter is above my pay grade, interesting though it is.

disagreement can be instructive, but not so much if it's petulant.

looking forward to your further contributions... :)

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Oct 22nd, 2010 at 10:54:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It's not "petulant" melo, it is sarcastic and dismissive, the latter echoing his own tone and applying it to a more deserving case :-)

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Oct 22nd, 2010 at 05:33:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think I agree too Ted, as the diary lives on without the context that fired up the heat that got your to create this piece. The edge ends up costing you by its distraction, while gaining you no points.

I'd say, edit it a smidge - I don't know the political ramifications of that, of course. Perhaps you have to mark the edits or something, I don't know. But it would be worth while for when someone sorts on something and finds this two years from now.

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Thu Oct 21st, 2010 at 08:13:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
siegestate:
without the context that fired up the heat that got your to create this piece.

I would add that without links it becomes hard for the interested reader to even find said context.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Oct 21st, 2010 at 03:43:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I referred to TBG's recent diary:

http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2010/10/14/121641/36

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu Oct 21st, 2010 at 04:54:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Understood; but my complaint still holds.

Your pieces are treatises, often sophisticated enough to require full attention...difficult for simple minds like mine. I certainly don't need the extra problem of being knocked out of the movie by emotive lashing that doesn't have to do with the subject.

Just my 2cents, from your target audience.

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Fri Oct 22nd, 2010 at 07:02:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

"emotive lashing that doesn't have to do with the subject."

It seems I have a lower outrage threshold than most people :-) I thought I'd made it clear that my own tone was simply echoing TBG's, which had annoyed me - that was part of the subject. But it went far beyond "emotive lashing" and about 95% was, I hope, pretty rational argument. Sorry to have lost you and thanks for the positive part of your comment.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Oct 22nd, 2010 at 05:38:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Understood then, understand now.

"Sorry to have lost you...' 'Twould take a lot more than that to lose me. Keep up the good work.

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Sat Oct 23rd, 2010 at 05:27:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It's a pity that you didn't make similar points about TBG's "sneering" comments about Chomsky et al.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu Oct 21st, 2010 at 04:44:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There's nothing "friendly" about my attitude to TBG's views as stated in ET  (maybe he is a nice guy personally) - I don't approve of arrogant dismissal.  Given how few critical comments his "arguments" elicited - why was that ? If my arguments are mistaken, show me where. If not, explain why nobody else put those arguments forward - even in a "friendly" manner.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu Oct 21st, 2010 at 05:09:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've given up arguing with TBG.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Oct 22nd, 2010 at 07:25:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Rationally I know this is sensible :-) - but I hoped my arguments (the bulk of the diary) might engage a wider audience.  

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Oct 22nd, 2010 at 05:45:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll give it a try.

TBG's main point is that we are run by a bunch of sociopaths that are keeping power through systems that weed out non-sociopaths. The rest is just supporting points, and since he hardly is trying to convince others that he is right, but rather exploring and restating the same theme with some focus on what is to be done, the supporting points hardly matter.

As I see it you could strike every point you argue against here and it would not matter, in fact TBG's bullet points can be shorted to:

European Tribune - Malleable social reality

  1. Personal interactions have some limits on sociopathic behaviour. Lying in personal relationships still seems to come under caveat emptor, but cheating and scamming victims or physically assaulting them can lead to jail time.

  2. This isn't true in policy. Politics and economics still include feedback loops that reward sociopathic behaviour. Many people are at least reasonably good at cooperation. But if you have filters that give power to people who act pathologically, sociopaths will tend to crowd out rational people from the control structures that run your culture. From the narcissism of middle and upper management to the extreme derangement of much of the banking industry and the Washington consensus, this seems to be the chief political problem of the time.

Me, I think it is an interesting but on the whole unprovable assumption. The interesting part is in what is to be done, because assuming that we are run by sociopaths is just another way of looking at what we can do with limited agency, without holding the levers of power in a state. And as most of us will never be king, I think that is a fruitful perspective. Means that work with sociopaths running the show should work without sociopaths too.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Oct 22nd, 2010 at 04:26:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well maybe he'll reply to you, but I would have thought that you leave out what he seemed to think are quite important notions, such as "calibrating" all those "internal models", supposedly as a necessary step before we develop ideas about policy. Quite a mistaken idea, as I argued.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Oct 22nd, 2010 at 06:52:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"In this possibly terminal phase of human existence, democracy and freedom are more than values to be treasured; they may well be essential to survival."

Noam Chomsky

Democracy is now a tool of social manipulation and economic pressure. We are supposed to be satisfied with a choice between a Republican and a Democrat (and alternation of the presidents) and occasional rags-to-riches stories (and some lottery chances). By now it is used with results worse than with overt totalitarian methods, especially in the developing markets and countries. Perhaps any humanitarian scheme is susceptible to rapid abuse development, degeneration and corruption.

by das monde on Thu Oct 21st, 2010 at 03:14:04 AM EST

Chomsky is obviously referring to the general notion of democracy, not its perverted form in the US, which he spends a lot of time criticising.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu Oct 21st, 2010 at 04:47:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Comments so far have been predictable and disappointing, there is some tutting about the tone, but nothing about the arguments put forward - if anybody has anything to say about them, please do so - I think the issues are important and I took some time researching my points, but I'm obviously open to alternative points of view.

But, as so often, it seems that group solidarity is seen as the primary consideration, thus while nobody seemed worried about TBG's dismissal of Chomsky as "ineffective and irrelevant", people expressed their concern that I actually adopted a similar tone towards much smaller fry such as TBG, after all, "he is one of us". But if anyone thinks my specific criticisms are wrong in any way, do let us know.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Thu Oct 21st, 2010 at 06:32:08 PM EST
I don't think anybody (TBG included, actually) entered into a dispute over the philosophical rectitude of these philosophers.

The criticism TBG levelled is that philosophy has only very limited applicability in terms of practical policy.

In terms of practical policy, we know what works: Handcuff the banks, shoot the hedge funds, build some railways and shipyards.

In terms of practical politics, we also know what works: Buy media and smear the enemy; when you're in power, ram through your agenda without consideration of the enemy's agenda; attack the enemy's funding structures; restrict the enemy's political space; hit his organisational infrastructure with every dirty trick in the book.

None of those tactics are liberal. But they work. So until and unless Liberal moral philosophy can present a set of activist tactics that are at least as effective as dirty tricks, they're going to come off as ivory tower pontifications.

Now, I have a great deal of respect for Chomsky as an activist. I'm not familiar with Rawls' grassroots organisation efforts (if any), so I'll reserve judgement on those.

If it turns out that Chomsky and Rawls do have a viable model for grassroot activism that does less violence to the Liberal Enlightenment principles, then let's hear it. I'll make a prediction, though: It won't involve any overlapping consensus, because actual, real-world activism involves finding ways to exclude, de-legitimise and constrain your enemies irrespective of the intellectual merit of their arguments.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Oct 21st, 2010 at 08:44:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good post JakeS, and thanks for distilling this debate in a way that a Bear of Little Philosophic Brain like me can comprehend.

This discussion has largely gone over my head, but to be able to observe two ferociously bright people debating in this way is one of the reasons I still frequent ET.

Sometimes there can be a little too much ferocity on this site - and I am not singling out either this discussion, or these participants.

Just sayin'.....

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri Oct 22nd, 2010 at 04:53:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

"Good post JakeS, and thanks for distilling this debate in a way that a Bear of Little Philosophic Brain like me can comprehend."

He didn't "distil" it, he misdescribed it and suggested we all adopt a Nixon-style approach to politics - (see my reply) - do you really support that ?

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Oct 22nd, 2010 at 06:36:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
suggested we all adopt a Nixon-style approach to politics

Not quite: When developing policy, intellectual integrity is important. When disseminating policy it isn't. Nixon, perhaps due to approaching senility, forgot about the first bit.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Oct 22nd, 2010 at 09:40:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"When developing policy, intellectual integrity is important. When disseminating policy it isn't."

Chomsky is concerned with analysing policy and its applications, not developing it or disseminating - and it was his work in particular that I focused on.

But anyway, I personally think that one should be careful about abandoning one's key values - it might be an empty victory.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Oct 23rd, 2010 at 09:11:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't think anybody (TBG included, actually) entered into a dispute over the philosophical rectitude of these philosophers.

The criticism TBG levelled is that philosophy has only very limited applicability in terms of practical policy.

You seem to be confusing my discussion of Rawls and of Chomsky. I defended Rawls on the grounds that he never claimed to be trying to directly influence policy (so it's  an irrelevant criticism to say that he was "ineffective" in that) and that it's perfectly OK to do philosophy and that he'd done it very well and successfully. So this is irrelevant: "I'm not familiar with Rawls' grassroots organisation efforts (if any), so I'll reserve judgement on those."

I had thought I'd made it clear that, having said that re Rawls, I preferred Chomsky, who, in his political writing, does not claim to be doing philosophy, in fact I quoted him rejecting the idea and giving his reasons for this. So, in relation to Chomsky: "philosophy has only very limited applicability in terms of practical policy" is quite irrelevant.

Why do you have "great respect for Chomsky as an activist" if, from what else you say, you think he must be misguided ? You're entitled to your opinion that useful political activity is confined to "dirty tricks", I think that such a view has already surrendered important things to the enemy. There are many ways to be active politically and intellectuals like Chomsky have an important role in providing accurate analysis of what those in power are actually doing. This in itself can be very motivating. I noted that he stresses the importance of co-operation and of the role of those who organise political activity, and, again, he doesn't think one needs a "theory" about this. As I said,  many who organise political activity of a more direct and practical kind, value his contribution, hence his demanding speaking schedule. I respect the opinion of the many Chomsky fans that he's making an important contribution and my own practice as an academic was strongly influenced by him and I am pleased that a number of my ex-students have gone on to do documentary projects which can be seen as reflecting his approach. I think standing up for some ideals is important and can in itself play a political role in motivating people (see the Common Cause report and the idea of championing values)  and not just winning by any "dirty tricks".

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Oct 22nd, 2010 at 06:23:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why do you have "great respect for Chomsky as an activist" if, from what else you say, you think he must be misguided?

Because he uses his bully pulpit with commendable ruthlessness and tolerable efficiency.

But his circumstances are special in that he is moderately famous. "Have your activists become famous" is obviously not a sound organisational principle, for much the same reason that "every country should run a trade surplus" is not sound macroeconomic advice.

I think standing up for some ideals is important and can in itself play a political role in motivating people (see the Common Cause report and the idea of championing values)  and not just winning by any "dirty tricks".

Let me paint you a picture of the level of enlightenment in a moderately sophisticated contemporary first-world country.

Around 80 % are able to read something more complicated than a tabloid newspaper. Around a quarter of the population is able to do basic math. Around a tenth are members of a political party. The majority of the population relies exclusively on television infotainment for their news and views. Of the remainder, a majority rely on some combination of television infotainment and a single newspaper. Of those who actively follow politics, maybe a third have a vested interest in siding with the bad guys.

Even being optimistic, that breaks down something like this: A tenth or so of the population is already in your camp. Another tenth or so has a vested interest in not listening to reason, and a shade over half treat politics like a reality show on the telly. If your only target audience is those who have the time, inclination and skills required to engage in a good-faith intellectual discussion of public policy, then that leaves you well short of a majority come election day.

Now, you may see a problem with using intellectual thuggery to persuade those who treat politics as a moderately amusing television game show. I don't. For whatever reason, they're already disenfranchised - exploiting that fact doesn't make it worse.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Oct 22nd, 2010 at 09:34:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I take it that you accept my correction regarding the philosophy bit.

"Because he uses his bully pulpit with commendable ruthlessness and tolerable efficiency."

I'm sure he would be grateful for your tolerance :-)

"But his circumstances are special in that he is moderately famous. "Have your activists become famous" is obviously not a sound organisational principle ..."

Well, neither I nor Chomsky are suggesting organisational principles - he doesn't think these are matters requiring much theory, and, as I showed, he has great respect for the people who do the organising, but it's not his role and yes, he IS a special case - the one I was defending.


If your only target audience is those who have the time, inclination and skills required to engage in a good-faith intellectual discussion of public policy, then that leaves you well short of a majority come election day.

This is simplistic, it's not just either/or, you seem to be ignoring my point that there are many ways of contributing to political activity at a variety of levels and I was primarily concerned with Chomsky and his particular role as an intellectual who has gained a very wide audience, for an intellectual.

Others use his work and spread his ideas more widely and in even more accessible forms.  The fact that he doesn't reach most of the population directly is no criticism of him, nor does it mean that he is entirely ineffective. The surprise is that he has reached as wide a global audience as he has - one very appreciative of the work he does as the quotation about his tour of India illustrated.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Oct 23rd, 2010 at 09:03:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ted Welch:
But, as so often, it seems that group solidarity is seen as the primary consideration, thus while nobody seemed worried about TBG's dismissal of Chomsky as "ineffective and irrelevant", people expressed their concern that I actually adopted a similar tone towards much smaller fry such as TBG, after all, "he is one of us".

Well, yes. TBG is a commenter here, Chomsky is not. Thus dismissing Chomsky (or any other well known public person, living or dead) does not have as much effect on the discussing climate as dismissing TBG (or other commenters).

I do not find it an unreasonable standard.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Oct 22nd, 2010 at 04:41:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
For me, the hacker ethic applies. "Upload more than you download". I am not a very good contributor to the core economic debates of this site, but I appreciate them greatly. The other core hacker ethic is to support the community (the source of useful content). My 'uploads' in supporting the community are a 'compensation' for the areas where I feel I can't contribute much.

I have to admit though that, though I disagree with TBG on some issues, his contributions mostly raise interesting questions in going forward, whereas Ted's retaliatory contributions mostly go backwards. It's a perceptual difference of course, but I know which one will better  improve the quality of content at ET, and also better provoke the desire to provide useful content.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Fri Oct 22nd, 2010 at 05:57:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"The other core hacker ethic is to support the community"

I don't think you "support" the community by failing to condemn unfair treatment of others - even if they're not part of the "community".

"Do not fear the enemies who hate you, fear the friends who flatter you." Nietzsche.

"Ted's retaliatory contributions mostly go backwards."

 Oh really, by carefully arguing about the issues raised and providing relevant evidence and references ? I would think any fair assessment would be that I have taken the discussion forward for those interested in detailed argument and supporting evidence rather than mere assertions of opinion.

 I would be interested to see you actually argue for your opinion - where are the examples of where I go "backwards" ?

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Oct 22nd, 2010 at 06:45:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I see, treat outsiders any way you like, but be nice to insiders. I don't find that to be a very laudable attitude - it's at the root of nationalism. Obviously I'm in minority about that - but I think I'll stick to the idea of treating everyone according to their just deserts and hope that others might object strongly when someone is arrogantly dismissed, even if they're not a member of the in-crowd.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Fri Oct 22nd, 2010 at 06:32:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, if Chomsky starts commenting here, he of course moves to the group of commenters. But until then, he is just another public figure. So unlike nationalism, the border is not rigid at all. It is more like the case were you would buy a beer for those present at your table, while not buying one for the rest of the bar, never mind the rest of mankind. Distance in space and time does matter in human relationships.

I have no objection to correcting misconceptions about public figures, but I see no need for the vitriol. Fighting vitriol with vitriol just leads to more vitriol.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Oct 23rd, 2010 at 07:56:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

But if someone at my table starts being arrogantly dismissive of someone like Chomsky I'd tend to be sarcastically dismissive of their opinion, whether they've bought me a beer or not.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.

by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Oct 23rd, 2010 at 08:17:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Then going on to argue my case for Chomsky.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Oct 23rd, 2010 at 09:05:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Which is understandable as far as the original comment thread goes. But making a new diary provides an opportunity to re-frame the discussion in a way that dials the snark back a bit if it's getting out of hand. I don't think it's out of line to express disappointment that this opportunity was missed here.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Oct 23rd, 2010 at 10:44:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A swedish kind of death:
Fighting vitriol with vitriol just leads to more vitriol.

yes

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Oct 23rd, 2010 at 09:21:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

We're talking about a few sarcastic comments in a very long diary - keep a sense of proportion.

Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner - that I moved to Nice.
by Ted Welch (tedwelch-at-mac-dot-com) on Sat Oct 23rd, 2010 at 09:29:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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