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Dutch Cabinet Falls Over Uruzgan Mission

by Oui Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 01:10:35 AM EST

.
See Nomad's fp story and discussion ... Balkenende and the Deathly Hallows

Dutch government falls over Afghanistan mission

(RNW) - The Dutch government has fallen as a rift between coalition parties over extending Dutch military participation in Afghanistan could not be healed.

"Later today, I will will offer to her majesty the Queen the resignations of the ministers and deputy ministers of the PvdA (Labour Party)," Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende told journalists.

News of the collapse came in the early hours of Saturday morning following 16 hours of crisis meetings and days of speculation that the differences between the coalition parties had simply become too great to bridge.

Uruzgan

The issue where a compromise could not be found - whether or not to extend the military mission in the unruly Afghan province of Uruzgan - was itself not new. The cabinet decided back in the autumn of 2007 to extend the mission to Uruzgan by two years.

But the Labour Party felt it could not compromise again on an extension of the military mission. The criticism of Dutch support for the invasion of Iraq, presented by the independent Davids Commission in early January, only reinforced the Labour Party's resolve.

Uneasy coalition

Uneasy compromise typified the coalition from the beginning. The centre-right Christian Democrats (and its predecessors) had governed with the centre-left Labour Party before. But the two parties have trouble forming a stable coalition.

Balkenende IV was no exception. Difficulties were already apparent during the negotiations to form the government in the winter of 2007. All three coalition partners, the two larger parties plus the smaller Christian Union, had to compromise on major issues.

During three years of government, many decisions were made only after long disagreement inside the cabinet. These included plans to raise the government pension age, how long to try to keep government expenditures up in the wake of the economic downturn, and whether or not to keep investing in the development of a new fighter plane, the Joint Strike Fighter.

Save face abroad

The fall of the government may, paradoxically, help the Netherlands save face abroad. At NATO headquarters, as well as in the United States, there is little understanding for the Labour Party veto of extending the military mission in Uruzgan. The Netherlands pulling out of Uruzgan is a source of irritation both in Brussels and Washington. The Netherlands even risks losing its hard-earned seat at the G20 meetings.

About the Dutch Mission in Afghanistan

The Netherlands and Afghanistan, how are we involved?

Since 2001 the Netherlands has been helping to bring stability and security to Afghanistan by providing humanitarian relief and development aid, and deploying troops.

Currently there are approximately 1500-1800 2000 Dutch troops stationed in Afghanistan, mainly as ground forces. The Netherlands also has six Apache and five Cougar helicopters, as well as six F16 fighter aircraft in the country.

The Netherlands is active not only in the southern province Uruzgan, but also in other parts of the country such as Baghlan, Bamiyan, Kabul and Kandahar. What our military forces have experienced there stands them in good stead for the difficult task facing them in Uruzgan. This province is one of the poorest and least developed provinces of Afghanistan.

Nature of the mission

Trust building is essential to the Dutch presence in Afghanistan. The soldiers invest a lot of time in making contact with local people, local authorities and unofficial leaders, including spiritual leaders. Greater trust is not just a basis for development, it also increases troops' own security.

The Dutch respect the Afghan people and are knowledgeable about religious beliefs, local customs and traditions. We do our utmost only to use force as a measure of last resort. This approach is nicknamed the 'Dutch approach', though actually it is the approach of all ISAF partners. Security and stability are prerequisites of development. Apart from taking political, military and economic factors into account, Dutch efforts in conflict-sensitive regions are also development-oriented. This integrated approach, known as Defence, Development & Diplomacy (the 3-D approach), is necessary if sustainable peace, freedom and development are to be achieved.

What has been achieved so far?

The Netherlands is one of the leading bilateral donors for reconstruction and development in Afghanistan. The Netherlands has pledged an amount of € 150m for reconstruction of Afghanistan over the period of 2006-2009, having already contributed € 180m so far. This makes the Netherlands the third largest donor to the Afghanistan Reconstruction Trust Fund (ARTF). The ARTF, managed by the World Bank, supports running costs of the Government of Afghanistan. For instance, the ARTF contributes to salaries of more than 270,000 civil servants, including 144,000 teachers. Over six million children, nearly 35% of them girls, will be enrolled in school in 2007/08, compared to a little more than a million students five years ago and very few girls. Also, about 13 million rural people in all 34 of Afghanistan's provinces have benefited from improved water, roads and other small infrastructure projects through the National Solidarity Program.

Obama/Biden wanted the Dutch to stay

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

Display:
Dutch Cabinet Falls Over Uruzgan Mission | 115 comments (115 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
VP Biden Called Wouter Bos (Labor Party) (4.00 / 2)
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Premature political grandstanding does not serve the debate about the Dutch presence in Afghanistan well

THE HAGUE (Dec. 8, 2009) - Rarely has Washington expressed such a keen interest in Dutch politics. Vice-president Joe Biden, secretary of state Hillary Clinton, US ambassador to Nato Ivo Daalder and US envoy to Afghanistan and Pakistan Richard Holbrooke - all of them called on the Netherlands in the past few days to keep its soldiers in Afghanistan beyond the agreed withdrawal date in late 2010.

Invariably they doled out compliments for the Dutch approach in Uruzgan province summed up in 'the three d's': development, diplomacy and defence - although Holbrooke added he didn't understand the first thing about Dutch politics.

Vice President's Call with Dutch Deputy Prime Minister Wouter Bos

IMO the Dutch Labor Party (PvdA) will pay dearly at the polls for this poor decision. The Dutch nation will not be taken seriously on the international stage. Wrong choice at the wrong moment. The economic recession is deep and crucial decisions have to be made in the coming weeks effecting the Dutch social structure. The Labor dogmas are not a wise path to follow. The Uruzgan mission under the Bush presidency was a troubling choice, the new strategy developed and implemented under President Obama will lead to a successful exit of military engagement by the end on 2011. The Dutch strategy in Uruzgan, the 3-D approach, is the blueprint for the ISAF mission.

If Dutch Labor wanted to exit the coalition, the discussion recently about the Davids Iraq Report would have given them a great opportunity. I just cannot grasp this new development, no winners just losers. The next election will see a move towards the extreme right in Dutch politics.

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 05:14:42 AM EST
Re: VP Biden Called Wouter Bos (Labor Party) (4.00 / 2)
American leaders seems to have no trouble navigating the allegedly unwieldly European Leaders Rolodex when they have the need...

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 05:16:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: VP Biden Called Wouter Bos (Labor Party) (none / 0)
If Dutch Labor wanted to exit the coalition, the discussion recently about the Davids Iraq Report would have given them a great opportunity. I just cannot grasp this new development, no winners just losers.

What prevented the PvdA from taking down the cabinet over Balkenende's position on the Iraq Report? Is this an ill-advised attempt to do now what they should have done then?

(See also here and there)

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 05:31:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Would Have Been Easy Prey (4.00 / 3)
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Labor Party could have made an easy kill as they were not involved in the decision to give "Atlantic" political support to Bush and the US for the Iraq invasion. Only Balkenende was involved in that choice, no other cabinet members could receive blame. Balkenende made all the wrong political moves in his first response after receiving the well kept secret Davids Commission Report on Iraq. Perhaps the Labor Party were just slow to make the analysis whether this break would be to their (dis)advantage. The Iraq decision (illegal war) was never liked in The Netherlands, contrary to the Uruzgan mission which is a clear multilateral NATO alliance mission.

In the next election, Bos leadership (Finance Minister) will come under fire for all economic misfortunes as he was involved in banking crisis (ING, AbnAmro, Fortis) and financial turmoil DSB bank and Icesave.

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 06:15:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Would Have Been Easy Prey (4.00 / 4)
contrary to the Uruzgan mission which is a clear multilateral NATO alliance mission.

I don't follow that at all. With the collapse of the USSR, NATO lost its legitimate reason for being. Whereas before it served the function of protecting Western Europe from (unlikely) Soviet aggression, after the collapse, its sole purpose became keeping the US in Europe, and making it impossible for Europe to develop a foreign or military  policy independently of the US.

It is specious to say that NATO is a multilateral organization. It is a vehicle for the projection of US power.

There are no valid reasons for European countries to be involved militarily in Afghanistan. Humanitarian goals cannot be achieved by military means. The NATO presence in Afghanistan is a US imperial, not a multilateral humanitarian, project.

And it is hard to see why the US itself should want to stay in Afghanistan, in geopolitical terms. There seem to be three reasons for the continuing presence and escalation, none of them having to do with Afghanistan itself:

  1. The old issue of maintaining US "credibility". If the US left Afghanistan without having achieved something that could be presented as a "victory", one would be reminded of the USSR's fate in Afghanistan. That would suggest that the US's vast military might does not translate into being able to affect outcomes on the ground, reducing US influence.

  2. When there are wars on, the Pentagon gets everything it wants.

  3. Having wars on makes it easier to continue the neoliberal project of cutting social spending, full steam ahead.


A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns
by Alexander on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 01:27:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Would Have Been Easy Prey (4.00 / 2)
A possible geopolitical motive for the US presence in AFPAK is to create instability, thus creating a raison d'être for US military power.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns
by Alexander on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 01:57:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Would Have Been Easy Prey (none / 1)
Does US involvement cause anything other than instability?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 21st, 2010 at 12:21:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Would Have Been Easy Prey (none / 0)
It is specious to say that NATO is a multilateral organization

"Multilateralism is a term in international relations that refers to multiple countries working in concert on a given issue."

It is a vehicle for the projection of US power.
It's a vehicöe for the projection of the interests of the members. Like the EU.

There are no valid reasons for European countries to be involved militarily in Afghanistan.
There sure are. For one, the Americans asked us kindly. And as they're our friends, we've chosen to help them. Not only NATO members have taken that position.

Humanitarian goals cannot be achieved by military means.
Humanitarian work is impossible in an insecure environment.

And it is hard to see why the US itself should want to stay in Afghanistan, in geopolitical terms.
Leaving Afghanistan and letting it collapse under its own weight will mean the Taliban will get back into power and the terrs will yet again have a safe haven. There's also the question what effect that will have on Pakistan, a nuclear weapons state.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 02:19:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Would Have Been Easy Prey (none / 1)
and the terrs will yet again have a safe haven.

I don't see why you bother posting such comments here. We have enough of that from the NY Times and The Economist.

You might find the following illuminating:

Our differing approaches to terror

Some years ago, the contrarian Belfast journalist John O'Farrell (not a Protestant unionist) was writing about the career of Martin McGuinness, which had taken him from head of the IRA to minister of education. As O'Farrell said, thanks to the Belfast agreement and settlement, "the children of Northern Ireland will have their futures in the hands of a man who, if he were a Serb, would be indicted at The Hague".

Or try another comparison, the respective fate of two terrorist leaders. One is a white Catholic Irishman, the other a dark-skinned Muslim Palestinian; one is asked to present a programme on Jesus, the other is brutally bumped off - an assassination which, like all such by Mossad, will never be publicly condemned by the US. Suppose that, at the height of the IRA violence, Adams and McGuinness had been the objects of "targeted killing" by MI6. It's interesting to speculate what the American reaction would have been. [...]

Compare and contrast, as exam papers say. The IRA and its front organisation Sinn Fein want to undo the partition of Ireland that was effected by the creation of a separate province of Northern Ireland in 1920. To that end the IRA deliberately murdered many people, including ordinary Protestants, and that end, if not the means, "is shared by many of our citizens", Blair says, as well as by millions of Irish Americans.

Hamas wants to undo the partition of Palestine that was effected by the creation of a separate state of Israel in 1948. To that end it has deliberately murdered many people, including ordinary Jews. And that end, if not the means, is shared by hundreds of millions of Arabs and Muslims as well as others in Asia and Africa. Why does their support not equally validate the objective?



A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns
by Alexander on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 02:35:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Would Have Been Easy Prey (none / 0)
I suppose you're one of those who think the CIA/Jews/neocons bombed the WTC and Pentagon?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 02:48:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Facile statement to make about McGuinness. (none / 1)
Of course it has to be said he's not a unionist, as if to dispel the reader of the logical conclusion, reading his "contrarianism," of bias. Of course, if Mr O'Farrell has evidence of Republican ethnic cleansing, that which certain Croat, Serb, Kosovar or Bosnian militants and commanders were in the Hague for in the first place. Sometimes the word contrarian simply means off the mark and asshole-ish.

And, you know, the IRA was always seen as a terrorist group, at least officially, like Hamas, though it is true that the IRA was not a creation of the UK (while Hamas was certainly a creation of Israel, to undermine Fatah...talk about blow-back) so I fail to see the point of this "contrarian," on a number of levels.'

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Sun Feb 21st, 2010 at 06:42:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Terrorists already have safe havens (4.00 / 2)
the world over. Somalia, Yemen, the Philippines coming first to mind.

Afghanistan is not a particularly well located place from which to launch terror attacks, unless of course, through incompetence, no one is paying attention to what they are doing.

It's a vehicule for the projection of the interests of the members. Like the EU.

I think you confuse the actual interests of the EU member states which are part of Nato, and the actual interests of the elites which rule in most of those member states.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Sun Feb 21st, 2010 at 06:45:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Would Have Been Easy Prey (4.00 / 4)
Starvid:
Leaving Afghanistan and letting it collapse under its own weight will mean the Taliban will get back into power and the terrs will yet again have a safe haven.

I thought the stated US goal at this time was to get the Talibans back into power, within a negotiated framework:

FT.com / Asia-Pacific / Afghanistan - McChrystal sees Taliban role

General Stanley McChrystal, the Nato commander in Afghanistan, has raised the prospect that his troop surge will lead to a negotiated peace with the Taliban.


Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Sun Feb 21st, 2010 at 03:02:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Would Have Been Easy Prey (none / 0)
If we can separate the "good" talibans from the "bad" ones, that'll be good enough.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Feb 22nd, 2010 at 01:39:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Would Have Been Easy Prey (none / 0)
Is this a surprisingly cynical snark from a pro-Afghanistan-war voice, or do you have illusions about "good" Taliban?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Feb 22nd, 2010 at 05:42:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Would Have Been Easy Prey (none / 1)
Good Talibans are Talibans that won't harbour terrs. No more, no less.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Feb 22nd, 2010 at 08:30:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Would Have Been Easy Prey (none / 1)
What is the definition of a terr? Is it based on suspicion of future terrorism or accusation of having committed acts of terrorism? In the latter case would it be enough with Talibans who offer to put the accused on trial in a third country?

If so, then the 2001 Talibans were good Talibans.

Bush rejects Taliban offer to surrender bin Laden - Asia, World - The Independent

Mr Kabir said: "If America were to step back from the current policy, then we could negotiate." Mr bin Laden could be handed over to a third country for trial, he said. "We could discuss which third country."

But as American warplanes entered the second week of the bombing campaign, Washington rejected the Taliban offer out of hand. "When I said no negotiations I meant no negotiations," Mr Bush said. "We know he's guilty. Turn him over. There's no need to discuss innocence or guilt."



Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Tue Feb 23rd, 2010 at 03:47:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Would Have Been Easy Prey (none / 1)
Some of them were good Talibans even before 9/11. Here's the Guardian on March 2001.
Last month the Taliban's foreign minister, Wakil Ahmed Mutawakil, indicated that the Taliban might be prepared to hand Mr Bin Laden over to another Muslim country where the evidence against him could be weighed by a panel of Islamic scholars. This proposal, rejected by the US, has now been shelved.
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Tue Feb 23rd, 2010 at 03:52:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Would Have Been Easy Prey (none / 0)
And what is the definition of a good Taliban?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Feb 23rd, 2010 at 04:10:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Would Have Been Easy Prey (none / 0)
I am working with Starvids definition:

Starvid:

Good Talibans are Talibans that won't harbour terrs.


Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Tue Feb 23rd, 2010 at 04:54:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Would Have Been Easy Prey (none / 0)
Somehow I read "are" as "and"... must have been the effect of sleep deprivation.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Feb 23rd, 2010 at 09:32:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To Avoid Sleep Deprivation (none / 0)
.
Use a bucket of water as prevention.

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Tue Feb 23rd, 2010 at 09:46:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Would Have Been Easy Prey (4.00 / 3)
"What is the definition of a terr?"

Someone who blows up women and children without proper authorisation from the Imperial Government. Also someone who's so rude as not to use proper high-tech delivery systems to dismember babies.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Feb 23rd, 2010 at 05:50:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Clinton defined "terr" for us recently (4.00 / 5)
Terrorism Defined: Bill Clinton Lights Our Way to Truth

Terror mean[s] killing and robbery and coercion by people who do not have state authority and go beyond national borders.

It just occurred to me that the "and go beyond national borders" clause is interesting. That makes Timothy McVeigh, who bombed a federal building during Clinton's presidency and abortion clinic bombers not terrorists, since they operate within national borders.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Tue Feb 23rd, 2010 at 10:12:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Clinton defined "terr" for us (none / 0)
So if Richard Reed had used an internal flight he wouldn't have been a terrorist?
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Tue Feb 23rd, 2010 at 12:21:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Clinton defined "terr" for us (4.00 / 4)
I guess the idea is that since Richard Reed is a self-admitted member of Al-Quaeda, he's a terrorist, since Al-Quaeda operates across national borders.

American right-wing extremists in contrast, being America firsters, typically do not go beyond the American national border.

Of course, the US engages in "killing and robbery and coercion" and goes "beyond national borders" (that's why it's considered to be an empire), but since it has "state authority", it is not a terrorist organization.

Nobody ever said that Clinton's not a clever fellow.

Also, Basque terrorists, for example, do not operate beyond (currently existing) national borders. Thus, they do not challenge the US's role as the hegemon which controls relations between states, and hence are not terrorists.

So Clinton's definition comes very close to saying that a terrorist is anyone who uses violence to challenge American power.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Tue Feb 23rd, 2010 at 01:49:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Clinton defined "terr" for us (4.00 / 6)
Also, Basque terrorists, for example, do not operate beyond (currently existing) national borders.

Really? I don't think there have been any attacks in France, but are you sure none of them come from the French side?

And then there's the Stern Gang's attempted bombing of Whitehall (the timer failed). That would make a Zionist group into terrorists. Does Clinton really mean to say that? Maybe he needs a better definition.

by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Tue Feb 23rd, 2010 at 02:42:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
MI5 Supplied British Passports to Mossad (none / 0)
.
See link at the end of my new diary - America's Terrorist Arrested by Iran's SF in Pakistan

MI5 and British passports

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Tue Feb 23rd, 2010 at 03:11:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Stern Gang and Aerial London Attack (none / 0)
.
My recent comment @BooMan - Stern Gang and Aerial London Attack
and many terror acts Zionist bombing of King David Hotel.

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Tue Feb 23rd, 2010 at 03:22:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Stern Gang and Aerial London Attack (none / 1)
No. The King David attack can be made into non-terrorism by a slight modification of the Clinton definition to refer to "future national borders". That's why I picked the Whitehall attack (the aerial London attack is speculation, while the failed Whitehall attack actually happened).
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Tue Feb 23rd, 2010 at 04:31:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The American Conservative and Domestic Terror (none / 1)
.
Article says it all.

Expression America Firster stolen? I liked the native First Nations at the Vancouver Olympics a lot better.

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Tue Feb 23rd, 2010 at 03:42:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Clinton defined "terr" for us (none / 0)
Which makes the IRA not terrorists, most of the time?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 24th, 2010 at 06:32:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Would Have Been Easy Prey (none / 0)
Al-Qaida people who do their best to launch attacks like the oneas against the Pentagon and the World Trade Center. Among others.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Wed Feb 24th, 2010 at 06:27:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Would Have Been Easy Prey (none / 0)
"Killers we don't like."
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Feb 24th, 2010 at 06:34:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A Good Taliban is a Captured Taliban (none / 0)
.
From an earlier comment @BooMan ... Capture or Surrender?

Abdul Ghani Baradar was targeted as a negotiator

THE Afghan Taliban's military leader has been arrested in a crushing blow to morale and logistical support for insurgents fighting NATO forces in Afghanistan.

"Given the fact that (Baradar) is very close to Mullah Omar and one of the key Taliban leaders, this could be an attempt to, on the one hand, use him as a negotiator but on the other hand disrupt the leadership and force the Taliban to come to the negotiating table," International Crisis Group chief Pakistan analyst Samina Ahmed said.

The Dutch don't work with Jan Mohammed in Uruzgan province

● A GoA Reconciliation Policy in the Making
● Abdul Ghani Baradar and Hamid Karzai both from Popalzai tribe
● Expedition Uruzgan: the Road of Hamid Karzai to the Palace by Bette Dam

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Tue Feb 23rd, 2010 at 07:46:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is multilateral insofar as it represents the (4.00 / 2)
ruling elite here in the EU and their deference to US power.

Otherwise you are completely right though I suspect Oui means "multilateral" in the sense that as regards "international law" it is seen as such, including by major opinion segments in the Netherlands.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Sun Feb 21st, 2010 at 06:32:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: It is multilateral insofar as (none / 1)
That the policies of European states are determined by elites as opposed to by the demos is not of great relevance here.

The relevant point is that NATO is a military organization consisting of a set of member states. Multilateralism in substance as opposed to form implies cooperation among equals. Since the military budget of the US dwarfs those of the other NATO members combined, it is not the case that the US in NATO is just first among equals. It basically calls the shots, and that is not multilateralism. The name for it is hegemony. (To get back to your point, hegemony does imply that the hegemon acts in the interests of the elites of the countries which it dominates.)

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Sun Feb 21st, 2010 at 02:01:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
JP Balkenende to remain leader CDA (none / 0)
.
Christian Democrats party leadership has nominated JP Balkenende lead the party through the election. The members of the CDA party will have the final decision during a National Congress.

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 10:13:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Unbelievable... (4.00 / 2)
I know you're a fan of Balkenende, but I find it astonishing that someone who has shown such a streak of ineptitude to govern, cannot apparently see it is high time to get going.
by Nomad (Bjinse) on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 01:41:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BAU (4.00 / 3)
Politicians will act like politicians. Why give up power?

There are two upsides to this. The first is that there's no danger of Verhagen becoming Minister President. The second is that the Dutch electorate will gets its say on Balkenende.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 02:36:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: BAU (none / 0)
Will they deliver Balkenende V?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 21st, 2010 at 12:23:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: VP Biden Called Wouter Bos (Labor Party) (4.00 / 2)
the new strategy developed and implemented under President Obama will lead to a successful exit of military engagement by the end on 2011.

What? How will this engagement end? From the US completely withdrawing from Afghanistan militarily? Or by the US completely and decisively subduing Afghan resistance to its occupation?

As far as the first possibility goes, the intensity of US base-building in Afghanistan shows it has no intention of leaving.

In Afghanistan, the Pentagon Digs in

While the United States officially insists that it is not setting up permanent bases in Afghanistan, the scale and permanency of the construction underway at Bagram seems to suggest, at the least, a very long stay. According to published reports, in fact, the new terminal facilities for the complex aren't even slated to be operational until 2011.


A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns
by Alexander on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 01:45:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: VP Biden Called Wouter Bos (Labor Party) (none / 1)
What? How will this engagement end?

I think one important thing to remember is that we don't get all the facts back home. The fact that the war has already been going for 9 years without victory doesn't mean victory is impossible - it might just as well mean the people in charge have been plodding idiots. After all, that's characterised the rest of the Bush administration. While it seems hard to believe to people without experience of military bureaucracy, it's not at all impossible that no one important considered that the best way to defeat the insurgency might be counterinsurgency tactics. Witness for example the very liberal use of airstrikes, which is a sure sign of doing it wrong. Now that McChrystal is in charge, things are already changing fast, and given that we've already been there for 9 years we might well give him a few more to let his new tactics be implemented and yield results. It would after all be pretty silly to surrender now, just to later understand we were at the brink of victory.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 02:26:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: VP Biden Called Wouter Bos (Labor Party) (none / 1)
I can't see any vision of "victory" along the lines of the end of WWII. The US/NATO is not really doing battle against an organized nation state that can be brought to terms of surrender. There is no real prospect of turning Afghanistan into such a place in the foreseeable future. It is a war of neo-colonial occupation. The way those things come to an end is when empires run out of money.
by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 02:39:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: VP Biden Called Wouter Bos (Labor Party) (none / 1)
There's no reason to colonize Afghanistan, because the place is absolutely useless.

I did not claim victory would mean the same as it did in WW2 neither. Creating a reasonably stable Afghan state (or de facto states) that can control its own territory sounds fine by me. Is that impossible? Maybe. But we don't know until we've actually tried, and until now we haven't really tried. We've just dropped bombs on targets, which tends to rile up the locals.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 02:51:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: VP Biden Called Wouter Bos (Labor Party) (none / 0)
We need to build lots of freeways, shopping malls and fast food outlets. That would make the place civilized.
by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Sun Feb 21st, 2010 at 10:47:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: VP Biden Called Wouter Bos (Labor Party) (4.00 / 3)
Afghanistan went off the rails in the 1970's. How many years do you think are needed to "creat[e] a reasonably stable Afghan state" after 30 years of instability and warfare?

Another myth American strategists subscribe to is that of nation-building, based on their delusional and self-serving belief that they are responsible for Japan's and Germany's post-WWII progress. Japan and Germany were highly civilised and sophisticated places to begin with and all the American did was weed out the fascists and provide material assistance for reconstruction.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 21st, 2010 at 12:19:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: VP Biden Called Wouter Bos (Labor Party) (none / 1)
The present day neocons are very much in the tradition of the 19th C Christian missionaries who traveled in the saddle bags of the European armies to being the gospel to the heathen. Today it's about bringing them the salvation  of western Democratic(TM) institutions.
by Richard Lyon (rllyon@gmail.com) on Sun Feb 21st, 2010 at 12:51:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: VP Biden Called Wouter Bos (Labor Party) (4.00 / 2)
all the American did was weed out the fascists and provide material assistance for reconstruction.

Well, that was something significant I'd say, even considering that it was half-done and looked haphazard on the ground. But what American strategists today subscribe to is 'nation-building' on the cheap, or just as PR measure; and that coupled with occupation on the small scale (with much less troops than after WWII).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Feb 22nd, 2010 at 04:41:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: VP Biden Called Wouter Bos (Labor Party) (none / 0)
People who have served in the US military who don't have to go along with current US military efforts for careerist reasons find them to be lunatic.

American Blitzkrieg: Loving the German War Machine to Death

Throughout our history, many Americans, especially frontline combat veterans, have known the hell of real war.  It's one big reason why, historically speaking, we've traditionally been reluctant to keep a large standing military.  But the Cold War, containment, and our own fetishizing of the German Wehrmacht changed everything. We began to see war not as a human-made disaster but as a creative science and art.  We began to seek "force multipliers" and total victory achieved through an almost Prussian mania for military excellence.

Reeling from a seemingly inexplicable and unimaginable defeat in Vietnam, the officer corps used Clausewitz to crawl out of its collective fog.  By reading him selectively and reaffirming our own faith in military professionalism and precision weaponry, we tricked ourselves into believing that we had attained mastery over warfare.  We believed we had tamed the dogs of war; we believed we had conquered Bellona, that we could make the goddess of war do our bidding.

We forgot that Clausewitz compared war not only to politics but to a game of cards. Call it the ultimate high-stakes poker match.  Even the player with the best cards, the highest stack of chips, doesn't always win.  Guile and endurance matter.  So too does nerve, even luck.  And having a home-table advantage doesn't hurt either. [...]

Unlike a devastated and demoralized Germany after its defeats, we decided not to devalue war as an instrument of policy after our defeat, but rather to embrace it.  Clasping Clausewitz to our collective breasts, we marched forward seeking new decisive victories.  Yet, like our role models the Germans of World War II, we found victory to be both elusive and illusive.

What I don't see is why a Swedish university student should buy into this American fantasy of warfare "as a creative science and art". I guess boys will be boys, no matter what country they live in:

I have a message for my younger self: put aside those menacing models of German tanks and planes. Forget those glowing accounts of Rommel and his Afrika Korps. Dismiss Blitzkrieg from your childish mind. There is no lightning war, America. There never was. And if you won't take my word for it, just ask the Germans.


A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns
by Alexander on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 03:00:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: VP Biden Called Wouter Bos (Labor Party) (none / 0)
Yawn...

That text makes absolutely no sense. In a way, it reminds me of the thinking of the American generals and politicians who until recently were in charge of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq: the idea that you could deal with the post-"war" phase, the insurgency, as if it was a conventional war. You can't and they failed. They are very differnt things, and the system-wide depression in the US armed forces after the Vietnam debacle didn't result in "lessons learned", instead it was decided that never more would the US fight a low intensity war. All eyes turned to the Fulda Gap.

If we for some reason want to involve the Wehrmacht(?!), the only thing I have to add is that the excellent speedy execution of the invasion of Iraq would have made even schnelle Heinz proud.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 03:08:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: VP Biden Called Wouter Bos (Labor Party) (none / 1)
It is a big questions whether a change in tactics can improve matters enough. The sticking point I have is that the Dutch have now been in Uruzgan for four years, and what do they get for it? We're just doing the rounds, and then leave. There is no strategic thought at any level to the Dutch mission.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 03:07:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: VP Biden Called Wouter Bos (Labor Party) (none / 0)
It is a big questions whether a change in tactics can improve matters enough.
That is indeed the question. With the Americans aboard at long last, we'll see what effect the implementation of sound tactics in the country as a whole will have. Maybe it will be enough. Maybe not. Only one way to find out.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 03:10:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: VP Biden Called Wouter Bos (Labor Party) (none / 0)
So, how many months do you give them to find out if there's a light at the end of the tunnel?
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 03:34:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: VP Biden Called Wouter Bos (Labor Party) (none / 0)
Well, that depends on the cost of the operation, in blood and treasure. The higher the cost, the shorter the time we have, and if the new tactics lower the cost we can try them for even longer. But say, give it a couple of years and see what happens.

People might feel a certain frustration that these low-intensity wars grind on for years, but the very reason they can do that is because they are low-intensity. A long grinding insurgency will end up about the same cost as a short sharp "real" war.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 03:47:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: VP Biden Called Wouter Bos (Labor Party) (none / 0)
I suppose this "we" in the name of which you speak is the so-called international community. I am sure that community is pleased to have such a well-trained spokesman.

It is not enough to have the discourse of empire rehearsed endlessly in the major newspapers and the cable news channels: it must also find expression in the most obscure of non-mainstream blogs.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 04:16:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: VP Biden Called Wouter Bos (Labor Party) (none / 1)
I'm not sure we're that obscure, we did help stop Blair. And we do want to be mainstream, as in my name's Paul Krugman, member of the extreme left, formerly known as the center.

Me being a spokesman for the "international community" is quite an hilarious idea, but in that vein, I wonder what forces you're knowingly or unwittingly a spokesman for? No matter which it is, I'm sure they're quite pleased.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 04:21:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: VP Biden Called Wouter Bos (Labor Party) (none / 0)
I speak for myself.

And if you use "we" to refer to the EuroTrib community, I resent your use of this pronoun, since I consider myself to be a member of this community, and have not seen you write anything that I would associate with the values I understand this blog to stand for.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 04:35:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: VP Biden Called Wouter Bos (Labor Party) (none / 0)
The writers of the ET do not produce officially sanctioned ET material. They often have differing opinions on many issues, as demonstrated in our often vigorous debates.

But I do insist on my belief that us ET'ers do not, as a community, want to be obscure and non-mainstream just for the sake of it.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 04:38:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: VP Biden Called Wouter Bos (Labor Party) (none / 0)
It wasn't my intention to ask a theoretical question. If we get to summer 2011 and things haven't improved enough to put down a timeline for withdrawal, we should see COIN as a failure.

The Dutch political process is unfortunately unhinged from the overall war effort. But it won't have too much impact in the face of the US buildup.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 04:20:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: VP Biden Called Wouter Bos (Labor Party) (none / 1)
Setting down public timelines for withdrawal is sure to be counterproductive, as it tells the opposition they just have to keep their heads down until then. Further, it's unlikely to see considerable changes in as short time as a year. It smack of quarter capitalism, no?

Still, there might very well be reasons why certain nations should not be involved in the war effort. If it creates huge political problems at home for the Dutch, they can always go home. It won't mean the end of COIN. I for one think the Swedish deployment in Afghanistan is bad policy, though for completely different reasons than the local peaceniks do.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 04:25:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
US AfPak Strategy (4.00 / 3)
.
I pretty much agree with the comments by Starvid. I'm no advocate of an extended war in Afghanistan, nor did I think the Iraq invasion was legal or wise. The original goal set after 9/11 was to destroy the leadership of Al Qaeda and the Taliban for harbouring foreign fighters with their 'religious zeal' and training camps. This should have been a deliberate and short campaign. With Bush and Neocon policy, we all know this went completely out of control. It probably was a mission impossible anyway. The focus was taken off Afghanistan and Pakistan never gave their full support. Holbrooke as special envoy, Obama and General McCrystal have taken months to formulate a new (exit) strategy (pdf). What Bush and Cheney have neglected for eight years is now happening in the AfPak theater of war. Even the issue with India (Kashmir) has become part of the negotiation to create a more stable region. No, a military victory will not be attainable, that's why negotiations are getting started with the Taliban for a political solution and end the military presence by ISAF, NATO and US forces in Afghanistan.

Chatham House - Conceptualizing AfPak: The Prospects and Perils (pdf)

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 05:02:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: US AfPak Strategy (4.00 / 2)
and end the military presence by ISAF, NATO and US forces in Afghanistan.

God, you have a fluent familiarity with the most obscure of the Empire's acronyms! What is EuroTrib coming to...

Here is what a British Pakistani has to say about Obama and AfPak:

From Palestine through Iraq to Iran, Obama has acted as just another steward of the American empire, pursuing the same aims as his predecessors, with the same means but with a more emollient rhetoric. In Afghanistan, he has gone further, widening the front of imperial aggression with a major escalation of violence, both technological and territorial. When he took office, Afghanistan had already been occupied by US and satellite forces for over seven years. During his election campaign Obama--determined to outdo Bush in prosecuting a `just war'--pledged more troops and fire-power to crush the Afghan resistance, and more ground intrusions and drone attacks in Pakistan to burn out support for it across the border. This is one promise he has kept. A further 30,000 troops are currently being rushed to the Hindu Kush. This will bring the us army of occupation close to 100,000, under a general picked by Obama for the success of his brutalities in Iraq, where his units formed a specialist elite in assassination and torture. Simultaneously, a massive intensification of aerial terror over Pakistan is under way. In what the New York Times delicately described as a `statistic that the White House has not advertised', it has informed its readers that `since Mr Obama came to office, the Central Intelligence Agency has mounted more Predator drone strikes into Pakistan than during Mr Bush's eight years in office'.

There is no mystery about the reason for this escalation. After invading Afghanistan in 2001, the US and its European auxiliaries imposed a puppet government of their own making, confected at a conference in Bonn, headed by a CIA asset and seconded by an assortment of Tajik warlords, with NGOs in attendance like page boys in a medieval court. This bogus construct never had the slightest legitimacy in the country, lacking even a modicum of the narrow but dedicated base the Taliban had enjoyed. [...]

[A]fter vehement denunciations of fraud by the highest functionary in Washington, and a pro forma second round of voting, Obama consummated the farce by congratulating Karzai on a victory more blatantly rigged even than Ahmadinejad's two months earlier, on which--in top Uriah Heep form--the US President had spared no stern words. Unlike the regime in Tehran, which retains an indigenous base in society, however diminished, what passes for government in Kabul is a Western implant that would disintegrate overnight without the NATO praetorians dispatched to protect it.

Tariq Ali: President of Cant

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 05:51:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You can love the guy ... (none / 0)
.
Tariq Ali a Trotskyist, he is not my cup of tea. I don't know what his beef is with Pakistan and the British Empire. He is from the Punjab, perhaps that explains a lot.

Tariq Ali: The Protocols of the Elders of Sodom

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 07:02:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: You can love the guy ... (none / 0)
I didn't know that Tariq Ali was a Trotskyist. When I read your comment, I thought that was an absurd charge, but then I read the Wikipedia article on him more carefully and saw that he was indeed a member of a Trotskyist party, and wrote a cartoon book on Trotsky. The article also describes him as a "former Marxist", so I think it is safe to say that he is a former Trotskyist as well. I have never been attracted to Trotskyism or Marxism, but I don't think that a person's at one point in his life having subscribed to one or both of those ideologies is sufficient grounds for dismissing anything he has to say today, while evidently you do. (This position does not hold for former Trotskyists who are now neocons, since those people exchanged one unacceptable antidemocratic ideology for another, thus not learning anything from their initial error.)

Needless to say, I find your attitude very primitive, although I am not surprised by it, given the naive views of the American military adventure in Iraq you expressed earlier.

"Person x is a y (Anti-Semite, Trotskyist, ...) so I don't have to bother providing you with any arguments for why x's position on z is wrong" is a line I associate more with DailyKos than with the EuroTrib, but it could be the case that having a less crude representative of the Empire as US President has lead to a degradation in intellectual rigor at EuroTrib.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 11:34:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Tariq Ali's Iraq Prophecy and 9/11 Hijackers (none / 1)
.
Just reacting to the content of his article, all the rest is background info. Perhaps some tunnel vision, staying with past. Of course, to Tariq Ali the 9/11 plane hijackers were freedom fighters. My wrong.

About Tariq Ali

An Advisory Board member for Iraq Occupation Watch, Ali is a supporter of the "resistance" in Iraq and has called for the killing of U.S. troops stationed there. Intimating that the 9/11 attacks had given America a taste of its own medicine, Ali made his goals explicit in the May-June 2003 issue of New Left Review. There, he forecast that "the invaders of Iraq will eventually be harried out of the country by a growing national reaction to the occupation regime they install."

[Out of sympathy for Stalinist Saddam Hussein? - Oui]

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Mon Feb 22nd, 2010 at 10:08:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Tariq Ali's Iraq Prophecy and 9/11 Hijackers (4.00 / 4)
Your source is DiscoverTheNetwork.org, which Sourcewatch describes thus
On February 15, 2005, Horowitz launched DiscoverTheNetwork, a website dedictated to tracking "leftists". It brings the Campus-Watch formula to the wider political arena. In the About Us section of the new website:
a "Guide to the Political Left." It identifies the individuals and organizations that make up the left and also the institutions that fund and sustain it; it maps the paths through which the left exerts its influence on the larger body politic; it defines the left's (often hidden) programmatic agendas and it provides an understanding of its history and ideas.[4]
Conversely, Sourcewatch is described by DiscoverTheNetwork.org as
A project of the Center for Media and Democracy (CMD), SourceWatch describes itself as an "encyclopedia of people, issues and groups shaping the public agenda." The subjects of these entries are individuals, issues, and organizations whose objectives and ideologies run the entire left-to-right political gamut.  

SourceWatch also seeks to expose what it calls the "propaganda activities of public relations firms" and the activities of organizations working "on behalf of corporations, governments and special interests." These "exposes," which tend to be critical of their subjects, deal predominantly with conservative entities.

Founded in 2003 under the name Disinfopedia, SourceWatch (which took its current name in 2005) reports that from April 2006 to April 2007 it received some 73 million page views. As of April 2007, the SourceWatch database contained more than 15,600 entries.

This is all so much fun...

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 22nd, 2010 at 10:20:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Damning ... (4.00 / 2)
.
Thanks, at least I did find a new link to the May-June 2003 issue of New Left Review.
I still need to read his referenced article.

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Mon Feb 22nd, 2010 at 10:36:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Damning ... (4.00 / 2)
I know it is a bit much to expect a fan of Horowitz to accept Tariq Ali as a source, but you'll agree it's going to be a little hard to get most people on this site to take Horowitz as a source.

So, is there a source that everyone involved in this debate will agree to accept? Somehow, I doubt it.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 22nd, 2010 at 10:46:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You should read it, at least for fun... (4.00 / 4)
It's a good one and even if you disagree with him, he is quite entertaining.

And, if you cannot link to an NLR article because of rights or protections please do not hesitate to send me word or email me and I will send or the article.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Mon Feb 22nd, 2010 at 04:48:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Tariq Ali's Iraq Prophecy and 9/11 Hijackers (4.00 / 3)
I'm relieved that you don't seem to have been offended by my frank language. To "intimat[e] that the 9/11 attacks had given America a taste of its own medicine" is not to imply that the 9/11 attackers were freedom fighters, however. I don't think anyone any reasonable person would call a group freedom fighters unless they were defending their own soil against foreign invaders. (Even Reagan called the resistance that the CIA was backing in Afghanistan "freedom fighters" because they were fighting against the Soviets, not because they were involved in some kind of ideological struggle for "freedom" in the sense of liberal democracy etc. [Oops! My bad. Reagan called the Contras "freedom fighters" as well.]) On the other hand, there is the saying "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."

Since you intend to read Ali's article, here are two other articles available for free at the NLR Web site which give a representative view of how the Left views things:

Perry Anderson, editorial: Jottings on the Conjuncture. This is mostly about the present geopolitical situation. Underlying this account is the view that neoliberalism is a specifically American project, a view which I think is quite correct.

Susan Watkins, editorial: Shifting Sands. This is a review of responses to the current economic crisis and the degree to which it has made people reconsider neoliberalism. In short, it has not, and what everyone is calling for is regulation, something which Watkins observes "is in fact a hard-line liberal economic concept".

Incidentally, Watkins, who has been the editor of the NLR since 2003, is the wife of Tariq Ali. (I only learnt that after I read this piece of hers in the current issue.) Perry Anderson was the editor directly before her.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Mon Feb 22nd, 2010 at 07:46:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why is being a Trotskyist (or a former one) (4.00 / 2)
worth bringing up in this context? Is this supposed to discredit him?

And how does being Punjabi somehow relevant?

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Sun Feb 21st, 2010 at 06:56:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Background and Tahira Mazhar Ali Khan (none / 0)
.
Tariq Ali's writing abilities and descriptions of Obama and the United States are extraordinary for a political reader: as 'a steward of the American empire', 'imperial aggression', 'US and satellite forces', 'Afghan resistance', 'aerial terror over Pakistan', 'European auxiliaries', 'page boys in a medieval court', 'NATO praetorians'. I provided some links to get clarification of his background and was positively surprised. I does appear to be cold war rhetoric of a time passed with the desintegration of the Soviet Union and it's satellite states. Japanese, British, French, German and Dutch colonialism and empire building are historic, but why this frame of reference today? How about Chinese imperialism, colonization, human rights abuse and capture of world's precious metals.      

Furthermore his claim of pre-war Afghanistan and Taliban's legitimacy 'as dedicated base the Taliban had enjoyed'. As an historian this article has plenty of creativity and freedom of impression.

Of course, Tariq Ali is a person with a special background as I read in wikipedia. Another link gave more personal information from an interview in May 2003: Islam, Empire and the Left: Conversation with Tariq Ali. Ali only discusses foreign policy in terms of empires and imperial wars. His heritage is the Punjab, divided between Pakistan and India after slaughter of wars. This must have been very personal and he chose a career of political activism, yet escaped death by traveling to Britain for his education. India and Pakistan haven't been able to iron out their differences over decades. Both nations lack stability due to internal terror groups, or in terms of Tarig Ali: freedom or resistence fighters. I guess when the US retaliates after some freedom fighters committed the terror acts of 9/11, the US is accused of "imperial aggression." Reading the biography and the activism of his mother, yes I can believe in the struggle for workers rights in Pakistan and the communist support for an independence.

[Links provided to put Ali's one-sided rant in a bit of perspective, especially his view of the Taliban as 'freedom fighters' and the US as 'imperial aggressors' - Oui]

Wikipedia Tariq Ali

EARLY LIFE
Ali was born and raised in Lahore. The city was part of British India at the time of his birth in 1943, but became part of the newly-independent nation of Pakistan four years later. He is the son of journalist Mazhar Ali Khan and activist mother Tahira Mazhar Ali Khan (daughter of Sir Sikandar Hyat Khan who led the Unionist Muslim League and was later Prime Minister of the Punjab in 1937).

Ali's parents "both came from a very old, crusty, feudal family". His father had broken with the family's conventions in politics when he was a student, adopting communism, nationalism and atheism. Ali's mother also belonged to the same family, and became radicalized upon meeting his father. However, Ali was taught the fundamentals of Islam in order to be able to argue against it.

EMERGING ACTIVISM
While studying at the Punjab University, he organized demonstrations against Pakistan's military dictatorship. Ali's uncle was chief of Pakistan's Military Intelligence. His parents sent him to England to study at Exeter College, Oxford, where he studied Philosophy, Politics, and Economics. He was elected President of the Oxford Union, in 1965.

CAREER
His public profile began to grow during the Vietnam War, when he engaged in debates against the war with such figures as Henry Kissinger and Michael Stewart. As time passed, Ali became increasingly critical of American and Israeli foreign policies, and emerged as a figurehead for critics of American foreign policy across the globe. He was also a vigorous opponent of American relations with Pakistan that tended to back military dictatorships over democracy.

Separation of India and Punjab

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Sun Feb 21st, 2010 at 05:02:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A lot of argument by moral outrage going on here (4.00 / 5)
Calling the Taliban the resistance is factually correct. If the Nazis had got their werewolf program up and running they would have been the resistance. Country gets occupied, whoever takes up arms is the resistance. No morality involved.
by generic on Sun Feb 21st, 2010 at 06:58:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In Tribal Areas Northwest Frontier (none / 0)
.
The civilians have no realisation of "terror" as these are very hospitable persons to all foreigners, especially al-Qaeda fighters. They welcome the Taliban because of their fundamental believe in the Islam, sharia law, rape of women and destruction of schools for girls. They are so medieval, their daily lives can be summed up as .... terror. Oh, are the Taliban mullahs the best what can happen to the NWF and Afghan people? My wrong.  

Obama resetting the sights of drone attacks

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Mon Feb 22nd, 2010 at 08:52:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: In Tribal Areas Northwest Frontier (none / 0)
They are assholes. So?
by generic on Mon Feb 22nd, 2010 at 09:50:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, the majority of them are. (none / 1)
Like the majority of white American males are.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Mon Feb 22nd, 2010 at 04:54:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
no realisation of "terror" (none / 1)
Question: who is responsible for popularizing the term shock and awe to describe their own tactics? (Hint: it's not the Taliban)

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 22nd, 2010 at 10:30:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe you have lived in the NWFP as well. (4.00 / 5)
If you have, I can see where you can say such things. I think them sometimes too and to be honest, Pathans, especially the women, do too.

Not all Pathans are as this. And not all Pakistanis of course are Pathans.

And especially, not all Muslims are as this. Having spent a lot of time there I too have to fight this.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Mon Feb 22nd, 2010 at 04:53:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Background and Tahira Mazhar Ali Khan (4.00 / 3)
What world do you live in? Are you denying that America is an empire and that it has hegemonic influence over Europe?

During Bush 2's presidency, America came to be openly described as an empire across the political spectrum, and not just negatively:

In my days as a student activist in the 1970s, the use of the term "imperialism" to describe US policy was generally used only in the antiwar and international solidarity movements, the writings of left-wing academics or the newspapers of small socialist splinter groups. Three decades later, the notion of American empire is gaining a degree of mainstream respectability, this time promoted by a strange convergence of right-wing unilateralists and humanitarian interventionists who see unbridled American power as the last, best hope for building a more stable world.

The most egregious recent example of this trend was the glaring red, white and blue cover story in the New York Times Magazine of January 5, "American Empire (Get Used to It)," in which Michael Ignatieff suggests that Americans are in "deep denial" over their country's imperial role and are therefore ill equipped to understand a central reality of our brave new post-9/11 world.

Not just Tariq Ali, but just about anyone who gets published in the New Left Review considers America to be an empire. So do liberals like Chalmers Johnson and Sheldon Wolyn, whose concept of inverted totalitarianism was diaried here recently.

And why do you find the phrase "aerial terror over Pakistan" "extraordinary"? Why do you think the unmanned drones are called "Predators" and what they fire called "Hellfire" missiles? The Pentagon's own names are meant to evoke terror.

I really find it hard to understand where you're coming from.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Sun Feb 21st, 2010 at 07:04:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Background and Tahira Mazhar Ali Khan (none / 0)
So how does the US exert its "hegemonic" influence over Euopre? What the US essentially does is spend more on defence so we don't have to, without it really giving them any influence over internal European affairs. I'm not complaining about that.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Feb 22nd, 2010 at 01:42:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Background and Tahira Mazhar Ali Khan (4.00 / 5)
So how does the US exert its "hegemonic" influence over Euopre?

WHy, getting us into Afghanistan. Divide-and-rule with bilateral treaties. Telling 'partners' which way to go in NATO. It's not working that good recently, though -- even if the Europeans practise sabotage instead of some own policy.

spend more on defence so we don't have to

Nothing the US military spends on is something we would have to: most of it is total waste, the rest imperial folly for adventures not serving defense or even counter-acting it with the blowback. This is just talk to get the vassals more pliant. And give more orders to the Mil-Ind complex.

any influence over internal European affairs

So why had separate EU military structures to be opposed so steadfastly?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Feb 22nd, 2010 at 04:51:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Via our policy elites. A cursory scan of any (4.00 / 4)
given day's FT gives a good inkling of the mechanism(s).

It is not obvious that US defence spending makes the EU anty safer; in fact, one could say, given the instablity the US causes with its military, due to its actions near our (not their) borders, quite the opposite is the case.

Sweden may not spend much on its defence. Here in France, we spend plenty. Speaking of larger Europe rather than just the EU, the Russians spend plenty, as does the UK. Not everyone is a free-rider ;-)

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Mon Feb 22nd, 2010 at 06:15:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Background and Tahira Mazhar Ali Khan (4.00 / 5)
descriptions of Obama and the United States extraordinary for a political reader: as 'a steward of the American empire', 'imperial aggression', 'US and satellite forces', 'Afghan resistance', 'aerial terror over Pakistan', 'European auxiliaries', 'page boys in a medieval court', 'NATO praetorians'.

I don't find any of those extraordinary -- you are in denial.

* Steward of the American empire: as nanne wrote, Obama is an American exceptionalist like any other.

Renewing American Leadership | Foreign Affairs

After Iraq, we may be tempted to turn inward. That would be a mistake. The American moment is not over, but it must be seized anew...

* 'aerial terror over Pakistan': how else do do you call 'targeted assasinations' with heavy civilian toll in a country not even officially at war? And it's not just Pakistan, just the other day:


Nato airstrike kills 33 civilians in Afghanistan - Times Online

Initial reports indicated that Nato attacked a convoy of three vehicles on Sunday as they travelled towards Kandahar. The dead included four women and one child and 12 others were injured.

Amanullah Hotak, head of the Uruzgan provincial council, said that the people had been travelling in three mini-buses through a pass in the Char Cheno district.

Zamari Bashary, a spokesman for the Afghan Interior Ministry, said: "Isaf troops were suspicious that several civilian vehicles contained insurgents and bombed them."

The Afghanistan Council of Ministers strongly condemned the airstrike, saying it was "unjustifiable".



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Feb 22nd, 2010 at 05:10:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I rather like Tariq Ali (4.00 / 5)
and, having spent a fair bit of time in Pakistan during one of those American-supported dictatorships (Zia al-Haq) I am not unsympathetic to his view of the US-Pakistan hegemon-client relationship. Additionally, his criticisms of Islam seem to me to be exactly what is in order : rational, cogent and certainly not the racist "fear of brown people" cant one hears from those who do not have his background. I particularly enjoyed, in this light, his simultaneous criticism of American protestant universalism and Islamic radicalism in "Clash of the Civilisations," and he is a longtime contributor to the New Left Review and I always look forward to reading his contributions there. Of course, his politics are left, and his father was a communist, which is to say in Pakistan, given his class origins, he was a good and honest man.

Being a Punjabi would colour his worldview as regards Pakistan only insofar as he did not likely have, like a Baluch or a Pathan, any clan or family relationship to Afghanistan. The same would be true were he to have been a Sindhi or to a bit less extent a Kashmiri. But this is to say he is more objective as regards Afghanistan, not less; were he to have been an Afridi from the Mardan area I would worry more that his intimate relations and interests in Afghanistan would colour his view of the conflict, than being from Punjab where he would not have a similar interested viewpoint.

 

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Mon Feb 22nd, 2010 at 06:11:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: You can love the guy ... (none / 1)
Tariq Ali a Trotskyist, he is not my cup of tea.

Okay, with the ad-hominems out of the way, how is what he says wrong on the facts?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 21st, 2010 at 12:10:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: You can love the guy ... (4.00 / 3)
It was British Trotskyists who managed to organise the million-strong nati-Iraq-War protest in London, too.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Feb 22nd, 2010 at 05:30:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: US AfPak Strategy (4.00 / 2)
have taken months to formulate a new (exit) strategy (pdf).

...which could barely cover up the realisation of FUBAR. They don't really know what to do...

Barack Obama 'to reject Afghanistan war options in favour of plan with clear exit strategy' - Telegraph

According to US reports, it is not the first time he has asked for the four options thought to have been presented to him to be rewritten and he is putting up considerable resistance to the strategy put forward by the Gen Stanley McChrystal, the US Nato commander in Afghanistan, to increase troop numbers by 40,000 for a counterinsurgency drive.

Other options on the table include sending between 10,000 and 15,000 troops who will focus on training Afghan forces.

The latest development came as it emerged that the US Ambassador in Kabul, Gen Karl Eikenberry, has told Mr Obama that a surge of troops was "not a good idea" unless the Afghan government suceeded in reining in the corruption which spurred the Taliban insurgency.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Feb 22nd, 2010 at 05:27:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: VP Biden Called Wouter Bos (Labor Party) (4.00 / 2)
You're caught in vague generalities and talking points when it comes to discussing whether there should ever be consequences for the war effort. How many months before we know whether COIN has worked? It's a simple question. It'll have been at least 24 in summer 2011.

The notion that setting a timeline for withdrawal would give the enemy an incentive to just lay low for a while has already done the rounds in the US debate over this 'transition' in 2011. It's silly. If the Taliban would lay low they'd help the central goverment build up its capacity and legitimacy. So I don't think they'd have an incentive. I also don't think it's their mentality to relent. Or to put that differently: that they'd have the strategic coherence to pull it off.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 05:53:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nah (4.00 / 5)
the Dutch Labor Party (PvdA) will pay dearly at the polls for this poor decision.

Labour would be butchered anyway, they've long lost any popularity as a governing party. It will depend on the best spun narrative who will carry "blame" for the Balkenende IV demise. As the poll I previously linked to indicates that more people perceive the CDA as the guilty party. I've no love left for Verhagen or Balk, I hope they own their abject display of non-governance.

As my favourite columnist Marc Chavannes named his column of this morning: "The cabinet that never started, is finally over". Amen to that.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 02:00:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Too bad its Wilders, not Kant, who will be the (none / 1)
main beneficiary of this collapse. I think people throughout the EU and even in North America are starting to see that "Third Way" is intellectually bankrupt in theory and results in poor governance and outcomes, in terms of their interests, in practise...

What I'd like to see is an examination of the resulting judgements.  Perhaps too close, still, from the fall of the Wall, thus a Wilders and not Kant, though the last legislatives in NL certainly led to a lot of dreaming...

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Sun Feb 21st, 2010 at 06:55:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In my perspective (4.00 / 2)
the only way for a return to better social-democrats in the Netherlands, is by making it worse. That road leads inevitably to a character like Wilders. It could've come earlier were it not for the assassination of Fortuyn.

Bos has publicly renounced the "Third Way" earlier this year in an annual speech. Yet I still feel he doesn't "get" what a return to social roots would mean. So your analysis applies for the Dutch Labour party as well, methinks.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Sun Feb 21st, 2010 at 07:29:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: In my perspective (4.00 / 2)
I find the "worse before it gets better" approach to progressive politics extremely stupid. How many times does it need to end in "worse before it gets worse still" before people will give up the notion?

The fact that the SP will lose a lot mainly has to do with the unusual number of seats they have now and the personal charisma of Agnes Kant.

A lot of the elections in the Netherlands will turn on meta issues and personal signalling. In that sense showing some backbone might be the game changer for Bos and the PvdA.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sun Feb 21st, 2010 at 08:03:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is Agnes Kant considered not charismatic? (none / 1)
I confess to feeling the opposite. Hell, when she speaks it even makes Dutch sound beautiful!

But seriously, is it that in NL she is not considered a draw? I see that both PS and Labor are falling (as are the Christian Democrats) with the extremist Liberal parties doing quite well. Wonder if there is an historical connexion with the move to ultra-liberalism in times of tumult and instability in NL.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Sun Feb 21st, 2010 at 10:00:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Is Agnes Kant considered not charismatic? (4.00 / 4)
Marijnissen's shoes are big to fill for anyone in terms of charisma. Kant is generally perceived as too sour. The bigger problem is that she can't convey a blue collar attitude, which Marijnissen excelled at, and which would be the only personal way to distinguish her party from the overly intellectual leadership of GroenLinks and the PvdA.

There's a lot of choice on the left! Even the Animal Party for those who feel that GroenLinks isn't a sufficiently particular issue party.

For the SP there's the option of campaigning as a party but there are too many intellectuals in the SP in general. So they're probably going to lose half their seats. 12 seats is still not a historically bad result for the party.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sun Feb 21st, 2010 at 01:36:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Voters on Drift and Opposition Popularity (4.00 / 5)
.
It has been always easier to be in opposition and gain plenty of seats; once in a coalition, the same number of seats evaporate. Fortuyn appealed to the silent minority of a populist movement, many of whom had never before cast a vote. Fortuyn's list was unable to produce candidates of minimal quality. He himself was aware of it, just in the local election of 2002, his affiliated party Leefbaar Rotterdam got one third of the vote in Rotterdam. This came at a cost to the Labor Party PvdA.

SP basically came forward from strong local politics and strongman Jan Marijnissen build the Socialist Party to national prominence. Agnes Kant or anyone else, could never expect to keep those same voters and seats. Try to look at the historic division of voters: 40% Labor and socialists (left), 35% Christian Democrats and tiny parties (center) and 25% Liberal Democrats and parties to the right. It's clear how most coalitions were formed.

New parties of populists movements are created, expand and implode. In the past, such a party did well and gained 5% of the vote or 8 seats. Fortuyn upset the old balance by gaining nearly 20% and some 26 seats. The election in May 2002 was one that we'll never see again: Liberals VVD and Labor PvdA decimated and very surprising Christian Democrats from opposition role with a young, new leader Balkenende getting 43 seats.

After the attacks og 9/11, the murders of Pim Fortuyn and Theo van Gogh has truly caused the voters to drift. The election results are highly unpredictable and the polls never concur. At the moment, criticism is an easy attribute in politics: economic recession and difficult choice on social issues to be made for a coming generation. Once the campaign gets underway and the television debates have started, the true preference of voters will become somewhat visible. Historically, 25% of the voters will make their choice in the voter booth! Plenty of surprises will be possible. A previous ally of Gert Wilders is Rita Verdonk. Her one-woman party had polled 10% before, now she will find it difficult to earn her own seat in parliament. On the left side, the Liberal Party D'66 have made a stunning recovery in the polls: 12% or 18 seats.

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Sun Feb 21st, 2010 at 02:17:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you for this, very helpful. (4.00 / 3)
I knew the SP had especially emphasized local politics first, which tend to produce more disciplined candidates in future, but I also know them to be somewhat geographically concentrated in that regard, and wonder if difficulty in finding good candidates has to do with those places they are not strong.

Also, SP's stances on immigration were rather well aligned with working class interests, unlike the socialist and social democratic parties of other countries as in mine, and wonder if some of the (shall we say casual) electorate of the SP last time around are bleeding to Wilders. Which would be unfortunate...but there I could see the confidence and charisma question working if indeed Kant is not seen as credible among this section of voters (and indeed I see she is often portrayed as "German-born")

Confess to understanding little of the "liberal" left and so the D'66 thing goes completely over my head.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Sun Feb 21st, 2010 at 05:30:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Thank you for this, very helpful. (4.00 / 2)
.
The ideology of D66 is a highly contested subject within the party. The question is tied to the reason for its existence.
There are two currents within the party: the radical democrats and the progressive liberals.

Wikipedia: Election results D'66

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Sun Feb 21st, 2010 at 09:17:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes (4.00 / 3)
SP votes are bleeding to Wilders, little doubts about it. This should hardly be any wonder when you compare both parties and what problems they address. Add the charisma question and it´s a done deal.

Working class interests in this country can result in rather... provincial perspectives. The outside world is just that: an outside world. Both the SP and Wilders play into this effectively.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Mon Feb 22nd, 2010 at 03:41:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The way I see it (none / 1)
there's no other way than down. We've been on this road since 2002. Fortuyn still rules this country beyond the grave.

Labour will have to re-create itself before we can even speculate about progressive politics again. Some change in the air of that, but there is no guarantee at all it will take root. And I have no faith this will happen with Bos at the helm.

So Labour will have to be squashed. And with GreenLeft and SP not gaining, this  means that the worst parties come to political power first.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Sun Feb 21st, 2010 at 04:56:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: The way I see it (none / 1)
There have been a lot of ups and downs since 2002. The PvdA was once just two seats removed from being the biggest party again. This indicates the extent to which the electorate is in flux, as oui also pointed out.

I think the outcome of the elections will largely be a result of the dynamics of the campaign. But we'll see. If the PvdA starts polling around the same number of seats as the CDA and Wilders again the dynamic will at some point shift to "who will lead the new government" and there they should be able to edge out both.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sun Feb 21st, 2010 at 05:58:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Perhaps (4.00 / 3)
These are good points, but I was under the impression you were talking about progressive politics. And all the PvdA has done the past 2 years is stemming the bleeding of the previous 6. Plus hitch up the retirement age with 2 years. With respect to progressive politics, there is zero to nought to report.

A large national PvdA does not equate with progressive politics at this point.

The best we may actually hope for coming national elections just might be a return to "Purple" - a PvdA, VVD, D66 tripartite. Were that to happen, the misery will just continue for another 8 years give or take - within a Purple alliance the PvdA can simply continue the current line of Third Way thinking.

And never mind that the local elections will lose its last smidgen of local colour, and become entirely predominated by national narratives. For democracy it is dismal.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Mon Feb 22nd, 2010 at 03:23:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Perhaps (4.00 / 3)
What we need is a progressive government (D66/PvdA/GroenLinks/SP). Obviously that's not happening right now in the polls (they'd have around 60-65 seats together) but that doesn't mean we shouldn't push for it.

The political climate can change very quickly, that remains the largest opportunity for the left.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Mon Feb 22nd, 2010 at 10:50:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Latest Dutch Poll (none / 0)
.
PPV    27  +3
VVD    15  -2
CDA    31  -1
CU      7  -1
D'66   16  -2
PvdA   27  +6
Greens 11   0
TON     2  -2

Poll

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Fri Feb 26th, 2010 at 04:24:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
McCain: Repercussions as Dutch Leave (4.00 / 2)
.
McCain: Plan to lose Dutch in Afghanistan

(Army Times) - The U.S. "ought to plan" for a 2,000-troop shortfall in Afghanistan because the Netherlands will likely withdraw its forces by August, Sen. John McCain said Monday.

The shortfall came into focus at a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing in light of the Dutch government's collapse Saturday due to the war in Afghanistan's unpopularity in the Netherlands. Dutch Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende could not find enough support to extend the presence of Dutch troops in Afghanistan beyond an already planned August deadline.

Under questioning by McCain, R-Ariz., Defense Undersecretary Michele Flournoy said "we will have to see" whether the next Dutch government will agree to send troops to augment NATO's plans to drive the Taliban insurgency from southern Afghanistan in coming months. McCain fired back that the U.S. should plan for their withdrawal, since the government's collapse was caused by the war's unpopularity.

"We might as well face up to the fact ... that the Dutch are leaving," McCain said. "That's why their government collapsed. ... I'm grateful for their participation. I have great sympathy for the losses they sustained.

U.S. official sees chance Dutch stay in Afghanistan

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Tue Feb 23rd, 2010 at 12:53:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Dutch Uruzgan Mission (none / 0)
.
Dutch deaths in Uruzgan declining as troops level increased

2006   4
2007   8
2008   6 (son of Dutch Commander Ulm)
2009   3

Overall 2009 was the deadliest year for coalition forces in Afghanistan. Coalition military fatalities increased from 295 in 2008 to 520 in 2009. Main brunt taken by the US troops.

The Dutch must have been doing their job quite effectively, see my links in diary.

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Sat Feb 20th, 2010 at 05:22:54 PM EST
Re: Dutch Uruzgan Mission (none / 0)
You measure efficiency by number of casualties?... Hunkering down in bases will reduce casualties.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Feb 22nd, 2010 at 05:43:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hunkering Is Not Dutch Policy (4.00 / 3)
.
Hunkering inside bases is not Dutch military policy in Uruzgan, nor was it in al-Muthanna, Iraq. Much to the contrary, famous were the Dutch patrols without helmets. The Dutch invest in taking part in the local community and talks with civilian leadership. They got rid of the by Karzai implanted corrupt governor Jan Mohammed Khan. Dutch troops security is interchanged with serving the local people with civilian projects. No, as I wrote above in diary, the successful policy of defence, development & diplomacy (the 3-D approach), is necessary if sustainable peace, freedom and development are to be achieved.

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Mon Feb 22nd, 2010 at 07:24:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hunkering Is Not Dutch Policy (none / 1)
They got rid of the by Karzai implanted corrupt governor Jan Mohammed Khan.

Hm?

Jan Mohammed Khan - Wikipedia

In March 2006, President Karzai replaced Khan as governor with Abdul Hakim Munib. Khan took a senior position in the Ministry of Tribal & Border Affairs but continued to meddle in Oruzgan's politics, stirring instability, and seeking through his local allies to undermine the authority of Governor Munib. In August 2006, the Dutch (as part of NATO's ISAF mission) took over from the U.S. the military command of Oruzgan province. Through mid-2007, the Dutch troops had not made a significant impact on Taliban-generated instability in Oruzgan. This, coupled with the Dutch refusal to engage in anti-poppy programs to eradicate the province's enormous opium poppy crop, precluded success in stabilizing Oruzgan. As a result, some Dutch pundits and newspapers began calling for Jan Mohammed Khan's return as governor, hoping that despite his illiteracy, corruption, and violence, that he could forcibly stabilize the province and turn the Dutch mission into a success.


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Feb 23rd, 2010 at 04:14:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hunkering Is Not Dutch Policy (none / 1)
Upthread, Oui links to another good article on Uruzgan, to prove that even if they haven't ousted it, Dutch troops don't work with Jan Mohammed Khan. Then again, how can success be achieved with such allies:

Doing the bidding of organised crime

Several analysts who have spent time on the ground in Oruzgan discerned a sharp policy difference between the Dutch and the Americans, more often than not backed by the Australians. The Dutch understood the need to map the conflict. "It's not a simple question of 'good' and 'evil'," one said. "But the Australians just want to go after 'bad' guys.

"The Americans work with Jan Mohammed - they fight together and the US uses Jan's militia. The Dutch don't work with them. The Australians are not so nuanced - they seem to take their lead from Jan Mohammed on what are local problems and who is or isn't the Taliban. The Australians are a military force and that's how they see the conflict."

Then again, the article also claims:

Running with the local strongmen and failing to effectively reach out to the marginalised - a failure of Australians and Dutch in Oruzgan - misses the point of counter-insurgency mantra about protecting locals. All locals.

(This might have been a slip, however, the author might have meant Americans.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 23rd, 2010 at 10:00:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Hunkering Is Not Dutch Policy (4.00 / 2)
Some more Uruzgan.

NATO Confronts Surprisingly Fierce Taliban - washingtonpost.com

Washington Post Foreign Service
Tuesday, February 26, 2008

...But the day after Rietdijk arrived in Afghanistan, his field officers reported hundreds of villagers suddenly fleeing parts of Deh Rawood. "Within a few weeks, everybody was gone," Rietdijk said. "We didn't understand why."

Now the Dutch say they realize what happened. Even as the soldiers believed they had won the support of the local population, the Taliban had secretly returned to reclaim Deh Rawood, home district of the group's revered leader, Mohammad Omar. It took only a few months for the Taliban to undermine nearly six years of intelligence work by U.S. forces and almost two years of goodwill efforts by Dutch soldiers.

Australia Says Children Died in Skirmish With Taliban - NYTimes.com

KABUL, Afghanistan -- Five children were killed in predawn fighting on Thursday between Australian special operations troops and Taliban guerrillas in south central Afghanistan, the Australian military said, the latest episode of civilian casualties that have hurt support for American and NATO troops here.

The skirmish, which occurred in darkness in a village called Sarmorghab in Oruzgan Province, north of the southern city of Kandahar, was condemned by the provincial governor, Assadullah Hamdam, who said it would have a "negative effect" on relations between Afghans and foreign troops in the country. He offered a different casualty toll, saying three children had been killed and four wounded after a sustained firefight. He said provincial officials had already pleaded with troops not to carry out raids where civilians were present.

Yesterday's careless 'targeted' assassination of a civilian travelling group was in Uruzgan, too. With a black irony:

American Chronicle | Afghan cabinet condemns NATO air strike that killed civilians

This latest round of civilian deaths came just hours after Karzai stood in the Afghan parliament and demanded that his people stop dying from coalition fire.

"We need to reach the point where there are no civilian casualties," he said.

"Our effort and our criticism will continue until we reach that goal."

A senior United Nations official echoed Karzai's plea.

"In addition to the tragic loss of life, trust in the intentions of the international military forces in Afghanistan will suffer greatly if military forces do not take more care to protect Afghan lives," Canadian Robert Watkins, the deputy special representative of the secretary general, said in a statement.

Indeed, as more civilians fall to NATO fire, so too does Afghans' support for the military mission meant to bring stability to the troubled country.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Feb 23rd, 2010 at 09:48:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Bah (none / 0)
If you want to couple number of casualties to activity in the field, then show me those kind of stats before making the kind of commentary that only shows you know little of the Dutch activities in Uruzgan.
by Nomad (Bjinse) on Mon Feb 22nd, 2010 at 08:28:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Bah (none / 1)
If you want to couple number of casualties to activity in the field

No, I want to decouple the number of casualties from "success" in a peacekeeping/nation-building mission. I didn't mean to actually suggest that Dutch troops hunkered down.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Feb 22nd, 2010 at 07:52:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Taliban Attacks Increased in 2009 (none / 0)
.
Taliban Tries to Sow Chaos before Election

Aug. 18, 2009 - The election has given the Taliban new incentive to throw the country into chaos. With the election looming, the Taliban have increased their number of attacks from 32 a day to 48.

The Taliban can hold down voter turnout. From a CBS correspondent:

"What you have to remember about Afghanistan is that it is a vast country with a majority of the country living in remote rural areas, so even if the Taliban just block off one road, it can stop an entire village from reaching the polling station and that could have a significant impact on election day."

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Mon Feb 22nd, 2010 at 09:02:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Informed Comment on the Dutch and Uruzgan (none / 1)
.
Five Questions for the Afghan Surge;
Or, Getting Past the Hype by Juan Cole

2. Can the demonstration of vitality and of a sense of progress mollify NATO publics long enough
to fight a prolonged war and do intensive training of troops and police over several years?

No. Over the weekend, the center-right government of the Netherlands fell over whether to keep Dutch troops in Afghanistan. The Afghanistan war is universally unpopular in continental Europe, and governments have troops there mostly in the teeth of popular opposition, because NATO invoked article 5 of its charter, 'an attack on one is an attack on all' with regard to the Taliban and al-Qaeda in Afghanistan after the September 11, 2001, attacks. It may take months after the next elections this spring for the Dutch to form a new government, in part because of the surging popularity of the far-right populist anti-Muslim 'Freedom Party' of Islamophobe Geert Wilders -- a smelly party the others will probably not want in their coalition. Holland's 2000 troops are likely to be withdrawn by late summer.

● NATO HQ in Brussels on decision by the Dutch

"But I will not let myself be reduced to silence."

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Mon Feb 22nd, 2010 at 12:40:02 PM EST
Dutch Cabinet Falls Over Uruzgan Mission | 115 comments (115 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)


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