Europe is doomed because Germany has too small an army!

by Jerome a Paris Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 04:09:09 AM EST

In an explicitly titled story (The Incredible Shrinking Europe), Time magazine gives us in a nice summary of all that's wrong with Europe and Europeans: they talk too much, they have too many different institutions, and they (and more specifically Germany) are unwilling to use their armies to back their (also incoherent) diplomacy. Thus, they are unserious and "underperform" on the word stage.

And of course, there is this:

Workers in Europe usually enjoy long vacations, generous maternity leave and comfortable pension schemes. Universal health insurance is seen as part of the basic social contract. Europe is politically stable, the most generous donor of development aid in the world. Sure, taxes can be high, but most Europeans seem happy to pay more to the state in return for a higher — and guaranteed — quality of life.

Yes, that's the real problem, isn't it? Happy to pay more to the State? [Europe.Is.Doomed™ Alert] !!

Europe is doomed because Germany has too small an army! | 40 comments (40 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Europe is doomed (4.00 / 8)

Americans have a stunning problem with seeing the dynamics by which Europe functions. Since EU paradigms are based on EU history, which Americans have no experience with, most of them have no clue how things work here or what life is like here, or what peoples values are. I doubt America will ever get it...

btw I used this in one of my business English classes here... the reaction was pretty much, what are those idiots talking about... now they WANT us to have a stronger military and more aggressive foreign policy?? WTF????

Life is not a dress rehearsal

by johnfire (johnfire@christopherrehm.com) on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 05:04:57 AM EST

Re: Europe is doomed (4.00 / 8)

I think Americans and Europeans both suffer from the delusion that the US and Europe are more similar than they actually are. Something like Churchill's "Britain and America are two nations divided by a common language".

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 05:08:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe is doomed (4.00 / 5)

good point. and very true. having lived here now for 4 years, in Germany and Switzerland its very clear that the cultures are totally different. really different underlying value systems. but there is something unique about americans that blinds them to the rest of the world, and that is the ingrained american notion that somehow in spite of our flaws america is the greatest country in the world. it isnt. as soon as most americans are confronted with data that proves it they start to have something of a breakdown because it shatters a deeply held false myth that america is the greatest country ever. i dont expect america to change, and i dont think the rest of the world should waste anymore time on expecting america to dig the world out of the current situation. it isnt going to happen, rather , i think america will basically go broke in a few years and split up...

Life is not a dress rehearsal

by johnfire (johnfire@christopherrehm.com) on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 06:00:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe is doomed (4.00 / 4)

I have seen many Americans go through that sort of "breakdown" in the Bush years. Starting with anger and denial, of course.

The question is what consequences the Obama presidency will have. It seems like in 2008 he allowed people to believe it was all a bad dream that would soon be over (well, some people - for some others a Black president with a muslim name was proof positive of the endtimes). What if people become disenchanted? And, are the teabaggers going through the same breakdown as the progressives did 8 years ago?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 06:08:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe is doomed (4.00 / 2)

i expect that at some point the dollar will collapse and the american govt will be bankrupt. at that point everything breaks down, america goes into the worst depression the world has ever seen( its heading there already.. trust me) and civil unrest breaks out. it could be a neo fascist type takes over and reorders the american way of life, or it could just devolve into another civil war( far more likely than most europeans realize, as the differences between the rural and industrial states culturally are much larger than most euros realize) and eventually balkanizes into 6 to 10 smaller countries...

Life is not a dress rehearsal

by johnfire (johnfire@christopherrehm.com) on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 06:12:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe is doomed (4.00 / 5)

at some point the dollar will collapse and the american govt will be bankrupt

The US doesn't have much debt (public or private) denominated in currencies other than the US Dollar, so the government can only go bankrupt if the Fed makes the political decision to let it go bankrupt.

However, the US is a net importer so a collapse of the dollar would be painful for consumers.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 06:24:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe is doomed (4.00 / 4)

a deeply held false myth that america is the greatest country ever

Not just "a" myth. I think that has claim to being the US' national myth.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 06:09:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe is doomed (4.00 / 17)

It's not so strange that they didn't get it. You need to translate the newspeak first. And that is not surprising, since it really is a masterpiece of the art. The use of "Related Articles" is particularly elegant, and may signify a new development in the net-savvy of professional astroturfers.

In the spirit of improved international understanding, permit me to provide a handy guide:

Make the European Union more efficient at home and stronger abroad.		Provide Europe with a phone number that Kissinger could call when he wanted the Europe to do something.
a newly emboldened world power stepping up to calm trouble spots, using aid and persuasion where it could, but prepared to send in troops when it had to.		Playing good-cop, bad-cop with the US State Department where that could work, and footing part of the bill for American colonial wars when the uppity natives didn't play ball.
At the climate change conference in Copenhagen in December, it was China and the U.S. who haggled over a final deal, while Europe sat on the sidelines.		All international action still has to involve the US, no matter how much they drag their heels and fail to take meaningful action. And if somebody looks like he won't play ball, they'll find a way to torpedo the initiative.
Whether or not to bail out Greece, whose debt has dragged down Europe's currency.		[Europe.Is.Doomed™ Alert]
Little wonder that Europe finds itself in one of its periodic bouts of angst-ridden self-doubt.		Thinking is for wussies. Real Men^TM Stay The Course^TM.
Where does it fit into a world that seems set to be dominated by China and the U.S.?		Neutrality is for wimps. Pick a goddamn power bloc already, or start making your own colonial wars.
Would anyone notice if it disappeared? (See pictures of immigration in Europe.)		[Europe.Is.Doomed™ Alert] because Europe lets in so many brown people who speak funny. And everybody knows that brown people who speak funny are here to take our wives and hate our freedoms.
Charles Grant, director of the London-based think tank Centre for European Reform.		Tory Bliar's Poodle at the belief tank Centre for European Thirdworldization.
But the good life at home doesn't make Europe strong abroad.		Neutrality is for wimps.
On the grand stage it has lacked the weight and influence of others.		How many divisions does the EU have?
At times, it simply seems unable to say what it thinks.		At times, it simply seems unable to say what we want it to think.
the U.S. has a reasonably well-articulated China policy		Having finally woken up to the reality that China is a serious Great Power (after about fifty years of pretending that it sorta didn't exist), we now have a clear and coherent, if not particularly well thought out, position on it.
Engage economically, encourage democratically, and criticize on human rights when appropriate.		Import unemployment, export Democracy^TM (which we don't need at home anyway), criticise on human rights grounds when it doesn't cost us anything.
What's the E.U.'s China policy in a few words? (Read: "Should Europe Lift Its Arms Embargo on China?")		Detail and nuance are for wimps. (Read: And we're the only ones who are allowed to sell guns to dictatorships we wish to cozy up to.)
"When it comes to pressing international problems like Afghanistan, Pakistan or North Korea, the E.U. is either largely invisible or absent," wrote Grant in his essay, provocatively titled "Is Europe Doomed to Fail as a Power?"		"When it comes to sending men and women to die and kill in other people's colonial wars, the EU is either largely invisible or absent," wrote Bliar's Poodle in his essay, titled in an appeal to the Conventional Wisdom of his target audience, " [Europe.Is.Doomed™ Alert] "
Editor of Limes, one of Italy's leading foreign policy magazines.		Editor of Limes, one of Italy's English-language foreign policy magazines.
says the problem is a Cold War hangover.		Projection (n): (psychology) An expression of denial which involves attributing one's own perceived character flaws to others.
The post-World War II period was a golden age for Western Europe, a time of reconstruction under the U.S. security umbrella,		Real Men^TM have one eye on the Russians and one finger on the Button at all times.
"We're in denial," Caracciolo says. "We see that the Americans are not interested — to put it mildly — in our interests."		With the Russian empire having collapsed, it is no longer self-evidently true that Western Europe's geopolitical interests are coterminous with American ditto.
And we put our head in the sand.		And the uncomfortable realisation is beginning to creep into an unfortunate number of people (though fortunately few that really matter) that American and European interests on the subcontinent are no longer aligned.
Europe "happily decides," Caracciolo says, that Afghanistan, Iran, are American affairs.		Some parts of Europe figure out that there really isn't any good reason to fight American colonial wars any more.
"Any major crisis is something that is analyzed abroad.		Thinking is for wimps. Real Men^TM Stay The Course^TM
We are not up to the responsibilities of the time." (Read: "Protecting Europe's Bank Data: U.S. Access Denied.")		Europe is dimly beginning to realise that the Wrr on Trr is a crock of shit. (And we're really pissed that we can't use it as a cheap excuse for industrial espionage anymore.)
The Lisbon Treaty, establishing the new offices of the President of the European Council and the High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, was supposed to change all that.		We were really hoping that Bliar would pull off his coup d'etat and bring the EU firmly back into line with American foreign policy.
In practice, however, the new E.U. will be run by a complex mechanism with four axes:		But he failed, so the EU will still be run under the principle of separation of powers (as opposed to the ~~Führerprinzip~~ Unitary Executive that we've had so much fun with on our side of the Pond).
the President and Foreign Minister; the country holding the rotating presidency; the President of the European Commission and national heads of state and government.		The directly elected European Parliament and the European courts do not exist or have no real power.
The new setup looks like a parody of all that is wrong with the E.U.,		Constitutional government and separation of powers are for wimps.
bureaucratic and complicated, built on least-bad options and seemingly designed to encourage turf wars rather than action.		Compromise is for wimps. Real Men^TM do first-past-the-post elective monarchies.
Critics point to the selection of Herman Van Rompuy and Catherine Ashton as Europe's President and Foreign Minister as symbolic of a lack of vision.		The Villagers would really, really have liked Tory Bliar's coup d'etat to succeed, and are really, really disappointed that the people who were actually appointed have some respect for the actual treaties and the rule of law. Because rule of law is for wimps.
Van Rompuy, a former Belgian Prime Minister, is known for his ability to balance local sensitivities — no small feat in Belgium — and cajole opposing camps towards a consensus. Useful attributes, no doubt, but hardly the ones needed to make the E.U. count on the international stage.		The European President should be an international figurehead. Like Tory Bliar. (Nevermind the fact that the treaties do not stipulate any such role for the chairman of the Council - see above on Real Men^TM and the rule of law.)
"Van Rompuy and Ashton give the impression of being chosen for their limits rather than their merits,"		Van Rompuy is a puny wimp who (probably) won't try to arrogate powers and prerogatives that he is not constitutionally entitled to, and Ashton was the only PES candidate who wasn't Tory Bliar (and yeah, we're still sore that our Manchurian Candidate lost - just in case you were wondering at this point).
One senior European official frets that when it comes to the E.U. projecting itself, the choice of Van Rompuy and Ashton means the grouping will have to reconcile itself to five years of underperformance.		A sockpuppet whom I just made up out of whole cloth is concerned that Europe won't be spilling blood and treasure fighting American colonial wars.
But for all that ambition, Europe is no closer than it ever was to answering Henry Kissinger's famous question: "Who do I call when I want to call Europe?"		"... to give them an order that I can expect will be obeyed?"
[The EU] could end the violence that had regularly engulfed the continent for centuries. Judged by that measure — and notwithstanding the pathetic failure to prevent or quickly end the wars of the Yugoslav succession — the E.U. has worked out fine.		Neutrality is for wimps. And American policy was what salvaged something from Yugoslavia, after American policy made a rather heavy contribution to the need for such a salvage operation. But nevermind the last bit.
By extending an area of peace and liberal government to the east, the E.U. has done much to calm a part of the world that not long ago was the cockpit for murderous rivalries.		Bringing the insane, fundagelical League of Polish Families and the Latvian neofascists into the EU was a great idea - it both ensured a permanent far-right presence in the European government and pissed off Russia.
Beyond its neighborhood, however the E.U. has rarely punched its collective weight.		Neutrality is for wimps.
"They see Europe as a place — with a common market, a common currency, but not a power that should project itself onto the outside world." (See pictures of immigration in Europe.)		The brown people who speak funny and hate our freedom are coming to eat us.
That argument begins to break down when you have aspirations to help fix the world.		How many divisions does the EU have?
Many in the rest of the world would welcome a stronger European voice. Capitals from Pretoria to Washington are constantly urging more from their European allies.		We want Europe to foot more of the bill - both in blood and treasure - for our colonial wars.
"We hope E.U. member states will invest the post-Lisbon institutions with the authority and capacity to make concrete contributions to the pressing global challenges we face together."		We hope EU member states will start obeying us more consistently, and stop pretending to have an independent foreign policy.
In Africa, India, Latin America, leaders would fall over themselves to engage more closely with a power that's neither the U.S. nor China		Hey, two or three centuries of colonial exploitation is just water under the bridge, right? Right? (Oh, and China is just as unpopular as the US on the world stage. Right?)
European leaders arrived in the Danish capital giving the impression that setting an example would be enough to persuade others into making concessions. But the conference took a different turn. A group of developing countries threatened to walk out.		The breakdown of COP15 had everything to do with Europe not being a bully and nothing at all to do with the fact that the Americans and the Quislings and traitors in the Danish government had made a backstage deal that was even less ambitious than what was eventually decided.
With negotiations on the verge of collapse, Obama entered a room where delegates from China were meeting those from Brazil, India and South Africa. They struck a deal and then presented it to Europe and other participants.		Seeing their cozy do-nothing arrangement threatened by a firm third-world bloc, the Americans had to go in and broker some kind of compromise.
In a bitter irony, it is one of modern Europe's most cherished convictions — that the force of arms rarely settles political disputes for long — that inhibits it from being a more powerful player.		Neutrality is for wimps. How many divisions does Europe have?
European nations have sent thousands of young men and women to fight the Taliban, but the memory of the 20th century means European public opinion seems unwilling to commit to the war in Afghanistan for the long haul.		Some Europeans are starting to ask themselves why we're pissing away blood, treasure, political capital and the lives of the locals to fight an American colonial war in a part of the world where they have no perceptible strategic interest.
To Washington, which knows that the world remains a dangerous place, these attitudes have become a serious concern.		We are really scared that Europeans may decide to stop paying for, killing and dying in our colonial wars.
"The demilitarization of Europe — where large swaths of the general public and political class are averse to military force and the risks that go with it — has gone from a blessing in the 20th century to an impediment to achieving real security and lasting peace in the 21st."		When you were our rivals, we wanted you to demilitarise. Now that you are our vassals, we want you to rearm.
Plenty of European diplomats would agree with him.		Look: All my sockpuppets agree with me.
"We have to explain to our own public opinion," he said, "the world we live in." (Read: "What is Robert Gates Really Fighting For?")		Democracy is a real bitch sometimes, getting in the way of a nice little colonial war. (Read: "What part of our empire do we want Europe to pay for maintaining?"
Yes, Britain still sees itself as having a global role		Britain, fortunately, labours under the delusion that it can treat its imperial phantom limb pain with a quick dose of US-led terrorism against some semi-random third-world country.
so does France, whose President, Nicolas Sarkozy, has been active on issues from the Georgia war of 2008 to the consequences of a nuclear Iran.		And thank God for the French finally managing to elect a Quisling who will proselytise for our policy in exchange for a photo-op (nevermind that the Russians pretty much presented him with a fait accompli and told him to go suck on it).
But since the end of the Cold War, [Germany] has stepped back from the E.U., [...] and strengthening ties with Russia, to the chagrin of Britain and France.		Germany isn't buying into our policy of belligerent encirclement of Russia, and that's really worrying us.
But the U.S. President's decision to skip the Spain summit, and his failure to attend the 20th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall, has had Europe acting like a jilted lover.		The fact that the American president doesn't spend more time in Europe is worrying the Villagers, because it deprives them of their photo-ops.
reaching out in a true partnership to the nations of North Africa — another good Sarkozy idea		Let's claim that the idea of Mediterranean cooperation was the personal invention of our sockpuppet in Paris, rather than a long-standing policy hijacked for the greater glory of Sarko.
"In a post-American world, the United States knows it needs effective partners. If Europe cannot step up, the U.S. will look for other privileged partners to do business with."		If you aren't a servile vassal, you're an enemy.
Position: President of the European Commission Powers: Head of the E.U.'s executive branch. It's possible that this role and that of Council President will one day be combined		We would really like the Council to usurp the prerogatives of the other branches of government.
Position: President of the European Council Powers: Should Europe's top job be an administrative role or that of an assertive continental boss? Much will depend on the tone set by this former Belgian leader		We would really like the chairman of the Council to usurp the Foreign Minister's job.
Position: President of the European Parliament Powers: Chairs parliamentary debate and represents Europe's legislature.		The Parliament debates and discusses but does not really make decisions. Since we know that debate is for wimps (Real Men^TM Stay The Course^TM, remember?), we may safely discount this branch of government.
[End of article.]		Let's not mention the European courts and hope that they will just sort of go away. Judicial review can be such a pain in the ass sometimes.

Hope that clears up any confusion.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 07:22:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe is doomed (4.00 / 2)

As an aside, can we petition Google for a Newspeak to English translator?

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 07:31:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe is doomed (none / 0)

I was wondering where you have been. Good to see you, Jake!

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 12:21:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe is doomed (4.00 / 4)

That would make a great handout for johnfire's "Business English for Germans" course...

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 07:32:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe is doomed (4.00 / 5)

Superb post.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 07:58:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe is doomed (4.00 / 6)

Target rich environment.

It felt a little unsporting, actually. Like shooting fish in a barrel... using a tank-mounted machine gun.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 08:25:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe is doomed (4.00 / 4)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 09:02:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe is doomed (4.00 / 2)

- MfM

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 09:23:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe is doomed (none / 1)

I think it's a very apt deconstruction.

It may seem obvious to you, but it won't be obvious to everyone.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 11:48:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe is doomed (none / 1)

devastating deconstruction, prime A!

European Tribune - Europe is doomed because Germany has too small an army!

Britain, fortunately, labours under the delusion that it can treat its imperial phantom limb pain with a quick dose of US-led terrorism against some semi-random third-world country.

ROFLMAO

very nice to see you back, and so on form, Jake.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 01:25:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

niceè (none / 1)

If you re-post this as a diary, I'll front page it.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 01:33:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: niceè (none / 0)

Done.

I may clean up the layout later. Or maybe not. Depends on how much I still hate it tomorrow afternoon.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 05:53:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe is doomed because Germany has too small (4.00 / 5)

That is Time Magazine, this is Foreign Policy magazine: Let Europe Be Europe: Why the United States must withdraw from NATO (by Andrew C. Bacevich, March/april 2010)

This pacification of Europe is quite likely to prove irreversible. Yet even if reigniting an affinity for war among the people of, say, Germany and France were possible, why would any sane person even try? Why not allow Europeans to busy themselves with their never-ending European unification project? It keeps them out of mischief.
...
Afghanistan provides the most important leading indicator of where Washington's attempt to nurture a muscle-flexing new NATO is heading; it is the decisive test of whether the alliance can handle large-scale, out-of-area missions. And after eight years, the results have been disappointing. Complaints about the courage and commitment of NATO soldiers have been few. Complaints about their limited numbers and the inadequacy of their kit have been legion. An immense complicating factor has been the tendency of national governments to impose restrictions on where and how their forces are permitted to operate. The result has been dysfunction.
...
Like Nixon setting out for Beijing, like Sadat flying to Jerusalem, like Reagan deciding that Gorbachev was cut from a different cloth, the United States should dare to do the unthinkable: allow NATO to devolve into a European organization, directed by Europeans to serve European needs, upholding the safety and well-being of a Europe that is whole and free -- and more than able to manage its own affairs.

(from yesterday's Salon)

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 05:12:25 AM EST

that would be good (4.00 / 8)

The E.U. underwhelms on other big issues. "When it comes to pressing international problems like Afghanistan, Pakistan or North Korea, the E.U. is either largely invisible or absent," wrote Grant in his essay, provocatively titled "Is Europe Doomed to Fail as a Power?" Lucio Caracciolo, editor of Limes, one of Italy's leading foreign policy magazines, says the problem is a Cold War hangover. The post-World War II period was a golden age for Western Europe, a time of reconstruction under the U.S. security umbrella, he argues. When it ended, Europe went into shock. "We're in denial," Caracciolo says. "We see that the Americans are not interested -- to put it mildly -- in our interests, and we put our head in the sand." Europe "happily decides," Caracciolo says, that Afghanistan, Iran, are American affairs. "Any major crisis is something that is analyzed abroad. We are not up to the responsibilities of the time."

If only Europe actually decided that Afghanistan & Iran are American affairs... The population thinks so, but the leadership don't (or do think it, but think they can't avoid to be involved in US affairs, because the US is our friend) and try to follow US policy by stealth - and thus we get schizophrenia.

This is yet another episode of the "Americans are from Mars, Europeans are from Venus" debate, except that European leadership is stuck somewhere in the void in-between...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 06:20:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: that would be good (4.00 / 5)

European leaders are from Earth?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 06:26:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe is doomed because Germany has too small (4.00 / 4)

No, he doesn't say withdraw from NATO; just withdraw from the global force projection stature...

If NATO has a future, it will find that future back where the alliance began: in Europe. NATO's founding mission of guaranteeing the security of European democracies has lost none of its relevance. Although the Soviet threat has vanished, Russia remains. And Russia, even if no longer a military superpower, does not exactly qualify as a status quo country. The Kremlin nurses grudges and complaints, not least of them stemming from NATO's own steady expansion eastward.
So let NATO attend to this new (or residual) Russian problem. Present-day Europeans -- even Europeans with a pronounced aversion to war -- are fully capable of mounting the defenses necessary to deflect a much reduced Eastern threat. So why not have the citizens of France and Germany guarantee the territorial integrity of Poland and Lithuania, instead of fruitlessly demanding that Europeans take on responsibilities on the other side of the world that they can't and won't?

Bah.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 06:29:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe is doomed because Germany has too small (4.00 / 3)

Afghanistan provides the most important leading indicator... And after eight years, the results have been disappointing.

More to the point: The performance of the USA in Afghanistan has been disappointing. Once again our use of proxies and our policy of propping up corrupt local elites has bit us in the ass. Once again our stunning propensity to seize defeat from the jaws of victory is vividly on display. Once again the propensity of our leaders to embark on a costly, long term military adventures, this time in Iraq, in pursuit of short term domestic political agendas has proven disasterous. But that casts our "leaders" in a bad light so lets blame NATO.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 12:34:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe is doomed because Germany has too small (4.00 / 7)

Today, El Pais acts as a vehicle for atlanticist concern-trolling from the US-based German Marshall Fund:

La dudosa voluntad de la Unión de convertirse en potencia global · ELPAÍS.com R. M. DE R. - Córdoba - 07/03/2010 Vota Resultado 10 votos		The Union's dubious will to become a global power - ElPais.com
A José Manuel Durão Barroso le gusta decir que Europa debe decidir si quiere ser el tercero en discordia en el G-2 que se dibuja en el horizonte entre Estados Unidos y China o quedar en los márgenes de la escena global. Con la tinta del Tratado de Lisboa aún húmeda, China dio a Europa una bofetada en la conferencia de Copenhague, y Barack Obama le ha hecho el feo al retrasar hasta finales de año una cumbre UE-EE UU diseñada por la presidencia española de la Unión para mayo.		José Manuel Durão Barroso likes to say that Europe must decide whether it wants to be the third member of the G2 which is being delineated on the horizon between the US and China or remain on the margins of the global scene. With the ink of the Treaty of Lisbon still wet, China gave Europe a slap on the face at the Copenhagen [Climate] Conference, and Barack Obama did it the disrespect of delaying to the end of the year an EU-US summit designed by the Spanish EU Presidency for May.
...		...
La realidad es que las ambiciones de Europa se limitan a su área geográfica inmediata, con Oriente Próximo y África como principales referencias. China, que juega con Europa a placer en función de sus relaciones con los distintos socios, está ausente del pensamiento estratégico de la UE. En las tres horas del examen al que el Parlamento Europeo sometió a Ashton nadie consideró pertinente inquirir sobre China. América Latina es poco más que una anécdota, pese a los esfuerzos españoles por centrar el foco. África atrae mucha ayuda europea, pero la influencia del contacto personal con los líderes francófonos no será lo que pueda explotar la monolingüe Ashton.		The reality is that Europe's ambitions are limited to its immediate geographical area, with the near East and Africa as its main points of reference. China, which plays Europe at will as a function of its [bilateral] relationships with the various partners, is absent from the EU's strategic thinking. In the three hours of examination that the European Parliament subjected Ashton to, noone thought it pertinent to enquire about China. Latin America is little more than an anecdote, despite Spain's efforts to center the focus. Africa attracts much European aid, but the influence of personal contact with its francophone leaders is not something the monolingual Ashton can exploit.
...		...
"Queremos que la UE mire al mundo", dice la responsable del GMF, para quien Afganistán, Irán o la recesión económica global son cargas que Estados Unidos sobrellevaría mejor con ayuda europea. "No hay suficiente Europa", se lamenta. Detecta, sin embargo, corrientes no satisfactorias. "Con George Bush era fácil reducir los problemas a que él no era suficientemente multilateralista. Obama, en cambio, dice cosas que gustan a los europeos. Pero en la relación no hay un problema cíclico sino estructural", diagnostica. "Los americanos tienen una visión del mundo tras el 11-S distinta de la de los europeos. Los dirigentes europeos tienen que explicar el mundo que vivimos, que si están en Afganistán no es por Obama. Ahí es donde tienen que demostrar voluntad política y liderazgo".		"We want the EU to look to the world", says [Karen Donfried, vicepresident of the US-based German Marshall Fund (GMF)], for whom Afghanistan, Iran or the global economic recession are burdens that the US would bear better with European help. "There is not enough Europe" she laments. "With George Bush it was easy to reduce the problems to him not being sufficiently multilateralist. Obama, on the other hand, says things that the Europeans like. But the problems with the relationship are not cyclical but structural", she diagnoses. The European leaders have to explain the world we live in, that if they are in Afghanistan it is not for Obama. That's where they have to show political will and leadership".

The idea that the US is shouldering the burden of solving the world's financial crisis, let alone that it is doing it on its own, is laughable. Also, the assumption is that after 9/11 the US view is the correct one and it is the EU that has to catch up and understand the world as it is (that is, as the US sees it). The possibility that the US got it wrong after 9/11 and still hasn't come to its senses is unthinkable to these people.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 05:31:04 AM EST

Re: Europe is doomed because Germany has too small (4.00 / 2)

absolutely correct. america does think it has the answer for everything, including the finance crisis and terrorism. it is also totally wrong.

Life is not a dress rehearsal

by johnfire (johnfire@christopherrehm.com) on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 06:08:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

yep (4.00 / 10)

The possibility that the US got it wrong after 9/11 and still hasn't come to its senses is unthinkable to these people.

I'd also add that the US still hasn't gotten over the Iranian embassy hostage crisis.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 06:22:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yep (4.00 / 4)

Or Vietnam. Or Korea.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 08:48:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yep (4.00 / 3)

I did suggest that the US had a list of all perceived slights, injuries and defeats, and was working through them in reverse chronological order, so Iran is next, then Vietnam then North Korea then Germany, and finally at the end of the list (Unless they have to start all over again due to new slights or insults) they will work there way round eventually to England, who were the original people to disagree with America.

Unfortunately whenever I think of that I come to the conclusion that the US government is run somewhat like the U-boat crew in the Dads army episode.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 11:33:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yep (none / 0)

agreed jerome. but it goes with the inability of americans to look at the world obejctively...

Life is not a dress rehearsal

by johnfire (johnfire@christopherrehm.com) on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 11:16:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yep (4.00 / 2)

No one looks at the world objectively.

Biases for the US:

Even in today's "small" world, we're very isolated culturally.
We have military power, which means jingoism has real, negative consequences for the rest of the world.
Being a wealthy country, there are few immediate consequences for holding dangerous and damaging narrative beliefs.
Addiction to the drug of empire.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Mon Mar 8th, 2010 at 01:54:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yep (4.00 / 3)

And a deep-seated cultural mythos of the empty world and infinite horizons.

In fact, it may be argued that the settlement of the Americas, more than anything else, paved the way for the (implicit) assumption in much of economic thought that natural resources were for all intents and purposes in infinite supply. Until the mass settlement of the Americas, the most important raw material constraint on economic activity had been agricultural land. Indeed in many ways agricultural land was the only important raw material constraint on economic activity. With one fell swoop (and judicious application of breech-loaded rifles on recalcitrant natives), this constraint was not merely lifted - it was rendered almost entirely irrelevant, and it would be about two centuries before any equally urgent raw material constraint appeared.

It would be strange indeed if being ground zero for this cosmic shift in the human condition did not have a profound effect on the American cultural myths.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Mar 8th, 2010 at 03:41:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yep (4.00 / 3)

At the front end, too, it was poor Europeans moving to the US - poor meaning they had nothing, and thus more likely to have a myopic focus on getting "something."

American culture often feels strange to me (even as it's the only culture I have lived) and the "brute force" nature of resource use here is a big part of that. To synthesize a new culture out of this resource abundance would take more generations than we have time for. It could serve as the basis of a serious reduction in violence and competition, but beyond some good ideas on the cultural periphery we've thus far only used it to engage in ever more elaborate games of social status seeking.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Mon Mar 8th, 2010 at 04:09:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yep (none / 1)

Not to hand wave the social gains of the 20th century - which wouldn't have happened without all that energy available, but it took more than that. But most of the energy does go toward activities I find useless.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Mar 9th, 2010 at 01:34:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe is doomed because Germany has too small (4.00 / 3)

Let's fix this for them:

~~China~~The USA, which plays Europe at will as a function of its [bilateral] relationships with the various partners, is absent from the EU's strategic thinking.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 06:23:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Europe is doomed because Germany has too small (none / 1)

Yes, but Atlanticists wouldn't want to point that out to their readers, now would they?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 06:25:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Too many institutions (4.00 / 6)

The EU's decentralized decision structures are a feature not a bug. And as we have discussed before, the total cost of administration - at 8% of the EU budget - is one of the most efficient (if not the most efficient) democracies in the world.

Personally I'd be most happy to have Europe disconnect itself totally from the US and NATO.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 05:40:20 AM EST

Re: Too many institutions (none / 1)

motion seconded!

Life is not a dress rehearsal

by johnfire (johnfire@christopherrehm.com) on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 06:09:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Germany has too small an army! (4.00 / 9)

they talk too much, they have too many different institutions, and they (and more specifically Germany) are unwilling to use their armies to back their (also incoherent) diplomacy.

Similarly, I did not see how the arms race and the associated weapons expenditure would react adversely on the economic system of the United States. In these past years capital and engineering and scientific talent have been drawn into the narrow band of defence industries and concentrated there. The Japanese and the Germans had their capital and talent available for the wider area of civilian industry; this being so, they, and especially the Japanese, have greatly outstripped the United States in civilian industrial achievement. Theirs was the very considerable economic advantage that accrued from losing a war. It was within our means to use victory to better account.
In these last years, the Japanese have been pressed repeatedly by Washington to increase their defence expenditures. Contemplating the effects of such expenditure on our industry and the effect of its absence on the Japanese industry, the logic of this effort cannot be doubted. What seems less certain is the willingness of the Japanese, who are not without intelligence, to cooperate in this act of economic self-affliction.

- J.K. Galbraith, foreword to the fourth edition of The New Industrial State

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 08:00:07 AM EST

Re: Europe is doomed (again) (4.00 / 2)

Back in the 60's I read Time Magazine, thinking that I was becoming better educated. My parents had a subscription, to that and to Readers Digest. I was raised by idiots, didn't appreciate the magnitude till I hit Grad School in CA (1975).

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 at 12:09:17 PM EST

Europe is doomed because Germany has too small an army! | 40 comments (40 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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