Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.

Neoconservatism out of the closet

by shergald Sat Jun 19th, 2010 at 09:59:19 AM EST

Neoconservatism is often described as a right-wing political philosophy that emerged in the USA, and which supports using American economic and military power to bring liberalism, democracy, and human rights to other countries through military power if necessary. Although neoconservatives claim to be liberal on economic issues, the right shift of this movement seems entirely based on its radical foreign policy. The Bush Doctrine, for example, is a often perceived as a Neoconservative project and the Iraq War an example of its implementation after 9/11.

However, according to Harvard professor Stephen Walt, the Neoconservative movement is not what it seems to be, but that it has always been an Israel-centric movement to involve the US in foreign adventures that seem advantageous to Israel, and not for the idealist purpose of spreading democracy around the world. In this regard, there is plenty of evidence that the trillion dollar Iraq war was engineered by Neocons situated in the Defense Department, that it was done for Israel's sake on falsified evidence of Saddam's WMDs and terrorist connections.

But Neocon influences did not end with Iraq, but went on to push for an attack on Iran, and then, now, Turkey, which is being singled out for its criticism of Israel based on recent events. As Walt put it, "the critic of my friend is my enemy," hence, the anti-Turkey focus of recent Neocon efforts to support Israel.


Turkey and the Neocons

It couldn't be more predictable. Back when Israel and Turkey were strategic allies with extensive military-to-military ties, prominent neoconservatives were vocal defenders of the Turkish government and groups like the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) and AIPAC encouraged Congress not to pass resolutions that would have labeled what happened to the Armenians at the hands of the Turks during World War I a "genocide." (The "Armenian lobby" is no slouch, but it's no match for AIPAC and its allies in the Israel lobby). The fact that the ADL was in effect protecting another country against the charge of genocide is more than a little ironic, but who ever said that political organizations had to be ethically consistent? Once relations between Israel and Turkey began to fray, however -- fueled primarily by Turkish anger over Israel's treatment of the Palestinians -- the ADL and AIPAC withdrew their protection and Congressional defenders of Israel began switching sides, too.

Last week Jim Lobe published a terrific piece at InterPress Service, detailing how prominent neoconservatives have switched from being strong supporters (and in some cases well-paid consultants) of the Turkish government to being vehement critics. He lays out the story better than I could, but I have a few comments to add.

First, if this doesn't convince you that virtually all neoconservatives are deeply Israeli-centric, then nothing will. This affinity is hardly a secret; indeed, neocon pundit Max Boot once declared that support for Israel was a "key tenet" of neoconservatism. But the extent of their attachment to Israel is sometimes disguised by the claim that what they really care about is freedom and democracy, and therefore they support Israel simply because it is "the only democracy in the Middle East."

But now we see the neoconservatives turning on Turkey, even though it is a well-functioning democracy, a member of NATO, and a strong ally of the United States. Of course,Turkey's democracy isn't perfect, but show me one that is. The neocons have turned from friends of Turkey to foes for one simple reason: Israel. Specifically, the Turkish government has been openly critical of Israel's conduct toward the Palestinians, beginning with the blockade of Gaza, ramping up after the brutal bombardment of Gaza in 2008-2009, and culminating in the lethal IDF attack on the Gaza Freedom Flotilla. As Lobe shows, a flock of prominent neoconservatives are now busily demonizing Turkey, and in some cases calling for its expulsion from NATO.

Thus, whether a state is democratic or not matters little for the neocons; what matters for them is whether a state backs Israel or not.  So if you're still wondering why so many neoconservatives worked overtime to get the U.S. to invade Iraq -- even though Osama bin Laden was in Afghanistan or Pakistan -- and why they are now pushing for war with Iran, well, there's your answer.

Walt goes on to re-evaluate the US-Israel relationship, and how detrimental it has been for both the US and Israel, but he also recommends the article by Jim Lobe, for which his commentary is merely an introduction: Neo-Conservatives Lead Charge Against Turkey. It can be read at the LINK.

What is perhaps the greatest detriment of the Neocon-AIPAC-UN Congress nexus is its total allegiance to the right wing Likud party of Israel, today represented by the return of Netanyahu to lead Israel, who apparently intends to implement, at last, A Clean Break, the Neocon prescription for the future of Israel.

Display:
Odd, "edit diary" no longer showing up on my page.

by shergald on Sat Jun 19th, 2010 at 02:03:54 PM EST
[ET Moderation Technology™]

Not odd at all, you deleted a diary and its comments. Your diary editing permission has been lifted until the editorial team decides you can have that privilege back.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Jun 19th, 2010 at 03:31:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What silly crap. Why have a delete option in the first place if a diarist cannot use it?

The diary that was deleted was deleted because a group of so-called frontpagers like yourself decided to hijack it and dump unending, irrelevant comments of no import on it.

No problem.

by shergald on Sat Jun 19th, 2010 at 04:59:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
[ET Moderation Technology™]

You are claiming for yourself the right to delete other people's comments. This is not acceptable.

You are also continuing to try to impose your frame on the discussion you deleted. No one can now refer to it to make up their mind. You have no moral justification for telling people what was in that thread, since you destroyed it.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jun 20th, 2010 at 02:18:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You may wish to show everyone where in the use guide there are guidelines about "delete" at all, or where it indicates that users may not delete diaries that have comments.

You seem to be making up rules as you go along at your own convenience.

by shergald on Sun Jun 20th, 2010 at 10:56:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Diary deletion

Sometimes users may feel strongly offended by a discussion on ET, or have second thoughts about posting a diary after a controversy developed in its comment threads. It has happened that in the heat of anger, a user has deleted his/her own diary/ies.

However, deletion in the Scoop software ET uses, is irrevocable. Neither the diary nor its comments thread can be retrieved. By deleting a diary, the diarist doesn't just delete her/his own content: the contributions of other users to the diary will be lost, too. To prevent the deletion of more diaries along with the respective comment threads, any editor at hand can intervene to withdraw that diarist's right to delete own diaries. This measure only intends to protect others' comments, no negative repercussions follow for the diary-deleting user (apart from general disapproval, because diary deletion is not cool).



"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Sun Jun 20th, 2010 at 11:25:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
[ET Moderation Technology™]

shergald:

You may wish to show everyone where in the use guide

It's up to you to read the guidelines, not to challenge editors to justify their decisions.

This discussion is over. Any further comments from you that do not concern the topic of your diary will be purely and simply deleted.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jun 20th, 2010 at 11:31:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
[ET Moderation Technology™]

Two further comments by shergald refusing to admit a diary deletion rule have been deleted.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 21st, 2010 at 11:12:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
[ET Moderation Technology™]

Once more:

The rules and conventions for using this site are set out in the New User Guide and the ET Editorial Guidelines. The menu containing these is just above the box containing your personal menu.

We, the editorial team (listed on the lower right of the front page) ask that users read and abide by these rules and conventions - just like every other community blog.

The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman

by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Mon Jun 21st, 2010 at 12:39:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Please also see the http://www.eurotrib.com/special/editorial_guidelines.

The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Sun Jun 20th, 2010 at 04:33:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure I buy the thesis completely. Yes, there's a considerable overlap between the crazy likudniks and the crazy neocons, but to claim that neoconservatism is just likudniks in a cheap tuxedo strikes me as somewhat overblown.

A central tenet of neoconservative ideology is belligerent, jingoistic nationalism. Anybody who does not toe the US line 110 % is viewed as an enemy. So of course they're going to go after anybody who doesn't back Israel the likudnik occupation policy. But they also go after Latin American reformers, German anti-Iraq-war politicians and France (on general principle).

Apparently TPTB have decided that Israel is a more valuable client than Turkey. I'm not entirely sure I agree with that assessment, but I'm not entirely sure I disagree either - Israel is vital for the Suez game, which is a lot more interesting than the Bosphorus/Aegean game. Also, I think Turkey buys a lot more of their war toys from European death merchants.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jun 20th, 2010 at 05:37:16 PM EST
"German anti-Iraq-war politicians and France (on general principle)"

Iraq was a for-Israel venture and anyone against it, such as the above, were targeted for defamation. There was no other principle: it was follow Bush, like his British poodle, Blair, (and the proIsrael Neocons) or suffer enmity.


by shergald on Sun Jun 20th, 2010 at 08:11:58 PM EST
Iraq was a for-Israel venture

I've yet to see the case for that substantiated. While I can easily see what American power blocs were served by the assault on Iraq, I fail to see what Israel got out of it.

Oh, I have no doubt that the likudniks cheered on seeing some brown people get bombed back to the stone age, but I sincerely doubt that they were the dog rather than the tail in that particular adventure.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jun 21st, 2010 at 07:07:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The case for "it was for-Israel's sake," was covered here in the US repeatedly, in fact, General Zinni, who served as a US representative to Israel, wrote about it in his book. Many others likewise wrote about the Israel connection.

I don't have the time or inclination to go over those arguments, which begin with the "A Clean Break" document written for Netanyahu during his first administration in 1996, by whom else, Jewish Neocons like Perle and Feith and other right wing Likudniks. Netanyahu followed that document including wining and dining the Christian Zionists, but the take out of Iraq was intimated in it. Iran came up later. It is interested that, although Wolfowitz, the architect of the Iraq invasion, was not part of the consulting group, Douglas Feith, who was second to Wolfowitz in the Defense Department, was. More than anyone else, he was responsible for fudging the intelligence against Saddam (the WMD ruse, bogus Al Quaeda connections), the stuff Bush told the nation in his yearly speech to Congress, which was repeated by Colen Powell to the UN.

As you say, Google can be a good friend. But didn't you say that you were a think tanker? You should know this stuff then better than me. There is of course the oil angle, which may have been another motive for attacking Iraq out of Cheney's office.

by shergald on Mon Jun 21st, 2010 at 09:40:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And here: it's still unconvincing. As one factor helping build a sufficient coaltion to get to the war, possible. Hardly the reason though.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 21st, 2010 at 10:00:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't be a Zionist.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 21st, 2010 at 10:04:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Those connections would be a lot more convincing if Israel had taken the initiative. And if Iraq had existed as a functioning regional player at the time the report was written.

What I see here is a gang of American neocons sending strategy memos to an American client state, exhorting it to align itself against the American bogeyman of the day. Sort of like how the Americans periodically send memos to Japan, France and Germany about the urgent need for these countries to buy more (preferably American-made) war toys. The US also likes to tell Europe that we should be afraid of Russia. Is that because they want to help us fight Russia, or is it because they want us to help them fight Russia?

When the Americans send such memos to Japan or Europe, they are usually deposited in the circular file without further concern or discussion. Unless the Americans are lucky enough to hit upon a crazy nut like Kaczynski or Binny Yahoo (or a poodle like Bliar).

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jun 21st, 2010 at 10:05:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So much for the 'think tank' idea.

Personally, I would have to go with thinkers like Harvard professor Walt, who has specialized in the US-Israel relationship, co-author of "the Israel Lobby."

Names like Perle, Wolfowitz, and Feith seem to have little resonance here, as well as the other twenty or so ;ess known proIsrael Zionists situated in the Defense Department during the Bush administration.

by shergald on Mon Jun 21st, 2010 at 10:43:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Around here it is considered good manners to provide links to online material and references to print material, so the reader can judge for himself.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jun 21st, 2010 at 10:51:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My understanding is that such topics have been debated to death here in the past by the think tank, such that any subsequent debate is superfluous.

As I said, I don't have the time or inclination. If you choose to contradict my point, then I would say that it is up to you, a think tanker, to supply the basis for your argument against what is an old hat evidentiary understanding here in the US.

Otherwise, just drop it.

by shergald on Mon Jun 21st, 2010 at 11:23:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay here is a beginning for you: from The Israel Lobby
John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt

Maintaining US support for Israel's policies against the Palestinians is essential as far as the Lobby is concerned, but its ambitions do not stop there. It also wants America to help Israel remain the dominant regional power. The Israeli government and pro-Israel groups in the United States have worked together to shape the administration's policy towards Iraq, Syria and Iran, as well as its grand scheme for reordering the Middle East.

Pressure from Israel and the Lobby was not the only factor behind the decision to attack Iraq in March 2003, but it was critical. Some Americans believe that this was a war for oil, but there is hardly any direct evidence to support this claim. Instead, the war was motivated in good part by a desire to make Israel more secure. According to Philip Zelikow, a former member of the president's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, the executive director of the 9/11 Commission, and now a counsellor to Condoleezza Rice, the `real threat' from Iraq was not a threat to the United States. The `unstated threat' was the `threat against Israel', Zelikow told an audience at the University of Virginia in September 2002. `The American government,' he added, `doesn't want to lean too hard on it rhetorically, because it is not a popular sell.'

On 16 August 2002, 11 days before Dick Cheney kicked off the campaign for war with a hardline speech to the Veterans of Foreign Wars, the Washington Post reported that `Israel is urging US officials not to delay a military strike against Iraq's Saddam Hussein.' By this point, according to Sharon, strategic co-ordination between Israel and the US had reached `unprecedented dimensions', and Israeli intelligence officials had given Washington a variety of alarming reports about Iraq's WMD programmes. As one retired Israeli general later put it, `Israeli intelligence was a full partner to the picture presented by American and British intelligence regarding Iraq's non-conventional capabilities.'

Israeli leaders were deeply distressed when Bush decided to seek Security Council authorisation for war, and even more worried when Saddam agreed to let UN inspectors back in. `The campaign against Saddam Hussein is a must,' Shimon Peres told reporters in September 2002. `Inspections and inspectors are good for decent people, but dishonest people can overcome easily inspections and inspectors.'

At the same time, Ehud Barak wrote a New York Times op-ed warning that `the greatest risk now lies in inaction.' His predecessor as prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, published a similar piece in the Wall Street Journal, entitled: `The Case for Toppling Saddam'. `Today nothing less than dismantling his regime will do,' he declared. `I believe I speak for the overwhelming majority of Israelis in supporting a pre-emptive strike against Saddam's regime.' Or as Ha'aretz reported in February 2003, `the military and political leadership yearns for war in Iraq.'

As Netanyahu suggested, however, the desire for war was not confined to Israel's leaders. Apart from Kuwait, which Saddam invaded in 1990, Israel was the only country in the world where both politicians and public favoured war. As the journalist Gideon Levy observed at the time, `Israel is the only country in the West whose leaders support the war unreservedly and where no alternative opinion is voiced.' In fact, Israelis were so gung-ho that their allies in America told them to damp down their rhetoric, or it would look as if the war would be fought on Israel's behalf.

Within the US, the main driving force behind the war was a small band of neo-conservatives, many with ties to Likud. But leaders of the Lobby's major organisations lent their voices to the campaign. `As President Bush attempted to sell the ... war in Iraq,' the Forward reported, `America's most important Jewish organisations rallied as one to his defence. In statement after statement community leaders stressed the need to rid the world of Saddam Hussein and his weapons of mass destruction.' The editorial goes on to say that `concern for Israel's safety rightfully factored into the deliberations of the main Jewish groups.'

Although neo-conservatives and other Lobby leaders were eager to invade Iraq, the broader American Jewish community was not. Just after the war started, Samuel Freedman reported that `a compilation of nationwide opinion polls by the Pew Research Center shows that Jews are less supportive of the Iraq war than the population at large, 52 per cent to 62 per cent.' Clearly, it would be wrong to blame the war in Iraq on `Jewish influence'. Rather, it was due in large part to the Lobby's influence, especially that of the neo-conservatives within it.

The neo-conservatives had been determined to topple Saddam even before Bush became president. They caused a stir early in 1998 by publishing two open letters to Clinton, calling for Saddam's removal from power. The signatories, many of whom had close ties to pro-Israel groups like JINSA or WINEP, and who included Elliot Abrams, John Bolton, Douglas Feith, William Kristol, Bernard Lewis, Donald Rumsfeld, Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz, had little trouble persuading the Clinton administration to adopt the general goal of ousting Saddam. But they were unable to sell a war to achieve that objective. They were no more able to generate enthusiasm for invading Iraq in the early months of the Bush administration. They needed help to achieve their aim. That help arrived with 9/11. Specifically, the events of that day led Bush and Cheney to reverse course and become strong proponents of a preventive war.

At a key meeting with Bush at Camp David on 15 September, Wolfowitz advocated attacking Iraq before Afghanistan, even though there was no evidence that Saddam was involved in the attacks on the US and bin Laden was known to be in Afghanistan. Bush rejected his advice and chose to go after Afghanistan instead, but war with Iraq was now regarded as a serious possibility and on 21 November the president charged military planners with developing concrete plans for an invasion.

Other neo-conservatives were meanwhile at work in the corridors of power. We don't have the full story yet, but scholars like Bernard Lewis of Princeton and Fouad Ajami of Johns Hopkins reportedly played important roles in persuading Cheney that war was the best option, though neo-conservatives on his staff - Eric Edelman, John Hannah and Scooter Libby, Cheney's chief of staff and one of the most powerful individuals in the administration - also played their part. By early 2002 Cheney had persuaded Bush; and with Bush and Cheney on board, war was inevitable.

Outside the administration, neo-conservative pundits lost no time in making the case that invading Iraq was essential to winning the war on terrorism. Their efforts were designed partly to keep up the pressure on Bush, and partly to overcome opposition to the war inside and outside the government. On 20 September, a group of prominent neo-conservatives and their allies published another open letter: `Even if evidence does not link Iraq directly to the attack,' it read, `any strategy aiming at the eradication of terrorism and its sponsors must include a determined effort to remove Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq.' The letter also reminded Bush that `Israel has been and remains America's staunchest ally against international terrorism.' In the 1 October issue of the Weekly Standard, Robert Kagan and William Kristol called for regime change in Iraq as soon as the Taliban was defeated. That same day, Charles Krauthammer argued in the Washington Post that after the US was done with Afghanistan, Syria should be next, followed by Iran and Iraq: `The war on terrorism will conclude in Baghdad,' when we finish off `the most dangerous terrorist regime in the world'.

This was the beginning of an unrelenting public relations campaign to win support for an invasion of Iraq, a crucial part of which was the manipulation of intelligence in such a way as to make it seem as if Saddam posed an imminent threat. For example, Libby pressured CIA analysts to find evidence supporting the case for war and helped prepare Colin Powell's now discredited briefing to the UN Security Council. Within the Pentagon, the Policy Counterterrorism Evaluation Group was charged with finding links between al-Qaida and Iraq that the intelligence community had supposedly missed. Its two key members were David Wurmser, a hard-core neo-conservative, and Michael Maloof, a Lebanese-American with close ties to Perle. Another Pentagon group, the so-called Office of Special Plans, was given the task of uncovering evidence that could be used to sell the war. It was headed by Abram Shulsky, a neo-conservative with long-standing ties to Wolfowitz, and its ranks included recruits from pro-Israel think tanks. Both these organisations were created after 9/11 and reported directly to Douglas Feith.

As just one source, read the rest for yourself here:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/john-mearsheimer/the-israel-lobby


by shergald on Mon Jun 21st, 2010 at 11:42:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Pressure from Israel and the Lobby was not the only factor behind the decision to attack Iraq in March 2003, but it was critical.

You might want to look for a better quote. One that supports your case than addressing the concerns of bat-shit crazy Israeli nationalists was a necessary and sufficient condition for the invasion of Iraq. My guess is that there are maybe half a dozen critical reasons for the invasion, of which this is one.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 21st, 2010 at 11:53:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oil was always the alternate hypothesis, even though there was no case that it was done to protect Saudi oil, as someone suggested.

"there are maybe half a dozen critical reasons for the invasion, of which this is one."

I was cited for not producing links to evidence. Where's yours on this statement. I think some of you guys just pull things out of your asses, and then present them as viable arguments. Not quite think tank calibre stuff. Personally, I will take Walt and Merschirmer, who specialize in the area.

by shergald on Mon Jun 21st, 2010 at 12:11:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
shergald:
I think some of you guys just pull things out of your asses, and then present them as viable arguments.

do you just come here to practice rudeness?

don't you realise you'd be welcome here if you changed your tone to one less aggressively polemic?

i am glad you haven't been banned, but you keep adding to the communication problem, rather than easing up and supporting the site, and its play rules. if others are less than perfectly courteous to you, why not set an example in return?

could be a big return on a small investment... right now you're begging to be banned, just to prove something, seemingly.

chill out, you'll have more fun...

what's the payoff? you write well, about important issues, but why the prickliness? it's so unnecessary!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Jun 21st, 2010 at 12:40:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Could it be that we here in the US sometimes find off-coloring more suitable, direct, and to the point than you Europeans?

by shergald on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 07:32:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I'm pretty sure it's the thinly veiled insinuations of bad faith that we find objectionable, not the cusswords.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 07:38:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
it's simple manners. rude people, even if well informed and well intentioned, make poor conversation and reveal irrational hostility more than anything else.

shame...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 08:49:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Did you really just say that? Really?

You are a fool. Piss off and stop lecturing us. Thanks.

That to the point enough for you?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 07:44:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
melo:
i am glad you haven't been banned
You say that as if ET were in the business of banning people. The only people (except for commercial spammers) that have ever been banned are an unstable person who cyberstalked another ETer, and a vandal, both of whom created a slew of sockpuppet accounts.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 08:30:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
that's true, and fine. blogs ban posters, and should, if all else fails.

i think it's much more interesting to keep the inclusiveness, and create a civil space.

cussing has absolutely nothing to do with it.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 08:53:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure what you think that piece proves. Sure, if you define the neocons as being part and parcel of the Israel Lobby, then the neocons are part and parcel of the Israel Lobby. Duh.

Your argument in the diary was that the neocon project was primarily about furthering Israel's Likud's interests. Your argument in this subthread was that the attack on Iraq was primarily about furthering Israel's Likud's interests.

Nobody doubts that the neocons are, at the moment, strong supporters of the Israeli far-right (whether the attack on Iraq furthered Israeli interests, or even Israeli far-right interests, is more debatable). What remains to be adequately argued is that this support is central to the neocon project. In other words, everybody agrees that there is wagging going on, but who's the tail and who's the dog?

One way to shed some light on the matter would be to go through some of the major flip-flops of American, neocon and/or Israeli foreign policy over the last couple of decades. Then one could investigate whether the three actors flipped at the same time, or one or two of them maintained an independent line.

If two actors did flip at the same time, one would have to check whether there were plausible reasons for their objective interests to change in concert. If there were no such commonality of interests, one could conclude that the actor that changed against its best interests was being influenced by the other actor. If there turned out to be a commonality of interests, one could still infer something about the relationship from the timing - the leading actor is more likely to be the originator of the change than the lagging actor.

For example, in the 1980's, back when quite a lot of the neocons were involved in the Raygun/Bush the Elder administration, Saddam Hussein and the neocons were best buddies. This changed around the early 1990's. There's a couple of plausible reasons for why the American and/or neocon stance on Iraq would change (the collapse of the Soviet Union reduced Iranian power, which in turn reduced the need for a countervailing influence; Iraq lost their war against Iran, reducing their value both as a client state and as a countervailing force; the US needed a third-world country to throw up against the wall to demonstrate that they were the only show in the post-Soviet town, and the air defences around Damaskus were too good).

Was Israel hostile to Iraq in the 1980's?

If so, that would be a strike against the argument put forth in your diary: When, in the 1980's, the neocons were given the choice between supporting their vision for the US and supporting Israeli policy, they chose the US.

If not, when did Israel change its stance vis-a-vis Iraq? If they did so before the neocons, and the neocons changed stance before the US, one might reasonably infer that the policy change was being promoted by Israel through the neocons. If, OTOH, the neocons became hostile to Iraq before the US and Israel became hostile to Iraq after the US did, it would indicate that the neocons influenced American policy, and Israel followed American policy. Finally, if the US turned against Iraq before both Israel and the neocons, it would indicate that both Israel and the neocons are in the tail, and some other faction or factions are in the dog.

That's an empirical question. I don't know enough to answer it right now, but it should be possible to answer.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jun 21st, 2010 at 01:07:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Let me know when you get your answer. For the time being you might want to read and critique Walt, and the article his paragraphs are an introduction to concerning Turkey getting on Israel's shit list.

by shergald on Mon Jun 21st, 2010 at 03:13:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You really don't get the whole "burden of proof" thing.

You're the one making an assertion that, on the face of it, appears to be highly improbable. You need to either provide compelling evidence or at the very least provide a reasonably detailed description of where it can be found. The American conventional wisdom isn't evidence - the American conventional wisdom used to be that they'd greet us with flowers and that housing prices can only go up...

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 12:42:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you want to understand the IP conflict you will not be able to ignore American politics, and one way to get an appreciation is to read Mearshirmer and Walt's book, The Israel Lobby, where they present the details much more in depth than in their LRB article.

On the other hand, it my understand that this conflict has been debated here to death. How could that be the case without understand the ways in which Israel infouences the US Congress and White House. Best lobby in town, even better than the National Rifle Association.

by shergald on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 07:38:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not ignoring American politics.

I'm arguing that the relationship is a little more complicated than "Israel is running American foreign policy through teh AIPAC."

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 07:47:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Israel Lobby is a blanket term covering several Jewish organizations in the US, including AIPAC, all of which support a Likud policy platform. That would include Zionists of America, American Jewish Committee, and now the Anti-Defamation League, and many others.

I'm not certain what complications you might be referring to, apart from oil and the false notion that Israel provides a base of operations for Americab Middle East diplomacy, Israeli lobbyists have made certain that US politicians follow the Israeli line, whatever it may be. You need only appreciate the response in Congress to the Mavi Marmara incident, where even VP Biden repeated the usual hogwash, that "Israel has a right to defend itself."

by shergald on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 10:31:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not certain what complications you might be referring to,

Lessee...

  1. Israel is a huge customer for American-made war toys.

  2. Israel is located right next to the most valuable bit of real estate on the planet. And, unlike Egypt, Israel is completely dependent on the US, because Israel doesn't have a lot of other friends.

  3. Israel is a nice potential launch pad for air strikes into the surrounding territories and a secure base for naval operations in the Eastern Mediterranean. Even better, from Washington's perspective, Israel is willing to carry out those operations itself (and frequently pretends to be prepared to take unilateral action), which gives plausible deniability to Washington when people complain that one of their client states is bombing brown people.

  4. Israeli spies and hitmen, unlike the CIA et al, are actually reasonably competent. And there's one more layer of cut-outs between Mossad/Shin Beth and the White House, which is always a plus.

  5. A Palestinian victory over Israeli colonialism might set a precedent that would be irritating to the US, vis-a-vis the US' own colonial empire.

  6. Keeping the Near East divided helps prevent any sort of effective political organisation in the world's most valuable subcontinent.

  7. Backing Israel feeds the "Islam vs. The WestTM" narrative. And Muslims are just about the perfect enemy:

    • Unlike Russians, they are mostly brown, so they can be killed with a sort of impunity that Russians couldn't back in the good old days of the Cold War.

    • Unlike Mexicans, they are mostly in far-away countries, so they won't riot in American cities when they are mistreated.

    • And unlike Russians, they have no serious prospect of ever hitting back at the US in a way that does anything more substantial than provide a photo-op for some jingoist to proclaim renewed devotion to the wrr on trr.

    From the perspective of the armaments industry and the police state proponents, what's not to like?

And that's just the realpolitik. When you add the naked racism (Israelis are generally whiter than the surrounding people) and the fact that support for Palestine is a left-wing narrative, supporting Israel fits the neocon agenda like stupid fits a Creationist.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 11:56:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
By the numbers:

1.No disagreement.

2.Except Egypt, Jordan, Canada, Britain, and so on.

3.Except that since 1967, 1973, all they have attacked are civilian populations in Lebanon and Gaza, 2006, 2008, West Bank 2000.

      4. Mosaad competent? Take the last hit alone. We don't do assassinations. Intelligence, no argument after the Iraq war debacle.

5.Not at least since Obama, although AIPAC has had him running backtracking for a while.

6.Not since Obama. The Neocons have always been Israel centric as Walt argues.

by shergald on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 02:11:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
  1. All American client states, whose support will vanish with the American support.

  2. Yes, and all Saakashvili has attacked is Ossetia. Doesn't mean having him around wasn't useful for the people who desire a continued belligerent encirclement of Russia.

  3. They don't have to be exceptionally competent to beat the CIA...

  4. Bah. If Obama is an anti-imperialist, I'm Mickey Mouse.

  5. If Obama is in favour of political unification of the Middle East, he has a funny way of showing it.

  6. If the neocons have always been Israel-centric, why were they best buddies with Saddam back in the 1980s?

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.
by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 03:24:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That was the period of the Iraq-Iran war, 1980-1988, Iran of course being a theocracy critical of Israel and the US satan. As such, perhaps on memory of things past, the US supported Saddam militarily in that war, which was fought to a stalemate.

Otherwise, you will have to provide references to this friendliness, and just what that meant. I think that it was in 1982, that Israel bombed Iraq's nuclear facility in progress.

by shergald on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 06:15:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Otherwise, you will have to provide references to this friendliness, and just what that meant.

In the '80s, the neocons were selling chemical weapons to Iraq. The same chemical weapons that were later used against Kurds and Shias, and, ironically, were dragged out as casus belli in 2003 (nevermind that such stuff has a shelf life...).

That friendly enough for you?

I think that it was in 1982, that Israel bombed Iraq's nuclear facility in progress.

Well, that was sort of my point. Iraq was on Israel's shit list throughout, but it wasn't on the neocons' shit list until the balance of American geostrategic interests shifted against Iraq.

Which points to the conclusion that the neocons are primarily American nationalists, and that their support for Israel is a consequence of their broader ideology, rather than a driving force in it.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 06:21:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Neocons selling Saddam chemical weapons? Who were these Neocons? Whatever Saddam was given by the US, its purpose was to help take down Iran.

I can only guess that the Neocons chose to support the lesser of two evils in this time period, but certainly Saddam had no use for Israel even then. But who cares. He was being used to attain American foreign policy goals, and the takedown of Iran was one, supported by Israel.

Still, I just don't believe that Walt's thesis can be so simply contradicted. It is almost impossible to name a prominent Neocon who is not a strong Israelophile and whose positions are not supportive of Israel in every way, or should I say, the right wing way. Neocons are Likudniks, pure and simple, from Perle on down, as evident in A Clean Break.

by shergald on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 07:34:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I can only guess that the Neocons chose to support the lesser of two evils in this time period,

Um, no. Empires don't do "lesser of two evils." They do "out son-of-a-bitch."

It is almost impossible to name a prominent Neocon who is not a strong Israelophile

What do you base that on? What they say for public consumption?

Neocons are Likudniks, pure and simple, from Perle on down, as evident in A Clean Break.

You keep referring to that paper, but I still don't think it says what you think it says. I've seen substantially the same sort of garbage pushed to Europeans (if you swap out Iraq and Jordan with Russia and Ukraine), and it's quite obvious that the neocons are not Europhiles.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 08:21:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Name a Neocon who is not a Israelophile of the Likud variety.

Again, just what Neocon(s) sold chemical weapons to the Iraqis in the 1980s?

by shergald on Wed Jun 23rd, 2010 at 07:57:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Saddam in Rumsfeld's Closet
Five years before Saddam Hussein's now infamous 1988 gassing of the Kurds, a key meeting took place in Baghdad that would play a significant role in forging close ties between Saddam Hussein and Washington. It happened at a time when Saddam was first alleged to have used chemical weapons. The meeting in late December 1983 paved the way for an official restoration of relations between Iraq and the US, which had been severed since the 1967 Arab-Israeli war.

With the Iran-Iraq war escalating, President Ronald Reagan dispatched his Middle East envoy, a former secretary of defense, to Baghdad with a hand-written letter to Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and a message that Washington was willing at any moment to resume diplomatic relations.

That envoy was Donald Rumsfeld.



By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 23rd, 2010 at 08:52:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
First of all the decision to assist Saddam against Uran obviously came from the White House, Reagan, and his secretaries of state, Alexander Haig and/or George Shultz. Caspar Weinberger was his Secretary of Defense. Rumsfeld was a Defense Department operative, and that was all. Certainly in the Bush administration, it is safe to say that Rumsfeld as well as Cheney took on neuconservatism trappings, after 9/11 especially or specifically, but to associate his nonpolicy work during the Reagan administration as neoconservative in retrospect is inaccurate. Rumsfeld was just not a policy maker at that time.

Clearly the attempt to use Saddam against Iran was not an attempt, obviously, to democratize Iraq, but it might have been to weaken or take down the anti-American Iranian theocracy.


by shergald on Wed Jun 23rd, 2010 at 10:48:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wait, are you claiming Rumsfeld was not a neocon since the 1970's?

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jun 23rd, 2010 at 11:13:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're reference doesn't show anything of the kind.

Rumsfeld's role with Saddam was simply an implementarion of US foreign policy at the time in confronting to Iran.

by shergald on Wed Jun 23rd, 2010 at 12:06:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Certainly in the Bush administration, it is safe to say that Rumsfeld as well as Cheney took on neuconservatism trappings, after 9/11 especially or specifically,

You will want to stop digging now...

The neocons have existed in roughly their current configuration since the late '70s/early '80s, with essentially unchanged ideological priorities.

but to associate his nonpolicy work during the Reagan administration as neoconservative in retrospect is inaccurate. Rumsfeld was just not a policy maker at that time.

I suppose it's possible to imagine that the second-in-command of the American war department does not play any major role in shaping American foreign policy. Stranger things have happened - after all, you just had two presidents in a row who didn't seem to play any major role in shaping American foreign policy...

But it really is a case that you need to make in slightly greater detail than by off-hand assertion.

Clearly the attempt to use Saddam against Iran was not an attempt, obviously, to democratize Iraq,

Well, duh.

Why is that relevant, again? The neocons have never, outside certain parts of their agit-prop, had any concern what so ever for democracy.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Jun 23rd, 2010 at 03:54:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jake, I'm sorry, but you're pulling out straws now. And I was wrong about Rumsfeld's role in Iraq. He was a Special Envoy, and no, he did not make policy, he carried it out. And no, the Reagan administration was not a neoconservative one. For that matter, neither was Bush's until 9/11. There are no documents, papers, or associations of Rumsfeld that could assign him to the Neocon camp before 9/11. For much of the time between 1980 and 2000, he was an excutive with a pharmaceutical company, although he might have come back to serve the Bush I administration.

And no, Reagan was not courting Saddam in the attempt to democratize Iraq, which is a duh, in anyone's book. And if you don't know why that is relevant, you don't understand the Neocons, and their foreign policy project, or why they hit on Iraq years later (even though it was done for Israel's sake).

And finally, who the hell ever said that Neoconservatism developed with the Bush administration? And no, there is no credible evidence that Rumsfeld was a neocon in the 70s or 80s, and no, there was no Neocon angle to the Iraq-Iran war such that the neocons gave Saddam chemical weapons. You made that up yourself, me thinks, because Rumsfeld took a Neoconservative course in the Defense Department. Once a Neocon, you had to be one forever, right?

Is this the think tank you were talking about?


by shergald on Wed Jun 23rd, 2010 at 04:47:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And no, Reagan was not courting Saddam in the attempt to democratize Iraq, which is a duh, in anyone's book. And if you don't know why that is relevant, you don't understand the Neocons, and their foreign policy project,

No, you don't understand what the neocon project is about.

It's not about "promoting democracy." It's not about "freedom." It's certainly not about "winning the war on terror." And it's not about Israel. Those are just advertising slogans, and have nothing to do with their policy prescriptions. Most of these guys got their political schooling under Nixon and have, in fact, been quite consistent in their policies and objectives ever since: To put the executive and economic power of the United States under their clique's control (remember the "permanent majority" and "unitary executive?") and use it to advance their own wealth and act out their fantasies of control and dominance.

If saying "we're promoting democracy" is what makes the rubes buy their scam, then they'll say that they're spreading democracy. If claiming that they're defending Israel is what will make the Millenialist fundagelicals rally to their flag, then they support Israel. If fighting the wrr on trr is what will make the FOX News watching mouthbreather demographic rally behind them, then they're fighting the wrr on trr.

But you shouldn't for a single moment believe that they're sincere about any of that. If supporting Israel were to become a net liability to their quest for power, they would fuck over Israel just as fast as they fucked over Saddam.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Jun 23rd, 2010 at 05:07:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay, let's end it here.

I don't know what the Neocons are all about. Walt's thesis that the Neocons are Israel-centric is false because a Neocon gave chemical weapons to the Iraqis in the 80s.

Case closed.

by shergald on Wed Jun 23rd, 2010 at 08:12:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are no documents, papers, or associations of Rumsfeld that could assign him to the Neocon camp before 9/11.

Does membership in the neoconservative think tank count?

Project for the New American Century - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Project for the New American Century (PNAC) was an American think tank based in Washington, D.C. that lasted from early 1997 to 2006.
by generic on Thu Jun 24th, 2010 at 07:10:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes it does count but not for this argument concerning Saddam and chemical weapons, when Rumsfeld was just a special envoy to Iraq carrying out a Reagan contraIran policy he did not make. But it does contradict my 9/11 assertion by four years, still a couple of decades too early.


by shergald on Thu Jun 24th, 2010 at 07:53:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Dude. Guy was chief of staff in the Ford administration. That's the same position Rahm Emmanuel occupies at the moment. Wanna claim that he isn't a policymaker too?

Besides, the entire neocon cabal's modus operandi stinks of the political schooling they received during their time in the Nixon administration - only this time they're remembering to burn the tapes.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Jun 24th, 2010 at 10:29:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No Rumsfeld was not a policy maker in the Ford administration, who I gather you may think was in cahoots with the Neocons.

Take my advise: give it up. The Neocons did not have any real effect on US foreign policy until 9/11. In fact, the Wolfowitz Iraq invasion plan was already out there in the early 90s, when he attempted to get Clinton to do the dirty work. Clinton allegedly threw it in the wastebasket. It is not that Neocons were not embedded yet, but they just had no effect on American foreign policy, yet.

And no, the Neocons did not supply Saddam with chemical weapons, and no, Walt is not wrong because of that preposterous notion. As I mentioned before, Iraq was just being used by the US to counter Iran.

So let's stop beating a dead horse, shall we?

by shergald on Thu Jun 24th, 2010 at 11:05:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Even if we pretend that those assertions are all true (we clearly disagree on both the history, the influence and the political agenda of the neoconservative faction), you still have to demonstrate you original claim: That the neocons are an Israel-centric faction.

I just don't see the evidence - and no, Walt isn't evidence; he just asserts that this is the case and proceeds to take it as read in his political analysis. Which, for the purposes of discussing Israeli policy is not necessarily wrong - from the perspective of Israel and the Palestinians it doesn't matter why the neocons currently support Israel, just that they will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. But you made a stronger claim than Walt does, so you need to provide comparatively stronger evidence.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Jun 24th, 2010 at 11:39:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My assertion did not exceed Walt's. You only have to survey the prominent Neocons to understand that they are more than supportive of Israel. They are Likudniks and that would include both the Jewish and nonJewish Neocons, the latter including Woosley and John Bolton, AIPAC's favorite standby. You can survey the actors behind the scenes pushing the Bush administration, a willing participant, toward war on Iraq.

Walt also notes the fakery about the Neocon project to spread democracy by whatever means, especially American military power, because of their current attacks on Turkey, a secular demoracy and member of NATO, in fact.

I support Walt's view over your because he is a Middle East expert and highly learned, and I know a lot of his references and sources, over your own view. It is pretty weak if not trivial to bring up some notion about a Neocon giving Saddam chemical weapons, in counterarguing his view.

But this give and take has gone on long enough.

by shergald on Thu Jun 24th, 2010 at 04:27:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My assertion did not exceed Walt's. You only have to survey the prominent Neocons to understand that they are more than supportive of Israel.

But that's not what you were arguing. You were arguing that:

They are Likudniks and that would include both the Jewish and nonJewish Neocons, the latter including Woosley and John Bolton, AIPAC's favorite standby.

In other words, you were claiming that they support Israel and derive the rest of their agenda from that support. Which is bullshit - they have an agenda, and supporting Israel furthers that agenda at the moment.

I support Walt's view over your because he is a Middle East expert and highly learned,

In other words, you're making an argument from authority because you don't have the ability or inclination to make an argument on its merits.

and I know a lot of his references and sources,

Then you need to start sharing them, so the reader can judge for himself. Because the writeups you've linked to so far are exceptionally weak as far as supporting your point goes.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Jun 25th, 2010 at 07:46:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Mearshirmer and Walt's 'The Israel Lobby' may be weak in your own mind, but me thinks that's because you haven't read it. No matter, you're just not familiar with the Neocon cast of characters that go beyond the Kristols and Perles, which is understandable.

So shall we just quit this give and take and agree that we have a disagreement.

by shergald on Fri Jun 25th, 2010 at 09:59:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not saying it's weak on its own merits. I'm saying it doesn't support the case you're trying to make.

And I'm saying that you're relying excessively on a single reference with the associated risk of devolving into argument from authority.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Jun 25th, 2010 at 10:03:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Mearshirmer and Walt are indeed authorities, but they get their authority from their knowledge of the history of US-Israeli relations.

But it is you that have chosen to contradict Walt's thesis, and you have done so on the basis of the most trivial nonfact, that a Neocon gave Saddam, a nemesis of Israel, chemical weapons. Can it be said that your skepticism is based on a purely isolated event about which you made a false assumption. Why would a Neocon help Saddam if he were Israel-centric, was the conclusion we were to draw, and that was the evidence you provided to contradict Walt.

Weak tea, but since I have neither the time nor inclination to carry this on any further, as I said above, let's agree to disagree and leave it at that.

by shergald on Fri Jun 25th, 2010 at 10:16:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But it is you that have chosen to contradict Walt's thesis, and you have done so on the basis of the most trivial nonfact, that a Neocon gave Saddam, a nemesis of Israel, chemical weapons.

No, that would be not what I based my scepticism on. I base my scepticism on the fact that the neocons have a long history as a coherent group, a history that goes back to the Nixon administration, in which the bulk of the core actors received their political schooling. And that they have a well-defined domestic policy agenda to which Israel by all appearances is entirely incidental.

They are using Israel to further their purposes, not the other way around.

For a thorough discussion of several of the main figures, you can do worse than Dubose and Bernstein's Vice: Dick Cheney and the Hijacking of the American Presidency, which goes over Cheney's career and, in that process, touches upon most of the core neoconservative figures.

Or you could look into what the people who actually study the neoconservative faction have to say about their motives and agenda. With all due respect to the in-depth knowledge of your totemic authorities about US-Israel relations and the politics of the Near East, if you want to understand the internal power politics of the Beltway, you need to read people who study the Beltway, not people who study how the Beltway deals with a single, fairly minor, policy item.

Can it be said that your skepticism is based on a purely isolated event about which you made a false assumption.

It could be said. It would be wrong, but it could be said. It's a free country, after all.

You seem to be labouring under the delusion that the neoconservatives are a new thing that came into power with Bush the Lesser. I have no idea what gave you that idea, apart from neoconservative agit-prop, but these guys aren't a new and exciting development. They're the Nixon administration in drag.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Jun 25th, 2010 at 05:37:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"delusion that the neoconservatives are a new thing that came into power with Bush the Lesser. I have no idea what gave you that idea"

I don't know what YOU that idea from reading my posts. The history of the Neoconservative movement is well known to everyone and to say that 9/11 put it into practice, was never to suggest that it just started with the Bush administration. Silly notion. But that everyone who is a Neocon was or had to be a Neocon before or during the 1970s is fallacious.

by shergald on Fri Jun 25th, 2010 at 06:03:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
PS: I think Rumsfeld was Assistant Secretary of Defense at the time.

by shergald on Wed Jun 23rd, 2010 at 10:58:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And it is for certain that Iraq was on Israel's shit list way before the 2003 invasion. You may recall the scud attacks.

by shergald on Mon Jun 21st, 2010 at 03:15:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Completely and utterly irrelevant for determining whether the neocons are Israeli puppets or Israel is a neocon puppet, since Iraq was also on the neocons' shit list since at least 1991.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 12:41:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Iraq-Israel relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The relationship between Iraq and Israel has been a challenging one since 1948, when Iraq declared war on the newly established Jewish state, since then relations between the two states have remained hostile at best. Iraqi forces took part in action against Israel in 1948, 1967, and 1973, as well as firing dozens of Scud ballistic missiles at Israel during the 1991 Persian Gulf War (despite Israel not being involved in that war). Israel bombed the Iraqi nuclear reactor at Osirak in 1981.
Does that answer the question at hand?

Iraq was best buddies of the US against Iran between the 1979 Tehran embassy hostage-taking until some time before the 1991 gulf war, while Israel and Iraq were on each other's shit lists throughout.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 08:23:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Iraq-Israel relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Since 1948, Israel and Iraq have been implacable foes. Technically, Baghdad has been in a continuous state of war with Israel since 1948.[3] It sent armies to fight Israel in 1948 and 1967, and to back up Syria's defence of Damascus in the October 1973 war. Unlike Egypt, Jordan or Syria, Iraq has never been willing to discuss an armistice with Israel, let alone a peace accord like those Israel signed with Egypt and Jordan-despite some wishful mediation attempts by the United States and other Western countries with business interests in Iraq during Saddam Hussein's presidency.
The reference to Syria and Egypt is relevant because of the United Arab Republic that Iraq hoped to be part of. Also because Syria is not a US client but Egypt is.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 08:26:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Your reply should be addressed to Jake.

by shergald on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 10:23:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My reply is in the right subthread.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 10:26:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That does partly answer my question.

Clearly, the neocon-Israel relationship cannot be described as a simple client/suzerain relationship, since they held divergent opinions on a subject that was sort of important to both of them at the time.

Of course one should be careful about extrapolating from single data points, but it is a strike against the diarist's hypothesis.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jun 22nd, 2010 at 08:27:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
By the way, are you suggestion that Feith's role in fudging the data on Iraq was insignificant. You do know that his law offices have branches in New York and Israel, don't you?

by shergald on Mon Jun 21st, 2010 at 10:44:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Saddam lobbed a few SCUDs at Tel Aviv during Gulf Woar 1. But my understanding was that Israel is the outpost of civilisation in the middle east that prevents the entire area being overrun by crazed Muslim hordes, who would immediately topple the Saudi terror-dictatorship and cut off the flow of black stuff to the homeland.

It's all very strategic, I suppose.

Gulf Woar 2, This Time We Mean It™ was simply about pork barrels and oil, with a bit of bone marrow for the mad dogs in the Likud.

But the pork barrels and Woar Death Glory were more than enough to justify Iraq on their own - at least to the impotent old fascists who were running the operation.

If Saddam had been in any danger of developing nukes, Israel would naturally have been a prime target - eventually. But that was never imminent or even particularly likely.

Iran, of course, is a different issue. Iran cannot possibly be allowed to have nukes, because Tel Aviv really would be a possible target.

But that's proliferation for you.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jun 21st, 2010 at 10:50:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Western proIsrael propaganda continually underestimates the Persians. Why is Iran more likely to use its nuclear weapons than Israel?

Nukes are deterrants and they will never be anything more than that. But of course Iran is a Muslim country and we know all about Muslims. They're all terrorists at heart.

by shergald on Mon Jun 21st, 2010 at 11:27:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Keep digging.

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By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 21st, 2010 at 10:52:35 AM EST
I think Walt's piece is a good one if you want to address americans who actually believe that neo-cons are pro-democracy and all that. It might even be more efficient then checking their track-record of being anti-democracy in Iraq.

L. Paul Bremer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Others suggested that Jay Garner was replaced with Bremer because Bremer's vision of the reconstruction (selling off oil and other assets to foreign companies, holding elections later) lined up better with the Washington neoconservative vision than Garner's plan of holding early elections (90 days after the fall of Baghdad) and allowing the new elected government to decide what to do with the nation's assets.[27]

However, for an audience that does not believe that neoconservatism was ever about democracy, to show that Israel is the dog that is wagging the american tail, the article is weaker. For example, look at how Israel does not - according to the article - benefit from the relationship:

Stephen M. Walt: The Critic of My Friend is My Enemy | Sabbah Report

At the same time, this unusual relationship harms Israel by underwriting policies that have increased its isolation and that threaten its long-term future. It also makes it nearly impossible for U.S. leaders to voice even the mildest of criticisms when Israel acts foolishly, because to do so casts doubts about the merits of the special relationship and risks incurring the wrath of the various groups that exist to defend it.


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by A swedish kind of death on Thu Jun 24th, 2010 at 06:09:12 AM EST
To understand Israel, even why it appears to act foolishly, one needs to appreciate the long-term Zionist quest, and how that quest pretty much conditions its political decisions, like attacking the Mavi Maemara, and throwing Turkey, its former ally, to the dogs.

The Zionist quest is the quest for Greater Israel, with Judea and Samaria in the fold, if not the entire West Bank.

by shergald on Thu Jun 24th, 2010 at 08:00:37 AM EST
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