Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.

Monday Open Thread

by afew Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 11:54:52 AM EST

Over to you


Display:
FT.com / Europe - Merkel spells out €80bn spending cuts
The German government spelt out plans on Monday to cut public spending by no less than €80bn over the next four years, and cut at least 15,000 jobs in the state sector, in a drastic plan to cut its debt and deficit spending.

Angela Merkel, the chancellor, set out the plans after two days of intensive negotiations within the ruling coalition, rejecting proposals to increase income taxes in favour of more drastic cuts in expenditure. But higher taxation will hit the financial sector, including a future financial transaction tax, as well as air travel and the nuclear energy industry, in a deliberate emphasis on the environment.
...

The most important part of the savings are intended to come from a further reform of social security and the labour market, with measures to reduce payments for the long-term unemployed in a bid to get able workers back into jobs.

The measures also include an "ecological tax" on air travel, a tax on fuel elements for the nuclear energy industry and the introduction of a financial transaction tax, in addition to a bank levy, from 2013.



"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char
by Melanchthon on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 12:09:59 PM EST
Finland's Economic Growth on Shaky Ground

Finland's road to economic recovery will likely be bumpy. On Monday, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) forecast that Finland will grow by just 1.25 percent in 2010 and by two percent in 2011.

This doesn't worry me. Finland is investing for some years ahead. And anyway the low Euro is a boon to Finnish industry.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 12:18:23 PM EST
The VTT, by the missives they send me every month or so, seems to have the right idea: fund multi-disciplinary Applied Science and/or "Research Engineering" - call it what you will - efforts.  

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 12:59:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, if you'd been paying attention ;-)

I've posted several items to that effect. Their (Finnish R&D&I) latest buzzword is 'precompetitive' = cross-industrial cooperation in common research. 'Cross-industrial' is another Finnish buzzcompound de jour.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 01:19:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have been paying attention.

Not to you :-þ ppfffffffffttttttttttttttttttttttt

... but I've been paying attention.

:-D

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 01:54:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It seems as though the next casualty of the I/P conflict is going to be Helen Thomas who, according to a dKos diary, has been ordered to retire

I agree that what she said was pretty much  anti-semitic, but it's not so far from what the Israelis say about the Palestinians.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 12:40:47 PM EST
and no, two wrongs don't make a right.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 12:41:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What she said was pretty awful and, as far as I know, historically inaccurate.  Aren't most Israelis from other parts of the Middle East?

Nonetheless, it's sad to lose one of the few real reporters left.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 12:58:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The country of origin for Israelis is a politicized question. Here are the 2008 statistics from the Israeli government: CBS, STATISTICAL ABSTRACT OF ISRAEL 2009 (pdf). As I read the report, the majority of Israeli Jews as of 2008 were born in Israel.

3,884,600 Israel born
1,639,000 born abroad

For a historical view, I'm looking at the numbers compiled by Paul Burstein, Professor of Sociology, at University of Washington, for a lecture: WHO ARE THE [JEWISH] ISRAELIS? (pdf). Between 1919-5/1948, 90 percent of Jewish immigrants to what would become Israel came from Europe and the U.S. Between 5/1948-1961, 47 percent came from Europe and the U.S.

I think the answer to why more European Jews didn't immigrate to Israel after statehood is pretty obvious. During the Holocaust, 90 percent of the Jews living in Germany, Austria, Poland, and the Baltic nations were murdered by the Nazis. Overall across Europe, an estimated 67 percent of European Jews were killed by the Nazis.

by Magnifico on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 01:58:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In other I/P news, it's somewhat comforting to know that an entire group of Israeli commandos is apparently no match for an unarmed, retired Marine.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 12:56:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Anti-semetic this and anti-semetic that. The label is used in such a way as to devoid it of meaning.

When people get angry they sometimes respond in inappropriate ways - like Jews should be subject to what Palestinians are subject to. All such comments are "anti-semetic" as what Palestinians are subject to is extreme racism.

Just out of curiosity, how many Jews are legitimately inside occupied Palestine? There are certainly some.

For those Jews who are illegally inside occupied Palestine,  I would have guessed that they come from Israel, United States, and Russia mostly, perhaps in that order.

aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 01:32:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Umm, she suggested that the Jews should go back to Poland or Germany.

Those may be the ethnic background of some Israelis but, even if unintended, it's hard to avoid the assumption that there is an insinuation there that is unsavoury.

Plus, it's irrelevant where they came from. Israel as a geographical and mono-religious entityis and can't/won't be undone and we have to deal with where we are. It's more important where we go and that's where important and useful discussions should be directed. The fact that the Israelis themselves have no interest in such discussions is disastrous for the interests of both them and their allies, let alone those of the people they oppress by occupation.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 01:46:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You are correct, the location does have overtones - I was thinking that she said Europe. Indeed she is referring to the situation immediately after WWII - where some Jews went directly to Palestine because there was no other place for them to go. True refugees, not settlers.

(The reasons for this are in themselves not at all straight forward.)

aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 01:53:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
  1. Helen Thomas, on her own time, NOT in a professional capacity, speaks here mind, accurate or not.

  2. This old lady loses her livelihood, associates, etc. because she speaks her mind.

  3. Conclusion: Let this be a lesson to everyone.  Speak your mind against the beloved Jews and they will CRUSH YOU, regardless of who you are.  They have control of the US govt., therefore the US military, and they will do WHATEVER THEY WANT.  Today Helen, tomorrow ... who?


They tried to assimilate me. They failed.
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 03:29:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
For every one's peace of mind, could you please avoid references to Jews in a discussion about the I/P situation unless the reference is relevant and specific.

Reason being that you (and us) can get derailed by accusations about anti-semitism.

When I used it it was in reference to what Helen thomas said.

As for her losing her livelihood, not quite. She's well provided for, but having said what she said, anything she says on any subject is gonna get attacked. Now the extent to which your political media and process is entirely subjugated to the needs of a small country a long way away is something worth discussing in a different way. But never mention jewishness when doing so, it ain't worth the hassle.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 03:42:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not a historian nor social scientist.  I always thought human history was boring.  All those dates to memorize, and wars, etc.  To me the word "Jew" is a more inclusive and accurate term than "Israeli" as this morning's Washington Journal demonstrated ... American Jews sounding very Israeli.  And this whole anti-semitic bullshit.  What does "anti-semitic" supposed to mean, either by direct definition or with associated connotations?  What is the big deal?  To tell you the truth, with this whole British Petroleum fiasco, I'm not too high on the Brits right now.  And I wasn't gung-ho on the Russians during the '60's cold war. So?

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:00:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
c'mon, don't be deliberately dense. If you criticize Israel, you are talking about the policies of the government of Israel. The fact that they happen to be jewish is neither here nor there in that discussion, no more than the fact that most of the government of the USA is Christian is relevant to any discussion of their policies (whatever anyone thinks). It's about how people in power treat people who are not powerful.

the moment you start talking about jews with regard to the I/P situation you are into a whole world of grief of what it says about you and the baggage of attitudes you bring to the discussion. and people can use it against you, so if you want a serious discussion about Israel, refer to Israelis.

But if you just want to mess about and pretend to be gratuitously anti-semitic, then do it elsewhere. Please

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:15:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My association with the term "Jew".

  1. I come from a non-religious family.

  2. My best friend in high school was Dave W; his family was Jewish (like being Italian; I'm 1/2 Italian; So?).

  3. I went to Union College in upstate NY in the early '70s.  A lot of the students were from Jewish families in the NYC area.  So?  They're still just human beings like me, from more affluent families possibly (doesn't take much considering the poverty I came from), but who gives a rat's ass.

So what does "But if you just want to mess about and pretend to be gratuitously anti-semitic, then do it elsewhere. Please" mean?  I'm lost on that one.

Here, let's try this.  Can you give me a word in another context which would cause a similar problem?

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:34:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I too was raised in a non-religious environment, what's that got to do with the price of tofu ?

It ain't what you think, it's got everything to do with how your argument is perceived by others based on the words you choose to express it with. And in a discussion about how the Israeli government behaves, it just ain't worth mentioning their religion because there's far too much negative history involved. And that gives others an excuse to not hear you when you speak about it. Gives them an excuse to start a ruckus about something you didn't even mean.

To the extent that if anyone mentions the religion in relation to the I/P situation, I immediately assume that either they're anti-semitic and have a bug about it or they don't have anything serious to say so stop reading; I don't actually which is true cos I'm not gonna engage.

I really can't believe you have lived in the US and missed all of the implications here.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 05:02:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
OK, implications, let's see.

I'm reading Lehninger's Biochemistry 5th Ed.; I was thinking the other day, "my bible", next to my bed.  Can you believe this?  Nowhere in this important text have I come across the term Israeli or Jew?  Go figure.

If I actually get my truffles project going here in order to help right the CA ship (I've got a prospective "operative" for the actual hands-on;one of my former student's who's currently doing Master's work at Davis) and I'm zeroing in on getting into the Jerry Brown for Gov. camp.  And get this.  ANYONE who can help me with my project is welcome ... I don't care about your color, whatever.  Problem solving is problem solving.  If it gets people jobs, if it puts food on the table, that's what counts.  

That's who/what I am, and I ain't changin'.  I guess I haven't been paying attention to all the useless bullshit most people do.  I"M BUSY!

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 05:39:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I've been a fan of Thomas for a long time, but:

(1) How you behave, even on your own time, can impact others;

(2) Helen Thomas is almost 90 years old and probably wealthier than a good number of us here combined (I don't think her reporting is really a necessary component to her livelihood anymore); and

(3) Really?  The JewsTM?  I don't know why you insist on saying these offensive things, whether it's some need for attention or just you being genuinely flaky as fucking hell, but in either case, lose it.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 05:39:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
it's poisonous atmosphere of hatred present in many I/P debates - that's why many reasonable people I know prefer to steer away from them. But such atmosphere is more common in Muslim world (naturally), Israel iself, Europe (because of Holocaust), Russia (because of memory of pogroms) and US and Canada (due to affluence of Jewish diaspora there).

Here in Asia many people are unaware of complexities of Jewish question or even Nazism in those regions of the world. "Fascist" is abuse hurled by political opponents, especially at the door of right wing nationalist parties BJP and Shiv Sena. I saw in Indian magazines cartoons of their leaders depicted as Nazis. I remember my teacher on Buddhist philosophy, famous lama-rinpoche from the line of hereditary governors of Kham, Eastern Tibet, was preaching Buddhist values and taught how to avoid all unnecessary conflicts. One girl in audience (from Prague in Czech republic) asked him "How we should not argue with the followers of Hitler?". "Hitler who?" asked in turn rinpoche and added "even with followers of Hitler you should not argue unnecessary". Students from Europe were not satisfied and on the next lesson after conversation with European translator he backtracked somewhat. But I was thinking how inadequate "words" may be in teaching, it was his whole personality, radiating happiness and seemingly simple and problem free way of life which taught students more about Buddhist values.

by FarEasterner on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:34:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
True. I knew an Iranian Jew whose father when to Berlin for medical treatment in the late 1930s without having any idea what was going on there (thanks to an Iranian name, the Nazis had no idea he was Jewish). If even the Jews had no idea back then, I'm not surprised that many non-Jews are ignorant about it these days.
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 02:48:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Someone should tell Helen Thomas that her people should go back to Europe, too...

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 05:06:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Her ancestors are from Lebanon. You don't want to get into that....
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 05:10:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay, her husband's people...

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 05:28:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
She's a lesbian.  How presumptuous are you?

(Kidding, kidding!)

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 05:39:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Um, a Lebanese with Thomas for a last name...

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 05:43:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
She might live in Massachusetts.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 05:47:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Doood... that's a pretty funny riposte.

Brooks, David.

Thomas, Danny

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 06:18:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When you are naturalized you have a choice to change your name, no questions asked. Some opt for "American" names.
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 11:47:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
who died a couple of years ago, he was always "most popular Frenchperson" according to opinion polls (at least since the death of Jacques-Yves Cousteau) for his outstanding humanitarian work

... and who, in his nineties, publicly made anti-Semitic statements in support of a negationist friend.

I don't care how lucid this Thomas person is (I know nothing about her), but I note that old folks tend to go back to their roots. In both these cases, I find it hard to hold it against them (in the case of the abbé, he's from old Lyonnais bourgeois stock, and they are uniformly anti-semitic once you scratch the surface...) However it disqualifies them from public debate, necessarily. I think it's quite right she got the sack. Being "anti-"anything in the terms she used is completely beyond the pale.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 06:18:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Lyonnais bourgeois... are uniformly anti-semitic once you scratch the surface

Talk about sweeping (and insulting) generalisation!

Otherwise, I agree with your view: once such statements are made, they disqualify the person who made them from public debate.

BTW, Henri Grouès, a.k.a. Abbé Pierre, was my mother's cousin... ;-)

"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char

by Melanchthon on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 07:56:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sweeping (and insulting) generalisations are the spice of life... and meant to be taken with a grain of salt.

It's true that I don't get out much, but I honestly can't say that I have met with common-or-garden antisemitism except among bourgeois Lyonnais... twenty years ago I found it deeply shocking, these days I just make fun of it.

But I willingly replace "uniformly" with "often", OK? ;o)  

I have undoubtedly met non-anti-semitic bourgeois lyonnais, other than your good self... but how to be sure, unless one has actually discussed the subject with them?

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Jun 15th, 2010 at 05:15:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Seems like David Cameron has wasted no time promising Britain decades of austerity. I suspect he sounded a little too enthusiastic about what he's going to do to most people's incomes cos even my mother noted he was licking his lips and had a flush of excitement on when he said it.

He's certainly gonna grind down on the wages of ordinary people, probably whilst bemoaning the collapse in consumer spending that is undermining recovery. But he won't raise taxes on the rich nor will he inconvenience the City, whose fault this is, with a Tobin tax or halt tax exemptions which will raise all the money he needs and more in double quick time. so basically, not only have we had privatised profits and socialised losses for the banking sector, but the actual losses are spread amongst that strata of society who are entirely uninvolved with any investment activity.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 12:48:59 PM EST
The sad demise of serfdom will soon be corrected!

Looking at the recent election map ...

How long will Scotland and Wales put up with this?  (Serious question)  They certainly didn't vote for it and it is arguable most of England didn't vote for it either.

Of course NuLabour© wasn't promising anything much different -- AFAIK, you may have a better insight.

Does the UK need a Best Party?

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 12:55:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The fact that NuLab was no better was one of the more enraging aspects of the last election.

Whether Wales of Scotland are prompted to make further progress on independence is a moot point. I'm not sure either country can be economically independent (InWales or ChrisCook would know better than me), although if the euro recovers in the next few months that could become an attractive alternative.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 01:30:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Salmond talks with Cameron on tax powers - Herald Scotland | News | Politics

Salmond main goal is to move the coalition beyond last year's Calman Commission on devolution, which said the Scottish Parliament should have control of raising around £6bn in income tax, or a fifth of the Scottish budget.

Now, with many Tories and LibDems regarding Calman as inadequate, Salmond will press for far wider tax powers.

Under full fiscal autonomy - the SNP's preferred option short of independence - all taxes except VAT, which European rules says must be uniform in the UK, would be devolved.

Scottish Government ministers regard the new UK Government as an ally in their pursuit of more powers.



"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 01:52:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Whether Wales of Scotland are prompted to make further progress on independence is a moot point. I'm not sure either country can be economically independent (InWales or ChrisCook would know better than me), although if the euro recovers in the next few months that could become an attractive alternative.

I'm curious whether England is viable without membership in the European Union, because the Tories don't exactly love Brussels and we don't have any experience of new members entering the EU through subtraction.  What makes you think that England will automatically get the EU membership?  Or would want it?

It would be pretty hilarious to watch Festung Brittania wither on the vine as tariff walls get thrown up around the country, and the City moves to Switzerland.

Is it really Scotland, which is pro-European and probably could get into the EU regardless, really they one that needs to be worried here?

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 03:00:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yea, we probably make it on GDP cos of the City. the fact that these shysters aren't taxed properly so they represent no net benefit to the economy is a different matter.

If england or the UK ever tries to leave the EU, I will try my damndest to be the rat jumping off the sinking ship

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 03:08:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I shall join you in stealing a  rowing boat and heading for Calais  as a first step.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 03:17:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The distinctive and joyous choice between having one's foot nailed to the floor XOR being boiled in oil has been the standard for US elections since I can remember.

So, I "share your pain."

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 03:01:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why XOR?
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:48:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Exclusive Or.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 05:56:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You mean the choice is never for both?
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 11:45:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Given a number of possible results, 2 in this case, one and only one of the results is possible, available.

Contrast to the Inclusive Or where out of the number of possible result any or all of the results are possible, available.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 10:04:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Huffington Post might be progressive on some topics but is utterly reactionary when it comes to Honduras (or at least when it provides a forum for authors like Christopher Sabatini).  Look at this #*%!@!!!  Read it!  There is not one mention of the deteriorating human rights situation in the country or of the murders, clearly carried out to stifle democracy:

The community radio station, La Voz de Zacate Grande, 97.1 FM, was shut down on June 3 by 300 police and military, reports Reporters Without Borders. This is a community radio station, with a broadcast range of only 25 kilometers whose signal reaches 10 communities. (...) This same kind of overwhelming force was used to silence opposition radio stations Radio Progreso, Radio Globo, Radio Coco, and TV station Cholusat Sur during the coup.


"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne
by maracatu on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 01:44:45 PM EST
To anyone paying attention (x-ref Sven's comment to me, above) the US policy towards anything south of the Rio Grande has been appalling.  Democracy, Freedom, and Self Determination are fine as long as "they" elect the candidate the US picked to win, Freedom for US trans-nationals to steal anything they want, Self Determination to do what the US tells them to do.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 01:58:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, my bad! The article does mention it and provide a link in one single sentence.  I missed it.

"Beware of the man who does not talk, and the dog that does not bark." Cheyenne
by maracatu on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 02:17:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No harm, no foul. A link to a press release barely qualifies as a sign of recognition.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 05:30:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
D-Kos is a progressive chauvinist site. :-)

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 01:08:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I've known a few good drummers in my time, but this guy is hypnotic. Watch the whole thing. It develops. It pays off.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 01:51:26 PM EST
I've already had two hysterical laughing fits today. I'm not sure I could take another one.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 01:54:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This video is posted in honour of ATinNM

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 01:56:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
?

Thank you but ...

?

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 02:13:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Listen to the Master. "Hit the beats outrageously". 'A Theory of Existence - Professor S. Triloqvist. Claptrap and Slapdash Publications 1981.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 02:45:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I listen to learn Master Obi One WeirdCookie.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 02:58:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Reminiscent of Animal

Plus, if you can see this BBC prog, it's about drummers

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 02:04:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
heh, he looks like he hates that yellow jacket! (me too)

i bet there aren't any seams strong enough to take that kind of punishment for long.

cheesy band tho...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 02:38:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I see none of you quite get it. I'll wait for CH's opinion - if negative, then I'm going for an extra long sauna... ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 03:16:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
An Inside Look at Bernie Madoff's Life in Prison -- New York Magazine
But that evening an inmate badgered Madoff about the victims of his $65 billion scheme, and kept at it. According to K. C. White, a bank robber and prison artist who escorted a sick friend that evening, Madoff stopped smiling and got angry. "Fuck my victims," he said, loud enough for other inmates to hear. "I carried them for twenty years, and now I'm doing 150 years."
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 02:03:01 PM EST
Oh at 72 years old, I doubt he'll serve the full 150 years.
by Magnifico on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 02:21:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He's doing 150 years, my ass.  He's essentially in protective custody.  Someone in the know (I think he was interviewed on the Daily Show weeks ago) said that Madoff stole from the wrong people and if he was free, he'd be dead.  Suck it up Bernie.  You got caught!

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 03:22:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I dunno. If the wrong people wanted him to pay the price, he'd be dead already.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 03:28:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know.  Maybe the US can still do something right ... jail people and keep them alive.

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 03:33:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Did shergald just delete a diary? thereby deleting all the valid meta-criticism?

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 03:16:36 PM EST
Seems like it. Although I agreed with the criticism, it had elements of a bit of a pile-on or maybe just a dam of it bursting. I don't think there is much divergence of view here about the I/P situation and most of the time there is so little that's new to say that it gets a bit overkill.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 03:26:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One good thing has come out of the recent Gaza episode ... more conversation on the I/P situation here at ET.  Usually shergald posts stuff and there are few comments.

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 03:36:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There'd be more comments if shergald posted better stuff less often.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 03:38:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Exactly

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 03:44:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Really.  Guess I haven't been paying close enough attention and I don't know enough "facts" to begin with.  I will say this.  Like many people I learned about the "Jewish situation" back in the late '60s in high school social studies class and I felt so outraged about what happened to the Jews in Europe during WWII. This A.M. on Washington Journal (CSPAN) the first topic was the Helen Thomas situation.  I'd say 80% of the callers sided with Helen, and the last caller said that the Israelis learned from their Nazi torturers and have turned Gaza into a ghetto.  I no longer feel sympathetic towards the Jews/Israelies ... I could be their next victim.  I'm not foolish enough to believe that it will always be "someone else's problem".

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 03:48:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think you understood my comment at all.

Do you take us all for dickheads in this place or what?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:06:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, actually, just the opposite.  It's one of the reasons that I visit ET regularly and the only place I post comments regularly.  First - HuffPo , Second - SACBEE (my local), and then here.  So ... dickheads?  Never came to mind.  Intelligent ... absolutely.  Left leaning socially ... usually.  That's why I feel at home here.

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:21:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
OK. So I said that shergald's diaries would get more comments if those diaries were better - ie contained more thought and less cut and paste - and posted less often (not once a day).
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:39:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... contained more thought and less cut and paste ...

EXCELLENT!  Why do I say that?

  1. I'm gung-ho on education.  This whole conversation will hopefully make shergald a better diary writer.

  2. If his "cut and paste" material is accurate and relevant (assumed) and would not usually make it to ET, saying that it required "more thought" ...?  Hell, I don't mind raw info as long as it's accurate.


They tried to assimilate me. They failed.
by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:47:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Everyone cuts and pastes, they often just paraphrase, rewrite the writings of others as if it is their own, and then add an opinion. There is very little originality, simply because most things of importance have already been said. Personally I don't care as long as there are references and links.


by shergald on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:56:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Howdy sher.  Quite honestly, I'm in the middle.  The whole I/P thing looks like a land grab to me ... straight thievery.  We have so many REAL problems on this planet, species endangering problems, and this whole I/P situation takes up so much time, energy, resources, ...  what stupid nonsense.

Keep 'em comin' kid. (I know you will.)

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 05:27:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Everyone cuts and pastes, they often just paraphrase, rewrite the writings of others as if it is their own, and then add an opinion. There is very little originality

I think you need to start providing some examples here, to back up that accusation.

But maybe I'm just repressing you with these unrelenting and incessant calls for evidence...

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 07:59:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You're harrassing Shergald, Jake, and I find it's unbecoming your usual  equanimity and the editorial board's aspirations to international policy consultancy.

Salon is a C&P venue --presumably this is the reason why you and others instructed Shergald to post in future to fit that format. Take " Israel and Turkey: no love lost" or "Spain Crisis Report" or "It's not just about the ships." Review ARG's last five posts. Retrieve Mr Cook's LQDs, fairleft's scrapbooks, an InWale's TUC briefs... Explain why readers rarely comment on borderjumpers' regular dispatches --surely this series is "original." Tell us, what data analysis did this poster add to "Ups And Downs: OECD trade figures"...

If I/P controversy disturbs group hygiene, admit to an executive decision to limit ET community exposure to confrontational exchanges between subscribers. Say, one per quarter. Have Colman post another proclamation.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 09:06:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree, policing 300 visitors to the site (according to Estimurl) is too much.
by FarEasterner on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 09:17:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The other people mentioned bring their own thinking and/or personality to the site on top of whatever repost diaries they submit. Shergald uses this site exclusively to repost material available elsewhere.

Jake should have backed off at some point - but Shergald really flamed out.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 11:07:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Flame out?

<squint>

Is ET a beauty pageant of "repost material" ? I would say so, to judge by the criteria you're suggesting. And if that analogy is indeed apt, Shergald will always lose. Shergald will always lose because every I/P news file --this "repost material"-- is an ugly, ugly reminder of an intellectual history and moral depravity abiding in the politicians, the leadership, about whom we gossip daily and money fetishes. Every "diary" entry is a testament to our impotent regard for policy decisions in which we do not participate.

Do you know, are you certain, Shergald uses ET exclusively to publish I/P "repost material"? Or do you mean to say, Shergald publishes only I/P "repost material" at ET and that reliable, that vaguely ritualistic devotion to the topic, is offensive in itself ... because you could retrieve the same news from GOOG's mighty syndicated feeds, if you wanted to, if you were in the mood.

When was the last time you wanted to examine current I/P events? And where did you search... Perhaps you launched the GOOG, Yahoo!, yer CNN RSS. God forbid, you punched a keyword into one of two ET engines -- would that word have been Israel, Palestine, or Shergald?

Come closer, Millman, and I will tell you a secret. DrMarketTrustee would tell me bitterly, "We live in a superficial world." He said that because he knew I would deny it. I appreciate the work Shergald contributes to ET. I appreciated Shergald's labors at the GOS, too. For I know, the ugly life is no easy life to lead, Millman. It is simply necessary. It is a prerequisite of beauty some of us long for. I will not deny Shergald.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 01:01:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Flame out - something like 50 comments of refusing to accept any level of criticism - and returning fire with a pathetic salvo of ad hominems against people who put serious effort into this site.

All over the fact that his or her "beauty pageant" material makes more sense filed in the salon instead of as a diary - where all the other news material goes.

Every "diary" entry is a testament to our impotent regard for policy decisions in which we do not participate.

If only we all followed a Christ-like path, evil would disappear tomorrow, amirite?

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 02:52:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, I don't know anything about Christ-like paths, but last autumn I did spend a few weeks canvassing DC for donations to Amnesty International. That wasn't easy work. Politely arresting the attention of people in a hurry is not effortless despite the inspirational portraits and messages on the walls at headquarters. I memorized a script and was on my feet for 8 hours. Each evening a crew leader debriefed me and analyzed my productivity ($/stop, stops/flag, flags/hour) on a laptop display. 2 out of 3 pedestrians that passed us by was either talking on a phone or listening to an MP3 player. I collected background on the issues from the web, printed it to share with co-workers. Some people who stop actually start a conversation. They want more than script. Two consecutive days short of quota triggered dismissal. The script begins with a smile, "Hi! Do you have a minute for Amnesty International?" The woman who barrelled past snarling, "You're an ass," was memorable. But so was the one who walked to the end of the block, then turned around. I messed up: We chatted more than ten minutes; I was supposed to close in six.

I pay attention to how readers "use" the interface or don't.  I was paying attention to the "level of criticism" that began in Shergald's last post before turning up in OT. And I first reactions were: the site architecture isn't deep enough to warrant this pretension to editorial integrity; and the frequency of these C&C tests are becoming routine...

to what end?

RLY

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 06:27:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What are C & C tests, please?

(All I can find is that C & C means a video game called Command & Conquer).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 09:04:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Command and Control?
A management style, directly inspired by the military...
by Bernard on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 01:52:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the site architecture isn't deep enough to warrant this pretension to editorial integrity

That's true at the moment - but if the diary section were to become spammed by all kinds of LQD stuff that should be in the salon instead, the site will become far harder to navigate.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 01:03:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
some day, you may be correct. until then, Viva Lily.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Wed Jun 9th, 2010 at 09:26:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
thanks, cat, it's nice to hear a just defence.

i too have appreciated shergald's contributions, and on the extremely rare occasions when he has commented on other threads, both here and at booman, i have been impressed by what s/he has to say.

it's a great pity that this flame war took place, i would be sorry to lose his/her work here at ET.

borderjumpers post lotsa diaries that don't excite a lot of interest, but are similarly important. neither do they post on other threads, but they are single-issue posters too.

it's not a problem really, but if shergald simply used the salon for what it's for, this whole mess could have been avoided.

now s/he understands ET better, perhaps we won't see this wasteful bloodletting again.

i/p is depressing, and that's why i too am grateful that someone reminds us of it, just in case anyone has had any new bright ideas.

because it's the cause of so much pain and terror in the world today...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 04:29:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're welcome, melo. Times are hard. Tension is high. Good humor snaps.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 06:30:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The IP conflict is an ongoing historical event, with developments happening every week, sometimes every day. It is all about news and sometimes analysis of what is 'really' happening and being said. No comments are necessary, unless someone has something to add about these events or analyses.

I'm frankly not sure what the difference would be if Avnery, a journalist and observer of the IP conflict for over 40 years, posted his own piece or someone else did so for him. But that is precisely the point. It apparently changes the substance even though the words are the same. And that was just the problem this morning.

Finally, I don't believe there are really very many people on this site who qualify as great writers or analysts or experts, or who have the credentials to criticize the work of others. And IMO it is those few who are not likely to engage in it.


by shergald on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:52:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Should you actually believe the last two sentences you wrote, one might then even assume you are completely unaware of the hole you're digging for yourself.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 05:02:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm frankly not sure what the difference would be if Avnery, a journalist and observer of the IP conflict for over 40 years, posted his own piece or someone else did so for him.

Now, first of all, that wasn't actually Avnery's piece. The most frequently used byline I found when I Googled it was one M.J. Rosenberg. Just for the record, and since ET is usually quite fond of correct attributions.

Second, the difference is that if Rosenberg or Avnery post in person it means that (a) they had our specific audience in mind when they wrote the piece, (b) are (or should be) prepared to elaborate on points of fact, policy and analysis and (c) presumably would not all post here in person, so we would not be inundated with diaries that cover essentially the same ground in terms of content.

Finally, I don't believe there are really very many people on this site who qualify as great writers or analysts or experts, or who have the credentials to criticize the work of others. And IMO it is those few who are not likely to engage in it.

Would you like some more rope? Perhaps another shovel?

As an aside, I asked that question once, albeit in a somewhat more guarded and (hopefully) polite fashion. You might be interested in what turned up in that discussion. Or maybe not. But that would be your loss.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 07:39:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What is ET's specific audience, Jake? I'd like to know. Has the editorial team collected and prepared a demographic deck? I don't recall being invited to respond to such a survey.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 09:17:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"great writers or analysts or experts"

Name them. I'll start:

Jerome a Paris

Your turn.


by shergald on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 10:14:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
DeAnander, Crazy Horse, the stormy present, afew, Izzy, InWales...

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 02:35:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure the topic of "great writers" is one we should visit. I've been stunned by writings (and comments) here and there from so many contributors... it's why we're here.

But shergald also mentioned experts, and this is where ET shines. Seems all of us have expertise in some area or another. I have no training in finance, and learned what dangerous little i know from deal-making. Thus here there are many, yourself included, who have up-leveled my understanding (to the level of merely confused.)

I never knew anything about trains, except how to get on or off them, but DoDo's diaries are absolutely fantastic excursions into the current state of the global industry. Or his diaries on Eastern European history. Or the recent analysis of Merkel, where i was brought to a deeper understanding even though i already lived through some of the events in Germany.

We've been forced by watching Chris Cook hone his arguments to examine the financial world through completely different eyes.

The key point is bringing either original thinking or a compendium of others' thinking to the site.

i have no wish to discuss the place for shergald's posts, i can click or not as i choose, but deleting is crossing the line.

Direct to shergald: you who posts for two years here and doesn't know what Salon is should check your attitude, and realize what a privilege this place is. (that's right, you deleted the evidence that you didn't know what Salon was, so you'll have to take my word for it.)


"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 03:49:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Afew: I looked at my last six diaries and found that I have enough comments, and don't need any more. And thanks for recommending at least three of them.

Recommendations for Obituary: The nine Turkish activists massacred on the Mavi Marmara
Oui
Mnemosyne
Migeru
FarEasterner
edwin
28 comments

Recommendations for MV Rachel Corrie on Her Way to Gaza
Sven Triloqvist
Fran
Oui
FarEasterner
edwin
14 comments

Recommendations for LQD: The Hypocrisy of Netanyahu
ask
afew
ARGeezer
24 comments

Recommendations for BREAKING STORY: MV 'Rachel Corrie' sets off for Gaza
afew
FarEasterner
edwin
3 comments

Recommendations for LATEST NEWS ON GAZA AID FLOTILLA-14 peace activists killed
Melanchthon
Fran
dvx
Nomad
ATinNM
afew
nicta
siegestate
FarEasterner
edwin
BruceMcF
Turambar
generic
Frank Schnittger
ARGeezer
santiago
fairleft
80 comments

Recommendations for Chomsky not aboard Gaza Freedom Flotilla, just Turks and...
ask
dvx
talos
11 comments


by shergald on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 05:12:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We're obviously out to get you...

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 05:37:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Next time just hijack someone else's diary. What good did all that ranting do? You wasted a couple of hours of your own time, and that of others.

by shergald on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 06:06:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, the attempt to explain the problem to you was wasted, wasn't it?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 06:38:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Only a small few of you see a problem. In a comment, I listed my last six diaries before this one on this tread, along with recommending parties and comment numbers, and all of them I believe made the rec list. Look it up.

Then come back and tell me again what the problem was.  

by shergald on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 06:46:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
New User Guide:
What are the rules for quoting off-site material?

As a general rule, we recommend users to follow three guidelines:

  1. Identify your source - if it is on the web, you should link to it. (Linking is explained in point How do I embed a link? above.)
  2. Put the quoted text in blockquote (for that, see How do I insert a quote box? below). This helps readers to quickly recognise text you didn't author.
  3. Last but not least: try to keep your quote as short and concise as possible, ideally 3 paragraphs per blockquote or less. If readers want to read the full article you quote from, they can do so by following your link. A quote should only incite interest, or show claims you react to/follow up with comments in your own words. The reason you quote a passage can be further emphasized by bolding key words or half-sentences.

The above guidelines are strongly recommended for quotes from anything published off ET, be it a newspaper article or a comment in a discussion forum; or indeed even for quotes from other diaries on ET. However, they should be followed stritly as rules for copyrighted material.
(example)

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 07:12:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The source was an email. Should I have quoted Verizon, where my email account is located, or should I have quoted its source, Tikkun, where it would not be found?

Like I said somewhere, you're getting to sound very silly carrying this on.


by shergald on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 07:54:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Google is your friend.

That might also have helped you get the byline right.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 08:02:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here's a diary of yours: you already know the title.

1. A few intro lines:
An IM conversation provoked by the new Party of European Socialists "Manifesto 2009" interactive site that we're hoping one of their people is going to announce properly:

2. blockquoted comment:

Migeru: The PES manifesto page has an entry about biofuels which assumes that biofuels are a solution to global warming!!!
Colman: What? I missed that one!
Migeru: "A much favored cure for global warming might be worse than the disease. According to a new report the use hydrogen and other biofuels will make energy prices more changeable, increase food prices and even result in a higher emission of greenhouse gases."
Colman: Eh?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Colman: That doesn't assume that.
Migeru: "a much favoured cure for global warming might be worse thanthe disease"
Migeru: means biofuels are a much favoured cure for global warming
Colman: Uh, growing crops and burning them for fuels should have zero net CO2 output
Colman: If they're not being fed with petrochemicals.
Migeru: As opposd to being eaten and pooped and returned to the earth in which case they capture CO2
Colman: Well, not if they're then composted and grown from again.
Colman: CO2 is part of the output of the decay process.
Migeru: It seems marginal, in any case
Colman: Not compared to using fossil fuels.
Colman: If you could replace all fossil fuel use with biofuels you'd have zero CO2 output from the process. Very slightly negative in fact.
Colman: I think.
Colman: Because the cycle ends up locking carbon in unusable forms.
Migeru: Another one..."Surely it must be possible to produce biofuel without compromising food production and destroying the environment?"
Migeru: Surely!
Colman: That's a question looking for a positive answer. A bit plantive.
Migeru: Well, surely not
Colman: Second generation stuff (using waste from food production) could satisfy that requirement, in theory.
Migeru: I gave them our estimate that the entire EU oil production is not enough to replace 10% of the diesel
Colman: But the capacity of second generation produciton is another matter.
Migeru: Currently it is zero
Colman: And since we don't know what its output would be we don't know what it could do.
Migeru: It's experimental technology
Colman: Yes.
Migeru: Of course, the EU could just source its biofuels from Brazil and Indonesia
Migeru: The market will provide, and all that
Colman: Not exactly sustainable, maybe.
Colman: I don't know what effect that would have on soil depletion.
Migeru: But it's not the EU's problem, is it?
Colman: It is in my book.
Colman: Now, I'm going to cut and paste this discussion into a diary.
Migeru: Er...

A final line:
There's a pile of not very well sourced assumptions in that!

Would you like to tell me if you have a writing problem?

by shergald on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 07:57:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My, my, at this rate we're gonna run out of shovels before you're done digging...

Incidentally, around here it is considered good form to include a link to the source of quoted material. Some blockquote tags would also be nice...

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 08:05:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Let the man/woman reply for him/herself. Afterall, sometimes the critics get critiqued too.

by shergald on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 10:18:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And you're beginning to sound silly.

by shergald on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 06:42:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Mei zwei centavos ...

We've never had any policy about diaries.  We've never had any restrictions on diaries other than content be intelligent.  Shergald is sometimes the only new diarist on any particular day.  

I can either read, read and comment, or ignore as I wish.

I, frankly, don't see a problem.


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 06:04:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's my policy too. If it doesn't look interesting to you, don't click on. Very simple.

by shergald on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 06:14:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
except that if half the diaries in the recent list are by you, it makes the site slanted. The fact is that we don't have a lot of diaries, so one per day on that topic can be a bit too much, in terms of relative weight of topics here.

Can we at least agree that while I/P is certainly relevant for a site which care about international affairs, it is not and should not be its main focus?

Wind power

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 03:42:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It could be, if we had the resident expertise in the community to provide a quality of analysis similar to what we do with other subjects we cover.

The problem with shergald's newspaper clippings is that he brings no expertise to the table, in fact he brings no evidence of higher brain activity to the table at all.

As I said before shergald flushed that comment down the memory hole, and as I maintain still, it would be possible to write a news aggregation spider that would add all the value shergald adds to European Tribune.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 08:41:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
JakeS:
It could be, if we had the resident expertise in the community to provide a quality of analysis similar to what we do with other subjects we cover.
Actually, we probably do.

Let's see, just off the top of my head:

kcurie did his PhD in Israel in the not too distant past.
Also recently, stormy was a working in the middle east (and travelling regularly around it), and she speaks arabic.
gk is Jewish (I forget whether he's a dual Israeli citizen) and has displayed a wealth of obscure knowledge.
ceebs has knowledge of international law.

And so on and so forth.

And, in fact, these people regularly diary or comment on the I/P problem. We had lively in-depth discussions of the 2006 Lebanon war, for instance.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 11:41:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Jerome, a simple comment or email from administration would have been sufficient.

Granted, due to the recent Middle East drama, more diaries were posted as events unfolded, and there have been short stretches where one a day was posted but also periods in the past two months when a week went by without a posting. Of the last 20 diaries posted, three are mine, but I do notice that Fairleft also posted a lot during the flotilla crisis and its aftermath.

It is not my intent to overwhelm the site, and I did not believe I was doing that.

Can you give me a number/week which I can stick to? Or if you wish, I can actually schedule in a manner that does not exceed a percentage of IP diaries, say in the last 20 postings.

by shergald on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 09:16:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But Shergald was totally oblivious to all of that, uninterested in any sort of engagement or debate, and fixated on the (invented) idea that he/she was about to be banned.  Meh.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 03:36:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
False.

by shergald on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:30:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You deleted the evidence, and you think you have the right to judge?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:40:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I used the word once in questioning' you said fixated on. Ridiculous.

by shergald on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 05:14:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Below are the six main cases of serious misbehaviour that may lead to ed team intervention.

...

Diary deletion

Sometimes users may feel strongly offended by a discussion on ET, or have second thoughts about posting a diary after a controversy developed in its comment threads. It has happened that in the heat of anger, a user has deleted his/her own diary/ies.

However, deletion in the Scoop software ET uses, is irrevocable. Neither the diary nor its comments thread can be retrieved. By deleting a diary, the diarist doesn't just delete her/his own content: the contributions of other users to the diary will be lost, too. To prevent the deletion of more diaries along with the respective comment threads, any editor at hand can intervene to withdraw that diarist's right to delete own diaries. This measure only intends to protect others' comments, no negative repercussions follow for the diary-deleting user (apart from general disapproval, because diary deletion is not cool).

End of story.


By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 05:27:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
shergald didn't appear to even know, after years of posting here, that there's little or no divergence of view here on the question. S/he wasn't aware that JakeS was being accused on another thread of being a Hamas lover.

The reason it may have looked like a pile-on is the reaction from shergald and Oui: immediately slandering this place as wishing to stifle I/P diaries.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 03:37:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
First Helen mentioned this and now you do. What is this commonly held ET view?
by Magnifico on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:07:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Afaik We're in favour of the two state solution based on the 67 borders.

We might have differences about our ideal solutions, but while there is absolutely no chance of any conceivable Israeli govt agreeing to progress towards such a solution, there's really nothing to say.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:19:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I believe we are in favour of good debate where people can not only exchange by informed opinions but also defend contradicting positions. I was looking at new pro-Israeli poster who wandered here in "it's not just about the ships" thread and I was waiting for some good points. So far in vain. On the web there is a lot of good diaries in defense of Israel for example this one: Europe to Israel: Don't Annoy Us With Facts on Frum Forum, exploring attitudes of Europeans to Israel. No doubt with what purpose such diary was published yet it's worthy to read and will take extra effort to rebuff it for those interested in such debates.
by FarEasterner on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 05:05:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe it reads differently where you are but that essay comes across as patronizing, self-pitying and a little bit paranoid.

It's not that there are big things wrong with it, just in each paragraph I disagree with interpretation to the extent that by the time I get to the final third of the essay, it has departed so far from any understanding I have of the situation that the world view expressed is unrecognizable

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 05:16:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
that probably was one of the aim of such articles. To create [mis]understanding of reality in minds of readers. But such spins within spins, slight miseinterpretation here, slight [de]emphases there make it more difficult to untangle such propaganda pieces.

I wondered at above mentioned new pro-Israeli poster - did he read only Krauthammer and likes? With such intellectual arsenal he had no chance here to advance his point of view though not many visitors to ET blindly buy pro-Palestinian position. Lesson: "Always do your homework!"

by FarEasterner on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 06:51:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why, have you read pro-Israel opinions here?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:25:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But neither are we "anti-Israel" either (I hope).

I despise Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, not just because of its immediate effects upon its intended victims, but also because it is doing harm to Israel and its inhabitants in the long term. Perhaps to the point of threatening its own demise from within.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:32:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
because only those who don't actively avoid the topic express themselves.

Wind power
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:58:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
First Helen mentioned this and now you do. What is this commonly held ET view?

ET doesn't have a specific policy on any particular issue (except in a few cases where we have issued whitepapers, petitions and/or responses to EU Commission questions). But my feeling is that mutual recognition along the '67 borders is the preferred starting point.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 08:15:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No one slandered 'this place' and that is a total mischaracterization of what transpired. Oui and I were reacting to the incessant, unrelenting criticism and the ad hominums and insults that JakeS began engaging in.

In short, a few members hijacked the diary, one which on the rec list, and continued to rant about 'meta' issues through 55 comments, one even implying that it should not be on the rec list, but buried out of sight in Salon comments.

Let's just leave it there.

by shergald on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:29:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Once again, you deleted, which is an act of vandalism. Once you have posted, your diary and the comment thread are not your property to dispose of.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:53:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On a small point of PNing. I think diaries belong to the people who post them, but the comments don't. However the comments are not understandable without the context of the diary. Tricky one. But you are right.

Personally, I have found Shergalds' LQD's to be, occasionally, useful as a counterbalance to lamestream.  However, I also agree that many of them would be items better placed in the Salon - or summarised in a weekly diary with insight.

The problem is, perhaps, one of the profile of ET. There is a central ET political thrust, but that thrust is possibly only useful if tempered by wider subjects. Too many of the wider subjects appearing on the splash page do affect the perceived profile of the forum to the casual visitor. (Although we still haven't established what is the use of casual visitors)

I would hope that people like Shergald can continue to post, as long as we all understand that what we should desire more than anything here is insight - micro or macro. This is a community, not a bulletin board.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 05:20:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yea, that's the phrase

This is a community, not a bulletin board.


keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 05:33:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In that thread shergald demonstrated in spades he's not made an effort to be part of the community in the over 2 years he's been using the site as a bulletin board to pin his diaries on.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 07:05:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Has borderjumpers been banned yet?

I wrote elsewhere on my views of the notion of a "community" on a political blog. It's somewhere between the insults and the quotations of official policy.

In short, it said....look it up.

by shergald on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 10:23:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Funny you should bring up borderjumpers.

They have at least three redeeming qualities that your contributions lack:

  1. They write the stuff themselves.

  2. They bring actual expertise to the table.

  3. They cover material (rural development and sub-Saharan Africa) that is otherwise under-represented on European Tribune. No sane and sober analyst could claim that Palestine would be under-represented on ET without your spamming.

Are you done with the tu quoque fallacies now?

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 10:43:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why do you keep talking about banning? Hardly anyone has ever been banned from ET. I think it amounts to three people, one for cyberstalking and sockpuppetting, one for spamming by repeatedly posting the same content-less comments and sockpuppetting, and maybe one more for being a total asshole though I think they left on their own.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 02:25:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry Helen, but I must disagree.

The notion of a "community" on a blog is a seriously flawed idea. It would eventually lead to a conformance of minds, a restriction of opinion (let's not offend), and a rejection of recalcitrant thinking. A group-think psychology is the last thing one needs on a political blog where debate should be unfettered.

Besides, I would suggest that out of the 2,000 daily visitors to ET (last site meter reading I saw), only a handful of members would seem to want to use ET as their community. I suggest that if people are lonely that they get out and knock on their neighbor's door and invite them over.

I just saw one effect of the "community." Members of this so-called ET community got together and formed a diary police force, and their attitude was that they owned the place, and could make quality rules about what is or is not acceptable to them (here), while the remainder of the 2,000 had nothing to say.

So count me out of your community, those few of you who seem to need it.


by shergald on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 09:14:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, but we are a community.. of sorts. Not necessarily of like minds, I agree with your dismissal of this as a source of restricted opinion, but certainly of fairly open minds (which may seem a strange thing to say in the midst of the current shit-storm).

As Stephen Colbert once acidly stated, "truth has a liberal bias" and certainly the willingness to test our prejudices against analysed reality is one of the hallmarks of people here. Carl Sagan once said "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" and the bullshit meter here is set to stun. Sure, yea, it gets annoying when you're required to back things up when you shoot your mouth off glibly, as I've been prone to do on far too many occasions. But it means that you can trust the information and analysis on this site in a way few others can boast.

Sure we tend to like mind on some things, after all if I was a teabagger or a freeper I'd be going elsewhere. But my prejudices get challenged too. There is a community here, one of attitude.

It's a shame that right wingers don't visit often, that we can't have a decent discussion with people with whom we genuinely disagree. So long as we respect the other's integrity there's really no reason why we can't, but frankly the intellectual firepower on display here is pretty intimidating even when you agree with their views. I've seen right wingers worn down here until they don't return but that's not something to celebrate as we lose the ability to have our assumptions tested as well. It's just that if you wanna really take issue with some of the guys here, you really need to know what you're talking about and few can make that grade.

So I stand by the fact that we're a community but not, as you suggest, a commonnality.

We welcome your input, but we've probably had more of what you actually think in this thread than across all the diaries you've posted. and that's a shame because somebody as passionate as you are has a lot to contribute if only you realised it.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 05:59:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Right. And it is the sense of community that motivates the production of so much good content here. Without it, ET would be run-of-the-mill.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 06:15:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Helen, I appreciate your views, but I disagree with them. There is a small group of members here who relate to each other in a manner of familiarity, who like to be considered a community. But the overwhelming majority of the 2,000 daily visitors and diarists, I might add, who come here do not necessarily share the feelings that they are part of a community. IMO, it is just a group of "old timers" who frequent ET daily, and get to know one another, that share this idea.

Since I joined ET two years ago, I watched the site visitor counter go from one thousand to two thousand. Of course that was entirely due to the start of my posting here, if you believe in spurious correlation. But it was certainly not due to some kind of "quality" notion, but rather the information visitors get from the site, and possibily Jerome's past association with DKos, where he attained some following. But one thing is for certain: the site meter didn't increase in spite of IP representation here, nor did it increase because of a lot of people came here to join a community, nor did it increase because of original writings as some like to think. Community is just the concept of a handful of members who spend a lot of time here.

Again this is my opinion.

by shergald on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 10:41:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A community of fairly open minds. You may wish to restrict that to those who take advantage of the opportunity to blather on here, but I would doubt that the majority of those 2,000 odd lurkers come here to tut tut at our stupidity and move on. They too are part of that community of people who want to find out the news and test their opinions of it against the reactions of those here.

They also commune who only watch and lurk, to grind a poetic phrase into the dust. They give us heft on google, they raise our profile in terms of hit rate. People who read the same newspaper sometimes think of themselves as a community, even if they never meet. The feel they have a commonality of attitudes, feel they share values. Even if they never meet, they feel their own views are validated by the fact that others out there are just like them.

Guardian readers even name themselves Guardianistas. Yet they do not know each other, barely even meet on CiF which is infested by the US right wing pushing back on the liberal menace. They are a community. and they never speak to each other.

We are a community. All 2,000 daily visitors. And we have a commonality, a sharing and most of us have never met nor even will know their opinion as they lurk. But htey are us and we are them. European Tribune - A community of fairly open minds and damned by that faint praise. You evidently do not comprehend what that means, the pride in being part of this. Your loss

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 11:04:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Can we just agree to disagree?

We have a different notion about just who those 2,000 visitors, and just what they are here for, and I don't think it is for a lesson in creative writing or commaradarie. It's about information. It's the same reason I go to many sites that I'm not even a member of. Information, content. There are many excellant writers, for example, at Huffington Post, Open Left, Salon, and other left wing sites, but if the content is uninteresting to me, I move on. I don't dwell on the grammar and beautiful sentence structure of their writings. Nothing could be more wasteful.

by shergald on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 12:53:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
shergald:
Since I joined ET two years ago

This is not meant to bluntly contradict you, but your impression of the past is mistaken. The log shows you joined ET on the 14th February 2006, well over four years ago.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 11:16:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But the first of 209 diaries was on January 1, 2008.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 11:27:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That is true but I did not begin to post or post regularly until about two years ago.

by shergald on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 12:07:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On a small point of PNing. I think diaries belong to the people who post them, but the comments don't. However the comments are not understandable without the context of the diary. Tricky one. But you are right.

As soon as there is one comment to the diary posted by someone other than the diarist, then, the diary is not theirs to delete.

We have had cases where the diary body has been blanked out by the diarist. That is actually acceptable.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 05:36:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
That is actually acceptable.

....and even an improvement :-)

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 08:09:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hold up.

Use constitutes a work-for-hire agreement?

LOL!

You understand that the labor performed is a "work for hire."  [Click here and type company name] shall own all rights to the work in its name or otherwise.

You warrant that the work will be an original work that has not been in the public domain or previously created, and that the work will be free of any unauthorized extractions from other sources. You further understand that [Click here and type company community name] has the privilege of referring to you as a vendor in sales and marketing presentations and materials.

Please signify your approval of this agreement by completing the form below and return one copy to us for our files.

Y'all may want to reconsider working that boilerplate into the new account form and NEW USER GUIDE.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 06:31:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
PSA: American Society of Journalists and Authors

EKmMD

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 06:36:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No one here has the right to judge "a total mischaracterization of what transpired" after deleting the evidence, the discussion as it took place.

In other words, you lost your right to comment, just as i would have had i done the same.

We can't "just leave it there," because you didn't.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:56:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the ad hominums and insults that JakeS began engaging in

The only thing he did was calling you an astroturfer and a troll. Everything else was pretty factual.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 05:14:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't remember calling him a troll. I troll-rated some of his comments because he accused me of supporting the siege of Gaza. It was shergald who asked (perhaps rhetorically) if he was a troll. To which I replied with an ambiguous "if the shoe fits..."

I stand by my calling astroturf, though. Incessant posting of un- or mis-attributed third-party content, without appropriate markup and to several different sites (the deleted diary appeared at Booman, OpenLeft and here, in completely identical versions, with the same erroneous attribution and with no notification whatsoever in any of those places that they were being crossposted) and insisting on putting them in the place where they will get the highest possible profile to casual visitors, rather than where they will fit into the way the community works, are all indicators of a person who is using the site, as opposed to contributing to it.

Astroturf is as astroturf does.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 08:12:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No you did call me a troll, but it was Oui that you troll-rated. I really hope that Oui comes back to ET.

But we agree that we have not seen this kind of behavior, diary police actions, slamming diarists, diary hijacking, and the like, since we were both on Daily Kos. There it was principally unleashed by groups of right wing Zionists (which is how I referred to them), GIYUS operatives and the like. But it was interesting nonetheless. Only it was unexpected if pretty low-brow and anti-intellectual from otherwise smart people. That's right, isn't it?

by shergald on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 09:35:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What happened here is that myself and a couple of the current and former frontpagers of this community finally got fed up with your persistent violations of several items of the user guidelines and your unconstructive and disruptive attitude and called you on them. You then provided thirty-odd examples of unconstructive and disruptive attitude, before finally disappearing the whole sordid story down the memory hole.

You call that "diary policing." Most other people around here call it "quality control," an application of which was long overdue in this case.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 10:35:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
" a couple of the current and former frontpagers of this community finally got fed up with your persistent violations of several items of the user guidelines and your unconstructive and disruptive attitude and called you on them."

You and/or Migeru, the two of you who hijacked my diary, will really have to document for me and everyone else, these two points because quite frankly, I do now believe you are just full of crap, a liar. So point to the diaries and comments that you say conformed to these points, that made the both of you decide to trash me and my diary for over two hours, and have continued to do so on this tread, an incredibly stupid thing to do.

by shergald on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 10:53:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You've got a lot of chutzpah calling for documentation from other people after flinging around baseless accusations all day and never providing a single scrap of evidence (nevermind having the common courtesy to actually provide a link to the diary you critiqued at one point). But as it happens, I did collect a couple of examples earlier. Not all of them are yours, and there are plenty more of yours that would qualify.

In point of fact, I'd like you to pick any one of your diaries, and we can match it against any one of mine, Migeru's, Colman's, afew's, Jerome's or Crazy Horse's.

I'm betting € to Zim$ that you're gonna come up short in that comparison.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 11:06:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
since you deleted it, but I have no qualms whatsoever stating that I believe - and fully support - JakeS and Migeru's description of what happened, because it is consistent with their behavior, fundamentally based on requesting evidence and sources for assertions and questioning all assumptions.

Wind power
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 03:49:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
i may not be an unbiased party, but i did read the thread completely, in fact right up to the moment it was deleted (i had just commented for the first time.)

i was almost offended by shergald's lack of understanding, or willingness to accept another's views.  that's enough from me.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 04:03:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"What happened here is that myself and a couple of the current and former frontpagers of this community finally got fed up with your persistent violations of several items of the user guidelines and your unconstructive and disruptive attitude and called you on them. You then provided thirty-odd examples of unconstructive and disruptive attitude, before finally disappearing the whole sordid story down the memory hole.

You call that "diary policing." Most other people around here call it "quality control," an application of which was long overdue in this case."

- Jake

The persistent violations of several items of the user guidelines and unconstructive and disruptive attitude, were said to have prompted the attack. I asked for documentation from past diaries and comments, and none was forthcoming, precisely because nothing like this can be substantiated. So I disagree with them and believe it was a trumped up charge.

by shergald on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 09:35:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Dude. I linked to a comment containing three examples from you. You know what a link is, right? It's that blue highlighted text that you can click on.

Then I went AFK, and you flamed out and went into a tailspin with three or four increasingly incoherent and insulting screeds, which the frontpagers mercifully decided to hide from view. Presumably to protect what little good repute you have left.

But let's take it once again for heritor-prince Knud: Improper use of third-party content, undeclared crossposting and conspiracy theory peddling.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 10:26:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So you hid the comments that challenged to you to provide documentation of accusations you made, which were entirely false.

You also hid the comment in which I reminded you that two years ago you complained to Jerome about IP diaries on the site. As as far as I can tell, you have put together, as you admitted, a group of frontpagers, two anyway, that decided to hijack my diary, engage in ad hominum attacks, insults (troll, Oui a pompous prick), and false assertions, like those above.

Your obvious agenda is to get IP off the frontpage. I can only suspect your motives, but we shall see if you succeed.

by shergald on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 01:07:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
JakeS can't hide comments. That was afew. Try and keep your _dramatise personae _ straight.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 01:15:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
[ET Moderation Technology™]

I hid your comments in this thread. JakeS has no means of doing so (or hiding any other comments), he is not a member of the editorial team.

The accusation that there is an agenda to get Israel-Palestine off the front page is totally baseless. You were invited before to look at another diary on the subject by the stormy present, it's not just about the ships, to see what JakeS has to say there. I suggest you do so.

This discussion must end here. Any further rancorous comments -- on either side -- will be simply deleted.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 01:15:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is not rancorous. But JakeS has never once commented on any of my diaries, so I don't think I would care to attend to his at this point.

And it was Jake who kept suggesting that my diaries should go into the Salon, or be represented by a newspaper headline with link.

I also did ask you and Migeru to substantiate the false charges Jake made. He won't; he can't.

by shergald on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 01:27:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
shergald:
I don't think I would care to attend to his

Not his diary, the stormy present's. But if you don't want to see, keep your eyes shut.

Now let's end this.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 01:37:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
[ET Moderation Technology™]

Comment by JakeS deleted.

End of discussion.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 01:40:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
[ET Moderation Technology™]

A further comment by shergald was deleted too. Any further attempt to prolong this discussion will result in comments on this thread being closed.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 04:31:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
IP is not about what people on blogs think, but rather the drama that continues to unfold in this historical conflict between two peoples. I get the idea that, well since everyone agrees on two states, here at least, the problem over. What ET members think or agree upon will have nil effect on the direction this conflict takes.

In fact, everyone is for two-states, except the most extremist religious minority of nuts living in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Even Netanyahu claims he is now for two states. That's not the point. The point is that he is really NOT for two states, at least not for a solution that leads to a continguous, independent and sovereign Palestinian nation with its own borders on 22% of historical Palestine.

Israeli settlements now control about 60% of the West Bank, and by proclimation they will not be removed, a unified expanded Jerusalem negates a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem, the Jordan Valley will never be relinquished, and Israel demands control of the Jordanian border, actually a several mile strip of land along the border.

That is the latest Likud vision, and it equates to an Apartheid, Israel-surrounded group of bantustans in the West Bank to be called Palestine. So it is not as easy to say, we all agree to this or that, goodbye. It's over.

by shergald on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 07:37:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That whooshing sound you just heard was the sound of a point sailing way over your head.

(Here's a hint: Preaching to the choir gets tiresome for the choir after a while.)

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 08:17:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So it seems.

But meta-criticism is just a front for censoring I/P discussions, y'know.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 03:33:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm going on the record as being in favor of internet/protocol discussions.

Oh wait.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 03:53:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL

That was my first association as well.  Which didn't make sense.  Then Intellectual Property popped outta the old brain.  THAT didn't make sense either.  The third time 'round: I got the reference.

Yeah Me.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:11:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...and believe me, you don't want to get me started on the merits of IPv6 over IPv4.
by Bernard on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 09:34:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
interesting how he/she did it? I don't see any "edit" button in my diaries for quite some time (at least since my diary on Kathmandu when I wanted to add some pictures). Was I blacklisted here?
by FarEasterner on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 03:59:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Umm, I think there comes a point (one month ?) where it's archived in a non-edit mode

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:08:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
no, it was not there. Probably moderators disabled my edit function for some purpose.
by FarEasterner on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:14:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is no "blacklisting" here.

But, to avoid deletion of diaries and comments when people leave in anger, site editors systematically remove those posters' editing permission. This is not an accusation against that person, it's a simple precaution. As you left at one time in somewhat emotional circumstances, the same precaution was no doubt taken. I'll check.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:21:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes. I've restored your editing permission now. Sorry that was forgotten after you came back.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:27:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I also have never seen an editing feature. I've wished it often for theose wonderful typios.

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:31:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I assure you that you have editing permission.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:57:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not for comments. I too would love to be able to correct typos or add the words and phrases I left out in my rush to post.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 05:07:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah! That's it indeed. I can edit a diary, just not a comment. I thought we were talking about comments, and obviously I was mistaken. Sorry.

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 05:57:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Comments and polls cannot be edited and, I think, rightly.  Granted it's a pain when one wishes to correct the obvious typo -- in my case almost always 2 milliseconds after hitting the "Post" button.  ;-)  The alternative is having creating a ruckus a jerk could go back, change their jerkitude, and then "innocently" ask what all the fuss is about.

Wordpress, IIRC, has an comment Edit feature on a five minute timer, after that the comment is locked.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 06:15:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is not an accusation against that person, it's a simple precaution.

Adopted after one case where a trusted user deleted maybe half a dozen diaries before they could be stopped.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 05:33:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The new iPhone 4.0 has been introduced today, for delivery on 24 June.

The video and text is full of nuanced hurt for the eyes. Aluminum and glass technology that seems obviously cool now that they mention it, 325ppi to make the letters and pictures sharp, 720p video and 5Meg pictures, both with led light, video while talking, multitasking, and a few other interesting tech things...worth a watch at the apple.com site.

Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:23:32 PM EST
And iMovie.

If someone had, hypothetically, spent the last year and $n,000 developing a pocket video app, I suspect they could be somewhat pissed.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:41:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Alas. Always a potential problem.

Usually there will be surprising parts missing from the OS version, which serves as a launch point for someone to take advantage of the lack.


Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 06:01:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It could be worse: iMovie is going to be a $4.99 download, so at least it's possible to compete with them. The cases where they just add stuff to the OS are much more annoying.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 06:42:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought feature-length was already available for iPod and iPhone. Do plan on watching many feature-length films on an iPhone screen?

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 09:30:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
iMovie is for editing your own movies.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 05:59:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Isnt this the sort of activity that ended up with Microsoft getting kicked round the courts for several years?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 07:18:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That was then.

Apple now does hardware, music, video, books, advertising and software, and is trying to lock down a proprietary web technology.

Apart from that - not particularly.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 07:21:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Proprietary web technology?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 05:48:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And has what, a 25% market share at most in any of those areas.

Unlike MS's 98% share in the past or whatever the hell it was.

What Apple does have is about a 100% share of the media's attention.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 05:57:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I doubt MS ever had more than 25% of the PC software market either.

It had nearly 100% of the PC OS market, which is rather different, and also engaged in restrictive anticompetitive practices against smaller competitors in sub-elements of that market.

Apple vs Flash, Apple vs Developers Who Do Things Apple Doesn't Like, Apple vs existing mobile ad platforms and Apple vs Alternatives to the App Store (which aren't allowed to exist), isn't the same thing at all.

Clearly.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 07:34:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Office applications + OS were pretty comprehensive - and making money outside of the MS ecosystem was pretty difficult. If you don't like Apple you can make your money elsewhere. If Flash is so important, buy a phone or tablet that has it: there are lots.  Well, there aren't, but that's because Apple's argument about flash is clearly wrong. Don't like their developer rules? Develop for other platforms - again, lots of space out there.

MS nearly became a complete monoculture, with the odd weirdo and university holding out on free unices or Macs. I don't see that with Apple, not for quite  a long time, and I live in a world of their devices. The two situations don't look equivalent from here.

Apple are a big corporation. They're not nice. Neither are any of their competitors. You don't like it? Stop supporting them.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 08:37:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wasn't gone on the design until I saw the video in action. Looks as if it might be quite nice now. Nothing all that compelling to drive an early upgrade for a 3GS user though, unless nose-hair chat is something that's important to you. I swear, when they invent anti-gravity, it'll be so that we can float our gadgets in appropriate places for movie watching and video calls ...
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 06:44:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, it does have a gyroscope.

But I'd guess this doesn't mean you can perch it on a pencil and it won't fall off.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 07:16:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The gyroscope struck me as an odd add-on, but I suspect it could be quite useful for gaming.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 04:30:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The 'gyroscope' + accelerometer gives you 6 axis info that will be useful for gaming. But it could also enable other interesting creative tools. For instance the combining of video with orientation information would allow a reconstruction of camera motion in space in a 3D modelling environment.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 06:22:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it was a 'Hey, it's cheap, let's put it in' decision.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 07:37:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's what they said about ringtones ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 08:02:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As a direct challenge to Nintendo and their fancy Wii controller add-on that I suddenly forget the name of. I reached the point where the idea of a DS as a casual gaming machine became silly some time ago - the iPhone is always there and adequate for the job. New input stuff will help with that and, as Sven says, open up other possibilities.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 08:26:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As Colman said, probably not worth the upgrade for a 3GS user, but it looks like a pretty good jump from the 3G that I'm on.

My wish list was for a redesign, A4 processor (still curious to know the speed on that), better battery life, and 32/64GB storage.  A 4G radio would've been nice, but it wouldn't have made much sense since, with the exception of Sprint, the carriers here won't really have the 4G networks up until next year.

They hit most of them.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 04:42:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Calvinball Astrology
You are a basilisk, born in the year of blown. Your element is lemon, and your season is mine. Your ruling planet, mitten, is good for nothing right now because sparkle is sneaking off with beast.


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:28:44 PM EST
Totally feeling that right now.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 04:39:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC - Adam Curtis Blog

Here is a strange echo from history.

It is a documentary made by the BBC in 1973 about the story of the ship, the Exodus.

It was the ship full of Jewish refugees - many of them survivors of the Holocaust - that tried to break the British blockade of Palestine in 1947. The participants from both sides appear and describe in detail how British soldiers boarded the ship 21 miles off the coast of Palestine killing 3 of the refugees and wounding others.

It caused an international scandal and was a PR disaster for the British government. It is seen in Israel today as one of the most significant events that led to the founding of the modern Israeli state.

The shock was compounded when the British took most of the refugees back to Germany and put them on trains and sent them to internment camps.



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 07:17:17 PM EST
thanks for posting that, ceebs.

i was going to post the link in the i/p subthread, but i'm glad i waited to read till here.

watching that video was extremely enlightening, and served as a more-than-adequate reminder of why israeli policies are the way they are now.

curtis rocks...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Jun 7th, 2010 at 07:38:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
[ET Moderation Technology™]

Several of shergald's comments in this thread have been editorialized, ie, made invisible to all but trusted users. The insults and shouting have gone far enough.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 02:03:46 AM EST
Sad but understandable.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 06:02:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
L.A. Times
The security firm formerly known as Blackwater is looking for new ownership.

The North Carolina-based company now called Xe Services announced its decision to pursue the sale in a brief statement Monday.

Russian? China? Iran? Anyone interested?
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 at 05:10:59 AM EST


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