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Israel vs Arabs doing 'it' with Jews

by fairleft Wed Jul 21st, 2010 at 01:03:29 PM EST

I was gonna write a brief 'good news' summer diary today (hey hey, 'California city approves marijuana farming'), but then had to click on Lenin's Tomb and that was out. I didn't know that Israeli law considers it rape if an Arab Israeli man has consensual sex with a Jewish Israeli female (if he does not say that he is Arab). File this under "it's not your grandparents' Israel anymore." Here's lenin's take (links in original):

Racist patriarchy in Israel  posted by lenin

This is an example of racist patriarchy. A man, Sabbar Kashur, has been imprisoned for doing nothing more than having consensual sex with a woman, whose name has not been disclosed. Both parties were of age, and no one alleges that the transaction took place without consent. . . . as the woman's testimony in the course of the trial made clear, the only crime that Kashur, now convicted of rape, committed was to have allowed the woman to believe that he was Jewish, when in fact he was an Arab. He did not even actively perpetrate a deceit, merely chatted the woman up and didn't say "by the way, I am an Arab". And that has earned him 18 months in prison, on the basis of a plea bargain. Judge Tzvi Segal explained:

"The court is obliged to protect the public interest from sophisticated, smooth-tongued criminals who can deceive innocent victims at an unbearable price - the sanctity of their bodies and souls."

Are you getting it yet? Sex with an Arab constitutes a violation of the sanctity of body and soul - an "unbearable price". This is not a freakish opinion in Israeli society. For example, half of Israeli Jews believe intermarriage between Arabs and Jews is equivalent to national treason . . . Gangs of men in a Jerusalem neighbourhood roam around, behaving as a de facto vice and virtue squad, to 'protect' young Jewish girls from Arabs. One local authority has set up a squad of counsellors and psychiatrists to 'rescue' Jewish girls who are dating Arabs. . . .


So Kashur is accused of 'impersonating a Jew,' but apparently his real crime was not emphatically saying "Hey, before this goes too far, you do know I'm an Arab, right?!" (emphasis added):

Kashur, married and the father of two small children, has been under house arrest for almost two years since the incident occured.

According to Kashur, he was exiting a grocery store in downtown Jerusalem around midday when a woman in her late 20s began to talk to him. "I would say she set upon me. She was interested in my motorcycle and so we talked. I didn't pretend. I said my name is Dudu because that's how everybody knows me. My wife even calls me that."

Kashur said the verdict is racist.

"For two years I've been under house arrest for nothing," he said. "If I were Jewish they wouldn't have even questioned me. That's not called rape. I didn't rape her in the forest and throw her away naked. She agreed to everything that happened."

Gideon Levy agrees with Kashur:

Gideon Levy, a liberal Israeli commentator, was quoted as saying: "I would like to raise only one question with the judge. What if this guy had been a Jew who pretended to be a Muslim and had sex with a Muslim woman?

"Would he have been convicted of rape? The answer is: of course not."

Or maybe Israeli law now is that it was illegal for Kashur not to accurately mind-read what the young Jewish woman was thinking:

High Court Justice Elyakim Rubinstein said a conviction of rape should be imposed any time a "person does not tell the truth regarding critical matters to a reasonable woman, and as a result of misrepresentation she has sexual relations with him."

Rubinstein said the question was also whether an ordinary person would expect such a woman to have sex with a man without the false identity he created.

Oh well, it's a deeply illiberal Israel the West must deal with now. Does it remind anyone else of apartheid South Africa?

Display:
Does it remind anyone else of apartheid South Africa?

Not this particular example. You can usually tell immediately if someone is black....

by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Wed Jul 21st, 2010 at 01:21:04 PM EST
The apartheid system had to deal with much more nuanced 'challenges' than 100% black v 100% white. Racist and 'religious' laws always break down, for rational people, in fits of "can't help laughing even though I know I should be crying."

fairleft
by fairleft (fairleftatyahoodotcom) on Wed Jul 21st, 2010 at 01:35:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not in South Africa. The race question was anything but obvious a lot of the time when it came to a significant % of mixed people. It still pertained, but it just wasn't as obvious.
by Upstate NY on Wed Jul 21st, 2010 at 04:42:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You should learn more about Jim Crow in the southern US before 1964.

This Arab guy got two years of house arrest. In the south, even consenting adults who are white and Black would be lynched, at least if the man were Black.

by shergald on Wed Jul 21st, 2010 at 08:56:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
;->

n/t

fairleft

by fairleft (fairleftatyahoodotcom) on Wed Jul 21st, 2010 at 02:12:38 PM EST
Well the big question is about the nature of Informed consent, It can be argued that seeing as  he intentionally misrepresented himself, then in effect he put the woman in a position where she was unable to make an informed choice, and so could not properly consent. Thus it is reasonable to charge him.

, a liberal Israeli commentator, was quoted as saying: "I would like to raise only one question with the judge. What if this guy had been a Jew who pretended to be a Muslim and had sex with a Muslim woman?

"Would he have been convicted of rape? The answer is: of course not."

Well we could look at this and say that seeing as this has been appealed to this level of court this case is a victory for womens rights, and in Future that situation will also be covered as the precedent has been set.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Jul 21st, 2010 at 03:45:49 PM EST
I'm not understanding what your point is. Are you saying that for every fling, nationality or ethnicity is relevant?

In the case of married people, there are laws against adultery. But I know of no other instance where one is required to reveal their identity prior to having sex.

This current situation is also not something steeped in Jewish culture. I've been reading lots of pre-WW2 history books lately with chapters devoted to Jewish/Christian relations. One example: Mark Mazower's Salonika describes outstanding relations between Christian, Jewish and Muslim clerics. They did try to keep each to their own flock, but there were all sorts of open discussions about mixed relationships. The sort of thing that happened here would NOT have been punishable in a Jewish-dominated area of Salonika 100 years ago. Well, maybe the man would have been punished for adultery.

by Upstate NY on Wed Jul 21st, 2010 at 04:46:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's absurd. Should I be seen as guilty of rape if I claim I am 20 (I am 24) or that I wear blue contacts (my eyes are blue)?

Or it's even worse, should I be seen as guilty of rape because I don't inform the woman in question that I am 24 or have blue eyes, as she might think I am older and younger than that or that I'm wearing blue contacts? Maybe I should tell the poor woman I'm Swedish, as she might think I'm Norwegian?

Gah. Absurd.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Wed Jul 21st, 2010 at 04:49:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Israeli press is speculating that if you tell the woman that you love her, and you really don't, you could be found guilty of rape.

The court did rely on a non-racist precedent where the defendant was found guilty of rape, after pretending to work for the government and offering her help which he was not in a position to provide. To the best of my knowledge, the woman was not charged with intent to defraud the government.

by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Wed Jul 21st, 2010 at 04:55:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Israeli press is speculating that if you tell the woman that you love her, and you really don't, you could be found guilty of rape.

You've just convicted hundreds of millions of men for rape there... And women too, I suppose. Seriously, you can't legislate away people's right to be stupid or impulsive. These people are adults, seriously. That means you are responsible for your own actions and can't go whining to the state whenever you regret some stupid shit you've been up to, and demand that your co-couchers should be locked up.

Further, how are you supposed to prove, in a court of law, that somebody loves someone else during a certain period of time? What's even the judicial definition of love? A preposterous can of worms moving in the direction of Tel Aviv...

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Wed Jul 21st, 2010 at 05:02:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Absurd or not, I foresee a future in which hopeful males will be obliged to present a biometric passport with full details as to ethnicity, social class, assets, income, etc, in short, all the things that really mattered in the choice of sexual partners until the mid-twentieth century came along and turned humanity into a rabbit warren.

</deadly serious>

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jul 21st, 2010 at 05:01:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Cue in Gattaca...

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 at 03:28:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
All that will be required on Facebook pages of the future.

fairleft
by fairleft (fairleftatyahoodotcom) on Fri Jul 23rd, 2010 at 08:47:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't see this in the facts of the case:

"seeing as he intentionally misrepresented himself"

The court ruled differently, that, as an Arab, he had an affirmative duty to tell the Jewish girl that he was Arab, since (according to the Israeli Supreme Court) apparently 'a reasonable young Jewish female' must be assumed to (be a racist and therefore) care a great deal that the ethnicity of her casual sex partner is Jewish.

fairleft

by fairleft (fairleftatyahoodotcom) on Wed Jul 21st, 2010 at 07:14:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
he intentionally misrepresented himself, then in effect he put the woman in a position where she was unable to make an informed choice, and so could not properly consent. Thus it is reasonable to charge him.

???
From which planet you are? From planet called BBC?

by FarEasterner on Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 at 11:19:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Trying very hard not to mention Godwin...

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Wed Jul 21st, 2010 at 04:44:55 PM EST
Why, is he an Arab?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Jul 21st, 2010 at 05:03:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, but certain other Godwin-related people had laws that regulated whom Jews could legally have sex with...

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Wed Jul 21st, 2010 at 05:05:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well let's face it: most Jews are laughing at this court decision just as everyone else.

The court decision is just another symptom of what is wrong with Israel these days, as it merely reflects the scourge of ethnocentricism gone awry.

by shergald on Wed Jul 21st, 2010 at 09:00:52 PM EST
A call for state-sanctioned religious tolerance
The arrest of Anat Hoffman for carrying a Torah scroll publicly at the Western Wall last week as she participated in the Rosh Hodesh prayers held monthly by "Women of the Wall" as well as the proposed Rotem conversion bill that would have granted a Haredi Chief Rabbinate exclusive oversight over all conversion matters had left hundreds of thousands of Jews with feelings of sorrow and anger. These acts were tantamount to a declaration of war by zealots in governmentally sanctioned positions of power against liberal religious Jews in particular and Diaspora Jewry in general.
Here's another example of Israel going insane...

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 at 04:29:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And here is the Bank of Israel head saying something similar, in more measured language.
If 70% of the men in 10% of the population don't work, it becomes a problem of macroeconomic magnitude, Fischer said. The Haredim as a group are growing faster than the rest of the population. Moreover, he said, that speaking with figures in the Haredi community, it is apparent they do not grasp the problem.

The situation is unsustainable, Fischer warned: 60% of Haredim live in poverty and the proportion is rising. "We can't have an ever-increasing proportion of the population continuing to not go to work," Fischer said.

by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 at 04:34:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was about to say that the way women are treated in Western religions has a long way to go, be it Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. But then I wondered about how Eastern religions were doing in this regard. I can't recall seeing women participating in rituals inside of Buddhist temples or monastaries, as one example. Like Catholics, they seem to provide nunneries for women, which act like second rate opportunities to a subservient existence.

It is all rather primitive. Speaking about the Western religions, do they have separate but equal accommodations in Heaven too?

by shergald on Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 at 09:23:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Here's more evidence of insane orthodox Jews in Israel.

gk:

in Israel, a woman was assaulted for having signs on her arms that she had prayed that morning.
Not that other religions are any better. But I think this in fact has little to do with religion except that religion absorbs and justifies the prevailing practices which happened to be ridiculously patriarchal everywhere (with the possible exception of long extinct Mother goddess religions) until recently.
The Iron Age with advanced technology of the chariot revolutionized warfare and brought a series of invasions from the north, mainly by the Aryans who viewed themselves as superior to the indigenous populations they conquered. As the new civilization spread and became the new aristocracy, the conquerors imposed their own system of government and their own theocracy of monotheism.[3] During this time, there was a transition from a tribal and clan-based society to a sovereign state form of government where de jure and de facto rights of individuals were replaced by sovereignty to the state and territorial integrity, which led to the emergence of the empire. Matriarchy went into decline as goddess temples were destroyed and sacred prostitution was officially shut down by the emperor Constantine in the fourth century AD when pantheism was replaced with Christianity.[4]


By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 at 10:16:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So what you are saying is this: it is not about getting laid, but the conditions under which that occurs, which went from female rape to male rape in the 4th century.

I'm learning quite a bit about sexual history on this site. Thanks.

by shergald on Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 at 12:57:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
a series of invasions from the north, mainly by the Aryans who viewed themselves as superior to the indigenous populations they conquered. As the new civilization spread and became the new aristocracy, the conquerors imposed their own system of government and their own theocracy of monotheism.

The problem with this is that it's not clear that the Aryans were monotheistic - Indoeuropeans were mostly polytheistic.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 at 01:52:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That story about the young woman being assaulted for some religious offense is so sad. People just looking away as the man was holding onto her arm and kicking her, that's a sign of fear and disillusionment, a bad sign for Israel's future.

And then there's the government, looking away too.

fairleft

by fairleft (fairleftatyahoodotcom) on Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 at 04:01:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It;s interesting you mentioned the position of women in Eastern religions.

I can say Eastern religions are divided into two-three big groups - on one side it's Hinduism vs Buddhism/Confucianism. It's common knowledge that women in the former are treated badly while females in Buddhist countries have higher social position.

OK, then what about Sri Lanka, Theravada Buddhist country where women have no better position than in India.

Then some Hindu societies have had matrilineal descent (with high position of women) like Keralans in South India.

Buddhist countries are also different, some have patriarchial conservative society, in others women occupy more important social roles.

Therefore no common pattern for Eastern religions in this regard.

The one thing which is quite different from semitic religions (Islam, Christianity, Judaism) is more casual attitude towards sex (read Thailand which was easy going country since times immemorial) and lack of conditioned by religion sex taboos. That does not mean that Eastern socities lack sex taboos, i.e. if they exist they were not determined and sanctified by religion.

by FarEasterner on Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 at 11:34:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have a suspicion that a lot of the sexual weirdness in the Abrahamic   religion is to do with originating in cultures that have most of  the men off herding or whatever and leaving the women behind in villages for long periods. I haven't done the research to check that though. Most of the eastern religions seem more urbanised, with different concerns.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 at 01:05:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, I'm talking nonsense there - long, complicated day.

<sigh>

What I meant to associate with the herding/settled cultures was the restrictions on women especially.

The (mostly) specifically Christian craziness about sex comes largely from that fucking looney Augustine, amplified by the political convenience of his beliefs at a pivotal time in history.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 at 01:15:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have superficial knowledge of Western philosophy including Augustine from university textbooks which were written by Italian scholars. I suspect they omitted most important parts of padres teachings which had profound effect on Western civilization. I have no doubt Italian professors were Christians, i.e. already conditioned by their religion on what they can say and what can't. But probably you're right - semitic religions appeared amidst sheepherders and reflected their mundane concerns, while Buddha, Confucius and others preached in urbanized sophisticated societies.
by FarEasterner on Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 at 01:33:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not really. What did those women do while the men were away for long periods?

Cheap Dildoes

The common question is what cheap dildoe to get. We are pulled in so many directions when looking for a cheap dildoe with the amount of products there are available on the internet. Dildos are not a new product by any means and has been evolving over time. Which means that we have got legacy products new products and extreme products. They come in various shapes, colors and sizes. The industry has become so competitive that the pricing is extremely low on some of these dildoes.

So what cheap dildoe do you buy? Do you go really cheap or search for something that is cheap but not extremely cheap. Do you want a dildoe that has no machine in it. What about suction cups. These offer a different dimension to using your dildoe. You can stick the cup to a table and work it as if you where having sex or to the wall for some doggie style action. Dildoes come with handles, this allows for ease of use and allows you to get to your dildoe from the front, back and side. Each time you add an extra function to your cheap dildo search, you will increase the price. Try and stay away from dildoes with machine or vibrators if you are going for a cheap dildoe option.

no link

I don't want to get into it, but I read something somewhere that even among married couples, masterbation prevails. Homo sapiens did not survive for small reasons.

by shergald on Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 at 03:29:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I once brought up the Kama Sutra with Indian and Pakistani male friends. They recoiled at the idea that sex mores were more loose in India than in the US, just on account of this old sex manual. Just the opposite. As for Buddhism, I hope that I didn't suggest anything more than a generalized pattern regarding the place of women.

My impression is that along with all other worldly pleasures, Sidharta Guatama, relinquished sex in his quest for enlightenment. But doesn't horniness interfere with the path to enlightenment. I learned later that Japanese men who set out on the quest for enlightenment via Zen, do so in later life after they have gotten over their lusts, if that ever happens.


by shergald on Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 at 01:06:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
such impression exist only on surface and also because of 2 centuries of British Raj with weird puritanic laws like outlawing homosexuality. These laws were gladly accepted by neo-Hindus like Mahatma Gandhi and ushered in a dose of Western hypocrisy regarding sex into Indian society. Your friends seem to accept such superficial impression (or were not sincere). In fact sexual activities and even sexual deviations are received in Eastern societies easily without much ado like in the West.

As for Eastern religions and Gautama's austerity - main difference is that Eastern religions are not totalitarian by definition and very individualistic, not interfering into private life of laymen. While semitic religions historically tried to dominate not only social life, exterminating all possible rivals but also regulating private life of its followers and even private life of followers of other religions.

by FarEasterner on Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 at 01:17:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Mahatma Gandhi, of course, condoned drinking one's own urine. It made me wonder if there could be a greater expression of homoeroticism than that, masturbation notwithstanding. On the other hand, you are right in suggesting that the West is hypocritical about expressions of lust.

by shergald on Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 at 04:17:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Mahatma Gandhi, of course, condoned drinking one's own urine.



By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 at 04:50:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Try Google if you don't have the knowledge:

In the old testament of the King James version of the Bible it says in Proverbs 5:15, "Drink waters out of thine own cistern, and running waters out of thine own well". The New testament in John 7:38 Jesus said,"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."

Are these just words? Do these words have some other meaning? Perhaps, but I think that in part or in whole these are instructions to drink urine, the living, whole food source and energized, structured water, called in lay person words, urine; and called in medical terms,"plasma ultra filtrate".

In the Hindu and Yoga traditions to drink pee is known as,"auspicious water of Lord Shiva". Auspicious means: [strongly indicating a successful result]. Amaroli text from over 5000 years old give exact methods of the internal and external uses and how to drink your own urine.

These are said to be the oldest written medical texts found in human history. Yogi practitioners do daily stretching, meditation and drink urine as part of their physical and spiritual pursuits for health. These are often among the longest living people of the world. Often a yogi can do amazing physical feats even in their 70`s. 80`s and 90`s.

The Prime Minister of India during the 1970`s, Morarji Desai, later was asked on an interview by the American News broadcast 60 minutes how at the age of 99 was he in such good health with such youthful skin. He said on that televised interview that it was because he drank 1/2 a liter of his own urine everyday. He said that to drink urine was the answer to today`s ills.

Okay, Gandhi is coming up. I just can't quote any more than I have. On the other hand, if you want to experiment, I'd go ahead.

by shergald on Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 at 05:15:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You should link to what you quote. For instance the page about cheap dildos. Classy, that one.

I'm trying to figure out whether you're trolling here or just being obnoxious.

Here's some googling. With the internet one never knows whether it's true or not, but hey...

Saja Forum: DESI SPOTTING: STEPHEN COLBERT ON MAHATMA GANDHI AT PRINCETON AND TV

According to an article on the Internet (so it must be true): "In 1978 Dan Rather, on CBS's 60 Minutes, interviewed Desai, who spoke at length about the great value of drinking urine. Newsweek reported (August 21, 1995) that Mohandas Gandhi was a urine drinker, but this was later denied by India's Gandhi Institute."

UPDATE: I turned to one of the foremost experts on Gandhi, Prof. Dennis Dalton of Barnard College. His response: "Sushila Nayyar, Gandhi's personal physician, told me that Gandhi did not believe in this practice, though Moraji definitely did. There is no reference in Gandhi's works to it. Arun Gandhi at the Gandhi Institute denied it and Arun is a sound authority on Gandhi."

True? False? On topic? I do think you're actually trolling.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 at 05:23:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Please stop mindreading for Shergald's motive and then finding a bad one.

But thanks for clearing up his possible misunderstanding. He seemed simply to be spouting 'common knowledge' relevant to the discussion and, maybe (I don't actually know, of course), didn't know it had been semi-debunked.

And not that there's anything wrong with drinking your own urine!

fairleft

by fairleft (fairleftatyahoodotcom) on Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 at 05:56:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem here, Fairleft, is humor or lack of it, mostly the latter. Got any idea what these Europeans are all about? Maybe it has to do with not being subjected to American politics enough.

by shergald on Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 at 07:51:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's summertime and 'meta' looms large, cuz not much is really happening. And, like you said, that leads to fewer diaries and 'Shergald' and 'fairleft' taking up 'too much space'. There's no reasonable solution for that problem, so unreasonable ones are being attempted.

Heck, let's have the Europeans get on with it and contribute more diaries here! There's lots of weird and interesting stuff happening in Europe, maybe I'll try to write on one or two of those things. For example, I'm getting curious about Hizb ut-Tahrir, an organization with strange, paranoid beliefs and the mirror paranoia that's grown up around them, especially in Britain.

But as I say, it's summer and I may not get around to it any time soon.

fairleft

by fairleft (fairleftatyahoodotcom) on Fri Jul 23rd, 2010 at 11:33:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, you know these European. They all have to take enforced vacations. It's part of their socialism. So I am a little jealous; aren't you?

But the troubling thing about them is that they keep complaining. The problem is they never had a European Madboy. 'What! me worry?' They just gon't get it.

by shergald on Fri Jul 23rd, 2010 at 01:05:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There seems to be a difference between restricting sex to being within marriage and being disgusted by sex. The second has been pretty common within christianity and I'm not aware of it being a strong thread in other religions - thus the surprise among christians when they see on-line Islamic ministers answering specific sexual questions in great detail.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 at 01:18:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know if it is because Viet Nam possibly had matrilineal societies before Chinese and Confucean influences, but my general impression of Confucianism is that it is strongly patriarchal (although there is probably a difference between what Confucius taught and applied Conficianism).

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères
by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 at 02:04:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
now it's hard to believe but in Indochina historically there was lack of population. Medieval states fiercely competed not for territory but for population. That;s why generally position of women there is higher despite existence of large families/clans with several generations. I.e. centuries of Chinese domination in Viet Nam could not change underlying tendencies in local societies which were caused by necessity to survive.
 
by FarEasterner on Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 at 02:22:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I remember reading about an interesting (Texas) case once where two couples shared a bedroom during  the "great depression."  One night the two ladies were asleep, each in their respective beds and both husbands were away. One of the husbands returned some time during the night and proceeded to get into the "wrong" bed. He then had intercourse with the woman apparently without the two ever facing each other. She reportedly asked at one point "is that you Roger" and the man just grunted in response. About that time, the other woman awoke and said something to the effect "Jim why are you treating me this way?" Eventually, the truth of the encounter was revealed and the man was arrested and charged with rape.

The courts ruled that it was not rape because the man never told the woman he was her husband. Had he done so he would have been guilty of rape by fraud.  Interestingly, a quick googling on the subject matter revealed some persuasive legal precedent for at least some of the rationale behind the argument.

Fraud, along with force and coercion, is one of the three principal means by which a person can commit rape. Obtaining intercourse through fraud, just as through force and coercion, constitutes rape because it vitiates
the consent of the victim.

From reference:

("[R]ape has traditionally included not only intercourse by force or threat, but also sexual imposition on an unconscious or otherwise incapacitated female, intimacy achieved by certain fundamental kinds of deception, and intercourse with a mentally incompetent or underage female."); Joel Feinberg, Victims' Excuses: The Case of Fraudulently Procured Consent, 96 ETHICS 330, 333 (1986) (noting that "rape can be committed by fraud as well as by violence or coercion").

See, e.g., People v. Crosswell, 13 Mich. 427, 437 (1865) (upholding defendant's conviction for
rape by fraud and explaining that "[t]he outrage upon the woman . . . is just as great in these cases as if
actual force had been employed; . . . the act can[not] be . . . any less against the will of the woman when
her consent is obtained by fraud, than when it is extorted by threats or force"); SISSELA BOK, LYING:>MORAL CHOICE IN PUBLIC AND PRIVATE LIFE 18 (1978) (observing that deception, as well as force, can
be coercive); Chamallas, supra note 7, at 814 (noting the view that "consent is not considered freely
given if secured through physical force, economic pressure, or deception").
14 See, e.g., PETER WESTEN, THE LOGIC OF CONSENT: THE DIVERSITY AND DECEPTIVENESS OF CONSENT AS A DEFENSE TO CRIMINAL CONDUCT 188 (2004) ("Wrongful force and fraud . . . both operate to undermine . . . consent, but they do so in distinct ways."); Joseph H. Beale, Jr., Consent in the Criminal Law, 8 HARV. L. REV. 317, 321 (1895) ("A seeming consent extorted by force or terror differs from consent obtained by fraud. In the latter case the mind is deceived into agreement; in the former,the body is forced to act without a real agreement of the mind.").


 

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears
by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Wed Jul 21st, 2010 at 09:36:13 PM EST
That's believable, that sex with an unconscious women who is unable to consent, is rape. But....the rest sounds kind of all made up. There is an assumption in these arguments about deception that somehow, women don't like sex or don't have lusts that would lead them to go to bed with a man they just met.

It seems that the Arab man in this case turned a satisfied woman into a whore just because she would not have gone to bed with him had she known he wasn't Jewish. A whore is a whore, or to put it honestly, a woman in need is a woman in need.

Zorba the Greek: For a man not to go to a woman's bed when she calls him is a sin.

The problem here is that the woman must be seen as calling the man to her bed. It is better to be raped and not be seen as going to bed with an Arab man.

Two years under house arrest and now three years in prison for something less than rape. If the woman liked it, I think he should have gotten probation, minimally. Did the defense ever question her? I bet not. Appeal on the basis of ineffective counsel is in order.

Will this story come out as a movie?


by shergald on Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 at 03:09:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know anything about Israeli law and only slightly more about American.  I also have few hard facts about this case, but rape by fraud is not a made-up offense in the sense that it does exist via legislative fiat and judicial ruling in various US States. I would be careful about using the criteria of whether a "woman liked it" or not to justify lawful sex. That old dog doesn't hunt much at all these days.

See this report and lengthy discussion.

Quote there from:

Part II of this Article surveys current legislation and reveals a comprehensive battery of state criminal statutes prohibiting various forms of rape by fraud or rape by coercion. These statutes fall into five categories, those that: (1) punish criminal
actors who abuse positions of trust or (2) positions of authority to secure sexual compliance, (3) specifically outlaw the use of fraud or deception, (4) substitute coercion and other types of nonphysical pressures for the force requirement, and (5) prohibit
nonconsensual intercourse without reference to force, fraud, or coercion. The unitary concept of forcible rape has given birth to a host of offspring differing in substantive content and corresponding more closely to the varied behavior of sex offenders.

This version of the story you reference supposedly appeared in the Guardian and if factual would at least seem to fit the category of fraud though one could always argue that the woman should have been more careful in selecting a partner.

A Palestinian man has been convicted of rape after having consensual sex with a woman who had believed him to be a fellow Jew.

Sabbar Kashur, 30, was sentenced to 18 months in prison on Monday after the court ruled that he was guilty of rape by deception. According to the complaint filed by the woman with the Jerusalem district court, the two met in downtown Jerusalem in September 2008 where Kashur, an Arab from East Jerusalem, introduced himself as a Jewish bachelor seeking a serious relationship. The two then had consensual sex in a nearby building before Kashur left....

Handing down the verdict, Tzvi Segal, one of three judges on the case, acknowledged that sex had been consensual but said that although not "a classical rape by force," the woman would not have consented if she had not believed Kashur was Jewish.

The sex therefore was obtained under false pretences, the judges said. "If she hadn't thought the accused was a Jewish bachelor interested in a serious romantic relationship, she would not have cooperated," they added....




I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears
by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Thu Jul 22nd, 2010 at 10:29:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There may well be other important facts left out of these news stories; for example, maybe there were witnesses supporting one side's version of the story.

But based on the facts provided by the Guardian and Haaretz, there is no way to know whether her version of the story is true -- he pretended to be a Jewish bachelor, or whether his version of the story is true -- he didn't pretend to be anything in particular. The key to the decision, based on the stories we've read, is the racist 'reasonable Jewish Israeli female' rule, articulated by Supreme Court judge Rubinstein, 'whether an ordinary person would expect such a woman to have sex with a man without the false identity he created.' The present court sided with the female's version of the story and assumed that he must have created a false identity, because otherwise a 'reasonable Jewish Israeli female' would not have had sex with him.

fairleft

by fairleft (fairleftatyahoodotcom) on Fri Jul 23rd, 2010 at 11:21:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What's not appreciated by many commenters is the racist nature of this case. And that is precisely what the halaballoo is all about. There was even one reviewer who said, suppose this was a Palestinian woman who went to bed with a fake Arab, a Jewish man posing as an Arab. Would this case have gone to court at all?

by shergald on Fri Jul 23rd, 2010 at 01:18:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There was even one reviewer who said, suppose this was a Palestinian woman who went to bed with a fake Arab, a Jewish man posing as an Arab. Would this case have gone to court at all?

Well, based on what has been presented, we just don't know the answer to that question. Obviously there are those, like yourself, who believe it would never go to court in Israel. I don't disagree, I just don't have sufficient facts. I have no opinion about the case whatsoever though many, including myself, would agree that persons of Arab descent are generally getting a raw deal in Israel and in Israel occupied territories.

As far as rape by fraud goes, it stands to reason (this person's reason) that there should be different standards in trying such a case and with regard to punishments considered vs. those for forcible or violent rape, but much depends on the circumstances.

Rape is a complicated crime. It can be difficult to prove because often the only evidence is testimonial and relative to each party's state of mind.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Fri Jul 23rd, 2010 at 03:28:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not just Shergald; Gideon Levy, a pretty well know Israeli commentator, feels the same. As I've explained, what matters in the case is the more or less explicit racism of the 'reasonable Jewish Israeli female', which was established by the Israeli Supreme Court and is merely being expanded on in this case. The emerging legal rule is that reasonable Jewish females don't have sex with Arabs, so when they do, its reasonable (in a more and more officially racist Israel) to assume a rape by deception occurred. That is what happened in this case, unless there are important facts missing from the stories in the Guardian and Haaretz.

Gideon Levy, a liberal Israeli commentator, was quoted as saying: "I would like to raise only one question with the judge. What if this guy had been a Jew who pretended to be a Muslim and had sex with a Muslim woman?

"Would he have been convicted of rape? The answer is: of course not."



fairleft
by fairleft (fairleftatyahoodotcom) on Fri Jul 23rd, 2010 at 04:56:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And too many, like Gringo as one example, are not getting the gist of this case. A women opens her legs for one man but not another based on his ethnicity. I have to wonder how mixed couples in Israel feel about this court decision.

by shergald on Fri Jul 23rd, 2010 at 05:27:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I respect your position, and while I do see the obvious ethnic issues involved, just chose to look at the case from a purely legal standpoint, mostly American where we've had our share of ethnic divisiveness. Perhaps, as your article implies, the case can't be properly judged on that basis (law) in a prejudiced Israel. But, I never said or implied that it could.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears
by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Fri Jul 23rd, 2010 at 10:09:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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