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Pat Condell (Europe)

by cagatacos Wed Nov 30th, 2011 at 04:28:26 PM EST

I do not care if he votes UKIP. He tells it like it is.

Nothing more to add.


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Hmmm, what a curious mix. Like it is ? I doubt it as the doubletalk drowned out any possibility of reality.

He talks of the lack of democracy within the EU, but glosses over the right wing's part in frustrating all attempts to widen the democratic oversight of the EU; something they frustrated when they were trying to undermine the idea of a trans-national democracy lest it be too appealing.

Several things like that sprang out at me.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Nov 30th, 2011 at 05:43:01 PM EST
I do not like the style above all. Pointing fingers/aggressiveness is really just piling up on the hedonistic/self-centered society that we have: Blame others.

And, of course, the UKIP seems to be quite comfortable with bankers bonuses (There is youtube footage of Farage defending them explicitly). And they do not talk about a much more undemocratic thing (which probably serves their paymasters very well): WTO, WIPO. These are much more undemocratic than the EU and completely out of the radar.

That being said, I think the content is precisely correct. See e.g., the parts on Greece and Italy.

And just because Condell votes UKIP it does not mean that he swallows the whole package (we do not really know).

Anyway, at this stage, anyone that defends democracy like he does is good for me.

by cagatacos on Thu Dec 1st, 2011 at 04:34:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
agreed about style, the hectoring tone gave me an instant headache.

agreed also about content. like ron paul, these rightwingnuts sometimes hit the bullseye with what they say, but it could be a trap.

it reminds me of OWS and teabaggers, on some issues they are in sync. condell speaks for us all, it's his agenda and his party that are as unconvincing as barroso, ashton and rompuy.

easier to speak truth when you have little power. cf kucinich in the USA.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Dec 1st, 2011 at 05:56:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I do not know if he is a right wing nut at all. Something more of Blue Labour (less religion).

In any case...

I think he is just genuinely concerned about democracy and freedom of expression (right wingers are not all blood sucking vampires, you know...)

But I think the current problem is not one of left versus right, but of aristocratic clepto-corporate-governments against the rest.

If you read people like, say, Karl Denninger, you can easily see that there is a right that is concerned with liberties, freedom, etc. The mainstream right is a different thing (but then again, so is the mainstream left - just see what the so called "socialist/social-democractic" parties are doing in Europe...

by cagatacos on Thu Dec 1st, 2011 at 06:49:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The right's ideas of 'liberty' and 'freedom' often seem to come down to the 'right' to abuse, steal from and exploit others without social redress.

So there's a direct link between their beliefs about 'liberty' and kleptocracy.

Personal responsibility is a reasonable goal, but it's only valid as a moral concept in situations where individuals have the political, personal and economic power to act responsibly.

When some individuals have power over others, personal responsibility becomes another excuse for misuse of that power.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Dec 1st, 2011 at 07:01:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
While it is pretty obvious that those ideas are being used precisely the way you describe, I do think that using a label ("right") and say that everybody that belongs is (directly or indirectly) a kleptocrat is over-reaching.

Notice that left wing ideas are being used with exactly the same end (kleptocracy): more unity, fiscal union, etc are being used to transfer powers from democracy to somewhere else.

What we have is a bunch of fundamentalist aristocrats.

by cagatacos on Thu Dec 1st, 2011 at 07:21:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think of fiscal union as a left wing idea, unless it also includes useful concepts like social investment - which clearly at the moment it doesn't.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Dec 1st, 2011 at 07:26:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No trace of social investment in Sikorski's speech last week, or in the European Parliament's debate today.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 1st, 2011 at 07:40:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have been mulling the idea that as money and thus power is more and more unevenly distributed, we will return to the 19th century political divide where liberals and socialists were on one side and conservatives on the other. Or if you want, middle and labour classes versus upper class. Dostojevskij has a passage somewhere where he describes a characther as a fourties liberal, that is the kind of liberal that fought in the streets in the revolutions of '48.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Thu Dec 1st, 2011 at 08:28:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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