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Civil War in Libya?

by ATinNM Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 12:42:20 PM EST

Need a diary to keep up with situation in Libya.

Basis is a comment I wrote in today's Salon.

Things are turning ugly in Libya.  

Gaddaffi is hiring mercenaries, reportedly at $30,000 (US,) a huge sum considering the average Libyan lives on $2 (US) per day. The regime is distributing weapons to supporters in Sirt.  Some army units firing on demonstrators, including reports of rocket attacks at the city of Benghazi, a stronghold of anti-Gaddaffi support.

Constant reports (tweets and Al Jazeera) of police and army units switching sides and supporting/protecting demonstrators.  Videos of Libyan armed protesters, some with heavy weapons.

Reports generals of the Army and Air Force as well as Colonels in the Army have resigned/been arrested for refusing to order their units to fire on protesters.

Reports protesters have seized radio station in Benghazi and are transmitting over the internet:

here

do not speak Arabic so I cannot confirm.

Reports protests are starting in Tripoli and other cities of eastern Libya, usually considered centers of support for the regime.  

Reports hospitals are running out of space and supplies as "bodies are pouring in."

(and on and on and on ....)

Civil War in Libya starting?

Display:
Civil War in Libya? | 234 comments (234 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
Reports 200 killed in Benghazi.

Another report of Army units using anti-aircraft weapons and firing mortars against protesters.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 12:43:50 PM EST
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
Using anti-aircraft weapons against infantry is an old tradition since the Lebanese civil war. Shilkas worked very well there. According to Wikipedia the Libyan army has 250 Shilkas. Another possibility is the ZU-23-2, of which Libya has 450.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 05:33:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
Oh, further than that.  The 8.8 cm FLAK gun was used in the Spanish Civil War against infantry and all through WW2.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 05:37:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
The dear old 88 was famously used by Rommel, but in the AT-role. not against infantry. But I should indeed have written "since at least the Lebanese civil war". I think that's the first time they used the Shilka in that role at least. IIRC the American sporadically used an M113 with a mingun on top against infantry in Vietnam, in spite of it actually being a (pretty sucky AA-gun.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 05:42:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
The M163.


Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 05:47:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
Angry Arab: Libya videos
This is a compilation of all the videos that have come out of Libya thus far. (thanks anonymous)
MP4 files.

Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 01:56:05 PM EST
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
Andy Carvin (acarvin) on Twitter
shaistaAziz AJE: #Libyan writer Gumal El Gamaty says African mecenries admit they were offered $30,000 to stamp out unrest in #Benghazi


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 02:14:53 PM EST
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
Al Jazeera now reporting live from Libya.

1,200 bed hospital in Benghazi now out of beds.  Doctors are having mental breakdowns trying to cope with the disaster.

Reports of armed - by police! - revolutionaries now arriving in Benghazi.

Military camp in Benghazi reportedly fallen to revolutionary assault that included the use of TNT.  

Reports of increase in flights bringing mercenaries into Libya.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 02:46:57 PM EST
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
I wonder how well secured the airport is. If they are proceeding to all out civil war, with defections of some army units, a priority for the anti-Gaddaffi elements would seem to be stopping the arrival of mercenary reinforcements.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 04:23:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
Consider the possibility that there might be tribal loyalties here, it's an Arab country we're speaking of after all, not a Western nation state. That is, the local police might join revolutionaries in a certain area because they have common clan loyalties against army outsiders from the government.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 07:40:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
From Monael Tahawy who has sources inside Libya:

Security forces in Al Bayda, Darna and Ajdabiya, because of the strong tribal ties there, have joined the protesters, says my source.


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 08:59:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
Tweet saying:

"Confirmed: Gaddafi is executing Libyan army leaders so that they don't turn against him."

Holy shit.  

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 02:57:35 PM EST
Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 3)
There's some amazing Tweets coming from Libya, but even when marked confirmed there's always the question of confirmed by who? they do seem to be missing any real confirmation as if the magic word CONFIRMED makes them true.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 03:13:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
With his own hands?

Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 04:37:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
In case people cant remember how petulant the man can be

WikiLeaks: Gaddafi left enriched uranium on the runway in 'fit of pique' after U.S. visit - Capitalbay News

Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi caused a month-long nuclear scare in 2009 when he delayed the return to Russia of radioactive material in an apparent fit of diplomatic pique, leaked U.S. embassy cables have revealed.

The incident was kept secret by U.S. diplomats who feared 'shoddy' security at Libya's Tajoura nuclear facility, near Tripoli, risked the theft of 11.5lbs of highly enriched uranium, according to documents released by the website WikiLeaks.

The seven casks of spent nuclear fuel were due to be flown to Russia for disposal on a specialised transport plane in November 2009 as part of Gaddafi's promise to abandon Libya's programme of weapons of mass destruction.

But instead Libya refused permission and the Russian plane took off without its cargo, leaving the casks on the runway tarmac at Tajoura overseen by a solitary guard.



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 05:59:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
Nothing quite as alarming is coming through Al Jazeera, see the Live Blog - Libya. Or news report:

Libya forces 'open fire' at funeral - Africa - Al Jazeera English

Libyan security forces have reportedly opened fire at a funeral in the eastern city of Benghazi, killing at least 15 people and injuring scores more as protests against Muammar Gaddafi, the country's long-time ruler, continued.

The victims on Saturday were mourning the loss of protesters who had been killed during anti-government demonstrations in the city during the past week, witnesses said.

A doctor from Benghazi told Al Jazeera that the Al Jalah hospital where he works had received 15 bodies and was treating numerous people following the shootings at the funeral.

He said the hospital had counted 44 deaths in total in three days, adding that it struggling to treat the wounded.

"This is not a well-equipped hospital and these injuries come in waves. All are very serious injuries, involving the head, the chest and the abdomen. They are bullet injuries from high-velocity rifles.

"All are civilians aged from 13 to 35, no police or military injuries," he said, adding that there was no way the wounds could have come from anyone other than security forces.

"Absolutely a shoot-to-kill policy," he said.

Not that this is not bad.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 03:17:26 PM EST
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
Confusing situation in Benghazi.

The following is UNCONFIRMED amalgam of various Tweets and news broadcasts:

Apparently security forces where on the streets of Benghazi today firing on protesters with heavy weapons: anti-aircraft guns, mortars, and sniping from buildings and helicopters.  

Protesters forced the security forces to retreat to a fortified barracks or compound that was later taken by the protesters in some form of military action aided by the use of TNT.  

Chad mercenaries were captured during the conflict.  Their fate is unknown.

Protester casualties are horrific.  Anywhere from 200 (confirmed) to 800 deaths, over 1,200 wounded.  The death/wounded ratio is about right for untrained, ill-equipped ... essentially civilians going up against regular troops in fortified positions.

Armed - by the police? - revolutionaries from Darna,  Al-Bayda, and other cities in eastern Libya are now arriving in Benghazi.

Many, if not all cities in eastern Libya are under control of the protesters/revolutionaries.  

CONFIRMED:

There is a medical emergency in Benghazi.  Supplies and personnel are DESPERATELY needed.  

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 03:19:07 PM EST
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
Al Jazeera CONFIRMING Al-Fadhil/Birka (compound mentioned above) has been overrun by protesters.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 03:21:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
Seen an appeal for Medical personnel to go to the Libyan Border with supplies, but lost it when my browser restarted

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 03:52:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
Britain condemns horrifying violence in Libya | News by Country | Reuters

LONDON Feb 19 (Reuters) - British Foreign Secretary William Hague urged Libya on Saturday to stop using force against protesters and asked governments in the Middle East to respond to the "legitimate aspirations" of their people.

"I condemn the violence in Libya, including reports of the use of heavy weapons fire and a unit of snipers against demonstrators," Hague said in a statement. "This is clearly unacceptable and horrifying."



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 03:21:37 PM EST
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
Protests spreading to western Libya.

Reports of gunfire in Tripoli, the capital.


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 03:38:44 PM EST
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
First reports of government buildings on fire in Tripoli.

Reports of "heavy" gunfire heard in Fashloom  and other city districts of Tripoli.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 04:10:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
F/B posting:

المنارةللإعلام الرئيسية لأن الأن الأن في طريق السور بطرابلس خرج الشباب ونادوا بأسقاط النظام، و الشرطة و الأمن أتجهت للتفريق المتظاهرين، و أطـلاق النار كثيف في جهة منطقة المنصورة بطرابلس.

Google Translation:

Home Almnarpllialam because now is now in Tripoli through the fence and called out young people to drop the system, and the police and security tended to disperse the demonstrators, and they are shooting a heavy hand in Mansoura area in Tripoli.


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 04:35:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
WTH?

Loud explosions & gunfire being heard in and around Fashloum and Souq al Juma

Explosions?  

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 05:14:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
If the insurrection has access to TNT, as suggested that they may have further above in the comments, its kind of hard to make effective use of it without there being explosions.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 12:30:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
Heres a link to the Libya part of the diary I was doing last night to keep track of the various bits of news

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 03:49:58 PM EST
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
Missed that ceebs!  Sorry.

Close this one down?

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 04:02:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
No no no dont kill this one

Was only meaning for that to be up for Yesterday,

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 04:04:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
Ack.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 04:04:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 2)
At this point we need a specific Libya diary rather than a part of a generic one for all countries.

Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 04:42:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
Mapping Pro-Democracy Protests in Libya - Google Maps
This map has been created by compiling reports from trusted accounts on Twitter. Nonetheless, these reports are in general unconfirmed. This information should be considered in the context of there being absolutely no independent media in Libya at this time. If you have any questions you can contact me via Twitter @Arasmus.

Because of the difficulty in properly translating Arabic names into English, reports including latitude and longitude data are preferred. Watch this video to see how to find latitude and longitude using Google Maps:


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 04:08:56 PM EST
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
Tweet:

"6 people are dead in Fashloom, Tripoli. Confirmed by radio phone call."

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 04:29:19 PM EST
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
Live Blog - Libya | Al Jazeera Blogs
As protests in Libya enter their sixth day, following a "day of rage" on Thursday, we keep you updated on the developing situation from our headquarters in Doha, Qatar. (GMT+2)


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 04:30:46 PM EST
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
Tweet:

"Army and police forces of city of Gherian #Libya join protesters and declare it free from Qaddafi militias"

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 04:42:56 PM EST
Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 3)
I suspect Gadaffi will have to go out with his head on a pole.

Berlusconi has declined to comment on the situation. He has close personal ties with Gadaffi who has often been in Rome with his circus of Amazon mercenaries, horses and tents. Thanks to their close personal relation there are outstanding treaties between the two nations.

Berlusconi's only rejoinder was the problem that immigrants might invade Italy were the situation to worsen.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 04:54:15 PM EST
I Fear You Are Right (none / 0)
Gadaffi has painted himself into a corner.  There's no chance he's going to find a country - except North Korea? - crazy enough to allow him asylum.  

What that means is it is very likely Libya is looking at continued Civil War until somebody shoots the fucker.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 05:05:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: I Fear You Are Right (4.00 / 2)
He'd be welcome to set up his tent in Arcore. He might even bring along a string of bungabunga minors for his host.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 05:16:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: I Fear You Are Right (4.00 / 2)
Get Kim Jong Un to the "Wacked-Out-Psychopaths-R-Us" International Bungabunga Summit and you'd have the Trifecta.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 05:23:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: I Fear You Are Right (none / 0)
Twitter / muiz: #Gaddafi has issued a publ ...
#Gaddafi has issued a public statement promising to meet continued public protest against his regime with violence & death... | #Libya

Apparently it was on State Tv from chasing twitter links about

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 05:42:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: I Fear You Are Right (none / 0)
The guy is actually insane...

Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 05:53:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: I Fear You Are Right (none / 1)
Ah, here  is where I should have put this

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 06:03:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: I Fear You Are Right (none / 0)
Seems to me he's the only Arab dictator who actually knows his Machiavelli. Either you are soft and give way to placate the people, or you are hard and massacre everyone. The middle way, letting thugs and police beat people with sticks, will not quiet anything down once it has started and will just make people angrier with you. The old Assad knew this as well.

Of course, this might also be the result of something far more simple: Kaddafi is an unpredicatble and crazy fucker.

   

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 06:15:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: I Fear You Are Right (none / 1)
Excepting the chapter about mercenaries, obviously...

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 06:17:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: I Fear You Are Right (none / 1)
H'mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.  Brag and Bluster is cheap.

From what I can gather the eastern and southern cities of Libya are out of his control and the revolutionaries appear to have some mobility.  The revolutionaries have overrun military bases so they should have some "heavy" weapons: heavy and light machine guns, mortars, and anti-aircraft weapons.  How much ammo they've got and if they know how to use them is a ?  Except for what military personnel (current and former) have 'gone over' the revolutionaries - at this point - will be little better than armed rabble.

There seems to be Gadaffi-loyalist military units still intact - for some definition of "intact" - in brigade "strength" in the eastern countryside.  No one, except them, have clue one about their numbers, arms, combat cohesion, and logistic support.  A typical brigade in continuous light combat typically needs about 50 tonnes of supply/day to remain operational; most of that POL which are extremely vulnerable to ambush/interdiction.  

How much, and how effectively, they can call on supporting units such as their medium artillery (122 and 130 mm) batteries is another open question.  

The Libyan Army is a joke:

The current strength of the Libyan Ground Forces is 50,000 with an additional 43,000 troops as part of the Libyan Peoples Militia Paramilitary Group.  The Libyan Army is organized into 10 Tank Battalions, 10 Mechanized Infantry Battalions, 18 Infantry Battalions, 6 Commando Battalions, 22 Artillery Battalions, 4 SSM Brigade and 7 Air Defense Artillery Battalions.

Their main bases are located in/at/around:


    * El Adem
    * Ajdabiya
    * Aouzou
    * El Bayda
    * Benghazi
    * Ghat
    * Misratah

So getting logistic support and re-supply to the loyalists is a bit of a conundrum.  

The situation, near as I can determine, is IF the revolutionaries can get logistic support or can grab what is in the military depots, Gadaffi's done.  93,000 army personnel split-up into pro/anti factions plus a bunch of lightly armed, untrained, mercenaries lacking experienced CIC command and staff isn't going to do the job.  The loyalist forces in the eastern half of the country have already had their arses handed to them; the forces they have and the force mixture are totally unsuited to urban combat: sending tanks into a city defended by light infantry without adequate heavy artillery - which the loyalists don't have - and supporting light infantry - which the loyalists don't have - is a REAL good way to lose a lot of tanks.  If they use loyalist air power all they will do is create wonderful fortifications and ambush-potentials for the defending infantry.

Overall the revolutionaries have the advantage of being on the strategic offensive, tactical defense: the loyalists HAVE to attack AND win.  All the revolutionaries have to do is

(1) stay where they are

(2) not die

to win.  Even an armed rabble, given sufficient motivation, can accomplish those missions.

If Gadaffi is determined to have a bloodbath, he'll get one but he'd better be prepared, when he loses, for the Libyans to "do a Mussolini" on his ass.  Tin-pot dictators who don't recognize it's time to pack it in usually end-up dangling from a light post, somewhere.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 06:40:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: I Fear You Are Right (4.00 / 3)
So far this has been completely horrible.

The only (relative) good news is that Gaddafi is an escaped mental patient, and is unlikely to have the strategic skills to stay in power for long.  

Throwing money at mercenaries and going on TV to promise death and bloodshed aren't the acts of someone who's in control of the situation.

Gadaffi is a plotter, not a strategist. The advantage of being a plotter is that you can take your time over decisions. When you don't have that luxury, your decisions are unlikely to be effective, or rational.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 07:06:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: I Fear You Are Right (4.00 / 2)
It IS horrible & I'm not trying to obfuscate the fact.

Bet you a dollar to ten pounds Gadaffi is recapitulating the famous Hitler bunker video: sitting around pouring over a large scale map moving imaginary military units to impossible locations to carry-out absurd fantasies of military domination.

Thing is, it cost a lot of lives before Hitler ended it all with a bullet in his brain.  

Lives will be lost as long as there are Libyans willing to travel down his merry path to Hell.  

Until I actually looked at his military resources I thought the bastard had a chance of hanging on by using his military.  Now I know: he doesn't.


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 07:22:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: I Fear You Are Right (4.00 / 3)
Well the peoples Militia  might have experience with whatever is stacked locally

People's Militia

In early 1986, Western reporters were shown military training at a high school in Tripoli at which a minimum of two out of thirty-six class hours a week were devoted to military studies. In addition, one of three summer months was spent at a military camp. Graduates either entered the army directly or went on to college. Those entering college had to continue reserve training at their former high schools. The weekly lessons included hand-grenade throwing, signals and codes, and machine-gun maintenance. High schools concentrated on designated specialties, which in the case of the institution visited was the operation of the Soviet truckmounted Katyusha rocket launcher.


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 07:13:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: I Fear You Are Right (none / 0)
Well, there should be lots of Libyans who know how to use lots of basic military equipment if they get their hands on it.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 09:43:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 2)
it's worse... berlu was asked for a comment, and he said he didn't want to bother khaddafi...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 09:30:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
Google maps: Mapping Pro-Democracy Protests in Libya
This map has been created by compiling reports from trusted accounts on Twitter. Nonetheless, these reports are in general unconfirmed. This information should be considered in the context of there being absolutely no independent media in Libya at this time. If you have any questions you can contact me via Twitter @Arasmus.


Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 04:55:30 PM EST
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
Tweet:

Reports: Independence flag raised over army camp in Tobruq, eastern Libya

Raises interesting possibility the Libyan/Egypt border is now under control of revolutionaries¹.  Could allow humanitarian - notably medical - supplies to enter country?

¹ Think it's time to recognize the "protest" stage is over.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 04:57:51 PM EST
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
(Be damned.)

Tweet:

#Appeal from the demonstrators to Matrooh: Eastern Libya under our control - Border open, we need food and medical supplies


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 05:07:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 3)
I wouldn't call this a civil war. It's a popular uprising against a tyrant. Libya is caught between the two countries who have now ousted their tyrants. Since Gadaffi openly aided Ben Ali I would not be surprised if help to the insurgent population could come overland.

As reported yesterday, the insurgents did seek to block the airport of Benghasi while al Beyda, Libya's third city had reportedly fallen.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 05:08:59 PM EST
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
I wouldn't call this a civil war. It's a popular uprising against a tyrant.

Depends on who's on the side of the tyrant.

Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 05:11:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
You usually get civil wars along tribal or religious loyalties. This is a tyrant who relies on foreign mercenaries as he rightly can't trust his own military.

In the end it's the military who will decide the question in Libya.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 05:21:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
As they did in Tunisia and Egypt. Is the military split?

Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 05:25:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
Reports of police arming protesters and military units - of unknown size - going over to the protesters.

Looks like there is a split in the Army, which maybe the big reason Gadaffi is importing mercenaries from Chad & etc.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 05:34:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 3)
Contracting mercenaries can be a tricky business. They'll be good for local shock & awe but I can't see them holding out in the long run. The big question is the military.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 05:48:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 2)
Hossam عمو حسام (3arabawy) on Twitter
  1. @acarvin trying 2piece together what's going on via @AjEnglish & testimonies I find on youtube.They r closer to slaves than being hired guns 11 minutes ago via Echofon in reply to acarvin
    • How sick can one be, literally bringing foreign mercenaries to put down a revolt by his own people. It's like some Mameluki state. #Libya 14 minutes ago via Echofon
      • These "African mercenaries" according to eyewitnesses calling TV satellite stations, have been involved in the suppression of the revolt. 15 minutes ago via Echofon
        • This is really sick. So it seems Gaddafi was capturing African illegal migrants on their way to Europe, forcing them to work as mercenaries.


        Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
        by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 05:54:26 PM EST
        [ Parent ]
        To Quote Macchiavelli (4.00 / 4)
        Machiavelli's The Prince
        "...if one holds his state on the basis of mercenary arms, he will never be firm or secure; because they are disunited, ambitious, without discipline, unfaithful; gallant among friends, vile among enemies; no fear of God, no faith with men; and one defers ruin insofar as one defers the attack; and in peace you are despoiled by them, in war by the enemy.5


        Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
        by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 05:56:32 PM EST
        [ Parent ]
        Re: To Quote Macchiavelli (4.00 / 3)
        Exactly. The use of mercenaries has always been a characteristic of tyranny. And most often it has led to the tyrant's undoing.

        If the uprising is massive and lasting, the mercenaries will be up shit creek fast.

        We're in for a bloodbath and/or a military coup d'etat.

        There is also a problem with Gadaffi's lucidity. Perhaps crises galvanize him but judging by his pharmacological history he's likely to go over the bend prompting a palace coup.

        by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 06:12:32 PM EST
        [ Parent ]
        Re: To Quote Macchiavelli (4.00 / 2)
        One of the features of Soviet era military writing was that it classified Nato style professional armies as mercenaries, about which Western forces were incredulous. so it may be that the classification we are placing on these troops might fail across cultural and linguistic boundaries.

        Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
        by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 06:32:45 PM EST
        [ Parent ]
        Re: To Quote Macchiavelli (4.00 / 2)
        From what I can gather, Gadaffi has a Praetorian Guard in and around Tripoli and the rest of the armed forces scattered around.  This was done specifically to eliminate potential for a coup.

        Reports are the generals and some colonels have resigned and/or arrested, executed.  IF that is the case, there's nobody to lead a coup; also means the dipshit eliminated his CIC and experienced leadership in the Army chain of command so he has no one to plan and lead the loyalist forces - however many there are - into battle.

        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

        by ATinNM on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 07:48:45 PM EST
        [ Parent ]
        Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 2)
        I wouldn't call this a civil war. It's a popular uprising against a tyrant.

        The two are not mutually exclusive. If the uprising has gotten its hands on police hardware, it's going to look a lot like a war. If they haven't, it's going to look a lot more like a massacre.

        - Jake

        Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

        by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 05:13:51 PM EST
        [ Parent ]
        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
        Earlier today there were reports the regime was handing out weapons to their supporters in Surt & other pro-Gadaffi areas.

        Right now it seems its an armed popular uprising.  

        But this is escalating and, if that psychopathic, murderous, fuck doesn't give it up ... it's going to get worse.

        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

        by ATinNM on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 05:20:34 PM EST
        [ Parent ]
        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)

        Video perports to be a teenager shot by a sniper in Bengazi. No confirmation as to where and when this actually is.

        Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

        by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 05:51:54 PM EST
        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
        Andy Carvin (acarvin) on Twitter
        Rumors only. RT @monaeltahawy: Anyone? RT @KenDozhier Anyone hear any more about Austrian C130s headed to #Libya to help #Ghadaffi?


        Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
        by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 06:56:20 PM EST
        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
        Saw that on this Facebook page about 3 hours ago.  Can't find it, now.

        The planes were supposedly on their way to Libya with a refueling stop in Malta. (!)  (Swear t'God.)

        Sounded completely daft.  

        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

        by ATinNM on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 07:33:42 PM EST
        [ Parent ]
        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
        Especially as you can fly Vienna-Tripoli with a C130 even on half a fuel tank.

        Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
        by Starvid on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 07:43:31 PM EST
        [ Parent ]
        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
        Maybe Gadaffi has called on his military alliance with Austria and they are sending ski troops?

        The whole thing is ridiculous.

        Those things carry about 40 people or 35,000 lbs (~16,000 kilos) cargo.  And the Austrian Air Force has ... 3 (count 'em.)  

        Might do to evacuate Gadaffi and/or whatever cronies are bugging-out but that's about it.


        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

        by ATinNM on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 07:56:06 PM EST
        [ Parent ]
        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
        Oh.

        Fuck.

        It occurs to me the one military application a C130 would be good for is aerosol dispersion of chemical weapons over urban areas.

        Gadaffi is lunatic enough to do it, too.


        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

        by ATinNM on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 08:41:08 PM EST
        [ Parent ]
        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
        But Austria isn't.
        by generic on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 08:57:11 PM EST
        [ Parent ]
        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
        but surely no one else is mad enough to join that particular trip to hell

        Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
        by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 09:58:36 PM EST
        [ Parent ]
        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
        Now reports are circulating the planes are supposedly carrying humanitarian aid to protesters.  

        That does make some sense.

        Don't know if it is true, unfortunately.

        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

        by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 02:22:16 AM EST
        [ Parent ]
        Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 2)
        Jon Williams (WilliamsJon) on Twitter
        Austria sending military plane to Malta to evacuate EU nationals from Libya & other Arab countries following recent unrest


        Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
        by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 08:40:05 AM EST
        [ Parent ]
        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
        Hisham Matar (hishamjmatar) on Twitter
        1. Spoke to a friend in Benghazi. Snipers using semi-automatic guns still firing. If Tripoli doesn't rise, countless more will die.#Feb17#Libya 1 minute ago via web
          • Government newspaper calls the demonstrators 'suicidal' #Feb17 #Libya 11 minutes ago via web
            • Most killed have received wounds to the head and the chest. #Feb17 #Libya 13 minutes ago via web
              • Hospital in Benghazi, 400 beds, is full to bursting. Many of the wounded, as soon as they're bandaged up, return to demonstrating.#Feb17 40 minutes ago via web
                • Doctor in Benghazi hospital puts the death toll at 120. A massacre is taking place in Benghazi. Please spread the news. #Feb17


                Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 08:14:30 PM EST
                Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                Mona Eltahawy (monaeltahawy) on Twitter
                1. SMS sent 2 mobile phones #Libya: asking Libyans `not to give in to traitors,' threatening, `We will hit w/iron fist all oppose revolution'. 2 minutes ago via web
                  • 23 men died. As with most of those who have been killed, the bullet wounds were mostly to the head and the chest. #Libya 3 minutes ago via web
                    • Officers came out, said they are with the people. They invited group of demonstrators inside building, closed gates, shot them. #Libya 4 minutes ago via web
                      • After funerals Friday, 5pm, mourners went 2 demonstrate in front Security HQ building, Benghazi, chant "We & security forces are one people" 5 minutes ago via web
                        • The following tweets on #Libya are from a #Libyan source I trust. He passed on info he has from inside Libya.


                        Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                        by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 08:16:15 PM EST
                        [ Parent ]
                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                        Rory Cellan-Jones (ruskin147) on Twitter
                        http://monkey.org/~labovit/libya_goes_away_again.png. latest on Libya internet from Arbor Networks - came back, now gone again


                        Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                        by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Feb 19th, 2011 at 09:14:45 PM EST
                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                        Renesys confirms that the 13 globally routed Libyan network prefixes were withdrawn at 23:18 GMT (Friday night, 1:18am Saturday local time), and Libya is off the Internet. One Libyan route originated by Telecom Italia directly is still BGP-reachable, but inbound traceroutes appear to die in Palermo. A minority of our peers report some surviving paths through the peering connection between Level3 and Telecom Italia, but traceroutes into those prefixes fail, suggesting that the Libyan cutoff is complete.


                        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
                        by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 02:48:19 AM EST
                        [ Parent ]
                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 2)
                        Renesys:

                        Two-thirds of Libyan routes came back to life at 6:01 UTC (8:01 local time), and the remainder were restored nine minutes later. At the moment, spot checks of Libyan domains and traceroutes into affected networks indicate that connectivity has been restored, and Libya is back on the Internet.



                        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
                        by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 05:37:53 PM EST
                        [ Parent ]
                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                        February 20  AJE Live Stream

                        7:20 am Al Jazeera is speaking with a number of sources inside Libya, including Fathy Terbil, a lawyer who represents relatives of more than 1,000 people killed in an alleged 1996 "massacre" at Abu Salim jail in Tripoli. Terbil's arrest earlier in February helped ignite the ongoing protests.

                        Speaking with Al Jazeera via an Internet phone on Saturday, Terbil said there had been a "massacre" in Benghazi, the country's second-largest city. Security forces were using civilian cars without license places to drive about the city and open fire; dozens had been killed, perhaps hundreds.

                        "People here are living under very tough circumstances," Terbil said. Residents can't move about or drive their cars due to the random gunfire. Alleged mercenaries wearing yellow construction helmets - reported by numerous sources in the country - are roaming about and attacking protesters, he said.



                        "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
                        by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 12:46:09 AM EST
                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                        Live Blog - Libya | Al Jazeera Blogs
                        7:01 am Here's our latest report on the deadly protests in Libya. Al Jazeera speaks with two witnesses in Benghazi, Libya's second-largest city, and summarizes events from around the country, utilizing citizen video that depicts violence being used against demonstrators: Gunfire from security forces, heavy-caliber shells and possible mercenaries:

                        by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 03:10:11 AM EST
                        [ Parent ]
                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                        Reports protests started-up (for second day) in Tripoli and "heavy gunfire and explosions" are being heard.

                        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
                        by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 02:23:16 AM EST
                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                        Saw a YouTube (lost it, damn it) of revolutionaries in some kind of (victory?) celebration driving through a Libyan city displaying RPG rockets, belted anti-aircraft rounds (~15mm,) and small arms: AK-47s and pistols, they had captured (?).

                        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
                        by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 02:47:18 AM EST
                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                        Breaking News (BreakingNews) on Twitter
                        1. Doctor in Libyan city of Benghazi says at least 200 dead in his hospital since unrest began - AP 9 minutes ago via breakingnews.com
                          • Group of 'Islamist extremists' take members of security forces and civilians hostage in Libya, Libyan official tells Al Arabiya


                          Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                          by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:51:15 AM EST
                          Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                          lyse doucet (bbclysedoucet) on Twitter
                          Walid in Benghazi tells @BBCNewshour local police gone, just "highly trained special police." People protecting themselves. #Libya

                          lyse doucet (bbclysedoucet) on Twitter

                          Walid in Benghazi tells @BBCNewshour "sporadic gunfire" now. "Protestors r not going to give up...its now or never." #Libya


                          Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                          by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 07:38:02 AM EST
                          Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                          Britain calls on world to criticise Libya crackdown | News by Country | Reuters

                          LONDON Feb 20 (Reuters) - British Foreign Secretary William Hague called on global leaders on Sunday to speak out against Libya's crackdown on anti-government demonstrators.

                          "The world should not hesitate to condemn those actions," Hague told Sky News.

                          "What Colonel Gaddafi should be doing is respecting basic human rights and there is no sign of that in the dreadful response, the horrifying response, of the Libyan authorities to these protests."



                          Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                          by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 07:46:00 AM EST
                          Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                          Ahmed Salah (Ahmed_Salah_) on Twitter
                          Remember, size for size, 400 dead in Benghazi = 1000 dead in Paris = 5000 dead in New York = 8500 dead in Tokyo #Libya #Feb17


                          Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                          by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 07:51:53 AM EST
                          Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 3)
                          Sadly, for news value it's the other way around...

                          - Jake

                          Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

                          by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 08:53:22 AM EST
                          [ Parent ]
                          Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 5)
                          No, remember you have to do the white-people-to-brown-people conversion, too.  So 400 dead in Benghazi is, like, 240 dead New Yorkers or 1/7 of a Natalie Holloway.

                          Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
                          by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 09:08:31 AM EST
                          [ Parent ]
                          Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                          ...adding: Yes, one ticket to Hell please.  Thank you.

                          Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
                          by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 09:19:19 AM EST
                          [ Parent ]
                          Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 3)
                          Live Blog - Libya | Al Jazeera Blogs
                          The attitude in Tripoli contrasts starkly with that in the Easy. Many people in Tripoli do not believe that what is happening in the East is real, they either attribute it to the 'propaganda' of al-Jazeera (against which have been directed several slogans) or say that Egyptians and Tunisians have infiltrated the country, that 'real Libyans' wouldn't do such things. Historically, the two regions have not been great friends, and now whatever tension there was recently has been sharpening into open hate and disgust towards Eastern Libyans. Some people refer to them as 'Zionists and Israelis'.

                          The most ominous thing I've read so far.  That does sound like the makings of civil war.

                          We all bleed the same color.

                          by budr on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 10:12:33 AM EST
                          Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                          Reports from Italian residents have Tripoli free of unrest with citizens and tourists enjoying the nightlife. Testimony from Benghazi is quite different- a phantom city in which most of the government buildings have been torched. According to Al Jazeera the special forces are using RPG's (rocket propelled grenades) against the population.
                          by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 10:48:11 AM EST
                          [ Parent ]
                          Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                          I seem to remember that there are two types of Warhead available for RPGs the common anti-tank one thats usually seen in use throughout the world, and a lot more fragmentary anti-personel version.

                          Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                          by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 11:04:32 AM EST
                          [ Parent ]
                          Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                          Libyan Dude (ChangeInLibya) on Twitter
                          #Gaddafi is treating #tripoli as a series of "pockets", extremely hard to get from one to another and can be easily contained #feb17


                          Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                          by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 11:01:23 AM EST
                          Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                          Faisal Islam (faisalislam) on Twitter
                          1. Clearly its unconfirmed, but we have corroboratory video of protesters with ammo/ heavy weaponry we believe came from raids on govt caches less than 5 seconds ago via web
                            • #Banghazi: "Protesters received heavy arms and artillery from eastern part of Libya, from AlBayda. They are going to face the mercenaries" 2 minutes ago via web
                              • We spoke few minutes ago. They describe "lots of people dying in the streets" "A lot of cars with troops from foreign countries shooting.." 5 minutes ago via web
                                • C4News just spoken to #Benghazi protesters ...very heavy automatic firing interrupts, exchanging fire. Protesters now have serious weapons


                                Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 11:06:50 AM EST
                                Complicating the geography of ... (4.00 / 3)
                                ... insurrection is the location of oil facilities in Libya:

                                It seems to be free standing eastern and western complexes, and the offshore facilities tied to Tripoli via Az Zawiya to the west.


                                I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

                                by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 12:56:52 PM EST
                                Re: Complicating the geography of ... (none / 1)
                                TNT, pump stations and pipelines in the control of insurgents?

                                "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
                                by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 03:11:51 PM EST
                                [ Parent ]
                                Re: Complicating the geography of ... (4.00 / 3)
                                There are two issues ... denial of resources and tapping resources. I'd guess that keeping some flow of oil going and bringing in revenue seems likely to come from holding Tripoli and Az Zawiya, but there are both opportunities to pump oil in the East and indeed a pipeline (can't tell if its gas or oil, I'm a little unclear on which lines are gas pipelines and which are oil pipelines) that crosses the border into Egypt.

                                I wouldn't guess it would come to an insurrection with a liberated territory spanning the eastern half of the country without the dictatorship falling. But the fact that its not possible to get a stranglehold on oil revenues from a small part in the northwest corner of the country could be part of accelerating a collapse.

                                I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

                                by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 03:24:11 PM EST
                                [ Parent ]
                                Re: Complicating the geography of ... (none / 0)
                                Yeah, they could pump the stuff they control and blow up pipelines to destinations they don't control. But they would have to contend with air interdiction for any deliveries to the east, either attacks on pipelines and pump stations and it would obviously be unwise to send a ship to load crude from Bengazi or points east.

                                "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
                                by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 04:47:03 PM EST
                                [ Parent ]
                                Re: Complicating the geography of ... (4.00 / 2)
                                Of course, forcing the Libyan Air Force to destroy the facilities might in itself deny Libya the use of those oil supplies. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

                                I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
                                by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 12:31:28 AM EST
                                [ Parent ]
                                Re: Complicating the geography of ... (none / 0)
                                Tweet:

                                [Al Jazeera] is talking to a Zuway tribal leader: he issued a warning that if the killing of Libyan isn't halted they'll stop the oil flow


                                She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
                                by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 04:41:35 PM EST
                                [ Parent ]
                                That's a threat for even the ... (none / 1)
                                ... Libyan Air Force to take seriously ~ not only no fuel for their expensive toys but no replacement parts for their expensive toys if the country does not have oil revenue.

                                I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
                                by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 07:41:32 PM EST
                                [ Parent ]
                                Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                Arturo Lopo (ArturoLopo) on Twitter
                                1. AAAAND, the most influencial,important and biggest tribe in #Libya has recently confirmed they'll join protests against #Gaddafi @acarvin 2 minutes ago via web
                                  • Saif Al-Islam, Gaddafi'son,speaks tonight in TVstate #Libya or...start to head the country? @SultanAlQassemi @acarvin Wow!It comes so fast!


                                  Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                  by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 02:50:38 PM EST
                                  Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                  Arturo Lopo (ArturoLopo) on Twitter
                                  #Berlusconi put bussines before human rights http://t.co/JZJrM98 "Don't bother Gaddafi,please" I'd use this against him in Ruby'case #Libya


                                  Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                  by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 02:50:57 PM EST
                                  [ Parent ]
                                  Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                  Sultan Al Qassemi (SultanAlQassemi) on Twitter
                                  AFP: Libya warns Europe it will "suspend cooperation" on illegal immigration if EU doesn't stop encouraging pro-democracy protests


                                  Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                  by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 02:53:50 PM EST
                                  Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                  So Libya - with Tunisia and Morocco - is confirmed in the system of refugee buffer included in the system of Festung Europa.

                                  Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
                                  by A swedish kind of death on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 04:07:40 PM EST
                                  [ Parent ]
                                  Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                  The Euromediterranean partnership should be getting really interesting round about now... To bad there are about 20 EU member states not on the Mediterranean bloating the organization to make sure nothing gets done...

                                  Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
                                  by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 04:17:17 PM EST
                                  [ Parent ]
                                  Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 4)
                                  With the internet down and no news media in country very little reliable information is coming out of Libya.

                                  Al Jazeera reporting:

                                  Anti-government protesters in the eastern Libyan city of Benghazi have reportedly seized army vehicles and weapons amid worsening turmoil in the African nation.

                                  The camps that were overrun yesterday and today would have also been supply depots.

                                  Al Jazeera (cont.)

                                  Mohamed, a doctor from Al Jalaa hospital in Benghazi confirmed to Al Jazeera that members of the military had sided with the protesters.

                                  "But there is still a brigade that is against the demonstrators. For the past three days demonstrators have been shot at by this brigade, called Al-Sibyl brigade."

                                  There are continual reports from tweeters with contacts inside Benghazi it is the Al Saiqa Brigade that has switched sides and is now fighting (literally) on the side of the revolutionaries.  

                                  With the Al Saiqa Brigade and the formation of ad-hoc military "units" - of whatever kind - by the revolutionaries the military value of the Libyan Air Force increases.  Air attack against revolutionary military ground forces cannot be ruled out.  In fact, if the LAF is still loyal, it could prove to be extremely effective against those units.  

                                  By "extremely effective" I mean "blow them to smithereens."

                                  So far, the Libyan Air Force ... or at least units within the LAF ... are remaining loyal.  The regime has been able to air-lift security forces, Libyan Army special forces units, and mercenaries to Benghazi and other protest locations.  

                                  As expected, see discussion above, the mercenaries arriving in Libya have minimal military value and are only effective against an unarmed, disorganized, civilian population.  TBG's comment, above:  

                                  Gadaffi is a plotter, not a strategist. The advantage of being a plotter is that you can take your time over decisions. When you don't have that luxury, your decisions are unlikely to be effective, or rational.

                                  is playing out as the 'penny-packet' deployment of the mercs seems to be intended to terrorize the population into submission.  I reluctantly concede that scenario is still possible; I also wish to note, at this juncture, it could also further inflame the masses against his regime.  

                                  As near as I can determine, the resistance to the regime is spreading and increasing.  A large number of tweets are saying, in various ways:

                                  the Warfalah tribe joined anti-Qaddafi protests.The Warfalah tribe has long been opposed to Qaddafi

                                  Given their history of conflict with the regime:

                                  ... a 11 August 1996 article from the London-based journal Al-Wasat, states:

                                  The Warfalah tribe is one of the tribes opposed to the government. The link between it and the government was almost severed after the regime discovered the existence of an organization led by officers from that tribe within the armed forces. As a result, a large number of them were arrested and some were executed. That led to major confrontations.

                                  a better way to put it would be: most of the rest of Libya has joined them.

                                  The Warfalah tribe is centered around the Bani Walid district:

                                  As the revolution spreads the ability of the regime to find loyal security and military forces, never mind quickly and effectively transporting them, to counter existing protesters/revolutionaries and their ability to react to new protests has to be degrading.  The regime "placed it's bet" on overwhelming and quick-response repression to remain in power.  As their capability to do that goes by the board they will not only start to lose local security and military forces, further degrading their repressive capability, a weak local response with encourage local, district, and national forces of change as the word of local successes spreads.

                                  On balance, things don't look exactly rosy for the forces of change.  The regime can still manage to subdue the revolution.  However, if the protests/revolts continue to increase in numbers and locations and those are sustained the continued existence of the regime is highly questionable.


                                  She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

                                  by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 02:54:25 PM EST
                                  Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                  Tweets saying Warfalah tribe numbers 1,000,000 or about 1/6th of Libyan population.  Also reading the tribe is armed.

                                  If these are true, I don't see how Gadaffi can stay in power.  

                                  She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

                                  by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 03:11:54 PM EST
                                  [ Parent ]
                                  Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                  Sultan Al Qassemi (SultanAlQassemi) on Twitter
                                  1. @AJArabic: Libyan Social Activist: What is happening in Libya is a massacre of unparalleled scale in the history of the Arab World 43 minutes ago via web
                                    • . @AJArabic: Libya's largest & most powerful tribe, the Warfala has joined the anti-Gaddafi protesters

                                    Sultan Al Qassemi (SultanAlQassemi) on Twitter
                                    AFP: Libyan official: Attempts to disrupt oil supplies this dawn have been stopped http://bit.ly/gry0rW Arabic via @AlMasryAlYoum_E


                                    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 02:55:11 PM EST
                                    Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                    Lots of tweets claiming Berber areas in western Libya have joined protests.

                                    She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
                                    by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 03:02:47 PM EST
                                    Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                    Getting tweets the Al Hasawna and Migarha tribes have joined rebellion.

                                    She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
                                    by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 03:08:22 PM EST
                                    [ Parent ]
                                    Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                    Ditto for the Toareg tribal areas.

                                    Gadaffi's tribal alliance crumbling?

                                    She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

                                    by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 03:54:21 PM EST
                                    [ Parent ]
                                    Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 2)

                                    Incoherent tweets out of Musrata (west coast of the Gulf of Sidra) are grim:  "It was a massacre."

                                    Protests seem to have broken out again in Tripoli.

                                    Rumor of a Lt. General switching sides in Tobruk.  No word on if he brought his command and military units with him.  Tweets that the resistance has taken control of the airport there and not allowing mercenaries to land.  

                                    Nothing out of Darnah.

                                     

                                    She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

                                    by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 03:29:48 PM EST
                                    Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                    OK, commented too soon.

                                    Now tweets are claiming Army units in Misurata have switched sides and only mercenaries are fighting for the regime.

                                    A fuzzy pattern is being to emerge.  It's looking like Gadaffi's use of African mercenaries is back-firing.  First hear reports of mercenaries landing in a city and, a couple of hours later, reports of Army units in and around that city going over to the rebellion.  

                                    She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

                                    by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 03:38:18 PM EST
                                    [ Parent ]
                                    Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 2)
                                    Gaddafi's forces massacre protesters - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

                                    And this morning Libya's permanent representative to the Arab League, Abdel Moneim al-Honi, said he was quitting his position in order to "join the revolution" unfolding in his country.

                                    Witnesses told AFP by telephone that Libyan security forces clashed with anti-regime protesters in the Mediterranean city of Misrata, 200 kilometres from Tripoli.

                                    Demonstrators took to the streets there to support residents of Benghazi, 1,000 kilometres east of Tripoli, who have endured the brunt of a crackdown in eastern Libya, they said.

                                    The witnesses said security forces, backed by "African mercenaries," had shot into the crowds "without discrimination."

                                    In Benghazi, protests continued against Gaddafi's rule amid new fighting, lawyer Mohammed al-Mughrabi told AFP by telephone.



                                    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 03:31:23 PM EST
                                    Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                    Something about "rats," "ships," "sinking," and "leaving" springs to mind.

                                    She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
                                    by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 03:39:13 PM EST
                                    [ Parent ]
                                    Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                    Huge, if accurate:

                                    Reports that Egyptians with supplies reached Darnah with four landcruisers. Two more cars on the way.

                                    This means the coast road is open, and relatively secure, from Egyptian border through Tobruk to Darnah.  Yesterday reports of protesters moving from Darnah into Benghazi present possibility the coast road may be open to 2nd largest city in Libya.  Opening a trickle - flow? - of humanitarian supplies to that city.

                                    She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

                                    by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 04:04:42 PM EST
                                    Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 2)
                                    Something is going down in Tripoli.  

                                    Reports of areas of the city being liberated.  Reports of police switching sides.  Reports of police running away.  Reports of mercenaries killing people.  Reports the Interior Minister has switched sides (hardy-dee-har-har.)  Reports Gadaffi has fled.  Reports of massacres of protesters by security forces.  Reports Al-Qaradawi, a widely respected Islamic scholar, has asked all Libyans to go out and protest against the regime "as a religious duty."  Subsequent reports Al-Qaradawi has been arrested.

                                    Beginning to think my assessment, above, was too generous to the regime.  As far as I can tell, the only supporters of the regime are ... the regime.

                                    She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

                                    by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 04:27:30 PM EST
                                    Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 2)
                                    Al Qaradawi statement:

                                    It is your duty to stand up against this Gaddafi. The Fate of God will reach him, & it will be painful.


                                    She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
                                    by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 04:31:14 PM EST
                                    [ Parent ]
                                    Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                    Reports of him being arrested after this broadcast

                                    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 04:50:29 PM EST
                                    [ Parent ]
                                    Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 2)
                                    BBC:

                                    Protests staged in Libyan capital: At least four separate protests are under way in the Libyan capital, Tripoli

                                    Three hours ago I thought the Libyan rebellion was at "the end of the beginning."  

                                    Now it's looking like "the beginning of the end."

                                    She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

                                    by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 04:39:04 PM EST
                                    [ Parent ]
                                    Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                    Definitely lots of rumours floating about in #Libya partly fuelled by disappearance of troops in Tripoli for the past few hours.


                                    She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
                                    by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 05:31:45 PM EST
                                    [ Parent ]
                                    Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                    Al Jazeera saying he's gone to South America - possibly Venezuela.

                                    What happened to yesterday's AC-130s?

                                    by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 05:35:54 PM EST
                                    [ Parent ]
                                    Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                    There were reports that Austria had moved some to Malta to rescue European citizens if it became necessary

                                    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 05:37:25 PM EST
                                    [ Parent ]
                                    Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 2)
                                    It's over.  The regime is falling.

                                    Aljazeera confirms #Libya Interior Minster Abdulfattah Yunus joins protesters; abandons #Gaddafi regime


                                    She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
                                    by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 05:40:30 PM EST
                                    [ Parent ]
                                    Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 3)
                                    Damn! Is this confirmed? At long last we'll be rid of the mad dog of the Middle East... The Iraq war seems even more retarded now that it seemed back in 2003: maybe the Iraqis would have pulled Saddam down by themselves if we'd waited 'til now.

                                    Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
                                    by Starvid on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 07:48:04 PM EST
                                    [ Parent ]
                                    Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                    Not a lot is confirmed, the BBC is reporting heavy gunfire and  buildings on fire plus clouds of teargas in central Tripoli

                                    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 08:26:44 PM EST
                                    [ Parent ]
                                    Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                    Andy Carvin (acarvin) on Twitter
                                    feb17voices BREAKING from @ajarabic: Leader of large Zwaya tribe says they will join opposition unless #Gaddafi steps down today. #Libya #Feb17

                                    Andy Carvin (acarvin) on Twitter

                                    iyad_elbaghdadi Head of Zwiya tribe on Aljazeera live from #Tripoli issues ultimatum to #Gaddafi, in 24 hours we'll stop all oil exports from #Libya #Feb27

                                    Andy Carvin (acarvin) on Twitter

                                    Where r u hearing that? RT @iyad_elbaghdadi: Reports that Al Senussi head of #Gaddafi intel and head of his personal guard, has been killed


                                    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 04:51:48 PM EST
                                    Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                    If he is dead then Gaddaffi is dead or fled.

                                    Seif El Qaddafi is supposed to be giving a speech on State TV ... Real Soon Now.

                                    She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

                                    by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 04:59:33 PM EST
                                    [ Parent ]
                                    Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                    Andy Carvin (acarvin) on Twitter
                                    We'll see. RT @feb17voices: Journalist Suleiman Dogha tells @ajarabic people expecting Saif Gaddafi to announce father is stepping down.


                                    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 05:03:54 PM EST
                                    [ Parent ]
                                    Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                    If he had done that Thursday the regime would have survived, I'm guessing.  And there are reports of electricity being cut in Tripoli.

                                    Philosophical Question on a Sunday:

                                    Does Saif give a speech if (a) nobody cares what he says and (b) nobody can watch it anyway?

                                    She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

                                    by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 05:14:28 PM EST
                                    [ Parent ]
                                    Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                    Need to note, one of the necessary conditions of giving a televised speech is to be alive:

                                    Libyan Diplomat also says he heard Almoutasim shot brother Seif Al-Islam, but he cannot confirm this


                                    She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
                                    by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 05:17:32 PM EST
                                    [ Parent ]
                                    Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                    Libyan unit defects as more Arab protests simmer | Reuters

                                    (Reuters) - Members of a Libyan army unit said they had defected and "liberated" the country's second city from forces loyal to veteran leader Muammar Gaddafi after scores of protesters were killed in the bloodiest revolt now shaking the Arab world.

                                    Two residents of Benghazi told Reuters on Sunday that members of the army's "Thunderbolt" squad had switched sides after days of violence that mark the most serious challenge to Gaddafi's 42-year rule. Al Jazeera reported clashes in the capital between thousands of protesters and Gaddafi supporters.

                                    Revolutions in Tunisia and Egypt have shaken the Arab world and inspired protests across the Middle East and North Africa, threatening the grip of long-entrenched leaders.



                                    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 05:04:22 PM EST
                                    Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                    Neal Mann (fieldproducer) on Twitter
                                    Al Jazeera reporting that the Libyan Ambassador to China has just resigned live on air to Al Jazeera Arabic #Libya


                                    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 05:16:29 PM EST
                                    Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                    Tweet:

                                    Witness: "Presidential plane just took off from Tripoli's airport" according to his uncle working there.


                                    She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
                                    by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 05:25:21 PM EST
                                    Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                    Jonathan Haynes (JonathanHaynes) on Twitter
                                    RT @john_hooper: RT @Dima_Khatib: Venezuelan government sources deny that Gaddafi is on his way to Venezuela. #libya #feb17


                                    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:01:07 PM EST
                                    [ Parent ]
                                    Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                    Somebodies seem to be getting out of Libya:



                                    She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

                                    by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 05:33:17 PM EST
                                    Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                    abuaardvark (abuaardvark) on Twitter
                                    1. Too much unconfirmed news... RT @SultanAlQassemi:Al Arabiya: Unconfirmed reports that Gaddafi has left Libya for an unknown country. 10 minutes ago via TweetDeck
                                      • Um let's confirm that RT @abdu: Libyan diplomat - Saif Al Islam Gaddafi won't speak tonight bc shot by brother Mutasam fighting for control 17 minutes ago via TweetDeck
                                        • Been amazed how AJ Arabic has been able to cover Libya with such limited access on ground. - and by what callers willing to say on air


                                        Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                        by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 05:38:19 PM EST
                                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                        Saif Al Islam Gaddafi now speaking on TV

                                        Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                        by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:01:56 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                        Apparently psychotic delusion runs in the family.

                                        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
                                        by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:06:42 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        He's barely coherent! (none / 0)
                                        Hard to tell what his message is...

                                        Events in the east? "Mistakes were made on both sides..."

                                        It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

                                        by eurogreen on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:08:30 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 2)
                                        Wow it's all down to drug addicts influenced by facebook!

                                        Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                        by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:09:07 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                        Didn't your mother warn you not to watch too much FaceBook or you'll turn into a revolutionary drug addict?

                                        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
                                        by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:12:01 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                        Yellow hats? what the fuck????

                                        Im sure its one of the warnings that blew past me in a chemical haze.

                                        Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

                                        by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:15:25 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                        Saif Al Islam:

                                        The army said that some protesters were drunk, others were on hallucinogens or drugs

                                        Mass media is exaggerating the death toll in the country

                                        Civilians were attacking army posts and the army is not trained to control riots, so they shoot.

                                        Says protesters stole weapons and killed soldiers. "Armed, organized groups with a military program.

                                        Bastard is going to try and take power.

                                        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

                                        by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:10:53 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                        It's like an evil clown show.
                                        by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:17:37 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 3)
                                        Drunken, hallucinating, Facebook fifth-columnists vs drunken, hallucinating, psychotic, Caligula-wannabe.

                                        Is he on Twitter?

                                        by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:31:38 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 6)
                                        No, I think it is more likely he is on LSD.

                                        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
                                        by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:34:29 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 6)
                                        pourmecoffee (pourmecoffee) on Twitter
                                        Glenn Beck's gonna need a bigger blackboard.


                                        Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                        by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:37:54 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                        You know who's behind all this: George Soros!!!!!11111oneoneone

                                        Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
                                        by Starvid on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 07:49:04 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 2)
                                        He IS going to try to take power.

                                        Tomorrow we will have a big change otherwise you people prepare yourself for civil war

                                        Lessee, on the revolutionary side are all the major cities, all the major tribes, and most of the Army.  And - ooops - the Air Force isn't obeying your orders.

                                        On your side is ... uh ... who?  (Exactly)

                                        And, BTW, there's roughly 250,000 armed Walafah tribesmen about 3 hours from where you are sitting.  Remember those 50 Army officers Dad shot back in 1995?

                                        So do they.

                                        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

                                        by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:33:20 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 3)
                                        Now he's threatening a crack-down by the capable army, which was badly trained a little while ago. This would be great comedy, if a couple of thousand more people weren't likely to die shortly.
                                        by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:36:27 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                        I think this beats Mubarak's speech by a length.

                                        Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
                                        by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 07:04:12 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                        There are also people who want to create a gov in Benghazi and others want an Islamic emirate in Bayda.

                                        While others want to erect a Disneyland in Tobruk.

                                        This is total gonzo weird.

                                        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

                                        by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:13:54 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 2)
                                        Ive seen weird political speeches,  but this just about is the winner

                                        Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                        by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:16:44 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                        He's trying to threaten the West at the same time, I think.

                                        High on painkillers after being shot earlier?

                                        by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:19:08 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Jesus Christ on a TV Set (none / 0)
                                        What was that supposed to accomplish?

                                        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
                                        by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:23:09 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Jesus Christ on a TV Set (4.00 / 3)
                                        Well it takes the prize for "Worst televised speech" from Mubarak, and I didn't think that one would happen.

                                        Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                        by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:26:32 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Jesus Christ on a TV Set (4.00 / 2)
                                        A rambling mish-mash of threats, conspiracies and pleas for unity and disunity more or less simultaneously.

                                        Does anyone know if his body language is insane by Libyans standards, because it's mad by mine.

                                        by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:27:39 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Jesus Christ on a TV Set (none / 0)
                                        IMPERIALISM! LOOK OUT FOR THE IMPERIALISM!
                                        by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:28:48 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Jesus Christ on a TV Set (none / 0)
                                        THE IMPERIALIST DRUG CELLS! FROM CANADA!
                                        by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:31:04 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Jesus Christ on a TV Set (none / 0)
                                        AND MANCHESTER!!!!

                                        Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                        by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:32:09 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 3)
                                        And that was Yet Another thrilling episode of Crazy, Insane, Arab Dictators.  Stay tuned to this State TV for the for more two more shows, filmed live and on-location in Libya.

                                        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
                                        by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:56:42 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                        "Libya is not Tunisia or Egypt."

                                        Gosh.  Ya think?

                                        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

                                        by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:17:20 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        The only thing holding Libya together (4.00 / 2)
                                        ... is oil money. And who's going to pay for schools for your kids?

                                        This guy must have shot all his speechwriters for sedition, just before the show... he's obliged to ad lib, and he's lost the plot.

                                        It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

                                        by eurogreen on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:20:41 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: The only thing holding Libya together (none / 0)
                                        Perhaps Mark Thomas has managed to get his PR company running again



                                        Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

                                        by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:23:13 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: The only thing holding Libya together (none / 0)
                                        The translator sounds about ready to give up in disgust.
                                        by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:23:50 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: The only thing holding Libya together (none / 1)
                                        Wow effectively admitting that they've lost control of the east of the country.

                                        Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                        by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:28:03 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: The only thing holding Libya together (none / 0)
                                        Correct me if I'm wrong but ...

                                        Isn't that where most of the oil is?  Over along the Egyptian border?

                                        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

                                        by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:37:16 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: The only thing holding Libya together (none / 1)
                                        im not certain how much is where, but from the map up the page it looks like the mass is on the east

                                        Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                        by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:40:11 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 2)
                                        It's worth noting the Libyan protests, against one of the most brutal governments in the world, only started five days ago.

                                        And now ... it's crumbling before our eyes.

                                        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

                                        by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 05:47:11 PM EST
                                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 3)
                                        Is it that Libyan regime was more fragile than we thought? or is a more brutal government fallen apart because they shatter, rather than bend a bit first?

                                        Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                        by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 05:52:15 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 3)
                                        I'd go with the shatter.  

                                        Gadaffi seems, in my inexpert opinion, to have stayed in power chiefly by being a psychopathic, murdering, thug and being the fulcrum of a careful balance between the different regions and tribes.

                                        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

                                        by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 05:59:27 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                        This was looking like Romania 1989, but Ghadafi managed to flee.

                                        Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
                                        by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 07:06:32 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                        Nobody seems to know where the bastard is.

                                        Considering the family, I'm wondering if Junior didn't practice a teensy bit of parricide earlier today.

                                        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

                                        by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 07:23:29 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                        What was all that talk about his brother shooting him?

                                        Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
                                        by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 07:30:44 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                        A diplomat on Al Jazeera said he had heard Almoutasim shot brother Seif Al-Islam.  Apparently diplomat was wrong.  

                                        BTW, Sief is supposed to be the sane one in the family.

                                        (Makes you think.)

                                        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

                                        by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 07:44:32 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Anybody want a copy of ...? (none / 1)

                                        I can get 'em for you wholesale.

                                        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

                                        by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 05:50:02 PM EST
                                        Re: Anybody want a copy of ...? (none / 0)
                                        I have a copy somewhere that a friend brought back from an oil company job in Libya,

                                        Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                        by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 05:53:28 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Want to Play the New ... (none / 1)
                                        International All-Time Boffo-Smash Hit Guessing Game:

                                        WHERE'S GADAFFI????

                                        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

                                        by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:02:11 PM EST
                                        Re: Want to Play the New ... (4.00 / 4)
                                        In a coma.

                                        Duh.

                                        by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:25:19 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Want to Play the New ... (none / 1)
                                        How many days before he's expelled from the Socialist International and Switzerland freezes his assets?

                                        Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
                                        by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 07:08:08 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Want to Play the New ... (none / 1)
                                        Have they had access since mad brother Hannibal caused all sorts of problems with Switzerland?

                                        Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                        by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 07:12:54 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Want to Play the New ... (none / 0)
                                        LOL! Payback's a bitch... ;)

                                        Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
                                        by Starvid on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 07:52:18 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Want to Play the New ... (none / 0)
                                        Or, in this case, not being paid back is a bitch.

                                        - Jake

                                        Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

                                        by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:39:05 AM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Want to Play the New ... (4.00 / 3)
                                        If I were him right now, I'd be playing the fun game of "pick the air force pilot that won't suffer you a tragic accident as you skip town."

                                        - Jake

                                        Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

                                        by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:57:28 PM EST
                                        [ Parent ]
                                        Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                        Andrew Exum (abumuqawama) on Twitter
                                        1. Hahaha, this AJE anchor is just reading through his notes of all the crazy ass stuff he's heard over the past 45 minutes. 1 minute ago via HootSuite
                                          • Also, stay off the crack pipe, kids. #seifalislamwisdom 10 minutes ago via HootSuite
                                            • The U.S. fleet? Yeah, that's still scary. But the "European fleet" is like four rowboats at this point, I think. So don't sweat it, Libya. 11 minutes ago via HootSuite
                                              • Visas, people! Visas! Do you want to deal with that? Keep me and my dad or you'll drown in paperwork!


                                              Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                              by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:42:38 PM EST
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                              Andrew Exum (abumuqawama) on Twitter
                                              Word. LSE should be ashamed of this. RT @randomvariable: @abumuqawama LSE PhD grads have no style. Definitely applying to King's instead...


                                              Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                              by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:43:16 PM EST
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                              So LSE is one of the universities charging £9000 per year for their degrees, the maximum amount of fees under the new scheme. after that speech I think we've seen a couple of thousand wiped from the asking price

                                              Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                              by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 07:01:47 PM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                              Now you're labouring under the presumption that the purpose of the LSD is to educate people.

                                              It's not. It is to indoctrinate them properly, and introduce them to the good old boys' network that will set them up with cushy gigs and golden parachutes for the rest of their career.

                                              - Jake

                                              Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

                                              by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 07:05:06 PM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                              ian katz (iankatz1000) on Twitter
                                              Saif Gaddafi's LSE PhD: "I shall be primarily concerned with the central failing of global governance: it is highly undemocratic."


                                              Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                              by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 07:24:26 PM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                              Twitter / ian katz: I hope the London School o ...
                                              I hope the London School of Economics has cashed its £1.5m cheque from Saif #Gaddafi to its Centre for Glbal Governance http://bit.ly/hCgGmu


                                              Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                              by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 07:38:42 PM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                              That's rather sad for an institution founded by the Fabians.

                                              Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
                                              by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 09:24:21 AM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                              I think the LSE was hijacked by Hayek back in the '30s.

                                              "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
                                              by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 09:53:33 AM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                              True: History of the London School of Economics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                                              During these years and under the directorship of William Beveridge, future father of the welfare state and the National Health Service, LSE redefined the study of economics and the new conception of the study of economics as "a science which studies human behaviour as a relationship between ends and scarce means which have alternative uses" is looked to as the norm. LSE in this sense must be looked at as the father of modern economics studies. Under Beveridge, Friedrich Hayek was appointed as a professor and he brought about the ascendancy of the LSE through his famous debates with John Maynard Keynes.


                                              Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
                                              by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 10:03:57 AM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                              Also: History of the London School of Economics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                                              While the LSE's initial reputation was that of a socialist-leaning institution, this had changed by the 1960s, with LSE Director Walter Adams fighting hard to remove LSE from its Fabian roots. This led to many student protests, which also involved Lionel Robbins, who had returned to LSE as chairman of governors, having been a member of staff for many years.


                                              Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
                                              by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 10:05:17 AM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                              Marcus A. Roberts (marcusaroberts) on Twitter
                                              It's worth remembering that the Daily Telegraph reported in '09 that the SAS were training Libyan Special Forces http://tinyurl.com/lglx4p


                                              Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                              by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 06:59:11 PM EST
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                              Eowyn9‎ tweets:

                                              Seif, you didn't mention UFOs, the Knights Templar, or 2012...such a shame, why did you leave them out?


                                              She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
                                              by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 07:00:59 PM EST
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                              exiledsurfer: "Full text of Saif ..." « Deck.ly
                                              Full text of Saif Gadaffi's speech, as Transcribed and tweeted live by @SultanAlQassemi with screenshots from AlJazeera.


                                              Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                              by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 07:13:26 PM EST
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                              Weird.

                                              So he's claiming that unnamed "businessmen" brought in the sub-saharan mercenaries?

                                              Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman

                                              by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 07:19:37 PM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                              well, as it turned out to be an unpopular move (who would have thought??) he's got to throw someone under the bus for it.

                                              It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
                                              by eurogreen on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 07:22:13 PM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 2)
                                              The local response

                                              Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                              by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 07:26:08 PM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 3)
                                              Seif Ghaddafi's speech provokes largest collection of shoes ever waved at a TV in protest
                                              LOL

                                              Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
                                              by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 07:31:20 PM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                              ceebs and AT, freakin' stellar blogging!

                                              'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
                                              by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 07:35:50 PM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 3)
                                              Twitter Al Jazeera,and a selection of people who appear trustworthy are the ones who need praise, we just watch things as they fly past.

                                              Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                              by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 07:41:01 PM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                              The same people largely to be praised/blamed for Tuesday evening Salons :)

                                              Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                              by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 07:55:23 PM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                              Is there anywhere I can watch this amusing speech? :)

                                              Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
                                              by Starvid on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 07:58:31 PM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                              Can't see a link, for it yet, Im sure it will become the new downfall when it does pop up.

                                              Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                              by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 08:05:39 PM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 3)
                                              Who? What? Why? (fleetstreetfox) on Twitter
                                              Has anyone else noticed that our Middle East peace envoy's been noticeably quiet of late? #Blair #Gadaffi #Mubarak #BenAli


                                              Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                              by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 07:37:06 PM EST
                                              Daily Mail Warning (none / 1)
                                              http://istyosty.com/tmp/cache/cc8e9115142224dd8fb3d4085a23da5150f27976.html

                                              The favourite son of Colonel Gaddafi, who played a key role in Abdelbaset Al Megrahi's release, has bought a £10million home in one of London's wealthiest and most
                                              prestigious suburbs.

                                              The neo-Georgian eight-bedroom property bought by Saif al-Islam Gaddafi in a secluded road in Hampstead, North London, boasts a swimming pool, sauna room, Jacuzzi and suede-lined cinema room where he will be able to monitor world events.




                                              Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                              by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 08:12:17 PM EST
                                              Re: Daily Mail Warning (none / 1)
                                              suede-lined cinema room

                                              With extra padding?

                                              by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 08:14:27 PM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Daily Mail Warning (none / 1)
                                              Well It's the rich persons version of latex wallpaper in case his father visits.

                                              Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                              by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 08:19:08 PM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Daily Mail Warning (4.00 / 4)
                                              After all, Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, PhD, LSE, could always lecture in economics at the LSE -- how could they say no?

                                              "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
                                              by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 10:46:33 PM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Daily Mail Warning (none / 1)
                                              See also:

                                              Another neighbour, an Iraqi, said: `I think it's great. With the Gaddafis around there won't be many break-ins.

                                              'Everyone is saying Gaddafi's cousin is going to buy the house opposite, too.

                                              `They can all come and live here as far as I am concerned.'

                                              by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 08:18:06 PM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Daily Mail Warning (none / 1)
                                              That Iraqui, he's not a mr Curveball is he? or an S Hussein Jr?

                                              Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                              by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 09:48:22 PM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Daily Mail Warning (none / 0)
                                              "has bought" yesterday, or months or years ago?

                                              Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
                                              by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 01:44:52 AM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Daily Mail Warning (none / 1)
                                              I presume its the equivalent of the Blair flats in Bristol, brought for while he "Studied" his PhD

                                              Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                              by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:06:52 AM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                              Sadly, people are still dying in Libya.

                                              [Al Jazeera English] call w/ protester: Women, children, men fighting, many ppl killed! Centre of Tripoli, Green sq now belongs to the protesters.

                                              wikipedia:

                                              Tripoli is dotted with public spaces, but few fit under the category of large city parks. The Green Square located near the waterfront is scattered with palm trees, the most abundant plant used for landscaping in the city.

                                              Reports of Libyan Special Forces firing heavy artillery on Tripoli protesters.

                                              She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

                                              by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 08:26:22 PM EST
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                              What does heavy artillery entail here?a Autocannons, mortars, 155 mm shells?!

                                              Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
                                              by Starvid on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 08:35:54 PM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                              Who knows, could be anything from heavy machine guns, auto cannons, up to heavy mortars or 155mm Italian Artillery

                                              Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                              by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 08:41:23 PM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                              The Libyan Army has 152mm SpGH DANA, 150mm Palmaria, and 152.4 SO-154 Self-propelled artillery.  If they were going to use anything that seems to be the most likely, to me.

                                              They also have 122mm self-propelled tubes as well as 122mm and 130mm towed artillery.

                                              Reports don't say what it being used.   Libya got most of its arms in the 1980s and the Russians have a "thing" about mortars ... it could even be some 120mm (there's a bazillion of 'em) or the old 160 mm F-853A.

                                              She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

                                              by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 08:54:23 PM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                              other comments are describing it as AA guns, so 23 or 57mm stuff

                                              Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                              by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 08:58:35 PM EST
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                              Oh god.

                                              If they deployed a ZSU-23-4 "Shilka" against the masses we saw in the photographs it would be a slaughter.

                                              She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

                                              by ATinNM on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 09:06:22 PM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                              well the 2 barrel wheeled version is a pretty standard infantry kit, but after the 67 and 73 arab israeli wars  they appear to have invested heavily in ZSUs and  have 250 of them (almost as many as the soviet union and poland recieved between them in Warsaw pact days)

                                              it may be some are even this variant if the mad old bugger was planning for a day like this

                                              ZSU-23-4 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                                              ZSU-23-4M2 (1978): so called "Afghan" variant. Reequipment performed during the Soviet War in Afghanistan for mountain combats. Radar system was removed and night-sight was added. Ammunition increased from 2,000 rounds to 4,000 rounds.


                                              Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                              by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Feb 20th, 2011 at 09:46:05 PM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                              This thread is getting long. I suggest a new open thread, I'll put one up.
                                              by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 01:22:05 AM EST
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                              Done.
                                              by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 01:30:35 AM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                              great i can get to it by phone

                                              Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                              by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 05:10:07 AM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 2)
                                              You just want to blow my certainty of having the ET diary with the most comments!!!

                                              grumble, mumble

                                              :-)


                                              She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

                                              by ATinNM on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 01:47:57 AM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                              Ithink we could chip in. What's the longest, Migeru?
                                              by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 02:29:36 AM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (4.00 / 2)
                                              Well over 400.

                                              DoDo was keeping the list up to date last time I checked, which might have been many months ago...

                                              Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman

                                              by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 02:45:05 AM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 1)
                                              I'll comment to chip in, but my 2 cents worth is overpriced, as I have nothing to add, except:

                                              Thank You ATinNM

                                              by Mentatmark (mentatmark at gmail dot com) on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 12:26:43 AM EST
                                              [ Parent ]
                                              Re: Civil War in Libya? (none / 0)
                                              Sky Sports (SkySportsLive) on Twitter
                                              1. Bahrain Grand Prix called off due to anti-government protests #f1 18 minutes ago via TweetDeck
                                                • Formula 1 teams agree not to go to Bahrain for for test session starting on March 3rd #f1


                                                Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
                                                by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 11:12:40 AM EST
                                                Civil War in Libya? | 234 comments (234 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)


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