Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.

Libya

by afew Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 01:28:04 AM EST

Fighting goes on in Libya. There have been rumours (unconfirmed) of Gaddafi's flight.

Use this as an open thread for updates.

(Also on protests in other Arab countries and in Iran).


Display:
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 01:39:09 AM EST
Reports and tweets are coming thick and fast.

Apparently "out of government control" does NOT mean "secure."  Benghazi seems to be secure.  Can't find out anything about Tobruk.  Elsewhere continuous reports and tweets of bands of roving mercenaries and die-hard security forces on a murder spree: roaming the city in trucks and cars, sniping, and shooting people for the hell of it.  

  1.  The Tarhouna tribe in and around Tripoli have abandoned Gaddafi and joined the demonstrations; much of Libya's army is Tarhouna.

  2.  The Nafusa Mountains west and southwest of Tripoli are out of government control; Al Jazeera confirmed.

  3.  Police and Army units in Tripoli are joining protesters.

  4.  The regime seems to control only a small part of Tripoli, the rest is out of their control.

  5.  The attack on the protesters at Green Square last night was a slaughter.  The dead and injured are "uncountable."  

  6.  Humanitarian aid, mostly medical supplies, have been dispatched into Libya from Egypt and Tunisia.  

  7.  The medical situation is frightful.  Horrific.  Hospitals all across Libya are said to be "overflowing."  Morgues ... ditto.  The total number of protester casualties - dead and wounded - will run well over ten thousand.  Making it even worse, Al Jazeera Arabic reportedly confirming Pro-government forces are killing people at hospitals.  

  8.  Protesters are burning police stations, security forces buildings, and Army installations.  

  9.  Reports that protesters have seized two satellite TV and an FM radio station.

  10.  People from Zawiya, Sabratha and other surrounding towns are now headed to Tripoli.

  11.  Protesters in eastern Libya are now "heavily armed" after taking over Army depots and installations.  

  12.  500 Libyan army soldiers have been released from a Benghazi prison.  They were arrested for refusing to fire on protesters.

  13.  For the No Shit, Sherlock File: journalist says "Libya is on the brink of revolution."  

It now looks like the Gadaffi Regime is ending.  It's now a matter of taking Tripoli, hunting down the last hold-outs, and how many revolutionaries and protesters will become casualties doing it.



She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 02:34:35 AM EST
Much of the speech delivered this morning by Seif al-Islam can be seen in English on Repubblica TV. It is broken up in three parts, although one is presently a repeat.

The Libyan ambassador to India has resigned in protest over the massacres.

The Libyan ambassador to China declared this morning that Gadaffi has likely fled the country.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 02:42:59 AM EST
Al Jazeera reporting oil workers at the Al Mafoora (sp?) oil field are on strike.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 03:04:59 AM EST
Confirmed. Total strike at al Nafura oil fields.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 03:51:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Azewaya tribe has menaced that they will cut oil supplies to Europe if Gadaffi is aided or abetted in anyway. Apparently they have the means...
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:31:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They have actually demanded that Europe help the demonstrators, otherwise pipelines will be stopped.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:35:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
An assault this morning in Tripoli against a South Korean construction company. 18 wounded, according to South Korean sources.

This morning a large crowd is gathering in Sana'a calling for the resignation of president Ali Abdullah Saleh. Over 1,000.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 03:22:13 AM EST
Libyan ambassadors to China and the Arab League have resigned.

Eyewitness reports of government buildings and a TV station burning in Tripoli.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 03:36:58 AM EST
Al Jazeera now confirms government buildings burning in Tripoli.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 03:46:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Confirmed State TV headquarters ransacked and burning this morning.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 03:48:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why burn it rather than use it to broadcast agit-prop?

Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:33:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It may not have been a leadership decision, but a spontaneous event.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 05:09:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't imagine there's much coordination or leadership in the revolt.

Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 05:13:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's my point.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 06:02:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Central Government Building is now burning. Let's hope it's all over by today.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:28:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Numerous reporters testify to the destruction of the Palace of the People in Tripoli- not Arcore- by fire. The building is the symbol of Gadaffi's regime.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:38:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
# Image_normal MAlyazoury RT @OppressorsOrg: Mounted AntiAircraft Guns Used Against #Libya #Demonstrators In #Tripoli http://youtu.be/BxNSMH-ENbg Bring the Criminal Gaddafi Family DOWN! 1 minute ago via TweetDeck


The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman
by dvx (dvx.clt t gmail dotcom) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:44:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
RT @ShababLibya: BREAKING CONFIRMED: Tarhuna is out in the streets! The army has joined the protesters! Heading to Tripoli now!! #feb17 #gaddaficrimes #libya


The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman
by dvx (dvx.clt t gmail dotcom) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 03:48:18 AM EST
Benghasi airport effectively in hand of the rivolt. An Air Turkey plane had to turn back this morning.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 03:54:25 AM EST
Italian Minister of Foreign Affairs Frattini arrived in Brussels for joint declaration of European Union deploring repression in Libya.

He declared that he hoped in the territorial integrity of Libya since an Islamic Emirat of Eastern Libya would be a menace for Europe.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:04:47 AM EST
According to Al Jazeera, Benghazi is calm and totally in hand of the demonstrators this morning. A civic committee is being formed to handle administration of the city.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:10:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Security forces in Tripoli are ransacking and robbing banks, etc. Unconfirmed reports of 80 dead in Tripoli today.

Gadaffi's tribe has apparently abandoned him.

Eastern Libya freed and stable today.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 05:17:10 AM EST
David Cameron turned up in Egypt to talk. will be talking to all oposition parties except Muslim Brotherhood.

Have the egyptian people not suffered enough?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 06:36:16 AM EST
from now on?

Consistency. Hobgoblin. Humbug.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 06:44:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
how arrogant!  
by stevesim on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 08:18:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well originally this was meant to be a trip round the middle east with a planeload of arms salesmen.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 11:56:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Jack Shenker (hackneylad) on Twitter
Cameron has made it into #Tahrir - shame civilian security cordons aren't still up, they did a good job keeping out counter-revolutionaries


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 01:05:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
rather obscurely

of a novel by Gustave Flaubert : Salammbo

Actually it would be more appropriate for the Tunisian revolution, since the action takes place in and around Carthage. But all this talk of civil war, tribes and mercenaries brings it to mind.

After the First Punic War, Carthage is unable to fulfil promises made to its army of mercenaries, and finds itself under attack. The fictional title character, a priestess and the daughter of Hamilcar Barca, an aristocratic Carthaginian general, is the object of the obsessive lust of Matho, a leader of the mercenaries. With the help of the scheming freed slave, Spendius, Matho steals the sacred veil of Carthage, the Zaïmph, prompting Salammbô to enter the mercenaries' camp in an attempt to steal it back. The Zaïmph is an ornate bejewelled veil draped about the statue of the goddess Tanit in the sacrosanct of her temple: the veil is the city's guardian and touching it will bring death to the perpetrator.

A good read, if you like turgid blood-and-thunder epics. I doubt that it has much to tell us about the Libyan revolution, though.

Because of its popular impact in 19th century France, Edward Said would (or should) probably class it as seminal in the creation of that colonialist cultural construct : orientalism.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 06:43:40 AM EST
eurogreen:
Edward Said would (or should) probably have classed it


Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 08:55:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Libyan sources report that the son of the national hero who fought the Italian invasion, Mohamed Omar al-Mukhtar, has appeared in the streets of Benghasi where he held a discourse and adhered to the uprising against Gadaffi.

A clash in northern Morocco left five dead today, according to the Moroccan government.

The Italian opposition is heavily criticising the Italian government for their privileged relation with Gadaffi and has called for a condemnation of the government violence as Germany just did at noon. The Minister of Foreign Affairs seems more concerned with a surge in clandestine arrivals on Italian coasts. While Gadaffi menaced Europe that he would no longer hold back tide of illegal immigrants, he is no longer in a position to block any prospective flow. Berlusconi has kept silent about his friend's plight. After all his portrait is on some Libyan banknotes.

There were reports this morning that a military base abandoned near Tripoli was attacked by the air force in order to prevent arms falling into the rebellion's hands.

The general impression is of a void of power today in Tripoli, a sort of anarchy, that should resolve itself by the afternoon when a mass prayer demonstration has been called.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 06:50:23 AM EST
After all his portrait is on some Libyan banknotes.

Oh, I want one!

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 07:12:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Standard & poors downgrades Bahrain "on heightened political risk".

rumors that 2000 bangladeshi workers are being held at knifepoint by rebels near benghazi

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 07:23:33 AM EST
Via ex uni peers - a pic of Saif Gaddafi signing away £1.5m of Libyan oil money to my alma mater, the LSE pic

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 07:43:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
many expats evacuated from Aden, those left behind stockpiling, lying low, planning exit strategies but say no hostility directed to them

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 08:06:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Davos @WEF revokes #saif gaddafi 's Young Global Leader status: that'll teach him .... But is Switzerland taking sides?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 08:24:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But wouldn't he make a great game show host?

His father has (almost literally) thrown him under the bus, his country is on fire, and now this.

Today is just not his day.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 08:28:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ceebs:
Young Global Leader
<snort>

Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 08:53:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
because his local Neighbourhood Watch group in Hampstead will be happy to have him back.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 09:20:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
'Young Global Leader"! At Davos? Just imagine the dignity that Saif Gaddafi confers on the other Davos Young Global Leaders! See the list.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 11:58:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You mean like Zuckerberg or Defense Minister Theodore Maria Xerox von and zu Guttenberg?

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anas Nin
by Crazy Horse on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 12:34:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Anti-government protests break out in Libyan oil town of Ras Lanuf, Libya's Quryna newspaper says - Reuters

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 08:15:40 AM EST
Reuters: UK summons Libyan ambassador to protest at killings
http://bit.ly/halGOZ

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 10:01:25 AM EST
Europe plans for Libya evacuation: EU foreign ministers discuss plans to transport citizens out of Libya, as vio... http://aje.me/dMmkVb

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 10:07:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Omar al-Bashir will not stand for re-election in Sudan http://gu.com/p/2n97d/tf

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 10:13:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Iran this time:

IRAN: "URGENT WE NEED YOUR HELP" خبر فوری استفاده از گاز اشک آورهای جدید بر علیه مردم

"Attention all Chemical Engineers"

The Islamic regime in IRAN  is using a new "tear gas" that renders those exposed into a state of semi paralysis and violent sickness. We want to reach out to chemical engineers the world over to help us identify the gas and how to defuse it?

 

Symptoms include:

severe nausea and vomiting (in some cases blood),

semi paralysis,

blurry vision.



The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman
by dvx (dvx.clt t gmail dotcom) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 10:32:33 AM EST
Shit.

Iran and weapons of mass destruction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A U.S. Central Intelligence Agency report dated January 2001 speculated that Iran had manufactured and stockpiled chemical weapons - including blister, blood, choking, and probably nerve agents, and the bombs and artillery shells to deliver them. It further claimed that during the first half of 2001, Iran continued to seek production technology, training, expertise, equipment, and chemicals from entities in Russia and China that could be used to help Iran reach its goal of having indigenous nerve agent production capability.[220] However the certainty of this assessment declined and in 2007 the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency limited its public assessment to just noting that "Iran has a large and growing commercial chemical industry that could be used to support a chemical agent mobilization capability."[221]


Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 10:39:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
WPONAC: Iran's Chemical Weapon Program
The ZKA further alleges that Iran probably possesses sulfur mustard, tabun, and prussic acid (hydrogen cyanide), and may possess sarin and VX.


Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 10:42:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
NBC Weapons: Iran's Chemical Arsenal
Iran's major chemical weapons production facility is based at Damghan, about 300 kilometers east of Tehran. American intelligence agencies estimate that Iran is producing 1,000 tons of chemical weapons a year, including mustard gas, phosgene, and various cyanide agents. These agents are older technology than the sarin nerve gas used in the 1995 Tokyo subway attack, but they can still kill. 


Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 10:43:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
NTI: Research Library: Country Profiles: Iran Chemical Overview
Despite a lack of evidence suggesting CW-related activity, many Western capitals view ongoing efforts to increase the size and sophistication of the Iranian chemical industry with suspicion. However, past accusations must be balanced with the current lack of trustworthy, open source information regarding the Iranian CW program, coupled with the intelligence agencies' new less definite assessments and the fact that CWC inspections of Iranian facilities have not revealed any evidence of foul play on Iran's part.


Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 10:48:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
sounds like they need chemists, not chemical engineers.
by stevesim on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 10:54:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sounds like

List of chemical warfare agents - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These are substances that produce debilitating effects with limited probability of permanent injury or loss of life. The casualty effects typically last over 24 hours, and though medical evacuation and isolation is recommended, it is not required for complete recovery. These, together with harassing agents, are sometimes called nonlethal agents. There may be as high as 5% fatalities with the use of these agents.

or at a push

List of chemical warfare agents - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Choking agents Main article: Pulmonary agent

These substances are sometime referred to as pulmonary agent or lung irritants and cause injury to the lung-blood barrier resulting in Asphyxia.



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 11:24:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
have you seen this?

supposedly a video of Khadafi fleeing

http://www.20min.ch/ro/news/monde/story/La-video-de-la-fuite-de-Kadhafi--21755948

by stevesim on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 10:55:56 AM EST
CNN just announced that Ghadaffi  will be speaking live on TV shortly

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 11:05:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nicholas Kristof (NickKristof) on Twitter
The Arab leader who handled protests most wisely is King Mohammed of #Morocco. He treated them as a sign of progress.


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 11:05:48 AM EST
Still, five people were killed. The Moroccan government will have to handle that with exquisite care.

Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 11:15:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And then the king sent out his cops.

Morocco Protest Photo, Morocco Protest Pictures, Stills, Protester is arrested in

Morocco Protest Pictures & Photos

Protester is arrested in Marrakech during one of a string of nationwide protests that brought thousands to the streets across ...more »

Protester is arrested in Marrakech during one of a string of nationwide protests that brought thousands to the streets across Morocco on Sunday, Feb. 20, 2011, in an effort to push for greater democracy and constitutional reform. Protesters in Morocco and other Arab nations may also be wary as they watch Tunisia and Egypt grapple with the challenges of building a new system, and maintaining order, after breaking free of autocrats. (AP Photo / Tarik Najmaoui)



Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 01:30:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
BBC News - Egypt requests freeze on Hosni Mubarak's foreign assets

Egypt's top prosecutor has requested the freezing of the foreign assets of Hosni Mubarak, 10 days after the president stood down amid mass rallies.

Prosecutor General Abdel Magid Mahmud asked the Egyptian foreign minister to contact other nations on the issue.

He said the freeze would apply to Mr Mubarak, his wife, his two sons and two daughters-in-law.

Mr Mubarak is widely thought to have amassed a fortune during his nearly 30-year stay in power.

Many protesters and anti-corruption campaigners have been pressing prosecutors to open an investigation into the Mubarak family's assets, put at anywhere from $1bn to $70bn (£616m - £43bn).



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 11:07:58 AM EST
Libyan Justice minister reported to have resigned and joined protesters.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 11:15:07 AM EST
AJELive (AJELive) on Twitter
#Libya justice minister has resigned over the deadly use of force against protesters.. http://bit.ly/gEBnqK #Feb17


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 11:15:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
maltastar.com
Two jet fighters, believed to be Libyan Air Force Mirage jets, have landed at MIA earlier this afternoon. Shortly before the jet fighters landed, two helicopters touched down at MIA. Maltastar.com was in no position to confirm what was the nature of the visit. Unconfirmed sources claim that Libyan elite were on board the jets and helicopters

The persons who were on board are being held for further investigation.

Initial reports suggested that the èassengers were French nationals working for oil companies who evaquated from Tripoli.


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 11:34:43 AM EST
Andy Carvin (acarvin) on Twitter
AJE: Reports of huge march in Tripoli, live ammo and aircraft weaponry used against them. NOT CONFIRMED, but horrifying if true. #libya


Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 11:35:41 AM EST
Andy Carvin (acarvin) on Twitter
  1. ShababLibya Eye witness: tripoli is witnessing a 'bloodbath' #feb17 #libys 4 minutes ago via Twitter for BlackBerry® Retweeted by acarvin and 53 others
    • You getting this from AlJaz or indy sources? RT @Tripolitanian: Air strikes across #Tripoli #Libya


    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 11:38:21 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    BBC News - Middle East and North Africa unrest
    1636: A senior source in Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez's government denies Libya's Col Gaddafi is coming to Venezuela, Reuters further reports.


    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 11:51:19 AM EST
    Andy Carvin (acarvin) on Twitter
    Libyan4life Aljazeera Arabic reports that the London Ambassador of #Libya resigns.


    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 12:00:02 PM EST
    Andy Carvin (acarvin) on Twitter
    AJE: landlines in and out of Libya were just cut. Can anyone confirm????? #libya


    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 12:01:17 PM EST
    Tony Parsons (TonyParsonsUK) on Twitter
    If Tony Blair brings much more peace to the Middle East, there will be nobody left alive.


    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 12:14:02 PM EST
    Atomic Spin (atomic_spin) on Twitter
    BBC & al-Jazeera are now saying military aircraft are attacking protestors in #Libya.


    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 12:14:51 PM EST
    Italian news sources refer that the Libyan air force has been firing on demonstrators in Tripoli which number to the hundreds of thousands. All telephone and cellphones have been cut off as off 17:30 local time (an hour ago). The total cut off of communications bodes badly for Tripoli.

    The demonstrators are now being called terrorists by the regime.  

    Foreign militia have been seen arriving in Tripoli airport this afternoon.

    Ban Ki-moon spoke at length with Gadaffi this afternoon exorting him to stop firing on demonstrators.

    Gadaffi is reportedly still in Libya. Chavez has denied that Gadaffi has sought refuge in Venezuela.

    by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 12:25:27 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    In the past the pilots were East German. I wonder if in all these years Gadaffi ever trusted to create an all-Libyan pilot corps.

    Two migs fled today to Malta with four Libyan pilots aboard.

    by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 12:30:21 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Seeing reports that mention Italian mercenary pilots.

    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 12:38:10 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Hard to believe. Where?
    by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 12:43:38 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    it was just in a couple of random tweets, seemed unbelievable to me too

    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 03:00:43 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    well at least libya doesn't have much tourism industry to suffer the loss of.

    france 24 shows many fleeing libya on foot across the tunisian border.

    also that the bombings seemed random...

    it's be cool to have an animation map of all these countries catching the changewave.

    has the planet ever seen such a mass peeling away of bullshit in such a brief period?

    and it still has shown no sign whatsoever of peaking.

    too much bunga bunga?

    'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

    by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 02:50:32 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Even with experienced pilots and Air-Ground fire direction control, which the regime doesn't have, tactical bombing of urban areas is an exercise in viciousness.  

    The regime has entered the same Twilight Zone Götterdämmerung the Nazis did under Hitler.

    She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

    by ATinNM on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 02:56:59 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Depends on how you look at it. Country by country...perhaps not. But little chiefs who were allowed to twiddle in their little playgrounds until the empire that they governed for fell?

    That would be a different answer, yes?

    Never underestimate their intelligence, always underestimate their knowledge.

    Frank Delaney ~ Ireland

    by siegestate (siegestate or beyondwarispeace.com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:19:15 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    melo:
    has the planet ever seen such a mass peeling away of bullshit in such a brief period?

    I am reminded of both 1989 and 1848 (for somewhat different reasons).

    Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

    by A swedish kind of death on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:28:56 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    1848 seems to me the better point of comparison. 1989 was more of a collapse-of-empire style thing, similar to the British and French losing direct control of their colonies.

    1968 might also be a proper good year to compare and contrast with. The viciousness is greater, but other than that there are similarities.

    - Jake

    Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

    by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 05:08:29 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Yes, the geopolitical context is more 1848, but the style and programs more 1989. The strong nationalist component of 1848 is missing.

    1968 is also interesting. First thing that strikes me is the expansion of higher education, that thus led to a generation with a record high (for its time) unemployed educated group.

    Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

    by A swedish kind of death on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 02:44:19 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    You mean 1989 didn't have a strong nationalist flavour? Now, I'll admit that I have not studied those uprisings in minute detail. But judging by what slithered out of the wreckage of the Soviet empire it would surprise me if there wasn't a strong nationalist undercurrent at play there as well.

    Also, we don't know yet what precise mix of leftists and rightists, nationalists and pan-Arabists, secularists and sectarians is involved in the current crop of uprisings. And it's likely to be a different mix in different countries.

    - Jake

    Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

    by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 02:53:44 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Good point about 1989. What I meant was that in 1848 it was not so much of an undercurrent as a principal point on equal standing with democracy. And it was a nationalism that often did not match the existing borders. The break-up of Russia did feature those though.

    What I am getting at is that if this was 1848 the Tahrir crowd would have been demanding "Mubarak out and lets get a Pan-Arab congress" or "Mubarak out and lets conquer our lost territories in Gaza". Or at least that is my impression.

    Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

    by A swedish kind of death on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 03:13:14 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I certainly see that point. But to me it still looks like a 1968 type conflict using 1848 tactics: A coalition of labour and liberal intellectuals - with varying relative strength depending on the country you are looking at. Going up against regimes that never read the 20th century playbook for how to contain popular uprisings, and therefore responded with 1848-style repression. Plus a dose of pre-modern tribal conflict thrown in for good measure, in the countries where such social units still exist in strength.

    1989 was much more of a "collapsing empire can't hang on to its tributaries" thing. In that sense, 1989 is more similar to the late '90s to early '00s anticolonial movement in Latin America.

    (Incidentally, an important reason the 1989 colonial revolts didn't feature as much squabbling over borders was probably that Europe had spent the 141 years since 1848 shedding blood, tears and treasure in the effort to create ethnically "pure" states.)

    - Jake

    Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

    by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 04:33:47 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Libya is being destroyed by an animal:

    Breaking reports that Gaddafi ordered air strikes against Benghazi as well

    Haven't seen any reports these orders were carried out.

    She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

    by ATinNM on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 03:02:02 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Air strikes were ordered by Gaddafi on Benghazi but pilots landed in the airport instead.


    She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
    by ATinNM on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 03:55:20 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Now might be a good time for one of the "powers" with aircraft carriers in the Med to give the Libyan air force a call. Planes are unsporting.
    by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 12:29:45 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Obama declared an hour and a half ago that they are studying options for appropriate action.

    Not much time left.

    by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 12:33:12 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    "devoir d'ingérence" in English?

    Good concept. It's a shame its inventor discredited it so profoundly.

    [One bizarre side-effect of having MAM as French foreign minister is that she almost manages to make Bernard Kouchner look good by comparison. Almost.]

    It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

    by eurogreen on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 12:42:58 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Duty to intervene?
    by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 12:45:12 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I suspect that the US Navy still has the coordinates of Gadaffi's various villas from back in the Reagan Admin., but they might still want to do an aerial reconnaissance in force over Tripoli and Carthage. If only.

    "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
    by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 12:39:43 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Gadaffi never sleeps in the same tent. When Reagan attacked he did luck out though. I recall one of his daughters was killed in that raid.
    by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 12:42:34 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    It was recently revealed that Craxi at the time had forewarned Gadaffi of the attack. It would be a good idea to keep this Italian government under close observation. Berlusconi has been remarkably silent today.
    by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 12:49:46 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    My point was that Gadaffi surely remembers that event and would be likely to get the message if US warplanes entered his air space or even were a planned recon just announced.

    "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
    by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 02:04:55 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Situation is too confused.  An attempted air strike against Gadaffi is as likely to hit protesters/revolutionaries as the intended target.

    Air interdiction to keep regime loyalists from flying is possible but it takes time to set it all up: get the planes ready, pilots briefed, CIC established, bases readied, get the AWAC in the air, establish logistics, etc., etc.

    She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

    by ATinNM on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 02:15:12 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Looks like we should be moving on interdiction. A few combat air patrols over Tripoli might tamp down some of the use of aircraft against protesters. There should be an AWACS within 8 or 10 hours of the nearest US airbase in Italy. Likewise for the ECM equipped aircraft. If existing staff at the nearest US airbase cannot perform command and control functions what are they there for?

    "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
    by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:03:15 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Is there any indication the political leadership is ready to order any action? That The West™ is ready and willing to play a political role in the aftermath of this, too?

    Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
    by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 01:59:43 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I'm not sure how feasible it is to operate out of Italy, or even Malta. You won't get very much time on station over Tripoli. To keep two aircraft over the city at all times, you might need to commit dozens of aircraft.

    An aircraft carrier would make things much simpler.

    Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

    by Starvid on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 07:47:24 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Could they operate from Tunisian airfields?

    Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
    by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 08:19:21 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I can't spot any suitable airfields. On the other hand, there are plenty of very straight highways.

    Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
    by Starvid on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 09:14:53 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Tunisian Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    There are four main bases: BizerteSidi Ahmed, Gafsa, BizerteLa Karouba and Sfax.


    Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
    by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 09:18:56 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Sfax would be the natural choice. The distance to Tripoli is 2/3 of the distance from Tripoli to Malta and half of the distance from Tripoly to Bengazi.

    Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
    by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 10:09:47 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    And those highways are absolutely stcaked with fuel. The roads in Southern Tunisia are a black market fuel centre. If you go down that way you'll see  peope with stcaks of plastic containers full of petrol, diesel and kerosene, piles 3m on a side, and you'll see one of these stacks every couple of hundred yards

    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 09:22:09 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    But not jet fuel, most likely.

    "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
    by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 09:39:27 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    but isnt parafin useable as jetfuel at a pinch?

    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 09:45:43 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I don't know. Are there cans of parafin on offer along the road side? I think kerosene is the closest thing to jet fuel that most people can usually get. But for an instant airport you probably would need something that could handle a couple of C-130s, one of which could drop off a fuel load that would keep two planes aloft for a day or two, and  an anti-aircraft battery or two for self defense. It would be easier if they could transit Tunisian or Egyptian airspace and hook in to Libya to the south, perhaps to a private airstrip.

    "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
    by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 09:16:56 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Malta is a lot closer than was The Gulf back when we were interdicting Sadam. So is Sicily where there is a US airbase, as di Gondi has pointed out. Lampadusa is even closer and it does have an airport that could possibly support F-16s, certainly Harriers. Hawkeyes could provide AWAC out of Sicily, though it would leave a carrier short. Same for ECM aircraft and refueling craft, either from the air force or navy.

    "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
    by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 09:38:01 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    That would be France or Italy.

    The US 6th Fleet doesn't have an Aircraft Carrier.  (Does have an amphibious assault ship that people confuse with with an air craft carrier.)  The Fleet is capable of air defense but not capable of achieving air superiority.

    She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

    by ATinNM on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 12:52:24 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    They don't need it. Italy is the largest US aircraft carrier in the world. Sigonella is just a few minutes away from Tripoli.
    by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 12:57:47 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Yup.

    It's that people think anything with a flat-top, flight deck, is an aircraft carrier ... and it ain't so.

    She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

    by ATinNM on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 01:04:33 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Dan Hodges (DPJHodges) on Twitter
    On a linked theme, as the Middle East goes up in flames, is now the best time to be caught with aircraft carriers but no aircraft?


    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 01:58:05 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Well, the assault ships do or can support Harriers.

    "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
    by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 02:06:11 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    What are the closest NATO air bases to Tripoli?

    Any in Sicily, or around Naples?

    Crete? Greece? Corsica?

    Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman

    by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 12:59:21 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Sigonella and Naples.
    by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 01:12:37 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    There was a US carrier in the eastern med recently.

    Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
    by Starvid on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 01:32:54 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    The Enterprise was doing NATO exercises earlier this month.  Don't know if it is still in the Med.

    She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
    by ATinNM on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 01:47:35 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Well a few days ago she was in the Gulf of Aden, but that report is about 4 days old (was just looking)

    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 01:56:27 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    The Charles de Gaulle docked in Toulon today, back from a tour of Af/Pak-related duty.
    by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 03:59:13 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Would Sarkozy and MAM interdict their friends?

    "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
    by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:06:20 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Libya shockwaves hit Italian businesses - Yahoo! News

    MILAN (AFP) - Shockwaves from the unrest in Libya on Monday hit its former colonial overlord Italy -- a top foreign investor in Libya and a country in which the North African state has also invested billions.

    Libya's sovereign wealth fund and veteran ruler Moamer Kadhafi's family own stakes in Italy's biggest bank UniCredit, defence and industry giant Finmeccanica, as well as in the first-division Juventus football club.

    Shares in UniCredit plunged 5.75 percent by close of trading in Milan.



    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 12:39:11 PM EST
    Recall UniCredit boss resigns over Libyan row | Business | guardian.co.uk (22 September 2010)
    Alessandro Profumo, one of the more enterprising figures in the conservative world of Italian finance, stepped down at an extraordinary board meeting last night and will be replaced, temporarily, by the bank's chairman, Dieter Rampl. The McKinsey-trained banker has been heavily criticised recently for his readiness to see Libyan state bodies increase their combined stakes in the bank to almost 7.5% - as the Italian bank hardest hit by the credit crunch scrambled for funds.

    Major shareholders have reportedly been concerned by Profumo's fundraising strategy and an anaemic dividend policy. The Libyan Central Bank is now UniCredit's third-largest shareholder and Libya's sovereign wealth fund its eighth-biggest.

    Umberto Bossi's populist Northern League movement has a say in the bank's affairs with its 4.6% holding through Fondazione Cariverona, a non-profit foundation based in Verona. Foundations own around 11% of UniCredit, and Profumo's courting of Libyan investment has been interpreted as an attempt to limit the foundations' influence.



    Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
    by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 12:52:06 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Andy Carvin (acarvin) on Twitter
    Shhh527 HRW on AJE: Last phone call to Tripoli 2 hrs ago. Can't connect now. #libya


    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 12:40:31 PM EST
    The state of maximum alert has been declared on Italian military bases. Aircrafts are being displaced to southern bases.

    The Libyan delegation to the UN has requested action by the UN against the pending bloodbath. They have called for a no-fly zone over Libya.

    by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 12:40:51 PM EST
    de Gondi:
    The Libyan delegation to the UN has requested action by the UN against the pending bloodbath.
    Is the Security Council meeting?

    Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
    by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 12:47:41 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Would be very surprised if there wasn't an aircraft carrier somewhere close

    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 12:49:00 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    A no fly zone is rather limiting on a dictators escape possibilities.

    Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
    by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 12:51:25 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    The Italian Minister of Defense denied the state of maximum alert but acknowledged that the level had been heightened.
    by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 12:54:07 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    CNN Breaking News (cnnbrk) on Twitter
    1. #Libya deputy ambassador to U.N. says Gadhafi has declared war on Libyan people, is committing genocide. http://on.cnn.com/emQH5v 5 minutes ago via web
      • U.S. State Dept. orders family members of U.S. Embassy employees, non-emergency personnel to leave Libya. http://on.cnn.com/emQH5v


      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 12:46:39 PM EST
      Christian DeFeo (doctorcdf) on Twitter
      BiancaJagger REMEMBER THIS ARTICLE IN THE DAILY MAIL: Tony Blair our very special adviser by dictator Gaddafi's son http://ow.ly/40gdf


      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 01:02:37 PM EST
      Twitter: Apache helicopters firing on crowd in Misurata east of Tripoli.

      Sit-in in front of parliament against Italy- Libya treaty this evening in Rome.

      by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 01:14:53 PM EST
      Apaches? I know they have Hinds

      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 01:24:30 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      source?
      by stevesim on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 01:48:48 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      Italian report from BBC twitter. I've not seen the original BBC twitter. There is a twitter page on la Repubblica.
      by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 01:52:19 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      la Repubblica twitter page, mostly in Arabic.
      by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 01:59:44 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      Not noticed that on any BBC twitter feed, but not been watching everything

      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 02:00:38 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      Aint no Apaches in Libya, must be Hinds.

      Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
      by Starvid on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 01:33:52 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      The regime used helicopters against protesters in Benghazi, Tobruk, Darna, and other cities on Friday (IIRC) and over the weekend.  

      The regime has been throwing everything in their arsenal against the revolutionaries and it hasn't worked.  They are still following the play book in Tripoli.  Protester casualties have been high but it's not stopping them.  

      She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

      by ATinNM on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 01:55:22 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
         Libyan Navy Bombs Residential Areas


      Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
      by Starvid on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 02:02:57 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      Ack.

      That's the act of a sociopath, lashing out at those who dare to stand-up to him.

      Militarily it's pointless.
       

      She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

      by ATinNM on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 02:35:41 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      RT @Anonymoosh: Al Jazeera: Army officers report that Gaddafi said: "I was the one who created Libya, and I will be the one to destroy it"


      She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
      by ATinNM on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 02:46:58 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      Italian airbases in Trapani and Bari confirmed on maximum alert. The minister of defense as usual doesn't know what he's talking about.

      According to the blogger Hassan Al Jahmi, one of the leaders of the revolt, there is a bloodbath in Tripoli but with the exception of Tripoli and Sirte, Gadaffi's hometown, all of Libya has been liberated.

      by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 01:21:19 PM EST
      Declaring a "no fly" zone over Libya for Libyan aircraft could be justified on the basis that it is required for the safe evacuation by air of foreign nationals, with said evacuation taking some time.

      "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
      by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 02:14:40 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      Krishnan Guru-Murthy (krishgm) on Twitter
      The Libyan Embassy in London has just seen its flag taken down and replaced by the protesters' flag


      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 01:25:11 PM EST
      BBC Global News (BBCWorld) on Twitter
      Nine people working at the Libyan embassy in London join demonstrators protesting against Col Gaddafi outside


      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 01:45:00 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      Reported fighting west of Tripoli between loyalist army units and army units that have passed over to the uprising.

      The Libyan pilots that landed in Malta have requested political asylum, asserting that they prefered to flee rather than follow orders to fire on demonstrators.

      by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 01:44:12 PM EST
      Adel Darwish (AdelDarwish) on Twitter
      @IanDunt only 69 years ago it was varied provinces not one Libya. But the thought of having 3 or 4 Gafdafis instead of one is not attractive

      Adel Darwish (AdelDarwish) on Twitter

      Libya's largest tribe (wagafahhah ) has switched side against Gaddafi; if his tribe fights it will be rerun of 1936 tribal war in Libya


      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 01:49:12 PM EST
      Report this morning was that the Gadaffi tribe was not supporting him any longer but most everything out of Libya is hard to verify or confirm.

      It would be good news if so. And it would make sense as his tribe would not want to be on the receiving end of retaliation once it's realized Gadaffi is on his way out.

      by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 01:55:07 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      Tweet:

      Breaking: Sabha tribes are on the move towards Tripoli


      She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
      by ATinNM on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 02:00:35 PM EST
      Tweet:

      Reports that aid convoys that crossed into #Libya from #Egypt has reached Tobruq amid celebrations

      YES!

      Means the coast road from Egypt/Libyan border is open (89 miles.)  From Tobruk to Benghazi is 278/448 (miles/kilometers) or (about) 6 hours.  

      She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

      by ATinNM on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 02:09:14 PM EST
      أبو كار (Sarahcarr) on Twitter
      Egy army has set up 2 field hospitals on border with Libya, camps to receive Egyptians (and Libyans) & is providing transport to Cairo contd


      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 02:13:19 PM EST
      Is the border open for journalists?

      She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
      by ATinNM on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 02:17:23 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      Well there are stories of Journos flying into Egypt and Tunisia, attempts to enter will happen in the next few days I would think if the situation seems ok enough on the ground when they get there.

      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 02:21:05 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      katherine maher (krmaher) on Twitter
      As if statutory rape, prostitution, & corruption weren't enough, tacit support of Qaddafi makes Berlusconi the West's most vile leader


      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 02:18:23 PM EST
      Reports that Libya has closed all airports, unconfirmed as yet

      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 02:23:00 PM EST
      FT noted that oil cos have private airstrips in the desert


      Oil groups prepare to close down in Libya

      Executives asked not to be named as their companies were still in the process of evacuating staff. The oil fields in the south of the country run by international firms have their own airstrips. Until the last staffer is pulled out of the country, a process which could take hours or a few days, companies planned to keep production up.

      "But the last man will switch off the button," an executive said.




      Wind power
      by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 02:54:01 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      Unfortunately, turning back on production will involve a lot more than simply turning that switch back on.

      "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
      by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:09:06 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      Reports that Tauregs have occupied the general headquarters of oil fields in Ubari.
      by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:09:54 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      @Marwabenhalim: The medical supplies convoy, 5 ambulances and 30 doctors has left this evening at 6 o'clock from Cairo

      This is VASTLY more important than gearing-up for military intervention.  There are thousands of people requiring medical care and the US 6th Fleet and other naval forces could be deployed to provide it.

      She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

      by ATinNM on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 02:51:42 PM EST
      The two are hardly mutually exclusive. Fighter jets aren't worth jack all for carrying emergency supplies (and the cargo planes are going to need escorts anyway if we're sending them into that mess).

      - Jake

      Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

      by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 05:27:26 AM EST
      [ Parent ]
      BBC news just said that Berlusconi has condemned the attacks on civilians

      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 03:02:37 PM EST
      Andy Carvin (acarvin) on Twitter
      Berlusconi calls attacks on protesters "unacceptable," EU should prevent it from becoming civil war. #libya


      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 03:07:48 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      BungaBunga-Baby is two days out of touch.

      There's no substantial pro-Gadaffi group left in Libya.  Only mercenaries, die-hards, and sociopaths versus 95% of Libyan population.  

      She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

      by ATinNM on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 03:11:47 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      Berlusconi's full declaration took up the points that Frattini sought to include in the EU declaration. He eventually relented.

      Berlusconi wanted the EU to formulate a declaration in favour of the territorial integrity of Libya, ostensably against the prospects of an Islamic Emirate of East Libya.

      Off hand I don't know if Berlusconi has business stakes in East Libya. The Friendship Treaty provides for investments of five billion euro in Libya over the next 20 years which would likely favour Italian businesses more than Libyan. There was also to be created a sort of tax-free zone, which sounded similar to a fiscal paradise, for business investments. I don't recall the exact location of this zone or if it had been established in its entirety.

      Certainly it would be great to make sense of the common business interests of the troika Berlusconi-Gadaffi-Putin.

      by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 03:44:33 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      Perhaps if his legal problems get too much he's considering a move?

      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 03:46:42 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      He's got a great place in Antigua and I'm sure he can get all the minors he wants there. He'll have to ship them in eventually.
      by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 03:51:43 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      What EU declaration?

      Is the Eu doing anything other than waffle helplessly?

      Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman

      by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 02:08:27 AM EST
      [ Parent ]
      It seems the question is turning into: Which side has the most guns? (Is that English? Brain scrambled.)
      by Nomad on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 07:22:55 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      Hope this is true:

      @marwame: [Al Jazeera Arabic]: Egyptian army declares the borders between Egypt and Libya completely open now



      She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
      by ATinNM on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 03:21:09 PM EST
      Reports Tunisia and Egypt are setting up refugee camps and hospitals along their Libyan borders.

      She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
      by ATinNM on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 03:54:08 PM EST
      Libyan aircraft have landed in Bengasi after refusing to attack Bengasi. The attack was ordered to be carried out within 10 pm local time. The attack should have been underway by now.
      by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 03:55:53 PM EST
      This blip looks as if it's not confirmed yet.

      On another point the Libyan Minister of Emigration has resigned and defected.

      by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 03:59:24 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      People inside Libya and Egypt are trying to get information from the pilots now.

      She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
      by ATinNM on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:02:43 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      The blip disappeared quickly from my screen. Glad to see it showed up elswhere. Hope there's some truth in it- it would confirm a general tendance.
      by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:06:24 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      Al Jazeera English reporting Mistratah (west coast of Gulf of Sirte) being attacked by tanks backed by air attacks.

      She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
      by ATinNM on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:08:02 PM EST
      It was under attack earlier in the day. If I recall  there is a large military base there that had been abandoned.
      by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:14:52 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      There was fighting there yesterday until the revolutionaries stormed the base.  Reportedly they "appropriated" whatever arms, munitions, and other supplies that was there.  

      Libyan army was equipped with anti-air and anti-tank missiles and weapon systems.  Cannot find any information on how the Libyan Army and People's Militia units were stationed or positioned.  Regime had 7 anti-air defense Battalions stationed somewhere -- perhaps centered in and around Tripoli?  

      Usually the anti-tank missiles are assigned to ground units ... so it's probable the revolutionary forces, which include regular Army units now, have some.  Ditto for shoulder mounted anti-air missiles.  Where these weapons are, and in what quantity, is unknown.  

      She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

      by ATinNM on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:38:38 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      Reports this attack is being supported by artillery.  

      Possibly the "tanks" are self-propelled artillery?

      No reports of infantry.  

      She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

      by ATinNM on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:22:32 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      Seeing twitter reports that a leading Libyan cleric has issued a fatwah calling for anyone that can to kill Ghadaffi ...
      by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:16:38 PM EST
      Live Blog Libya Al Jazeera

      10:40pm: Yusuf Al Qardawi, a leading Sunni cleric, has just issued a fatwa on Al Jazeera Arabic, encouraging the assassination of Gaddafi.


      "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
      by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:17:54 PM EST
      Yusuf al-Qaradawi   Wiki

      Yusuf al-Qaradawi (Arabic: يوسف القرضاوي Yūsuf al-Qaraḍāwiy‎; born September 9, 1926) is an Egyptian Islamic theologian. He is best known for his program, ash-Shariah wal-Hayat ("Shariah and Life"), broadcast on Al Jazeera, which has an estimated audience of 40 million worldwide.[1] He is also well-known for IslamOnline, a popular website he helped found in 1997 and for which he now serves as chief religious scholar.[2] Al-Qaradawi has also published more than 80 books, including The Lawful and the Prohibited in Islam and Islam: The Future Civilization. He has also received eight international prizes for his contributions to Islamic scholarship,[3] and is considered one of the most influential such scholars living today.[1][4][5] Al-Qaradawi has long had a prominent role within the intellectual leadership of the Muslim Brotherhood,[6] an Egyptian political organization, but twice (in 1976 and 2004) turned down offers for the official role in the organization.[1][7] A 2008 Foreign Policy magazine poll placed al-Qaradawi at number three on its list of the top 20 public intellectuals worldwide.

      Not your run of the mill Imam.

      "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
      by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:23:08 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      Apparently the Egyptian armys facebook page is reporting that the border guards have withdrawn from the Lybian/Egyptian border, and have been replaced by Lybian Militia, but as yet they are uncertain wether they are pro rebel or pro Ghadaffi

      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:21:05 PM EST
      Andy Carvin (acarvin) on Twitter
      Reuters: Venezuela's foreign min talked to his Libyan counterpart by phone, was told Gaddafi is still in Tripoli. #libya


      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:26:29 PM EST
      Andy Carvin (acarvin) on Twitter
      Cyrenaican Ali Oujali (ambassador to United States) just now announced on AJA that he's against the killing going on in #Libya & is w/ ppl of #Libya


      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:27:28 PM EST
      It was a very detailed interview on Al Jazeera. It engrossed me. He called for a no-fly zone too but it would very difficult to impliment it off the bat as ATinNM pointed out.
      by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:45:04 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      My al-jazeera connection is up and down at the moment

      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:48:28 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      Gadaffi to address the nation according to Al Arabiya.
      by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:46:46 PM EST
      Prediction:

      "Do what I want or I'll huff and puff and blow Libya to hell and gone."

      She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

      by ATinNM on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 04:56:57 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 05:08:26 PM EST
      I'd really like to think that such a picture was from The Onion. And to think how embarrassed we in the U.S. were by Dubya Bush in a flight suit.
      by Mnemosyne on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 12:47:52 AM EST
      [ Parent ]
      No reliable information coming out of Libya.  

      She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
      by ATinNM on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 05:27:57 PM EST
      Reportd that Libyan state TV has said that the army is busy wiping out "Cells of Terror"

      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 05:35:08 PM EST
      Gaddafi's son 'will be in turmoil' says LSE professor who acted as adviser | World news | The Guardian

      Professor David Held probably knows more about the beliefs of Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, son of the Libyan leader, Muammar Gaddafi, than anyone else in Britain.

      For four years, Held was an informal academic adviser to Saif, who has warned in an address on state television that protesters in Tripoli will be eradicated if they continue their unrest.

      "Watching Saif give that speech - looking so exhausted, nervous and, frankly, terrible - was the stuff of Shakespeare and of Freud: a young man torn by a struggle between loyalty to his father and his family, and the beliefs he had come to hold for reform, democracy and the rule of law," said Held, author of books such as Restructuring Global Governance and Models of Democracy.

      Held was not Saif's tutor during his years at the LSE but the young man frequently sought out the professor for advice on his PhD, which called for greater democracy in global governance.



      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 05:37:35 PM EST
      Weird...
      The next eldest son, by his second wife Safia, is Saif al-Islam Muammar Al-Gaddafi, who was born in 1972 and is an architect. He runs a charity (GIFCA) which has been involved in negotiating freedom for hostages taken by Islamic militants, especially in the Philippines. In 2006, after sharply criticizing his father's regime, Saif Al-Islam briefly left Libya, reportedly to take on a position in banking outside of the country. He returned to Libya soon after, launching an environment-friendly initiative to teach children how they can help clean up parts of Libya. He is involved in compensation negotiations with Italy and the United States.
      Also:
      In 1994, Saif al-Islam graduated with a BSc in Engineering Science from Tripoli's Al Fateh University, gained an MBA from Vienna's IMADEC University in 2000 and PhD from London School of Economics in 2008, awarded for a thesis entitled "The Role of civil society in the democratisation of global governance institutions: from 'soft power' to collective decision-making?"[2][3] He is an architect with his own architectural agency in Tripoli - the National Engineering Service and Supplies Company.

      Saif is the president of the Libyan National Association for Drugs and Narcotics Control (DNAG). In 1997, he founded the official charity, the Gaddafi International Foundation for Charity Associations, which has intervened in various hostage situations involving Islamic militants and the crisis of the HIV trial in Libya and the resulting European Union-Libyan rapprochement. Saif also performs public relations and diplomatic roles on behalf of his father. He has been mentioned as a possible successor, though he has denied this.[4]

      Speaking in Sabha on August 20, 2008, Saif said that he would no longer involve himself in state affairs. He noted that he had previously "intervene[d] due to the absence of institutions", but said that he would no longer do so. He dismissed any potential suggestion that this decision was due to disagreement with his father, saying that they were on good terms. He also called for political reforms within the context of the Jamahiriya system and rejected the notion that he could succeed his father, saying that "this is not a farm to inherit".[5]

      According to Landon Thomas of the New York Times, he has emerged as the Western-friendly face of Libya and symbol of its hopes for reform and openness.[6]



      Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
      by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 06:43:30 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      There are pictures of him signing a cheque over from his father for £1.5 million to the LSE, Not saying that and his PhD are linked, but it wouldn't be the first time.

      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 07:25:12 PM EST
      [ Parent ]
      Seif al-Islam Gadaffi declared on TV that there have been no bombardments of civilians in either Tripoli or Bengasi with aircraft. Only military arms depots outside Tripoli have been bombed.

      Effectively without direct confirmable testimony in Libya it is hard to evaluate claims either way today.

      by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 05:40:53 PM EST
      Andy Carvin (acarvin) on Twitter
      Kahled Kaeem, Libyan Deputy FM is denying those planes in Malta are from #Libya b/c they dont have the #Libyan flag on them.......


      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 05:42:48 PM EST
      Yfrog Photo : yfrog.com/hsinkllj - Shared by JonathanHaynes
      Does the Express know something about Gaddafi that no one else does, or are those two headlines not connected?


      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 06:09:44 PM EST
      AJELive (AJELive) on Twitter
      Dozens of students & activists arrested in Zimbabwe for watching #AlJazeera's coverage of uprisings, reports New York Times


      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 06:18:44 PM EST
      AJELive (AJELive) on Twitter
      Italy FM absolutely rejects in strongest terms online rumours of Italian involvement in #Gaddafi airstrikes on civilians in #Libya


      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 06:21:28 PM EST
      AJELive (AJELive) on Twitter
      FT: Oil groups prepare to shut down operations in #Libya, price of crude rises


      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 06:22:43 PM EST
      Hossam عمو حسام (3arabawy) on Twitter
      Cer Breaking on Al Jazeera says there are ads in Nigeria and Guinea requesting mercenaries for #Libya for $2000 a day.. #Feb17


      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 06:31:29 PM EST
      Robert.Walter (RobertWalter) on Twitter
      @acarvin I am amazed how many people have 'classic' Libyan flags available. Seems many have been waiting for these days.


      Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
      by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 06:32:27 PM EST
      علي عامر الطويل (AliTweel) on Twitter
      1. excuseme #LibyanTV, WHAT THE F"@&? I bieleve the police hired those to say that to support Saif's speech, drugged youth protesters he say! 14 minutes ago via Twitter for iPhone
        • The libyan tv showing tunisians & egyptions interviewed by police, they said they r drug dealers hired by outsiders to drug the protesters!!


        Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
        by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 06:53:12 PM EST
        Martin Robbins (mjrobbins) on Twitter
        Lord Owen calling for "airforces in the region with sufficient range to reach Libya to prevent any military action against civilians."


        Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
        by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 07:01:52 PM EST
        Much awaited Ghadaffi  transmission appears to have been him sitting in the open door of a car holding a large umbrella. All he said was "I am in Tripoli, not in Venuezuala" possible suggestions that he might say more later. Apart from that there has been a 2 hour Opera on state TV of his life story.

        Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
        by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 07:13:24 PM EST
        Faisal Islam (faisalislam) on Twitter
        The Gaddafi s seem to be fixated on the words of William Hague ... Thats the second night running they have responded to him


        Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
        by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 07:15:30 PM EST
        [ Parent ]
        Quadaffi, Umbrella and Popemobile for those who think it couldnt get any more bizzare

        Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
        by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 07:21:15 PM EST
        [ Parent ]
        This isn't the Gadaffi we have all come to know.  He didn't brag, he didn't bluster, he didn't threaten the Libyans with massive immediate death.

        Wonder if he has realized he's history?

        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

        by ATinNM on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 07:42:10 PM EST
        [ Parent ]
        I was prepared for a 4 hour hero of the revolution speech, but I suppose they dont work quite as well without a cheering theatre full of acolytes and sycophants.

        Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
        by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 08:13:01 PM EST
        [ Parent ]
        Reminded me of this of last pictures of Hitler, giving out Iron Crosses as the Soviets closed in.

        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
        by ATinNM on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 09:16:58 PM EST
        [ Parent ]
        Good news!

        For a minute there I thought things were about to get weird.

        by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 07:38:47 PM EST
        [ Parent ]


        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
        by ATinNM on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 07:44:03 PM EST
        [ Parent ]
        Trying to get a handle on the Libyan Air Force.

        12 Dassault Mirage F1BD/EDMulti role fighter

        Down to 10 since the colonels who defected to Malta had them.

        Hardpoints: 1 centreline pylon, four underwing and two wingtip pylons with a capacity of 6,300 kg (13,900 lb) (practical maximum load 4,000 kg (8,800 lb)) and provisions to carry combinations of:

            * Rockets: 8× Matra rocket pods with 18× SNEB 68 mm rockets each
            * Bombs: various

        40 Su-22M3/UM-3K Ground attack

        Up to 4000 kg (8,820 lb) on ten hardpoints (three under the fixed portion of each wing, four on the fuselage sides), including free-fall bombs, rocket pods, cluster bombs, SPPU-22-01 cannon pods with traversable barrels, ECM pods, napalm tanks, and nuclear weapons.

        I doubt anyone was dumb enough to give that maniac nukes.

        3 Sukhoi Su-24 Long range bomber

        # Up to 8,000 kg (17,640 lb) ordnance on 8 hardpoints, including up to 4 × Kh-23  radio-command missiles; up to 4 × Kh-25ML  laser-guided missiles; up to 2 × Kh-28 , Kh-58 , or Kh-31P up to 3 × Kh-29L/T  laser/TV-guided missiles; up to 2 × Kh-59 'Ovod'  TV-command guided missiles, or KAB-500KR TV-guided and KAB-500L laser-guided bombs.  Unguided rocket launchers with 55 mm S-5 rockets, 80 mm S-8 rockets, or 120 mm S-13 rockets.

        Other weapon options include general-purpose bombs, external gun pods

        40 Soko J-21 Jastreb Light ground attack

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soko_J-21_Jastreb

        110 Aero L-39 Light attack/trainer

        Puny, but there is a lot of them.  

        Up to 284 kg (626 lb) of stores on two external hardpoints

        116 Soko G-2 Galeb

        Again, puny but a lot.

        Hardpoints: 4 with a capacity of 300 kg (660 lb) total

        How many of these things are operational is a good question.  Except for the Mirages all these things are Warsaw Pact era weapons.  Countering that: there is a lot of 'em, "quantity has a quality of its own," and the revolutionaries have zero air defense capability.

        Even with that, I have a hard time seeing what the point is of having the Libyan Air Force bombing Libyans.  OK, these things fly over a city, drop bombs, and land.  Then what?  Fly over a city, drop more bombs, and land.  Then what?  You can rinse, lather, repeat as long as there is fuel to fly and bombs to drop but there's no military value in this process because it doesn't impose the regime's will on the populace or battlefield, interdict logistics, or degrade the revolutionaries ability to conduct military operations (to dignify what they are doing by that phrase.)

        The only thing I can figure is Gadaffi is being a psychopathic asshole, dragging as many Libyans as he can along with him on his path to death.


        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

        by ATinNM on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 09:07:32 PM EST
        Sounds like 20 or so regime opponents with AK-47s and a couple of clips each could disable the Libyan airforce if they caught the planes on the ground and lightly guarded.

        "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
        by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 09:22:22 PM EST
        [ Parent ]
        One round each up the exhausts and ten or so across the cockpit area should do it.

        "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
        by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 09:24:30 PM EST
        [ Parent ]
        True.

        The main airbase is the Mitiga International Airport located about 7 miles west north west of Tripoli.  It was originally named the Mellaha Air Base. originally built by the Italians in 1924 took over by the by the US in 1943 and renamed Wheelus Air Base.  

        I doubt the revolutionaries have the command structure and TO to organize an attack.

        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

        by ATinNM on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 01:43:29 AM EST
        [ Parent ]
        theres another airbase at el adem  in the west, its one of the two sites where my father did his national service

        Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
        by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 05:26:32 AM EST
        [ Parent ]
        Another good question is how many pilots they have who are not going to take the opportunity to skip town if you put them in an aircraft with enough fuel to reach Tunisia, Egypt or Malta.

        - Jake

        Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

        by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 05:33:20 AM EST
        [ Parent ]
        Gaddafi's hold on Libya weakens   Al Jazeera  00:58 GMT

        Deep cracks were showing and Gaddafi seemed to be losing vital support, as Libyan government officials at home and abroad resigned, air force pilots defected and major government buildings were targeted during clashes in the capital.

        At least 61 people were killed in the capital city on Monday, witnesses told Al Jazeera. The protests appeared to be gathering momentum, with demonstrators saying they have taken control of several important towns and the city of Benghazi, to the east of Tripoli.

        ....

        With reports of large-scale military operations under way in Tripoli, a spokesperson for Ban Ki-moon said the UN chief held extensive discussions with Gaddafi on Monday, condemned the escalating violence in Libya and told him that it "must stop immediately".

        UN Council, Arab League to meet

        The UN Security Council will hold a closed-door meeting on Tuesday to discuss the crisis in Libya, diplomats said. They said the meeting, known as consultations, had been requested by Libyan deputy ambassador Ibrahim Dabbashi and would start at 1400 GMT. Dabbashi and other diplomats at Libya's mission to the UN on Monday said they sided with protesters in Libya.

        Earlier, Hamad Bin Jassim Bin Jabr Al-Thani, Qatar's prime minister and foreign minister, called for an extraordinary meeting of the Arab League to take place on Tuesday. The aim is to discuss the current crisis in Libya and to put additional "pressure" on the government, Al-Thani told Al Jazeera.



        "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
        by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 11:01:53 PM EST
        Gadhafi's Support Crumbles As Libya Protests Continue  HuPo

        CAIRO -- Deep cracks opened in Moammar Gadhafi's regime Monday, with Libyan government officials at home and abroad resigning, air force pilots defecting and a major government building ablaze after clashes in the capital of Tripoli. Protesters called for another night of defiance against the Arab world's longest-serving leader despite a crackdown.

        ....

        The heaviest fighting so far has been in the east. Security forces in Benghazi opened fire on Sunday on protesters storming police stations and government buildings. But in several instances, units of the military turned against them and sided with protesters. By Monday, protesters had claimed control of the city, overrunning its main security headquarters, called the Katiba.

        Celebrating protesters raised the flag of the country's old monarchy, toppled in 1969 by a Gadhafi-led military coup, over Benghazi's main courthouse and on tanks around the city.

        "Gadhafi needs one more push and he is gone," said Amal Roqaqie, a lawyer at the Benghazi court, saying protesters are "imposing a new reality. ... Tripoli will be our capital. We are imposing a new order and new state, a civil constitutional and with transitional government."

        In an update to this article:

        Today 4:57 PM   Reports: Libyan Officers Ask Army To Head To Tripoli, Remove Gadhafi

        SultanAlQassemi     @ SultanAlQassemi : Breaking Al Jazeera: Statement by Libyan Military Officers asks all members of the Libyan army to head to Tripoli & remove Gaddafi #Libya

        A later Sultan Al Qassemi's tweet:

        SultanAlQassemi   1. Al Manar Breaking: Political Activists: Three senior generals in the Libyan army have joined the protesters.

        If confirmed, Sultan Al Qassemi's tweets could indicate that, within a day or two we may finally have: "NO MORE MOAMMAR!"

        "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

        by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Feb 21st, 2011 at 11:58:58 PM EST
        the Arab world's longest-serving leader

        That should be "longest-selfserving"...

        Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman

        by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 02:19:44 AM EST
        [ Parent ]
        Robert Fisk eviscerates Gadaffi.

        Cruel. Vainglorious. Steeped in blood. And now, surely, after more than four decades of terror and oppression, on his way out?

        A taste:

        So even the old, paranoid, crazed fox of Libya - the pallid, infantile, droop-cheeked dictator from Sirte, owner of his own female praetorian guard, author of the preposterous Green Book, who once announced he would ride to a Non-Aligned Movement summit in Belgrade on his white charger - is going to ground.



        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
        by ATinNM on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 01:51:22 AM EST
        Another taste
        And if what we are witnessing is a true revolution in Libya, then we shall soon be able - unless the Western embassy flunkies get there first for a spot of serious, desperate looting - to rifle through the Tripoli files and read the Libyan version of Lockerbie and the 1989 UTA Flight 722 plane bombing; and of the Berlin disco bombings, for which a host of Arab civilians and Gaddafi's own adopted daughter were killed in America's 1986 revenge raids; and of his IRA arms supplies and of his assassination of opponents at home and abroad, and of the murder of a British policewoman, and of his invasion of Chad and the deals with British oil magnates; and (woe betide us all at this point) of the truth behind the grotesque deportation of the soon-to-expire al-Megrahi, the supposed Lockerbie bomber too ill to die, who may, even now, reveal some secrets which the Fox of Libya - along with Gordon Brown and the Attorney General for Scotland, for all are equal on the Gaddafi world stage - would rather we didn't know about.

        And who knows what the Green Book Archives - and please, O insurgents of Libya, do NOT in thy righteous anger burn these priceless documents - will tell us about Lord Blair's supine visit to this hideous old man; an addled figure whose "statesmanlike" gesture (the words, of course, come from that old Marxist fraud Jack Straw, when the author of Escape to Hell promised to hand over the nuclear nick-nacks which his scientists had signally failed to turn into a bomb) allowed our own faith-based Leader to claim that, had we not smitten the Saddamites with our justified anger because of their own non-existent weapons of mass destruction, Libya, too, would have joined the Axis of Evil.

        by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 02:40:23 AM EST
        [ Parent ]
        In Eastern Libya.

        "Your passports please," said the young man in civilian clothing toting an AK-47 at the Libyan border.

        "For what?" responded our driver, Saleh, a burly, bearded man who had picked us up just moments before. "There is no government. What is the point?" He pulled away with a dismissive laugh.



        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
        by ATinNM on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 02:08:50 AM EST
        Letter from Tripoli: an eyewitness account

        The Libyan army is one of the poorest and most neglected security sector in the government. They are poorly fed , equipped, trained and payed. They are mostly ceremonial and Qaddafi does not trust them. So what we have here are private battalions with each of his sons owning the one named for him. So for example his son Khamees has a battalion belonging to him calling it "Kateebit Khamees." Each is placed in private super huge barracks situated strategically around Tripoli for situations like these. These battalions are well-equipped, trained and paid and are extremely loyal not to the country but to the leader of their battalion.

        So to answer your question the regular army is non-compliant and has mostly sided with the people. Remember they are poorly-equipped and so can be of only limited help. However, the battalions belonging to the regime itself are very much in the fight and are killing people wholesale. Still their numbers are not so great to cover this huge country so it seems they are complemented by mercenaries.



        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
        by ATinNM on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 02:24:06 AM EST

        Yesterday Saif al Islam gave the Libyans 48 hours to think it over. Well things picked up pace  less than three hours after his announcement.


        "Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anas Nin
        by Crazy Horse on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 03:03:09 AM EST
        [ Parent ]
        Al Jazeera reporting the Egyptian government has said it holds the Libyan government personally responsible for the safety of the one million Egyptian citizens living in Libya.

        This is the strongest statement issued by any government or quasi-government entity, e.g., the UN.  

        She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

        by ATinNM on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 03:16:58 AM EST
        That's a million among just six million Libyans...

        Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
        by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 03:32:02 AM EST
        [ Parent ]
        almost 6.5 million

        Population:

        6,461,454
        country comparison to the world: 101
        note: includes 166,510 non-nationals (July 2010 est.)

        https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ly.html

        source

        by stevesim on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 04:49:48 AM EST
        [ Parent ]
        Yeah, well, call it one significant digit from Libya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
        Population
         -  2010 estimate 6,420,000[1] (105th)
         -  2006 census 5,670,6881 


        Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman
        by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 05:10:02 AM EST
        [ Parent ]
        wikipedia is inaccurate.  I can easily change the values myself if I so wanted.
        by stevesim on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 05:12:35 AM EST
        [ Parent ]
        And the CIA is reliable, I guess.

        You would vandalize the commons just to make a point?

        Keynesianism is intellectually hard, as evidenced by the inability of many trained economists to get it - Paul Krugman

        by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 05:16:47 AM EST
        [ Parent ]
        not usually.  but they're ok when it comes to counting. ;-)
        by stevesim on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 05:31:15 AM EST
        [ Parent ]
        Reference [1} in the Wikipedia article is to the 2008 revision of a document published in 2009. While I suppose they could try to guess the 2010 population, the actual figure comes from a table labeled
        TOTAL POPULATION BY SEX IN 2009
        by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 at 05:27:35 AM EST
        [ Parent ]


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