Libya

by ATinNM Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 07:20:37 PM EST

I imagine things are going to heat-up in Libya so ...

A place to talk.

Libya | 322 comments (322 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Reports of protesters hitting the streets in Tripoli.

Their courage is unimaginable.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 07:32:26 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Wow, and we thought Gaddafi had beaten them down.

Of course, the troops are all getting ready to lay siege to Benghazi...

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 07:33:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

and then invade Egypt, the US, and Mars.

(The latter to protect the Libyan people from an invasion of Invisible Lizard People.)

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 07:37:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 3)

Mars, bitches!

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 07:38:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 2)

Guardian reporting:

A source at UN headquarters in New York said military forces could be deployed "within hours" of a new security council resolution calling for states to protect civilians by halting attacks by Muammar Gaddafi's forces by air, land and sea.
The resolution would impose a no-fly zone over Libya - but a no-fly zone was no longer enough, the source said. "The resolution authorises air strikes against tank columns advancing on Benghazi or engaging naval ships bombarding Benghazi," he said.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 07:35:45 PM EST

Re: Libya (4.00 / 3)

Gaddafi has threatened to "get crazy," according to the Guardian.

I don't even know how to respond.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 07:36:31 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

The mind.

It boggles.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 07:40:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Can we expect a dance routine posted on YouTube?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 07:44:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

In a cowboy hat?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 07:48:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

please not just a cowboy hat.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 07:53:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 9)

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 07:54:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Drew:

Gaddafi has threatened to "get crazy," I don't even know how to respond.

Simple. To kill a snake you cut off the head.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 09:29:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Guardian has a precis of the resolution here

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 07:46:48 PM EST

Re: Libya (4.00 / 3)

"Humanitarian Aid" can be shipped into the liberated areas.

No soldiers will be allowed "on the ground" in Libya.

From what I can gather the Transitional National Council has got everything they wanted.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 07:55:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 2)

Egypt Said to Arm Libya Rebels

CAIRO--Egypt's military has begun shipping arms over the border to Libyan rebels with Washington's knowledge, U.S. and Libyan rebel officials said.
The shipments--mostly small arms such as assault rifles and ammunition--appear to be the first confirmed case of an outside government arming the rebel fighters.

Now they need to up the ante with shipments of anti-aircraft missiles, anti-tank missiles, artillery, armor, and logistic support.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 07:50:42 PM EST

Re: Libya (4.00 / 4)

And then we have a nice big war, and then the arms remain ... in whose hands? I can't help feeling unueasy about this.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 04:59:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Al jazeera is showing a split screen:

In Benghazi there are tens of thousands celebrating the revolution.

In Tripoli a room of pro-regime supporters.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 07:53:22 PM EST

Blame Canada (none / 1)

CBC News has learned Canada will contribute six fighter jets to the UN effort in #Libya.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 07:59:23 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Feb17: the regime is shooting protesters in Benghazi

Mar17: UN imposed NFZ and civilians are to be protected "by any means necessary."

The pace is unbelievable.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 08:06:59 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 1)

One week to "talking about" a UN resolution to an actual resolution is also mind-boggling.

International diplomacy just doesn't move that fast.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 08:08:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Somehow it seemed that international diplomacy was going to be too little, too late.

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 08:11:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 5)

I'm shocked. I truly am. I expected them to dick around for at least a month before starting discussions to establish the agenda to discuss the agenda for the meeting to talk about what they need to talk about.

If the League of Nations had acted like this Spain would have never had that fuckhead Franco.

AND the world might have escaped WW2.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 08:16:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 4)

If Spain had just had oil .... :)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 08:18:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 4)

Does:

count?

:-)

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 08:21:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 7)

Careful. Remember McCain thought Zappy was a dictator, and that Spain was in Latin America (where they have oil).

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 08:25:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Blockade the government and send aid to the rebels?

I thought that was what the League of Nations did...

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 05:25:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 5)

And Nicholas Sarkozy is apparently the best hope the world has for leadership.

We are so fucked.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 08:14:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 5)

HEY!

If Sarkozy pushed this through ... then good on him.

I am stoked. I really am. For the first time in ... god, I don't know how long ... the goddamn "international community" through the UN is actually acting. And BEFORE massive genocide has occurred. And, let's face it, if asshole had managed to retake Benghazi the death toll would have been horrendous.

This takes me back to when I was dumbass enough to think the UN was a force for justice.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 08:20:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 3)

Completely agree.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 08:24:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

I wonder what China got in exchange for its abstention.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 05:01:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 2)

The privilege of owning more US debt...

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 12:22:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Think that some day they may cash it in exchange for Taiwan?

_{aspiring to genteel poverty}

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 06:18:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 2)

I am not convinced that the rulers care about Libyan lives. They might do the right thing for the wrong reasons, but they might as well do the wrong thing for the wrong reasons. If seperatism starts being promoted, I for one will suspect that the Libyan rebellion will be the prelude to the Libyan civil war, which is going to be an example as to what happens in rebellions.

And in other news, Saudi troops help defeat rebellion in Bahrain.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 05:29:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 3)

Al Jazeera reporter:

The people of Benghazi think they now they are going to win.

In the last few days we've seen a re-organization of the revolutionary forces. 8,000 men have defected with heavy weapons. Weapons coming through from Egypt and everywhere else will make all the difference.

Payback time you fucking murderous mercenary scum-bastards.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 08:12:48 PM EST

"elsewhere" (4.00 / 4)

apparently includes France - the Canard Enchainé says that French secret services delivered heavy artillery (105mm cannons) and weapons to Benghazi in the past 10 days.

Wind power

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 04:11:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Al Jazeera reporting:

NATO has been conducting surveillance and even radio intelligence operations against the regime's military forces.

At the urging/leadership of the US.

OK, I don't like Obama. But kudos to him. I can easily grasp what would have happened under a GOP presidency.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 08:31:59 PM EST

Re: Libya (4.00 / 2)

I think most of the reason the US has been pretty quiet is due to the US not wanting to appear to be the leader, since we're a bit unpopular in that part of the world.

Better than France take the lead.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 08:39:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 2)

Rather, better THAT France take the lead.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 08:42:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 2)

Going AFC.

BRB to bring you breaking news from the ATinNM News Network.

(Try and survive until then.)

:-)

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 08:42:10 PM EST

Re: Libya (4.00 / 3)

Operations starting within hours from France and Britain:

In Britain, a lawmaker with knowledge of defense matters confirmed that British forces were on stand by for air strikes and could be mobilised as soon as Thursday night. The lawmaker declined to be named because the Defense Ministry has not issued official confirmation.
French Prime Minister Francois Fillon told France-2 Television that if the resolution was approved France would support military action against Gadhafi within a matter of hours.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 08:44:49 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Just in time, too, apparently. Guardian says Gaddafi is moving on Benghazi.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 08:47:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Lugar: No-fly zone requires declaration of war - By Josh Rogin | The Cable

The top Republican on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee argued against implementing a no-fly zone over Libya on Thursday, and also said that Congress must pass a formal declaration of war if the Obama administration decides to take that step.
"Clearly, the United States should be engaged with allies on how to oppose the Qaddafi regime and support the aspirations of the Libyan people," said Sen. Richard Lugar (R-IN) at the start of the committee's Thursday morning hearing on the Middle East. "But given the costs of a no-fly zone, the risks that our involvement would escalate, the uncertain reception in the Arab street of any American intervention in an Arab country, the potential for civilian deaths, the unpredictability of the endgame in a civil war, the strains on our military, and other factors, I am doubtful that U.S. interests would be served by imposing a no-fly zone over Libya."

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 08:47:20 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 1)

It would appear that Richard Lugar does not remember what led to the Korean intervention. The key here was that Russia and China were prepared to abstain. Gadaffi is now officially fucked. His forces can and will be ripped to shreds from the air and the rebels will quickly recapture all they have lost and then all that will be left is Tripoli. I just hope that no A-10s with "depleted uranium penetrators" are used.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 09:41:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

And the Egyptian Air Force is free to get some valuable combat training under UN auspices.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 09:56:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

I also hope that they won't try the decapitation strategy, and kill lots of civilians in the process.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 05:04:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Best done up close and personal by Libyans in the traditional Arab manner with the knife carried in the waist sash.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 09:18:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

I'd prefer courts and truth commissions.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 10:13:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

If possible, I agree. Getting him out of power is a must. And one could not blame the Libyan people for preferring him dead to having him gone but using his ill gotten gains to plot comebacks. If he is dead he cannot do that. I don't see any reason to expect that he has a sufficient regard for the truth that any truth commission would be anything but a game for him. Courts might be the best way to deal with his sons and remaining supporters.

The method I suggested is a traditional method and would be immediately recognized and accepted as such by the Libyan people, especially if performed by a tribal elder or leader. It comes from T.E. Laurence, who did know the traditional Arab mind rather well.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 05:51:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Abstainers, with some editorialising from the Independent:

UN orders air strikes against Gaddafi - World Politics, World - The Independent

The abstainers
Brazil Has a long history of supporting pariah states.
India Like Germany and Brazil, has no veto on Security Council. Its abstention came even as the US championed its promotion to permanent membership.
China Usually abstains when it disapproves of a resolution, sparing its veto for issues of direct strategic interest. Its authoritarian government is concerned about setting precedents for interfering in a sovereign state.
Germany Outspoken critic of the UK-French plans for a no-fly zone, saying it did not want to get sucked into a war.
Russia Has its own internal problems, including in Caucasus. Unwilling to get involved in other countries' affairs.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 05:11:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

In other words, the BRIC plus Germany, which means all the second-tier powers vying for permanent member status abstained, as well as Russia and China.

Doesn't bode well for the multipolar world.

Then again, based on past experience, The West^TM could be doing the right thing for the wrong reasons, and could also botch it.

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 05:23:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

For the wrong reasons? (none / 1)

Which reasons would those be?

My instinct is that they are doing it primarily under pressure of public opinion. Those who are sticking out their chins and their chests brashly (not naming names...) are doing it to gain popularity, to be sure.

International public opinion is a good reason. (In this case, at least.)

I don't believe they are doing it primarily for access to energy, because nothing the rebel leaders could promise now would be enforceable.

_{It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II}

by eurogreen on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 05:42:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: For the wrong reasons? (none / 1)

eurogreen:

I don't believe they are doing it primarily for access to energy, because nothing the rebel leaders could promise now would be enforceable.

But that doesn't prevent voices from the ends of the political spectrum and the "global South", as well as Gaddafi, from claiming that this is all about the oil.

In the case of the UK, it could be trying scratch the Lockerbie itch, and so on...

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 06:00:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: For the wrong reasons? (4.00 / 2)

I don't believe they are doing it primarily for access to energy, because nothing the rebel leaders could promise now would be enforceable.

If anything, I think access to energy might explain the reluctance to act to some degree. Gaddafi winning would likely be better for that anyway. By going for the NFZ and airstrikes, we're pretty much guaranteeing that the oil fields are going to be offline for the foreseeable future.

Like Mig says, the argument will undoubtedly be made by Gaddafi and others, but in this case I don't think it's terribly convincing, particularly as the rebels asked us to do this and enjoy a lot more popularity in the Middle East/North Africa than Gaddafi.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 06:57:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: For the wrong reasons? (4.00 / 2)

eurogreen:

Which reasons would those be?

The autocrats in the Arab League is going to sign off on this tomorrow as I understand. What are they being promised? A blind eye as they strike down their own rebellions?

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 05:39:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I've got to go to bed now (none / 1)

before the bombing starts.
Otherwise I never will.

A great day.

_{It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II}

by eurogreen on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 08:49:16 PM EST

Re: Libya (4.00 / 2)

Libya finally forces Barack Obama's hand Simon Tisdall, Guardian

Obama finally made his mind up. The US would intervene to stop him. And there would be no half measures. All steps short of boots on the ground, as the US under-secretary of state William Burns put it are now urgently contemplated, with a view to immediate implementation.
That means possible, imminent air strikes as well as an air exclusion zone. It means direct head-on combat with Libya's air force, if it chooses to fight. It means, potentially, western casualties, if pilots are shot down or bail out or are taken hostage. It could mean innocent civilian deaths as the EU's foreign policy chief Lady Ashton warned last week. And if things do not go well, it may mean escalation beyond all that is envisaged now. Who knows when it will stop.
The immediate impact may be to stop Gaddafi's advance on Benghazi in its tracks. If that happens, the revolution will have been salvaged, albeit at the very last moment. Whether it can endure is another matter entirely.
The US and its European and Arab allies will hope that Gaddafi, facing the prospect of overwhelming, punitive force, will quickly back down, observe the UN demand for a ceasefire, even agree to negotiations. But to be sure of saving Benghazi, a no-fly zone will not be enough. To drive home the point the game is up, it is likely allied air strikes on Gaddafi's heavy armour and artillery will be required, and possibly also attacks directed at him personally, as Ronald Reagan tried in 1986.
Gaddafi acts like a bully and a coward. But he is full of bluster. Only a sudden, bloody nose will convince him to desist. This is he is probably about to receive. And the betting must be that, once the revised odds become clear, those remnants of the Libyan army and security forces that have so far remained loyal will desert him, too.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 10:00:43 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 1)

All the resolution does is relieve the pressure the regime's air force has been putting on the revolutionary ground forces. That's a lot, actually.

We'll have to see how the UN resolution is implemented and interpreted. It could be as little as preventing the LAF from flying to tactical air strikes on regime ground forces.

It's dawn in Libya so we could get a glimpse into the military plans Real Soon.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 10:20:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

It authorizes "all measures" to protect the population. This includes attacks against Gadaffi's ground forces. I hope the approach is "In for a penny, in for a pound!", and that they give his forces a real pounding.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Mar 17th, 2011 at 10:38:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 3)

UN orders air strikes against Gaddafi - World Politics, World - The Independent

Defence sources in London meanwhile indicated that the coalition's first targets would be the tank convoys closing on Benghazi or ships attempting to bombard the city. Arab participation is likely to be provided initially by Qatar and the United Arab Emirates, although there were already reports as the resolution was passed of Egypt shipping arms to the rebels across the border.
The US is not expected to provide military back-up initially, although it has an aircraft carrier off the coast.
The operation is likely to be mounted from French air force bases in the south of the country - which is less than 1,000 miles from the Libyan coast - as well as from RAF bases in Cyprus. Italy has also said it is prepared to make its military bases available to enforce a no-fly zone.
Arab involvement was a priority for London and Washington, which are anxious to avoid a perception of outside meddling in Arab affairs.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 05:07:57 AM EST

Re: Libya (4.00 / 2)

The threat of military action prompted Libya to promise attacks on civilian targets. In a fiery television address last night, Muammar Gaddafi said his forces were set to retake Benghazi. "The people will see tomorrow if the city is one of traitors or heroes... Don't betray me, my beloved Benghazi," he said.
After the resolution, the regime's official response came from deputy foreign minister Khalid Kaim, whose press conference in front of television cameras was interrupted when a noisy crowd of young men chanting pro-Gaddafi slogans burst into the room in what was supposedly a spontaneous show of support for the regime.
Mr Kaim congratulated the abstaining countries, but insisted that "there will be no intention of any party to attack civilians anywhere in the country".
He denied that his remarks contrasted with the threats against Benghazi earlier in the day by Col Gaddafi.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 05:09:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I was disappointed when I awoke this morning (none / 0)

that the serious business hadn't started yet.

[Insert zinger about believing impossible things before breakfast.]

_{It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II}

by eurogreen on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 05:45:30 AM EST

Re: I was disappointed when I awoke this morning (none / 1)

[eurogreen's Macho Moment of the Day™ Technology]

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 06:01:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

AP: Europe's air traffic agency says Libya has closed its air space to all flights

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 06:29:03 AM EST

Re: Libya (4.00 / 2)

So Libya is implementing the UNSC resolution?

UN security council resolution 1973 (2011) on Libya - full text | World news | The Guardian

6. Decides to establish a ban on all flights in the airspace of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya in order to help protect civilians;
7. Decides further that the ban imposed by paragraph 6 shall not apply to flights whose sole purpose is humanitarian, such as delivering or facilitating the delivery of assistance, including medical supplies, food, humanitarian workers and related assistance, or evacuating foreign nationals from the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, nor shall it apply to flights authorised by paragraphs 4 or 8, nor other flights which are deemed necessary by States acting under the authorisation conferred in paragraph 8 to be for the benefit of the Libyan people, and that these flights shall be coordinated with any mechanism established under paragraph 8;
8. Authorizes Member States that have notified the Secretary-General and the Secretary-General of the League of Arab States, acting nationally or through regional organizations or arrangements, to take all necessary measures to enforce compliance with the ban on flights imposed by paragraph 6 above, as necessary, and requests the States concerned in cooperation with the League of Arab States to coordinate closely with the Secretary General on the measures they are taking to implement this ban, including by establishing an appropriate mechanism for implementing the provisions of paragraphs 6 and 7 above,

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 06:52:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes :) (none / 0)

Libya accepts U.N. resolution for immediate ceasefire, decides to halt all military action - Libyan foreign minister

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 09:13:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes :) (none / 0)

Eagerly awaiting AT's "shocked" reaction when he wakes up and sees this...

So, in what may be my last act of "advising", I'll advise you to cut the jargon. -- My old PhD advisor, to me, 26/2/11

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 09:22:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes :) (none / 1)

Not shocked. I think the regime is lying.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 10:37:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 2)

Question 1: How well connected is Gaddafi to other Arab leaders?

Question 2: The situation is also deteriorating in Yemen and Bahrain... What about a UN resolution for those?

Question 3: What will be the psychological fall-out on Ahmadinedshad as he's looking on?

Question 4: Is it to be taken seriously when Gaddafi threatens to take ElKaida for an ally?

One of the reasons Germany abstained is that they fear repercussions due to the intervention (eg terrorist attacks; - or more/an escalation of the conflict?).

by Lily (put - lilyalmond - here <a> yahaah.france) on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 06:56:54 AM EST

Re: Libya (4.00 / 5)

Gaddaffi has flunked so hard with his attempts to create an Arabian super-nation, he never really has had a comeback from that. For example I understand that his relationship with Saudi Arabia is icy. But the most damning example I recall is the support that the Arab League gave last weekend to a no-fly zone above Lybia - against one of their own members!
Despite deadly police action, in Yemen and Bahrain the leaders haven't begun bombarding their own citizens.
I don't risk my neck to speculation any more...
I didn't read that anywhere. Where did you see that? The past week he's been accusing the opposition movement of being in league with Al Qaeda, so it strikes me as odd he's now talking about becoming anally of Al Quaeda. But well, odd and Gaddaffi go hand in hand. My short answer: aAnything out of Gaddaffi's mouth is hard to be taken serious.

by Nomad on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 09:59:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 9)

As a sort-of answer to your first question, Juan Cole explains why Lebanon co-sponsored the resolution:

A note: The resolution was co-sponsored by the Lebanese government, in which the Shiite party Hizbullah (Hezbollah) is a leading element. In part, Lebanon was representing the Arab League, which in some ways was the major political force (along with Britain and France) pushing for world action. But in other ways something more personal was going on.
When I was working for a newspaper in Beirut in 1978, I translated wire service reports on the disappearance of the great Shiite leader Mousa al-Sadr while on a trip to Libya. He was likely murdered by Qaddafi and put in a grave somewhere there. I once attended a lecture by Sadr in Beirut. He was a great man, charismatic and a force for uplift in his community and for outreach to other communities. He probably went to Libya in an attempt to convince Qaddafi not to send any more weapons to the factions there (such arms shipments and factionalization contributed to the long Lebanese Civil War). Lebanese Shiites, including Hizbullah, still lionize Mousa al-Sadr and despise Qaddafi.
Payback is a bitch.

by Gag Halfrunt on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 01:28:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

France24 - LIVE BLOGGING: Unrest in Libya

13:46 - Libya's foreign affairs minister Moussa Koussa also told journalists that Libya called for talks with all parties.
13:44 - Libya's foreign affairs minister has said the government has decided to halt all military operations to protect civilians in line with the UN's no-fly resolution.
13:41 - (AFP) Libya announces immediate halt to all military operations.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 09:14:27 AM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Is this serious or just tactics to confuse/win time?

by Lily (put - lilyalmond - here <a> yahaah.france) on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 09:37:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

That is the question, it will become clear over time.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 09:41:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Gaddafi apparently shelling the hell out of Misrata still.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 09:59:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Still fighting in Benghazi.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 09:39:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Missing NYT reporters found and to be released on Friday, NYT reports.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 09:17:16 AM EST

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Local TV reports RAF and French airforce have been training together in preparation over the north sea for the last three days in preparation.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 09:43:04 AM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

I'm sure they've been gaming it out for a while.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 09:52:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

probably since the 1960's

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 12:04:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Al Jazeera reporting in Tripoli reporting "loud explosions like nothing I've ever heard before"

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 11:12:15 AM EST

Dissenting on Libya (4.00 / 6)

Am I the only one here feeling uneasy at the triumphalist touting of military solutions to the Libyan issue as the the only and best solution?

Don't get me wrong, I am not a complete pacifist and support the UN resolution and applaud them for passing it just in time to save at least Benghazi if not the other towns under attack.

And I have no difficulty with military action designed to prevent further attacks by Gaddafi forces in contravention of the ceasefire.

But the process of establishing a viable and just future Governance structure for Libya is a good deal more complex than getting rid of Gaddafi and his henchmen and replacing one regime with another of unknown intentions and capabilities.

We don't know enough about who is, and is not, crossing over from Gaddafi to opposition forces, about how tribal allegiances are shifting, and how the transitional Governing council will act if it achieves the upper hand.

A lot of the army seem to be crossing over to the "revolutionary" side together with increasing amounts of heavy weaponry, so regime change may already be happening. The situation is so unstable, fluid and fast changing, it is difficult to predict tomorrow's events, never mind next week. There is no long term solution which includes Gaddafi, but there are any number of ways by which that may come about - and a direct ground assault on Tripoli by outside forces as suggested by Booman should be the very last resort.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 01:05:43 PM EST

Re: Dissenting on Libya (none / 1)

Step by step? First step stop the insane violence? Then covet the oil.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 01:13:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dissenting on Libya (none / 1)

second step - agree a process of transition to democratic rule with the Transitional Governing Council. Why put lives at risk to replace one despot with another?

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 01:25:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dissenting on Libya (4.00 / 2)

Frank Schnittger:

process of transition to democratic rule with the Transitional Governing Council.

i watched a fascinating Doha Debate on BBC yesterday, filmed in Cairo, in which they discussed exactly this.

the rub is who will be on this Transitional Governing Council? elected or appointed? who will choose the choosers?

the pro's wanted to wait for elections until political parties could build platforms and engage with the electorate in campaigns etc. their second point was that the muslim brotherhood is best positioned with early elections, which would be less fair.

the con's want elections right away, because they felt the longer the military is left in power, the less likely it will be to relax its grip.

both sides argue convincingly, the end vote was to wait for elections, and trust that the security forces/army will stay on the side of the people that long to permit a total re-write of the constitution
(both sides want this, no amendments, just trash it and restart from scratch).

considering the military refusing hosni's orders was pivotal in the revolution, they have some justification for this. the best argument con was that elections with tanks in the streets were less democratic, and that elections done sooner would get the military back to its real work, defending the country, not policing its own people.

the pro's want to wait longer till democratic institutions can be constructed, parties given time to offer mature policy ideas, clearer ideologies etc.

they point to Tunisia as an example of a successful Transitional Governing Council, so it can be done...

kudos to a terrific debate, all in english!!

the unifying power of english-as-global-lingua-franca was spectacularly obvious, the speakers and questions from the audience were astonishingly articulate and profound. it was a privilege to have a good look into the nascent sociopolitics at such a poignantly pivotal history plot point.

60 years of dictatorship, and now the freedom to redesign their society from the inside out. they know how important -and how hard- it is to get it right, and they care so passionately. one of the most riveting hours of television i have ever seen.

it also hit home how we need a global constitution, a blueprint that will template for any country, and all these brave people ripping off their shackles will probably author some new factors that can learn from the best the west have evolved, and re-volve them to greater affirmations of decency and wise global governance.

free libya! free the world!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 05:44:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dissenting on Libya (4.00 / 2)

I think you misread Boo a little bit. He wasn't advocating for getting rid of Gaddafi or letting him stay. If anything, he seems to be on the side of not getting involved. He simply meant that it was dangerous to make a policy of regime change with reliance on the rebel forces -- who aren't trained in the strategy and equipment the way soldiers from Britain, France and the US are -- to get the job done instead of simply doing it ourselves.

He's worried that we're committing to something without really committing to it fully, and that the consequence could be to make it needlessly bloody or even a failure.

I think it's a little pessimistic, but his concerns aren't lost on me.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 01:32:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dissenting on Libya (4.00 / 4)

Boo and I have had a few arguments of late - largely because I feel he accepts the militaristic framing of political problems so beloved of the neocons even if he doesn't share their intentions. He has also taken to bemoaning the responsibilities of being the world's sole superpower whilst not being shy of reaping the benefits.

On Libya, he basically wanted Europe to do the invading and the regime change. He argued that basically that was what the UN was sanctioning. My point is that under international law, the UN can sanction no such thing. Protect civilians, yes. Prevent human rights abuses, yes. Ultimately attack Gaddafi forces if they violate the ceasefire, yes. Overt invasion for the purposes of regime change crosses the line.

Europe isn't here to follow neocon framing and act as the USA has done in Afghanistan or Iraq. Boo is now arguing that gross human right's violations are not the USA'a problem. He's wrong on that score as well. It is the responsibility for all UN members, and particularly Security Council members, to act. But the solution isn't the invade first and ask questions afterwards.

It used to be US conservatives who were the isolationists. Now it is US progressives - disillusioned by Iraq and Afghanistan - who take that stance. What we actually need is a more sophisticated model of graduated intervention, not the all or nothing approach Boo seems to be advocating.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 02:11:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dissenting on Libya (4.00 / 8)

I feel uneasy as can be seen from my other comments.

I have severe doubts about bombing for peace. In theory I understand it, but in practice once started it will take a life of its own. After cheerleading it, media will back this no matter how horrible the western actions get. Head of state will act from reasons of prestige, military from institutional interests and governments will always have an eye towards economic benefit of to the state closly related companies.

Also it is an obvious double standard when looking at what happens elsewhere in the region, and I suspect that ties together in war games run by Pentagon strategists. Libya is unimportant in a strategic perspective, Saudi Arabia, the gulf states, Iraq, Iran, Egypt - those are the important ones.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 06:20:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dissenting on Libya (4.00 / 5)

An hour ago, Germany's new defense minister gave reasons for Germany's abstention in an IMHO rather undiplomatic interview. He spoke about the dictator ensuring that there will be civilian dead, that ultimately ground troops would be needed, and that it is hypocritical to want to remove Ghaddafi only and do nothing in a lot of other places (I think he listed Sudan and Ivory Coast among others). (The journalist asked him if that's a prediction of disaster for the allies.) Then there was a quip about allies who previously courted Ghaddafi now rushing to the forefront, clearly aimed at Sarko.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 06:28:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dissenting on Libya (4.00 / 4)

Anoter reason to be glad Googleburg is gone.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 07:08:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Calling a spade a spade (none / 0)

Where did he give that interview? Got a link?

_{Schengen is toast!}

by epochepoque on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 11:47:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Calling a spade a spade (4.00 / 2)

Heute Journal on ZDF (18:20-22:25, or use the "Geschpräch mit Verteidigungsminister De Maziere" tab).

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 02:42:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Calling a spade a spade (none / 1)

Thanks

_{Schengen is toast!}

by epochepoque on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 04:11:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Calling a spade a spade (none / 0)

I note that if he wants to be consequent, he should withdraw troops from Afghanistan today.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 04:26:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

strategically unimportant? (4.00 / 4)

2 million barrels per day of high quality light sweet oil in the Mediterranean (ie, nobody can grab it if we want it) is rather important for Europe... We can find other sources, but we have to fight for these with Asia and America, whereas Libya can only realistically go to Europe (just like Russian oil)

Wind power

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 02:52:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: strategically unimportant? (4.00 / 2)

For Pentagon :)

But actually, since whoever is in charge will sell to Europe, the ruler(s) does not matter much, do they?

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 04:49:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: strategically unimportant? (none / 1)

It does matter. Political upheaval always depresses oil output, permanently. Oilquake in the Middle East:

Here, however, is the news that should be on the front pages of newspapers everywhere: That old oil order is dying, and with its demise we will see the end of cheap and readily accessible petroleum -- forever.
... One conclusion isn't hard to draw: Efforts by outsiders to control the political order in the Middle East for the sake of higher oil output will inevitably generate countervailing pressures that result in diminished production. The United States and other powers watching the uprisings, rebellions, and protests blazing through the Middle East should be wary indeed: whatever their political or religious desires, local populations always turn out to harbor a fierce, passionate hostility to foreign domination and, in a crunch, will choose independence and the possibility of freedom over increased oil output.

_{Schengen is toast!}

by epochepoque on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 11:30:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You'll never walk alone (none / 1)

Robert Fisk in his inimitable way describes the ironies and dilemmas waiting for the coalition:

And let's not be fooled by what the UN resolution really means. Yet again, it's going to be regime-change. And just as in Iraq - to use one of Tom Friedman's only memorable phrases of the time - when the latest dictator goes, who knows what kind of bats will come flying out of the box?
... So here are a few things that could go wrong, a sidelong glance at those bats still nestling in the glistening, dank interior of their box. Suppose Gaddafi clings on in Tripoli and the British and French and Americans shoot down all his aircraft, blow up all his airfields, assault his armour and missile batteries and he simply doesn't fade away. I noticed on Thursday how, just before the UN vote, the Pentagon started briefing journalists on the dangers of the whole affair; that it could take "days" just to set up a no-fly zone.
... We talk now about the need to protect "the Libyan people", no longer registering the Senoussi, the most powerful group of tribal families in Benghazi, whose men have been doing much of the fighting. King Idris, overthrown by Gaddafi in 1969, was a Senoussi. The red, black and green "rebel" flag - the old flag of pre-revolutionary Libya - is in fact the Idris flag, a Senoussi flag. Now let's suppose they get to Tripoli (the point of the whole exercise, is it not?), are they going to be welcomed there? Yes, there were protests in the capital. But many of those brave demonstrators themselves originally came from Benghazi. What will Gaddafi's supporters do? "Melt away"? Suddenly find that they hated Gaddafi after all and join the revolution? Or continue the civil war?
And what if the "rebels" enter Tripoli and decide Gaddafi and his crazed son Saif al-Islam should meet their just rewards, along with their henchmen? Are we going to close our eyes to revenge killings, public hangings, the kind of treatment Gaddafi's criminals have meted out for many a long year? I wonder. Libya is not Egypt.
... It is all wearingly familiar. And now we are back at it again, banging our desks in spiritual unity. We don't have many options, do we, unless we want to see another Srebrenica? But hold on. Didn't that happen long after we had imposed our "no-fly" zone over Bosnia?

geo-magazine reporter Gabriele Riedle visited the country recently and comes away with a completely different assessment of the situation. Basically, she saw a power struggle between factions and tribes.

What do the demonstrators want? The surprising answer of the journalist: "I haven't met a single person who talks of democracy." The reflex of the West to think of the protest as good and bringing democracy is nothing more than "wishful thinking à la CNN" says Riedle and believes instead that the protests are more about a redistribution of power.
... What does the power struggle mean for the future of the country and social progress? And does the ouster of Gadaffi solve the problems? Gabriele Riedle's answer is less than optimistic. "What's supposed to get better? The privileges will be gone as well as the benefits and women will be afraid that the country will turn more fundamentalist." The protests have gained their own dynamic that have nothing to do with political intentions. "Someone shoots, then there is grief and then there is more shooting."
... An assessment that is shared by the Northern-Africa expert Thomas Hasel of the Otto-Suhr Institute. Especially the strong rivalries between tribes would make it difficult to "pull something new out of the hat." Additionally, there are no alternative parties (in contrast to Egypt) and no structures of civil society such as associations since they are forbidden.

I fear the Libya crisis has resurrected (at least for a short time) the unholy alliance of liberal do-gooders and trigger-happy right-wingers that achieved so much mischief in Afghanistan and Iraq. And we're already seeing how they are pouring more fodder into the conflict. France is apparently delivering heavy weapons to the rebels - isn't there some arms embargo in place? This could turn into a long-running civil war between East and West with its attendant refugee crisis. I don't want to imagine what kind of new monsters will be born out this.

One lesson to take away from the Iraq and Afghanistan disaster was to learn how to let go. The Middle East is on its own path and a beneficial outcome and history cannot be engineered. Instead, the old cliches of 'impending genocide' and 'bad dictators who will be overthrown by democratically minded people' are dusted off for their final performance.

I hope this goes well. But there is the primary difficulty. What does "well" mean? It's very hard to win a war when you don't define 'victory'. Monsieur Le President Hyperactif probably has no mind for that.

The age of interventions is over.

Zenga, zenga!

_{Schengen is toast!}

by epochepoque on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 10:38:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Gaddafi forces have bypassed Ajdabiya, where "heavy fighting" was reported earlier today and are now 50 kilometers from Benghazi. Radio Free Libya in Benghazi is calling on the youth to take up arms and prepare for battle.

Looks like Gaddafi is attempting to re-take Benghazi before French, British, and other countries can intervene with their air forces. Smooth move, if it works. If it doesn't those units will be, effectively, lost to the regime.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 03:49:06 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Reports the runway lights at French airbases on the island of Corsica have been turned on.

This is done to prep the runways for flight operations.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 04:06:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

I'm guessing Benghazi is about an hour, maybe an hour and a half from Corsica.

If Gaddafi's going straight for Benghazi, I suspect France and Britain will be moving on him soon.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 04:17:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Where are you seeing those reports, btw?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 04:18:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

#feb17 twitter channel on Google, look for ShababLibya, ChangeInLibya, and iyad_elbaghdadi (although he is AFC, right now.)

Feb17 website.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 04:25:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

The Guardian's Live Blog is also good.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 04:27:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Well, I hope that's why they've lit up the runways, because Gaddafi's people are awfully close to Benghazi, and they've apparently been slaughtering people in cities on the way.

Now or never, fellas.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 04:33:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

The air forces are in a bind. I don't know what, if any, aerial intelligence the strike packages have. If the Gaddafi forces are in contact with the revolutionaries it's going to be very difficult for the air assets to attack. Unless they have really good intelligence there is a high risk of hitting revolutionary units.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 04:37:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 2)

True, but that's the kind of thing they're paid to deal with. :)

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 04:42:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Yup. That's what forward air controllers are for.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 04:52:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 2)

I suspect they've been building that kind of intelligence for days now, and surely they anticipated Gaddafi trying to move on Benghazi before Sunday.

Plus, unlike the US and Britain, the French have an intelligence agency which, from what I've read, doesn't have its head up its ass.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 04:46:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Fuck Libya... (none / 0)

Free YEMEN !

by Largo on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 04:58:39 PM EST

Fuck Libya... (none / 0)

Free Saudi Arabia !!!

by Largo on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 04:59:22 PM EST

Re: Fuck Libya... (none / 1)

This could become a rather long list...

by asdf on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 09:45:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Fuck Libya... (4.00 / 3)

but nevertheless a well made point, especially in light of stories that the Libya resolution was passed in exchange for the West turning a blind eye on repression in the Gulf.

Wind power

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 02:54:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Fuck Libya... (none / 1)

There is repression. And there is repression.
Of course, repressing Chiites is acceptable.

by Largo on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 05:03:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Air strikes waiting on NATO which is waiting on Turkey? Julian Borger's blog 07.19 GMT Guardian

Before Thursday night's dramatic vote at the UN security council, European diplomats were saying that resolution 1973, and the sweeping military measures it authorises in Libya, could be put into effect "in hours".
Just how many hours it will take is critical to the rebel stronghold of Benghazi which is braced for an attack from forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi. The Libyan leader warned that his troops would go from house to house and room to room when they took the city, showing "no mercy". The onslaught did not materialise on Thursday night as Gaddafi had threatened, but government forces have massed in preparation for an attack, so it clear that if the Security Council words are to mean anything, time is very short.
If this had been a Bush-era "coalition of the willing" operation, it could have been put into action quite rapidly. The US would have done all the fighting with a few token British and French planes along for company. But the Obama administration, which tried very hard to avoid this moment, is insistent that the Arabs and Europeans must at least be seen to take the lead, and that will take more time. There is a trade-off between speed and making it look right.
First of all, the matter has to go to Nato, where contingency planning has been underway for a couple of weeks, but where Turkey has been resisting military intervention. Any decision to act requires unanimity.
If and when that resistance is overcome, it is likely that the Nato air base at Sigonella in Sicily will become the hub for operations, supported by French and British bases around the Mediterranean. Then it will be a question of assembling all the fighter jets, the refuelling planes, the surveillance, search-and-rescue, and electronic warfare aircraft necessary to mount a campaign.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 10:20:15 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Militarily, it is not so hard to deal with Gadaffi. Politically, it is.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 10:21:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

well, this seems moot (none / 1)

Sarkozy seems really keen to drop the "cheese-eating surrender monkey" label :)

Wind power

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 02:55:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: well, this seems moot (none / 1)

Getting a bit of a kick out of wingnuts trying to cope with France leading the charge.

I'm sure it proves Obama is Carter.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 02:59:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: well, this seems moot (none / 0)

Pathetic morons.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 05:24:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

I am afraid we haven't seen anything yet...and not only in Libya...
Everything that happens seems to me like a big mess...big confusion...not much logic can be used in these events in Arab world as far as I am concerned. First of all I do not see what would be western interest in those events (to initiate them)...those (except Kaddafi with whom they worked well) are western friendly dictators. Then who exactly initiated them? And why? Is it really spontaneous rebellion? I do not believe in those...Even if it is it will not work because of the lack of organization. Sectarian clashes in a wake of this will be horrific...did they initiate this? Who will come in power even if those regimes are gone (and rightly)? Can we expect worse (fundamentalists)?
Is the reaction of west instinctive without much of the planning? Are they simply going to add to this mess? How many people will die in a process?
I just cannot make any logical conclusions...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Fri Mar 18th, 2011 at 10:42:20 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 1)

vbo:

Then who exactly initiated them? And why? Is it really spontaneous rebellion? I do not believe in those...Even if it is it will not work because of the lack of organization.

I think everybody is initiating them, or rather that every organisation that potentially could (commies, fundies, unions) do an uprising is taking credit and helping as the rebellions erupt from frustration, starvation, unemployment and the belief that finally the time has come.

Big part is demographics coupled with IMF-style economics, giving huge unemployment. Lots and lots of unemployed young men. Education matters little, contacts much. Like what was said about Russia in the early 20th century - they face revolution at home or war abroad (tried one, got both).

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 08:02:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

A swedish kind of death:

I think everybody is initiating them, or rather that every organisation that potentially could (commies, fundies, unions) do an uprising is taking credit and helping as the rebellions erupt from frustration, starvation, unemployment and the belief that finally the time has come.

Nailed. herding all these cats into a viable political alternative to dictatorship is going to be interesting.

the long messy discussions are what slows democracy down, but the alternative seems always worse.

do not destroy what you cannot create.

that is the rule. now, how to break it correctly. we can all help, that's the beautiful thing... in reality we have no choice.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 05:57:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

France24 - Are Gaddafi's forces inept or invincible?

So have the international community's predictions of Gaddafi's firepower been wrong all along?
Not quite, says Gary Li, of the Defence and Military Analysis Programme at the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies.
"It's an open debate," said Li in a phone interview with FRANCE 24. "Gaddafi's forces have the advantage now as they have changed their methods. They started with airstrikes - with mixed success. What's happening now is his elite brigades are using the classic `creeping barrage' tactic of heavily shelling areas and gradually moving inwards. But as each side reaches the heartland of the other, both sides are finding it difficult to deal the fatal blow."

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 03:20:48 AM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

France24 - Are Gaddafi's forces inept or invincible?

Despite Libyan state TV claims that Misrata, the last big rebel stronghold in western Libya, had fallen on Wednesday, rebel spokesmen and residents on Thursday said rebels still controlled the strategic city.
Similarly, Libyan state media claims that Ajdabiya, a town east of Benghazi, had been seized from rebel control have also been refuted, with hospital officials telling reporters the city had witnessed heavy fighting, but still no surrender.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 03:21:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

How can Gaddafi forces (none / 1)

"control" cities in anyway other than through massive slaughter and terror, as things stand?

Wind power

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 02:57:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How can Gaddafi forces (none / 1)

Well it all depends on the rebel/loyalist ratio, most people are in the keeping their heads down group

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 03:10:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Beeb:

1127: Two RAF Tornados have been seen taking off from RAF Lossiemouth in Scotland. It is impossible to say where they are headed but they are equipped with long-range fuel tanks.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 07:48:17 AM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

canadian F18's have been seen at Prestwick Airport in Scotland on the way somewhere.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 08:57:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Canada needs two days to prepare jets for Libya

PARIS, March 19 (Reuters) - Canada backs the idea of taking swift military action in Libya but it would need two days to prepare its military aircraft for an operation, a government spokesman said during international talks in Paris.
"While Canada supports quick action, Canadian fighter jets have just reached the region and will require two days to prepare for any mission," a spokesman for Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper told Reuters by email.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 10:55:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Not sounding good right now. Where is the coalition?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 07:54:51 AM EST

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Reuters: Sources say world powers meeting in Paris could launch air strikes as soon as the talks end

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 08:57:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

BBC Arabic apparently quoting Libyan State TV: The Green Libyan flag (of Gaddafi) has been raised in most parts of Benghazi

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 08:59:52 AM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

By the time they get done talking in Paris, Gaddafi may already control Benghazi.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 09:05:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Six Danish F-16s landed at the US base in Sigonella, Sicily.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 09:22:23 AM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Al Arabiya: French military source says that #Libya was photographed at night to identify key targets.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 10:16:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Al Arabiya: French military source confirms French jets were flying minutes ago in Libyan skies to make sure that citizens aren't attacked

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 10:16:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Al Arabiya correspondent in Paris: French jets will take off from Corsica, British jets from Cyrpus #Libya

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 10:17:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Al Arabiya: Sarkozy will announce a War Council soon to execute strikes on Libyan targets

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 10:17:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

French air force is first into fray in #Libya. Part of the delay was to tell anxious rebel gunners not to shoot.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 10:17:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Al Arabiya correspondent in Paris: identified targets include Sirt Military Airport as well as other military airport targets

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 10:18:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Source appears to be BFM TV, anyone know about them? political leanings? tabloidness level?

BBC News - Live: Libya crisis

BFM, a French TV station, is reporting French fighter jets are over Benghazi enforcing the no-fly zone.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 10:24:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Never heard of them. AFP confirming though, according to France 24.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 10:27:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

BFM (4.00 / 2)

B = Business

This is an all-news station, focused on economics/business news. It's owned by a smallish group which also owns the RMC radio. So probably following the current wisdom, but no other particular evil ;)

Wind power

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 03:16:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 3)

Australian foreign minister (ex PM) said yesterday "let's prey that it's not too late for people in Libya (Bengasi)" after resolution was trough UN,
Well he was right...It's too late.
It does not matter now if they bomb shit out of Gaddafi, actually they will destroy infrastructure of Libya (not Gaddafi) and Libyans will be paying for that with their lives and money. Remember they did not make a single scar on Milosevic or his camarilla (they were safe) but Serbian people have been killed and infrastructure has been destroyed. It did not even force Milosevic out of power. If anything he was more popular immediately after bombardment. It took time for people to rebel and take him out with all the help from outside. We'll see much more blood in Libya but I am afraid elsewhere too.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 09:54:04 AM EST

Re: Libya (4.00 / 3)

You raise good points.

My hope is the attacks will be directed against military targets, the regime's air fields, ground forces, and their logistics, staying far away from civic infrastructure and population centers.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 10:35:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Al-Jazeera says French journalists hear France will be hitting Gaddafi's tanks, which seem to be mainly in the outer neighborhoods of Benghazi, in order to send a message they're ending the siege.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 10:41:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

BBC News - Live: Libya crisis

The BBC reports President Sarkozy is due to make a statement on Libya "shortly" as the meeting in Paris with world leaders wraps up.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 10:46:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

French jets are Rafale fighters doing reconnaissance missions, per AFP.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 10:29:09 AM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

If they are contemplating ground strikes against the forces attacking Benghazi they will need Forward Air Controllers - as I mentioned earlier - with current target intelligence to direct the attacks. They will want to first locate, target, and destroy anti-aircraft weaponry attached or integral to the ground forces around Benghazi, Zintan, Misurata, and along the supply lines.

The regime started off with:

In 2009 the [International Institute for Strategic Studies] estimated that Libya had Crotale, SA-7 Grail, SA-9/SA-13 surface to air missiles, and AA guns in Army service. A separate Air Defence Command has SA-2, SA-3, SA-5 Gammon, and SA-8b Gecko, plus guns.
Reported anti aircraft artillery includes Soviet 57 mm S-60, 23 mm self-propelled ZSU-23-4 and ZU-23-2, Czech M53/59 Praga, and Swedish Bofors 40mm guns.

These are, mostly, outdated Warsaw Pact era equipment, in suspect operating condition and not all that effect against modern aircraft. However, there is a lot of it and if enough junk is thrown into the sky they are bound to hit something, eventually.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 11:01:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

I think they've already gathered the intelligence. I can't remember if ceebs posted it or not, but France was flying recon missions last night to game out its targets.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 11:03:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

BBC News - Live: Libya crisis

The former Libyan interior minister who defected to the opposition has denied returning to the government. Abdel Fatah Yunes told Al-Jazeera that he was still leading battlefield operations. Asked to comment on Libyan state TV pictures showing him embracing Colonel Gaddafi, he said: ''It is old footage. I'm sitting here in Benghazi.''

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 10:46:08 AM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Sarko speaking now.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 10:47:09 AM EST

Re: Libya (4.00 / 3)

Stacy Herbert (stacyherbert) on Twitter

Sarkozy: "I will all measures to halt Marine Le Pen's advance in the polls & to ensure my own victory in next year's election"

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 10:51:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Probably some truth to that. But hopefully he's doing the right thing, even if for the wrong reasons.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 10:55:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

France has already taken action?

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 11:03:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

I presume it's the Shot down aircraft thats shown on the news channels

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 11:05:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Heh.

Although didn't the rebels already admit it was their plane?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 11:08:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Last thing I saw was nobody knew whos plane it was or how it ended up being hit by something

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 11:12:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Al Jazeera reporting it was a revolutionary jet that was shot down.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 11:36:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

David Cameron: Gaddafi has broken his word and continues to slaughter his own civilians - action must take place urgently

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 10:56:22 AM EST

Re: Libya (none / 1)

BBC News - Live: Libya crisis

President Sarkozy says international leaders have agreed to use "all the necessary means - in particular, military means" to enforce the UN Security Council resolution.

BBC News - Live: Libya crisis

President Sarkozy continues by saying it is a duty to support Arab people and counter the "murderous madness" in Libya

BBC News - Live: Libya crisis

France is resolved to shoulder its role before history, the French president tells the news conference.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 11:13:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Saw a tweet saying French aircraft were just off Tunisian shores.

Going after Tripoli?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 11:10:12 AM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

The main military airbase is located on the west side of Tripoli.

There are Gadaffi ground forces in and around the city of Zintan, close to the Tunisian/Libyan border.

Either one would be within the mission statement of the UN resolution.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 11:14:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Al Arabiya correspondent says Italian planes start surveillance over Libya

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 11:14:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

They let the Italians make planes? ;)

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 11:16:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

BBC News - Live: Libya crisis

Italian prime minister Silvio Berlusconi says that for now Italy is only providing bases for the Libya operation, following earlier reports that Italian aircraft had been involved in surveillance operations.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 11:34:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Question then is when is the last time Silvio told the truth?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 11:35:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

From Feb 17:

4:22pm: AFP reports that French planes are Rafale fighter jets, flying reconnaissance missions across "all Libyan territory", citing a military source.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 11:16:26 AM EST

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Al Jazeera showing a major fire in Benghazi.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 11:25:03 AM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

French journalists reported that French fighter jets will begin their strike operations by targetting pro-Gaddafi tanks around Benghazi in order to send a message that they are breaking the siege.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 11:26:59 AM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

France24 - Live: French jets enter Libyan airspace to counter Gaddafi attacks

President Nicolas Sarkozy announced Saturday that French jets have entered Libyan airspace after a crunch meeting of world leaders in Paris. French forces will be countering the attacks of Gaddafi's forces on Benghazi.

Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi says Italy is only providing bases for military intervention, contradicting previous Al Arabiya television reports that Italian planes had begun a surveillance mission in Libya.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 11:37:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Report: France jets strike Ajdabiyah

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 11:41:10 AM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

AP: French official says Mirage and Rafale fighters are flying over Benghazi and could strike Libyan tanks

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 11:49:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 5)

Andy Carvin (acarvin) on Twitter

I live-tweeted Mo's stream last night until 1:30am. Then I went to bed. I feel so fucking selfish. I should have stayed up. If I'd known.... 24 minutes ago via TweetDeck
And now I can't stop thinking, what if those French planes began to arrive 12 hours ago. Would Mo be alive now? I just don't know. 27 minutes ago via TweetDeck
The saddest part is that French planes are over Benghazi now. Mo didn't live long enough to see his cries for help being answered. RIP, Mo. 35 minutes ago via TweetDeck
And then an hour or so ago, his wife released this audio. http://bit.ly/ed4lx0 Absolutely heartbreaking, but she is so, so brave to do it. 36 minutes ago via TweetDeck
For several hours we heard rumors that he had been shot but we didn't want to say anything until we knew for sure. 38 minutes ago via TweetDeck
A few hours ago he went out to record some more audio and was caught in a firefight. Audio stops 6:30 into it. http://bit.ly/h4tphZ 38 minutes ago via TweetDeck
"I'm not meant to die easily. Don't worry about that. I'm being saved for a bigger..." Mo said today on his stream, then changed the topic. 39 minutes ago via TweetDeck
Mo recorded this video last month, which became a rallying cry for the world to intervene in Libya: http://youtu.be/UyIyz44oKQQ 40 minutes ago via TweetDeck
Mohammad Nabbous was my primary contact in Libya, and the face of Libyan citizen journalism. And now he's dead, killed in a firefight. 41 minutes ago via TweetDeck
Reuters: Sarkozy announces French planes are in the air to protect civilians in Benghazi. 42 minutes ago via TweetDeck
Hi folks... I'm sorry I've been offline a couple of hours but I've been soaking up the news that Mo was killed today. Absolutely devastating about 1 hour ago via TweetDeck

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 11:48:00 AM EST

Re: Libya (4.00 / 3)

RT @Jezabeldiablo: SO VERY SAD: Mohammad Nabbous was my primary contact in Libya, the face of Libyan citizen journalism. Now he's dead, ...

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 11:48:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

@MartinChulov Qatar sends jets to attack #Libya in support of citizens and troops to #Bahrain in support of the regime...

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 11:51:52 AM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Libya live blog: latest developments on no-fly zone, ceasefire and Benghazi | World news | guardian.co.uk

PA reports that two US F-15 Strike Eagle ground attack jets have taken off from US Air Force base at Lakenheath, near Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, in England.
US planes took off from the same base in 1986 to bomb Libya.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 12:04:09 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Sky Sources: No-fly zone over Libya will be coordinated by U.S. central command

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 12:15:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 3)

Robert Fisk: First it was Saddam. Then Gaddafi. Now there's a vacancy for the West's favourite crackpot tyrant - Robert Fisk, Commentators - The Independent

So we are going to take "all necessary measures" to protect the civilians of Libya, are we? Pity we didn't think of that 42 years ago. Or 41 years ago. Or... well, you know the rest. And let's not be fooled by what the UN resolution really means. Yet again, it's going to be regime-change. And just as in Iraq - to use one of Tom Friedman's only memorable phrases of the time - when the latest dictator goes, who knows what kind of bats will come flying out of the box?
And after Tunisia, after Egypt, it's got to be Libya, hasn't it? The Arabs of North Africa are demanding freedom, democracy, liberation from oppression. Yes, that's what they have in common. But what these nations also have in common is that it was us, the West, that nurtured their dictatorships decade after decade after decade. The French cuddled up to Ben Ali, the Americans stroked Mubarak, while the Italians groomed Gaddafi until our own glorious leader went to resurrect him from the political dead.
Could this be, I wonder, why we have not heard from Lord Blair of Isfahan recently? Surely he should be up there, clapping his hands with glee at another humanitarian intervention. Perhaps he is just resting between parts. Or maybe, like the dragons in Spenser's Faerie Queen, he is quietly vomiting forth Catholic tracts with all the enthusiasm of a Gaddafi in full flow.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 12:22:11 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Reuters - Canada's Harper says naval actions also taking place in Libya, including a naval blockade

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 12:24:41 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Clinton speaking now from Paris: The Libyan govt has lost all legitimacy. Gaddafi's violence against Libyans must stop.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 12:32:33 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Clinton says Gaddafi has lost legitimacy. Who gave him legitimacy? (Hint - a certain Middle East 'Peace' envoy).

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 12:48:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Matthew Taylor (MTPT) on Twitter

If Obama and Clinton end up remembered for anything, giving the lie to the "cheese- eating surrender-monkey" jibe is now in the lead.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 12:50:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

French airplane "fired the first shot at a vehicle" at 1645 GMT.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 12:58:54 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 1)

French defence ministry spokesman Laurent Teisseire told reporters: "A first target was engaged and destroyed." An armed forces spokesman told the same briefing the operation to halt Colonel Gaddafi's advance on rebel forces involved around 20 planes and an area 100 km by 150 km (60 by 100 miles) around the eastern rebel stronghold of Benghazi. France's Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier will leave France for Libya on Sunday, the spokesman added. A central command centre for the operation was still being set up.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 01:26:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

French war planes destroy 4 Libyan tanks in air strikes south west of Benghazi, Al Jazeera television reports - Reuters

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 01:49:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

@bnnNEWSLIVE: #Spain will participate in the operation in Libya with six planes, including four F-18, a frigate and submarine, Spanish PM

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 01:01:31 PM EST

Re: Libya (4.00 / 2)

1748: French aircraft have destroyed four Libyan tanks in air strikes to the south-west of Benghazi, Al-Jazeera television has reported.

Ouch.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 01:49:37 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Libya live blog: latest developments on no-fly zone, ceasefire and Benghazi | World news | guardian.co.uk

French media is reporting that Benghazi rebels admit they shot down their own plane today.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 01:54:06 PM EST

Re: Libya (4.00 / 2)

This isn't just because they are untrained, There are countless examples of Anti aircraft gunners shooting their own aircraft down (in one example off the coast of Libya during WW2, a British convoy managed to shoot down its entire fighter escort)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 01:57:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Fire discipline. They ain't got none.

sigh

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 02:03:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Well in the opposite direction Churchill is quoted saying something like the average pilot couldnt tell the difference between the bismark and the isle of White ferry.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 02:07:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Yup.

That's why these things can't be ad-hoc'ed. Command and Control needs to tight when you've got people armed to the teeth, tanked-up on adrenaline, making almost instant life and death decisions. Pilots who linger over a target area tend to be dead pilots. They need to get in & out as quickly as possible; thus, they have to rely on their controllers for "situational awareness" -- as it's known.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 02:31:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

good thing libya doesn't have nuke plants! surprised areva hadn't built any there yet, lol.

innumerable replays of kaddaffi's demented railings are really getting old.

interesting how they couldn't use drones, since they're so happy to drop them on afpak.

even reagan's botched attempts on kaddaffi's family looks more humanitarian than the possible tarpit-occupation-in-the-making we're watching now.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 06:17:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 2)

melo:

surprised areva hadn't built any there yet, lol.

Nuke plants were supposedly sold to Libya (and trumpeted), but Gaddafi never signed the contracts.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 07:23:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Another reason the NFZ enforcing aircraft need to be real careful of their attack and run-off avenues.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 02:08:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

i wonder if the plane came from a defector, did they change the painted logo, or just throw it back in the air against the tyrant? maybe they thought it was his...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 06:12:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Revolutionaries in [Zintan claim to] have destroyed a Gadaffi unit completely capturing all weapons and hardware

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 01:54:30 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Seems clear Gadaffi's "smooth move" - see my comment, above - has failed.

Now he has reinforced (?) mechanized (?) units stuck in the middle of nowhere, with little chance of reinforcement or logistic support. They have to be physically drained after yesterday's combat, last night's movement, and today's combat. They are very likely low on munitions and other combat supplies.

How many of the survive the night depends on how many planes the French and other air forces can put into the target area and how many those planes want to kill.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 02:01:56 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Didn't the mechanized units move into the outskirts of Benghazi, ensuring civilian casualties?

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 02:06:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Reports are they were repulsed and retreated back into the countryside.

Over the last month, the standard pattern has been for the regime to attack using ground forces at first light and pull back at night. With no "front lines" keeping infantry and armor, in a city, at night, is dumb. (For a number of reasons.)

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 02:12:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

After posting, heard on Al Jazeera there are Gadaffi tanks, etc., inside Benghazi.

If there are, and they aren't reinforced or withdrawn tomorrow, they aren't going to be militarily useful for very long. Armor in urban areas are extremely vulnerable to swarm tactics by motivated defenders. The revolutionaries lack many things, motivation is not one of them.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 02:21:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Additionally, they might still be hittable by the jets, depending on the kind of area they in.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 02:26:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Aerial target acquisition in urban areas is extremely difficult. Even with trained, disciplined, defenders individuals and sub-units tend to stray from where they are supposed to be or mis-report their position.

Even more important, the one thing that cannot happen is "collateral damage" on the people the NFZ is supposed to protect.

The best thing is to let the revolutionaries deal with Gadaffi forces inside the urban areas.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 02:35:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Al Jazeera reporter in Benghazi saying all Gadaffi forces have been repelled from the city.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 03:05:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Rock and a hard place really, isn't it? If you stay in the city, you get ambushed by the rebels. If you stay outside the city, you're an easy target for the French.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 03:12:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Sucks to be them, don't it?

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 03:18:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Does not the French Air Force have nighttime combat ability, including ground attack. On IR those tanks should stand out like spotlights. If so, all of Gadaffi's vehicles could be gone by tomorrow.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 05:32:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

I'm sure they have the capability. France spends a fair amount of money on its military, and being a close ally of ours, it's tough to imagine them not having it.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 05:41:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Drew J Jones:

and being a close ally of ours

oceania has always been at peace with insert country's name...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 06:19:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Things are really going to get nasty for the regime forces if/when the Tornado ground-attack planes get active.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 05:42:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Reports from Zintan is under very heavy shelling as Gadaffi forces try to break into the city. Same situation as Benghazi: they are just a bunch of targets, screaming "bomb us!" if they stay out in the open.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 02:25:31 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Ditto regarding Misurata.

Somebody on the regime side has realized their armed forces are fucked unless they can get under cover, real quick.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 02:38:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Yep.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 02:46:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 4)

The first targets should be the artillery and rocket units. Not only are they "soft targets" removing them halves the combat capability of the armor and infantry.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 02:49:09 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

SKY News - U.S. defence official says U.S. Navy has three submarines in mediterranean preparing for operations in Libya

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 03:11:17 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 1)

slightly confused as to their mission. Could be there for Search-and-Rescue of damaged planes. Could be there to launch surface-to-surface missiles against land targets. Could be there to conduct operations against Libyan Naval surface forces. They could be there, I suppose, for anti-submarine operations; the Libyan navy has 6 Foxtrot class submarines on their T/O but everybody thinks they aren't a factor.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 03:24:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

same here, but on the off chance they can get their submarines out, better to have them there than not

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 03:31:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Ack.

If they are in the tool box, why not?

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 03:36:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 2)

No doubt the Navy is insistent on proving they're worth the money

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 03:41:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 3)

This is a great opportunity to strut your stuff with the world watching, aka sales opportunity.

France won the chance to show off the Rafale that no one wants to buy (too dear).

Just watched Juppé on the public TV main news. He said to the journalist, "If we hadn't done anything, you'd be asking me how much longer we were going to sit waiting." Journalist looks at him with a half-conniving half-mocking smile. Next to me someone I know well says: "No he wouldn't, because you wouldn't be in the studio."

Right.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 03:50:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 2)

Sultan Al Qassemi (SultanAlQassemi) on Twitter

Despite being earlier reported, Saudi Arabia's absence from the coalition against Gaddafi is quite intriguing. Background coming up.

Sultan Al Qassemi (SultanAlQassemi) on Twitter

In 2004 Gaddafi was accused of plotting to assassinate King Abdallah of Saudi (he was crown prince then). More info http://bit.ly/gt00Em

Sultan Al Qassemi (SultanAlQassemi) on Twitter

In 2009 Gaddafi told Saudi King Abdallah at an Arab Summit in Qatar "It has been proven whose past is a pack of lies & who is facing death"

Sultan Al Qassemi (SultanAlQassemi) on Twitter

It seems that Saudi is irked by two recent US political decisions, one is to put pressure on Mubarak resulting in his removal by the army.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 03:33:53 PM EST

Re: Libya (4.00 / 2)

(I don't know why I am posting this, considering the source ... )

Fox News reporting US submarines have launched Tomahawk cruise missiles.

The Tomahawk can carry 1,000 lbs (~450 kilos) payload, either a single warhead or sub-munitions.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 03:34:48 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Sky News - AFP: Loud blasts heard east of Libyan capital Tripoli

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 03:35:43 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Maybe above-mentioned Tomahawk cruise missiles?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 03:37:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Skys (and so probably fox) reporting them fired at the Libyan air defences

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 03:39:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Al Jazeera new reporting US warships have fired missiles at Libyan air defense sites.

Toss this is: the Charles de Gaulle has been ordered to sea and should be off the coast of Libya by tomorrow.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 03:59:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

President Obama to make statement on Libya conflict within the hour -

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 03:38:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Reports of "French" - how can they tell in the dark? - jets flying over Misurata.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 03:38:31 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

well if they dont sound like Migs theyre probably French.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 03:40:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Take an awful stupid pilot to fly a Mig-23 against a Rafale or Mirage 2000.

So I guess you're right.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 03:51:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Seen reports earlier, that the Lebanese embassy in Tripoli was stormed by Ghadaffi supporters earlier today and its contents destroyed.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 03:43:19 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Reuters: US official: attacks focus on Tripoli and Misurata military installations; 25 coalition ships and subs off the Libyan coast.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 03:58:29 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Makes sense.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 04:00:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

"Misurata"!

Now, that's interesting.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 04:01:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

France 24 says Tomahawks are hitting now.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 04:05:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

On Misurata?

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 04:08:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Tripoli, I think.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 04:16:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Cameron "British forces are in action over Libya tonight."

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 04:08:14 PM EST

Re: Libya (4.00 / 3)

David Cameron really seems at pains to stress the legality of the operations. We get it, Dave. You're not Blair.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 04:08:26 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 1)

EANewsFeed:

Houses in Tripoli 20 km away shook from US missile explosions

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 04:14:05 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Twitter source (of unknown reliability) saying loud explosions can be heard and Gadaffi forces in/around Misurata have been attacked

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 04:20:46 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

CNN BREAKING: Pentagon says USA has Fired Missiles On Libya Near Tripoli & Misrata

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 04:22:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

110 Tomahawks launched by US naval forces operating off the coast of Libya.

Targeted at taking down the "critical nodes" of Libyan air-defense systems to "shape the battlefield."

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 04:27:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Basically knocking out air defenses in areas Gaddafi controls -- probably not a problem in Benghazi, hence French attack with jets there -- and softening up some of his stuff outside Misurata, I guess?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 04:30:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

IIRC:

Misurata was the home base for the Khamis Brigade. So there's bound to be all kinds of things lying around everybody would like to see unavailable to the regime.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 05:02:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

I just hope that they don't try decapitation and are better in target selection than in Iraq...

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 05:45:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Libya Live Blog - March 19 | Al Jazeera Blogs

The Pentagon says that the UAE and Qatar will also be involved in military operations in Libya, but will announce their involvement themselves.
The operation falls under the operational command of the US African Command, under General Carter Hamm. Tactical execution is being run out of the USS Mount Whitney, Admiral Sam Locklear commanding.
Off the coast of Libya, there are: 11 vessels from Italy, 11 from the US (including three submarines, each with 100 missiles on board), one from the UK, one from France and one from Canada.
The no-fly zone will encompass Tripoli, Sabha, Natoura, Misurata and Benghazi.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 04:24:27 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

dm William Gortney: 110 tomahawks attacked more than 20 defense systems. Launched from US/UK subs and ships.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 04:25:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

sam sitres, comms sites, command sites

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 04:27:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Gortney: Targets were selected because they were a threat to the coalition or to Libyan civilians.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 04:31:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

operation Odyssey Dawn is what its being called.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 04:39:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Libya Live Blog - March 19 | Al Jazeera Blogs

AFP reports that Libyan state television reports that a French aircraft has been shot down over Libya. There is no independent confirmation of this claim yet.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 04:54:31 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Wouldn't believe the Libyan television if they reported the Pacific Ocean was "a whole bunch of water."

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 05:06:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Al Arabiya: French Defense Ministry denies military aircraft was shot down over #Libya

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 05:18:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

I thought the French were in eastern Libya.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 05:09:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Reports, up thread, of French airplane over Misurata.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 05:12:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

BBC News - Live: Libya crisis

Reuters reports that four Spanish F-18 fighters have taken off from Madrid as part of the UN coalition.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 05:01:31 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Jesus, is anyone not involved in this?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 05:02:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 3)

Sweden has yet to pile in so as to be able to advertise the Gripen.

(Available, in quantity, at the nearest military hardware show near you.)

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 05:10:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 2)

AND, while you're there, check out the DaffyMobile®. Soon with designer colored matching umbrellas!)

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 05:12:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Although the DaffyMobile(R) is probably built by Germany or Russia, so just make sure it comes with a good warranty. ;)

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 05:31:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

The Swedish government has actually been very dishonorably passive. First they said that we certainly needed a NFZ and much more, but that sadly there was no UN mandate. When the strong mandate came around they panicked and claimed that this had nothing to do with the EU but was exclusively a NATO operation and "should we really spend Swedish tax money on this?"(!). They were them blasted along the lines of "why the hell do we then have expensive stuff like EU Battlegroups and the associated quick response Expeditionary Air Wing (8 Gripen with assorted support units)? If they weren't created for a situation like this, why then do we have them? Why have created them while we have completely eliminated any semblance of national defence? Then it was claimed that we lack interoperability with NATO, which was shot down by military experts who noted that the Swedish Airforce is more NATO-adapted than most NATO Airforces. Then you had all the Gulf Arab support and the NATO argument collapsed entirely. So now we have the rather unusual situation that the left demands we send fighter bombers and flatten Kadaffi while the right looks extremely spineless.

I'm quite ashamed actually, and have lost any trust I might have hade in the foreign policy acumen of PM Reinfeldt and FM Bildt. Quite frankly, I'm pissed off.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 08:58:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Further, we look even more like giant pussies now that Denmark and Norway said they thet would "of course" send fighter jets.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 09:04:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

this is the first chance the eurozone has had to try a Real (tm) wargame with integrated national resources in our own backyard, rather than way over there somewhere else

almost too good to be true, probably low casualties since for a change they're on the side of the people...this was such a sudden and transparently expedient switch, no one can be fooled into thinking they can't talk out of both sides of their mouths.

they might really throw flowers this time!

seriously, what's going to cool the powerplays and tribal factionalism after kaddaffi's gone?

halliburton and private security?

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 06:29:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

it's pretty multilateral. germany's decision to pass seems much less controversial than france's in the iraq build up.

i get it, america can't use drones because europe doesn't have them, so it will be obvious they're spearheading this little um, skirmish.

replay the falklands with more bells on?

let's hope not, and the stated humanitarian claims are more authentic than saving the iraquis from their brutal dictator.

it's a gamble, going in militarily, will the gambler know when to stop?

or will the temptation to prop them up until they all get purple thumbs and such be too seductive?

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 06:41:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Reports Al Jazeera reporters in Tripoli have been arrested.

No confirmation.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 05:16:09 PM EST

Re: Libya (4.00 / 2)

Libya Live Blog - March 19 | Al Jazeera Blogs

11:06pm
Four Al Jazeera journalists have been detained by Libyan authorities in the west of the country.
Lotfi al-Messaoudi (a Tunisian), Ahmed Vall Ould Addin (a Mauritanian), Ammar al-Hamdan (a Norwegian cameraman) and Kamel Atalua (British) were held while working in the west of the country.
Al Jazeera says that the Libyan authorities will be held accountable for the safety, security and well-being of the team, who are being held in Tripoli.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 05:49:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Al Jazeera says that the Libyan authorities will be held accountable for the safety, security and well-being of the team, who are being held in Tripoli

Wut?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 05:54:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Confirmed by Al Jazeera

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 05:51:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

BBC News - Live: Libya crisis

Col Bob Stewart, the former United Nations commander in Bosnia, observes that resolution 1973 mandates "all necessary measures" to protect civilians. But doing this, he tells the BBC, may necessitate regime change. "The best defence for the people of Libya is for Gaddafi to go," he adds.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 05:38:30 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Libyan state tv says Daffy to speak shortly.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 05:42:03 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Must open all weapon depots to the Libyan people.

?

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 06:04:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Whatcouldgowrong?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 06:09:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 3)

Jonathan Shainin (jonathanshainin) on Twitter

jonathanshainin Jonathan Shainin I hope Sarkozy doesn't plan to pay back all his campaign contributors like this.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 06:27:30 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 1)

United Arab Emirates pledges 24 aircraft to Libya operation, Qatar between 4 and 6 - AFP via BBC

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 06:52:13 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Iyad el Baghdadi, who has had a good group of contacts in Tripoli, tweeting:

Source says that Gaddafi attempted suicide and doctors are trying to resuscitate him. He says he has footage and trying to pass it across.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 06:52:54 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Well reliable sources said the same about Mubarak when things were going pearshaped.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 07:02:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

I'm not holding my breath.

The only reason I passed it along is because the guy has been the most reliable source I've found.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 07:04:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 2)

Is he in a coma yet?

Or won't that happen until his assets in Switzerland have been frozen?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 07:02:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

No idea.

It's more-or-less a rumor, at the moment.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 07:05:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

"It's not just him, it's his entire darn family"

No confirmation or evidence to back this up.

May be mis-information and/or wishful thinking.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 07:09:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 3)

OK, here is this bit o' info from Iyad el Baghdadi:

Let's not get carried away. This is a new source I just got introduced to. I can't vouch for him, but he says he's confident. Let's see.

h'mmm.

Me doubts have jumped to 11.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 07:17:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Link?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 07:22:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Sorry

here

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 07:31:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Gracias.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 07:35:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

ShababLibya, another good source, tweeting:

ALL, yes ALL Gaddafi forces in ZINTAN have joined the Feb17 revolution, Zintan now fully armed and ready

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 06:54:58 PM EST

Re: Libya (4.00 / 2)

This was ultimately what would doom Daffy. These guys aren't going to bet on the crazy old man when they can plainly see it's suicide.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 07:08:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

And especially not when the rebels clearly leave the door open for them to come over instead of taking revenge.

Who would you choose?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 07:10:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 2)

Let's not get carried too far by hope. There's still the Khamis and other armed units commanded by his sons as well as militia, mercenaries, and other armed pro-Gadaffi groups still running around but, yeah, we may be seeing the beginning of the end of the regime.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 07:15:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

first 12 hours after sunrise tomorrow will be significant for that you would think, those that are easy on which side to be on will have had their minds changed by a night of things going bang. depends how quickly they can find someone to surrender too.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 07:43:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

I may very well be right.

But I'm 'engaged' on the part of the revolution so ... wishful thinking & all that.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 07:51:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

er ... "You may very well be right"

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 07:51:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

thats why I think the next day important, if youve seen things attacked, and havent switched sides then, it shows a level of commitment to the government

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 07:59:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Yes, certainly.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 08:02:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

US source has told Al Jazeera the Libyan air defenses have been "severely damaged" by the Tomahawk attacks.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 07:07:21 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

BBC News - Live: Libya crisis

The Libyan government has demanded an urgent meeting of the UN Security Council, the AFP news agency reports.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 07:11:25 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

AFP: Libya says UN Security Council resolution is no longer valid

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 07:25:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

AJ's political analyst calling the regime "schizophrenic"

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 07:32:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Gaddafi forces moving bodies of those killed in clashes to sites bombed by coalition LibyaFeb17.com

05:29 Abdel, a doctor in the town of Misrata, Libya, about 200km east of Tripoli, tells BBC World television that Gaddafi loyalists have been moving the bodies of people killed in clashes between rebels and government forces to sites that have been bombed by the coalition to make it appear they have died in the strikes.

Quick News: "Reports of people being kidnapped to be used as human shields." "Bab Al-Aziziyah reported to be "crawling with people" "Foreign journalists brought to Bab Al-Aziziyah" (Bab Al-Aziziyah is Gadaffi's main military base and headquarters.)

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 11:56:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

BBC News - Live: Libya crisis

Libyan state television cites a senior security source as saying that Libya has decided to "absolve itself from taking responsibility for stemming illegal immigration to Europe".

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 08:02:06 PM EST

Oblig: (none / 0)

...approves.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 08:05:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Hate to say this ... you've got word misspelled there, old bean/chum/chappie/mate/me duck.

They said they would not be "repnosible" for stemming illegal immigration.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 08:27:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 2)

Gaddafi threathened to do this earlier. The southern wall of Fortress Europe is collapsing as the rebellion spreads.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 05:21:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

berlu is reassuring the italian people that daffy has no rockets powerful enough to punish italy with.

no one's mentioning WMD... do they know where daffy stores his nerve gas supplies?

increased air activity over central italy, though less than during the bosni kosovo times.

who sold him his nerve gas, also?

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 06:35:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 2)

Diplomat: France blocked any NATO agreement on airstrikes until the Paris meeting | Atlantic Council

From Steven Erlanger and David D. Kirkpatrick, the New York Times: Even though the leaders at the Paris summit meeting were united in supporting military action, there were signs of disagreement over how it would proceed.
Two senior Western diplomats said the Paris meeting, which was organized by [French President Nicolas] Sarkozy, may actually have delayed allied operations to stop Colonel [Muammar] Qaddafi's troops as they were approaching Benghazi. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to comment on the matter.
The initial French air sorties, which were not coordinated with other countries, angered some of the countries gathered at the summit meeting, according to a senior NATO-country diplomat. Information about the movement of Qaddafi troops toward Benghazi had been clear on Friday, but France blocked any NATO agreement on airstrikes until the Paris meeting, the diplomat said, suggesting that overflights could have begun Friday night before Mr. Qaddafi's troops reached the city.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 08:06:44 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Associated Press

Excerpts of letters Moammar Gadhafi sent to President Barack Obama and others involved in the international coalition supporting the uprising against him:

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 08:14:54 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

India Knight (indiaknight) on Twitter

Actually a surprising number of military actions sound like lapdancers. 'Hi, I'm Desert Fox,' etc.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 08:20:33 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

She works at the Desert Storm ranch in Nevada.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 08:33:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Apparently the name "Odyssey Dawn = Operation Darrag Zumtak" in Arabic and is causing some humor in the Arabic speaking world.

Anybody got any idea?

(Going AFC. Herself is finishing cooking dinner and setting off every smoke alarm in the house while about it.)

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 08:31:29 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 1)

have asked

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 08:58:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

and apart from lots of people telling me its funny in English, no answer

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 09:19:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

There might not be a reason. Most of the people I'm talking about are more than a little punch-drunk from the events over the past 32 days, so their "humor" threshold is a bit low, at the moment.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 09:28:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (none / 0)

Kind of late for the dawn of this particular "odyssey"!

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 11:58:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Libya (4.00 / 3)

Charlotte Gore (CharlotteGore) on Twitter

Looking at the news, I remarked 'oh my god, we're at war' before hastily correcting myself to, 'oh my god, we're at more war'

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 08:43:27 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 1)

Meanwhile, the Palestinians and Israelis are at it again.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 08:53:14 PM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

BBC News - Live: Libya crisis

A spokesman for the UK's Chief of Defence Staff says the Royal Air Force has "participated in a co-ordinated strike against Libyan Air Defence systems". "In addition to the Tomahawk Land Attack Missiles (TLAM) launched from a Trafalgar Class submarine, I can now confirm that the RAF has also launched Stormshadow missiles from a number of Tornado GR4 fast jets, which flew direct from RAF Marham as part of a coordinated coalition plan to enforce the resolution," a statement adds.

The British fast jets flew 4,828km (3,000 miles) from RAF Marham and back - the longest range bombing mission conducted by the RAF since the Falklands conflict, according to the Ministry of Defence. The operation was supported by VC10 and Tristar air-to-air refuelling aircraft as well as E3D Sentry and Sentinel surveillance aircraft

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sat Mar 19th, 2011 at 09:16:05 PM EST

Who's the new head of government? (none / 0)

Looting, Vengeance, Bribery, Corruption, lost oil production.

Align culture with our nature. Ot else!

by ormondotvos (ormond.otvosnospamgmialcon) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 04:03:24 AM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

seeing reports that an Italian ship has been captured in Tripoli harbour

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Sun Mar 20th, 2011 at 05:16:08 AM EST

Re: Libya (none / 0)

From n-tv.de newsticker: One of Gaddafi's sons has been killed. He died from injuries after a lebanese kamikaze fighterjet pilot had dropped himself on the site of Bab al-Asisija a few days ago.

Someone on this blog had explained that the Lebanon had been decisive in the support of the military intervention by the Arab League because they wanted to settle some earlier conflict.

Mission accomplished. ---

by Lily (put - lilyalmond - here <a> yahaah.france) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 07:24:21 AM EST

Five questions (none / 0)

Ulrich Ladurner's post on "Die Zeit"'s site poses five questions worth pondering:

What if the no fly zone doesn't work and Gadaffi takes Bengazhi anyway?
Flying air support for rebels in Bengazhi (indefinitely?) is not covered by the resolution. Or will they have to send in ground troops?

What if the rebels win and commit massacres in Tripolis?
The rebels are against Gadaffi. That's about the only thing we know. The West has a long history of supporting unsavory rebel groups such as the UCK in Kosovo and the Mujahedin in Afghanistan.

What happens if there is a military stalemate?
That could split the country. An inherently unstable situation. Wouldn't Gadaffi have to be chased out anyway with additional military power because of the uncertainty? Who wants to monitor Western and Eastern Libya for an indefinite time?

What if Libya drifts into anarchy?
Afghanistan in the 90's is the template. A failed state. Soon enough the Europeans would have to wonder: who is going to rebuild that place? Recent experiences show we're not very good at that.

Who is actually for this war?
NATO members are arguing among themselves. The US don't want to take the lead. Germany is staying out. Katar is sending four planes (where are they?). The Arab League (with all the remaining despots as members) gave the green light but immediately criticized the attacks. Only Cameron and Sarkozy are really hot for this war.

Allied attacks have so far held off loyalist troops from advancing on Benghazi. So the first question is more or less settled for now. But the long-term implications are all but nebulous. In all probability this will not end well.

_{Schengen is toast!}

by epochepoque on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 02:20:00 PM EST

Re: Five questions (none / 0)

Dislike for Qaddafi Gives Arabs a Point of Unity NYT

CAIRO -- With his brutal military assault on civilians, and his rantings about spiked Nescafé, Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi handed many leaders across the Arab world what had otherwise eluded them: A chance to side with the people while deflecting attention from their own citizens' call for democracy, political analysts around the region said. And they really do not like him.
Even Arab leaders most critical of the United States' intervention in the Middle East have reluctantly united behind the military intervention in Libya. That has given a boost to Arab leaders in places like Saudi Arabia who are at the same moment working to silence political opposition in their backyards.
"The Arab street reaction to the Western attacks on Libya has been warm," said Hilal Khasan, chairman of the department of political studies at American University of Beirut. "This is not Iraq."
....
"I see hypocrisy in everything the Arab leaders do, and I'm talking as a person of the Arab world," said Randa Habib, a political commentator in Jordan. "I wanted them to take such a decision. There were too many people being killed in Libya. That man is cuckoo."
This new and unpredictable tone seemed to partly explain the flip-flopping of Amr Moussa, the longtime secretary general of the Arab League who plans to run for the Egyptian presidency. Last week, the Arab League asked the United Nations to impose a no-fly zone in Libya, largely on humanitarian grounds. On Sunday, Mr. Moussa said military action there had gone too far. But he repeated his contention that the no-fly zone could not have been imposed were it not for the Arab League.

But concern about popular reaction forced Mousa to back off that position and re-state the Arab League's support for the NFZ. His new ambitions force him to be concerned about popular opinion.

"In a way, the Arab League is trying to follow the sentiment of the Arab street," said Shafeeq Ghabra, a political science professor at Kuwait University. "The street is now more in control. If we ever had an Arab street, this is the moment."
Many experts noted that that was itself a remarkable turn of events, given that the league had long been a special-interest group for the very leaders who had been pressed by their people to allow democratic change. At the very moment of the vote, some of those leaders were repressing their own citizens' calls for that change, especially in the Persian Gulf, where Saudi troops rolled into Bahrain to help crush a popular uprising.

The article notes that much of this has to do with Gadaffi personally and his relation with other Arab leaders:

There is arguably no Arab leader besides Colonel Qaddafi who might have been able to unite much of the region against him all at once -- though Algeria and Syria did not agree with the no-fly zone -- and empower the much-maligned Arab League, which is an institution often mocked by Arab commentators for failing to carry out its pronouncements. It was clear that those backing the no-fly zone, the analysts said, especially the king of Saudi Arabia and the emir of Qatar, most likely drew personal satisfaction from the effort to push Colonel Qaddafi from power, though they did not say so.
"This is not related actually to Qaddafi's attitude to his people or the way he is ruling Libya," Mr. Masry said. "It is related to his attitude. He was very unpredictable."
Saudi animosity runs deep. In 2004, Colonel Qaddafi was accused of being directly involved in a plot to assassinate King Abdullah, who was then the crown prince. Then in 2009, Colonel Qaddafi embarrassed the emir of Qatar, Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa al-Thani, and infuriated King Abdullah, during an Arab summit meeting in Doha, Qatar.
Colonel Qaddafi first denounced King Abdullah "as a British product and American ally," concluding by calling him a "liar." When Sheikh Hamad tried to quiet him, he said, "I am an international leader, the dean of Arab rulers, the king of kings of Africa and imam of Muslims, and my international status does not allow me to descend to a lower level."
At that point the sound was cut on the television broadcast and Colonel Qaddafi stormed out of the room, leaving a memory that surely made it easier for those leaders to endorse the no-fly zone, political analysts said.

Sweets to the sweet, I say.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 11:35:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Five questions (none / 0)

It seems that, for once, the actions of "The West" has the support of the Arab street. At the very least the military actions of the first three days and nights have forced Gadaffi to pull back from Bengazi, which he might well have taken without the actions and where he would almost certainly inflicted great loss of life had he succeeded. And by destroying many of his tanks and artillery and by disabling and/or suppressing his air units we have seriously weakened him. Except for Gadaffi apologists, that seems to be an almost wholly unmitigated good.

As for the rest of the uncertainties posed by the imposition of the NFZ and the ground attacks, nothing in life is certain. If Gadaffi manages to survive or if a new government runs amok, at least The West did what it could and did not stand by and allow a massacre when it had relatively low cost options to prevent it.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Mar 21st, 2011 at 11:49:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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