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"My generation"

by vbo Mon Aug 29th, 2011 at 08:45:49 AM EST


I have no comment but I hope you do...I could just cry.

If somebody can please put this video in here I do not know how.

((vemio 22123311)) -- of course spell vimeo correctly

aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Mon Aug 29th, 2011 at 12:04:39 PM EST
Thank you...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Mon Aug 29th, 2011 at 06:19:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I seem to remember something about less than lazy quote diaries being somewhat frowned upon.


aspiring to genteel poverty

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Mon Aug 29th, 2011 at 12:06:26 PM EST
Ahh this one is like a picture...telling 1000 words.
And it is also the best answer why UK (and soon others) (will)have riots."One who understands will know".
I am going to write on this topic and a lot, but first I need to get strength...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Mon Aug 29th, 2011 at 06:19:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
that is the diary you should post.

I agree with Edwin, much tho I appreciate this, it's really just an OT post

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed Aug 31st, 2011 at 01:10:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Let's first talk about Generation Y
I find stats here some controversial but I'll quote some:
This generation is also sometimes referred to as the Boomerang Generation or Peter Pan Generation, because of the members' perceived penchant for delaying some rites of passage into adulthood, longer periods than most generations before them. These labels were also a reference to a trend toward members living with their parents for longer than previous generations.[56]

Generation Y also saw the highest divorce rates of their parents, was the highest amount of children in foster care programs, and the highest amounts of child abuse cases in U.S. history.

Worldwide, Generation Y is considered slightly less religious than the generations before, and far less trusting of the major religious institutions... though they are more likely to be sceptical of religious institutions

As a group, Generation Y are said to be much closer to their parents than their parents' generation,

I wouldn't call it "closeness" I would rather call it dependency,
And why:
The primary cause of this increased trend can be defined in economic terms.[58] Economic crises, including the dot-com bubble in 2000, and the United States housing bubble that led to the Financial crisis of 2007-2010 have made paying market-level rent, or any rent, difficult for a generation riddled with high unemployment levels.[59]
However, economics is not the only explanation. Questions regarding a clear definition of what it means to be an adult also impacts a debate about delayed transitions into adulthood.
... some Millennials are delaying the transition from childhood to adulthood as a response to mistakes made by their parents. "In prior generations, you get married and you start a career and you do that immediately. What young people today are seeing is that approach has led to divorces, to people unhappy with their careers ... The majority want to get married [...] they just want to do it right the first time, the same thing with their careers."[60]

And time passes by and their chances are slimmer. I would call this "being afraid to bite in to the life"
Pairing with the economic situation which Generation Y is starting up in, jobs are simply taken by the Baby Boomers and Generation X. The need to keep working and the aging work-force keep members of Generation Y less employed than any other generation before them. This is not due to a lack of seizing the rites of passage, as they are more educated than most that came before them.[61]

Interesting point.
The rise of instant communication technologies made possible through use of the internet, such as email, texting, and IM and new media used through websites like YouTube and social networking sites like Facebook, MySpace, and Twitter, may explain the Millennials' reputation for being somewhat peer-oriented due to easier facilitation of communication through technology ... Expression and acceptance has been highly important to this generation. In well-developed nations,

As good as this may sound, this made them actually less communicative in real world, in my opinion. Yes they are peer-oriented and I do not find this particularly good because they are missing on wisdom and problem solving advices of older generation.
This also made them shy from real world and made them more exposed to fantasies of virtual (not actual) world.
innovations in technology mean the Millennials have access to more media on demand than any previous generation and have forced the media industry to adapt to new business models.
... Generation Y grew up in the aftermath of changes in musical culture which occurred during the 1990s and early 2000s.[72]

which describes the Millennial generation as "civic minded," rejecting the attitudes of the Baby Boomers and Generation X.[75] However Generation Y has also been described as entitled, individualistic and lazy, akin to the image of the Baby Boomers, due to their sheltered upbringing.[76][77]

Sheltered upbringing...I do believe that this is a mean mistake we/parents made. And this is what made them so dependant (not necessarily economically) on many levels . It's not (only) about them asking for parents help when in crises (this would be normal) but this made them incapable of making  right decisions  when in crises ...or making decisions at all. They are "sitting on the brim of the ocean waiting for tide to bring something in"...
Several governments have instituted major youth employment schemes out of fear of social unrest due to the dramatically increased rates of youth unemployment... In 2009 leading commentators began to worry about the long term social and economic effects of the unemployment.

This wide unemployment is going to be a killer.
The Millennials are sometimes called the "Trophy Generation", or "Trophy Kids,"[84] a term that reflects the trend in competitive sports, as well as many other aspects of life, where mere participation is frequently enough for a reward. It has been reported that this is an issue in corporate environments.[84] Some employers are concerned that Millennials have too great expectations from the workplace.[85] Studies predict that Generation Y will switch jobs frequently, holding far more than Generation X due to their great expectations.[86] To address these new challenges, many large firms are currently studying the social and behaviorial patterns of Millennials and are trying to devise programs that decrease intergenerational estrangement, and increase relationships of reciprocal understanding between older employees and Millennials, while at the same time making Millennials more comfortable.

Great expectations...but... "mere participation is frequently enough for a reward". I so feel that this is big time our/parents fault. BUT also a fault of celebrity culture that is "nourished" so nicely in western (but lately also in other) societies.

This is a little bit to chew on for the moment. But we need to have a few words about Generation X too in this context.
More than 3 paragraphs quotation but I couldn't make it different...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Mon Aug 29th, 2011 at 09:45:58 PM EST
Any time I see an article saying "xxx is the worst it's been in U.S. history," I wonder how well they verified their history.

Young people living at home is not new, it's the conventional way of doing things. What's "different" is that last few decades where it went the other way and people kicked out their kids when they hit eighteen.

Youth unemployment isn't new, either. Or changes in technology driving changes in business models.

I'm not arguing your observations, I'm expressing frustration about ignoring how lousy things were back in the good old days and how people should not look at the past through rose-colored glasses.

by asdf on Wed Aug 31st, 2011 at 08:03:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"mere participation is frequently enough for a reward". I so feel that this is big time our/parents fault.

i think this was an over-reaction to the hard, judgmental attitude so many baby boomers' parents had, and were consequently raised with, causing them (us) low self esteem.

this caused our generation of BB's to act out to insane levels, glutting ourselves on hedonism.  think jim morrison as role model, elvis on different drugs.

in music it's like the difference between artists like bonnie raitt, jackson browne, ry cooder using rock to enlighten people and give them some righteous entertainment at the same time, morphing into the dark side of maroons chewing off chicken heads on stage, making up like effete fops or vampires, pretending to consort with the devil, chucking tellies out of hotel windows and generally behaving like overgrown teenagers with arrested development and a poseur hate-on for the world, especially all authority.

huge difference... as the music went, so followed society.

then the nihilistic doom of punk, the deathrattle of thrash metal, the grinding monotony of rap, the febrile chatterings and bleepings of ambient house garridge d'n'b techno corporate rebel-my-ass rock you freaking name it...

death by a billion bytes!

sorry for the rant. back to your point. yes telling kids they're unconditionally perfect, praising them with no criticism, coddling their egos, no clear boundaries: all these lead to difficult confrontations with reality once the bubble bursts.

the 60's raised a lot of hopes for serious change, but just like with obama, these hopes have largely been vapourware. we were drunk with possibilities and the sheer numbers of our generation's wave, innocently trusting good faith would excuse all our ignorance, and while instinctively distrusting the system, and thus gleefully willing its demise sometimes, we hadn't done much homework and had no better system to raise in its place. so many distinguished dreams sputtered out of gas and fell by the wayside, there is a lot of buried sadness in our generation about this. we were the first raised on images as much as reality, TV was new, and had us by the short and curlies right away.

but a lot of joy, in all the crazy waste and confusion. definitely a tendency to spoil the next generation of kids though, either by under- or over- parenting. my perception of gen Y is they're underfed with idealism, there's a sort of void in the back of the eyes in that dept, again this is probably a reaction to idealism OD in the boomers when they were young and the future still seemed rosier.

mysteriously, some young people grow up balanced and focussed, aware of how crucially serious many situations have become, but not letting that rob them of their natural optimism and good attitude. great kudos to their parents... there's no more responsible job in all of creation. i remain hopeful on this count. they have to work around the steaming pile their ancestors left them, just like we did with the cold war and its attendant terrors, and generational PTSD.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Aug 31st, 2011 at 08:45:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This program last night inspired me to talk about this topic. If you have time watch it:


It is about Australian situation but it is also so much about all of you.
Especially pay attention to Malalai Joya , one brave young Afghan woman (Former Afghan parliamentarian and writer) and what she has to say about your/our occupation...
And also Omar Musa "slam poet and rapper"...as a member of young generation and artist...
Interesting stuff.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Mon Aug 29th, 2011 at 10:20:31 PM EST
There is one thing about this generation that I like and at the same time do not like (especially on the personal level) and that's that they are telling it like it is - in your face. There are those ignorant enough to believe (like that girl in this program) that USA and other solders are in Afghanistan to build hospitals and school and protect women and children...but they are rare.
My generation (especially in ex YU) had only chance to protest trough music and art because no one would even ask us for our opinion about politics. Maybe it was a little better in western countries but I am not sure. I remember tho protests against Vietnam War and its echo in music and art. Interestingly this generation is not that much in to real political protests (except when it's about them, like students about education etc.).

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Mon Aug 29th, 2011 at 11:23:27 PM EST
Your generation could complain about the locusts at will. You are entitled to do so.

The whatever generation is nothing more than a reflection of the one that raised it and inherited conditions. My condolences.

It is sobering to think that the "Great generation" is the one after a war. It almost seems that humans are incapable of carrying memories over generations. We only do right after direct/immediate confrontation with massive disaster?

by cagatacos on Tue Aug 30th, 2011 at 12:12:14 PM EST
We only do right after direct/immediate confrontation with massive disaster?  

Yeah...looks like that's truth. Maybe because we have to be reminded what is important in life...When we see the entire material world in "ashes" and we come to grip that we are humans...and that to be alive is all that counts.

The whatever generation is nothing more than a reflection of the one that raised it and inherited conditions. My condolences.

Well I don't think it's the whole truth. Of course we (previous generation) are very important but I am not willing to take whole responsibility. When I was young I was also blaming my parents for everything that went wrong in my life. When I grew up I found out that they were only humans and they did their best (to their ability).Yes they made mistakes, but I made my mistakes too...we are not perfect. Once I stopped blaming them I took responsibility for my own life. That's called adulthood. Problem is that this new generation REFUSE to mature and take responsibility. It is some kind of protest but these prolonged tantrums are not going to help them.
Their great expectations are not met in real world and they can't deal with it as adults.
I admit that we passed one very ugly world on them tho...But much of it was not our making only but probably making of previous generation too. And then also much of it was not in our power as individuals as they are finding out it's not in their power too.
As a society we lost track to humanity or even worse we took wrong track. As we see now, we feel good when our armies "liberate" nations from dictators not even counting the cost for those nations...Those people there died in masses and millions of families are ruined for life. If so, this need to be their choice not ours. Not to mention that our reasons for "liberating" them are questionable.
They (this new generation) is to change the world to their liking but I suppose the task is so big so they are either becoming part of that ugly picture or totally avoid to participate.
Also we / parents can't take responsibility for vicious propaganda, brain washing and wrong messages that they are feeding all of us trough TV and other media.
All we can do is to try to direct them to use their own brain. Not easy task too.
As we are now having this "no choice" democracy one can say that honest thinking people should take part in politics instead of complaining but hell I tried it and it's not working. Political parties have their own dynamic and structures that can't be broken.
So we do what we can. And it's only lately thanks to internet that we can have our voices heard at least among those with similar views. Very rarely some wise people can enter mass media and that's probably just to give us false impression that democracy is working.
We are swimming in the ocean of crap trough the media that is working hard to form "public opinion" to the liking of those in power and it is hurting us as people and also is making our societies deviant.
Family ties are not strong any more in this world of consumerism so I am not so sure what real influence families have nowadays. I remember how I liked to talk to my dad about politics and other stuff, I really enjoyed it and learned a lot. But even when I was married my father would visit us at least once a week. Today families gather for Christmas parties.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Tue Aug 30th, 2011 at 09:59:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"To be alive is all that counts."  ?

Not much of a standard.

What's your next step up?

Align culture with our nature. Ot else!

by ormondotvos (ormond.otvosnospamgmialcon) on Thu Sep 1st, 2011 at 03:22:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"To be alive is all that counts."  ?

Not that we are aware of it all the time. It's only so clear when you lose someone dear. And in wars people lose their dear...people needlessly die...than when war is over everything material will be built again but those dead will not come back...ever...and we feel loss...our lives are not to be the same ever again because piece of us is missing. Even without war if you lose dear relative or friend (especially young one) you'll know what I am talking about...
Such a loss changes totally your perception in life...That's why after catastrophe we tend to be more human, generous and consider others.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Thu Sep 1st, 2011 at 05:11:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think one should be cautious about generational generalisations. They often hide as much as they illuminate.

What I think is interesting to ponder, is much of the generational difference discussed in this diary that is a response to changing living conditions. Now, I know Sweden better then the rest of the world, but I do know that Sweden since abandoning full employment has pushed up the age of real adulthood significantly. Age of mother for first child has gone from low 20ies to 29 in just two decades. Age of permanently leaving home is increasing continously. This of course is related to unemployment, and temporary employment forms that in practise leave you vulnerable and less protected by a welfare system that is still built on the premise that everyone has a regular employment.

So, in a situation where society tells you that you will not be able to be a real adult until you push 30, what can one do?

One can

  • Embrace it. An extra decade as youth, be young, have fun and depend on your parents if things go bad.
  • Fight the system. You have time and the politicians hate you, so join a movement that hates the politicians. Optional movements depend on time and place.
  • Overcome the system. Show the bastards and your irresponsible generational brethren by finding a way through. Find a safe career by education, timing and luck or start your own company. Or hey, there are often openings as propaganda shills, contact your local EPP for internships that gives the right connections. If this fails, there is always...
  • Depression. You can always become depressed and while away your time on the internet. Maybe become an angry commenter on a blog?

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Wed Aug 31st, 2011 at 04:05:45 PM EST
Yes from my prospection there is not much to be done. Especially in this era of austerity and unemployment (of the parents too) where education is becoming more and more unaffordable. And with a new technology there are more and more professions that are disappearing fast especially for those without qualifications.
Generalisation is of course not good but when those bad things were isolated there was not need to be aware of the problem on a social level, it was enough for professionals to deal with it on individual level. As they are becoming brother for this generation the awareness is emerging trough media, culture and of course trough unfortunate events like UK riots. People (and especially in UK after riots) tend to believe that the group of youngsters that rioted is an isolated group with specific problems that are not to be applied on brother young generation. I don't think so. It is not just about unemployment, I believe. This problem about prolonged childhood and irresponsible behaviour seems to be found in those employed too.
What is striking for me is broad kind of depression and lack of hope in young people that makes them run from reality (alcohol, drugs, pills, promiscuity etc.).And while this kind of behaviour used to be characteristic for very young previously, now it is taking place in young adults too.
Yes world changed rapidly lately and it seems like we/parents prepared our children for the world that we used to know and it's not there. While we are making our way out of this confusion by retiring our kids are entering not really prepared. I do not know...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Wed Aug 31st, 2011 at 06:54:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Education is getting cheaper and cheaper. Now you need a computer and internet access.

khanacademy, anyone? MIT Online courses? Wikipedia?

Come on.

Align culture with our nature. Ot else!

by ormondotvos (ormond.otvosnospamgmialcon) on Thu Sep 1st, 2011 at 03:23:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I am talking about serious university education...It costs a lot ,in some cases like medicine or dentistry, it's like a mortgage and you need to pay it back.Luckaly here in Australia it's interest free , I think. Not to mention that for quite a few years you are not able to work (except some part time for pocket money).It is expensive and you need to be devoted and to give up a lot to go all trough all the levels. Right now my daughter can't afford to stop working and does her master.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Thu Sep 1st, 2011 at 04:32:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the difference is between learning the material and having the certification.

It's really hard to learn the material, for one thing. Reading a history book or a calculus book by yourself is not at all the same as taking a class with a teacher. But there are free online classes with teachers if you have sufficient motivation.

But in any case if you don't have the official degree then you're still not in a good situation. Part of schooling is the socialization that goes along with it--living away from home in a dormitory, doing your own homework, not getting distracted--these are tests that come along with formal schooling. And then when you've proven that you can grind out a ten page paper regurgitating what the professor said, then you have been sufficiently lobotomized to work in the real world. That's what the degree paper shows.

by asdf on Thu Sep 1st, 2011 at 01:06:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are serious limitation (sometimes by law or requirements of professional associations) if you don't have formal degree. So you need it no matter what your knowledge may be. There are professions that would not ask for certification that much but not many of them are "serious".
Education here in Australia is a lucrative industry with all those foreign students that have to pay double or more of what Australians are paying. They actually made "carrot" for foreign students because once they complete their education here and if they manage to find job they will be granted permanent residency. And in this "basket" you could find almost any kind of education (short courses, even for hairdressers etc.).It has been change now and they are allowing just serious professions that are needed here. Industry suffered and some private schools have been closed.
Lately I hear that Chinese and other Asians now prefer to go and study in USA ,cost wise,  because it is becoming too expensive here (Australian dollar too strong and USA dollar is weak recently).

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Thu Sep 1st, 2011 at 08:33:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
People from all over the world like to come to the U.S. to study. Partly because our streets are paved with gold and we are the Land Of The Free, but mostly because a degree from Harvard or MIT or Stanford or whatever is like a medal of honor.

They miss the point, of course. The whole thing about Harvard and the other Ivy League schools (and I assume similarly prestigious schools in other countries) is that you make contacts that will be valuable in later life. You might not learn much economics, but having a room-mate who is destined to be the Secretary of the Treasury in 30 years' time is a huge advantage.

And the problem for the foreign students is that they are, well, foreign. To fit in at Harvard/Yale/Princeton/etc. you need to have gone to the right prep school first. And have gone to the right church, and been in the right yacht club as a young tyke. The Chatham Yacht Club on Cape Cod is not a bad place to start... You will have of course arranged to have a grandfather on the nomination committee...

by asdf on Fri Sep 2nd, 2011 at 12:10:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah...but I am not talking about children of the rich people that were and will find their way to Harvard and the other Ivy League schools anyway. I am talking about a bit better then average Chinese and Indian families capable to pay for their child education abroad. They used to come to Australia in masses. Australia has quite a few very good public, state Universities and not that many of private ones.

The whole thing about Harvard and the other Ivy League schools (and I assume similarly prestigious schools in other countries) is that you make contacts that will be valuable in later life.

That's right...same with high schools here. Actually people here spend a fortune to put their kids trough private secondary schools for that reason. Once they start university parents feel massive relief.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Fri Sep 2nd, 2011 at 01:11:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They have come and still do come to the U.S. in masses, across the entire range of regular colleges. (Not so much the two year schools.)

The University of Colorado, for example, gets the bulk of its funding from out of state tuition which is almost as expensive as an Ivy. They are gradually turning the big state colleges into private schools.


by asdf on Fri Sep 2nd, 2011 at 02:38:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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