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Gysi on the EU "rescue package" for Greece

by DoDo Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 05:08:02 AM EST

On Monday, the lower house of Germany's federal parliament (Bundestag) voted on the second EU debt-slavery/debtor bailout for Greece. The media focused on the failure of the government parties – chancellor Angela Merkel's Christian Democrats (CDU), their Bavarian sister party the Christian Socialists (CSU), and the (neo)liberal Free Democrats (FDP) – to achieve the so-called chancellor majority, that is, the absolute majority of all members of parliament (present or absent). The Against vote of four FDP and 13 CDU/CSU voters (and one resp. two Abstentions) is most likely the Eurosceptic vote, emboldened by arch-conservative federal interior minister Hans-Peter Friedrich (CSU), who broke with the party line and called for tossing Greece from the Euro.

While it's one question for whatever reasons conservatives voted For or Against, the actual target of the 'bailout' funds, and the anti-social and anti-democratic strings attached to the 'rescue package' should have been in the focus for the three left-of-centre opposition parties. Yet, two of them, the Social Democrats (SPD) and the Greens, voted along with the government majority. Only the third, the hard-left Left Party, made a clear stand against.

It's not like the arguments weren't there. In the debate before the vote, Left Party faction leader Gregor Gysi picked the 'rescue package' apart in his address, comparing it to the post-WWI peace dictate of the victors at Versailles, and calling for an equivalent of the Marshall Plan instead. He didn't mention the post-WWII debt forgiveness for West Germany or the market effect of Merkel's verbal disregard for EU decisions already taken, didn't explicitly mention trade imbalances or the imposition of external institutions and bureaucracies, and glossed over the difference between state-guaranteed loans and direct support, but still said a lot in 13 minutes. It was also directed at the other left-of-centre parties, who tried their best to miss the point in heckles and one interjection (even while government MPs and ministers were more into showing stony faces), and IMHO that's the really worrisome part. Below the video; below the fold, a complete translation of the official transcript.

Dr. Gregor Gysi (DIE LINKE): Herr Präsident! Meine Damen und Herren! Frau Bundeskanzlerin, im ersten Satz Ihrer Rede haben Sie gesagt, es handele sich um eine Staatsschuldenkrise. Ich finde, das ist nicht die Wahrheit. Die Wahrheit ist, dass die Staatsschulden zugenommen haben, als wir eine Finanzkrise, ausgelöst durch Banken und Spekulanten, hatten. Das müssten Sie hinzufügen. Ansonsten denkt man, die Staaten seien schuld. Nein, erst einmal sind es die Banken und Spekulanten, auf die die Staaten allerdings völlig falsch reagieren. Dr. Gregor Gysi (Left Party): Mr. Speaker! Ladies and gentlemen! Ms. Chancellor, in the first sentence of your speech you said, there is a sovereign debt crisis. I think this is not the truth. The truth is that the national debt has increased when we had a financial crisis caused by banks and speculators. You need to add this. Otherwise, you'd think the states are to blame. No, first of all it is the bankers and speculators, something the states react to in a completely wrong way, however.
(Beifall bei der LINKEN)(Applause from the Left Party)
Beim ersten Rettungspaket ging es um 110 Milliarden Euro; das war im Mai 2010. Man muss heute sagen: Das erste Rettungspaket ist gescheitert. Das Ziel war damals, dass Griechenland bis 2014 wieder auf eigenen Kreditbeinen steht. Davon ist heute überhaupt keine Rede mehr. Ich möchte dies nur einmal erwähnen.The first bailout was 110 billion euros; that was in May 2010. You have to say today: the first bailout has failed. The goal at the time to put Greece back on its own credit feet by 2014. No one talks about this any more today. I want to mention this only once.
Nun soll das zweite Rettungspaket beschlossen werden; es ist zwar ein falscher Begriff, aber das tut hier nichts zur Sache. Es geht um weitere 165 Milliarden Euro. Hinzu kommen 24,4 Milliarden Euro aus dem ersten Rettungspaket, die noch nicht verbraucht wurden. 35 Milliarden Euro, die die Verluste von Banken ausgleichen sollen, kommen ebenfalls hinzu. Auch das zahlen die Steuerzahlerinnen und Steuerzahler. Wie lautet das Ziel jetzt? Die Schulden sollen bis zum Jahr 2020 von 164 Prozent auf 120 Prozent der Wirtschaftsleistung abgebaut werden. Das ist völlig unrealistisch.Now the second rescue package is to be adopted; it is a misnomer, but that's beside the point. It's about a further 165 billion euros. Added to that are 24.4 billion euros from the first rescue package which were not consumed. 35 billion euros to help offset the losses of banks are added as well. That's paid by the taxpayers too. What is the goal now? Debts should be reduced from 164 percent to 120 percent of the economic output by 2020. This is totally unrealistic.
(Beifall bei der LINKEN)(Applause from the Left Party)
Die Überwachungstroika - - Übrigens, Herr Brüderle, Sie sprechen das Wort ,,Troika" richtig aus, während es die meisten in der Union falsch aussprechen. Man sagt nicht Tro-i-ka; denn das Wort kommt aus dem Russischen. Fragen Sie die Bundeskanzlerin; sie wird mir recht geben.The monitoring troika - by the way, Mr. [Rainer] Brüderle [FDP faction leader], you pronounce the word "troika" correctly, while most in the CDU/CSU don't. You don't say tro-ee-ka, because the word comes from Russian. Ask the Chancellor, she will agree with me.
(Beifall bei der LINKEN)(Applause from the Left Party)
Abgesehen davon, die Überwachungstroika glaubt selber nicht an einen solchen Schuldenabbau, wie man einem internen Papier entnehmen kann.Apart from that, the monitoring troika does not believe in such a debt reduction itself, as can be seen from an internal document.
Das Rettungspaket ist also auch diesmal nicht für die Griechinnen und Griechen geschnürt, sondern ausschließlich für Banken, Vermögensanleger und Hedgefonds. Sie bekommen das Geld, und kein anderer.That is, this time again, the rescue package wasn't put together for the Greeks, but only for banks, property investors and hedge funds. They get the money and no one else.
Außerdem haben die Europäische Zentralbank und auch die nationalen Notenbanken griechische Staatsanleihen für 70 Milliarden Euro von den Privatbanken aufgekauft. Das sind - es tut mir leid, Frau Bundeskanzlerin - Euro-Bonds. Weil diese Staatsanleihen entweder unserer Notenbank oder der Europäischen Zentralbank gehören, haften dafür allein die Steuerzahlerinnen und Steuerzahler der Euro-Zone und in besonderem Maße die deutschen Steuerzahlerinnen und Steuerzahler.In addition, the European Central Bank and national central banks bought Greek government bonds from private banks for 70 billion euros. These are - I'm sorry, Ms. Chancellor - Eurobonds. For the reason that these bonds belong to either our central bank or the European Central Bank, solely the tax payers of the Eurozone and particularly the German tax payers are liable for them.
Ich habe es einmal ausgerechnet, Frau Bundeskanzlerin: Wenn wir alles zusammennehmen - beide Rettungspakete und die Euro-Bonds -, dann geht es um ein -Gesamtpaket in Höhe von 345 Milliarden Euro. Die Deutschen haften in einem Umfang von 100 Milliarden Euro. Wenn wir wenigstens sagen könnten, dass wir dadurch Griechenland helfen würden, dann machte das Ganze Sinn. Aber wir helfen Griechenland nicht mit einem einzigen Euro. Insofern setzen wir das Geld in den Sand. Das gilt sowohl für Griechenland als auch für Deutschland.Ms. Chancellor, I once calculated this: if we sum it all up - both bailouts and the Eurobonds -, then we face a total package worth 345 billion euros. The Germans are liable for an amount of 100 billion euros. If we could at least say that we would help Greece with this, then the whole thing would make sense. But we do not help Greece with a single euro. In this respect, we put the money into the sand. This applies both for Greece and for Germany.
(Beifall bei der LINKEN)(Applause from the Left Party)
Ich habe es schon gesagt: Auch die 165 Milliarden Euro werden für die drohenden Verluste der privaten Banken und Hedgefonds eingesetzt. Alles wird sozialisiert, und die Steuerzahlerinnen und Steuerzahler haften dafür.I've said it before: The 165 billion euros [of the second package] will be used for the threatening losses of private banks and hedge funds. Everything will be socialized, and the taxpayers will be liable.
(Sigmar Gabriel [SPD]: Für Sozialisierung seid ihr doch auch!)(Sigmar Gabriel [SPD] [chairman]: But you are for socialisation, too!)
Außerdem kommt Folgendes hinzu, was hier so gut wie gar nicht thematisiert wird: Weihnachten 2011 hat die Europäische Zentralbank den großen Privatbanken in Europa ein Darlehen von 500 Milliarden Euro zu dem traumhaften Zinssatz von 1 Prozent gewährt - und das Ganze für drei Jahre. Jetzt bekommen die großen privaten Banken von der Europäischen Zentralbank noch einmal 500 Milliarden Euro, wieder für 1 Prozent und wieder für drei Jahre. Das ist doch abenteuerlich: 1 Billion Euro nur für die Liquidität der Banken. Kein Mensch fragt, woher das Geld kommt. Es wird doch gedruckt, Frau Bundeskanzlerin; um es einmal im Klartext zu sagen. Woher wollen Sie es denn sonst nehmen?Ad to that the following, which is practically not discussed at all: during Christmas 2011, the European Central Bank granted Europe's large private banks a loan of 500 billion euros at the dreamlike interest rate of 1 percent - and the whole thing for three years. Now the big private banks receive another 500 billion euros from the European Central Bank, again for 1 percent and again for three years. That's an adventure: one trillion euros for the liquidity of banks only. No one will ask, where does the money come from. It will be printed, Ms. Chancellor, to put it in plain text for once. Where else would you take it from?
(Beifall bei der LINKEN)(Applause from the Left Party)
Die Frechheit besteht doch darin, dass die Banken im Geld schwimmen. Wenn sie jetzt Staatsanleihen zum Beispiel von Irland, Portugal oder Spanien kaufen, dann verlangen sie mindestens 3 bis 4 Prozent Zinsen. Aber sie müssen nur 1 Prozent Zinsen zahlen. Was ist mit den Bürgerinnen und Bürgern? Wenn sie ihren Dispokredit in Anspruch nehmen, dann müssen sie 13 oder 18 Prozent Zinsen zahlen. Aber die Banken zahlen an uns nur 1 Prozent. Das ist eine Unverschämtheit, um es einmal klipp und klar zu sagen.The insolence is in the fact that the banks are flush with cash. If, for example, they buy government bonds of Ireland, Portugal or Spain as of now, they ask for at least 3 to 4 percent interest. But they only have to pay 1 percent interest. What about the citizens? If they take a line of credit, then they have to pay 13 or 18 percent interest. But the banks pay us only 1 percent. This is an outrage, to say it loud and clear for once.
(Beifall bei der LINKEN)(Applause from the Left Party)
Es geht auch um eine schwerwiegende Verletzung des Eigentumsrechts. Jetzt wundern Sie sich sicher, dass ich die Verletzung des Eigentumsrechts rüge. Aber das mache ich. Ich will es Ihnen erklären: Normalerweise haftet jede Eigentümerin und jeder Eigentümer für ihr oder sein Eigentum. Das heißt, man kann Gewinn daraus erzielen, aber wenn man Verluste oder Schulden hat, haftet man auch dafür. Das gilt für jede Bürgerin und jeden Bürger sowie für sämtliche Wirtschaftsunternehmen.There is also a gross violation of property rights. Now you're surely wondering that I am challenging the violation of property rights. But I am doing that. I will explain it to you: Normally, each owner is liable for his or her property. That means you can make profit from it, but if you have losses or debts, you will be liable, too. This applies to every citizen and for all businesses.
Fragen Sie einmal einen Bäckermeister, der Schulden hat, ob er sich an die Regierung wenden kann und sie ihm dann einen zinsgünstigen Kredit zu 1 Prozent gibt, damit er das Ganze zurückzahlen kann.Just ask a baker who is in debt whether he can turn to the government and then get a low-interest loan at 1 percent, so that he can repay the whole thing.
(Jürgen Trittin [BÜNDNIS 90/DIE GRÜNEN]: Fragen Sie einmal die Bäckerei Müller im Freistaat Bayern!)(Jürgen Trittin [Greens] [faction co-leader]: Just ask the bakery Müller in the free state of Bavaria! [subject of a recent food safety scandal])
Fragen Sie einmal den Eigentümer eines Grundstücks, ob er eine solche Chance hat. Die Einzigen, die überhaupt kein Risiko eingehen, sind die Banken; denn sie bekommen immer die Gewinne und die Profite, haften aber niemals für die Schulden, weil das immer die Steuerzahlerinnen und Steuerzahler übernehmen. Das verletzt das Eigentumsrecht schwerwiegend.Just ask a real estate owner whether he has such an opportunity. The only people who took absolutely no risk are the banks, because they always get the profits but are never liable for debts[sic! he meant losses], because that is always assumed by the tax payers. This seriously violates property rights.
(Beifall bei der LINKEN)(Applause from the Left Party)
Ich darf daran erinnern: 480 Milliarden Euro haben wir in einem Rettungsschirm für die Banken zur Verfügung gestellt. Darüber redet ja schon keiner mehr, weil es drei Jahre her ist. Jetzt wird der Rettungsschirm wiederbelebt, es wird wieder Geld daraus gezahlt.May I remind you: we provided 480 billion euros in a bailout for the banks. No one talks about this anymore because it was three years ago. Now this bailout fund is revived, money is again paid out from it.
Ich habe bereits von der 1 Billion Euro gesprochen, die um Weihnachten und jetzt, im Februar, den Banken gewährt wurde. Man muss sich einmal überlegen, welche Beträge in die Banken fließen. Für all das haften die Steuerzahlerinnen und Steuerzahler. Das ist eine Unverschämtheit und zerstört übrigens auch das gesamte Wirtschaftssystem. Wir brauchen keine Banken, die sich jedes Risiko leisten können, weil für jeden Verlust die Steuerzahlerinnen und Steuerzahler haften und nicht sie selbst.I have already spoken of the 1 trillion euros which was granted to the banks during Christmas and now in February. You have to stop and contemplate the amounts of money flowing into the banks. For all that, the taxpayers are liable. This is an outrage, and incidentally, it also destroys the entire economic system. We do not need banks which can afford any risk because taxpayers are liable for every loss incurred and not they themselves.
(Beifall bei der LINKEN)(Applause from the Left Party)
Deshalb ist unsere Forderung völlig berechtigt: Wenn die Steuerzahlerinnen und Steuerzahler schon sämtliche Schulden der Banken bezahlen, dann müssen diese öffentlich-rechtliches Eigentum werden. Ich möchte, dass die Steuerzahlerinnen und Steuerzahler dann auch die Gewinne und die Profite bekommen - und nicht nur die Schulden. Genau das muss sich ändern.Therefore, our demand is fully justified: if taxpayers already pay for all debts of the banks then they must become publicly-owned. I would like that the taxpayers then also get the profits - and not just the debt. That's exactly what needs to change.
(Beifall bei der LINKEN)(Applause from the Left Party)
Außerdem sind die großen privaten Banken zu groß. Wir müssen sie verkleinern. Ich nenne Ihnen nur einen Grund: Frau Kohl, die abends im Fernsehen von der Börse berichtet, sagte zu mir bei Jauch: Wenn Sie deutscher Kanzler wären - ich räume ein, eine unwahrscheinliche Vorstellung; sie hat es aber gesagt -,In addition, the large private banks are too big. We must shrink them. I will give you only one reason: In the [evening political talk show of host Günther] Jauch, Ms. [Anja] Kohl, who reports on the stock market on evening television, said to me: Would you be the German Chancellor - I admit, an unlikely idea, but she did say it -,
(Dr. Gesine Lötzsch [DIE LINKE]: Gute Idee! - Dr. Frank-Walter Steinmeier [SPD]: Gott behüte!)(Dr. Gesine Lötzsch [Left Party] [co-chairman]: Good idea! - Dr. Frank-Walter Steinmeier [SPD] [faction leader]: God forbid!)
müssten auch Sie die Deutsche Bank kurz vor einer Insolvenz retten....you would also have to save Deutsche Bank shortly before a bankruptcy.
(Jürgen Trittin [BÜNDNIS 90/DIE GRÜNEN]: Die Frau hat recht! Das sollte Ihnen zu denken geben!)(Jürgen Trittin [Greens]: The woman's right! That should give you something to think about!)
Da sagte ich: Daran sehen Sie, dass sie zu mächtig ist.I say on this: That shows you that it [DB] is too powerful.
Wieso sind wir alle erpressbar? Wir müssen die Banken verkleinern. Auch eine Bank muss in Insolvenz gehen können. Wir können immer noch die Sparguthaben der Leute retten, aber wir müssen nicht die Bank retten. Wenn wir das müssen, dann ist sie zu mächtig. Deshalb sage ich: verkleinern, unbedingt regulieren und öffentlich-rechtlich gestalten - so wie die Sparkassen. Aber nicht wie die Landesbanken; denn die waren gegenüber den Finanzministern weisungsgebunden. Das will ich nicht. Ich will, dass sie wie die Sparkassen ausgestaltet werden. Mit diesen hatten wir in der Krise nicht die geringsten Schwierigkeiten. Sie sind öffentlich-rechtlich und sehr sinnvoll.Why are we all vulnerable to blackmail? We must shrink the banks. A bank must be able to go into bankruptcy, too. We can still save the savings of people, but we do not have to save the bank. If we have to do that, then it is too powerful. That's why I say: shrink, regulate by all means, and put under public law - just like savings banks. But not like the Landesbanken (the public banks of the federal states), because those are obligated to follow instructions from the finance ministers. I do not want that. I want them to be designed like the savings banks. We had no difficulties at all with those in this crisis. They are under public law and make a lot of sense.
(Beifall bei der LINKEN)(Applause from the Left Party)
Jetzt komme ich noch einmal zum Paket für Griechenland. Das, was Sie in diesem Zusammenhang verlangen, ist derart unsozial, dass es in mir mehr als Erstaunen auslöst. Wie Sie, Herr Brüderle, in diesem Zusammenhang von einem Wohlstandsstaat sprechen können, zeugt von abenteuerlicher Arroganz.Now I return to the package for Greece. What you demand in this context is so antisocial that it elicits more than surprise in me. When you, Mr. Brüderle, can talk of a welfare state in this context, that is evidence of a bizarre arrogance.
(Beifall bei der LINKEN sowie bei Abgeordneten der SPD)(Applause from the Left as well as members of the SPD)
Was machen wir denn? Wir sagen: Der Mindestlohn in Griechenland muss von 751 Euro auf 586 Euro gekürzt werden. Das ist für Sie ein Wohlstandsstaat? Die Löhne müssen um 22 Prozent gekürzt werden. 15 000 Menschen müssen in diesem Jahr und 150 000 Menschen müssen bis 2014 aus dem öffentlichen Dienst entlassen werden. Die Renten sollen in den nächsten drei Jahren um 14 Milliarden Euro gekürzt werden. Und da sprechen Sie hier von einem Wohlstandsstaat?What are we we doing after all? We say: The minimum wage in Greece must be cut from 751 euro to 586 euro. This is a welfare state for you? The wages must be reduced by 22 percent. 15,000 people this year and 150 000 people by 2014 have to be laid off from civil service. Pensions have to be cut by 14 billion euros over the next three years. And here you are talking about a welfare state?
(Zuruf von der LINKEN: Pfui!)(Shout from the Left: Boo!)
Die Konsequenzen der bisherigen Politik, der Kürzung von Löhnen, Renten und Sozialleistungen sowie der Privatisierungen, sind die folgenden: Seit drei Jahren gibt es eine Wirtschaftskrise. Es gibt einen Rückgang der Investitionen in Griechenland um 50 Prozent. Die Arbeitslosigkeit ist von 9 Prozent auf 21 Prozent gestiegen. Die Jugendarbeitslosigkeit ist auf 50 Prozent gestiegen. Es gibt weniger Steuereinnahmen und ein Minuswachstum. Und Sie, Frau Bundeskanzlerin, sprechen von Fortschritten. Welche Fortschritte in Griechenland sind denn damit verbunden? Es gibt doch nicht einen einzigen Fortschritt.The consequences of the present policies, the reduction of wages, pensions and benefits and the privatization, are as follows: there is an economic crisis for three years now. There is a 50 percent decline in investment. Unemployment has risen from 9 percent to 21 percent. Youth unemployment has risen to 50 percent. There is less tax revenue and a negative growth. And you, Ms. Chancellor, speak of progress. What progress are associated with this in Greece? There is not a single step forward.
(Beifall bei der LINKEN)(Applause from the Left Party)
Die Schulden sind um 50 Milliarden Euro angestiegen. Wir haben jetzt nicht mehr eine Schuldenquote von 130 Prozent der Wirtschaftsleistung, sondern von 170 Prozent der Wirtschaftsleistung.The debt has increased by 50 billion euros. We have now no longer a debt ratio of 130 percent of economic output, but 170 percent of economic output.
Wenn man sieht, dass diese verheerende und rigorose Kürzungspolitik nicht dazu führt, dass wir Griechenland retten, sondern, ganz im Gegenteil, dazu, dass wir Griechenland immer weiter in die Katastrophe führen, dann muss man sich doch korrigieren.If you see that this devastating and rigorous austerity policy does not lead to our rescue of Greece, but, quite the contrary, to the fact that we lead Greece ever further into disaster, then you must correct it.
(Beifall bei Abgeordneten der LINKEN)(Applause from deputies of the Left Party)
Wir kennen das doch. Die Siegermächte des Ersten Weltkrieges haben in Versailles einen Vertrag beschlossen, der Deutschland bis ins Mark gedemütigt hat. Das war nicht der einzige, aber einer der Gründe, weshalb der Verbrecher Hitler und die NSDAP so stark wurden. Die Sieger des Zweiten Weltkrieges - gerade im Westen - waren viel klüger und beschlossen geringe Reparationen und den Marshallplan zum Aufbau. Sie machen bei Griechenland Versailles. Die Griechen brauchen aber Marshall. Das ist das Entscheidende. Genau das findet nicht statt.We are familiar with this. The victorious powers of the First World War agreed on a treaty at Versailles which humiliated Germany to the core. That was not the only, but one of the reasons why the criminal Hitler and the NSDAP became so strong. The winners of the Second World War - just in the West - were a lot smarter and decided for minor reparations and the Marshall Plan for reconstruction. What you do regarding Greece is Versailles. The Greeks, however, need Marshall. That's what matters. Exactly that doesn't take place.
(Beifall bei der LINKEN)(Applause from the Left Party)
Wir gefährden die Solidarität innerhalb einer Gesellschaft und zwischen den Gesellschaften. Das ist zerstörerisch für Griechenland und die EU. Wir gefährden auch die Demokratie. Wenn zwei Männer, die in Banken Funktionen hatten, jetzt die Chefs in Griechenland und Italien sind - und das auch noch ohne Wahlen -, dann finde ich das schon abenteuerlich; ich will gar nicht darüber reden.We endanger the solidarity within a society and between societies. This is devastating for Greece and the EU. We also endanger democracy. If two men who had posts in banks are now the bosses in Greece and Italy - and that without elections, too - then I think that's adventurous, and I do not want to talk about that at all.
Herr Schäuble schlägt den Griechen vor, die Wahlen zu verschieben, weil sie ihm nicht passen. Ich sage nur: Wo leben wir denn eigentlich?Mr. Schäuble proposed the Greeks to postpone the elections because they do not suit him. I just say: where do we live, anyway?
(Beifall bei der LINKEN)(Applause from the Left Party)
Und Innenminister Friedrich will Griechenland aus dem Euro drängen.And interior minister Friedrich wants to force Greece out of the euro.
Präsident Dr. Norbert Lammert: Herr Kollege Gysi, darf Ihnen der Kollege Beck eine Zwischenfrage stellen? President Norbert Lammert : Mr Gysi, may colleague Beck pose you an interjection?

My own interjection to give some context. Volker Beck is the chief whip of the federal parliamentary faction of the Greens. People outside Germany may know him only for his bloodied face, arrest and mistreatment in Moscow during the illegal 2006 and 2007 gay pride marches which police let be attacked by local neo-Nazis. Within Germany however, he has not only a long record as a gay rights campaigner but was also involved in various reforms relating to dealing with the Nazi past, like the compensation funds for slave labourers or the elimination of war pensions for war criminals. This may explain why it was him who made the interjection below, but it will be an interjection completely beside the point anyway. Meanwhile, Beck is also more to the right within the Greens.

Dr. Gregor Gysi (DIE LINKE): Ja. Dr. Gregor Gysi (The Left) : Yes.
Volker Beck (Köln) (BÜNDNIS 90/DIE GRÜNEN): Ich möchte Sie fragen, was Sie uns gerade mit den Aussagen zum Versailler Frieden mitteilen wollten. Wollten Sie das intonieren im Sinne von ,,Weg mit dem Versailler Schandfrieden", wie das früher in der Weimarer Republik gefordert wurde?Volker Beck (Cologne) (Greens) : I would like to ask you what you just wanted to tell us with the propositions on the Peace of Versailles. Did you want to intone it in terms of [in Germany well-known slogan] "Away with the Shame-Peace of Versailles", as it has been demanded earlier in the Weimar Republic?
(Zurufe von der LINKEN: Oh!)(Shouts from the Left: Oh!)
Ich bin wirklich ein bisschen entsetzt.I'm really a bit shocked.
(Beifall beim BÜNDNIS 90/DIE GRÜNEN und bei der FDP sowie bei Abgeordneten der CDU/CSU)(Applause from the Greens and the FDP and the CDU/CSU)
Man kann doch diese Art von Parolen nicht ohne historischen Zusammenhang aufnehmen. Was war denn 1870/71, wie war die Vorgeschichte, und was ist mit dem historischen Kontext? Wie beurteilen Sie die Auseinandersetzungen zur Verantwortlichkeit im Hinblick auf den Ersten Weltkrieg?You can not take on this kind of slogan without historical context. What happened in 1870/71, what were the antecedents, and what about the historical context? How do you assess the arguments about responsibility with regard to the First World War?
(Beifall beim BÜNDNIS 90/DIE GRÜNEN - Daniel Bahr [Münster] [FDP]: Unglaublich!)(Applause from the Greens - Daniel Bahr [Münster] [FDP] [also federal health minister]: Unbelievable!)
Dr. Gregor Gysi (DIE LINKE): Das werde ich Ihnen sagen, obwohl ich jetzt keinen gesamthistorischen Vortrag halten kann; das würde ein bisschen zu weit führen. In Versailles saßen die Siegermächte zusammen. Das war völlig korrekt, ebenso dass sie einen Vertrag geschlossen haben. Aber sie sind viel zu weit gegangen, weil sie nicht aufhören konnten, zu siegen. Dadurch haben sie Deutschland wirtschaftlich, sozial und politisch in einem Grade gedemütigt, dass Hitler mit seiner Verbrecherpartei das Ganze nutzen konnte. Das ist das, was ich ihnen vorwerfe. Da waren die Westmächte nach dem Zweiten Weltkrieg viel klüger, Dr. Gregor Gysi (Left Party): I will tell you that, though I can not hold a general historical presentation, this would lead a bit too far. At Versailles, the victorious powers gathered. That was absolutely correct, also that they made a treaty. But they have gone way too far, because they could not stop winning. That way, they have humiliated Germany economically, socially and politically to a degree that Hitler and his criminal party was able to use it all. That's what I reproach them for. In that respect, the Western powers after the Second World War were much wiser,
(Thomas Oppermann [SPD]: Was hat das jetzt mit Griechenland zu tun?)(Thomas Oppermann [SPD] [chief whip]: What does this have to do with Greece now?)
indem sie gesagt haben: So machen wir das nicht wieder, wir machen das anders. - Das ist das Entscheidende. Wenn Sie das nicht begriffen haben, dann tut es mir leid.by having said: We are not doing it like that again, we do it differently. - This is the key. If you have not understood this, then I'm sorry.
(Beifall bei der LINKEN - Thomas Oppermann [SPD]: Unmöglich! - Jürgen Trittin [BÜNDNIS 90/DIE GRÜNEN]: Schämen Sie sich! Das ist wirklich relativ!)(Applause from the Left - Thomas Oppermann [SPD]: Impossible! - Jürgen Trittin [Greens]: Shame on you! This is really relative!)
Jetzt komme ich leider nicht mehr zum Fiskalvertrag; ich sage hierzu aber kurz Folgendes: Der Fiskalvertrag ist deshalb eine Katastrophe, weil Sie die Schuldenbremse in ganz Europa einführen. Diese macht aber die Politik handlungsunfähig.Regrettably I don't have anymore time to discuss the fiscal contract, however, I say the following about this matter: A fiscal contract is a disaster because you introduce the debt brake in all of Europe. However, this hamstrings politics.
(Norbert Barthle [CDU/CSU]: Im Gegenteil!)( Norbert Barthle [CDU /CSU] : On the contrary!)
Damit werden die Zustände immer undemokratischer. Egal welche Regierung an der Macht ist, sie kann nicht mehr verantwortungsbewusst handeln. Sie übertragen jetzt den falschen Weg, den Deutschland mit der Agenda 2010 und mit der Schuldenbremse eingeschlagen hat, auf ganz Europa. An unserem Wesen werden die Leute nicht genesen.Thus, the conditions are becoming ever more undemocratic. No matter what government is in power, it can not act responsibly. Now you transfer the wrong path Germany has taken with [Schröder-era neolib reform package] Agenda 2010 and the debt brake on the whole of Europe. On our national character, people will not recover. [Figure of speech that doesn't translate well [see comments]]
(Beifall bei der LINKEN)(Applause from the Left Party)
Wir müssen in Bezug auf Europa endlich klüger werden.We need to become smarter about Europe at last.
Zum Schluss - meine Redezeit geht zu Ende, Herr Bundestagspräsident - sage ich Ihnen noch Folgendes: Ich habe die tapfere Oppositionsrede von Herrn Steinbrück gehört, jetzt wird auch Frau Künast eine tapfere Oppositionsrede halten, und dann stimmen Sie der Regierungsvorlage wieder zu. Das ist immer dasselbe.Finally - my allotted time comes to an end, Mr. President of the Bundestag [Speaker] - I tell you this: I've heard the brave opposition speech of [SPD faction leader] Mr. Steinbrück, now [Greens faction co-leader] Ms. Künast will hold a brave opposition speech, and then they will consent to the government bill again. That's always the same.
(Thomas Oppermann [SPD]: Aber dass Ihre Rede jetzt vorbei ist, da können wir froh sein!)( Thomas Oppermann [SPD] : However, we are lucky that your speech is over now!)
Egal ob ich an den Afghanistan-Krieg, die Agenda 2010 -Whether I think of the Afghanistan War, Agenda 2010 -
Präsident Dr. Norbert Lammert: Herr Kollege.Speaker Norbert Lammert: Mr. colleague.
Dr. Gregor Gysi (DIE LINKE): - oder die Griechenland-Pakete denke: Immer herrscht zwischen Union, SPD, FDP und Grünen eine Konsenssoße. Aber zum Glück gibt es noch die Linke und damit eine Kraft, die den Mut hat, Nein zu sagen. Dr. Gregor Gysi (Left Party): - or the Greece packages: there is always a consensus sauce that prevails between the CDU/CSU, the SPD, the FDP and the Greens. But luckily there is still the Left Party and thus a force that has the courage to say No.
Danke schön.Thank you.
(Anhaltender Beifall bei der LINKEN - Thomas Oppermann [SPD]: Gut, dass die Rede vorbei ist!)(Prolonged applause from the Left - Thomas Oppermann [SPD]: It's good that the speech is over!)

Display:
Gysi on the EU "rescue package" for Greece | 55 comments (54 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)
Seed comment (4.00 / 7)
This diary is a follow-up on a comment in talos's diary.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Feb 28th, 2012 at 03:26:31 PM EST
Re: Seed comment (none / 1)
Thanks for this, DoDo.

Some suggested edits:

Apart from the Überwachungstroika does not believe himself to such a debt reduction this, the monitoring troika doesn't believe in this debt reduction itself, as can be seen an internal document.

The rescue package is put together so well this time not for the Greeks and Greeks, but only for banks, property investors and hedge funds. You They get the money, and no other one else.

If you see it is visible that this devastating and rigorous austerity policy does not lead to our rescue of Greece, but, quite the contrary, to the fact that we lead Greece ever further into disaster, then one must correct oneself it must be corrected.

People will not recover on our essence. [Figure of speech that doesn't tranaslate well]

With our system, people will not recover.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Feb 28th, 2012 at 04:22:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Seed comment (none / 0)
Oh, and "Greeks and Greeks" are feminine and masculine, so in English just one "Greeks".
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Feb 28th, 2012 at 04:24:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Seed comment (none / 0)
Thanks. The first two are original Google translates which I failed to correct (I realise I was at just that point when the Translate window froze in such a way that only a Windows restart helped & I had to dig all the work done out of a sessionrestore.bak).

On the third, for the ending, can you suggest something not passive (that is, someone has to correct her ways, rather than a correction is needed)?

On the fourth, "system" is way too narrow here; alternatives are "spirit", "nature", "character", "being", "substance".

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 28th, 2012 at 04:46:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Seed comment (4.00 / 8)
Wonderful, Dodo.

The figure of speech that translates so awfully comes from a 19th century nationalistic poemthat was revived in the nazi era. The reference is meant to hit a nerve.

by Katrin on Tue Feb 28th, 2012 at 06:29:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Seed comment (4.00 / 2)
Thanks, Katrin. Then it seems to be a reference to "our national character" that will not help people recover.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 01:15:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Seed comment (none / 1)
"On the third, for the ending, can you suggest something not passive (that is, someone has to correct her ways, rather than a correction is needed)?"

It's the impersonal "man" so you could use "one" but it might be stronger with "you" as you first began it:

If you (can) see that this devastating and rigorous austerity policy does not lead to our rescue of Greece, but, quite the contrary, to the fact that we lead Greece ever further into disaster, then you must correct it.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 01:30:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Seed comment (none / 0)
Suggestions now applied.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 08:07:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks a lot for this! Really excellent, (4.00 / 2)
I'm sure this took you a long time and it is much appreciated. Thanks also for the context around Beck though I agree he was really off-point.

Really, those SPD pricks are worthless though...

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Feb 28th, 2012 at 06:05:43 PM EST
Re: Thanks a lot for this! Really excellent, (none / 0)
This abominable Red-Green show was even worse considering that the CDU, CSU and FDP pricks could just lay back and watch the show, without much commenting what Gysi said. (Later in the debate the CDU's faction leader just tagged on to blast Gysi for drawing historical parallels.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 08:12:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Gysi on the EU "rescue package" (4.00 / 6)
the anti-social and anti-democratic strings attached to the 'rescue package' should have been in the focus for the three left-of-centre opposition parties. Yet, two of them, the Social Democrats (SPD) and the Greens, voted along with the government majority. Only the third, the hard-left Left Party, made a clear stand against.
Apparently now Social Democracy is a hard-left position.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 28th, 2012 at 06:27:47 PM EST
Re: Gysi on the EU "rescue package" (4.00 / 4)
Why yes. Yes it is. After 30 years of Thatcherite ascendancy it seems like the epitome of radicalness. And Die Linke is the sort of very old school Social Democracy that insists on the democratic transformation of society towards socialism: the overthrow of capitalism



The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Tue Feb 28th, 2012 at 06:49:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Gysi on the EU "rescue package" (4.00 / 3)
Not only that, Die Linke qualifies for state surveillance as an extremist organization.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 28th, 2012 at 06:53:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Gysi on the EU "rescue package" (4.00 / 4)
We can't waste the ressources of the Verfassungsschutz on these nice guys who are interested in the doings of Turkish businessmen, can we? </snark>
by Katrin on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 04:22:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Gysi on the EU "rescue package" (none / 0)
Especially their most moderate leaders...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 08:14:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Gysi on the EU "rescue package" (none / 0)
The Left Party is a large enough party to have several streams, from positions not far from the 1998 SPD to Marxist-Leninists. As far as I can see, most of the leadership is indeed on the moderate end, though. In fact in government with the SPD in East German states, it did some austerity of its own.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 08:19:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Gysi on the EU "rescue package" (4.00 / 5)
Now that I think of it, even democracy is now a hard left position. This defense of democratic legitimacy, is from one of the parties recently characterized by J.C.Juncker as "extreme"

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Tue Feb 28th, 2012 at 06:58:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Gysi on the EU "rescue package" (4.00 / 2)
The memory of social democracy upon which some here wistfully reflect was made possible by a bit of pressure applied by our friends in the Soviet Union. Once that fell apart, the parties which used to preach social democracy started preaching something entirely different. Third-wayism, and the fall of the wall occurred at roughly the same time. Coincidence? I don't think so.

In my view, it is a defining time like this where you see who your friends really are...social democracy is and always was a mirage. The way forward id democratic socialism, and Gregor Gysi is a great proponent for the cause.

As well as a helluva great orator.  

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Feb 28th, 2012 at 07:35:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Opposition? (4.00 / 6)
Face it: There is only one left-of-centre opposition party, not three. Greens and SPD are competing with each other who is the best coalition partner for the CDU.
by Katrin on Tue Feb 28th, 2012 at 06:36:48 PM EST
Re: Opposition? (none / 1)
Left-of-centre is a relative statement. Given that CDU+FDP have a governing majority, this pretty much defines SPD and Greens as left-of-centre.

The SPD, like the rest of Europe's Social Democratic parties, is now Social Liberal. Just like the Greens. They differ in the strength of their ecological positions.

The Left parties are mostly former Communists who have now moved into the Social Democratic space.

But you know all this.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 28th, 2012 at 06:56:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Opposition? (none / 0)
I don't think they've really moved in the social democratic space so much as they're stayed where they were while most western european parties lurched the the right.

And now, perhaps, we see who are friends have been all this time.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Feb 28th, 2012 at 07:39:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Opposition? (none / 1)
redstar:
they're stayed where they were

So no change in W European Communists sparked by the disappearance of the USSR? In the PCF, for example, just the change of leadership from Georges Marchais to Robert Hue was pretty colossal...

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 02:11:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Major changes in policy orientation? (none / 0)
I don't think so, really. There's the change in style, of course, and in every political tendancy there are evolutions in policy over time. And the disappearance of the Soviet Union removed a major funding source and meant Georges Marchais' visits to Moscow wouldn't be repeated by Robert Hue.

The evolution to Euro-communism happened under Marchais, not after him, his statements on Afghanistan (and he in retrospect turns out to have been 100% right about Soviet intervention there) being used notably by the PS for electoral reasons to prove otherwise. Similar evolutions were occuring elsewhere, PCI notably.

The big changes came in the eastern parties, and Gysi is emblematic of this.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 03:31:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Opposition? (4.00 / 2)
In the case of Die Linke, and the Eastern PDS in particular, the shift to Social Democracy was quite drastic and explicit. In the case of the Western WASG, you could argue it was keeping the traditional SPD positions where the SPD was moving right under Schröder.

But we split hairs...

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 03:49:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Opposition? (4.00 / 5)
The economic programme of Die Linke is something the entire middle class could support, if they weren't ideologically blinded. It's Keynesian with even a dose of ordoliberalism, but not communist.
by Katrin on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 04:11:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Opposition? (none / 0)
Katrin:
Greens and SPD are competing with each other who is the best coalition partner for the CDU

Sadly the impression I got.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 01:38:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Opposition? (4.00 / 2)
If SDP instead tied up the Greens good and properly by giving them environmental concessions the CDU will not, then SDP would be assured power as FDP are going to crash out of Bundestag. But I guess the self-interest of the party is trumphed by the self-interest of the politicians for an after-politics career.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 03:53:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Opposition? (4.00 / 5)
SPD and Greens can't hope for a majority. They would need Die Linke for that and this is out of the question. It's not a sad thing. When they had a majority they introduced the Hartz legislation and took part in the Yugoslavia and the Afghanistan war. I prefer honest conservatives over neoliberals in social democratic or green disguise.
by Katrin on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 04:31:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Without wanting to be overly indiscreet (4.00 / 3)
in my question, are you in Die Linke or are a supporter?

If so, it would be really nice if you could keep us informed on what the party is doing in Germany. We had Oskar Lafontaine in Metz with Jean-Luc Mélenchon in December, I should have diaried it, so I guess a little bit the pot calling the kettle black, but anyway, humble request.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 04:37:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Without wanting to be overly indiscreet (4.00 / 8)
No, I just find Die Linke is the least horrible party we have, and so the only one I can vote for. I have no special insight in their doings.

The only party I have ever been a member of is the Greens, of which I was a founding member, and like most founding members I was disgusted at their march to the right and left it.

by Katrin on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 04:52:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Without wanting to be overly indiscreet (none / 1)
Which year have you left, which single event (if there was one) made you leave? (As far as I know, the first waves of the bleeding of the left wing were in the eighties already.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 08:42:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Without wanting to be overly indiscreet (4.00 / 2)
It was a slow process of growing anger, not one single incident. I left in 1990 or 91, after I had come to the conclusion that I wouldn't be able to alter anything.
by Katrin on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 10:00:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Opposition? (4.00 / 4)
The calculation is not made with the governing parties and SPD and Greens only. There are the Left Party and your Pirates, too. Before the ascendancy of the Pirates, polls showed a safe Red-Green majority. The Pirates took that away, and then (thanks to Merkel's Euro grandstanding and a now amost completely uncriticial media all the way from Süddeutsche to the right I'm afraid) the CDU started to pick up. In the latest poll, from Forsa, CDU gets 38%, SPD 26%, Greens 14%, Left Party 8%, Pirates 7%, FDP would fail at 3% – so parties uniting about 46-47% of the vote between them will have a governing majority. The problem is that neither the SPD nor the Greens show willingess to consider either the Left Party or the Pirates. That strategic stupidity and cowardice in the face of potential red-socks campaigns leaves Merkel with all the options.

(Personally, I am thinking that Red-Green with both Left Party and Pirates entering parliament as opposition would be the best option: it wouldn't force the Left Party and the Pirates into foul compromises as coalition members, while as opposition parties they could draw the Overton Window left.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 08:40:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Opposition? (4.00 / 2)
Unrealistic. Red/green could--perhaps--get a majority if Die Linke didn't exist. The Pirates must grow up and I am not sure they will manage that. At present they are a one issue party.  

38% for the CDU is a lot more in seats, by the way: the CDU will get more direct seats than that again. I am hoping for a result that would theoretically allow red/red/green, which SPD and Greens will then reject. Should remove some illusions some voters still suffer from.

by Katrin on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 10:12:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Opposition? (4.00 / 2)
Red/green could--perhaps--get a majority if Die Linke didn't exist.

I don't think it depends on the Left Party alone, you need the Pirates. Right before the Berlin elections, the SPD and the Greens had about 48-50% in polls, which would have been enough for a comfortable majority considering the parties failing to enter, especially considering that the SPD was fairly close to the CDU and thus the overhang mandates would likely have been distributed more evenly.

the CDU will get more direct seats than that again

Let's check the figures! 38% of the vote, with parties entering parliament adding up to 93%, would mean 40.9% of the non-overhang seats in parliament, or 244 seats in a 598-seat parliament. If the CDU/CSU could reproduce its 2009 record of 24 overhang mandates again (unlikely with such high numbers) with no overhangs for anyone else, that would give them 43.1% of seats – a 2.2 percentage point gain, which equates to the same aggregate loss for all others. Meanwhile the majority of 312 seats, if held by a coalition without the CDU/CSU, would be 52.2% of the 598 non-overhang seats and thus 48.5% of the vote. So with the Forsa poll used for the calculation, only an SPD-Greens-Left Party-Pirates coalition could put the CDU in opposition...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 12:59:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Opposition? (none / 0)
So with the Forsa poll used for the calculation, only an SPD-Greens-Left Party-Pirates coalition could put the CDU in opposition...

Provided the Pirates can keep their results stable. It's possible, but by no means certain.

by Katrin on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 02:31:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Opposition? (4.00 / 2)
Katrin:
The Pirates must grow up and I am not sure they will manage that. At present they are a one issue party.

I think they will but it will be a slow process. The Berlin success has at least over here strenghten the broad approch (getting a full program) over the narrow approach (running just on key issues). But it will take time and I hope for their sake that they are not cast into government their first period in parliament. They need to learn to handle the daily compromises of parliament before they have a chance of surviving government.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 03:31:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Opposition? (none / 0)
Why did the Greens overtake the Left Party again? Did they pick up FDP voters, is there a heightened environmental awareness, or what?

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 10:16:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Opposition? (4.00 / 2)
I think they also got a lot of mileage out of the S-21 protests.
by generic on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 10:28:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Opposition? (none / 0)
I'm less in touch with Germany than others here, but I have heard anecdotally about some younger FDP types shifting towards the Greens.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 11:31:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Opposition? (4.00 / 3)
It wasn't a single trend, nor a monotonic one.
  • Right after the 2009 elections, the SPD was shedding voters, the Left Party was overtaken by then.
  • The FDP meltdown started at the end of 2009.
  • Stuttgart 21 protests boosted the Greens above 20% in autumn 2010, but that melted away again.
  • Fukushima put them closer to 25%.
  • Several problems peaking in the debacle in the Berlin elections (commonly explained with supporters being scared away by allusions to a CDU-Greens coalition option) cut support back to the 15% region. After Berlin, the Pirates exploded federally, taking from the Greens and the Left Party.

Also note that there are simultaneous movements, e.g. a decrease in FDP and increase for the Pirates could mask a combination of FDP -> CDU -> SPD -> Greens -> Left Party -> Pirates movements.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 12:29:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Opposition? (4.00 / 3)
DoDo:

Also note that there are simultaneous movements, e.g. a decrease in FDP and increase for the Pirates could mask a combination of FDP -> CDU -> SPD -> Greens -> Left Party -> Pirates movements.

Remembering the Berlin exit polls, FDP voters moved primarily to CDU and to not-voting, while the Pirates picked up a lot form did-not-vote-in-last-election.

With about 80% voting you have a pool of 20% non-voters that contains longer movements to and from parties.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 03:27:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Opposition? (4.00 / 2)
Interestingly, according to the taz, Black-Green is currently the pre-occupation of Özdemir and his circle only and the other leaders (even Gauck fan Trittin, to my surprise) were violently against, as a lesson from the Berlin debacle. That doesn't change the fact that they drifted rather far to the right on the economy and at least superficiality eigns regarding Gauck, however. On the other hand, I won't trust even the Left Party to do the Greens' part on the environment, see the issue of brown coal.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 08:28:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Opposition? (4.00 / 5)
Don't wish to hijack this important diary, but perhaps we're about to see how energy and environmental policy will affect the next state and federal elections.

The Bundeskabinett today came out with the new regs on the EEG, which on the surface seem to affect wind as well as solar. The Bundesverband Windenergie E.V. headlined their press statement, "Federal Government Torpedoes It's Own Energy Transition."

We'll see what happens if the Pirates decided to champion renewables, and if the Greens begin to see the reality of their black hopes.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 10:30:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Gysi on the EU Greek "rescue package" (4.00 / 3)
I like Gysi! Was a transcript of his speech published in any mainstream news publication? Doesn't der LINKEN hold about 20% of the seats in the Bundestag?

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Feb 28th, 2012 at 07:53:01 PM EST
Re: Gysi (none / 0)
12%.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 01:44:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
taz support for Gysi (4.00 / 3)
There is an op-ed in taz today in support of Gysi, criticising Beck and all the others protesting the Versailles parallel. It accuses the critics of never having heard of Keynes's critique of the Treaty of Versailles which Gysi's parallel is based on, and also lists several earlier references to it, including ones making the Greece parallel, over the last year or two. In fact Gysi made the same parallel last June already.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 08:09:41 AM EST
Re: taz support for Gysi (4.00 / 2)
I wonder why they are reaching back to Versailles.

Why not to 1953? Greece forgave Germany an amount of pre-war debt that (after inflation) equates to roughly the amount Germany has loaned Greece so far (14.5 billion minus 5% interest over the last 2 years). This doesn't account for any debts/etc. related to the war. This is purely financial.

by Upstate NY on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 10:06:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Keynes's support for Greece (none / 1)
Because of this book.
by Katrin on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 10:18:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Keynes's support for Greece (4.00 / 2)
Because the argument is that Versailles was self-defeating punishment of Germany like the "rescue" is self-defeating punishment of Greece. The 1953 debt forgiveness is not a "self-defeating punishment".

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 10:23:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Keynes's support for Greece (none / 1)
Actually, since this is Germany, it's more likely to be this book, which makes it look like Keynes stole his title from Tolstoy. And Gysi's assumption that other politicians had read it seems to be wrong.
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 10:25:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Keynes's support for Greece (none / 1)
That's the German translation. And I too suspect that not many politicians have read it.
by Katrin on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 10:39:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: taz support for Gysi (4.00 / 2)
Mentioned the Marshall plan is already reaching back to 1953. The Marshall being a lot better remembered then the London debt treaty. And the two being intertwined.
by IM on Wed Feb 29th, 2012 at 12:37:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: taz support for Gysi (none / 1)
It is not too surprising that the good deeds of a country, even if coerced, are easily forgotten when a scapegoat is needed. That universally seems to form part of the base aspect of human nature. And the beneficiaries of an invidious relationship are always the last to acknowledge the true nature of that relationship, if they ever do.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Mar 1st, 2012 at 10:34:34 AM EST
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Gysi on the EU "rescue package" for Greece | 55 comments (54 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)


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