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Ukraine "making history" III

by vbo Sat Mar 1st, 2014 at 09:42:10 PM EST

Ugly scene from Kharkov yesterday...

Russia's flag hanging on the building of Kharkov Regional State Administration. Some people remove EuroMaidan activists from Kharkov Regional State Administration and force them to kneel in the centre of the square. Among the activists the famed Kharkov-born writer Sergei Zhadan. The militants chant, "Russia" and "Berkut".

Law enforcement officers do not intervene and begin to move toward the Kharkov Regional State Administration.

For those who want to follow events in Ukraine...posts will come from everywhere available. If my comment is not attached do not assume that posted news is my own opinion.
My opinion about this specific post is that I feel deep sorrow when I see how brothers are eager to brutally hurt and humiliate each other... reminds me of Balkan wars...next step we all know what it is...While big powers are flexing their muscles wasting our lives...
Sad world...bloody hell...

"President Obama expressed his deep concern over Russia's clear violation of Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity, which is a breach of international law."
...David Cameron said: "There can be no excuse for outside military intervention in Ukraine - a point I made to President Putin when we spoke [on Friday]. Everyone must think carefully about their actions and work to lower, not escalate, tensions. The world is watching."

My opinion: Honestly they know no shame!They invaded and occupied Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya,and were meddling and steering things in  Yugoslavia before and later Serbia (attacking it with no less but NATO) with no respect for "sovereignty and territorial integrity" and international law ,destabilized middle East, are now pricking China by pushing Japan to confrontation...you name it.Where ever they meddle it's instability and war.
For fuck sake shut up!Go to war, do what ever you want just please shut the fuck up!  

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sat Mar 1st, 2014 at 10:25:38 PM EST

National Bank of Ukraine showers Crimea with dosh
National Bank has provided support to the banking sector of the Crimea, sending UAH 400 million for refinancing the banks operating on the peninsula, announced Prime Minister Yatsenyuk opening the Cabinet meeting.

"Yesterday, together with the National Bank and the State Treasury, we renewed supply of financial resources to the Crimea. Using the reserve channels we managed to resume both banking and payments through the State Treasury," he said.

The Prime Minister stressed that Kiev is favours only peaceful and political means for resolvinig the Crimea crisis, provoked by "inappropriate Russian presence on the territory of autonomy."

No comment.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sat Mar 1st, 2014 at 10:31:17 PM EST

Former world heavyweight boxing champion Vitali Klitschko, a leading candidate in presidential elections set for 25 May, had called for parliament to convene and order a full mobilisation of the army.
...The Russian decree does not limit the use of troops to Crimea, specifying only that the Russian military could be deployed "on Ukrainian territory", and the big question is how far the Kremlin wants to go. So far, Putin's statement only talks about "protecting the interests of Russian citizens and compatriots", but there are fears that Moscow is planning a full-scale annexation of Crimea, with its majority ethnic Russian population. Putin's press secretary, Dmitry Peskov, said that no decision to implement the decree had yet been taken.
... Michael McFaul, until last week the US ambassador to Russia, castigated the Kremlin: "Russian companies and banks with business in the west will suffer as a result of reckless Putin decision. Will they speak up?" he tweeted.

But the parliamentary session roundly dismissed western criticism in advance. Senator Nikolai Ryzhkov said Russia should be prepared for the west to "unleash their dogs on us". "They ruined Yugoslavia, Egypt, Libya, Iraq, all in the name of western democracy. It's not even double standards, it's political cynicism."

Wow it's just as he is reading my mind. And not just that.They ruined their own Greece, Spain, Portugal, let alone new members like Slovenia and they did not make people's lives any better in Romania, Bulgaria etc.I would advice USA ambassador not to worry about Russian state of economy. There is a lot to worry back home with trillions of debt rolling on...and only Wall street speculators/scum making money in USA.
Late on Friday night, Obama told Russia there would be "costs" for intervention in Ukraine. A senator in the Federation Council said it "crossed a red line" and "insulted the Russian people". The parliamentary body said it would ask Putin for the Russian ambassador to the US to be withdrawn.

However, actual signs of violence have been limited. The Russian foreign ministry claimed on Saturday that armed men "from Kiev" had tried to seize the government building in the Crimean capital, Simferopol, but had been repulsed by self-defence units, who took casualties. On the ground, nobody could offer any evidence of such an attack.

Right...probably that Kiev self imposed government would know if they sent "armed man". If there was an attact at all maybe that's Sashenka and his ilk? They are nowhere to be seen near Crimea ...it is much easier to continue to bit and abuse peaceful people and families ( woman and children of Berkut policemen) around Kiev and surroundings ...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sat Mar 1st, 2014 at 11:04:41 PM EST

Hagel spoke on Saturday with his Russian counterpart, Sergei Shoigu, a US official told Reuters. Asked about rumours that some US military units had been on alert over turmoil in the Crimean peninsula, the official said the US focus was on diplomatic options. There was no change in the US military's stance, said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

Senator John McCain, a leading Republican voice on foreign affairs who often advocates a more forceful approach by Washington, on Saturday called on Obama to "articulate exactly what those costs will be and to take steps urgently to impose them".

"Every moment that the United States and our allies fail to respond sends the signal to President Putin that he can be even more ambitious and aggressive in his military intervention in Ukraine," McCain said in a statement.

"There is a range of serious options at our disposal at this time without the use of military force."

Another leading Senate Republican, Bob Corker, called on Obama to lead an international response that could include sanctions.

Sanctions to Russia? Are they mad? They should be very scared if Russian impose sanctions on them...Western Europe will be very dark and cold/or hot place...not to mention cost to already badly shaped western  European economies. What do they feed them in USA? "Mad mushrooms"?  

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sat Mar 1st, 2014 at 11:22:49 PM EST
There's an election coming up here in the US.  McCain and the right wing are using the situation to make domestic political points.  We just went through this re: Syria.

There is no way the US is going to send troops into Eastern Europe unless Putin goes crazy and, e.g., invades Poland.  

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Mon Mar 3rd, 2014 at 02:18:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
See McCain
"In the short-term, probably not, because we have to regain our credibility, which we have none," he answered. "And, by the way, again, there are significant Russian populations in many countries -- in Poland, in Romania, in the Baltic countries. Does this mean that we will now acquiesce to Putin acting on behalf of the Russian population in parts of all these countries in the region?"
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Mon Mar 3rd, 2014 at 03:28:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
McCain is flogging the GOP line: "Democrats are wusses re: military and foreign policy"

It's what he does.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Mon Mar 3rd, 2014 at 04:59:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Nato secretary-general, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, said Russia must respect Ukraine's sovereignty, territorial integrity and borders, including with regard to movement of Russian forces in Ukraine.

"Urgent need for de-escalation in Crimea. Nato allies continue to coordinate closely," Rasmussen said.

I remember very well how NATO forced and humiliated few Russian solders that were sent to Kosovo to try to make a balance in the wake of NATO bombardment.
Times... they are changing...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sat Mar 1st, 2014 at 11:30:54 PM EST
European Union foreign ministers will hold an emergency meeting Monday to discuss the crisis. The EU foreign policy chief, Catherine Ashton, said the decision by the Russian parliament to authorise the use of Russian forces in neighbouring Ukraine was an unwarranted escalation of tensions.

"I therefore call upon the Russian Federation not to dispatch such troops but to promote its views through peaceful means," Ashton said in a written statement on Saturday.

No shit! Can anybody here direct me to one single case where USA/NATO "promoted their views through peaceful means" until recently with Syria and maybe Iran, but only after Russians "showed their teeth"...China started to show their teeth recently (military exercise in very far waters that happened recently)  being provoked but Japan)
Now I totally understand why we need at least two super powers to have at least some piece around the globe.From the time of fall of USSR , USA and NATO were simply having a bloodbath party all over the world.
In stead of threatening Russia they should get serious and sit down and talk to them as an equal partner. Have in mind that Russia was able to spend 50 billion for Sochi games and still maintain their military and everything else in order. I forgot to say how disgusting it was to plan and deliberately start this coup during Olympic games. The wars used to stop during Olympic games in past...they new Putin can't shame Russia with war during Olympic games that they invested so much in. Even if west has done everything in books to downgrade Russian organization , Russians did show the world that Russia has changed.
And even this Russian solders , they do not look anything like those Soviet solders looked at the fall of USSR. USA should talk to Russia and take them seriously...Sooner the better...it is in no one interest to escalate things farther.  

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sun Mar 2nd, 2014 at 12:37:25 AM EST
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/01/crimea-crisis-deepens-as-russia-and-ukraine-ready-force s-live-updates
"They made a big mistake when they stood on Maidan and said they wanted to ban the Russian language ... We don't want to be second-class citizens," said Marchenko's brother Vitaly, a civilian sailor.
"I am not against a united Ukraine ... Yes, our president was not great. Yes, there was corruption and theft, but we don't want to live under these conditions. We are just sick of these speeches by fascists and neo-fascists."  

Who ever advised "new parliament" to ban Russian language made a huge favor to Russians.No one in the world can stand to defend this stupidity.Plus they showed the world that they are fascists and nationalists (term hated worldwide especially from the time of Balkan wars when  Serbian nationalists were marked as guilty for those bloody wars and are still in Hague).
Also if there wasn't Sashenka the fascist (and his videos biting prosecutor and coming with a rifle and knife at the city council session etc.) Russians would need to invent him. Huge favor to Russians.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sun Mar 2nd, 2014 at 01:20:13 AM EST

Ukraine: The far-right groups patrolling Kiev

1 March 2014 Last updated at 11:17 GMT

Last month's revolution in Ukraine saw thousands of students, workers and families take to the streets to demand political reform.

But amongst the crowds of ordinary citizens were a small number of far-right groups, who were often responsible for the most organised and violent protests.

Gabriel Gatehouse met some of these men - who are now carrying out armed patrols on the streets of Kiev.

Great state post coup Ukraine...One would simply eager to live there and raise children there.Real sense of security...especially for Russian speaking people.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sun Mar 2nd, 2014 at 01:46:44 AM EST
BTW this boy should be at school!But I suppose his grades are not so good and "revolution" comes handy...who needs school , he already has great career in front of him.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sun Mar 2nd, 2014 at 06:30:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

9.54am GMT

AP have filed this report from Donetsk in the east of Ukraine where pro-Russian sympathies are strong about the differences between western and eastern Ukrainians.

For AP the contrast can be explained by looking at the cities of Donetsk and Lviv. "The eastern city of Donetsk can seem like a cliche of post-Soviet grimness, a place of Stalinist-era apartment blocks, tin-roofed shacks and loyalty to Russia. In the west, Lviv has emerged as a center for Ukrainian artists and writers, a huge draw for European tourists and a city desperate for closer ties to the West."

"I have always felt that we are so different," said a miner who gave his name only as Nikolai, a thickset 35-year-old who went from high school directly into the mines. People speak Russian across most of Ukraine's east, and worship in onion-domed Orthodox churches. They were shaped by 70 years of Soviet rule and its celebration of socialist industrialization, and by the Russian empire before that. To them, the government is now being run by outsiders who care little for this side of the country. "If they try to pressure us, our region will revolt."

"We are simply different people from those living in the East," said Ludmila Petrova, a university student in Lviv, a hotbed of support for Ukraine's pro-democracy forces and opposition to Yanukovych. "They don't know what the West is. We have a different history. Maybe it is better that we separate once and for all."

"The country is already separated," said Ivan Reyko, a 30-year-old factory worker from Donetsk who joined a recent demonstration of about 100 people in the city's main plaza, Lenin Square, where a 30-foot-tall statue of the Soviet hero gazes proudly toward the horizon. "There is no way back to a united Ukraine."

OK . Now tell me what a fuck is this if not an ugly warmongering propaganda even in your "reliable" Guardian . They better shut up and look at their own back yard. I can imagine how different Londoners (if only from some elite parts of London) may feel comparing to for example people from Sheffield where nothing happened in last 30 years and where it actually looks like some God forgotten town in fallen USSR.I visited UK two years ago and that's my impression. Their London Heathrow Airport looked like some old dirty railway station in some God forgotten Eastern country.
They better stop this shit.Maybe they can sell it to increasingly poor Brits who can hardly travel anywhere but to nearest supermarket and do not know that world changed a lot lately.  

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Sun Mar 2nd, 2014 at 02:03:53 AM EST
Why is it that you cannot accept that Ukraine is more complicated than your exclusively pro-Russian view?

Do you really believe that there are no Ukrainians that see their future as "Western" or "European", without being puppets for CIA propaganda?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Mar 2nd, 2014 at 02:40:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I do not think and never said that there are no Ukrainians that see their future with West and EU...but I would like to first see proper REFERENDUM about it. You Europeans had referendums to decide if you want to go to EU ( UK is even planing to have one more again to check people's will and maybe even get out, and some countries had them over and over again because they didn't want it at first so they had to be pushed a bit).
Why Ukrainians are less of the people then you so EU and USA had to help those tugs to come to power and simply DECIDE for Ukrainians to sign ASP agreement to go to EU and most importantly NATO? Are Ukrainians all idiots?
Being puppet of USA unfortunately seem to go together with membership of EU.And seems like there is no choice for countries (at least those new members)  to become members of EU but not Nato members automatically?
EU/USA was the side that gave them ultimatum " either with us or against us".Big mistake.
I am not Pro Russia at all but I am sick of USA bullying especially after fall of USSR. Enough is enough!World is not just west.There are other cultures and other interests. You need to learn to play fear (remember democracy) and unfortunately it seems that it is not possible without show of force on the other side.That's a curse of human nature...seems like we are not that far from animals at all...  

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sun Mar 2nd, 2014 at 06:21:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Here's the issue, I think:  You keep banging on about western propaganda and acting as though folks here aren't aware of it.  It's more than a tad offensive.  Folks here are pretty bright.

Then, hilariously, you post stuff from the opposite side of the propaganda divide and seem oblivious to it being no better.

I already know the Washington Post is shit.  But you don't seem to know that Voice of Russia is shit too.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Thu Mar 6th, 2014 at 08:24:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course I know ...I am not that stupid.
Why I am posting Russian sites (amongst western sites) is because I am searching for trace of truth...anywhere...amongst tones of propaganda on all sides.
Why I am "accusing" some people here of being intoxicated with western propaganda? Because they seem to quote happily just western sites and very rarely the other side.I am not going to name people here ( as requested)...I am not in the business of dividing this community.And I will respect anyone's opinion (but as his personal opinion not as a quote from western media). We have to be aware that if we happily quote those western media propaganda pieces without counter.opposite one's, from the other side, it is same if we are part of that same propaganda machine...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Tue Mar 11th, 2014 at 03:18:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A key bit -- again, as I said, folks here are pretty bright -- is knowing not just where to get info, but when and from whom and how.

I can go to the New York Times and read what they have to say about any issue.  And 95% of it is garbage written by airhead reporters looking for an easy story to write.  Ditto the Wall Street Journal, the Guardian, the BBC, etc.

But I also know that I can read a few people and get some decent insight and analysis, or read stories and pick up what's not bad and what's bullshit.  Understanding the subtleties of the news industry is important.  I understand some, but I'm by no means an expert, because understanding it fully really requires a knowledge of culture and institutions that's above my pay grade when we get to a global scale.

From my perspective, here's what's happened (others feel free to chime in and correct me):  A large group of Ukrainians don't like Yanukovych.  A large group of Ukrainians disagree.  It sounds like the latter group is slightly larger than the former.  Yanukovych fled as the protests escalated.  The US and the EU somewhat supported the protesters.  Russia somewhat opposed them, albeit to a reater degree.

(I always have mixed feelings on that whenever such situations arise.  Obviously I support the right to protest, but elections were held, and Yanukovych won.  He should have the right to serve his term until he's removed by legal means without fear of violence.)

From there, an interim government took over.  Within that government, a lot of dangerous people seized sensitive positions in the defense and intelligence areas.  Right Sector and all of those thugs.  Putin responded by invading Crimea -- probably in part to protect the Russian population, probably in part to try to hold onto his sphere of influence, probably in part due to a whole bunch of other shit.

Putin then held a referendum with what appears to be a ridiculous result.  (C'mon, you can't get 90+% of people to agree on anything.)  The US and EU responded by freezing the assets of a few Russians.  And here we sit.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Mon Mar 17th, 2014 at 08:28:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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