SBU Intercepts Ashton's Phonecall; Maidan Sniper Attack

by Oui Wed Mar 5th, 2014 at 10:45:37 AM EST

[Update] I've posted additional info @Moon of Alabama where this event is being discussed. Some useful links by somebody and my sniper video.

Location sniper video via Google maps: Instytutska St, 9 Kiev, місто Київ, Ukraine, distance from overpass approx. 550 mtr., from this position there is no straigth line of sight to hit any victims near overpass – see my diary with video of incident.

RT: Kiev snipers hired by Maidan leaders - leaked EU's Ashton phone tape date 26 February 2014
(RT) - The snipers who shot at protesters and police in Kiev were allegedly hired by Maidan leaders, according to a leaked phone conversation between the EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton and Estonian foreign affairs minister, which has emerged online.
"There is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers, it was not Yanukovich, but it was somebody from the new coalition," Urmas Paet said during the conversation.
"I think we do want to investigate. I mean, I didn't pick that up, that's interesting. Gosh," Ashton answered.
The call took place after Estonia's Foreign Minister Urmas Paet visited Kiev on February 25 at the peak of clashes between the pro-EU protesters and security forces in the Ukrainian capital. START at 08:25.

Paet also recalled his conversation with a doctor who treated those shot by snipers in Kiev. She said that both protesters and police were shot at by the same people.
"And second, what was quite disturbing, this same Olga [Bogomolets] told as well that all the evidence shows that the people who were killed by snipers from both sides, among policemen and then people from the streets, that they were the same snipers killing people from both sides," the Estonian FM stressed.
Ashton reacted to the information by saying: "Well, yeah...that's, that's terrible."
BTW, I linked the previous Vicky 'Fuck the EU' Nuland intercept to an Anonymous source, FWIW in tracing info on Internet.

Indeed, a false flag operation as I wrote earlier!
Who Were Snipers In Kiev Massacre - A CIA-Svoboda False Flag Op?

More below the fold ...

I'm not familiar with this site, but ... will Turkey keep hands off Crimea?

Crimean Crisis: Nationalists incite Tatars to attacks /Ukraine Breaking News
In the Crimea threaten new bloody clashes between Russians and Crimean Tatars. But cracked by Russian hackers e-mails from the deputy leader of the Crimean Tatars representation "Majlis" Omer Aslan Kirimli, clearly indicate that leading officials of the extreme right-wing "rights industry" want to incite the Crimean Tatars to support acts of terrorism against the Russians in the Crimea.
In a mail requests Andrei Tarasenko, one of the leaders of the "rights industry" of Kirimli to give his comrades `instruments' and the coordinates of hidden weapons caches. The right-wing extremist writes: "Wild there's a lot we need more hunting gear, helmets and sticks." From the context it is clear that with "game" of political opponents are meant active members of the Russian community. Nationalist Crimean Tatars and the "rights industry" have converged at the rallies on the Maidan in Kiev.
The well-known hacker group Anonymous posted online the correspondence between Andrei Tarasenko, the deputy head of the Ukrainian nationalist organization "Trizub imeni Stepan Bandera" and Aslan Omer Kyrymly, the Deputy Chairman of Crimea Tatar Mejlis.

Before Russia's Putin call to enforce R2P policy in Crimea: Ukraine Tensions Flare as Pro-Russians, Crimea Tatars Clash.

○ Erdogan's visit ushers in 'golden era' of Ukraine-Turkey relationship - Sept. 2012

SBU Intercepts Ashton's Phonecall; Maidan Sniper Attack | 63 comments (63 topical, 0 editorial, 2 hidden)

Re: Anonymous Again Intercepts Nuland's Phone; Mai (none / 0)

Where does the Estonian Foreign Minister get reliable information that the US doesn't have?

by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Wed Mar 5th, 2014 at 11:21:13 AM EST

Re: Anonymous Again Intercepts Nuland's Phone (none / 0)

Kiev snipers hired by Maidan leaders - leaked EU's Ashton phone tape -- RT News

The file was reportedly uploaded to the web by officers of Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) loyal to ousted President Viktor Yanukovich who hacked Paet's and Ashton's phones.

How do you make out that this is "Anonymous"? (your title). Why "Nuland's" phone?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2014 at 11:39:28 AM EST

Re: Anonymous Again Intercepts Nuland's Phone (none / 0)

Nuland - a typo. Corrected.

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Wed Mar 5th, 2014 at 12:12:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anonymous Again Intercepts Nuland's Phone (none / 1)

"Anonymous Again Intercepts Nuland's Phone" was not a typo but a false narrative.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Mar 6th, 2014 at 07:19:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anonymous Intercepts Ashton's Phone; Maidan Sn (4.00 / 2)

Olga Bogomolets said she had not told Mr Paet that policemen and protesters had been killed in the same manner.
"Myself I saw only protesters. I do not know the type of wounds suffered by military people," she told The Telegraph. "I have no access to those people."
But she said she had asked for a full forensic criminal investigation into the deaths that occurred in the Maidan. "No one who just sees the wounds when treating the victims can make a determination about the type of weapons. I hope international experts and Ukrainian investigators will make a determination of what type of weapons, who was involved in the killings and how it was done. I have no data to prove anything.
(Telegraph warning)

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2014 at 12:17:58 PM EST

Re: Anonymous Intercepts Ashton's Phone; Maidan Sn (none / 0)

Dr. Olga Bogomolets

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Wed Mar 5th, 2014 at 12:23:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anonymous Intercepts Ashton's Phone; Maidan Sn (none / 1)

I have listened to the intercepted phone conversation on Youtube. It's convincing and I don't doubt I can hear Ashton's voice (I've never heard Paet's before).

But essentially Paet bases what he says about the snipers on Olga Bogomolets' say-so.

she showed me some photos and said she has a medical doctor and that it is the same handwriting and the same type of bullets

Dr Bogomolets is a dermatologist/cosmetologist, in no way concerned with forensic science or ballistics. She herself says there should be an enquiry (quite rightly).

As you say elsewhere, we are in a fog of propaganda about Ukraine. Finding conclusibe evidence in the publications of Russia Today and Voice of Russia is about as sensible as quoting Radio Free Europe/Liberty.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2014 at 03:17:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Olga Bogomolets (4.00 / 2)

I dug up some earlier mentions of Olga Bogomolets:

BBC News - Ukraine protesters 'shot with metal bullets'

Dr Olga Bogomolets told BBC Newshour that she had been treating people who had been shot with metal bullets.

The above was in a report the day after the first clashes (in which, in addition to 14 protesters, the dead included 10 policemen, one journalist and one person not assigned to any side in any report I read). She wasn't yet talking about snipers, but did so the next day:

Truce Crumbles Amid Gunfire in Ukraine, Protesters Claim 100 dead | KTLA 5

Protest medical volunteer Olga Bogomolets accused government forces of shooting to kill, saying she had treated 13 people she believed had been targeted by "professional snipers."
"They were shot directly to their hearts, their brain and to their neck," she said. "They didn't give any chance to doctors, for us, to save lives."
CNN could not independently confirm Bogomolets' claim of sniper fire.

Two days later her claim was specific on the munition:

Article: The Faces of the Ukrainian Uprising: the Ultimate Sacrifice | OpEdNews

Olga Bogomolets, the chief doctor of the mobile clinic said, "The sniper or snipers have worked professionally. All injured in the heart or in the head. All killed by bullet caliber 7.62 mm [Dragunov sniper rifle]. They shot to kill."

Meanwhile, she was nominated into the government, but turned it down:

Ukraine's Mother Teresa Of The Maidan - The Daily Beast

Earlier that night, the new Ukraine's leaders had nominated Bogomolets to be the country's vice-prime minister for humanitarian affairs, making the announcement on the Maidan stage. Thousands on the square applauded in support of Bogomolets, the savior of the conflict's victims, their national Mother Teresa--the "White Angel," as some injured defenders of the Maidan referred to her. "I felt as if they threw me under the tanks: my heart, sensitive to hypocrisy and farce, tells me it would be wrong to belong to the new government of politicians whom I hardly know," Bogomolets confessed in an interview to The Daily Beast.
A priest she spoke with that day had encouraged her not to be scared of giving herself to politics for the sake of people giving their lives to the revolution. But Bogomolets still felt torn about the newly appointed government. She never wanted a political career for herself. Before the revolution, she was famous in Ukraine for her art galleries, her books, her beautiful folk singing and the clinic she had founded over a decade ago, Dr. Bogomolets' Institute of Dermatology and Cosmetology, popular among the country's elite. Besides, she had her own vision of building the new government through a careful vetting of each of its candidates before the Maidan's people congress. "Our main goal is to unite East and West of Ukraine and Crimea around the idea of preserving our nation, of Ukrainian people's health," Bogomolets said.
...The decision she made that night was to turn down the offered position in the new government, her press office confirmed on Thursday morning. The Maidan defenders understood and hoped she would one day make a different decision. "Once again oligarchs crawl into our government, Bogomolets feels that it is wrong to be with them," said Nikolai Strezhak, the leader of a group of famers defending the Maidan, during a protest outside the parliament on Thursday. "She is with us, with people and one day we'll carry her into the parliament in our arms."

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Mar 6th, 2014 at 03:59:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anonymous Intercepts Ashton's Phone; (none / 1)

Seriously, can we stop fucking jumping on every crappy piece of propaganda that supports our personal agenda of the day?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2014 at 12:21:29 PM EST

Re: Anonymous Intercepts Ashton's Phone; (none / 0)

If it doesn't hold water, I don't write about it.

As I mentioned before ...
The media airwaves are filly with unbelievable rhetoric from two strange, unrealistic worlds. Watching and listening today to CNNi, BBC, Sky News, Al Jazeera and Russia Today, come to one conclusion: pure propaganda. I found one quite level headed response ...

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Wed Mar 5th, 2014 at 12:47:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anonymous????? (none / 1)

Why on earth do you present this phone tapping as the work of "Anonymous"?

At the link you provide, we learn :

Officers of Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) loyal to the ousted President Viktor Yanukovich have hacked phones of Estonian Minister of Foreign Affairs Urmas Paet and High Representative of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy Catherine Ashton and leaked their conversation to the web.

Your link goes to a Youtube posted by Michael Bergman, about three hours ago.
When I scratch a bit more : This recording was posted earlier, apparently five hours ago, by "Expertise Centre of The Russian Federation".

So, rather than an Anonymous hack, it's a hack by Ukranian spooks, propagated by a Russian propaganda service.

Are you not doing a bit of false-flagging yourself?
How about changing the title of your diary to reflect something more truthful?

_{It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II}

by eurogreen on Wed Mar 5th, 2014 at 01:18:59 PM EST

Intercepts Ashton's Phone (none / 0)

Thanks.

Here is a link - Expertise Centre of The Russian Federation.

Their website: About us. Cultural exchange for students.
Location registrar: Beuningen in Holland
Admin: Copenhagen, Denmark
Creation date: Oct. 23, 2013.

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Wed Mar 5th, 2014 at 02:18:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Extended coverage @Moon of Alabama (none / 0)

Ukraine: Ashton Phonecall On Maidan Snipers.
Someone recorded a phone call between the Estonian foreign minister Paet and the EU high representative Ashton.

○ ...
○ the same Olga [Dr. Olga Bogomolets] (from a civil society group) told me that people killed by snipers on both sides, among policemen and people on the street, that they were the same snipers killing people from both sides, she showed me some photos and said she has a medical doctor and that it is the same handwriting and the same t ype of bullets and it is disturbing that the new coalition now don't want to investigate (8:25)
○ There is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind snipers it was not Yanukovich but it was somebody from the new coalition. (8:55)
○ it discredited itself from the very beginning this new coalition (9:20)
Note: This call does not prove that the snipers came from the new coalition site. But it is a hint that this must be investigated.
Using snipers in such fashion is not uncommon. Snipers shooting at both sides in a civil conflict have been documented during the coup attempt against Chavez, the during the red-shirt vs. yellow-shirt conflicts in Thailand and during protests in Syria.

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Wed Mar 5th, 2014 at 02:24:02 PM EST

British Papers Cover Revelation Maidan Snipers (none / 0)

Ukraine crisis: bugged call reveals conspiracy theory about Kiev snipers
(The Guardian) - A leaked phone call between the EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton and Estonian foreign minister Urmas Paet has revealed that the two discussed a conspiracy theory that blamed the killing of civilian protesters in the Ukrainian capital, Kiev, on the opposition rather than the ousted government.
The 11-minute conversation was posted on YouTube - it is the second time in a month that telephone calls between western diplomats discussing Ukraine have been bugged.
In the call, Paet said he had been told snipers responsible for killing police and civilians in Kiev last month were protest movement provocateurs rather than supporters of then-president Viktor Yanukovych. Ashton responds: "I didn't know ... Gosh."
The leak came a day after the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, said the snipers may have been opposition provocateurs. The Kremlin-funded Russia Today first carried the leaked call online.
The Estonian foreign ministry confirmed the leaked conversation was accurate. It said: "Foreign minister Paet was giving an overview of what he had heard in Kiev and expressed concern over the situation on the ground. We reject the claim that Paet was giving an assessment of the opposition's involvement in the violence." Ashton's office said it did not comment on leaks.
During the conversation, Paet quoted a woman named Olga - who the Russian media identified her as Olga Bogomolets, a doctor - blaming snipers from the opposition shooting the protesters.
"What was quite disturbing, this same Olga told that, well, all the evidence shows that people who were killed by snipers from both sides, among policemen and people from the streets, that they were the same snipers killing people from both sides," Paet said.
"So she also showed me some photos, she said that as medical doctor, she can say it is the same handwriting, the same type of bullets, and it's really disturbing that now the new coalition, that they don't want to investigate what exactly happened."
"So there is a stronger and stronger understanding that behind snipers it was not Yanukovych, it was somebody from the new coalition," Paet says.
The Independent: Ukraine: Kiev snipers reportedly hired by opposition leaders not Yanukovich according to 'bugged call'

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Wed Mar 5th, 2014 at 04:13:34 PM EST

Re: British Papers Cover Revelation Maidan Snipers (none / 0)

Add that the Independent is owned by the Lebedev brothers, who are oligarchs politically opposed to Putin...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 5th, 2014 at 04:19:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: British Papers Cover Revelation Maidan Snipers (none / 0)

May be, but Oui actually quoted the article from The Guardian (BTW, violating the guideline to keep your quote as short and concise as possible), only confusingly added a link to The Independent within the same blockquote rather than after it.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Mar 6th, 2014 at 07:25:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Channel 4 coverage: Leaked Call Is Authentic (none / 0)

Channel 4 : British EU chief hears Ukraine shooting claim in bugged call
In a leaked phone call, believed to be between EU foreign policy chief Cathy Ashton and Estonia's foreign minister Urmas Paet, it is claimed Ukraine protesters were shot on the orders of their own leaders.
In the conversation the speakers discuss a suspicion that snipers who shot protesters in Kiev's Independence Square, at the height of the Maidan protests, had been hired by opposition leaders, not the Ukrainian government of ousted President Yanukovych.
"There is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers
it was not Yanukovych, but it was somebody from the new coalition."
Urmas Paet
In the recording, the male voice says he has been told of evidence suggesting that one group was responsible for shooting both riot police and protesters alike, and that there is a 'stronger and stronger understanding' that one of the Maidan leaders organised the shootings.

"And it's really disturbing that now the new coalition [government], they don't want to investigate what exactly happened, so that there is now a stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers it was not Yanukovych, but it was somebody from the new coalition."
Baroness Ashton apparently responds: "I think they do want to investigate, and I didn't know... pick that up - gosh." Mr Paet says the evidence "discredits from the very beginning" Ukraine's new leadership.
Estonia Foreign Minister Urmas Paet confirms leaked call is authentic

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Wed Mar 5th, 2014 at 04:51:44 PM EST

Re: Channel 4 coverage: Leaked Call Is Authentic (none / 1)

The question is not whether the call is authentic, but whether the personal opinion accredited to this Olga is correct and supported by evidence. Colman's link indicates not even Olga Bogomolets stands behind Paet's characterisation of her claims.

<sub>*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.</sub>

by DoDo on Thu Mar 6th, 2014 at 03:41:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: SBU Intercepts Ashton's Phonecall; (none / 1)

http://www.moonofalabama.org/

Paet reports from his talks with somewhat neutral people on the Maidan, including some Olga that Ashton also knows, during a recent visit in Kiev:
there is no trust of the people in the new government (2:35)
all of them in the new government have a dirty past (2:50)
the trust level (towards the new government) is absolutely low (3:20)
enormous pressure against (party of the region) members of parliament (3:40)
"uninvited visitors" enter in the night on party members (3:50)
journalists who were with me saw during the day that one member of parliament was just beaten in front of the parliament (4:00)
people will not leave the street before real reforms start, it is not enough that there is just change of government (4:20)
the same Olga (from a civil society group) told me that people killed by snipers on both sides, among policemen and people on the street, that they were the same snipers killing people from both sides, she showed me some photos and said she has a medical doctor and that it is the same handwriting and the same type of bullets and it is disturbing that the new coalition now don't want to investigate (8:25)
There is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind snipers it was not Yanukovich but it was somebody from the new coalition. (8:55)
it discredited itself from the very beginning this new coalition (9:20)

OK.Now if Olga had at the time any reason (???) to tell Estonian FM false information as you suggest or if Estonian FM had any reason to lie to Ashton (???) / my head is spinning of these stupidities right now/ then let's go trough these OTHER points of his report to Ashton...one by one...
Please , it's your turn now...you must have some good (Laughable) explanation on each of them.I would specially like to hear one about how Yanukovych party members VOLUNTARILY voted on all the shit this government produced...and keep producing. I love the most recent 10 years of prison to those with double citizenship and about use of just Latin alphabet...Such a great democracy you are supporting here...It's your turn to go trough Estonian FM report...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Thu Mar 6th, 2014 at 06:26:59 AM EST

Re: SBU Intercepts Ashton's Phonecall; (none / 0)

From 1920 to 1945, Estonia's border with Russia, set by the 1920 Tartu Peace Treaty, extended beyond the Narva River in the northeast and beyond the town of Pechory (Petseri) in the southeast. This territory, amounting to some 2,300 square kilometres (888 sq mi), was incorporated into Russia by Stalin at the end of World War II. For this reason the borders between Estonia and Russia are still not defined.

No reason to lie, eh?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 6th, 2014 at 06:53:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: SBU Intercepts Ashton's Phonecall; (none / 0)

What reason you see there? If anything he should lie that Russia and Yanukovych did it, not Kiev western propped "government" .I do not get your point here.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Thu Mar 6th, 2014 at 07:01:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: SBU Intercepts Ashton's Phonecall; (none / 0)

For being in Australia you seem to know extremely well the motivations and context of everyone in Ukraine. How do you do it?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 6th, 2014 at 07:05:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: SBU Intercepts Ashton's Phonecall; (none / 0)

You mean the estonian FM would lie to improve the position of Yanukovich and/or Russia in the hopes of gaining land?

I don't think that would be a reasonable expectation for the estonian FM.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Mar 6th, 2014 at 09:02:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: SBU Intercepts Ashton's Phonecall; (none / 0)

So then the Estonians are fabricating a Western conspiracy so that Russia will return this area to them?

This makes less sense than some of the things that have been coming from the Russian side. Not to mention, that I imagine the last thing that they Estonians want is more Russians in their country.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Mar 6th, 2014 at 02:02:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: SBU Intercepts Ashton's Phonecall; (none / 0)

vbo:

Such a great democracy you are supporting here.

It's just so tiring that you keep on saying stupid things like this.

I have seen no one here "supporting" those who have taken over the Ukrainian government.

What we don't support is bullshit Russian propaganda, any more than bullshit Western propaganda.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Mar 6th, 2014 at 07:05:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Snipers: from the SBU (4.00 / 2)

I re-post from the Newsroom what I just found.

The caught on the SvobodaTV video as well as the photo below, does appear to be professionals, with special uniform:

These guys with yellow armbands and insignia below the armbands appear to be members of a special team under Ukraine's Security Service. Their arrival at Maidan is shown at the end of this YouTube video ("СБУ" on the back of the first guy at 1:05 is the acronym of the Security Service of Ukraine, as pointed out in the comments in Ukrainian):

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Mar 6th, 2014 at 06:56:50 AM EST

Re: Snipers: from the SBU (none / 0)

Interesting, parliament (Verkhovna Rada) on 24 Februari 2014 voted to appoint SBU veteran Valentyn Nalyvaichenko (Dec. 22, 2006 - March 11, 2009) to head this goverrnment bureau. From your link, there are many transgressions in the past by SBU officials, although it is mentioned the group is a-political.

My basic complaint was the black-ops with no insignes were spliced to an amateur video of the massacre on Instytutska Street (20.02.2014) near the overpass. The Guardian and MSM claimed the sniper attacks were government sponsored without any proof! Quote: "Link to video: Ukrainian police fire at protesters in Kiev."

As an independent thinker, it was my own analysis to raise doubt about the propaganda coming from the violent groups participating in the people's rebellion on Median Square. The latest developments indicate there may be a third power working behind the scenes. In my earliest diaries I wrote about the thugs (titushkis) who were for hire by all parties, the government forces and the right-wing fascist political parties. I even showed that a large group switched sides early december 2013, from government to the opposition at Maidan Square.

For myself, this topic is now complete and I will sign off.

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Thu Mar 6th, 2014 at 07:56:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Snipers: from the SBU (none / 1)

From your link, there are many transgressions in the past by SBU officials, although it is mentioned the group is a-political.

It's a group under the government: nominally apolitical and in service of the government, but like all government organisations exposed to the possibility of being headed by political appointments, and a potential tool in the hands of any corrupt government.

MSM claimed the sniper attacks were government sponsored without any proof!

Weak proof, but well-trained uniformly-clad snipers working in police-controlled area without interference from other police units is evidence.

As an independent thinker, it was my own analysis to raise doubt about the propaganda

Well you went beyond that, making some bold claims about fake videos (and using propaganda from the other side).

The latest developments indicate there may be a third power working behind the scenes.

No, that's merely a line Russian propaganda continues to peddle in denial of evidence, now with demonstrably false claims from the head of the Berkut (which my original comment in the Newsroom was commenting).

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Mar 6th, 2014 at 08:13:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Snipers: from the SBU (none / 1)

I remember seeing some sort of a reference to the sniper's kit. I'm imagining that their firearms may be more indicative of origin than any anything else that they had on them. This is how they id'd that the troops in Crimea were walking around using Russian kit.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Mar 6th, 2014 at 02:04:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Snipers: from the SBU (4.00 / 2)

I remember seeing some sort of a reference to the sniper's kit

Upthread an article with a quote from Olga Bogomolets before the intercepted call names the Dragunov sniper rifle. Could be, but those seem pretty widespread.

the troops in Crimea were walking around using Russian kit

Some even gave themselves away, and I think the Guardian reporter on the ground reported at one meeting at an Ukrainian base, the officers knew each other.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Mar 6th, 2014 at 03:27:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Snipers: from the SBU (4.00 / 2)

I looked above. I get from what Bogomolets was saying that they id'd the rifle from the caliber of bullets recovered. Which interested me, because that size is almost identical to NATO standard rounds. So.... again no real information.

I think that an investigation is in order, and that a joint US/Russian investigation could actually clam things down. Because it focuses people on what happened that day, not what they can do next to make their point. More jaw-jaw, less war war. Halting further escalation would benefit everyone. This whole situation is starting to feel like the Guns of August.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Mar 6th, 2014 at 04:52:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Snipers: from the SBU (none / 1)

they id'd the rifle from the caliber of bullets recovered

I also looked at what the yellow armband snipers carried, and apparently so did the Maidan witnesses making the claim.

Snipers sow fear and death in Kiev's urban conflict | Reuters

Protesters said snipers, armed with Soviet-made SVD or SVS weapons and given cover by armed police, used high ground near the October Palace to shoot down onto protesters who earlier that day had advanced up the hill to reclaim lost positions.

Of the two types of weapons they appear to carry, one does resemble the SVDS variant of the Dragunov. But, as indicated, Dragunov variants are used all across the former Soviet Union, so hard to make an identification based on that.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Mar 6th, 2014 at 05:33:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Snipers: from the SBU (none / 1)

Surely everyone involved would have been working with more-or-less the same weapons, with the better equipped Russian units having more modern stuff than everyone else? The Russian troops were a bit obvious because they'd been issued shiny new gear.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 6th, 2014 at 04:57:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Snipers: from the SBU (none / 1)

Well, this is how they pinned down that troops in the Crimea were either Russian, or using Russian equipment.

The unmarked but professionally equipped soldiers are almost certainly Russian "spetsnaz" units, according to Igor Sutyagin, a Russian military expert, who was imprisoned for several years by the Kremlin as a spy and is now a London-based analyst at the think-tank Rusi ...
Pictures of troops blockading Ukrainian facilities show them wearing izlom camouflage - obtainable in shops but used almost exclusively by Russian special forces. Many of the soldiers are also pictured carrying far more specialised kit: VSS Vintorez sniper rifles and NRS-2 knives, both standard-issue spetsnaz equipment.

If we can narrow down the weapons used that day at the end of February, that narrows the list of suspects. And it seems that there is widespread support on both sides for an investigation. By forcing both sides to wait for the results of that investigation, I think that you provide a context for things to de-escalate.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Mar 6th, 2014 at 05:13:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Snipers: from the SBU (none / 1)

There should be an investigation; but I showed better evidence than the guns, which could be used by any shadow force the sides can imagine.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Mar 6th, 2014 at 05:22:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Snipers: from the SBU (4.00 / 2)

but I showed better evidence than the guns

I've been skimming, so I'll have to read back through.

I'm deeply worried about the jingoism on all sides about this one. An actual shooting war involving the United States and Russian Federation would be very, very bad.

My views are probably colored by being here in the US, and seeing things Fox News asking why we aren't at war with Russia yet. Or even inflammatory piles of shit like this on Daily Kos.

The idea that what happened in Kiev was a CIA operation is a reach to far for me. That someone in Right Sector, or the like, got the bright idea that a final provocation was needed. That's something I'd like to see excluded as a possibility through a thorough investigation.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Mar 6th, 2014 at 06:05:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Snipers: from the SBU (none / 0)

it may be a reach, but it's possible that the right in america is pumping the war-urge so to put obama into a position where he could be seen to massively fail, whether he goes peace or war he loses.

another semi-suicidal political ploy, like the budget obstructionism.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Mar 6th, 2014 at 07:08:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Snipers: from the SBU (4.00 / 2)

I really don't think that there s anyone dumb enough to think that this is a good idea in the US intelligence community. (Which confirms how incredibly stupid arranging a false flag attack like this is, if that is what happened.)

I do think that a substantial part of the Republican party has a hard on for escalation, because they think that they can use this as a talking point for building LNG facilities to export to Europe. Newt Gingrich was all over this on CNN.....

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Mar 6th, 2014 at 08:40:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Snipers: from the SBU (none / 0)

ah, another piece of the puzzle falls into place.

newt, holy cow, is he the best they got?

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2014 at 12:58:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Snipers: from the SBU (4.00 / 3)

My views are probably colored by being here in the US, and seeing things Fox News asking why we aren't at war with Russia yet.

Yes, the warming-up New Cold War is full on in the media. Worse: in Europe, too, the media is for escalation, and that even against their own pro-negotiation governments. But they don't think about what they want the governments to do, to achieve what, not to mention thinking about unintended consequences like a runaway escalation. This morning I saw an interview with an Austrian government representative who tried to bring this point across very carefully, and had to repeat it multiple times to a clearly dissatisfied public TV journalist.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Mar 7th, 2014 at 04:59:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Snipers: from the SBU (none / 1)

DoDo:

This morning I saw an interview with an Austrian government representative who tried to bring this point across very carefully, and had to repeat it multiple times to a clearly dissatisfied public TV journalist.

this is unfortunately becoming the norm, constant leading questions that breathlessly attempt to corner the subject into going beyond what he says into speculative territory of what the worst thing that could/will happen would be. there's a kind of obsessive compulsion to amp everything up into the scariest possible level.

us? but we are only reporting! media is out of control in the same way big banks or the MIC are. coincidentally...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2014 at 05:11:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Snipers: from the SBU (4.00 / 2)

Bildt is out in force, really cranking up the old Rysskräck. Recently he called Yanukovych a quisling for fleeing and begging nother country to bring him back to power. Bildt really needs to read up on our western neighbour and which government it was that went into exile.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Mar 8th, 2014 at 02:18:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Snipers: from the SBU (4.00 / 2)

I've been skimming, so I'll have to read back through.

I meant the very first post in this thread (Snipers from the SBU, duh). Now I found further confirmation in a Spiegel article from three days ago; from an anonymously interviewed Ukrainian oligarch who fled to Moscow (Note: "ALFA unit" was the inofficial name of the KGB hit teams, inherited by post-Soviet successors):

Post Yanukovych Ukraine Looks to Avoid Past Pitfalls - SPIEGEL ONLINE

Oleg can effortlessly recite the names of section heads responsible for issues pertaining to Russia and Ukraine in the foreign ministries of Western European capitals. He knows them all. He soberly recounts how Europe rebuffed him and his delegation while the Kremlin ratcheted up the economic pressure on Ukraine in recent years. "The EU should have gotten involved," he says.
Then Oleg explains the preparations made by Yanukovych to storm Independence Square, the location of the mass protests that ultimately brought down his government. Oleg says he knows that fighters from the elite ALFA unit were responsible for setting fire to opposition headquarters and that ALFA snipers opened fire on demonstrators from the rooftops of surrounding buildings. "Everything went according to plan. But then Yanukovych suddenly flinched and ordered the offensive to be stopped," Oleg says.
He says that when foreign ministers Frank-Walter Steinmeier, Laurent Fabius and Radoslaw Sikorski spent the night negotiating with Yanukovych on February 20-21, the Ukrainian president's aides were busily preparing his escape. "They packed up suitcases and boxes. In the end, the helicopters were so heavy that they could hardly take off," Oleg says.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Mar 7th, 2014 at 12:55:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Snipers: from the SBU (none / 0)

it's de gold wot does that, really tweaks the old fuel consumption too.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Mar 7th, 2014 at 01:01:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Snipers: from the SBU (none / 0)

Alpha Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kiev territorial unit of Group "A" was converted into Service "C" of the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) in 1992.^[5] Nevertheless, it has continued to be informally called "Alpha". According to some reports, the unit might have been involved in the deadly use of live ammunition against the opposition during the 2014 uprising against President Viktor Yanukovych in Kiev.^[67]

The last footnote is to an article in Ukrainian from 20 February, which adds the details that the snipers lived on the premises of Cabinet, and another evidence linking them to the SBU is that the SUV with the identified registration number used to park regularly in front of the Alpha unit HQ.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Mar 6th, 2014 at 07:58:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Snipers: from the SBU (none / 0)

MAIDAN THAT DOES NOT SHOW ON TV:
<a href="HTTP:/GOO.GL/D8u9Rw">HTTP:/GOO.GL/D8u9Rw</a> YouTube

by romans74 on Sat Mar 8th, 2014 at 03:43:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: SBU Intercepts Ashton's Phonecall; (none / 1)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5dc_1393953567

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Thu Mar 6th, 2014 at 07:05:51 AM EST

Re: SBU Intercepts Ashton's Phonecall; (none / 0)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ec1_1392923593&comments=1

Thanks for that little bit of support, much appreciated. Bye for now. I'll be adding my posts on this topic @ Billmon's MofA: Ukraine: Yuck, I agree with Kissenger.

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Thu Mar 6th, 2014 at 08:02:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: SBU Intercepts Ashton's Phonecall; (none / 0)

billion's what now? MoA has nothing to do with him, last I looked.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 6th, 2014 at 08:08:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: SBU Intercepts Ashton's Phonecall; (none / 0)

MofA was never Billmon's and isn't now.

@Billmon is on Twitter.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Mar 6th, 2014 at 10:25:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Maidan Ukraina - Sniper (none / 1)

Maidan Ukraina - Truth about snipers: Klichko, Turchinov or Yatsenyuk? Events chronology:
http://goo.gl/D8u9Rw
click "subtitles" then "english" at right corner

by romans74 on Sat Mar 8th, 2014 at 03:34:55 AM EST

Re: Maidan Ukraina - Sniper (none / 0)

@06:43 an armed gunman from opposition reloading what appears to be a shotgun. Right in front of the media Hotel Ukraine.

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Sat Mar 8th, 2014 at 05:34:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Spetsnaz Units in Ukraine (none / 0)

Mystery Mercenaries in Donets'k

Author analyzed event and concludes it's a unit Спецназ (Alpha) СБУ - SWAT (Alpha) SBU. History of the Spetsnaz units in Ukraine after collapse of the USSR - here.

There is a US Security Guard located in Kyiv, Ukraine. Training exercises here and TopGuard website here.

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Wed Mar 12th, 2014 at 04:42:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Spetsnaz Units in Ukraine (none / 1)

Your link is interesting for its further link to a full, well-documented post by Paul Woodward on War in Context,`Blackwater' in Ukraine: The etiology of a conspiracy theory. Woodward takes apart the entire "Blackwater" buzz from A to Z.

`Blackwater' in Ukraine: The etiology of a conspiracy theory

On March 2, a post appeared on a livejournal page belonging to "stbcaptain" which claimed, "According to our Ukrainian friends," ("По информации наших украинских друзей") up to 300 people employed by "Greystone Limited" had arrived at Kiev's international airport that night, noting Greystone's connection to Xe Services, formerly known as Blackwater.
Two days later, Voltaire Network, a favorite watering hole for conspiracy theorists, ran the headline, "US mercenaries deployed in Southern Ukraine." The source for their brief report: Russian political scientist Alexander Dugin.
That Dugin's name was linked to this story so early in its creation, is probably quite significant. While Voltaire refers to him simply as a political scientist, he is also the leading ideologist behind the Eurasia Movement seeking the restoration of the Russian Empire.
"Rather than rejecting totalitarian ideologies, Eurasianism calls upon politicians of the twenty-first century to draw what is useful from both fascism and Stalinism," writes Timothy Snyder from Yale.
Dugin is committed to the break up of Ukraine. In a "letter to the American people on Ukraine" published on the website Open Revolt, which is affiliate with the white supremacist American Front, Dugin wrote on March 8:
Ukraine as it was during the 23 years of its history has ceased to exist. It is irreversible. Russia has integrated Crimea and declared herself the guarantor of the liberty of the freedom of choice of the East and South of Ukraine (Novorossia).
The same day that Voltaire posted its Dugan-sourced "U.S. mercenaries" story, a strange video appeared on YouTube, "USA military mercenary BlackWater in Ukraine (Donetsk)," posted on the obscure iRusTV channel. The video shows a group of men dressed in paramilitary gear, supposedly on the streets of the eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk, running around in confusion.

The video was posted on ET here. Your response, based on a secret tip from an anonymous informer and on The Daily Beast (see Woodward for a takedown of the latter), was to say Blackwater (Academi) was not in Donetsk but in Crimea, paid by Russia (as if Russia needed to use security operatives rather than its own armed forces present in Crimea).

The thing is, the Internet buzz around "Blackwater" served to confirm the impression (beloved of CT-minded Western lefties) that Ukrainian events were manipulated by American operatives or their hires. By now it should be clear that the buzz was based on nothing at all.

Just more fog from the propaganda machines - and it comes from both sides.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Mar 12th, 2014 at 05:58:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: SBU Intercepts Ashton's Phonecall; (none / 0)

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-snipers-security-chief-438/

Former chief of Ukraine's Security Service has confirmed allegations that snipers who killed dozens of people during the violent unrest in Kiev operated from a building controlled by the opposition on Maidan square.
Read full interview with Aleksandr Yakimenko
Shots that killed both civilians and police officers were fired from the Philharmonic Hall building in Ukraine's capital, former head of the Security Service of Ukraine Aleksandr Yakimenko told Russia 1 channel. The building was under full control of the opposition and particularly the so-called Commandant of Maidan self-defense Andrey Parubiy who after the coup was appointed as the Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine, Yakimenko added.

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Thu Mar 13th, 2014 at 09:16:30 AM EST

SBU Intercepts Ashton's Phonecall; Maidan Sniper Attack | 63 comments (63 topical, 0 editorial, 2 hidden)

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SBU Intercepts Ashton's Phonecall; Maidan Sniper Attack

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