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Dutch PM Rutte Abruptly Calls-off MH-17 Recovery Mission

by Oui Wed Aug 6th, 2014 at 02:39:31 PM EST


Most likely the Dutch government has received intelligence of increased violence in the Donetsk region. Ukranian warplanes straved the city of Donetsk last night. Ukraine has used ballistic missiles in their attack on the anti-Kiev rebels in eastern Ukraine. Russia has advanced 20,000 troops along the border with Ukraine. There is a chance Putin will decide to intervene on the U.N. principle of R2P, the Right to Protect.

Russia has asked for the U.N. Security Council to meet about the worsening humanitarian situation for the Russian-speaking population.

NOS: Recovery Mission Stopped and NRC news blog
Transcript PM Rutte: 'Repatriëringsmissie in huidige vorm gestaakt' [Dutch]
Dutch Safety Board OvV - report of flight recorders delayed by weeks, does not meet official deadline

My earlier report today ...

Nieuwsuur August 5, 2014

Airlift cargo from Eindhoven, The Netherlands to Kharkiv, Ukraine in joint Dutch/Australian MH-17 Recovery Mission.

Australian cargo planes 24/7 continu flights from Eindhoven to Kharkiv loaded with 100 ton goods. Presumably for medical facilities, six ambulances, a humvee armored vehicle. Two planes are in use. Any idea if more than medical/rescue goods are involved?

Facebook RAAF: Operation Bring Them Home

The Royal Australia Air Force contribution to Operation Bring Them Home has continued, with a C-17A Globemaster transporting medical equipment and supplies into the Ukraine on August 1st, 2014. The Australian Government continues to work alongside Dutch and Ukrainian authorities to ensure the swift identification and repatriation of victims of the MH17 tragedy. (See photos}

Two Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) C-17A Globemasters and a KC-30A Multi Role Tanker Transport, all from RAAF Base Amberley near Brisbane, sit on the tarmac at Eindhoven Airfield.

NATO/European Strategic Airlift Capability (SAC). Heavy Airlift C-17 supports MH17 ops

NATO says Russian invasion is imminent

Further updates below the fold …

NATO warns Russian 'peacekeepers' could invade Ukraine

(France24) - NATO officials warned on Wednesday that Russia could use the excuse of an humanitarian or peacekeeping mission to invade eastern Ukraine while revealing that Moscow had amassed 20,000 combat-ready troops near the border in recent days.

Moscow has been steadily building up its military forces in recent days, suggesting that Russia could respond to Kiev’s military gains in eastern Ukraine by launching a cross-border invasion.

NATO’s statement said it was concerned Moscow could use “the pretext of a humanitarian or peacekeeping mission as an excuse to send troops into Eastern Ukraine”. The warning comes after the alleged sighting of several Russian military vehicles bearing the Cyrillic insignia for "peacekeeping" near its border with Ukraine.

“The Ukrainian military has now surrounded Donetsk. They have already begun bombing several suburbs. It could be very bloody when they finally storm the city centre,” Stéphane Siohan, a freelance journalist based in Kiev, told FRANCE 24.

Kiev fears that the pro-Russian separatists will request a “humanitarian” intervention from Moscow if Ukrainian forces come close to defeating the rebels in Donetsk. Siohan described eastern Ukraine’s industrial hub as a ghost town where civilians were afraid of going out in the streets.

Cross-posted my diary @BooMan - Dutch PM Rutte Abruptly Calls-off MH-17 Recovery Mission.

Press release PM Rutte of The Netherlands, Ministerie van Algemene Zaken:
    "Morgen vertrekt uit Charkov een vlucht met een grote hoeveelheid gevonden bagage uit de wagon en uit het gebied, op weg naar Nederland.

    Uit recent verkregen informatie van een Oekraïense arts-officier die de hulpverlening de eerste dagen heeft gecoördineerd blijkt dat toen intensief is gezocht in het gebied, met behulp van 800 vrijwilligers. Er zijn in die dagen veel lichamen geborgen en die zijn inmiddels ook allemaal terug in Nederland. Het feit dat onze onderzoeksteams de afgelopen dagen weinig stoffelijke overschotten hebben gevonden, lijkt erop te wijzen dat er vlak na de ramp gelukkig meer is gebeurd dan wij tot nu toe dachten."


    "Tomorrow a flight will depart from Kharkiv with a large amounf of found luggage from the wagon [train station in Torez] and from the area, to The Netherlands.

    Recent information obtained from a Ukrainian medical officer, who coordinated the recovery in the early days, has shown that there was an intensive search in the area, with the help of 800 volunteers. In those early days, many bodies have been recovered which have now been returned to The Netherlands. The fact that our research teams over the past days have found few remains, seems to indicate that, fortunately, more happened than we had thought right after the disaster."

This contradicts all the false publications originating in Washington, propagated by Australians, British, and Dutch officials the crash-site was plundered, pilfered and not well taken care of by the pro-Russian rebels controling the area. The train wagon guarded by rebels in Torez had stored all valuables and personal items found by the locals after the crash.

Who Mislaid the Malaysian MH-17 Black Boxes?
Shrapnel Damage of Cockpit MH-17 Devastating
The Dutch Have Gone Mad [More Mad]

by Oui on Thu Aug 7th, 2014 at 02:44:18 AM EST
all the false publications originating in Washington, propagated by Australians, British, and Dutch officials the crash-site was plundered, pilfered and not well taken care of by the pro-Russian rebels controling the area

Please cite these "publications".

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2014 at 03:22:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by Oui on Thu Aug 7th, 2014 at 04:20:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Essentially what you point to (with the exception of Abbott who has made extreme statements all along) concerns the lack of access in the first days for international observers. Have you offered evidence that international observers were offered free access in the early days?

Your citation above of Rutte concerns collection of the bodies (which was carried out by local pro-Russians, that has never been in doubt), and of an unspecified amount of luggage and personal belongings. Rutte is back-pedalling on the number of bodies and the recovery of luggage, nothing else.

What remains unknown is whether any aircraft debris was removed from the scene and not made available to international investigators. There is no evidence either way on this point.

In all, I don't see evidence for your language: "plundered" "pilfered". Neither do you offer evidence that "the false publications originat(ed) in Washington" (though that remains possible), and your "Obama fulmigates bs and false information, pure anti-Putin propaganda" is a point of view that seems overstated (though the aim of his communication is clearly anti-Russian).

You need to produce evidence that international observers were offered genuine free access to the crash site in the first days. (The OSCE playing nice and saying "Yes, we have access" is not good enough.) In fact, the pro-Russians really did do all the post-crash examination, and were slow to attempt to reassure that they were doing things properly. The noise around that is unsurprising.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2014 at 05:25:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Essentially what you point to (with the exception of Abbott who has made extreme statements all along) concerns the lack of access in the first days for international observers. Have you offered evidence that international observers were offered free access in the early days?
The rebels claim it was the Ukrainian government that denied access to the international observers.

BBC: Transcript: Borodai defends Ukraine rebels over MH17 (24 July, 2014)

Q: "Nevertheless, for several days, international inspectors did not have access to the crash site."

A: "That's a lie. How did they not have access? Excuse me. We invited the international experts and waited for them to arrive. But Kiev was blocking them at every turn. Kiev quite obviously didn't want anyone to come. Through all possible channels I personally, and all other members of our government, called on, insisted, practically yelled at the representatives of the international organisations. We were shouting: 'Come as quickly as possible and bring your experts, damn it! Why are you not bringing them?'"

Q: "Maybe they were afraid?"

A: "Maybe they were afraid but that means that the Kiev side intimidated them because, for our part, we immediately announced that we'd provide all possible guarantees of safety. But obviously, when they start asking how those guarantees can be 100% - well, how can there be 100% guarantees of safety in a country at war? It's absurd. You can see that yourself."

Q: What do you say to the accusation that your forces just allowed the bodies to decompose in the summer heat?

A: "We wanted to collect the bodies from the very beginning but we were under extreme pressure from the OSCE [Organisation for Security Organisation in Europe] representative, who said to us: 'I represent 57 countries. Don't you dare touch the bodies of the dead. Under no circumstances. Or else all the 57 countries of the OSCE will do this and that to you. This is terrible. You need to wait for the experts.' So we wait a day. We wait a second day. A third day. Come on! Not a single expert. We say: 'Where are you, dear experts? Where are you? Where is the international community? Why is it not coming here?' They're just sitting in Kiev. Well to leave the bodies there any longer, in 30-degree heat is absurd. It's simply inhuman. It's a scene from a horror movie."

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2014 at 05:32:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm guessing it's OSCE protocol that you access any particular territory through the official authorities of that territory. Obviously, the pragmatic way to access the crash zone would have been through Russia, which seems to have been practicing an open-border policy with the rebel-held territories. But that probably wasn't an option open to the OSCE.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Thu Aug 7th, 2014 at 05:38:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Trouble was, the Rebels were also claiming to be cut off from the Russian border by the Ukrainian army.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2014 at 05:41:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I suggest taking a look at the selection of Western and Russian media reports I posted in the 21 July Newsroom here.

And particularly going over to the (first item) BBC reporter's article and photos.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2014 at 05:53:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Note the date. Translation:
"OSCE asks permission of rebels to enter side-road. 'No', says the rebel leader. The OSCE listens."

OSCE observers were at the crash site at least from July 19, so maximally 48 hours after the crash. Koens was interviewed yesterday, and he insisted that certainly in the early days when OSCE was at the scene, OSCE was on the leash of the rebels and did not have full access at the crash area.

by Bjinse on Thu Aug 7th, 2014 at 01:15:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Read about the OSCE SMM Mission in Ukraine

OSCE Report: Michael Bociurkiw. UCMC, 20th of July 2014

OSCE Report: Michael Bociurkiw. UCMC, 19th of July 2014

18 July until 18:00:  The SMM obtained very limited access to the crash site of Malaysia Airlines MH17, which came down on 17 July near Hrabove (79 km east of Donetsk). There were dead bodies at the scene, marked, but exposed to the elements. No process of debris collection was observed. Some of the 'Donetsk People's Republic's` guards were visibly intoxicated and aggressive.

See my earlier posts where I quoted direct from the OSCE SMM mission:
Ukraine OSCE Mission Reports - MH-17 Crisis  

Try to understand the mission of the OSCE for the oblast Donetsk, the method used by the non-aligned nation of Malaysia was a direct contact with the Dombass leadership in Donetsk and arranged the transfer of bodies and the two black boxes of flight MH-17, and the investigation leadership of the Dutch government who doesn't recognize the rebel movement, so they talk about the MH-17 crash-site investigation with the junta in Kiev, a distance of 800 km. The Dutch and Australian investigators use the OSCE to mediate with the Donetsk rebel leadership. The UN Security Council resolution demanded access to the site and the hostilities to stop through a cease-fire. That has not happened and it was clear the Ukrainian Army and oligarch militias pushed their attack forward towards Donetsk, making access quite difficult.

by Oui on Thu Aug 7th, 2014 at 01:54:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Dutch, Australian Experts Reach MH17 Debris Field In Ukraine on July 31, 2014 -
plus link OSCE SMM: almost two weeks to the hour ....

The OSCE observers weren't impressed by the 14 days it took for this delegation to arrive!

by Oui on Thu Aug 7th, 2014 at 02:13:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do we have corroborating evidence that this actually occurred, or are we talking about hearsay from unnamed sources?

Having read what the OSCE wrote about something I knew the details of, my conclusion was that the OSCE operates in transparently bad faith and consistently peddles wingnut partisan propaganda as though it were fact. So I see no reason to trust anything coming out of that organization that doesn't come with forensic evidence.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Aug 8th, 2014 at 11:26:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure what (or whom) you exactly address, but as you're replying to my post:

In the posts above, debate engaged around the "genuine free access to the crash site in the first days". Although I have no intimate knowledge on access to the crash site, I know of reports on the crash site.

So what I posted is the witness account of freelance correspondent (and former colleague) Olaf Koens, who belonged to the group of journalists who were early present at the crash site. The embedded tweet was sent when he was in a vehicle, together with OSCE observers, under separatists' supervision. So it's not hearsay coming from the OSCE.

I saw similar reports by other journalists that the OSCE were not given free access at the site, but I don't have these accounts at hand presently.

by Bjinse on Sat Aug 9th, 2014 at 06:07:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Having read what the OSCE wrote about something I knew the details of ...

Links or sources?

Please read the guidelines - afew.

by Oui on Sat Aug 9th, 2014 at 08:10:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nice try, but no cigar.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Aug 9th, 2014 at 08:24:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course I don't know precisely what Jake is referring to, but here is my main reason for distrusting OSCE:

The Exile - Who Killed The OSCE?

MOSCOW-When Russia told the OSCE that their election monitoring mission would be severely limited last month, it seemed as though Putin had fired an authoritarian shot out of the blue, baring his inner Stalinist once and for all. The West reacted as if the OSCE was the crucifix of democracy, and Putin's rejection of that crucifix was evil rejecting good.

Well, that's one way of looking at it. Another way is that the recent Russia-OSCE door-slamming episode is the inevitable outcome of years of cynical Western manipulation of an organization that once held enormous promise and impeccable credentials, but is now with good reason considered a propaganda tool for the West.

If that last sentence sounds like the paranoid rant of a Putin-era silovik revanchist, then think again. It's the view held by none other than the man who headed the OSCE's 1996 election mission in Russia, Michael Meadowcroft.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Sat Aug 9th, 2014 at 05:04:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
'In het spoor van de dood doen de details pijn'

Correspondent OLAF KOENS arrived Friday evening at the site where the day before the Boeing 777 crashed. At the crash-site he spend the night with the rescue workers, between the wreckage and bodies.

[Links added are mine - Oui]

It's clear the first responders of the local community were present and marked the location of body parts/bodies of the victims. No reason for Obama, Abbott, Kerry and Rutte to demonize the Russian-speaking population of East-Ukraine.

 « click for more info
Members of the Ukrainian State Emergency Service search for bodies in a field near the crash site of the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 near the village of Hrabove (Grabove), in Donetsk region on July 26, 2014. (Photo by Bulent Kilic / AFP)

Within the goals and responsibilities of the OSCE SMM Mission in the Ukraine, these people do perform in a professional manner. The OSCE has been in the Ukraine on a number of separate missions. The OSCE mediated with the anti-Kiev rebels because, contrary to Malaysian authorities, the Dutch and Australian officials handled their affairs through Kiev. That didn't go well, so FM Timmermans and his Australian counterpart Bishop had to urge expediency with a renewed visit to Kiev. The delay of the large group of experts and forensic experts led to irritation by the OSCE observers who had seen dozens of reporters and other visitors come to the crash-site.

The Donetsk region is a war zone and the international press were quickly present near the crash-site. Of course, persons not related to the official group of investigators would be kept abay as far as is possible under these circumstances where the region was under attack from Ukrainian army units and mercenaries hired by regional oligarchs. It's more than a complicated situation/mess. The usual fog of war and propaganda, from all sides.

The Dutch press/reports/media have been biased anti-Russian from the moment the Malaysian flight MH-17 crashed in rebel-held territory near Donetsk.

by Oui on Sat Aug 9th, 2014 at 08:02:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"You need to produce evidence that international observers were offered genuine free access to the crash site in the first days."

I don't need to offer you anything whatsoever. As you know, I live in The Netherlands and have followed Dutch and international news 24/7. I'm right on top of the facts and able to scrutinize westerm propaganda outlets such as BBC reporting.  

If you read any of my diaries, the bs drips off the face of Mark Rutte, his statements and his fellow ministers Ivo Opstelten and Frans Timmermans. They are toeing the Washington propaganda line ever since the MH-17 disaster. It really binds the Union. Is Timmermans still a possible compromise candidate for the EU? It seems there is a stalemate - all about Ukraine - between two candidates Poland's Sikorski and Italy's Mogherini.

by Oui on Thu Aug 7th, 2014 at 11:15:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I live in The Netherlands and have followed Dutch and international news 24/7. I'm right on top of the factswestern propaganda
You're welcome.
I'm right on top of the facts and able to scrutinize westerm propaganda outlets such as BBC reporting.
Whereas the rest of us are at under western propaganda and unable to see the facts.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2014 at 11:45:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That kind of arrogant response doesn't wash on ET. "I live in the Netherlands" doesn't give you uncontestable expert knowledge of anything beyond what it feels like to be you in the Netherlands.

European Tribune - ET Editorial Guidelines

All views published on this site, without exception, are subject to debate, challenge and criticism by any user (as long as the proprieties of civility and ETiquette are observed). No "authority" - whether secular or religious, contemporary or historical - is considered above critical scrutiny.

Please read those guidelines, they were not posted for nothing.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2014 at 11:54:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
expert knowledge of anything beyond what it feels like to be you in the Netherlands
In other words, oui's qualia.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2014 at 11:58:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
While I haven't found plundered or pilfered, the CBC article struck me as a couple of accusations of mistreating the dead.

A [US] spokeswoman said the site was not secured and noted multiple reports about bodies being removed, debris taken away, and potential evidence tampered with.

"This is unacceptable and an affront to all those who lost loved ones and to the dignity the victims deserve," spokeswoman Jen Psaki said in a statement.

On Saturday, in the village of Hrabove, one body was seen still strapped into an airline seat, with bare toes peeking out under long jeans. Another body was flung face-up into a field of blue flowers.

Treatment of the victims' remains, left in the open air under a hot summer sun punctuated by bursts of rain, provoked outrage and distress.

"The news we got today of the bodies being dragged around, of the site not being treated properly, has really created a shock in the Netherlands," Dutch Foreign Minister Frans Timmermans told the Ukrainian president in Kyiv. "People are angry, are furious at what they hear."

Note that the accusation of how the dead are mistreated differ in a bit of damned if you do, damned if you don't pattern.

These two quotes I purposely selected to be about mistreating the dead. If you check the article, both Timmermans and Psaki then goes on to demand access for monitors as the demand for action. Exactly how it would solve the problem of remains is unclear, but it is skillful PR in that the emotional charge of the accusation of mistreatment of the dead is transfered to the not as emotionally involving demand of access for monitors.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Aug 8th, 2014 at 06:40:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Obama fulmigates
With Grease Lightining, I presume?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2014 at 11:56:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Stranded in a war zone we don't understand

(ABC The Drum) July 29, 2014 - With Australian policemen stranded in a war zone with the permission of Ukraine's president, but without the authorisation of their parliament, it appears we've stumbled into a conflict we don't care to understand, writes Matthew Dal Santo.

Having until recently seen the conflict as touching few of its direct interests, Australia is now - for the most tragic of reasons - involved in Ukraine. Yesterday, a convoy carrying Australian Federal Police officers and their Dutch colleagues turned back after driving into live fire when Ukraine resumed its offensive near the crash site.

The Ukrainians say establishing control of the area is vital to prevent the rebels destroying evidence; the separatists throw the same accusation back at Kiev - that it wants to take the area to eliminate evidence that might incriminate it. Either way, turning the crash site in a battleground won't help investigators.

For Kiev, in fact, the offensive's main purpose seems to be to cut the rebels' stronghold in Donetsk from the Russian border. Yet depending on your interpretation of Australian-sponsored Security Council Resolution 2166, it's now Ukraine, rather than the rebels, that stands in breach of "that all military activities, including by armed groups, be immediately ceased in the immediate area surrounding the crash site to allow for security and safety of the international investigation".

ABC correspondent, Stephen McDonell, reports on attempts by Australian and Dutch police to reach the MH 17 crash site. [July 28, 2014]

Last week, Foreign Minister Julie Bishop failed in her quest to win the backing of Ukraine's parliament for the AFP deployment. As she put it, "they had a crisis within their parliament. Their prime minister resigned and there were a lot of internal domestic issues that had to be addressed and then their parliament went into recess."

Australian ABC original source of video report from Donetsk

Some info was posted earlier in my diary - Dutch News Uses Anne [Neocon] Applebaum as Putin Expert.  [July 21/22, 2014]

by Oui on Sun Aug 10th, 2014 at 03:21:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is Rasmussen Europe's broker for military affairs in Kiev? Neocons have no shame.

AndersFogh Rasmussen @AndersFoghR    *   44 min    
Looking forward to meetings w/ President Poroshenko, PM Yatseniuk, MFA @PavloKlimkin & Speaker Turchynov. #Ukraine

AndersFogh Rasmussen @AndersFoghR     *   58 min    
Just landed in Kiev. I'm here to offer #NATO's political support to #Ukraine and President Poroshenko

 AndersFogh Rasmussen @AndersFoghR     *   4 aug.    
#NATOSummitUK will be a turning-point, boosting our readiness in a changed world so that we can respond quickly to old or new challenges

 AndersFogh Rasmussen @AndersFoghR     *   4 aug.    
As we remember devastation of #WW1 today, our peace & security are once again being tested by #Russia's aggression against #Ukraine

 AndersFogh Rasmussen @AndersFoghR     *   4 aug.    
.@David_Cameron & I just met w/ @PMBreedlove who briefed us on his assessment of recent events in #Ukraine http://ow.ly/zVPP7

NATO Secretary General, British Prime Minister, SACEUR discuss Ukraine crisis

NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen discussed the impact of the Ukraine crisis on the Alliance's collective security with British Prime Minister David Cameron and Supreme Allied Commander Europe (SACEUR) Gn. Philip Breedlove at Allied Command Operations headquarters in Mons, Belgium on Monday (4 August 2014).

The Secretary General said that NATO "stands determined" to defend all Allies against any threat. "We are at a crucial point in history: as we remember the devastation of World War One, our peace and security are once again being tested, now by Russia's aggression against Ukraine. And the criminal downing of Flight MH17 has made clear that a conflict in one part of Europe can have tragic consequences around the world," he said.  

by Oui on Thu Aug 7th, 2014 at 06:43:18 AM EST
I'm SHOCKED, I tell you, SHOCKED about NATO.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 7th, 2014 at 07:02:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just landed in Kiev. I'm here to offer #NATO's political support to #Ukraine

My emphasis

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Thu Aug 7th, 2014 at 08:53:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
NATO, Ukraine discuss alliance support for Kiev's defence capacity

KIEV (Reuters) - NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen and Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseny Yatseniuk [didn't Yats resign? - Oui] on Thursday discussed possible Western alliance support for Ukraine's defence capacity, a Kiev government statement said.

The two men discussed ways in which a proposed NATO trust fund could be used to support Kiev's defence ability in areas including command and control, communications and cyberdefence, it said.

Provision of lethal aid to Ukraine by the U.S.-led military alliance did not appear to have been discussed.

U.S.NavyEuropeAfrica @NAVEUR_NAVAF

#USSVellaGulf enters #BlackSea to
promote peace and stability in the region.
http://bit.ly/1AUJRhU  #PresenceMatters

RT: US missile cruiser enters Black Sea again 'to promote peace'  

by Oui on Thu Aug 7th, 2014 at 10:23:57 AM EST
Can't say I have been keeping track of things. So some basci questions.

Is the recovery and investigation the same mission or two different? Are there investigators there now and have they reported anything?

If they have not reported, do we know that MH-17 was shot down and did not crash? It is not like Malaysia airlines never lost a plane before. I am not advancing this as theory, I would just like know what is being known with a decent degree of certainty at this time.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Aug 8th, 2014 at 06:50:47 PM EST
Two separate investigations. Doing the independent, international investigation into the cause of the crash is the Dutch Safety Board - OvV.

Last 'official' press statement is from July 28, 2014. However on the date of my diary it was made known the first preliminary report of Dutch Safety Board was delayed for a number of weeks.

Permission granted to OSCE observers to move debris in search of bodies of victims. The Dutch forensic team didn't arrive until a few days later, the 31st of July ...

Gegevens Flight Data Recorder MH17 uitgelezen

July 24, 2014: Aansluitend op het persbericht van gisteren, heeft het internationaal onderzoeksteam onder leiding van de Onderzoeksraad voor Veiligheid verder gewerkt aan de Cockpit Voice Recorder en de Flight Data Recorder. Dit vindt plaats op het hoofdkwartier van de Britse Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) te Farnborough in het Verenigd Koninkrijk.

Toestemming Onderzoeksraad voor verplaatsing wrakstukken

July 24, 2014: De Onderzoeksraad voor Veiligheid heeft ingestemd met het verplaatsen van wrakstukken op de crashsite nadat een verzoek hierover de Raad via de Organisatie voor Veiligheid en Samenwerking in Europa (OVSE) heeft bereikt. Dit om de op de rampplek nog aanwezige slachtoffers te kunnen bergen. Dit zal gedaan worden door lokale partijen.

by Oui on Fri Aug 8th, 2014 at 11:16:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Excellent serie of photo's from Recovery Mission MH-17 at work in Ukraine - 100 foto's en video's.

Ilona de Ruyter

Woordvoerder voor Pieter-Jaap Aalbersberg, hoofd van repatrieringsmissie #MH17. Verder werkzaam als persvoorlichter ministerie van Buitenlandse Zaken.

Spokesperson for Pieter-Jaap Aalbersberg, head of Recovery Mission MH-17. Also a press officer for the Dutch Ministry of Foreign Affairs [Frans Timmermans].  

by Oui on Fri Aug 8th, 2014 at 11:32:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How convenient, excellent timing per Sunday July 20, 2014 ...

EuroMaidan PR: Justice4MH17 - Putin2TheHague

#JusticeForMH17 #Putin2TheHague
happening now at the #Russia Embassy in
# London @londonmaidan pic.twitter.com/2ZwDyljJxo
@bobpadron | EMPR

 « click for more info
#United For Ukraine

Senior U.S. Official Ridiculed for 'United For Ukraine' Tweet

A senior White house official has caused outrage after she posted a 'selfie' on Twitter holding a sign that read: '#United­For­Ukraine @State­Dept­Spox.' US State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki was accused of trivialising the crisis in Ukraine when she tweeted: 'To echo Barack Obama today - proud to stand #UnitedForUkraine. World should stand together with one voice.'

The photograph showed her, in a yellow suit, giving a thumbs up and holding the sign. But her attempt at 'solving the crisis with selfies' was widely mocked online.

'Presenting The Latest US Strategy to Counter "Russian Aggression,"' one blogger posted on zerohedge.com. '#Selfies!' And one wondered: 'How flippin' sad has the USA become?'

Dear @statedeptspox, I'll make this simple for you: hashtags do not equal sound foreign policy

by Oui on Sat Aug 9th, 2014 at 10:46:55 AM EST
Malaysia MH-17 diasaster: Where the Recovery Mission searched

The Dutch led Repatriation Mission [Recovery Mission MH-17] was divided over six days. In a total period of twenty hours the search took place in the disaster area. During that time  an important area with many remains and wreckage was carefully searched.

 « click for more info
Total coloured area was searched by Ukrainians according to their report. {nos.nl}

In a press release about the work done, is mentioned that in those sections where the search did not take place, in all probability no remains are to be found.

Map showing the full disaster area and the sections searched  [image .gif]


Phase 7: (Stavaza postponement)

Total coloured area was searched by
Ukrainians according to their report.

[yellow dots] Impacts on surface
[impact] Crash Site
[green] Searched by Int. team
[brown] Entry refused
[orange] Unsafe area

by Oui on Sat Aug 9th, 2014 at 03:38:33 PM EST
Not giving straight answers only makes the matter murkier ...

Malaysia wants the 'missing' Ukrainian ATC tapes

KUALA LUMPUR (New Straits Times) Aug. 8, 2014 - Ukraine has denied that its State Security Service (SBU) had seized the air-to-ground transmission tapes between its air traffic controllers and Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 on the day the jetliner was shot down.

Its ambassador to Malaysia Ihor Humennyi, in an exclusive interview with the New Straits Times, said that reports alleging that the SBU had seized the recordings had not been independently verified or confirmed by Kiev.

"There is no proof or any evidence that the tapes were confiscated by the SBU. I only read this in the newspapers."

Interview Ukrainian Ambassador Ihor Humennyi on MH17: Status of Ukrainian tapes still in question.

Almost immediately after the shootdown, several news agencies, including the British Broadcasting Corporation, carried reports saying that Ukraine's SBU security service had confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner.

If indeed the SBU had not seized the tapes, then where are the air-to-ground communications tapes between MH17 and the ATC? When asked this, Humennyi said he did not have the answers.

Asked if the tapes had been handed over to the investigators, Humennyi said: "We don't have any information that it had not been given to the investigation team or that it was not received by the (team of international) investigators."

Humennyi said that if a formal request was made by Malaysia or the international investigation team, Ukraine would extend its cooperation. At one point, Humennyi seemed to question the significance of the ATC tapes, saying that "it is just the same as the flight data and cockpit voice recorders".

Address of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine on Tragic Death of People as a Result of a Terrorist Act over the Territory of Ukraine - July 22, 2014

by Oui on Sun Aug 10th, 2014 at 01:50:15 AM EST
  1. That is indeed evasive. Presumably a formal request will be made for the tapes, and we'll see how Ukraine responds.

  2. Oui:
    several news agencies, including the British Broadcasting Corporation, carried reports saying that Ukraine's SBU security service had confiscated recordings

It's noteworthy how, once again, the BBC is used to lend authority to what was no more than an Interfax wire based on single-anonymous-source hearsay, cited on a fast-moving timeline and uninvestigated by the BBC.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Aug 10th, 2014 at 02:38:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I just recently understood what appears to be at the origin of the viral stories about Ukranian ATC asking MH17 to change course.

Pilots of Air India plane heard Ukraine ATC asking Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 to change direction | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis

Aerotelegraph.com reports that just a few minutes before the crash, both flights received permission for deviating from the planned route.

It's plain, despite the absurd headline which says the exact opposite, that the change of course of both planes, MH and Air India, was initiated by the pilots themselves, to save time and fuel (the cited source, an article in German on Aerotelegraph.com, makes that clear.

Unless the Air India pilots are part of a conspiracy, Occam's Razor suggests that if we haven't heard anything about the ATC recordings, it's because there's absolutely nothing of any interest on them.

This tells us nothing about responsibilities for the destruction of MH17, but eliminates a loose thread, surely?

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Aug 12th, 2014 at 03:59:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A loose thread would be easily eliminated by showing how uninteresting the ATC recordings are. ATC tapes are usually soon available usually, interesting or not.

The Aerotelegraph article talks only about the last minute course change. Why the whole MH17 trajectory over Ukraine was significantly different - still unclear. Thunderstorms were an original viral suggestion - but soon that subject disappeared (along with the first hour rebel tapes and reports of smuggling BUK back to Russia).

Talking about direct routing right above that zone is pretty ironic. There is other confusion (beside the ATC permission or order) in the Air India report:

Since the two flights were flying very close to each other, the Ukrainian Air Traffic controller asked the MH17 pilot to contact the Air India pilot.
So was the "permission" about direct routing or avoiding midair collision? Or both? The original material would be just interesting, as media reporting has too many inaccuracy factors here for eliminating loose threads.

AND THEN THERE IS this official statement of Ukraine's Security Service:

Terrorists and militants planned cynical terrorist attack at Aeroflot civil aircraft

During the investigation of Malaysia Airlines Boeing-777 downing the law enforcement and intelligence bodies established that terrorists and militants have cynically planned the terrorist attack at Aeroflot civil aircraft, AFL-2074 Moscow-Larnaca, which was flying over the territory of Ukraine at that moment. Hereof informed the Head of the Security Service of Ukraine Mr. Valentyn Nalyvaichenko during the briefing today.

He underlined - the crime was planned as a ground for bringing of Russian troops into Ukraine, that is - CASUS BELLI for the Russian military invasion.

According to the official Ukrainian data, June 17, 2014, at the mentioned time two regular international flights were operating over the territory of Ukraine following the filed requests for aircraft clearance - MAS17 plane of the Malaysia Airlines and AFL-2074 one of Aeroflot...

Please talk about Occam's Razor while I am dumbfolded. And give more clarity, how many airplanes were around there.
by das monde on Wed Aug 13th, 2014 at 01:58:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"So was the "permission" about direct routing or avoiding midair collision? Or both?"

You're reading too much into the article. As far as I know, there is nothing unusual about one plane following another on the same route. If the German article is accurate, it's perfectly clear that BOTH planes asked for a route change, which was OK'd by ATC. Then the ATC people lost contact with the Malaysians (who had presumably crashed), and asked the Indians to contact them.

None of this bears any relation to the new material that you introduce, which is... interesting, and about as plausible as anything else I've seen.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Wed Aug 13th, 2014 at 11:13:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As far as I know, there is nothing unusual about one plane following another on the same route.
I believe 2 or 3 km is the lowest distance by which a plane can trail another, but they do trail each other.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 13th, 2014 at 11:45:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
25 km in this case. 90 seconds flying time; i.e. it could just as well have been the Indian plane shot down (or the Russian plane which crossed their paths, if it exists). Unless MH17 was specifically targeted.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Wed Aug 13th, 2014 at 12:17:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
10-15 min of flight time is the normal separation for the same routes. 90 s must be too close for ATC to allow uncoordinated route optimization (especially more convergent in this case). Very likely, the planes were on different altitudes - but then the article wrote too much.

At 25km of straight separation I would even expect visual contact.

by das monde on Wed Aug 13th, 2014 at 12:34:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
about as plausible as anything else I've seen
I see the SBU scenario more fetched. Mixing up villages of the same name - can you invent this?! More crucially - how reliable was the AFL-2074 route? And what about the first hour rebel conversation tapes - they do not fit the story in neither case (fabricated or genuine).
by das monde on Wed Aug 13th, 2014 at 12:55:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Reply to Marie2 @BooMan:

I listened to the presentation of the Recovery Mission MH-17 leaders before the parliamentary commission. I was astonished how poorly informed nearly all members of Dutch parliament were. Some questions were illiterate in stupidity and there was no focus on essentials during the brief session that was televised.

Many thanks to all involved and the preparations made before traveling to Kharkiv. Indeed, much of the search had been completed by locals under proper leadership of a medical team and rescuers belonging to first responders of fire stations. As I have written before, some 800 volunteers were in place. The Dutch had little or no knowledge before arriving in Kharkiv. It took the team 14 days before arrival at the MH-17 wreckage. They stayed a mere 6 days and spend just 20 hours on the search. The advancing Ukrainian army [and mercenaries paid by oligarchs] made travel to Grabove quite difficult until the Dutch called it quits.

Special appreciation for the OSCE SMM mission in the district of Donetsk! They did the mediation with the separatists of Donetsk.

There was some fingerpointing towards the Kiev junta for not following through on the agreement signed with FM Timmermans and Julie Jacobs of Australia. No serious repurcussions except an open question how many weeks of delay this would cause before the team can return to the crash site! No one in the chamber referred to the UN Security Council resolution calling for all parties involved to cease hostilities in the region of the MH-17 crash site!

Only a single member, Harry van Bommel (SP), had sufficient knowledge of the dossier to ask the pertinent questions. Well done!  

The first mission is the recovery and identification team which was heard today by the commission.

The second mission is by the Dutch Safety Board (OvV) to determine the cause of the crash. They were in Kharkiv but did NOT visit the site, therefore no evidence gathering!

The third investigation is an international criminal investigation led by prosecutors under coordination of Eurojust, the European version of the Justice Department. This team will attempt to determine a person, persons, group or country responsible for downing Malasia flight MH-17.

One of the most renowned lawyers Geert-Jan Knoops, already says it will be impossible to determine in court who is responsible. Evidence lying out in the field for weeks is by definition contaminated in the court of law. Knoops was involved in the case of the Lockerbie crash tried in Scottish Court in Zeist, The Netherlands. Jan. 31, 2001: Lockerbie Verdict

by Oui on Mon Aug 11th, 2014 at 01:06:51 PM EST
Sorry, but "mad man" Rutte has changed his tune, doesn't talk about 'criminal' Putin much. Dutch PM Mark Rutte, loved by all neocon posturing nations around the globe since the MH-17 crash, has a new slogan to prove his determination:

"We are stopping now, but are not stopping."

No mention of the agreement signed in Kiev by Timmermans and Bishop with Podhorenko and Yats. Nothing about the unanimous U.N. Security Council Resolution to expediate the MH-17 crash investigation.

 From today's press release, Prime Minister Mark Rutte:

    "Graag wil ik hier mijn dank uitspreken aan de Australische experts, die samen met Nederlandse en Maleisische collega's en de OVSE [OSCE SMM Mission report Aug. 6 - last day international recovery mission ... silence] zulk zwaar werk in zulke moeilijke omstandigheden hebben verricht. Hetzelfde geldt voor de Australiërs die ook vandaag weer in Hilversum aan het werk zijn om de slachtoffers te identificeren.

    Ik zei het eerder: we stoppen nu, maar we stoppen niet. Premier Abbott en ik delen de ambitie om terug te keren naar de crashsite, zodra er weer zicht is dat we onder veilige omstandigheden daar dit belangrijke werk kunnen doen."

Eindhoven: Tony Abbott in tribute to Australian defence and police personnel in search of MH-17 victims

by Oui on Mon Aug 11th, 2014 at 04:04:09 PM EST
by Oui on Tue Aug 12th, 2014 at 04:07:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Today I've noticed a drastic change in the rhetoric of Dutch PM Rutte during his conversation and press statement on the visit of Australia's PM Abbott. Not a single word over Russia's Putin, nor any aggression to the culprits who are responsible for taking down Malaysian passenger jet flight MH-17, now 25 days ago. Australia/Dutch joint mission at the crash site was aborted, the experts have returned home.

Now, with president Obama at Martha's Vineyard, he consents to a humanitarian mission into East Ukraine and the major cities of Luhansk and Donetsk. Yet today harsh criticism was heard from both the junta in Kiev and outgoing NATO SG Rasmussen. Kiev urged the one million citizens of Luhansk to leave the city! Rasmussin threatened Russia not to invade Ukraine under the umbrella of humanitarian  aid in coordination with the International Red Cross.

What's the deal here, do these gentlemen share a secret we don't know about ... yet?

Amazing coordination between the U.S., Australia, The Netherlands and Russia. The breaking news is lagging in Kiev and at NATO HQ in Brussels. What does Cameron have to say ...

Please note: it was President Obama who called Ukrainian counterpart Poroshenko to deliver the message the humanitarian mission under auspices of the IRC should proceed. Not VP Biden or John Kerry or Vicky Nuland delivering a covert message to Ambassador Pyatt. Just saying.

by Oui on Mon Aug 11th, 2014 at 04:55:28 PM EST
Russia to send humanitarian convoy into Ukraine in spite of warnings
| Alec Luhn in Moscow | Monday 11 August 2014 18.25 BST |

(The Guardian) -  Russia is sending a humanitarian convoy into Ukraine in cooperation with Red Cross, the Kremlin has announced. It was not immediately clear if Russia had reached agreement with Ukraine on the issue, or if it had decided to move unilaterally as Ukrainian government forces have been closing in on a few remaining rebel strongholds.

[Source via Kyiv Post]

Yep, the president's PR service had to do a lot of cut and paste to change the sequence, putting Ukraine first as taking the initiative. LOL

Ukraine, Red Cross to lead humanitarian effort to Luhansk Oblast (UPDATE)
| By Christopher J. Miller | Aug. 11, 2014, 9:28 p.m. |

DONETSK, Ukraine (Kyiv Post) - Ukraine and the International Committee of the Red Cross will lead a humanitarian convoy supported by the European Union, the United States and Russia to the country's conflict-torn eastern city of Luhansk, according to Ukraine's Foreign Ministry.

"Due to the complex humanitarian and social situation in the Donbas, Ukraine President Poroshenko took the initiative to send to Luhansk Oblast international humanitarian aid missions," the ministry said in an official statement on Aug. 11 [20:07 pm]. "In addition to goods, prepared by the Ukrainian side, the mission will also include an international component and, in particular, humanitarian assistance provided by the International Committee of the Red Cross, the United States, the EU and Russia."

"Logistical support of the international humanitarian relief mission, including its delivery and distribution, will be provided by the International Committee of the Red Cross and Ukraine," the Ministry added.

ICRC statement by Laurent Corbaz, head of operations for Europe and Central Asia.

    "The document also stipulates, among other matters, that prior to beginning of the operation, the ICRC should receive without undue delay from the authorities of the Russian Federation all necessary details concerning the aid, including the volume and type of items, and requirements for transport and storage. All parties must also guarantee the security of ICRC staff and vehicles, for the entire duration of the operation, in view of the fact that the organization does not accept armed escorts."
by Oui on Mon Aug 11th, 2014 at 07:02:37 PM EST
Air-to-air missile Vympel R-60 NATO code AA-8 Aphid

Guidance: Infra-red (heat-seeking)
Warhead: 9.4 kg (20.8lb) annular blast-fragmentation

Spec sheet courtesy Kancho's Paper Wings.

AIM-9 Sidewinder Short Range Air-to-Air Missile

The AIM-9 Sidewinder is a supersonic, heat-seeking, air-to-air missile. It has a high-explosive warhead and a passive infrared guidance system. It is used by a variety of Western fixed-wing combat aircraft and helicopters, and has been adopted for surface-to-air use as the Chaparral missile.

Wikipedia: Sidewinder AIM-9L ('Lima')

I'm certain from the fragmentation pattern evidenced in the parts of the fusilage on the wreckage, a conclusion can be drawn which type of warhead caused the Boeing-777 flight MH-17 crash. The Buk missile with proximity fuze is quite different from an air-to-air heat-seeking R-60 warhead. The Sidewinder targets an engine, destroys it causing immediate DANGER alarms in the cockpit. An engine lost and decompression of the cabine and cockpit may still not be fatal. The Buk missile was used against Antonov transport planes [AN-12 turboprop] and Su fighter jets of the Ukrainina Air Force.  At a much lower altitude 21,300 feet (pressurized Antonov), eight men managed to jump to safety by parachute, two died in crash.  

FAS: Chapter 13 - Warheads Fragment Flight. The fragments of a warhead travel outward in a nearly perpendicular direction to the surface of its casing (for a cylindrical warhead there is a 7- to 10-degree lead angle). Figure 13-7 portrays a typical fragmentation pattern. The tail and nose spray are frequently referred to separately as the "forty-five degree cone," which is an area of less dense fragmentation. If this payload were to be detonated in flight, the dense side spray would have a slight forward thrust with an increased velocity equal to missile flight velocity.

The angle of the side spray in figure 13-7 would be defined as the beam width of this fragmenting payload. Fragment beam width is defined as the angle covered by a useful density of fragments. Beam width is a function of warhead shape and the placement of the detonator(s) in the explosive charge.

The latest air target warheads are designed to emit a nar-row beam of high-velocity fragments. This type of warhead, called an annular Blast Fragmentation warhead (ABF) [U.S. patent 3490374 A], has a fragmentation pattern that propagates out in the form of a ring with tremendous destructive potential. A newer type of fragmentation warhead is the Selectively Aimable Warhead (SAW). This "smart" warhead is designed to aim its fragment density at the target. This is accomplished by the fuzing system telling the warhead where the target is located and causing it to detonate so as to maximize the energy density on the target. Fragment Material. The damage produced by a fragment with a certain velocity depends upon the mass of the fragment. It is therefore necessary to know the approximate distribution of mass for the fragments large enough to cause damage. Mass dis-tribution of payload fragments is determined by means of a static detonation in which the fragments are caught in sand pits. In naturally fragmenting payloads where no attempt to control frag-ment size and number is made, fragmentation may randomly vary from fine, dust-like particles to large pieces. Modern warheads use scored casings and precut fragments to ensure a large damage volume. See figures 13-8 and 13-9.

by Oui on Tue Aug 12th, 2014 at 05:08:06 AM EST
Apparently being a non-aligned nation, Malaysia has succeeded to talk directly to the Donbass of Donetsk rebel leadership and make arrangements to handover the two black boxes and the retrieval of bodies and remains from the MA-17 crash site in Grabove. The media in Malaysia publish in English and Malay, so I tried to brush up on my knowledge of Indonesian (tiny). This publication stood out in the New Straits Times of Wednesday August 6, in paper version only AFAIK.

I have spend some time digging into the Malaysian writings about the plane crash as the nation is severely effected, just as The Netherlands and Australia.

Polis Diraja Malaysia (Royal Malaysia Police)
Kementerian Dalam Negeri (KDN)

I was quite happy, not really surprised, to find this interesting article. The three Malaysian experts are NOT low key persons!  

MH17: Reports submitted to Dutch, IGP heads to Netherlands on July 26, 2014 in Malaysia

KIEV - The Malaysian team investigating the crash of the Malaysia Airlines (MAS) Flight MH17 aircraft at a site in Torez, eastern Ukraine has submitted its reports to the Dutch authorities heading the investigation. MAS director of engineering and maintenance Azhari Mohd Dahlan, 53, who is one of three Malaysians conducting investigations into the crash in the Donetsk region, told Bernama: "We are relieved."

 « click for more info
Malaysian air crash investigators at the crash site of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17, near the village of Hrabove (Grabovo), Donetsk region

"All the investigation reports have been given to the Dutch as they head the investigation," he said upon arrival in Kiev, about 800km from Torez by train Friday morning.

He, however, did not want to comment further on the four-day investigation carried out by him and the other two Malaysian investigators comprising Department of Civil Aviation (DCA) Senior Assistant Director Captain Philip Joseph Selvaraju, 42, a former pilot, and DCA Senior Assistant Director Mohd Naemy Fahmy Mustapa, 38.

Azhari and the 133 Malaysian special team members, led by Khairil Hilmi Mokhtar, who is also National Security Council (MKN) Cross Border Management Division principal assistant secretary, were scheduled to depart for Kuala Lumpur Friday noon (local time).

Recording not tampered with

Upon arrival at KLIA from Amsterdam today, Transport Minister Datuk Seri Liow Tiong Lai said a hearing process from the cockpit and flight path recorder had already been conducted by the International investigation team on the two black boxes retrieved from the plane.

He said there had not been any evident tampering with the recording and that it is now up to the investigation team to document the retrieved data.

    "We did not find any sign that the recording had been tampered with. We could hear the content."
by Oui on Tue Aug 12th, 2014 at 09:25:18 AM EST
make arrangements to handover the two black boxes

The pro-Russians had these all along?

No, wait, 22 July:

MH17 black boxes arrive in Farnborough for analysis | World news | theguardian.com

The black boxes from flight MH17 have made a long journey from eastern Ukraine to a building set in woodland just outside Farnborough airport in Hampshire, the headquarters of the UK's Air Accident Investigation Branch (AAIB).

There, experts from the AAIB - considered one of the world's pre-eminent specialists in air crash analysis - will download the data from the two instruments, the voice data recorder and the flight data recorder. This process will not take long.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Aug 12th, 2014 at 11:30:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Slight discrepancy covered in my diary - Who Mislaid the Malaysian MH-17 Black Boxes? [July 22, 2014].
by Oui on Tue Aug 12th, 2014 at 02:11:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So let it be clear that the black boxes were handed over to the Malaysians by the pro-Russians, the Malaysians handed them immediately over to the Dutch, who handed them immediately over to the British Air Accident Branch (and an international team including a Malaysian representative) near Farnborough (22 July).
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Aug 12th, 2014 at 03:25:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Shocking Analysis of the 'Shooting Down' of Malaysian MH17 by Peter Haisenko, pilot Condor DC-10

Entry and exit impact holes of projectiles in the cockpit area

You can download this photo as a PDF in good resolution. This is necessary, because that will allow you understand what I am describing here. The facts speak clear and loud and are beyond the realm of speculation: The cockpit shows traces of shelling! You can see the entry and exit holes. The edge of a portion of the holes is bent inwards. These are the smaller holes, round and clean, showing the entry points most likeley that of a 30 millimeter caliber projectile. The edge of the other, the larger and slightly frayed exit holes showing shreds of metal pointing produced by the same caliber projectiles. Moreover, it is evident that at these exit holes of the outer layer of the double aluminum reinforced structure are shredded or bent - outwardly! Furthermore, minor cuts can be seen, all bent outward, which indicate that shrapnel had forcefull exited through the outer skin from the inside of the cockpit. The open rivets are are also bent outward.

 « click for high resolution photo
Cockpit window details

Tank destroying mix of ammunition

If we now consider the armament of a typical SU 25 we learn this: It is equipped with a double-barreled 30-mm gun, type GSh-302 / AO-17A, equipped with: a 250 round magazine of anti-tank incendiary shells and splinter-explosive shells (dum-dum), arranged in alternating order.

Bullet riddled cockpit and grazed wing

The largely intact fragments of the rear sections broke in mid air at the weaker points of contstruction most likely under extreme internal air pressure. The images of the widely scattered field of debris and the brutally damaged segment of cockpit fit like hand in glove. Furthermore, a wing segment shows traces of a grazing shot, which in direct extension leads to the cockpit.

Maximum flight altitude Su-25

The handbook "Flugzeuge der Welt" by W. Green (1984), a standard work which essentially quotes the facts of the military "Janes Manuals" (also used to be NATO reference), already 1984 determined the maximum flight altitude of SU 25 (SU 25 MK, export version) with 10,670 meters (page 208 f.). The performance of the SU 25 has been upgraded since that time.

Here a link to the statement of a Canadian OSCE-participant, who observed evidence on parts of the wreckage, that the aircraft had been hit by rounds of heavy machine-gun-fire.

    CBC News interviews an OSCE investigator who monitors the crash site of flight MH17. In that interview he states, that till now there was no evidence that a missile had hit the plane. Instead the OSCE had recovered three pieces of fuselage which had been "popmarked" by heavy machine gun fire. This statement is made at timemark 6:10 minutes. [Publication on July 31, 2014]


Police rapport in dossier with satellite images scattered debris field where large sections were located
Presentation Police Commissioner Bouman - satellite photo's position major sections of Boeing 777 fuselage [pdf - quite interesting]

by Oui on Wed Aug 13th, 2014 at 03:03:23 AM EST
Beacause of low-altitude operation, very vulnerable for MANPADS as was seen in the Afghan War. That's the reason the Soviets designed the Su-39, a two seater for more versatile missions on the battlefield.

Su-25 is designed for low-altitude close air aupport to suppress enemy armor and anti-aircraft weapons
June 18, 2012 by John M. Guilfoil

Sukhoi's Su-25 is a versatile, ugly, tough attack jet similar in purpose to the American A-10 Thunderbolt.

The Su-25 is not a standoff, long-range missile truck. It is designed for low-altitude suppression of enemy armor and anti-aircraft weapons, and it has been an effective and dependable workhorse of many air forces for more than 30 years. More than 1,000 have been built, and few have ever been confirmed to have crashed. (Many have been lost in combat, of course, and a Russian Air Force Su-25 was accidentally shot down by its wingman near Vladivostok in 2008.)

The Su-25 is meant to travel slowly through a battlefield to engage ground targets with guns, rockets, bombs and missiles at close range from 11 external hardpoints. It has heavily armored and can withstand direct hits while remaining operational.

The Su-25 did not have any combat success during the Persian Gulf War, with the plane's only combat action coming when two were shot down quickly by American F-15Cs. By 1998 Iraq was still reported to have 12 Su-25s. Three Su-25K export craft were seen in a demonstration over Baghdad in 2002, but the Su-25 has not been used by Iraq since the 2003 invasion by the American-led coalition.

Today, the Frogfoot remains in active service in no fewer than 20 air forces including the Peruvian Air Force, which has conducted successful drug interdictions with the Su-25, and the Ukrainian Air Force, which operates dozens of Su-25s.

SU-25 design & development

Su-25 (Su-28) Frogfoot Close Air Support Aircraft, Russia

 « click for more info
Sukhoi Su-25 Frogfoot - The Soviet Union's Tank-Buster

The Su-25 and Su-28 single-seat, close-support aircraft, known by the Nato reporting name Frogfoot, is manufactured by the Sukhoi Design Bureau Joint Stock Company, based in Moscow, and the Novosibirsk Aircraft Production Association of Novosibirsk, Russia.

The Su-25 is designed to defeat small mobile and stationary ground targets and to engage low-speed air targets at the forward edge and in the nearest tactical and operational depth.


The aircraft has an all-welded, 24mm titanium alloy cockpit with transparent windscreen armour block to protect the pilot. It is equipped with a single K-36L Zvezda ejection seat.


The wings have ten pylons for carrying a range of air-to-air and air-to-ground weapon systems selected for the mission. Air-to-ground missiles include Kh-23 (Nato codename AS-7 Kerry), Kh-25ML (AS-10 Karen) and Kh-29l (AS-14 Kedge). The air-to-air missiles carried on the smaller outboard pylons are the R-3S (AA-2D Atoll) and the R-60 (AA-8 Aphid).

The aircraft can be fitted with UB-32A pods for 57mm S-5 rockets, B-8M1 pods for 80mm S-8 rockets, S-24 240mm guided rockets and S-25 330mm guided rockets.

The Su-25 can be armed with 350kg-670kg laser-guided bombs, 500kg incendiary devices and cluster bombs.

The aircraft's twin-barrel gun, the 30mm AO-17A, is installed in the underside of the fuselage on the port side. The gun is armed with 250 rounds of ammunition and is capable of firing at a burst rate of 3,000 rounds a minute. SPPU-22 gun pods can also be installed on the underwing pylons. The pods carry the GSh-23 23mm twin-barrel guns, each with 260 rounds of ammunition.


The aircraft is equipped with an integrated navigation and aiming system, including ASP-17 BTs-8 gun / bomb sight with an AKS-750s camera installed in the nose. The nose also houses a Klyon PS laser ranger and target designator, manufactured by the Urals Optical and Mechanical Plant (YOM3).

Warfare.ru: U-25 Frogfoot Close support/ground attack - Ceiling, m: 10'000

by Oui on Wed Aug 13th, 2014 at 03:04:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
[ET Moderation Technology™]

We have already had Haisenko.

You are adding nothing by this (yet again huge copy-paste job) post, but to insinuate that Haisenko's claims are enlightening.

Poring over selected photographs in order to demonstrate "facts" was exactly the kind of source of endless dispute (in that case, re 9/11) that made us decide on ET not to admit conspiracy theories in our field of discussion. That has been constant ET policy for years, as shown in the Editorial Guidelines.

Please stop posting CT, or the posts will be removed.  

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Aug 13th, 2014 at 04:03:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Poring over selected photographs... Typical evidence is like that!

The cockpit photographs make surely a fair issue. Besides, presumed BUK missiles are heat seeking, thus unlikely to hit a plane in front.

by das monde on Wed Aug 13th, 2014 at 04:43:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
[ET Moderation Technology™]

That was an editorial comment to Oui, and doesn't call for your opinion.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Aug 13th, 2014 at 04:58:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Poring over selectedall photographs" is what Brown Moses does. Feel free to join his crowd at Bellingcat.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 13th, 2014 at 05:40:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good to see the pieces being patched together. Are their conclusions in sight?
by das monde on Wed Aug 13th, 2014 at 12:58:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here is a good roundup of the evidence:

Reasons Why It Was Kiev Who Shot Down MH17

Why do you think that the Western media and governments have become utterly silent about MH17? It is because the story that the rebels downed the plain has become completely implausible. Anyone who thinks differently is in denial.

It was immediately obvious that the downing of MH17 was a false flag op, in the tradition of Ghouta, intended to damage the rebels and Russia.

A bomb, H bomb, Minuteman / The names get more attractive / The decisions are made by NATO / The press call it British opinion -- The Three Johns

by Alexander on Wed Aug 13th, 2014 at 07:11:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
[ET Moderation Technology™]

You don't seem to have understood the warning above to Oui (similarly given to das monde).

ET is not a forum for CT. Do not persist in pursuing this topic.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Aug 14th, 2014 at 01:40:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you read his article carefully, you will find he does not base his technical specs on Wikipedia, he does mention the data has been altered.

Peter Haisenko based his information on two sources:

"If you go to the trouble of broadening your knowledge by questioning a specialist book, you'll get completely different information: the maximum flight altitude of the SU 25 is 14,600 meters.
Check here: http://www.fliegerweb.com/militaer/flugzeuge/lexikon.php?show=lexikon-50"

and  the handbook "Flugzeuge der Welt" by W. Green (1984).

I see the data in the flieger web lexicon has been altered this month, via WayBackMachine archive I find the following:

Per August 2:
Dienstgipfelhöhe: 14'600 m

Altered as follows ...
Per August 6: Dienstgipfelhöhe: Maximale Einsatzhöhe: 7.500m, Maximal erreichte Höhe (flight test) 14.600 m

I have secured images with a screenshot.

My post linked the Haidenko info as follows, as usual I add links to support the argument. You see I already deduced the data of 14,600 m would be during a test flight. The alteration proved my assumption as correct.

Maximum flight altitude Su-25

The handbook "Flugzeuge der Welt" by W. Green (1984) , a standard work which essentially quotes the facts of the military "Janes Manuals" (also used to be NATO reference), already 1984 determined the maximum flight altitude of SU 25 (SU 25 MK, export version) with 10,670 meters (page 208 f.).

Warfare.ru: U-25 Frogfoot close air support/ground attack - Ceiling, 10'000 meter

German's flieger web lexicon states maximum flight altitude reached is 14,600 meters [test flight].

As you see, I have added a third source warfare.ru and have thoroughly provided information of the operational design of the Su-25 Frogfoot.

by Oui on Wed Aug 13th, 2014 at 06:00:57 PM EST
I checked the cached webpages Su-25 of flugzeuginfo.net from August 6, 2011 through October 2013, this spec has not been altered.

Suchoi / Sukhoi Su-25 Fighter / Bomber

The Sukhoi Su-25 is a twin-engined single-seat ground-attack jet aircraft developed by the Soviet Design Bureau Sukhoi.

 « click for more info
Photo: Max Bryansky (foxbat.ru)

Crew 1

Propulsion 2 Turbojet Engines
Engine Model Tumanski / Tumansky R-195Sn
Engine Power (each) 44,2 kN 9937 lbf

Speed   950 km/h  513 kts  590 mph
Service Ceiling   10.000 m  32.808 ft
Range   900 km  486 NM  559 mi.

Empty Weight   9.500 kg  20.944 lbs
max. Takeoff Weight   20.500 kg  45.194 lbs

Data is based on info weblink Sukhoi Company (JSC)

Info from my earlier source:

Oxygen system
The oxygen system is intended for supplying oxygen to pilot at the heights more than 2000 m both in the cab and with the ejection. Oxygen system includes two subsystems: main (onboard) and oxygen system of ejection seat. Onboard system is fed of four balloons with a capacity of 5 l each (storage pressure 15 mpa)), placed on the wall of the niche of the nose strut of chassis. The mixture of air and oxygen will be given at the heights from 2000 to 7000 m the oxygen mask of pilot, above 7000 m - pure oxygen. Emergency oxygen system BKO-EVE ensures the supply of oxygen during three minutes after ejection, system is included by hand or automatically.
by Oui on Wed Aug 13th, 2014 at 08:30:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
[ET Moderation Technology™]

You seem determined to continue these copy-pastes in support of conspiracy theory.

Last warning: ET is not a forum for this type of post and this type of discussion.

If that does not please you, CT sites on the Internet are legion.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Aug 14th, 2014 at 01:36:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
[ET Moderation Technology™]

Comments closed in this diary.

Any future diary or thread attempting to show supposed evidence on the MH17 disaster, in favour of whatever theory of what happened, will be deleted without further warning.

ET Editorial Guidelines

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Aug 14th, 2014 at 01:52:28 AM EST

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