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Tsipras Ups The Ante

by afew Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 01:55:30 AM EST

I'm lifting a comment from talos to introduce a new Greece thread:

Tsipras today (8 February) presenting the programmatic statements of the new government, pretty much retreated on - not very much. He's not asking for a headline hair-cut, but that's old news, he's willing to slowly implement some of the measures. But it seems that the sum total of the Thessaloniki program is on the table. And aggressively so.

Tsipras favours Greek jobless over creditors in defiant policy speech:

"...Declaring his administration "a government of national salvation", Tsipras said he would also pursue claims to win back from Germany wartime loans that Greece had been forced to make to Nazi occupiers. "I can't overlook what is an ethical duty, a duty to history ... to lay claim to the wartime debt."

Tsipras did signal a new round of belt-tightening - but on the part of ministers and MPs. He promised to sell half of all government limousines and a government jet in a money-raising exercise, as well as trimming back on security. Tsipras said Greece's new class of politician would set the example of frugal living. "We do not need three government aircraft. Politicians can do away with the privilege of having a car," he said...

...The first priority of this government ... is tackling the big wounds of the bailout, tackling the humanitarian crisis, just as we promised to do before the elections," he said. "The bailout failed. The new government is not justified in asking for an extension ... an extension would be a mistake and a catastrophe. We want a new deal, a bridge programme that would give us the fiscal space that a sincere negotiation requires," he said.

Syriza's pledges to the electorate include a freeze on pension cuts, a property tax overhaul, free electricity to those who have been cut off, reinstating jobs and raising the minimum wage. But it remains to be seen how quickly the measures are introduced - a phased approach could save the broke government money, officials have indicated.


talos:

Tsipras speech was probably the most viewed inauguration speech in the history of the Greek parliament and it was highly emotional, as well as uplifting - this is the first government in memory which remains true to its core program after the elections, and a government that promises to tackle problems and issues that were considered untouchable until a few weeks ago. As public support of SYRIZA is now verging on the astronomical (by Greek standards) Tsipras concluded his speech in almost Bolivarian timbre, his voice breaking at one point, more than a little verklempt:

"We are living historic moments.
In the dramatic developments of the past few days, the final word, the seal, was set by the people of Greece.
They did not delegate responsibility. They laid bare their soul. They did not authorize anyone. They took their fate into their own hands. They did not vote against. They honored the previous generation who resisted and resurrected this land and saved hope for the generations which are coming. They did not just ignore ultimatums and blackmail. They stood tall.

This people deserves only respect. They deserve to walk proud, to live in dignity.

The current government can only be the voice of this people. In the honor, the history and the culture that this people carry in their luggage we can only be but their volition, nothing more

That's why we won't negotiate our history. That's why we will not negotiate the pride and dignity of this people. These are sacred and nonnegotiable principles to us.

We are flesh from the flesh of this people, we come through the pages of history of this people and this is why we will serve them till the end

We are every word in the Constitution of this country. We took an oath to this Constitution, and this Constitution we will serve - and we will serve it till the end, doing justice to the values, the struggles, the vision, and the sacrifices of the people of Greece..."

Display:
Washington urges eurozone leaders to compromise with Athens - FT.com

The Obama administration is pushing eurozone leaders to compromise more with Athens as fears grow that a protracted stand-off could damage the global economy, say senior EU and US officials.

The US lobbying comes amid mounting concern in Brussels and Washington about the hardline stand taken by some eurozone governments, particularly Germany, that Greece must press on with budget-cutting commitments made under its existing €172bn bailout regardless of last month's election, which brought anti-austerity party Syriza to power .

"This is a conversation we're having with people," said a senior US official involved in the talks.

Frau Merkel is now in Washington.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 01:58:53 AM EST
While they're at it Washington should also end the stanoff with Russia. That would also be good for the world's economy as well as its survival.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 03:11:07 AM EST
Merkel offer to settle Germany's economic war if the USA settles its out of hand 'soft power' war against Russia via the Ukraine - or vise versa.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 09:36:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There seem to be a lot of things blowing upto call what's  happening  in Ukraine  a s"soft power."

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg
by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 01:34:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But only their plans for Ukraine for the US Neo-Cons. And they will blame Obama for that. And now they expect Europe to enforce the territorial claims of the new Neo-Con sponsored Ukrainian Government. And they get to impose sanctions on Russia, sanctions which hardly affect the USA.

I would like to see some public truth telling by European leaders about the role and effect of US 'soft power' on the lives of Europeans. Tsipras is one possibility, Podemos is another. Might as well fight the cancer of US Neo-Con poicies while fighting the cancer of Austerity. It might broaden the front and drive wedges between their opponents both in the USA and Europe.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 04:49:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Interesting that the first two comments in this thread are about Russia and about Merkel's diplomatic visit to the US. On that note, Merkel in Amerika: Wir müssen reden (Spiegel, 09.02.2015)
Nur ist diesmal die Lage eine ganz andere: Europäern und Amerikanern droht die Spaltung in Sachen Ukraine, weil all die Sanktionen und diplomatischen Bemühungen die russische Aggression bisher nicht haben stoppen können.

...

Die Amerikaner sind enttäuscht von der deutschen Zögerlichkeit. Die deutsche Verteidigungsministerin Ursula von der Leyen sei eine "Defätismus-Ministerin", schimpfte die Europa-Beauftragte im US-Außenministerium, Victoria Nuland, bei einer internen Besprechung der US-Delegation am Rande der Sicherheitskonferenz. Man müsse die europäische Position jetzt "bekämpfen". Bei der Besprechung fiel auch der Begriff des "Merkel-Bullshit" im Zusammenhang mit der Moskau-Reise der Kanzlerin.

...

Die Kanzlerin aber wird auch in Washington bei ihrem Nein bleiben. Warum? Weil sie nicht glaubt, dass Waffenlieferungen einen messbaren Nutzen hätten, im Gegenteil. Die Bundesregierung scheint davon auszugehen, dass der umkämpfte Osten des Landes für lange Zeit nur noch pro forma Teil des ukrainischen Staatsgebiets sein wird, in der Realität dagegen eine autonome Region, die - wenn überhaupt - mehr auf Moskau hört als auf Kiew.

Merkel in America: We need to talk (Spiegel, 09.02.2015)
Only this time the situation is very different [from last May]: a split on the Ukraine issue threatens Europeans and Americans, because sanctions and diplomatic efforts have not been able to stop Russian aggression.

...

The Americans are disappointed at the hesitant Germans. German defence minister Ursula von der Leyen is a "defeatism minister", cursed Victoria Nuland, in charge of European affairs at the US State Department, during an internal discussion of the US delegation on the margins of the [Munich] security confenrence. According to her the European position must now be "fought". During the discussion the expression "Merkel-Bullshit" was also droped in connection with the Chancellor's trip to Moscow.

...

The Chancellor will nevertheless hold to her 'no'. Why? Because she does not believe that weapons deliveries carry a measurable benefit, to the contrary. The German government seems to project the impression that the disputed East of the country will for a long time only belong to Ukraine on paper, while in reality it will be an autonomous region which will listen, if at all, to Moscow more than to Ukraine.



A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 04:49:12 AM EST
Time for Europe to give the finger to Vitoria Nuland before we all get killed.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 06:30:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
More to the point, it is time for the Obama Administration to reassign her.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 09:38:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes. Put her in charge of Israeli Palestinian relations where she can't make things any worse.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 09:43:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
... sadly, it turns out that they can always get worse.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 11:41:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
With her in charge we would likely end up with a glass lined crater where the temple mound is now and then with nuked cities in Iran and Pakistan, for starters.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 05:41:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Let me put a new spin on this: we should also fear Putin underestimating the irrationality of the US leadership and its capacity for aggressive reaction (see Pristina airport incident).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 07:44:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I guess I agree with Merkel on this, there's nothing to be gained in trying to wrest East Ukraine away from Russian influence - largely because IMO, it's not going to work - Russia has a land border with said area, there is no way to use force to change the equation there. As such, sending weapons, etc. is just sacrificing more civilians to a pointless conflict.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 07:18:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Face saving for the Neo-cons for the time so they won't go shouting that "Obama lost Ukraine!" Like we supposedly 'lost' China.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 09:40:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hard line against Russia, soft line against Greece. That's the view from Washington. From Berlin, the view is the opposite.

What can I say, except thank God for Atlanticism.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 03:13:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In fact Germany is acting like a bully if you consider how it behaves towards Russia and Greece.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 04:25:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by das monde on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 02:04:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Repeating what I added in the thread: Also among the commitments of this government, was granting citizenship to children of immigrants born and living in Greece, thus proving yet again that the impact of the Independent Greeks on government policy is marginal: they were ecstatic at the programmatic statements, with not even an asterisc... (and Tsipras mentioned working towards a mutually accepted name for the Republic of Macedonia, in terms that used to be anathema for IG)


The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 05:15:47 AM EST
More details regarding the Greek government reparations claim.

http://rt.com/news/230479-greece-tsipras-germany-nazi/

by Ivo on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 05:46:27 AM EST

Germany rejects Greek claim for World War Two reparations - Reuters
The demand for compensation, revived by a previous Greek government in 2013 but not pursued, was rejected outright by Sigmar Gabriel, Germany's vice chancellor and economy minister.

"The probability is zero," said Gabriel, when asked if Germany would make such payments to Greece, adding a treaty signed 25 years ago had wrapped up all such claims [...]

Gabriel referred to the "Treaty on the Final Settlement with respect to Germany", also known as the "Two plus Four Treaty" signed in September 1990, by the former West and East Germanys and the four World War Two allies just before German reunification.

Under its terms, the four powers renounced all rights they formerly held in Germany. For Berlin, the document, also approved by Greece among other states, effectively drew a line under possible future claims for war reparations.

by das monde on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 01:15:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Merkel pours cold water on Greece's push to end bailout - FT.com

Chancellor Angela Merkel poured cold water on a push by Greece's new government to end its bailout and strike a new financing deal with its creditors, saying the current programme was "the basis of any discussions that we have".

Ms Merkel, speaking in Washington, also said "what counts" is the proposal "that Greece puts on the table" at an emergency meeting of eurozone finance ministers on Wednesday.

Earlier in the day, Germany's powerful finance minister hinted darkly that a Greek plan to leave the bailout at the end of the month could draw a harsh reaction from financial markets.

"I wouldn't know how financial markets will handle it, without a programme -- but maybe he knows better," Wolfgang Schäuble told reporters, referring to Alexis Tsipras, the new Greek premier.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 02:16:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"I wouldn't know how financial markets will handle it, without a programme"

It's good to see that, with entire generations being sacrificed in Greece, Spain, Portugal and to some extent elsewhere, we do not lose track of the real priorities.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 02:57:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Under its terms, the four powers renounced all rights they formerly held in Germany."

Even with this particularly self-serving reading of history, why then not extend the same kind of deal to Greece, who surely are much less able to pay the present value of their debts in full than Germany would have been in 1990.

Or is it because Germany reckons that Greek debts were incurred in a much less respectable context than the nazi ones?
Well, for sure, a country that can even consider bringing a moderate left-wing party to power is to be punished where a country willing to establish an incredibly violent dictatorship to please its manufacturers has to be commended for its entrepreneurship.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 03:00:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Greece wasn't an explicit signatory, and I doubt anyone was paying much attention to when and how - and if - Greece approved the treaty, which was largely about the demilitarisation of Germany anyway.

But it's of some relevance to Russia and the Ukraine, because Russia was under the impression that under the terms of the treaty NATO wouldn't expand further east.

When everyone involved can't agree about a basic fact like that, war reparations, which so far as I know aren't even mentioned explicitly, remain a grey area.

But of course it's all grandstanding and politics. The bottom line is that Greece has become a threat to German narcissism, and it's impossible for the Germans to imagine a Europe in which Germany doesn't get special privileges, while simultaneously being endlessly victimised by the southern countries.

If there's any one fact that proves the failure of the European project, it's this peculiar delusion.

You can't build a federation on nationalism. And unfortunately the Euro has done nothing to prevent nationalism.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 04:14:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I actually think the Greeks are entirely serious, and it's not rhetoric.

The references have been made to 11B euros. That is the loan, not reparations. The loan amount has been figured by taking the amount in Greek drachmas in 1943-44, converting it to US bonds in 1943-44 (to avoid calculations using drachma, because the drachma collapsed in the following war years), in order to come up with a figure in present US bonds.

During the speech Sunday, Tsipras never used the Greek word for reparations. Nor did he use the word for loans. Instead, the precise words he used in referencing the war debt were "what history owes."

by Upstate NY on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 11:27:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
>Instead, the precise words he used in referencing the war debt were "what history owes."<

Then let history pay.

by IM on Wed Feb 11th, 2015 at 06:38:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Then how about we put the Greek debt on hold for seventy years. Then we can discuss it again.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Wed Feb 11th, 2015 at 08:47:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Although one can argue over exactly where and when, surely that line has to be drawn at some point. Otherwise we are left with endless appeals to history and histories. And that has worked so well for us. Only a couple more generations and we would, to repair the damage done to indigenous America, have to ship everyone back to Europe.

These questions keep coming up. The notion of reparations for slavery is a topic of debate in the US. It gets dicey when one talks of who pays whom exactly, never mind how. Do I owe Oprah a few hundred dollars?

Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other. -- Dr Johnson

by melvin (melvingladys at or near yahoo.com) on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 03:07:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Greece is referencing a loan, not reparations.
by Upstate NY on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 11:28:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As Upstate NY said this is about the German forced loan during the nazi occupation of Greece. The amount owed for these loans only (not including reparations), according to a recent estimate, is €54 billion.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 01:16:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The loan was interest-free so presumably the interest that should have been included (as opposed to the principal) falls under reparations. But I doubt if they expect the Germans to pay it: the main purpose of bringing it up is as a response to the claim by the German government that repaying your loans is a moral issue.
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 01:28:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On the other hand, even though the 'loan' was the flower over the genitals involved in the rape of Greece by the Nazis, has any Greek government ever formally relinquished claim over that repayment, however characterized? I would think such a relinquishment would have to be embodied in a treaty, ratified and adopted, that superseded Greek laws and courts.  

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Feb 11th, 2015 at 12:06:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No. It can be argued (perhaps) that Greek gvts have relinquished claim over reparations, but not on the loan

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Wed Feb 11th, 2015 at 05:15:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It could also be put to practical use as a basis for mutual debt forgiveness, though that would need a cooperative Mr. Schäuble.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Feb 11th, 2015 at 06:28:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Any chance that Merkel will sacrifice Schäuble over Greece? Schäuble has become increasingly vocal and Merkel hasn't said a word yet.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 11th, 2015 at 06:29:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Given that Schäuble is a Gesinnungstäter (perpetrator motivated by conviction), should Merkel choose to execute another of her characteristic U-turns, removing Schäuble would indeed be pertinent. However, Schäuble is still in the top three of most popular politicians in Germany, so Merkel would either have to wait until a scandal (unlikely), provoke a gross insubordination (unlikely he'd fall for that) or "kick him up" into another significant job (but there are few choices where he could do little damage). Or invoke health reasons.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Feb 11th, 2015 at 06:45:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BTW, I did read some utterings from Merkel (or was it just her speaker?). The one that stayed in my mind was that "there is no reason to abandon policies that proved themselves". Well that's nice: since the policies against Greece didn't prove themselves as advertised, they can be abandoned.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Feb 11th, 2015 at 06:47:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Youe interpretation is like second marriage: the triumph of hope over experience.
by IM on Wed Feb 11th, 2015 at 07:09:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
On the contrary, Merkel has divorced from her convictions often enough.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Wed Feb 11th, 2015 at 08:50:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But usually when she sensed the mood in Germany to be changing.
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Wed Feb 11th, 2015 at 08:54:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Right, and population but perhaps more important press is much more fanatical pro austerity.

Austerity in other countries that is.

by IM on Wed Feb 11th, 2015 at 11:19:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the balanced budget fetish about one's own government is quite strong. Just ask Starvid about the situation in Sweden...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Feb 11th, 2015 at 11:30:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That is true. But in Germany the population is pro austerity in the usual sense: pro cuts in general, against almost all specific cuts. Except foreign aid and the military.

But to be pro austerity when all the cuts hit (directly) people in other countries - much more fun.

by IM on Wed Feb 11th, 2015 at 11:36:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There have been many books psychoanalyzing the German people as a collective. Unfortunately, this seems to be the province of academics, and they are little read.

In the USA, there is barely any of it written for our own mass psychoses.

by Upstate NY on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 09:21:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm rather more happy that books psychoanalysing 85 million people as a singular mind are little read. There are mass psychoses but you lose the plot if you don't look which part of a population actually believes it.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 10:57:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
See The Honey and the Hemlock by Eli Sagan.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 10:04:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My "interpretation" was a snark, motivated by the complete disassociation from reality behind Merkel's uttering.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 03:46:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Germany owes Greece money for the war - but morality needn't come into it
By the early 90s, German politicians' most common argument against reparations was the lapse of time - even though Germany had been forced by the German-allied court of arbitration to pay DM47m in compensation in 1974 for first world war damages 60 years after the start of the war [...]

Yet it's important in this case to make a distinction between reparation payments for war crimes and repayments of so-called Besatzungsanleihe: monthly loans demanded from the Greek government in 1942-44 to pay for the maintenance costs of the German army in Greece and further military activity in the Mediterranean, even delivering food from starving Greece to Rommel's "Afrika-Korps". In early 1945, in the final days of the Third Reich, a group of high-ranking German economists calculated this "German debt (Reichsschuld) to the Greek state" to amount to 476m Reichsmarks, which would be roughly €10bn today.

Compared with the highly emotionally charged issue of wartime reparations, this debt is relatively free of moralistic baggage. It could - and should - form the basis for talks about the foundation of a "future fund", a foundation dedicated to a joint rehabilitation of a "shared" history and the financing of a symbolic infrastructure project.

by das monde on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 12:15:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Would it be a good plan for Greece to agree on (most of) the immediate requirements of ECB financial service, in exchange for recognition of the Nazi loans? Greece would stick to the rules with an implicit reduction of its debt...
by das monde on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 02:09:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If Greece has to be repaying the loan tightly for 200 years by some realistic estimate, looking back 70 years is a fair game.
by das monde on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 09:12:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hugo Dixon: To the brink (09 February 2015, Reuters BreakingViews)
Tsipras may therefore already be operating on a Plan B which envisages persuading the Greek people to take the country out of the single currency - even though over 70 percent of them also want to stay in it.

It is vital that the euro zone remains fair and cool-headed. It is not in its interest that Greece quits the euro. On the other hand, it cannot just agree to give Tsipras the bridge financing he wants on the terms he proposes.

The least bad approach is to avoid giving Tsipras ammunition with which to further stoke national pride and wait for the financial realities to bite. If and when the Greek people can no longer get cash from their bank accounts, the current mood of euphoria may vanish and some compromise may be possible.

Then again, this may well not be possible and Greece may have no option but to bring back the drachma. The euro zone needs to prepare for the worst.

Includes an interesting overview of Tsipras' announced measures on banking.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 05:51:13 AM EST
They don't need much persuasion. Thus mythical 70% figure is an artifact of the way the question was polled. There are no polls that ask "Would you rather stay under an austerity regime, for ever, with no labor rights and a declining health system, OR leave the Euro". If phrased this way, I assure Dixon that the numbers would be different.
At this point if Tsipras goes to new elections on a "No compromise even if we leave the EZ" platform, or to a referendum, he would win either in a landslide

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 06:19:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
At this point if Tsipras goes to new elections on a "No compromise even if we leave the EZ" platform, or to a referendum, he would win either in a landslide

That is my view. And, unless the government falls due to perceived betrayal or gross corruption and incompetence, I think he would cement a left wing dominance in Greece for at least a generation, probably three. Better than FDR.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 09:52:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Dixon's piece is bad propaganda BTW

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 06:22:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Dixon is pretty infuriating most of the time. Is he misrepresenting Tsipras' intentions regarding the banking system, for instance?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 06:29:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well he doesn't find it important enough to mention that the current boards of Greek banks and the people who have been running them are not only oligarchs, and key players in Greece's network of corruption, feeding - among other vices- the bankrupt media who are no more than loss-making vehicles of right-wing propaganda, but are actively implicated in scandals. Or that the laws protecting the boards from prosecution were, as one might expect, created to cover-up real financial crimes.

I'll try to write a debunk of Dixon's piece, what he writes is typical of a lot of misinformation circulating around the www

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 06:39:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I find it extraordinary that Dixon would defend immunity from judicial prosecution as an integral part of central bank and HFSF independence.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 06:41:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
He is a pillar of the establishment financial journalism scene. (Reuter, FT etc.) Democracy and justice are lesser concerns than the good of the financial system, in his view...
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 07:24:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Only if against all evidence from the past 8 years you still believe that market discipline is effective against corruption can you think that it is in the interest of "the financial system" that the people in charge have immunity from prosecution.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 08:52:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Or if by "the financial system" you in fact understand "the particular oligarchs bankrolling my paycheck."

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 03:22:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You believed that on the 9th, but now with the HSBC scandal it's pretty obvious why they want immunity lol.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Feb 13th, 2015 at 04:04:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
talos:
Well he doesn't find it important enough to mention that the current boards of Greek banks and the people who have been running them are not only oligarchs, and key players in Greece's network of corruption, feeding - among other vices- the bankrupt media who are no more than loss-making vehicles of right-wing propaganda, but are actively implicated in scandals.

I share lengthy talks with a German friend about this and her opinion is that if Syriza served up arrest warrants for Greece's top ten tax evaders as evidence of good faith it would go a long way towards placating the German public about seeing the quandary through different eyes.
The other glaring inconspicuousness is why in all this melee and brouhaha has no-one mentioned energy?

Greece has untapped megawatts of solar power!!

Germany could pay for her war reparations with 45 Billion E worth of PV, which would be a win-win gamechanger, but no-one mentions it at all.

Seriously?

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Feb 13th, 2015 at 04:02:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I find that across the WWW, even from people who you would expect to know better, there's an article of faith that staying in the Euro - at any cost - is the best course for Greece.

This leads them to massive overestimations of the strength of the Troika/Euroausterity position on negotiating with Greece.

As such, I suspect Grexit is steadily becoming more inevitable.

And I fear it will create panic in the financial system, because it will prove that the politics of holding the Euro together is dead. And since the economics were proven dead in the last crisis...

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 07:28:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that a lot of people equate the euro to the European Union, and the EU to peace and prosperity in western Europe... Some people also conflate the EU with the Council of Europe while these are two different institutions (whithout any link in membership).

To a certain degree, this is true. But it has always seemed to me to be forgetful of others stability factors that maintain peace between the western Europe nations: nuclear weapons in France and Britain for a start.

by Xavier in Paris on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 08:30:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
While I can understand the fetish of American Liberals with the Federal level (indeed many good things in the USA are federal in nature: Civil Rights act, Roe vs Wade, New Deal, ...) I completely fail to understand what (some) European left-wingers see in the EU.

The European welfare states were created at the national level (indeed you can easily see how things like universal health-provision vary radically in their models from country to country) and most of the civilizational achievements were made independently at the national level (social security, education, ...). The "European" part of these achievements was mostly through inspiration from country to country. Other then (arguably important things) like free movement there is little to associate the EU with "prosperity".

On the other hand, I do not think it is difficult to find many examples where the EU is sinking many of the good European achievements.

by cagatacos on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 08:49:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I believe the setup of the european Union has changed considerably since 1956.

Jean Monnet, the french banker responsible for a lot of the EU treaties, has been a huge promotor of state-dominated economical flux during the first world war. In the WW1, he proposed and got a reorganisation of the naval transportation by ordering private companies to form convoys and to transport goods that were deemed necessary by the state war plans, against a former liberalism of the sea, which allowed merchant shipowners choose the goods to transport, including weapons, and balancing them for maximum profit.

So a banker grown up in a very liberalized world before ww1, who saw the interest in a state regulated economy. He came back to his banking (including a fair bit of murky banking) between the two wars and then again to state regulation, at an international level when drafting the European Union treaties (think Euratom and CECA).

Since then, we have lost a lot of the regulation bit (appart in a "whatever is permitted in any EU country is allowed everywhere" way), and gain a lot of liberalization. But I don't believe it to be a beforehand destiny.

by Xavier in Paris on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 09:54:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not predestined, indeed. It was ideological capture by neoliberals in the 80s and 90s that doomed the EU as a progressive project.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 11:51:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And would probably have doomed all the national welfare states anyway - I'm not sure if dismantling EU regulations slowed that down or not, at least until the euro crisis and austerity.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 11:59:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Thats what happens if you have a single point that you need to capture. Imposing that agenda on a pan-European scale would have been next to impossible if the power rested on individual nation states. Capture becomes much easier this way.

Now, sometimes capture goes the right way (again some American examples come to mind). But to be quite frank, the whole notion of capture seems profoundly anti-democratic in any case.

by cagatacos on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 12:04:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Imposing that agenda on a pan-European scale would have been next to impossible if the power rested on individual nation states.

This is, of course, not true. The claims of parochial provincialism notwithstanding.

If you want a model for Europe without the EU, look at the relationship between the EU and Norway, then replace the EU by the US, and Norway by the envisioned gaggle of pint-sized jokes pretending to be sovereign states.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 03:18:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And IMHO even that is too optimistic. If the nationalistic escapades within the EU framework are any indication, a Europe without EU means war, with 100% certainty: there is nothing to stop escalations.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 04:43:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Imposing that agenda on a pan-European scale would have been next to impossible

Beg your pardon!? Non-EU Europe, Latin America, Africa, Asia: the neo-liberal agenda was imposed almost everywhere quite successfully, and in not just a few instances more radically than anywhere even in the post-Lehman EU. Some hints at how it works: IMF, shock therapy, race to the bottom.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 04:47:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I wonder. I think there is now a difference between the estimations of backbenchers, media people and financial elites on one hand and those who (1) call the shots and (2) had talks with Tsipras or Varoufakis over the last two weeks. I think the latter might have lost some illusions regarding Syriza's willingness to look into the eye of the tiger (just think of the pained faces of Dijsselboem or Schäuble).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 04:53:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But are Germany and the EC prepared to back down on, even austerity, for starters? She thinks Germany is winning, and, for the conservatives, all of the problems we see are features, such as the destruction of the social safety net.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Feb 11th, 2015 at 12:17:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]


A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 04:39:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]


A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 10:39:46 AM EST
Hit jobs against Varoufakis, who is labeled an anti-semite:

http://www.timesofisrael.com/new-greek-finance-minister-accused-of-anti-semitism/

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/giannis-varoufakis-ist-griechenlands-finanzminister-antise mit-a-1017402.html

I wonder how these charges play in Greece, since the previous gov't played footsy with Golden Dawn, and no one cared, especially given Varoufakis personal family history with Greek fascists (abduction, jail, torture, in front of Varoufakis' own eyes). How does it play in Greece given the gov'ts new entreaties to Macedonia, its will to make all Greek-born immigrants citizens, the new bill to have civil unions for gays recognized?

Varoufakis responded to charges of anti-semitism in 2010:

http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2010/12/02/antisemitisms-handmaidens/

Remarkably, his critics, who ran the radio station, replied on his blog. This is what they sound like:

New antisemitism
Starting in the 1990s, some scholars have advanced the concept of New antisemitism, coming simultaneously from the left, the right, and radical Islam, which tends to focus on opposition to the creation of a Jewish homeland in the State of Israel,[65] and argue that the language of anti-Zionism and criticism of Israel are used to attack the Jews more broadly. In this view, the proponents of the new concept believe that criticisms of Israel and Zionism are often disproportionate in degree and unique in kind, and attribute this to antisemitism.[66] It is asserted that the new antisemitism deploys traditional antisemitic motifs, including older motifs such as the "Blood Libel".[65]
Critics of the concept view it as trivializing the meaning of antisemitism, and as exploiting antisemitism in order to silence debate and deflect attention from legitimate criticism of the State of Israel, and, by associating anti-Zionism with antisemitism, misused to taint anyone opposed to Israeli actions and policies.[67]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism#New_antisemitism

One can be opposed to the policies of Israeli governments indeed many Israelis as you point out are: but to use the language which you used, aside from being blasphemous, was also in breach of SBS guidelines

Reply ↓
Joe kaplan on July 24, 2011 at 13:02 said:
On the role of economists, not everyone sees economists as part of the problem some believe they should be part of the solution: "As a result of their ability to influence the media, economists can be incredibly important in steering public policy, often in directions that may not be supported by most of the country. Trade policy provides an excellent example of a case in which the mainstream of economics profession has been adamant in pushing economic policies that clearly do not have the support of the bulk of the public."
You feel your role is to shine a light on the edicts of your profession, so how does sit with the context of your economic reporting on SBS radio, rather then highlighting the inadequacies with your colleagues; you were entering a field you are not asked to comment nor is your field of study. i.e. middle east conflict, given that your reporting is biased it also indicates you have either have very little understanding of journalistic ethics or chose to completely disregard them as your audience and the broadcasters taking your reports had apparently no objection to broadcasting and listening to your unbalanced views. It's all quite ironic now with Greece in such an economic mess is turning to Israel for assistance,

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/head-to-head-minister-geroulanos-did-greece-have-an-in terest-in-stopping-the-flotilla-to-gaza-1.373147

joe kaplan on July 24, 2011 at 09:08 said:
if Greek economists were doing their job which is ensuring the Greek economy is viable instead of propagating their anti-Semitic viewpoints the world would not be reeling from Greece's backward attitude to productivity

by Upstate NY on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 12:15:55 PM EST
These "charges" are laughable. No one takes them seriously in Greece. Including I think those who propagate them. The previous gvt was in bed with Nazi golden dawn and incuded a demented nationalist book publisher who sang the praises of arguably the most anti-semitic book in Greek history (written by K.Plevris, a notorious sef-described Nazi and father to a former LAOS and ND MP). No one abroad minded much. LAOS participated in the Papademos gvt, and was to the right of Marine le Pen, while their leader endorsed the 911 conspiracy theories that "Jews were warned and escaped" the crash. Again, you didn't hear many compalaints. Varoufakis is anti-racist. Period. Those than conflate severe criticism of the neocolonial state of Israel with antisemitism are usually Israeli ultra-nationalists or have ulterior motives

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 02:08:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Character-assassination material for inconvenient or anti-establishment figures always comes handy; wait for the sex-scandal involving a leading Syriza figure.
by Ivo on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 02:37:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To be prepared, what is a sex scandal in Greece? Are there sex scandals in Greece?

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 04:40:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It will be for the Northern European consumption, Protestant voters love this kind of sleaze
by Ivo on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 05:01:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They tried something against Syriza's mayoral candidate for Athens Gabriel Sakelaridis (allegedly based on a blurry private video when he was 20, between consenting adults, but it's doubtful he was even the person portrayed). He went out and confronted his "accusers". He is now gvt spokesperson, and pretty popular.
Unless it is something very ugly / illegal / violent I can't imagine anything that will have much effect on anyone - or will be believed

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 06:33:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Rape allegations or sex with a minor currently appear to be among the favorites tools to taint and eliminate the inconvenient (witness the Assange or the DSK cases; or the dusting off of the Polanski affair and his arrest in Switzerland as a revenge for his unequivocal portrayal of the US and UK political establishments as war criminals in the Ghost Writer); outing homosexuality somehow lost the devastating potential once it had though in the more patriarchal culture of Southern Europe it may still has some negative impact.
by Ivo on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 05:18:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by Bjinse on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 07:22:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
dalliance with the turkish
by IM on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 03:32:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem with this is that it conflates anti-zionism with anti-emitism, suggesting that the former inevitably is driven by the latter.

This is a gross fallacy of the 4th kind.

In fact I have read several essays from jews in the diaspora who worry that the casual and too frequent Likudnik smearing of those who criticize the aggressive policies of (Likud) Israel towards the Palestinians  as being anti-semitic will reduce the very idea of what it means from being genocidally prejudiced (and beyond civilised debate) to one of mere nuance on the Palestinian question.

The smeating of Varoufakis is part of that problem. It's just a cheap smear

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Feb 9th, 2015 at 04:40:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, the Germans know it all about anti-semitism...

German Court Rules Synagogue Firebombing an `Act of Protest'

After three men firebombed a German synagogue, a judge let them off with just arson charges because they intended to `bring attention to the Gaza conflict.'
by das monde on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 01:40:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Kirchik?

Come on.

by IM on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 03:58:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But nice that you call our migrants "the germans".

 Integration accomplished!

by IM on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 03:59:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Was the judge a migrant?
by das monde on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 09:01:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you want to inform yourself about the german justice system out of the mouth of a american neoconservative?
by IM on Wed Feb 11th, 2015 at 03:29:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]


A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 09:52:28 AM EST
Greece - live updates | Guardian

the finance minister Yanis Varoufakis, told the Guardian that he and his team are working "day and night" to fine tune the proposal he will put on the table when his eurozone colleagues meet in Brussels tomorrow.

Others, including the American economist Jamie Galbraith, have flown in to help.

"I'm fully aware that we need face-saving narratives and I will work day and night to produce them and to suggest those narratives to them," Varoufakis told me, adding that the new government's programme was fiscally fully responsible.

But...

Greece - live updates | Guardian

The carefully orchestrated dance between the new Greek government and its European creditors appeared to crack Tuesday, with top Brussels officials infuriated by what they see as wildly misleading claims coming from Athens.

Apparent claims from Athens officials to other governments suggesting that the U.S. Treasury supports a plan by the Syriza-led government to alleviate Greece's debt, and that the European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker either backed the plan or had an alternative himself, have enraged senior economy officials in Brussels.

A senior European official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, described the situation as "berserk" and said, "there is no plan."

He added that the European Commission and U.S. Treasury were both perturbed at the way they had apparently been represented externally by Greek officials. A team from the U.S. Treasury led by Daleep Singh, deputy assistant secretary for Europe & Eurasia, was in Athens late last week.

"The Greeks are digging their own graves," the EU official said.

There is no plan... How reassuring

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 10:44:28 AM EST
"The Greeks are digging their own graves," the EU official said.
by Upstate NY on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 11:31:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And yours
by Upstate NY on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 11:31:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, they would say that, wouldn't they?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 12:01:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Varoufakis is a game theory guru, but all of them are playing the mad card ;-)

Popcorn time, it s going to be fun watching europeist technocrats having their A.sH.le enlarged while keeping their very serious people face.

EU belongs to the rubbish bin of history.

by fredouil (fredouil@gmailgmailgmail.com) on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 12:21:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
EU belongs to the rubbish bin of history.

that is the real takeaway from all of this

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 01:44:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So, you're voting UKIP?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Feb 11th, 2015 at 06:34:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This may be one of UKIP's 'stopped clock' moments.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Feb 11th, 2015 at 12:46:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
[ET Moderation Technology™]

fredouil, if you abuse ratings you're gonna get the bum's rush.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 03:36:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
NYT - Paul Krugman - Greece: The Tie That Doesn't Bind

Relations between Greece and its creditors are not improving. Was this bad diplomacy on the part of Tsipras/Varoufakis? Maybe, but my guess is that there was nothing they could do to avoid a bitter confrontation short of immediate betrayal of the voters who put them in office. And creditor-country officials are acting as if they still expect that to happen, just as it has repeatedly over the past five years.

But they're almost surely wrong. The dynamics are very different this time, and failing to understand them could all too easily lead to unnecessary disaster.

Actually, let me stress the "unnecessary" aspect. What Greece is asking for -- although German voters probably don't know this -- is not a fresh infusion of money. All that's on the table is a reduction in the primary surplus -- that is, a reduction in Greek payments on existing debt. And we have often been told that everyone understands that the official target surplus, 4.5 percent of GDP, is unreasonable and unattainable. So Greece is, in effect, only asking that it get to recognize the reality everyone supposedly already understands.



keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 01:46:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This sounds perfectly reasonable until you understand that this is not about the money. It's about who's in charge, and who's a subordinate.

Greece is demonstrating self-directing strategic autonomy. This is absolutely forbidden by the unspoken logic of top/bottom dog.

Germany and the neo-liberals must bring Greece to heel. Otherwise the global perception of neo-liberal financial power will be destroyed forever.

Being reasonable is off the table, because the stakes are so high.

The neo-libs don't care if Europe goes up in flames. All they care about is their own position of power. I don't expect them to be reasonable or rational about maintaining that.

The wider problem is that we can't keep making economic decisions on the basis of idiot chimp logic. Sooner or later reality is going to have to be allowed in. Posturing in suits and ties is a very poor substitute. (Not that it was ever intended to be one. But it needs to vacate the stage anyway.)

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 04:37:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am afraid you are correct (and that is sad), and this is my working assumption.

That being said, a civilized and rational actor should at least try to have a proper debate (as SYRIZA seems to be trying). After that...

... assuming that you are correct, anyone that tries to behave in a sovereign way has to be prepared for a major setback. That is why I hope SYRIZA really has a plan B. A real plan B, assuming they neo-libs will play very dirty.

by cagatacos on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 05:47:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Krugman interestingly quotes Matthew Yglesias of 3-4 years ago. A more extended quote:

The Global Ruling Class

It's interesting to try to think about the incentives facing Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou. Normally you would think that a national prime minister's best option is to try to do the stuff that's likely to get him re-elected. No matter how bleak the outlook, this is your dominant strategy. But in the era of globalization and EU-ification, I think the leaders of small countries are actually in a somewhat different situation. If you leave office held in high esteem by the Davos set, there are any number of European Commission or IMF or whatnot gigs that you might be eligible for even if you're absolutely despised by your fellow countrymen. Indeed, in some ways being absolutely despised would be a plus. The ultimate demonstration of solidarity to the "international community" would be to do what the international community wants even in the face of massive resistance from your domestic political constituency.

Generally, a good observation. But particularly, where is Papandreou now? What favors did he score from the Davos set?
by das monde on Wed Feb 11th, 2015 at 09:06:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He is running a pasok splinter that did not make it into parliament.

But then, he fell after trying to put austerity to a referendum, so perhaps the Davos set thinks he wasn't very loyal.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Sat Feb 14th, 2015 at 02:48:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One hour ago Varoufakis, speaking in parliament said that, although the government will do everything within its powers to avert a rupture / clash with our partners, if we were to accept ultimatums we had better stay home. "If you rule out rupture/clash, you're not negotiating""

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 01:48:03 PM EST
Nice one - game theory rules.

this is in complete contrast to the US Republicans "If you rule out negotiating, you can go straight to the rupture/clash"

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 02:35:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Greek defence minister says Greece has Plan B if EU rigid on deal
Greek Defence Minister Panos Kammenos said that if Greece failed to get a new debt agreement with the euro zone, it could always look elsewhere for help.

"What we want is a deal. But if there is no deal - hopefully (there will be) - and if we see that Germany remains rigid and wants to blow apart Europe, then we have the obligation to go to Plan B. Plan B is to get funding from another source," he told a Greek television show that ran into early Tuesday. "It could the United States at best, it could be Russia, it could be China or other countries," he said.

Kammenos is the leader of Independent Greeks, a nationalist anti-bailout party that is the junior coalition partner of Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras' radical left Syriza party.

Greece's Deputy Foreign Minister Nikos Chountis, who holds the European Affairs portfolio, told Greek radio that Russia and China had offered Greece economic support though Athens had not requested it [...]

Foreign Minister Nikos Kotzias is due to visit Russia on Wednesday.

by das monde on Tue Feb 10th, 2015 at 10:41:57 PM EST
Kammenos talks too much

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Wed Feb 11th, 2015 at 05:14:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I would encourage him to talk even more so that Europe gets the sense that the next guy really wants to emulate Putin, in his very small Greek way.
by Upstate NY on Wed Feb 11th, 2015 at 10:37:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Plan B is to get funding from another source," he told a Greek television show that ran into early Tuesday. "It could the United States at best, it could be Russia, it could be China or other countries," he said."

Are these folks reading Euro. Trib.  ... a lot of this stuff sounds very familiar.

Anyhoooo ... I have a thought (oh no, now what?!). Along with the charm tour that Greece is now on to the creditors, why don't the Syriza bigwigs get together with other austerity-screwed nations (Portugal, Spain, you know the players better than I do) and provide a united front on ALL the debt?  Then go to the creditors and say "Whoever cuts us the best deal  will get something, the rest of you get zilch. Who wants to play?" Greece alone is worrisome enough; all of the screwed countries together would scare the piss out of Germany. That's it, back to tutoring.


They tried to assimilate me. They failed.

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Wed Feb 11th, 2015 at 05:29:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Russia would want to wait for oil rebound, naturally.

If Russia, China would wish to piss the West off, could they help Greece to default and still have keen investors? Or would the planet be then 6 feet under?

by das monde on Wed Feb 11th, 2015 at 06:29:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by Bjinse on Wed Feb 11th, 2015 at 06:50:26 AM EST
I was following the news from the Eurogroup meeting last night. When they announced the long-delayed press conference at about 10.30, I wanted to watch it live. Not having a computer, I even spent half an hour installing a Flash-compatible browser on my phone. Then for half an hour, the live feed showed the empty chairs of Lagarde and Djisselbloem, with a buzz of journalistic chatter. Then they stopped the feed. Then about midnight, we got a few minutes of Djissembloem explaining that there was no joint statement because they had not agreed on anything, and that there was no roadmap, just a new meeting on Monday...

My opinion is that this is rather well-staged by the Greeks, to make the Eurogroup and their Troika hangers-on look like a bunch of wankers.

A dangerous game perhaps, but a whole lot of fun.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 03:51:32 AM EST
Disappointment after Greek bailout talks break down - live updates | Business | The Guardian
Now this is fascinating. The eurogroup ministers did apparently agree a statement last night... only for the Athens government to reject it at the last minute.

Most finance ministers left the room believing a deal was done, only for Greece's Yanis Varoufakis to phone home with the details -- and be vetoed -- according to the Financial Times' Peter Spiegel.
The (almost) agreed eurogroup statement on Greece

He's also got hold of the statement <applause>, and here it is:

Today the Eurogroup took stock of the current situation in Greece and the state of the current adjustment programme. In this context, the Eurogroup has engaged in an intensive dialogue with the new Greek authorities.

The Greek authorities have expressed their commitment to a broader and stronger reform process aimed at durably improving growth prospects. At the same time, the Greek authorities reiterated their unequivocal commitment to the financial obligations to all their creditors.

On this basis, we will now start technical work on the further assessment of Greece's reform plans. The Greek authorities have agreed to work closely and constructively with the institutions to explore the possibilities for extending and successfully concluding the present programme taking into account the new government's plans.

If this is successful this will bridge the time for the Greek authorities and the Eurogroup to work on possible new contractual arrangements. We will continue our discussions at our next meeting on Monday 16 February.

"Concluding the present programme" was apparently a red line for Tsipras...

This gives him time to do some statesmanship before Monday's meeting. Looks like he's going all in.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 04:09:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"And bridge the time was a concession to his concept."

I think he is to much focused on words now.

by IM on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 06:12:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As usual, don't believe everything you read. There's a lot of deliberate faming going on.

The initial stories had Varoufakis phoning Tsipras in Athens.

Of course, Tsipras isn't in Athens. He's actually in Brussels.

And other news sources are saying Schauble angrily left when Varoufakis wouldn't agree to "extend the bailout" but he insisted on "Amending the bailout."

The news media is helping to frame one or the other sides as unreasonable.

by Upstate NY on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 09:40:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
According to the papers, Tsipras arrived in Brussels this morning. The phone calls were allegedly last night.

I don't see any inconsistencies between the stories. Varoufakis phones Tsipras, who changes "extend" to "amend" in the draft, then Schauble storms out.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 09:46:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I read tweets last night that Tsipras was in Brussels.
by Upstate NY on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 10:44:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So did I, but there was a lot of conspiracy theorizing.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 10:51:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The way I read it in German media, Varoufakis refused to sign it after Schäuble stormed out.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 11:00:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Link?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 11:32:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It was videotext on a TV channel I read during breakfast. Checking online media now, for example Süddeutsche, I find the same basic timeline pieced together downthread: Schäuble left around 23h "believing a deal was reached", but Tsipras vetoed it by midnight after Varoufakis called him.

The linked article is interesting for its analysis/speculation part: it actually explains that agreeing to an "extension" would be the end of the Tsipras government which now enjoys 70% support from the Greek population for its policy; then says that snap elections could bring back "known" conservative politicians which might be what some want, but it omits to mention that this scenario is unrealistic and a succession of the Syriza government by one of the fascists is also a possibility.

In Spiegel's version, Varoufakis kicked the agreement when Schäuble 'barely left the room'.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 12:09:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Greek debt talks fail, next meeting on Monday | EurActiv

"We had an intense discussion, constructive, covering a lot of ground, also making progress, but not enough progress yet to come to joint conclusions," Jeroen Dijsselbloem, the chairman of Eurogroup finance ministers, told a midnight news conference.

"We didn't actually go into detailed proposals, we didn't enter into negotiations on (the) content of the programme or a programme. We simply tried to work (on) next steps over the next couple (of) days. We were unable to do that."

Greece will have no further contact with experts from the European Commission, the International Monetary Fund and the European Central Bank before Monday, he said. That was the opposite of how other EU ministers understood they had left matters, when they headed home an hour or so earlier.

Looking as casually confident as when he had arrived at his first such talks, Varoufakis said: "Now we are proceeding to the next meeting on Monday. We hope that by the end of that one, there is going to be a conclusion in a manner that is optimal both for the perspective of Greece and our European partners."

Eurogroup, Greece fail to agree on bailout extension

Dijsselbloem also ruled out that experts of the three international creditors - the European Commission, the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund - will go to Athens between now and next week.

For his part, Varoufakis told reporters it is out of the question to accept an extension of the current bailout, which he called a "failed experiment" which has run the Greek economy into the ground.

(...) Several versions of a joint statement were drafted during the meeting, with Reuters quoting one version which would have agreed to "extend" the current bailout.

German finance minister Wolfgang Schaeuble left the meeting before it ended, on the assumption that there was agreement on that statement.

But after several phone calls to Athens, Varoufakis did not get the green light to sign the text.

(...) The German finance minister, but also the Austrian, Dutch and French finance ministers, say no new programme can be agreed until the existing one is succesfully concluded.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 04:32:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are dueling stories out there.

Varoufakis said that the story in Reuters and FT is dubious.

I have a hard time believing that the Greeks would have agreed to extend the current program.

How is that possible?

Other reporters )not greek) are now saying that Schauble left when Varoufakis refused to agree to extend the bailout. Varoufakis said that the words bailout could remain in the document if the verb to describe them was "amend."

This is a pretty big compromise by Varoufakis, but the Eurogroup stuck to its guns and insisted on "extend."

by Upstate NY on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 09:24:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's pretty clear that there is compromise possible on the content of the "program/not a program" which is to be "extended/amended". The words can be a sticking point.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 09:58:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]


A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 10:30:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wow, that's a much more optimistic reading of the situation. That would indicate that there is a powerful "juste milieu" faction.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 11:06:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have a solution to all of this.

Instead of "extend and pretend" they should move to "extend and amend."

That way everyone goes home happy.

by Upstate NY on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 11:14:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Some say the real clincher was 4.5% ("extend") vs. 1.5% ("amend") primary surplus. But is this right? What would have been the practical consequences of an extension for a few months?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 12:12:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I believe the basic changes are to be installed immediately for humanitarian purposes. Heating, food, etc. Which would have broken with austerity measures. Not to mention the fact that in the period before elections, things have unraveled. Greek production is still sinking as is the economy.

In other words, the Greek PM needs to pass laws dealing with the humanitarian crisis immediately.

He has already said that any new hirings will be made as part of the already agreed to plans.

Furthermore, the rise in pension and minimum wage will be gradual over 2 years.

So, a significant part of the Syriza agenda can indeed weight for months or maybe more, but the immediate money for food and electricity/heat cannot.

by Upstate NY on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 12:20:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What I mean is: what obligations does the continuation of the programme for a few months mean in practice? Say if Syriza goes ahead with its programme without modifications, then after just two months, can they deny funds on the reason that Greece failed to make a 4.5% primary surplus in 2015?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 02:10:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I see. Well, the troika has been saying to the previous gov't for some time now that it will absolutely have to go for a 3rd bailout. They have been saying this for a year. It's even been in the German press.

So they know adjustments needed to be made. The problem is, however, that they requested additional CUTS, and when the previous gov't refused, they ended talks.

by Upstate NY on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 02:47:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They want to destroy SYRIZA's political capital. SYRIZA is having unprecedented approval rates based on the fact that they do have "red lines" that they aren't willing to cross and seem to be the only party in memory that actually strives to keep its pre-election promises. If these fall SYRIZA will have a serious problem with its supporter base (not to mentions its parliamentary team).

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Fri Feb 13th, 2015 at 07:22:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Should this matter if we are only talking about a four month extension (march april may june) anyway?
by IM on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 05:05:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know, I'm asking.

On the other hand, I don't see why the Greek government should have agreed even to a symbolical concession without getting anything in return, be it a similar symbolic concession of the austerity idiots or a real promise of not demanding more of the same when those four months are over.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 05:53:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
" I don't see why the Greek government should have agreed even to a symbolical concession without getting anything in return,"

They get a lot of money in return, you know. on almost zero interest too.

by IM on Fri Feb 13th, 2015 at 05:37:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But one can't take that money out of the current context, which is basically social destruction. so then...

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Fri Feb 13th, 2015 at 06:47:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
aso then greece is demanding a bridge loan until july, They will get one but quibble about frame and words and what not.
by IM on Fri Feb 13th, 2015 at 06:54:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They get a lot of money in return, you know. on almost zero interest too.

This is not true.

You need to start from the premise that the alternative to a negotiated final settlement is for Greece to tell its creditors to fuck off and die.

So what a bridge loan actually does is give the creditors, who would otherwise get nothing whatever, a whole lot of money. And Greece only has to pay a little over zero interest on all that money going to bail out the perpetrators of the worst massacre since the civil war.

That Greece needs non-symbolic concessions to agree to such a thing should not be a surprise.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Feb 13th, 2015 at 04:17:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"You need to start from the premise"

No I don't.

So what a bridge loan actually does is give the creditors,

 it is mostly roll over yes.

but the old creditors perpetrated not much: It is hardly crime ti buy a ten year greek bond in 2005 for few basis points more.

by IM on Fri Feb 13th, 2015 at 05:49:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not seeing how this comment in any way refutes Jake's point.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Fri Feb 13th, 2015 at 06:35:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He was begging the question and I pointed that out.
by IM on Fri Feb 13th, 2015 at 06:49:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"You need to start from the premise"

No I don't.

You do if you want a realistic understanding of the negotiations.

In the event that negotiated agreement is not reached, each party to the negotiation should be expected to execute on their best alternative to negotiated agreement (BATNA).

This is the baseline upon which negotiators can potentially improve.

Greece's BATNA involves telling its creditors to fuck off and die: In the event of a failure to reach agreement, there will be no downside for Greece in telling its creditors to fuck off and die. And all else being equal, having no creditors is a superior alternative to having creditors. So among possible BATNAs, the "go fuck yourselves" strategy is strictly dominant.

Which makes "creditors get not a single red cent" the baseline against which any realistic observer must measure the outcome.

Given this baseline, it becomes clear that Greece is actually being used as a conduit to launder a bailout of feckless holders of impaired bonds.

It is really not out of bounds for the Greek government demands to get something tangible in return for playing bag man for that kind of money laundering scheme.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Feb 13th, 2015 at 06:52:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, you just assume a situation and call that the baseline. You assume that if the negotiations fails the greek public debt would just vanish into the air. Or more exactly you assume it already has vanished and the negotiation is about the topic how much should be resurrected.

But of course this isn't true. If the negotiation fails Greece is exactly where it is today. It could then decide to default on some or all its public debt. But this decision has still to be made. And the cost of this decision has still to be borne.

The Eurozone members also would still be where they are today. The EFSF would just need to sell a few bonds less. As far as repayment is concerned - that starts in thirty years or so. And if - if - Grecce then defaults it will hit remaining private bond holders first or the ECB. Not the eurozone states.

Furthermore, there is also the little question Greece actually wants. You think they should want a annihilation of all their debt. And so just represent your opinion as the actual greek position. It isn't.  

They actually want a bridge loan and the abolition of the Troika and the memorandum. They can get only the first from the eurozone members and only the two and three on their own. If they want the bridge loan, they have to concede on two and three.  

And there comes my argument about words and labels and symbols in. Isn't Tsipras to hard fighting about symbols now?

by IM on Fri Feb 13th, 2015 at 07:37:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You're missing the point. Any concessions on 2 and 3 (and a few more points as well) means that the government collapses, the tiny glimmers of hope that have lit in a striken population will die and after that there is nothing but political chaos and darkness for the foreseeable future. Pretty much the end of Greece as a quasi-1st world country. There is zero political room or time to maneuver. If pushed to capitulate on these issues, there is no deal, even if that means GRexit. In fact if pushed to capitulate SYRIZA could run in snap elections (or a referendum) on a GRexit platform and win huge.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Fri Feb 13th, 2015 at 08:24:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But this decision has still to be made. And the cost of this decision has still to be borne.

But that is a trivial decision, because if negotiations fail then there will be a unilateral strategic sovereign default. Simply because a negotiated settlement is the only way in which this can be avoided.

The difference between disorderly partial default and disorderly total renunciation is not very great, and recent Argentine experience provides an extremely instructive example of why half measures are infeasible when unilaterally entering strategic default: It opens the door to brinkmanship on part of holdout creditors down the line.

So in the event that negotiations fail, there is no credible alternative to total renunciation.

Furthermore, there is also the little question Greece actually wants.

For the BATNA scenario, what Greece wants does not matter. Only what Greece can do unilaterally. And Greece has a limited number of options if negotiations fail, which are quite easy to evaluate against each other.

They actually want a bridge loan and the abolition of the Troika and the memorandum. They can get only the first from the eurozone members and only the two and three on their own. If they want the bridge loan, they have to concede on two and three.

And there comes my argument about words and labels and symbols in. Isn't Tsipras to hard fighting about symbols now?


No, the Memorandum is a very real policy, and the "advisors" who were ejected by the Greek government were very real agents of hostile foreign powers, running inside Greek government buildings willy-nilly.

If this were to be a matter of cheap symbolism, then this content would first have to be stripped from those terms.

Greece actually made that proposal: They were prepared to agree to amending the Memorandum rather than scrapping it (i.e. strip out all tangible content, let the Germans have the empty shell as a trophy, and continue reality-based discussions on the contents in a separate negotiation track).

This proposal was not accepted.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Feb 13th, 2015 at 08:41:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Here is the reiterated position of the hawks:

Stubb: No more patience with Greece | Europe | DW.DE | 12.02.2015

Prime Minister Stubb, Finland has until now helped with the financial rehabilitation of Greece. How much patience do you have left with the Greeks?

Alexander Stubb: At this point, we have very little patience to spare. Finland has provided a loan of a billion euros ($1.4 billion). Bear in mind that our entire state budget is only 53 billion euros. So we are not talking about trifles here. We think that Greece should definitely keep to its contracts and obligations. That is what European integration is about. If one country were to break with its obligations, it would be unfair to those who have paid. And it would also be unfair to countries that already had to undergo difficult adjustment programs, such as Ireland, Portugal and Spain. We expect the Greeks to do their bit.

The compromise is very simple. They could receive an extension of the current bailout program, which in our opinion would be in Greece's best interests. But then they would have to push on with their structural reforms. The body monitoring these structural reforms is the International Monetary Fund (IMF). The IMF has 70 years of experience with situations like this. I don't think we should allow any scope for populism in Europe. We have obligations and contracts, and we must stick by them.

Oh yeah, the IMF's 70 years of experience in ruining countries. But I call attention again to this demand for "structural reforms". For some, this might be primarily a religious war about debt, deficits and austerity, but for others, it's about enforcing neoliberal "reforms" with blackmail.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 12:51:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Mr Stubb is up for re-election very soon, I believe (which probably explains the bloodthirsty language)

Someone should ask him : If you were to lose the elections, and your successor was obliged by the EU, or some external agency, to continue your policies rather than implement the ones they were elected on, would you be pleased or displeased?

(yes, it's a trick question)

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 01:10:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
He puts his own self in an impossible situation by emphasizing how much money the Finns gave to Greece.

If I were a Finn, I'd be pissed off too--that my money is going into the pockets of banksters.

by Upstate NY on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 02:48:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So Finland is a bottom feeder of the Ponzi frenzy "extend to Greeks and pretend".
by das monde on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 07:50:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My opinion is that this is rather well-staged by the Greeks, to make the Eurogroup and their Troika hangers-on look like a bunch of wankers.


A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 10:38:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Schauble lost his cool. Fail.
Now I want to see Juncker in the ring with him.
Popcorn!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 01:19:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
According to Jean Quatremer in Libération, the Greeks are aware that they can't change the "programme" which expires at the end of February, because that would require parliamentary approval in some EU countries. Since they can't agree to the cuts required to complete the program, some fudging is required, but basically the deal was done last night. But Tsipras couldn't agree so early in the process, that would look like he had folded...

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 01:29:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Timeo Quatremer et Danaos ferentes, or something like that.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 03:33:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Dijsselbloem had earlier indicated that Monday's Eurogroup is the effective deadline for an agreement to be able to pass the parliaments.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Feb 13th, 2015 at 02:35:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Quatremer believes a compromise will be found:

Trois scénarios pour la Grèce

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Fri Feb 13th, 2015 at 05:13:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Quatremer hates Tsipras and everything he stands for, so I'm not sure what to believe of his writings at this time.

(He is otherwise very knowledgeable of the daily office life of the commission and european bodies, all the little trifles and procedures, but remember always that whenever something bad happens, it will be because of the states and not due to the political framework in Brussels)

by Xavier in Paris on Fri Feb 13th, 2015 at 05:40:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Personally, I think Quatremer is a dope. And I really don't take what he says about Greece seriously, he has consistently shown anti-Greek bias.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Feb 13th, 2015 at 06:22:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
awesome? (dope slang = awesome?)
by Xavier in Paris on Fri Feb 13th, 2015 at 06:51:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A dupe?
by IM on Fri Feb 13th, 2015 at 06:53:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A dope is someone who is dopy ie slow-witted.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Feb 13th, 2015 at 07:30:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
thanks.

Sorry.

by Xavier in Paris on Fri Feb 13th, 2015 at 11:06:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No need to apologize, dope has many meanings.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Feb 14th, 2015 at 02:44:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
redstar:
A complete Euroweenie hack
by Bernard (bernard) on Fri Feb 13th, 2015 at 03:33:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Merkel, on Greece, says Europe always aims for compromise | Reuters

(Reuters) - German Chancellor Angela Merkel said she was looking forward to her first meeting with leftist Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras on Thursday and that the European Union's tradition was always to work for a compromise.

..."I would only say that Europe always aims to find a compromise, and that is the success of Europe..." she said. "Germany is ready for that. However, it must also be said that Europe's credibility naturally depends on us respecting rules and being reliable with each other."

Is this the hoped-for movement by Europe's chief opportunist? I rather think this is perception management: he who appears more willing to compromise will be blamed less for failure.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 12:53:36 PM EST
Merkel telling us about compromise?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 03:34:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Greek Issue Just Got Personal
They see themselves, their positions, as being under attack. And they blame Greece's new Syriza government for that. Which may seem logical at first blush, but that doesn't make it true. The people sitting on the other side from Varoufakis have dug themselves into these positions.

[...] it's perceived as personal, because it makes the `old' leadership uncomfortable. They haven't seen it coming, they were convinced, all the way, that they would prevail. They mostly still are, but in a now much more nervous fashion [...]

Perhaps a headline such as yesterday's `Greece Warned To Expect No Favors' sums it up best. The EU side sees - or at least publicly presents - any negotiation with Greece as handing out favors, while Syriza says it doesn't want any favors, it wants something that will give the Greek people back a future. And there is nothing that will make them not want that.

There is of course a fear within the EU that what is granted to Greece will eventually also have to be handed to other countries. Interestingly, though, the incumbent governments of the countries involved, Spain, Portugal, Italy, have a vested interest in Syriza failing. Because if it doesn't, their powers are set to dwindle. This is most urgently obvious in Spain, where PM Rajoy's ruling party is already way behind Podemos in the polls.

by das monde on Thu Feb 12th, 2015 at 10:41:32 PM EST
Indeed:

Rajoy: Spain has no money to spare, expects Greece to repay Spanish loans | EurActiv

Speaking to journalists after the European Council meeting on Thursday, Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy said the Spanish government expects Greece to repay the 26 billion euro loan that Madrid granted Athens.

"They will start paying this loan in 30 years time, so the conditions are fantastic. They will pay interest in 10 years time," Rajoy said. "The important thing us that Greece, which already started growing, sticks to the rules and the commitments they signed up for in exchange for loans," he added.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Feb 13th, 2015 at 12:48:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Good on Ilargi, here is some more:
Perhaps, also, it's the demeanor, the popularity and the person of Varoufakis, the `new heart-throb of the thinking German woman', as Ambrose (EP) characterized him. And I don't think he meant Angela Merkel. Christine Lagarde, perhaps, who showed up yesterday in the sort of attire that seemed designed to blend in with Yanis.

Has Merkel, Schäuble, Djisselbloem, et. al. considered that Lagarde is French and a part of UPM as well as the head of the IMF? The visceral response to her appearance here and her demeanor can produce effects that spread like wildfire. She has been at odds with German leadership and their EC retainers for a while on the issue of Greece.

Varoufakis is hot! Merkel must be struggling with bowel control just now. This could quickly degenerate into ridicule - which is truly deadly.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Feb 14th, 2015 at 09:15:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

by das monde on Fri Feb 13th, 2015 at 08:26:15 AM EST
talk about body-language....
by Ivo on Fri Feb 13th, 2015 at 03:00:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I must admit I don't know her?
by generic on Sat Feb 14th, 2015 at 08:40:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Belay that. She's Lagarde, no?
by generic on Sat Feb 14th, 2015 at 08:50:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yep.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Feb 14th, 2015 at 09:42:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not in a leather jacket, no.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 14th, 2015 at 09:46:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Leather jackets holders of the world, unite...
by Bernard (bernard) on Sat Feb 14th, 2015 at 02:11:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
She was out for a ride on his bike.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Feb 14th, 2015 at 02:30:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No longer a 'troika; now a 'deuxka'.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Sat Feb 14th, 2015 at 02:52:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A devotchka.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 14th, 2015 at 06:05:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Met a guy with the balls of 310 billion eu
by das monde on Sat Feb 14th, 2015 at 08:48:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Finally! She has a partner in Greece. So she dressed for the occasion.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Feb 14th, 2015 at 08:43:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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