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Greek referendum open thread

by Carrie Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 11:59:46 AM EST

Prime Minister of Greece: Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras’ address concerning the referendum to be held on the 5th of July (June 27, 2015)

Council of the European Union: Eurogroup Statement on Greece (with a footnote)
[1] Supported by all members of the Eurogroup except the Greek member.


See also from the Council's audiovisual service: Extraordinary Eurogroup meeting - 27 June 2015

In this series:

Display:
It seems to me that Europe have forced Tsipiras into a corner.
If he agreed to their proposals, Syriza's results at the next election would make Nick Clegg look good...
Yet there's a sense that he doesn't actually have a mandate for a Grexit.

Of course, we'd need to hear from ET'ers closer to the situation to get any sense of what the outcome may be...

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 12:07:50 PM EST
Methinks with the referendum, Tsipras got himself out of that corner, and it's quite apparent from the Eurogroup live-blogging that this dose of democracy was a bad surprise for his blackmailers. But the extraordinary Eurogroup-minus-Greece statement makes clear that the blackmailers still hope the blackmail could work until tomorrow – and the S&D member of the main cast is hoping for a government change after the referendum:

Greek crisis deepens further as bailout extension rejected - live updates | Business | The Guardian

Dijsselbloem: Much to our regret, the Greek authorities have rejected what was on the table even though it wasn't finished.

In the meantime there are already major risks for the Greek government handle.

And if they vote yes, the question is `who are we working with to implement the programme?"



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 12:56:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How do you embed to Tweets on ET? For now I'm quoting via The Guardian's live blogging:

Raoul Ruparel ‏@RaoulRuparel

Have always said #Varoufakis speeches to #Eurogroup read like econ prof lecturing students. Not surprised not liked.

Open Europe @OpenEurope

Slovak FinMin Kazimir asked "what do you expect from Varoufakis today?", says: "The same, the lecturing". #Greece

Dimitris Yannopoulos @DimitrisY

"Lecturing" is a common excuse for shrugging off well-supported arguments that participants are unable to refute. @RaoulRuparel @OpenEurope




*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 01:02:50 PM EST
IMO the worst part of the whole sad saga of the past six months is that the Syriza government failed to sway even a single player on the creditor side, and far from being uncomfortable fellow-travellers, all the S&D members in the game (from the Slovakian government to Commissioner Pierre Moscovici) refused a debate on economics and actively played along in the blame game. And blaming it on Varoufakis's style is at best a cop-out (but I more think it would be an adoption of anti-Varoufakis spin). The political elites are a lost case completely (and so is the MSM).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 01:14:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I put less emphasis on this point, simply because even the Cypriot FinMin goes along with the 18. There are powerful weapons that the EU can use against you, so there is no need to put yourself out there and risk the livelihoods of your people.

Europe needs only one scapegoat.

AND, one might even argue that Cyprus votes against Greece with Greece's blessing.

by Upstate NY on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 01:18:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
OK, Cyprus might be the one single should-be rebel choosing to be a silent fellow-traveller out of fear. What about all the others (who together are needed for a majority in all the EU institutions)?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 01:57:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, here is one S&D member singing in a different tune than another (but then he signed off that Eurogroup statement, too):

Bruno Waterfield @BrunoBrussels

Big contrast between Sapin & @J_Dijsselbloem. France stressing Greece will stay in euro, that talks can continue



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 02:00:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just Feance was the sole member state pro prolongation.
by IM on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 02:25:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
that France was pro prolongation, but was alone with that opinion.
by IM on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 02:26:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
what is pro prolongation? (I am not familiar with that term)
by rz on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 02:56:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
he second programm of the EFSF/IMF ends on tuesday. There are still a few undisbirsed billions left- If it should be still used, it has to be prolonged by the eurogroup (and the IMF). Today they said they won't do it.
by IM on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 03:01:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Pro prolongation of the current agreement past its expiration date next Tuesday to some time after the referendum next Sunday.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 03:02:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yep, reports say Sapin argued for the extension. But then signed off the declaration of the 18, ineffective and spineless like the rest of the S&D.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 04:52:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Note : Sapin does not represent France, he is the Commissioner. France is, I suppose, represented by the invisible Macron (I have seen absolutely no mention of him anywhere on the subject. Probably just as well...=

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 05:08:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sapin is France's Finance minister. Moscovici is the Commissioner. Macron is economy minister. Sapin and Moscovici attend the Eurogroup. Moscovici made no statement. Sapin gave a rather nice press conference and Q&A - you can find it by following the links in the diary.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 09:16:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
While Sapin stood out in insisting on continued discussions and Euro membership, he too criticised the referendum. As for Moscovici, he wasn't nice at all: he claimed an agreement was within reach and blamed the Greek government for breaking off the talks.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 09:42:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My bad. Thank you both. French politics sickens me so that I have switched it off. I've never really noticed any significant differences between Sapin and Moscovici (but Macron is clearly worse than both)

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Mon Jun 29th, 2015 at 05:49:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
one of the core problems seems to be that the Greek government has destroyed its own reputation as a serious and good faith negotiator.

Time and time again the Greek government left a meeting with what everyone understood was an agreement on this or that only to walk back from it the day after.

Time and time again the Greek government made promises to deliver this or that at some date only to show up with empty hands at the due date - or with something entirely else.

Varoufakis may be a genius economist and may possess a superb economic understanding - but if nobody else is even willing to trust you when you tell the time of day, all this knowledge is useless.

Every horse trader knows that his ultimate capital is his word. This also applies to diplomacy.

With no credibility left, the Syriza government finds only closed doors, regardless how right they are on the issues.

by DerFriederich on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 02:35:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't believe any of what you've written. Can you show us a source that backs up what you are saying?
by Upstate NY on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 03:02:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How many Frankfurter Allgemeine articles would you even bother to read? Or any German press?

From my point of view the game here was pretty obvious. Over the last sic months, the Greeks would loudly argue and protest at each step but in the end they would promise and accept whatever needed t be promised and accepted to get over the next hurdle at hand, without ever intending to hold up their parts of the various bargains, because they - correctly or not - considered those bargains nonsensical or counterproductive.

They traded credibility for time.

Which would have been an acceptable deal had they had something to show for it. But apparently they did not use those six months to actually make inroads at anything internally. So now they have hardly any internal progress against the January situation, and have no international diplomatic capital left.

The reports I see from the Euro group meetings speak of seething anger, utter annoyance, and a complete collapse of trust on the side of Euro group members towards Greece.

by DerFriederich on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 06:33:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just one.
by Upstate NY on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 06:46:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How many Frankfurter Allgemeine articles would you even bother to read?
As long as they're news and not opinion...
Or any German press?
We don't shy away from the German press on this blog. But no Welt or Bild, please.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 07:38:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It is a (stealth) class warfare on any level, from any side. Syriza vs the institutions, and internal "possibilities". Achievement metrics are necessarily confusing. There are no good options for those who have nothing, and the misery has to spread anyway. What Syriza is doing is at least interesting. From its point of view, the Eurogroup and Greece's rich have to be upset somewhat.  
by das monde on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 07:57:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The reports I see from the Euro group meetings speak of seething anger, utter annoyance, and a complete collapse of trust on the side of Euro group members towards Greece.
Then you have not been paying attention. This is not a new development; the minutes of the Eurogroup meetings have always consisted of seething denunciations of Greek sovereignty and high-handed demands that they comply with obviously insane demands.

If the rhetoric you are seeing has developed over the course of the "negotiations," then it is most likely because you are relying on unreliable secondary sources like FAZ.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 12:10:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How many Frankfurter Allgemeine articles would you even bother to read? Or any German press?

If you take your truth from the German mainstream media of today, you're no different from Americans who believed Saddam has WMD in early 2013, reading the US MSM. Yes, it has gotten that bad. The blatant superficiality, bad faith and pro-government bias was exposed best by the media reaction to the VarouFakeFake video.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 04:27:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, it has gotten that bad

Don't you mean it's worse? Or  is there a German equivalent of  Knight Ridder?

by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 05:10:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Heh. But, seriously, I don't know whether the German MSM of today can be judged worse than the US one of 2003 on the whole: certainly worse in lacking strong alternative media and having very little true investigating journalism active on the subject (there was that documentary on arte but nothing on the scale of say Seymour Hersch), but I think the journalist vanity aspect hasn't gotten as out of hand and there is no Fox News (however deep Günther Jauch sank in the VarouFake scandal he is no Sean Hannity or even David Broder).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 05:27:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Right, but even those media can't hide reality 100%. So, if Friederich can't be bothered to read anything but FAZ, he could try this. Friederich, if later in your life you are tempted to say you hadn't known, remember that FAZ article, will you?
by Katrin on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 06:53:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
very nice catch and post, Katrin.

DerFriedrich, darf ich Frage?

What is your skin in the game, if you would truthfully answer? Do you work for a political party, or a governmental agency? Are you somewhere a journalist? Do you work for the BND, or the DFB?

Do you have your own political website, or opinion journal?

I, for example, am here for the widening of my political and economic horizons on a non-professional basis.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 11:49:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Do you work for the BND, "

No he is just a Struwelpeter character come to life.

Do you want to to pursue this "are you n mossad agent" line of inquiry seriously?

by IM on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 01:03:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah so, du meinst "Die Geschichte vom bösen Friederich"

Seriously, i mean no offense, and was just wondering out loud...

Aside: as an example of professional propaganda, Der Spiegel just had an article about Merkel's silence about the Greek referendum. Neglecting to mention of course, her now public statement to Tsipras (on the phone i guess) that the Ref was "either the Euro or the Drachma."

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 02:32:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The reports I see from the Euro group meetings speak of seething anger, utter annoyance, and a complete collapse of trust on the side of Euro group members towards Greece.

As well as utter arrogance, complete refusal to discuss the economic rationality of their demands (pacta sunt servanda!), vile spin and false rumours (Varoufakis was supposed to be replaced, remember?), bafflement that someone would confront bad faith negotiations with the tools of democracy (bad, bad referendums, bad, bad parliamentary votes [if they are not in the Bundestag]) and lies and spin channelled anonymously to media like the FAZ with transparency (bad, bad 'leaks'), and complete superficiality (serious people wear ties).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 04:47:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The comments about the referendum I see in Germany (both from politicians and pundits) are more along the line of "that would have been a great idea, 4 weeks ago. Now it's just a stalling tactic and counterproductive").

Nobody opposes a referendum per se.

by DerFriederich on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 10:45:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL. I have absolutely no doubt that they would have called a referendum call a counter-productive stalling tactic four weeks, two months or five months ago, too. At any rate, the "take it or leave it" ultimatum was made now, not four weeks ago.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 10:48:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And what do these politicians and pundits think that the referendum should have asked (precise formulation, please)? According to Varoufakis it is ""Do you accept the institutions' proposal as it was presented to us on 25th June in the Eurogroup?", something that would have been rather difficult to ask 4 weeks ago.
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 10:49:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The negotiations are a matter of public record. It is quite clear that it was not Syriza who were negotiating in transparently bad faith.

Not that it matters. There was never any range of potential agreement. So negotiating in good faith was never going to be more than an exercise in pedagogy toward the slower learners among the remaining PASOK vote.

In the end, Syriza got what they wanted from the negotiations: Six months in which to consolidate power over the Greek bureaucracy. This was always going to end with a siege, but at least the defenders have now had time to clear the collaborators out of the gate houses.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 04:51:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That is a bold assumption. "Consolidated power".

But what did they accomplish for the people? There's hardly any progress on anything. All problems that plagued Greece in January are still plaguing it, and there is no trend to see in any, let alone the right direction.

Do you seriously believe a Syriza government will survive flushing the country down the drain? Once the Greek population understands how badly these guys miscalculated, they WILL be blamed for whatever hardship follows...

by DerFriederich on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 06:41:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]


A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 07:34:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... silly for any of the Troika to expect Syriza to capitulate to their demands ... because the Syriza government would not survive flushing the country down the drain, and flushing the country down the drain is the core demand of the Troika.

The fact that there was no benefit available to them from capitulation to that core demand, and no net benefit to the balance of the EU from attempting to enforce that demand, offers the basis for a negotiated improved outcome, but so long as the Troika stands firm on their demand that the Greek government flush the country down the drain as a pre-requisite for being given finance, its seems that the point of the negotiations was not to come to an agreement, in the more common general definition of the word, but rather to give more time to bring the Syriza government to its knees ... which low income nations would recognize as the IMF's preferred meaning of "agreement".


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 10:37:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But what did they accomplish for the people? There's hardly any progress on anything. All problems that plagued Greece in January are still plaguing it, and there is no trend to see in any, let alone the right direction.
The policy problems Greece had in January are not fixable on a six-month timeline, especially not while at the same time negotiating with a transparently bad-faith group of far-right gangsters.

What Syriza has accomplished is consolidate its power over the functions of the Greek state sufficiently that it can begin taking unilateral actions, which they could not do in January.

So now they can tell Stasi 2.0 to shove his far-right thuggery up his ass.

Do you seriously believe a Syriza government will survive flushing the country down the drain?
You're assuming they miscalculated. That remains to be seen.

This is not the beginning of the end, it's the end of the beginning.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 12:06:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What Syriza has accomplished is consolidate its power over the functions of the Greek state sufficiently that it can begin taking unilateral actions, which they could not do in January.

This also remains to be seen. I certainly hope so.

by generic on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 05:38:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's fair, but just going by its poll numbers alone at least some of the relevant people must have turned. The civil service is not a small enough or insular enough ghetto that it can totally dodge the sort of landslide popularity shift Greece has undergone over the last six months.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 11:28:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
flushing the country down the drain?

LOL. It's the troika policies that have been flushing the country down the drain:

And the latest ultimatum was promising Greece more of that (and they had the gall to criticise the last offer of the Greek government for anti-growth measures). Where the real goal isn't even Greece but scaring France and Italy.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 04:34:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As Mariana Mazzucato notes:

(my emphasis)

Greek bailout extension refused: a panel of leading economists give their verdict | Comment is free | The Guardian

Instead, insisting on the status quo full of more austerity produced an increasingly weaker Greece, more unemployment and more loss of competitiveness. Now alone, the only hope is that Varoufakis' insistence on a European-wide investment programme will at least find a national solution. Perhaps it can begin with Greece forming a development bank like the KfW, and use it to kickstart the kind of long-term investment strategy that should have been part of this `pact' from the start. Oh, and Italy's competitiveness is just as bad. So if Grexit now happens-- and Europe does not finally get a proper doctor in the room - get ready for Itexit over the next year.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 04:57:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Greek bailout extension refused: a panel of leading economists give their verdict | Comment is free | The Guardian

The conditions of the bailout therefore should have been conditions that emulate the kind of public sector reform and investment strategy that characterises many of the competitive powerhouses of northern Europe - including Germany. Indeed, Greece should not do what Germany says it does (austerity), but what Germany actually does (invest).

Over the last decade, Germany has invested in all the key areas that not only increase productivity, but also create innovation-led growth. Companies like Siemens are the result of a dynamic public-private eco-system in Germany, with high government spending on science-industry links (Fraunhofer institutes), the existence of a large and strategic public bank (KfW) that provides patient, long-term, committed capital to German businesses, a long run-focused stakeholder type of corporate governance (rather than the short-termist shareholder Anglo-Saxon model that southern Europe has copied), an above-average R&D/GDP ratio (rather than the below average one in Greece, Portugal and Italy), investments in vocational training and human capital, and a mission-oriented `energiewende' strategy focused on greening the entire economy.

With the obligatory quibbles that Germany in the past two decades is no role model at all in infrastructure investment, and the Energiewende has been turned into a self-contradictory mess (for example, due to resistance from Merkel's party, the economic minister just gave up on his idea to tax old coal plants out of competition).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 05:35:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Europe's Moment of Truth - The New York Times

It seems to me that the troika -- I think it's time to stop the pretense that anything changed, and go back to the old name -- expected, or at least hoped, that Greece would be a repeat of this story. Either Tsipras would do the usual thing, abandoning much of his coalition and probably being forced into alliance with the center-right, or the Syriza government would fall. And it might yet happen.

But at least as of right now Tsipras seems unwilling to fall on his sword. Instead, faced with a troika ultimatum, he has scheduled a referendum on whether to accept. This is leading to much hand-wringing and declarations that he's being irresponsible, but he is, in fact, doing the right thing, for two reasons.

First, if it wins the referendum, the Greek government will be empowered by democratic legitimacy, which still, I think, matters in Europe. (And if it doesn't, we need to know that, too.)

Second, until now Syriza has been in an awkward place politically, with voters both furious at ever-greater demands for austerity and unwilling to leave the euro. It has always been hard to see how these desires could be reconciled; it's even harder now. The referendum will, in effect, ask voters to choose their priority, and give Tsipras a mandate to do what he must if the troika pushes it all the way.

If you ask me, it has been an act of monstrous folly on the part of the creditor governments and institutions to push it to this point. But they have, and I can't at all blame Tsipras for turning to the voters, instead of turning on them.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 05:39:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree with the quibbles, but I like Mariana Mazzucato's analysis for a couple of reasons:

  1. It dares to say that being a solvency crisis, we have to look at solvency elsewhere - thus while the Eurogroup may believe that "Grexit is no problem" it's clear that other countries, Italy being the likely next candidate, are still in a crisis situation. Once Greek is no longer the focus of attention, the Eurozone will come under renewed pressure as an institution.

  2. As we have talked about for a long while at ET, the disparity in productivity and investment between the "core" and "periphery" in Europe sets up the EZ for crisis. AND the rules and beliefs are all stacked against improving the situation...
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 06:55:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
 "There was never any range of potential agreement. So negotiating in good faith was never going to be more than an exercise in pedagogy"

If that would correct, thy never negotiated in good faith.

by IM on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 01:09:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That does not follow. It is possible for a party to a negotiation to negotiate in good faith and still conclude that there is nothing on the table which improves on their BATNA.

Of course when one party negotiates in as transparently and psychotically bad faith as the Eurogroup has done throughout this process, it becomes very difficult to make any empirical distinction between Greece arguing in good faith and finding no partner with which to make a deal, and Greece playing along in a kabuki play. Since the only empirical test which would distinguish those two possible realities from each other would be to engage Greece with a proposal that was not obviously insane.

You might argue that stringing the negotiation along after it became obvious, back in January, that the Eurogroup was negotiating in bad faith was itself a form of bad faith. But you could also take the view that the negotiations ended when the Eurogroup made it clear back in January that it would never negotiate in good faith with Syriza, in which case playing along with the kabuki was not so much negotiation in bad faith as it was executing on their alternative to negotiated agreement.

I will leave it to those more pedantic than myself to conclude on that point, and simply note that by the end of the January clown parade Greece did not owe the Institutions the time of day. Nevermind good faith at the negotiation table.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 02:45:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You might argue that stringing the negotiation along after it became obvious, back in January, that the Eurogroup was negotiating in bad faith was itself a form of bad faith.
It wasn't, since the 20 February agreement was achieved.

However, there have since been public disagreements on the meaning of the February 20 agreement.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 02:57:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
True, I had misplaced a month in my internal calendar - it was in end-Feb. the Eurogroup pissed away its credibility by going back on the Feb. 20 deal before the ink was dry.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 03:13:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Every horse trader knows that his ultimate capital is his word. This also applies to diplomacy."

A claim below is:

Three things happened Friday. 1. Greece had a proposal that converged closely with the Institutions, except for $200m extra cut for military. 2. Institutions had a proposal that walked back increase on hotels from 6% VAT to 23%. 3. The Eurogroup not only ripped up the Greek proposal, but also the Institution's proposal, and then it gave Greece an ultimatum: extend the current MoU for 6 month, but without the requisite funding to see your debt repayments, or your banking solvency

How can this be about his "word", given (3). The Greek government say they will come back with an offer, they give the institutions most of what they ask for, and add a reduction in military spending on top, which in actual austerian economics is an additional good concession, and its all tossed to the side by the Eurogroup, insisting instead that the Greek government stop acting as if they are the elected government of their country and hand over sovereignty to the ECB.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 12:19:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
to quote the Guardian:

The decision and the manner in which it was delivered caught his negotiating partners off guard, not least as it came within hours of Tsipras's return from a Brussels summit of EU leaders on Friday, where he had private talks with German chancellor Angela Merkel and President Hollande of France.

At their post-summit press conferences, neither of the two sent any signals of the bombshell from Athens. Neither did summit chair Donald Tusk.
EU ministers refuse bailout extension for Greece as referendum looms
Read more

Some eurozone ministers called Tsipras's decision "bizarre" and said they were mystified about what he was trying to do.

And that was not the first time. You don't negotiate that way - the point of negotiation is that participants at the very minimum clearly understand each others positions.

Remember when Schaueble traveled home from that first(?) Syriza summit in late afternoon, having been assured that important points were settled and only the details were still worked on? Hours later Syriza walked back from the whole thing.

by DerFriederich on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 09:21:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You don't negotiate that way

This was a reaction to a ultimatum, which is no negotiation at all. In the previous two weeks, the Eurogroup and the Council rejected Greek proposals without any substantial debate. You don't negotiate that way.

Syriza summit

?

Hours later Syriza walked back from the whole thing.

With good reason:

Paul Mason: Schauble nixed text seeking to `amend' bailout programme |thetoc.gr

The Financial Times claimed that both the Greek Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis and Deputy PM Yannis Dragasakis had agreed to sign the draft but that the Greek Prime Minister had pulled the plug at the last minute. It is also claimed that the German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schauble left the meeting believing that a deal had been struck. That version of events has been rejected as thoroughly inaccurate by the Greek government.

Now Channel 4's Paul Mason has provided another account according to which it was Schauble's inflexibility as opposed to Tsipras's that was chiefly to blame for the non-agreement.

Citing an 'authoritative Greek source', Mason says that the Greek delegation had agreed to a draft that called for the Greek program to be `amended and extended and successfully concluded'. However Schauble refused to entertain the thought of amending the Greek program and demanded the word be removed. That resulted in the next draft text - the version rejected outright by the Greek delegation and leaked to the Financial Times.

This was neither the first nor the last time Stasi 2.0 played this game.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 09:50:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And, of course, the main problem with this conservative obsession about proper behaviour is not its utter hypocrisy, but that it ignores the real issue: that the 'reforms' the creditors want to enforce (in denial of democracy) are unworkable and have been proven unworkable, at least for the goals publicly claimed (return to growth, debt sustainability).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 10:02:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This was in February, too:

Greece deal is first step on the road back to austerity | Business | The Guardian

The rightwing orthodoxy that dominates thinking in Brussels has asserted itself over the hapless Greeks. A deal that allows the eurozone policymakers, the International Monetary Fund and the government of Athens to keep talking next week is the first stage in a clampdown on anti-austerity sentiment.

That much was clear from the statements coming out of Brussels, not least those from Wolfgang Schäuble, Germany's veteran finance minister, who indulged himself with some patronising comments to show where the power lies. "Being in government is a date with reality, and reality is often not as nice as a dream," was the quip he delivered with a smile, one that is usually omitted from diplomacy school.



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 10:36:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A last quip about the indignation, something fellow ET blogger dvx wrote back in 2008, commenting some of Schäuble's defences of his Stasi 2.0 proposals:

dvx:

I know they say that patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel, but after watching the global neocons I'm starting to think it's indignation.


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 10:45:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The whole point of these negotiations is that Greece wants more money from the creditors, preferably as gift since they can't even afford their existing debt.

That is a position of extraordinary weakness, and Tsipras and his merry band seem to not accept that.

That is the reality Schaeuble spoke of. And he was right. But instead of folding early, Syriza raised the bets, and now the Creditors are calling the cards.

It was always clear there would be a point where the Greek bluff would be called. Now it's (hopefully) come.

What did you expect?

by DerFriederich on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 11:03:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"The whole point of these negotiations is that Greece wants more money from the creditors,..."

Interesting. Where does Greece demand "more money from the creditors"? Care to explain?

by Katrin on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 11:59:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Right now. Always.

There is not a single Greek proposal that does not contain demands for fresh money. Yes, Varoufakis has said he does not want new debt - but all his suggestions involve actions that result in money flowing unilaterally from Euro countries to Greece - investment programs, ELA, EFSM/ESM.

And that list even ignores the fact that debt restructuring, quantitative easing, interest deferment and moratorium and similar actions also represent a massive financial transfer to Greece.

by DerFriederich on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 08:38:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, when you insist on running persistent current account surpluses, you will need to make unilateral transfers to the people funding your current account surpluses with their current account deficits.

This is a fairly fundamental macroeconomic identity: Capital and current account must sum to zero.

Blaming Varoufakis for being unable to make six plus one and a half equal zero does not display the requisite understanding of elementary arithmetics to run a kindergarden, nevermind a currency union.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jun 29th, 2015 at 12:02:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Of your list only investment programmes could possibly meet the definition of "more money" to Greece, but only if one is unaware that thanks to Toika imposed austerity Greece cannot access EU funds for exactly that purpose.

If you believe that the ECB doing their job and maintaining Greek banks' liquidity constitutes a credit to Greece, well perhaps you might want to buy a nice unicorn or two?

Do you by any chance believe that the money that the Greeks try to get at their ATMs was your money? No, it is their own money.

by Katrin on Mon Jun 29th, 2015 at 02:59:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Greece does not want new money. No new loans. Just refinancing of the outstanding ones, or if that feels too much like new loans, extending the maturities of the outstanding loans. Like the IMF has suggested.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Sun Jul 5th, 2015 at 10:31:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Greece wants more money from the creditors

Nope, Greece wants a viable economic future, in contrast to the constant depression offered my austerity. In the best of worlds, this would have included debt relief and fiscal transfers (like the one German states receive) for a Keynesian stimulus programme, so that the remaining debt can be served in the future. Schäuble rejected that back in February and insisted on the continuation of the system in which Greece gets money to give it back to its creditors and is forced to implement unworkable 'reforms'.

That is a position of extraordinary weakness

It's not that one-sided.

Remember that the first bailout of Greece was in reality a bailout of Greece's irresponsible non-Greek private lenders (a typical socialisation of the risks). In the time since, the creditors had three, at times contradictory motivations: (1) keep up the fantasy that there won't be a default and thus no loss of taxpayer money, (2) force the governments of Greece to implement anti-democratic and nonsensical economic "reforms", (3) keep others in line.

If the creditors had been half-way rational and only considered the finances, they would have weighted which solution would have meant the smallest default. But they were more concerned with political loss of face, and may end up now with much greater write-offs than one they could have agreed upon by accepting any of the Greek proposals over the past six months. Except people like you won't ask this question, and will accept their excuse that these big write-offs are Tsipras's fault rather than a testament to their totally botched negotiation.

I should note that while I can well imagine that Schäuble planned for this outcome for months, I still don't think that most other players on the creditor did. I think most of them have miscalculated in a criminal way: hoping that they can get Tsipras to abandon his voters with an offer to 'join the club', or trigger a split in Syriza, or scare them into submission or trigger new elections.

That is the reality Schaeuble spoke of.

So now you won't discuss how this is no way to conduct a negotiation. Double standards, how typical.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 01:05:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why on earth are reforms "unworkable"?

Efficient tax collection?

A 21st century grade well functioning public administration?

Corruption at Swedish, not Swaziland levels?
(Yes, I know. Italy. Romania.)

A well managed public service with a minimum of political patronage?

A public service size commensurate with the financial ability of Greek society?

A judical system that provides timely and workable resolution of business and administrative disputes comparably to other EMU members?

I could go on. Nothing of that is rocket science - it "just" requires good government.

by DerFriederich on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 09:03:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Regarding tax collection, corruption, political patronage, judicial system - the difference is in local oligarchies. Syriza is much more serious (though not much able) to address the Greek oligarchy than the troika institutions.
by das monde on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 09:34:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Efficient tax collection?
In the Greek proposal, vetoed by the IMF.

A 21st century grade well functioning public administration?
In the Greek proposal.

Corruption at Swedish, not Swaziland levels?
In the Greek proposal.

A well managed public service with a minimum of political patronage?
In the Greek proposal.

A public service size commensurate with the financial ability of Greek society?
Pure sophistry, since the "financial ability" of a society is decided by political convention: The marginal cost of printing more money is zero, so sovereign financing can never be a scarce resource. Only a political weapon wielded by those with a pathological dislike of the public sector.

A judical system that provides timely and workable resolution of business and administrative disputes comparably to other EMU members?
Already in the Greek proposal. Unless you meant to append "in favor of the businesses." In which case you can shove it where the sun won't shine.

When every substantive proposal on your list is either uncontroversial or in fact the Greek position that the Troika is rejecting, it may be a sign that you need to maybe go read the Greek proposals, instead of Stasi 2.0's lies about them in FAZ.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jun 29th, 2015 at 12:11:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL. Except for the red herring about the size of the public service, those are not the parts the Greek proposals differed from the troika proposals.

Unworkable reforms are ones that claim to put Greece back on the path to growth and debt sustainability, all the while depressing consumption and thereby tax income. That is, ones where expectation and reality diverges this spectacularly:

And let's not forget that these policies are also unworkable because the social destruction they bring (I bet you haven't read the FAZ link Katrin provided) is bound to trigger political results that undo them. The Syriza–ANEL government is already such a result, but if fools like Dijsselbloem get what they wanted in collapsing the government, the next one will be the Nazis.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Jun 29th, 2015 at 06:06:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
DerFriedrich, ignoring that Tsipras/Syriza has actually, or is actually, addressing your concerns, you seem to be missing a very huge point.

Greece has had decades of entrenched corruption from the oligarchy, including during the last five years of acquiescence to the Troika. And you seriously expect that corruption to be undone within six months of a totally new government?

You must truly be an honored Professor of Political Science, Economics, and Fantasy Role-play, and Yurp seriously needs someone of your understanding to fix this mess quickly. Please help us.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Mon Jun 29th, 2015 at 06:30:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, when making agreements with ND- an PASOK-led governments earlier, why haven't agreements been torn up on the basis that the same elites responsible for past corruption and mismanagement don't guarantee success for any reform?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Jun 29th, 2015 at 06:38:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This isn't a game.

Schaeuble didn't want to leave a hole in the text which Greece could use to smuggle more of their demands in later on.

That's his position, and he made it clear at the time.

This seems to be one of those word vs word situations. And I do not trust the Greek version.

by DerFriederich on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 10:54:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So Schäuble briefing that he had left the meeting believing a deal had been struck was a lie?

If so, what was the intent behind that lie, other than to smear the Greeks (once again) in the mass media?

You're right, it isn't a game.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 11:16:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think it was a lie. I think the Greek side claiming otherwise lies.

Ultimately, we won't find out one way or the other.

by DerFriederich on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 11:21:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You have already been disproven in this. When Peter Spiegel ran with the initial Schauble story in the FT, he was accused of being a waterboy for the EWG head. He took issue with that accusation. But once the alternate document was handed to him (presumably by the Greek side) he had to admit that he was taken advantage of. This lie has already been uncovered and shown for what it is by the very correspondent who blasted the Greeks in the first place. so you are incorrect that we can't know when we do know.
by Upstate NY on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 11:51:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So:

  1. A draft was made up which included the notion of "amending" the Greek programme.

  2. The Greek delegation agreed with this draft.

  3. Schäuble objected and demanded that the language concerning "amendment" be struck out.

  4. He then left the unfinished meeting, assuming that the Greeks were in agreement with his all-the-same major and essential edit.

It sounds like Schäuble has little experience of all-night EU negotiation marathons. Perhaps Germany should be represented by someone with a little more gravitas.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 11:57:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It sounds like Schäuble has little experience of all-night EU negotiation marathons. Perhaps Germany should be represented by someone with a little more gravitas.
.

That is ... priceless.
"Ohne Worte" ... as we say in Germany.

by DerFriederich on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 08:07:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed, one is left speechless by the grace and patience that the Greek team has shown in dealing with a bumbling fool with delusions of adequacy like Stasi 2.0.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 11:57:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed. I remember a conversation last year with a fellow LSE European Studies alumni who happened to be Franco-German and bending over backwards to paint Germany as the ultimate ununderstood, underloved good guys. According to him, they so wanted to do right as they loved us (he meant mostly the French, but also the rest of Europe) but they desperately needed to be told that we too loved them and confrontation would always fail because of that.

I retorted with some Weidmann and Schauble quotes and actions and he replied that "well, yes, of course, agec has caught up with Schauble and he is now rather senile".
As for Weidmann "well, sure, he is an insane sociopaths, but he is just one person in 18" (it was indeed 18 at the time).

Right, you may pause. With both the head of the Bundesbank and the finance minister identified as senile or sociopathically insane, adding a prime minister who is ready to do ANYTHING, including enforcing policies that causes dozens of daily deaths in Greece alone, if it helps her score domestic political points, I find it hard to call the German establishment fundamentally good and loving at heart. I reckon his existential need to see France and Germany as naturally together was a key driver to want to believe so.

But the fact remained that even someone so desperate to delude himself that everything was well with the German leadership had to call Schauble senile in order to avoid seeing him as evil.

I am indeed impressed that Varoufakis managed to keep so much cool after spending so much time with that sorry excuse for a man.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Mon Jun 29th, 2015 at 04:25:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I recently ran across a bio on him with this quote:

Wolfgang Schäuble: Merkel's Euro bad cop - The Local

His biographer Peter Schütz calls him the "most honest man" he knows, "even if he's not always the most charming."

Yeah, just don't ask him about certain personal slush funds for Helmut Kohl. Or the intellectual honesty of his career as serial intellectual arsonist (spanning the subjects of immigrants, law-and-order measures and Southern European countries).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Jun 29th, 2015 at 06:18:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Afew is being tongue-in-cheek to expose the nonsense of Schäuble's faked indignation. But I am not when I call Schäuble geistiger Brandstifter. (And he's been at it at least since 2005.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Jun 29th, 2015 at 06:24:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the phrase "shooting from the hip" comes to mind, but given the circumstances, i should be banned for thinking that. And it would indeed be indecent of me, if it weren't for the damage this man causes.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin
by Crazy Horse on Mon Jun 29th, 2015 at 06:33:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We should indeed all feel sorry that Stasi 2.0 was put in a wheelchair by an assassination attempt.

It would have been ever so much better for humanity if he had been put in a morgue.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jun 29th, 2015 at 12:11:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't find this funny. And anyway there are other sociopaths who would take his place.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Jun 29th, 2015 at 03:07:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That was also true for bin Laden, but people still cheered when he bit it.

If I could trade one for the other, I'd rather have bin Laden. He was a better human being all around.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jun 29th, 2015 at 03:14:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
people still cheered when he bit it.

I found that disgusting, too.

He was a better human being all around.

Now you're going redstar.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Jun 29th, 2015 at 03:18:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Schaeuble didn't want to leave a hole in the text which Greece could use to smuggle more of their demands in later on.
And that would have been perfectly reasonable if final settlement had been on the table at the time.

But final settlement is the one thing the Troika persistently refuses to put on the table. It's always demands for permanent concessions in exchange for nothing more than continuing the negotiations.

That is quite literally on the first page of the "bad faith tactics" chapter of most negotiation handbooks. And Greece gave the textbook response: Pointed out that it was a bad-faith tactic, ignored the obviously bad-faith demands, and re-anchored with their own counter.

For someone who criticizes the Greek negotiation team's tactics as much as you do, you seem to have a pretty poor grasp of even fairly elementary negotiation theory.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 12:26:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You don't negotiate that way - the point of negotiation is that participants at the very minimum clearly understand each others positions.
I hope you're not quitting your day job to apply for a position as negotiator.

Because that absolutely is the way you negotiate if you are presented with a proposal that is worse than your BATNA: State politely but firmly that the proposal on the table is not even worth discussing. Re-anchor the discussion with your own proposal. If the other guy persists in his nonsense, leave the room and execute on your BATNA.

Improving the other guy's understanding of the situation and exploring options for its mutually gainful resolution is absolutely a valid negotiating gambit. But only when there is room for mutual gain through negotiations and the other guy shows interest in negotiating.

Once it becomes clear that you are going to need to execute on your BATNA, you don't owe the other guy anything. If your BATNA is improved by keeping him in the dark (and it usually is), then you keep him in the dark.

Remember when Schaueble traveled home from that first(?) Syriza summit in late afternoon, having been assured that important points were settled and only the details were still worked on? Hours later Syriza walked back from the whole thing.
[Citation Needed]

And not from Stasi 2.0 himself.

Because, and there really isn't any parliamentary way to say this, he's been spending the last ten years doing a stellar impression of a pathologically dishonest sociopath.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 11:26:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have difficultis with the timeline

"The finale came on Friday with a last offer from the creditors - the European commission, European Central Bank and International Monetary Fund - which represented a take-it-or-leave-it ultimatum, revamping the pensions system, creating a new VAT regime, slashing the defence budget, and cutting proposed taxes on business in return for a five-month bailout extension worth €15.5bn (£11 bn).

Financial experts from both sides were still negotiating in Brussels late on Friday when the call came through from Athens ordering them to quit, Dijsselbloem said. Tsipras then went on television to announce the plebiscite."

How does that fit with:

"Three things happened Friday. 1. Greece had a proposal that converged closely with the Institutions, except for $200m extra cut for military. 2. Institutions had a proposal that walked back increase on hotels from 6% VAT to 23%. 3. The Eurogroup not only ripped up the Greek proposal, but also the Institution's proposal, and then it gave Greece an ultimatum: extend the current MoU for 6 month, but without the requisite funding to see your debt repayments, or your banking solvency"

Is the take or leave it ultimatum supposed to be 2.?

And neither the greek proposal nor any ripping up is mentioned in the guardian narrative.

by IM on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 01:42:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It fits if the Guardian is not bothering to distinguish between the Eurogroup and the Troika.

Maybe we should get a ((guardian)) macro to complement the ((*france24)) macro.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 02:56:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Though I guess the lack of distinction is in this case forgivable.

Because the very fact that such a distinction is even required demonstrates that the creditors cannot be taken seriously: Not only are they speaking with two faces, the faces aren't even aligned on what they want.

So really it matters very little in practice which of Janus' faces made which proposals; it is now clear that neither had any mandate to sign a binding final settlement.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 02:57:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Remember when Schaueble traveled home from that first(?) Syriza summit in late afternoon, having been assured that important points were settled and only the details were still worked on? Hours later Syriza walked back from the whole thing.

I don't "remember" any such thing, since I live all of my time living outside of the German information bubble (and most of it living outside the US informatiom bubble), so I don't "remember" events based on the spin given by a politician that is a party to negotiations.

Some eurozone ministers called Tsipras's decision "bizarre" and said they were mystified about what he was trying to do.

If they live in an alternative universe where they (or their minders) believe that the ultimatum they were presenting was less bad for the Greeks than default, no wonder they were mystified by what he is trying to do ... to wit, trying to get a firm proposal from the Eurogroup / Troika melange that is superior to default.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 07:37:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Regarding the mindset of the MSM, here is a quote from the correspondent of the supposedly left-wing Guardian:

#Greek PM #AlexisTsipras "our only fear is fear itself" - FDR once again spicing up the otherwise wooden speeches of leftwing pols


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 04:22:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
DoDo:
How do you embed to Tweets on ET?

Copy the embed code supplied by Twitter. Paste into ET comment.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">"Lecturing" is a common excuse for shrugging off well-supported arguments that participants are unable to refute. <a href="https://twitter.com/RaoulRuparel">@RaoulRuparel</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/OpenEurope">@OpenEurope</a></p>— Dimitris Yannopoulos (@DimitrisY) <a href="https://twitter.com/DimitrisY/status/614776177782333440">June 27, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Strip out:

lang="xx" from blockquote and from first paragraph instruction;

dir="xxx" from p ;

entire final script line.

So it looks like this:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>"Lecturing" is a common excuse for shrugging off well-supported arguments that participants are unable to refute. <a href="https://twitter.com/RaoulRuparel">@RaoulRuparel</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/OpenEurope">@OpenEurope</a></p>— Dimitris Yannopoulos (@DimitrisY) <a href="https://twitter.com/DimitrisY/status/614776177782333440">June 27, 2015</a></blockquote>

Then post and hope it works.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 08:11:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Can this be added to the user guide?-  not that I'm a twitterer...

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 10:25:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 03:23:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There may not be a bank run, but even if they institute capital controls, they can surely make it to Sunday without collapsing.

AND, the main worry would be whether New Democracy can oust Syriza by proving a referendum is unconstitutional.

I think the idea that the previous bailout is no longer on offer from the Eurogroup is rather irrelevant.

The referendum can easily ask the question: Should Greece request to the Institutions that it be offered an extension of the current memorandum?

by Upstate NY on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 01:16:33 PM EST
Hmmm. There is no bank run?

Huffpo: Greece Bank Run Empties Over A Third Of ATMs Of Cash

They'll surely make it to next Sunday?

1.6b to IMF due on Tuesday
Pensions and wages due on Wednesday (and rumor has it the government is seriously short there, too)

That looks like a big "maybe" to me.

by DerFriederich on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 09:52:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Looks like a sensational headline to me.

Greece Bank Run Empties Over A Third Of ATMs Of Cash

About 35 percent of the ATM network - some 2,000 out of the 5,500 ATMs across Greece - ran out of euro banknotes at one point during the day and were being replenished, the bankers said. Banks were working in coordination with the central bank to keep the network fed with cash, they said.

Replenishing ATMs usually takes one to two hours per ATM, leading to the long lines, one banking source said.

Around 600 million euros was withdrawn from the banking system on Saturday, one senior banker at one of Greece's four big lenders told Reuters. A second banker estimated the outflow at more than 500 million euros.

Though that was below the level of over 1 billion euros seen on some days over the past two weeks, the figure was almost exclusively from ATM withdrawals, where the average daily limit of cash that can be taken out is 600 to 700 euros, bankers said.

It also sounds like you are wishing for a bank run.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 10:09:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Like most Germans (who put the "United States" in my profile?) I just wish this thing to finally end, one way or another.  

Yeah - I'd much prefer it to end in a more orderly fashion - a negotiated, controlled Grexit, a Greek wonder plan that puts an end to all financial subidies for good, whatever you can imagine - but end it must.

But apparently a chaotic end with bank crashes, fear and loathing is what Tsipras wants, and so it might be exactly what he gets.

by DerFriederich on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 11:15:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
DerFriederich:
who put the "United States" in my profile?

You did. There is a choice of countries when you sign up. If you're not paying attention, you get the default, which is (fortunately or unfortunately, according to your point of view) the US.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 11:20:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
who put the "United States" in my profile?

You can change your country under profile then settings.

by generic on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 11:41:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you are looking for a (relatively) orderly end to the crises, see here.

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 12:17:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I just wish this thing to finally end

So, why not accept Greece's last proposal? This is silly.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 12:24:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
what was the last proposal?
by IM on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 01:51:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you want to take Juncker's word for it, you can get it from the latest European Commission press release: Information from the European Commission on the latest draft proposals in the context of negotiations with Greece (28 June 2015)
neither this latest version of the document, nor an outline of a comprehensive deal could be formally finalised and presented to the Eurogroup due to the unilateral decision of the Greek authorities to abandon the process on the evening of 26 June 2015.
Note that the attachment is a document detailing the "prior actions" required of the Greek government, but there is no "outline of the comprehensive deal"
that would have included not just the measures to be jointly agreed, but would also have addressed future financing needs and the sustainability of the Greek debt. It also included support for a Commission-led package for a new start for jobs and growth in Greece, boosting recovery of and investment in the real economy, which was discussed and endorsed by the College of Commissioners on Wednesday 24 June 2015.


A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 02:11:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
that must the latest institution proposal.

On some points they shifted to the greek position:

- The new VAT system will: (i) unify the rates at a standard 23 percent rate, which will include restaurants and catering, and a reduced 13 percent rate for basic food, energy, hotels, and water (excluding sewage), and a super-reduced rate of 6 percent for pharmaceuticals, books, and theater;

Namely hotels and energy and the existence of the third rate.

The planned raise of the corporation tax looks also like a concession.

On the whole this can't the greek proposal. To illustrate that on the pension chapter:

"Effective from July 1, 2015 the authorities will phase-in reforms that would deliver estimated permanent savings of ¼-½ percent of GDP in 2015 and 1 percent of GDP on a full year basis in 2016 and thereafter by adopting legislation to:"

Not only is the 1% of GDP in 2016 very ambitious and very far from even the last greek proposal but the numbers for 2015 - savings of 0.25% to 0.5%, starting July 1th (!) are simply impossible to achieve.

That is the general problem. A well run government would be hard to put to achieve all the proposed changes of the pension chapter until January First, 2016. Together with all the other chapters that should be implemented until January First, 2016 this simply not doable.  

by IM on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 03:17:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
(who put the "United States" in my profile?)
That's the deffault. You are welcome to edit your profile.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 01:19:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's more like a bank walk.

A bank walk is good, though: Going all-cash just prior to Greece defaulting on the European clearing system and converting everything left in the banks to Drachma is a net transfer from the Bundesbank to Greece.

Too little, too late, but the right direction.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 11:39:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Greek crisis deepens further as bailout extension rejected - live updates | Business | The Guardian

Helena Smith, our Athens correspondent, has more details of Tsipras's call to Merkel and Hollande today.

Tsipras apparently told both leaders:

"Democracy is of the highest order in Greece and the referendum will take place regardless of the Euro group decision."

NikiKitsantonis @NikiKitsantonis

Greek gov source: Tsipras spoke w Merkel, Hollande, said whatever Eurogroup decision is Greek people will have oxygen nxt wk, will survive!



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 01:18:15 PM EST
Greek crisis deepens further as bailout extension rejected - live updates | Business | The Guardian

Helena Smith our correspondent writes:

Courtesy of Mega News we are now learning that Tsipras' chat with both leaders was far from cordial. The Greek prime minister, responding to Merkel's protestations that the referendum would ultimately boil down to a choice "between the euro and drachma" is reported to have said:

"No it isn't.

This is the birthplace of democracy. We are a sovereign country and will not be told what question to pose in this referendum. The referendum will take place regardless of whatever the decision the Eurogroup takes."



*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 02:01:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What does that even mean?

I mean, seriously? What other than GFY is he trying to transport by this remark?

Does he think Merkel doesn't know he ultimately has control over what his government does (that is, unless he loses his majority, which isnt too likely at this stage).

That woman tries to talk sense into him, and he behaves like an unruly teenager.

by DerFriederich on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 07:19:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But
the referendum would ultimately boil down to a choice "between the euro and drachma"
is wrong. How is that "talking sense"?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 07:32:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Three things happened Friday. 1. Greece had a proposal that converged closely with the Institutions, except for $200m extra cut for military. 2. Institutions had a proposal that walked back increase on hotels from 6% VAT to 23%. 3. The Eurogroup not only ripped up the Greek proposal, but also the Institution's proposal, and then it gave Greece an ultimatum: extend the current MoU for 6 month, but without the requisite funding to see your debt repayments, or your banking solvency, through. Greece immediately recognized the Eurgroup charade as not serious. Why? Because, as Migeru wrote today in his interpretation of Varoufakis's latest press conference (V's point #2) going 6 more months with no funding and a bank recap would have required Greece to apply for the EFSM, which would have ended with Greece ceding all legislation rights (and sovereignty). Clearly, this was a Eurogroup gambit deserving no respect, and since Merkel was following Schauble's ridiculous lead, Tsipras accorded her with the serious that she deserved.
by Upstate NY on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 10:53:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What other than GFY is he trying to transport by this remark?
Is there anything he should be saying to QueenOfEurope other than GFY?

Does he think Merkel doesn't know he ultimately has control over what his government does
She hasn't been acting like it. She's been acting like she has control over what his government does.

Hence the propriety of telling her to go fuck herself.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 12:14:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What does that even mean?

It means Merkel has no right to tell Tsipras that the referendum is about choosing between the Euro and the drachma. He could have added that Merkel and the rest have no rightful means to push Greece out of the Euro.

That woman tries to talk sense into him, and he behaves like an unruly teenager.

This is a typical example of the utter arrogance of anti-Greece conservatives. I am reminded of an incident in Hungary's parliament in late 1990, when Viktor Orbán (then still a liberal) told "The government lied!" and a coservative MP reacted saying, "Such undignified speech doesn't belong into parliament! It belongs to Bucharest!"

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 05:01:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What will the ECB do now?
by IM on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 01:56:34 PM EST
cut off Emergency Liquidity Assistance to Greek banks, thus pulling the plug?

When Greece defaults on its loans, all their IOUs become worthless over night, and so Greek ELA and Target2 participation becomes impossible.

by DerFriederich on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 02:40:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's a little more complicated than that. Greek banks only have about €23bn in lending to the Greek government, and €30bn to 40bn in deferred tax assets.

However, Greece has not defaulted on any of its loans yet so if the ECB pulls the plug this week it will have to be on the basis of failure to successfully complete the 2nd "programme", not on a loan default. I'm pretty sure the Greek government will find the €2bn it needs to pay the IMF on June 30 so as to avoid being accused of any funny stuff before the referendum.

I just blogged the following elsewhere: Varoufakis on ESM bank recapitalization

It's looking likely that the ECB Governing Council may withdraw emergency liquidity assistance (ELA) from the Greek banks as early as Wednesday (the current "second programme" expires at the end of Tuesday), if not earlier (though I think it could also freeze ELA now and withdraw it on Wednesday). At that point, the Single Supervisory Mechanism could declare the four major Greek banks insolvent and set into motion the procedures foreseen by the Bank Recovery and Resolution Directive. Given the insolvency of the Greek state, "recovery" would involve ESM recapitalisation as outlined in the FAQ above. But, as Varoufakis hints, the creditors would attempt to impose policy conditionality on the Greek state, at which point the Greek government would refuse recapitalisation. This would leave resolution (i.e., liquidation) as the only solution for the Greek banks. And it is quite likely that resolution would involve a bail-in of Greek depositors as Greek banks have very little by way of long-term funding other than time deposits. If the ECB withdraws emergency liquidity from the Greek banks on Wednesday, a decision to wind down the Greek banks could be taken as early as Friday, two days before the referendum.


A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 02:58:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Effectively, the ECB is the conduit to control all your politics. Each nation state that has troubled banks, that are recapped by the EFSM--even nations that are not in a bailout like Spain--effectively relinquish total sovereignty. For instance, if Austria uses this mechanism for a bank recap of its failed banks, then Austria no longer has any say over national policies. And these dictats all come through the banking system. It is a much more elegant way of clarifying the relationship between the banks and democracy.
by Upstate NY on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 03:05:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When Greece defaults on its loans, all their IOUs become worthless over night, and so Greek ELA and Target2 participation becomes impossible.

On the contrary, there is no legal way to foreclose on Greek access to the Target2 clearing facility, short of resolving the Greek banks, which the ECBuBa does not want to do.

The ECBuBa can, of course, refuse to clear transactions without resolving the banks, since a central clearing facility is not something you can just go without for a few months while prosecuting the Draghi for treason. But that would be the ECBuBa defaulting on its commitments, not Greece.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 04:42:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Target2 is the mechanism through which controls on electronic cross-border transactions would be enforced. This can happen on a Greek government decision implemented by the Bank of Greece, or it can be implemented by the Eurosystem of its own accord.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 05:37:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you are wrong here.

Target requires participants to cover any deficits with collateral. A bankrupt Greece can not provide such collateral; thus its access to Target will be severely curtailed or blocked.

Certainly Greece's ability to (ab)use Target as a stealth source of credit will be cut off.

by DerFriederich on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 06:47:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Target requires participants to cover any deficits with collateral.
That's what Hans Werner Sinn would like to be true, but that doesn't make it true.

Target2 is the payment clearing system, nothing more.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 07:31:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmmm.

Apparently I read the this guideline of the ECB(pdf) wrong, since its chapter 6 seems to state the opposite.

by DerFriederich on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 10:10:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The ECBuBa has long had a rather selective interpretation of the relevant treaties.

Starting with unSinn's blatant lies about the legality of secondary market purchases.

Fortunately it is the Court, not the ECBuBa, which is the ultimate arbitrator of the treaties. Unfortunately, the Court is far too slow for the victims of the ECBuBa's serial econocide.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 11:52:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You just linked to the guidelines for open market operations, which are collateralised.

That is not what Target2 is.

If you can't tell the difference between Refinancing Operations and the payment and clearing system...

If you do a textual search for Target or Target2 in the "guidelines" or "general documentation" you'll see every mention of Target is in the nature of infrastructure underlying refinancing operations. The proper documents to look at would be those enumerated here:

TARGET the Trans-European Automated Real-time Gross settlement Express Transfer system, as defined in Guideline ECB/2005/16
TARGET2 the Trans-European Automated Real-time Gross settlement Express Transfer system, as defined in Guideline ECB/2007/2


A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 01:16:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You just linked to the guidelines for open market operations, which are collateralised.

All of them? Outright transactions (section 3.2) and debt certificates (section 3.3), too?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 02:04:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Outright transactions are asset purchases in the open market. Obviously those are not collateralised.

ECB Debt Certificates are Eurobonds by another name.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 02:21:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Proper link.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 01:17:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Certainly Greece's ability to (ab)use Target as a stealth source of credit will be cut off.
This raises an interesting linguistic conundrum: Is it "abuse" to exploit a loophole to force a fake central bank to do the job of a real central bank?

Of course the question is of purely academic interest, as the ECBuBa will almost certainly continue its trend of extralegal extremism by attempting to use denial of payment clearing to facilitate a coup d'etat against Greece. As with the slow-motion genocide in Gaza, the fact that it is blatantly criminal matters very little to the facts on the ground, but as a matter of historical propriety I think we should all acknowledge the fact that it is blatantly illegal.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 12:21:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You have to understand that derFriedrich lives in the parallel universe of the german media. He wil not understand that the function of a central bank is to provide a payment clearing system. In germany the euro is considered a fixed rate exchange mechanism not areal currency union.
by rz on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 12:59:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL. For one, those terms ultimately mean the same. Money itself is a (somewhat) fixed exchange mechanism.

And second, the rules of any money transfer mean you have to put something of value in on the one side to get something of value out at the other side.

Insolvent Greek banks can not do that; thus their access will be severely curtailed or completely blocked.

by DerFriederich on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 10:16:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is precisely nothing in that comment which is actually true.

Rather than rewrite what has already been discussed many times, I will refer you to the first subthread to this comment, this comment, and this thread.

Or if you would like more details than the high-level overview above, consider this, this, and this.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 12:50:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, its NOT the job of a real Central Bank according to EMU rules is to supply the government with income.

So if Greek banks use a loophole in the system to basically get additional credit and then turn that credit over to the government by buying its treasury bills, I'd consider that abuse.

It's also abusive per se, because in the case of a (very really possible) Grexit the Target2 balance will turn into Greek debt to the other ECB member banks - and the whole shebang is about NOT giving Greece more credit.

by DerFriederich on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 11:36:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, the EMU rules are objectively insane, so finding and exploiting loopholes in them is both inevitable and praiseworthy.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 11:47:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is a major reason why the Greek negotiating position is actually much stronger than it is generally portrayed. Exiting the Euro would obviously leave major unrecoverable debts. Which is why the Troika are now vigorously rowing back on their ultimata, while equally vigorously denying that such ultimata ever existed.

A relatively happy ending for all is still on the cards (happy, as in better than mutually-assured destruction).

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Mon Jun 29th, 2015 at 06:43:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sine you wrote the above optimistic reading, Juncker, Hollande, Renzi, Merkel and Gabriel gave obviously coordinated statements that show they still believe they could get their way by blackmail, all claiming that the referendum is a decision about staying in the Euro.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Jun 29th, 2015 at 03:11:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And that is being given dramatic echo, as if it came from Moses carrying the tablets down from the mountain, in such as The Guardian.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 29th, 2015 at 03:27:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think this is much more dangerous than it looks: if the blackmail fails, it could form the rhetorical basis for an extra-legal de-facto expulsion (in which case Greece should sue whatever it does financially). If that comes to pass, the crime of Hollande, Renzi and Gabriel as enablers is the greater.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Jun 29th, 2015 at 03:34:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Greece threatens top court action to block Grexit - Telegraph

Greece has threatened to seek a court injunction against the EU institutions, both to block the country's expulsion from the euro and to halt asphyxiation of the banking system.

"The Greek government will make use of all our legal rights," said the finance minister, Yanis Varoufakis.

"We are taking advice and will certainly consider an injunction at the European Court of Justice. The EU treaties make no provision for euro exit and we refuse to accept it. Our membership is not negotiable," he told the Daily Telegraph.

(...)  Any request for an injunction against EU bodies at the European Court would be an unprecedented development, further complicating the crisis.

Greek officials said they are seriously considering suing the European Central Bank itself for freezing emergency liquidity for the Greek banks at €89bn. It turned down a request from Athens for a €6bn increase to keep pace with deposit flight.

This effectively pulls the plug on the Greek banking system. Syriza claims that this is a prima facie breach of the ECB's legal duty to maintain financial stability. "How can they justify setting off a run on the Greek banking system?" said one official.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Mon Jun 29th, 2015 at 04:11:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To start with, Draghi was meeting one-on-one with Varoufakis immediately after the press conferences.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 02:41:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Another point for my

"Draghi is still the least worst" theory.

by IM on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 02:50:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree with that totally. I am often very angry at the ECB because they are not doing what I think they should be doing. But then I remember: It could be way worse!
by rz on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 02:59:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
LOL at the New Democracy leader wannabe. Apparently, Siemens Greece rep.
by Upstate NY on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 02:15:12 PM EST
Martin Schulz just said something like that: If the result of the referendum is "yes", there is still the possibility of an agreement.

On the other hand the EP has no input in these decisions anyway, so...

by IM on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 03:15:08 PM EST
Varoufakis today:
We explained to our partners also that this government is absolutely determined to find a solution, an accommodation with our partners, that the Greek people on 5th July will  be asked to agree or not to agree with the Institutions' proposal. That leaves open the possibility of negotiations through the night and a day and a night and a day ahead of us that would improve the institutions' proposal, in which case our government's recommendation would change. Instead of recommending to the electors that they should vote against this agreement we would then change to a `yes' vote recommendation.
So that would agree with Martin Schulz. However,
Let me say that the refusal of the Eurogroup today to endorse our request for an extension of this agreement for a few days, a couple of weeks, so as to allow the Greek people to deliver their verdict on the Institutions' proposal - especially given that there is a very high probability that Greeks will go against our recommendation and vote in favour of the Institutions' proposal - that refusal will certainly damage the credibility of the Eurogroup as a democratic union of partner member states, and I'm very much afraid that that damage will be permanent.
As to Martin Schulz, he as recently as last week said something to the effect of the Greeks getting on his nerves, so he's trying to have his cake and eat it, too.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 03:26:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
he's trying to have his cake and eat it, too.

High-viscosity Vorsprung durch Teknik

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 11:08:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 03:30:21 PM EST
We stress that the expiry of the EFSF financial arrangement with Greece, without immediate prospects of a follow-up arrangement, will require measures by the Greek authorities, with the technical assistance of the institutions, to safeguard the stability of the Greek financial system. The Eurogroup will monitor very closely the economic and financial situation in Greece and the Eurogroup stands ready to reconvene to take appropriate decisions where needed, in the interest of Greece as euro area member.
Oh, and
[The statement is adopted by ministers from the euro area Member States, except Greece].
At least they have the decency to call themselves an "informal ministerial meeting".

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 04:12:48 PM EST
Greeks Line Up at Banks and Drain ATMs as Tsipras Calls Vote
... "I'm here to take my mother's pension out before the machine runs out of cash," said Erato Spyropoulou, who was standing in a line of about eight people at one of National Bank of Greece SA's ATMs. "It's very worrying what's happening because people don't know what they're being asked to vote for. It's the last nail in Greece's coffin." ...

... About 100 people had lined up at a Piraeus Bank branch at a central Athens street before it opened. Some said they had waited for about three hours. Once word got out that the bank wouldn't open, one elderly woman fainted.

As an ambulance pulled by to take her away, others spewed vitriol at everyone from the Greek prime minister to Germany.

"Tsipras said he would turn things around, but things are only going to get worse," said Stavros, a 61-year-old retired sailor, who was lining up to withdraw his pension. He said he was initially planning to go to the bank on Monday but decided to line up on Saturday when he heard about the government's referendum plans.

He said he won't be able to pay his mortgage if the banking system doesn't open on Monday.



Point n'est besoin d'espérer pour entreprendre, ni de réussir pour persévérer. - Charles le Téméraire
by marco on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 05:09:39 PM EST
Reading these media reports, it appears as if correspondents set up camp to report a bank run and are annoyed that it didn't happen yet.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 05:18:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
has already happened

Point n'est besoin d'espérer pour entreprendre, ni de réussir pour persévérer. - Charles le Téméraire
by marco on Mon Jun 29th, 2015 at 07:28:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
From Daily Kos:
I'm on the Cycladic island of Kythnos, which is 2-3 hours by ferry from Athens [...]

Islanders will be very much effected by the turmoil. Already, there are only about half as many ferryboats running between the islands as there were last year. One of the subsidized lines has already stopped functioning. Boat schedules are constantly being changed and routes dropped, which means all the produce and other supplies that must come by boat are  getting much less abundant, and less fresh.

The islands are in jeopardy if ferries are unable to buy fuel or on strike. Few tourists, no food to feed them if they were there, if all chaos breaks loose ...
by das monde on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 10:37:51 PM EST
UN Warns Greek Islands of Kos, Lesbos Overwhelmed by Migrants (June 10, 2015)
With tens of thousands of migrants braving the Mediterranean and Aegean Seas for a change to live in Europe, a report from Greek newspaper Ta Nea puts the dramatic situation in perspective: 407 migrants landed in Greece, mostly traveling illegally from Turkey, in the past 24 hours.

Greece's coast guard tells the newspaper that the migrants landed all over the islands closest to Turkey: Lesbos, Chios, Samos, Agathonisi and Kos. These islands mostly contain vacation resorts and are ill-equipped to provide the resources necessary to maintain these migrants, many who arrive sick or weakened by lack of food and water. The Greek coast guard has previously described itself as "overwhelmed" and "paralyzed" by efforts to find, rescue, and provide for migrants on their way to the country.

25,000 refugees pass through popular Greek island, raising tourism fears

On Greek island, migrants bring stark contrast to the usual western tourists

by das monde on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 10:44:11 PM EST
Do Not Blink, Greece
Do Not Blink, GreeceAlex Andreou . London and Athens . 27 June 2015The international game of chicken, being played out for the last five years, is reaching its climax. Alexis Tsipras has played a very bad hand extremely well, despite what doomsayers suggest

Greek Prime Minister, Alexis Tsipras, seemed to take the world by surprise last night when he announced that he would move to give a referendum to the Greek people on the debt deal currently on offer by the EU/IMF, so that they could have their say. He made it clear that he was unhappy with the offer, which he described as "unbearable" and "humiliating", and minded to reject it.

Opposition parties in Greece have moved swiftly to condemn the move. These are largely the same people who have been, for weeks, criticising Tsipras for making too many concessions during negotiations and moving towards a deal that they said was terrible.

Some international commentators have, however, noted that Eurogroup discussions are in fact continuing today and that the "team Greece" has suddenly found itself in a position of pulling a rather large ace from its sleeve which nobody thought it had.

What is the truth?

As always, it is somewhere between those two positions. Earlier in the year, I wrote that the EU and especially the IMF had overreached. For shock doctrine to function, one has to leave a majority with something to lose. A tipping point can be reached and, I believe, has in Greece where the vast majority of people sneer at the threat of things like capital controls and savings being wiped out. Quite simply because they have no capital or savings. When that happens, a nation's reaction to humiliation can be unpredictable.

It is true that the referendum leaves Greek people with the choice of types of extreme misery. Will it be an externally imposed misery or a self-determined type? But it is utterly unfair to suggest that this is a position to which Syriza has brought us. It is a position to which forty years of corruption and incompetent government and five years of economically illiterate IMF hegemony have brought us. Faced with the choice of an ever-expanding abyss of austerity, of death by a thousand paper cuts, Tsipras has opted to act as a catalyst and bring things to a quick and decisive end.

There is no doubt in my mind that in twenty years Greece will still exist and most likely be thriving. I do not say this because of glories of the past and "cradle of democracy" arguments.



'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 11:10:44 PM EST
I think the most critical time will be from 1 July to the date of the Spanish elections. If the Syriza government battles it out until then and Podemos can achieve another surge, the equation will change.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 05:17:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It looks as if Podemos (black line) will change the composition of Government in Spain one way or the other.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 10:41:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but I am not satisfied with that. For real change they should surge again and come first, especially now that the meteoritic rise of Ciudadanos (orange line) fizzled out. And I think PP's hopes are justified that a Syriza collapse would dent Podemos's numbers.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 10:54:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If Ciudadanos (orange line) doesn't hold up, then the only viable majority looks to be a PP-PSOE grand coalition. You need a 4-party system for PSOE-Podemos to be viable.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 01:09:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
By "doesn't hold up", do you mean dropping below its current poll numbers (no 4-party system), or failing to eat away more of PP's support (4-party system but possibly any two-party coalition out of the first three could have a majority)? At any rate, Podemos must come first.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 01:51:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Podemos is unlikely to come first at this stage. And by "holding up" I mean Ciudadanos getting at least 15% overall in the general election.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 02:12:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But the did rather get 10% in the regional elections and Podemos 15%.

That is good enough to end a PP majority but not much more.

by IM on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 02:16:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, and my point is unless both Ciudadanos and Podemos get about 5% more between now and December (which I thought was quite likely until Ciudadanos started leaking support in the last couple of weeks), you're basically looking at a Grand Coalition.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 02:19:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
you're basically looking at a Grand Coalition.

The same odd bedfellow routine Italy has with Renzi with Alfano as Internal Minister and the PD's unholy matrimony with the Right remnants of Berlu, Bossi and the P2 gang.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Jun 29th, 2015 at 08:33:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This hopefully heralds the end of centrism, the mushy middle, corrupt and ineffective.

Worst case Greece dumps Syriza and goes Golden Dawn, even more damning optics for the Troika.

Hard time hiding the horns under a wig after that.

Mythology vs Democracy: The Greek Crisis


After years of the wrong people succeeding, Greece longs for the right people, even if they fail. For the first time, the working class voted in its own self-interest, unconvinced by the vague promise of social mobility and trickle-down. For the first time, a popular government stood up to big interests and said, "We don't see it like that. The EU you want is not the EU we want."

What is happening there matters to all. First, it forces out into the open and brings into sharp contrast the increasing divergence between the wellbeing of markets and the wellbeing of populations. Second, it marks a clear act of economic blackmail by a global de facto establishment - let's call it "The Davos Set" - unhappy at a democratic people opting for an alternative to neoliberalism.

How these tensions resolve themselves will determine whether national elections remain meaningful in any way; whether democratic change is possible or violent revolution is in fact the only effective option.

And there, I think, is the wider lesson from the Greek election. Globalised capitalism and democracy are often uncomfortable bedfellows. We must not assume that one needs - or magically brings about - the other. China is proof that they operate independently. Democracy is often messy. Markets like certainty. It is vital to recognise the existence of this tension.


The elegant J Kerry as media front man for the Ukraine Nazis, the dapper LaGarde pushing Greece towards Fascism, this is the new look to an old ploy.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sat Jun 27th, 2015 at 11:37:44 PM EST
melo:
Worst case Greece dumps Syriza and goes Golden Dawn, even more damning optics for the Troika.

Nonsense.  Golden Dawn will be welcomed as a new dawn for Greek democracy... and will be expected to do the Troika's dirty work for them much more efficiently

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 10:45:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And you'd call that good optics?
The Troika has to appear democratic at least superficially. Forcing that kind of change upon Greece is a kiss of death to any further illusions they were a force for good on any level other than bankster hitmen great for their puppetmasters but eternal doom for everyone else.
They've been acting this way in Jamaica and other relatively insignificant places for decades, but to blackmail a European country down that road in broad media daylight...

I think this over-reach going to melt their wings, shitty optics is just the intro.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Jun 29th, 2015 at 08:28:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Did that stop them in the 30s?

Is there anything in the past 7 years that felt fundamentally different from the 30s? Yes, it's Greece rather than France that had the leftish coalition, it's the Euro rules rather than gold standard - but the parallel is striking.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Jun 30th, 2015 at 03:33:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Fuck the troika with the broad side of a rake.

That is all.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 06:52:24 AM EST
In the end there can be no 'good faith' negotiation where faiths are that different. It seems the differing sides are living on different planets. The Eurogroup still clings to austerity, "we will get our money back", achieving 'structural reforms' in a few years that couldn't be achieved in decades, a faith in shock doctrine (I don't like Naomi Klein's work but the term seems apt), "Greece was on a good way until Syriza came along" etc.

The one big criticism I have for the Greeks and Syriza is that they still want to remain in the Euro. Why? It has only given them grief and it will continue to do so for a long time. I suspect it's a combination of: (1) Fear of the unknown. What comes after the Euro? Total Chaos? Not a crazy fear but wasn't fear the only thing to fear? (2) Stockholm Syndrome. (3) Sunk cost fallacy. People have bled for the Euro so much that it can't be for nothing. Well it was for almost nothing. (4) Pride/Prestige/Vanity. That is one of the big factors that led to the problem in the first place.

Schengen is toast!

by epochepoque on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 07:05:14 AM EST
Greek debt: ECB 'to maintain funding limit' - BBC News

The European Central Bank says it will maintain its emergency funding of Greek banks at the level agreed on Friday.

The ECB said that it stood ready to review the decision on its Emergency Liquidity Assistance (ELA) and would work closely with the Bank of Greece.

BBC economics editor Robert Peston says the ECB is not providing any additional aid to Greece, which will lead to huge pressure for capital controls.

Greek banks depend on ELA, and cutting it could push Greece out of the euro.

An ECB spokesman told the BBC: "Greece still has access to the ELA."

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 10:03:00 AM EST
FT.com
ECB caps emergency loans to Greek banks at €89bn
Lenders face capital controls or bank holiday
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 10:06:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Let's distinguish "freezing" ELA form "cutting" or "withdrawing" it.

Withdrawal may come on Wednesday after the "programme" expires "unsuccessfully".

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 01:08:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think there is much difference anymore in the current situation of greek banks.
by IM on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 02:10:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, there is a world of difference. Because if you freeze ELA you prevent the Greek banks from accessing further liquidity. But if you withdraw ELA you force the banks to pay back €90bn overnight - which is about 50% of Greek GDP.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 02:17:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But they will need further liquidity presently.
by IM on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 03:19:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not presently enough to preempt the referendum.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 03:21:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nothing that temporary capital controls cannot solve, actually.

I wrote this yesterday evening:

It's looking likely that the ECB Governing Council may withdraw emergency liquidity assistance (ELA) from the Greek banks no later than Wednesday (the current "second programme" expires at the end of Tuesday), if not earlier (though I think it could also freeze ELA now and withdraw it on Wednesday).


A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 03:35:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Varoufakis.eu
On the question that will be put to the Greek people, much has been said about what it should be. Many of you tell us, advise us, instruct us even, that we should make it a Yes or No question on the euro. Let me be clear on this. First, the question was formulated by the Cabinet and has just been passed through Parliament - and it is "Do you accept the institutions' proposal as it was presented to us on 25th June in the Eurogroup?" This is the only pertinent question. If we had accepted that proposal two days ago, we would have had a deal. The Greek government is now asking the electorate to answer the question you put it to me Jeroen - especially when you said, and I quote, "you can consider this, if you wish, a take or leave it proposal". Well, this is how we took it and we are now honouring the institutions and the Greek people by asking the latter to deliver a clear answer on the institutions' proposal.

To those who say that, effectively, this is a referendum on the euro, my answer is: You may very well say this but I shall not comment. This is your judgement, your opinion, your interpretation. Not ours! There is a logic to your view but only if there is an implicit threat that a No from the Greek people to the institutions' proposal will be followed up by moves to eject Greece, illegally, out of the euro. Such a threat would not be consistent with basic principles of European democratic governance and European Law.

by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 10:05:18 AM EST
"To those who say that, effectively, this is a referendum on the euro, my answer is: You may very well say this but I shall not comment."

A House of cards reference? In other words yes.

Once again too clever by half.

by IM on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 02:05:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you missed a nuance in the translation. The full version goes "yes. And the horse you rode in on."

I think you also missed the point: It's a great dog-whistle, you just aren't the dog he's whistling at.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 03:09:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No it doesn't:

"You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment."

close enough and no translation involved.

And no, such a reference is directed at the general public; not at some secret illuminati society.

Once again, too clever by half.

by IM on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 04:28:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The general public of Greece.

Varoufakis is playing to his domestic audience, and no longer caring about Dutch or German or Finnish sensibilities.

And lo and behold the clutching of pearls as the masters of the universe realize that they are now no longer in the target audience.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 04:53:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Its not for Varoufakis to say whether it is, since its not Varoufakis that decides whether a vote against the June 25th final proposal is a vote to leave the Euro. Its for the EU to decide that.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 07:00:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nope, the EU institutions have no laws granting them such a right.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Jun 29th, 2015 at 06:07:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, that is something that bugs me. All those EU actors insisting that this is the question asked on Sunday, whereas there is no legal way for Greece to be made to leave the Euro - nor indeed, probably, to leave of its own accord.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Mon Jun 29th, 2015 at 09:39:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There was no legal mechanism to exit the USSR as well...
by das monde on Mon Jun 29th, 2015 at 10:28:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]


Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.
by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jun 29th, 2015 at 12:13:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Greek debt crisis: Banks to stay shut, capital controls imposed - BBC News

Greek banks are to remain closed and capital controls will be imposed, Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras says.

Speaking after the European Central Bank (ECB) said it was not increasing emergency funding to Greek banks, Mr Tsipras said Greek deposits were safe.

Greece is due to make a €1.6bn (£1.1bn) payment to the International Monetary Fund (IMF) on Tuesday - the same day that its current bailout expires.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 03:47:03 PM EST
New Greek capital controls open thread now up.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jun 28th, 2015 at 03:57:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Joseph Stiglitz: how I would vote in the Greek referendum | Business | The Guardian

It is hard to advise Greeks how to vote on 5 July. Neither alternative - approval or rejection of the troika's terms - will be easy, and both carry huge risks. A yes vote would mean depression almost without end. Perhaps a depleted country - one that has sold off all of its assets, and whose bright young people have emigrated - might finally get debt forgiveness; perhaps, having shrivelled into a middle-income economy, Greece might finally be able to get assistance from the World Bank. All of this might happen in the next decade, or perhaps in the decade after that.

By contrast, a no vote would at least open the possibility that Greece, with its strong democratic tradition, might grasp its destiny in its own hands. Greeks might gain the opportunity to shape a future that, though perhaps not as prosperous as the past, is far more hopeful than the unconscionable torture of the present.

I know how I would vote.



It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Mon Jun 29th, 2015 at 12:13:25 PM EST
I was just about to post on this - Stiglitz says what few have had the guts to say:

A yes vote would mean depression almost without end.

Economics should not be a morality play.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon Jun 29th, 2015 at 12:47:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But what if they do vote Yes? The whole thing backfires and we're back in the same situation as six months ago, only worse - no hope of reversing the stupid narrative left. The troika saved from the day of reckoning, the Greeks aching under even harsher austerity, the only leftist government in Europe torpedoed out, the unruly masses controlled for another day. Given how most Greeks want to stay in the Euro and probably don't like the commotion of the last few days I think I know where this particular referendum decision is going. A Yes vote, albeit with a small majority.

Schengen is toast!
by epochepoque on Mon Jun 29th, 2015 at 05:59:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Tsipras has a new proposal

Greek debt crisis: Alexis Tsipras asks for new bailout - live updates | Business | The Guardian

GREECE PROPOSES A THIRD BAILOUT

The Greek government has proposed a new Two-Year bailout programme, according to news breaking in Athens.

This two-year programme would be supplied under the European Stability Mechanism (Europe's bailout fund)

And - crucially - would run alongside a debt restructuring. And it wouldn't include the International Monetary Fund.

In a statement from Alexis Tsipras's office, cited by Reuters, Greece says it is still at the negotiating table, and seeking "a viable solution, under the end, aimed at staying in the euro."

... Predictions for how long before it is unanimously howled down?

Minutes?
Hours?

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Jun 30th, 2015 at 10:31:08 AM EST
19 ministers, 2 minutes each... they will be done rejecting the offer before 20h

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 30th, 2015 at 10:38:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

So that would be a three-hour window.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Jun 30th, 2015 at 10:44:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We can only read this latest offer as a response to Juncker's latest offer. More blame-game. All rejected. On the other hand, if we take this offer seriously, the reason it would be rejected is that it requires Brussels to take ownership of the program (passing Greek laws). Most people think that conditionality is probably welcome in Brussels. I think not. No one wants to take ownership of the Greek economy. It also makes the IMF irrelevant. What would be the IMF's demands when it has achieved absolute conditionality? The only thing that makes me think this Greek offer may be real is that apparently Paul Mason had a coffee today with Euclid Tsakolotos who told him they are driving at making the Greek debt less spiky so as to put a program in place. It could be that Euclid is playing Mason, as much as this latest offer is surely a Varoufakis idea, but no one has yet accused Euclid of being a player.
by Upstate NY on Tue Jun 30th, 2015 at 11:06:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]


by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 30th, 2015 at 11:35:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If this deal is rejected tonight, and then there is a yes vote on Sunday, the offer will have other interesting facets.

  1. It will be aimed as much at Greek opposition parties. Since no one in Greece will own the program, it will defang the opposition. If Syriza manages to stay in power, it will be managing the wishes of the YES vote.

  2. The ESM request could only be made with the old program ending. It could not have been made earlier, since Greece has a right to ESM, even after the failure to close the previous program. Which explains the timing.

  3. Of course, the same could have happened at end of February. And then Greece could have saved the anguish of the last several months.

  4. One might then argue that Syriza not only had to manage a poker game with Europe, but it also had to bring along its own populace--not to mention its party--into this clarifying moment.
by Upstate NY on Tue Jun 30th, 2015 at 11:51:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Syriza's election platform, "an end to austerity, within the Eurozone" could be reprhased as "no austerity, but in cooperation with the Eurogroup". As the last 5 months have demonstrated this was impossible, the referendum is a choice between "No austerity, nor cooperation with the Eurogroup" (the 'No' vote) and "cooperation with the Eurogroup, at the cost of austerity" (the 'Yes' vote).

That's my interpretation. The attitude of the Eurogroup after a 'Yes' vote will depend on who is in government in Greece. There may be new elections and a caretaker government led by a compromise-minded Syriza figure such as deputy PM Yannis Dragasakis.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 1st, 2015 at 04:15:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Greek debt crisis: Alexis Tsipras asks for new bailout | The Guardian
Angela Merkel has told lawmakers in Germany that her government can't consider any new proposal from Greece until Sunday's referendum has taken place.


It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Tue Jun 30th, 2015 at 11:33:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
is expected in Dutch Parliament from 20:30 tonight. Make of that what you will.
by Bjinse on Tue Jun 30th, 2015 at 02:11:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A mismanaged bailout is worse than a Grexit | Europe | DW.COM | 30.06.2015

In all the political blame game of this week, one fact has been mostly overlooked: Seldom have macroeconomic difficulties been as persistently mismanaged as those of Greece over the past five years. Since the beginning of the crisis, Greece has performed markedly worse than the most of the hardest-hit crisis countries in the past half century - worse than Ukraine over the past decade (when it was confronted with all the well-known security issues in Eastern Ukraine and the occupation of Crimea by the Russians), worse than the economic-policy-pariah Argentina after its default in 2002 and worse than Burundi during its decade-long civil war in the 1990s and early 2000s.

Clearly, this dismal performance cannot be primarily blamed on institutional problems in Greece: Greek institutions might be weak, and corruption wide-spread, but would anyone seriously claim that institutional conditions in Athens are worse than those in Argentina in the 1990s or those in Burundi when Hutus and Tutsi killed each other by the thousands?

The mistakes in the Greek bailout programmes are by now well documented: For a long time, the troika postponed a necessary debt restructuring. When the debt restructuring came, the troika did not allow public creditors to be included, so the Greek debt level remained unsustainable. The troika also badly underestimated the detrimental impact of austerity on Greek output. And it focused on labor market reforms when the real problem were vested interests and monopolies in product markets, cutting into Greek wages without really improving competitiveness and exports.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 30th, 2015 at 11:42:31 AM EST
The mistakes in the Greek bailout programmes are by now well documented: For a long time, the troika postponed a necessary debt restructuring. When the debt restructuring came, the troika did not allow public creditors to be included, so the Greek debt level remained unsustainable. The troika also badly underestimated the detrimental impact of austerity on Greek output. And it focused on labor market reforms when the real problem were vested interests and monopolies in product markets, cutting into Greek wages without really improving competitiveness and exports.

One could be tempted to feel that this was deliberate.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Jun 30th, 2015 at 12:22:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Greece Can Stay in Euro Even With `No' Vote, Schaeuble Tells Lawmakers - Bloomberg Business

German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble told lawmakers in Berlin that Greece would stay in the euro for the time being if Greek voters reject austerity in a referendum scheduled this week, according to three people present.

Schaeuble also said the European Central Bank would do what's needed to protect the euro if Greeks voted against the bailout terms in the July 5 referendum, according to the people, all of whom participated in the closed-door meeting on Tuesday. They asked not to be identified, citing the private nature of the discussion.

Germany's stance suggests that policy makers in Berlin are preparing for Greeks to reject the offer by creditors for continued aid to the euro area's most-indebted nation. Schaeuble said in that event Greece may be able tap about 32 billion euros ($36 billion) in European Union support funding to boost its economy, according to the participants.

"Our goal remains to keep Greece in the euro, regardless of the referendum result," Antje Tillmann, a lawmaker for Chancellor Angela Merkel's Christian Democratic Union, said by phone. "It's up to Greece itself to decide whether it wants to stay in the euro zone."

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Jun 30th, 2015 at 12:14:55 PM EST
So all the stuff about "No = Grexit" is pure propaganda bullshit, purely to fool the Greek voters?

I'm SHOCKED, I tell you, SHOCKED

I hope this gets wide publicity.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Jun 30th, 2015 at 12:40:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Greece Can Stay in Euro Even With `No' Vote, Schaeuble Tells Lawmakers - Bloomberg Business
All EU economic-stimulus funds earmarked for Greece are "of course still available," Merkel said at a news conference Monday. "We also stand ready to help to the extent that it's necessary for Greece."

still available. That must explain why they've been deployed in Greece over the past five months... Because Scaeuble and Merkel are helpful.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Tue Jun 30th, 2015 at 12:45:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
`No new bailout unless Tsipras goes' | The Times

Greece will not get a cent in new eurozone bailout loans while Alexis Tsipras and Yanis Varoufakis remain in power, because Germany will block any such deal, one of Europe's most influential politicians has told The Times.

"Today there is the question of do we trust Tsipras and Varoufakis? The answer is clear to all parties, no," the senior German conservative said.

Wonder who that could be?

Clarifies what's been happening these last few months...

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Wed Jul 1st, 2015 at 03:20:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are reports that the creditors might want to deal with deputy PM Yannis Dragasakis, who appears to be leading the pro-deal Syriza faction.

Then there's the Tsipras-Varoufakis faction.

And then there is the left faction with parliament speaker Zoe Konstantopolou, minister for reconstruction Panagiotis Lafazanis, and MP Costas Lapavitsas as figureheads.

There ar also indications that the Germans don't want to deal with Syriza at all (maybe not even with Dragasakis?).

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 1st, 2015 at 04:08:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Apart from that, we totally respect other member countries' sovereignty.

Provided they reliably vote EPP we generally do, sometimes, at any rate...

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Wed Jul 1st, 2015 at 06:58:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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