Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.

UK General Election Results 2019

by Frank Schnittger Fri Dec 13th, 2019 at 12:51:53 PM EST

So the Opinion polls weren't so far off after all, with the Labour Party losing votes to all the other parties, but, given the idiocies of the First Past the Post electoral system, only the Conservatives and SNP reaped the benefits in terms of seats:

As was to be expected, all the "centrist" MPs who left or were thrown out of the Labour and Conservative parties and stood as independents, ChangeUK or Lib Dems lost their seats. The two party (+ regional/nationalist parties) system reigns supreme. There is no room for dissidence or doubt. You must follow one major party leader or the other. The system is designed to promote polarisation and conflict. Contrary to reports of unprecedented queues, turnout at 67% was down 1.5% on 2017.

On the bright side, the incompetent Jo Swinson (Lib Dem leader) whose refusal to work with Corbyn played a large role in forcing the election, and the odious Nigel Dodds (DUP deputy leader) lost their seats.

DUP Westminster leader Nigel Dodds reacts after losing his seat as Sinn Fein candidate John Finucane is declared the winner in the Belfast count centre on December 13, 2019 . (Photo by Charles McQuillan/Getty Images)

The changes in party seat numbers in N. Ireland may look small in the overall context, but are cataclysmic in the context of the perennial tribal headcount which is the basis of most N. I. Politics. For the first time ever, Nationalist MPs outnumber the Unionists, and both the dominant nationalist and unionist parties lost votes and seats to their more centrist rivals - the opposite to what was happening in Britain. The main beneficiaries were the centrist Alliance Party in terms of votes, and the soft nationalist SDLP in terms of seats.

This was largely because of the DUP's hardline pro-Brexit stance which is widely seen to have back-fired, Sinn Fein's ineffectual abstentionist policy, and the failure of both the DUP and Sinn Fein to resolve their differences and re-constitute the Legislative Assembly and Executive - N. Ireland's devolved institutions under the Good Friday Agreement.

In Scotland the SNP almost scored a clean sweep winning 48 out of the 59 seats at the expense of the Conservatives (-7) and Labour (-6). The pressure for a second independence referendum can only increase as Scotland is dragged out of the EU against the wishes of its people. This would in turn cast many N. Ireland unionists adrift, as their attachment is often more to Scotland than England or Wales.

So big changes have been initiated by this election. Boris Johnson is probably more toxic in Europe than Corbyn is in England and so the prospects for an EU/UK trade deal look bleak during his premiership, let alone the next 12 months. Politics can trump economics in the EU as well, especially as 30 national, regional, and the European Parliament must ratify any deal.

Brexiteers are elated that their man has won and they feel confident they will now get the Brexit they want because of the strong mandate he has received from the British electorate. What they do not appear to realise is that the EU had little difficulty over-riding the wishes of the Greek electorate over the bail-out and will pay little heed to the wishes of the electorate of a soon-to-be non-member. Their concept of what is in the best interests of the EU may bear little relationship to what EU leaders and electorates may consider to be in their best interests in the future.

The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the European Union rather than German, which was the other possibility.

As part of the negotiations, the British Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5- year phase-in plan that would become known as "Euro-English".

In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in favour of "k". This should klear up konfusion, and keyboards kan have one less letter.

There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced with "f". This will make words like fotograf 20% shorter.

In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible.

Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling.

Also, al wil agre that the horibl mes of the silent "e" in the languag is disgrasful and it should go away.

By the 4th yer people wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with "z" and "w" with "v".

During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou" and after ziz fifz yer, ve vil hav a reil sensi bl riten styl.

Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi TU understand ech oza. Ze drem of a united urop vil finali kum tru.

Und efter ze fifz yer, ve vil al be speking German like zey vunted in ze forst plas.

If zis mad you smil, pleas pas on to oza pepl.

And Congratulations you have learnt German within minutes...

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Dec 13th, 2019 at 01:59:14 PM EST
Haha it's "American" not "English" that yer speaking. And nobody over here knows how to spell, so no problem.
by asdf on Fri Dec 13th, 2019 at 02:37:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Zanks for zat. I neded SOMZINK tu laf abot.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Dec 14th, 2019 at 05:20:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Consider the EU referendum a shot across the bow by England (L. 53.4% vs R. 46.6%) ...

Yesterday's decisive victory not only sets London on a collision course with the EU, but a choice that loosens ties to Scotland and Northern Ireland. 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿

Johnson's triumph will allow to leave the European Union on his terms

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Fri Dec 13th, 2019 at 02:15:05 PM EST
That last link...
Johnson's triumph will allow to leave the European Union on his terms

Johnson's real "terms" would be having his cake and eating it. That is definitely not on the menu.

Denis Staunton London Editor
Foreign correspondent syndrome.
by Bernard (bernard) on Fri Dec 13th, 2019 at 07:45:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fantasyland ... or make belief 🌚

Great Tory line-up: David Cameron - Theresa May - Boris Johnson and their great negotiating team members.

Due to the Germans and Merkel's CSU partners and automotive lobby group, the last 90-day extension gave BoJo the extra rope to hang Corbyn. Jo Swinson wasn't helpful.

My Take A Short Extension, No Election

Playing into the hands of the Brexiteers.

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Fri Dec 13th, 2019 at 08:04:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think he means Boris' Brexit deal will now pass parliament, regardless of what the DUP, Tory centrists or the ERG might think of it.

There will be no new Brexit negotiation or deal, although I suspect many Brits expect Boris will now get a great "future relationship" deal because of the strong mandate he has been given.

Quite why the EU should now care what Tory voters want is less than clear. The EU's job is to look after the interests of its own members, not the preferences of non-member electorates.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sat Dec 14th, 2019 at 08:10:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I didn't thought so either, but the framing is interesting: the Brexiters have been living in their own fantasy where the British government would be dictating to the EU the terms of their departure (essentially: have cake, eat it too). The MSM in London has been so immersed in the Brexit saga that, they too, tend to report on it as primarily an intra-British, intra-English really, struggle.

Reality will bite eventually.

by Bernard (bernard) on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 06:54:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think we shouldn't discount how sick of it everyone is already. Boris promised to get "Brexit done", while Labour promised a process that will lead to a vote that might at some point...
by generic on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 07:00:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But Boris is going to be under the same pressure to "get Brexit done" 12 months form now when the transition period is due to end and a new trade agreement is supposed to kick in.

EU negotiators will again hold all the cards as BoJo gets increasingly desperate for "the easiest trade deal in history" and all they have to do is sit back, dictate their terms, and wait for BoJo to fold (again).

In practice if BoJo wants a deal in 12 months it will be a cut and paste job on the Canada deal with a few security, intelligence sharing, and policing cooperation add-ons to justify the Canada+++ tag.

What the UK won't get in that timescale is a deal covering services (80% of the UK economy) and EU service companies must be licking their licks at the prospect of picking up a lot of this business almost by default.

Yes of course UK companies have been busy setting up subsidiaries in EU Countries, but regulators are already stressing that "brass plate companies" won't qualify as made in EU under "country of origin" customs and regulatory rules, so either huge chunks of UK companies relocate, or they will lose their EU business.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 07:50:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course. Getting Brexit done is itself a lie.
by generic on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 08:39:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I genuinely think that, mad as it may seem, they don't really want a trade deal with the EU.

Or rather they aren't aware that one is necessary. They aren't really buiness people, in terms of trading tangibles. they're spivs and bankster parasites, free market fundamentalists. they have no concept of how things happen in the real world.

And the moment they encounter a problem, they'll run off to Daddy donald, who will give them an offer they can't refuse. Or rather, a great deal for the City spivs and parasites, for the rest of the UK where the majority live, not so much.

But they never gave a shit about us anyway.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Dec 16th, 2019 at 08:46:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They want to do a smash and grab raid - sell off the NHS, lock in low trading standards for US imports, eviscerate worker rights, job done.

Johnson will resign as soon as the items on that list are ticked off, which will be by the end of the year. Some other loser can deal with the fall out.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Dec 17th, 2019 at 12:18:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The bulk of the Anglophone world are Hells-bent on cutting off their own heads to spite theiir faces.
by rifek on Fri Dec 13th, 2019 at 02:47:19 PM EST
I saw an interesting comment which suggested that, despite their overwhelming victory in cotland, more people actually voted against the SNP than for it.

While that doesn't matter under FPTP, it will matter a great deal if the SNP go for an early referendum. I'd have suggested a protracted process to enable the Tory brexit to begin to bite to soften opposition.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Dec 13th, 2019 at 06:47:13 PM EST
Hundreds of English voters plan `move to Scotland' after General Election horror
Hundreds of English and Welsh, as well as EU immigrants living in both countries, have been taking to Twitter to share their desires to move up here, encouraging Scots to push for a second independence referendum.
Over on Google, many of those disheartened by the results have been frantically searching for information on how to make their plan to move up north a reality.

As the polls closed last night, there was a huge spike in searches for `move to Scotland', with those people also looking into `jobs in Scotland' and property sites such as Zoopla and Rightmove.

by Bernard (bernard) on Fri Dec 13th, 2019 at 07:38:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe it's an insurrection play: Go for a fast indyref2, be denied by Johnson, stoke the flames as real Brexit takes hold. Then get a victorious referendum in a decade or so.

Schengen is toast!
by epochepoque on Fri Dec 13th, 2019 at 08:05:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If Corbyn had needed the SNP to form a government, they could have made their support conditional on Indyref2.

Now that Boris has said they can't have one, they can continue to stoke up resentment as the disaster of Brexit unfolds.

In effect they have been saved from an early referendum defeat by Boris' victory.

My guess is that they will get one and win it shortly after the next general election when the Tories will be trounced - but not until 2024...

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sat Dec 14th, 2019 at 08:14:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Extremely doubtful unless they take up arms. Westminster legislative or judicial support in UK for secession -> zero. EUWA2018 preceding Wightman and acts following it that impair SP exercise of section 30 of the Scotland Act 1998 position "nationalists" at the bottom of a political hill. Sturgeon's ambivalence has been duly noted in presses by ardent proponents, who seemingly grapple with feasible, if symbolic, success of 2024 referendum date.
by Cat on Sat Dec 14th, 2019 at 08:51:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
doubt in independence, union-ish "safety". Guardian is already on it, flourishing a 3-month-old "report" that not only disparages SNP fiscal competence, but EU ascension.
Scotland's deficit seven times higher than UK as a whole last year
"Scotland's notional deficit stood at £12.6bn or 7% of GDP, including North Sea oil revenues, compared with the UK's total £23.5bn deficit, which includes Scotland's figure. The UK deficit is equivalent to 1.1% of its GDP."

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 03:50:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ireland sustained a national deficit greater than that (as percentage of GDP) for much of the 1980s.
by asdf on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 07:57:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, yes, though I'd say "survived" rather than "sustained": mine was the first generation for a long time that was able to stay in the country for quite a long time.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 08:28:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Labour" resettlement in the SP as "London bottoms out".

Guardian is whipping it, a four-year-old re-print cast to #2 "Most Viewed in UK News" posted beneath the FP story "House prices predicted to rise by 2% in UK - with the north leading the way".

Thousands sign petition calling for north of England to be part of Scotland , 14 May 2015

"New Scotland" would see Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Newcastle and the rest of the north of England ruled from Edinburgh instead of London, with the Scottish National party holding the reins.

The petition was started last year during the Scottish referendum campaign but lay dormant following the no vote.

by Cat on Mon Dec 16th, 2019 at 01:38:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Guess they will be able to join the EU but not the Euro then (afaik that is where the 3% target is).

Good for them. And with their own currency they can sustain any particular budget deficit, because the government owns the printing press and the 3% target is built on nothing but French internal rules in the 80ies.

by fjallstrom on Tue Dec 17th, 2019 at 09:05:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by generic on Fri Dec 13th, 2019 at 07:11:25 PM EST
"patronage of the powerful". heh

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Fri Dec 13th, 2019 at 08:37:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Very good thread. I think it's the same dynamic as in settler populations left behind after the empire has shifted interest

Two lessons sticking out:

  1. it took years of smears to get here, which underscores the need to build media that can counter.

  2. the role of the antisemitism accusation as both a smear and a dog whistle about insufficient hatred and fear of Muslims.
by fjallstrom on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 04:30:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

by generic on Fri Dec 13th, 2019 at 08:05:48 PM EST
Labour and Corbyn did well in 2017. The longer it took to finalize a Brexit deal, the Tories won the blame game: Brussels and HoC with Swinson and Corbyn to blame for delay. People were fed up and Labour with their detailed Manifesto prepared for a normal General Election. Gunslinger BoJo was waiting for JeCo in the O.K. Corral for a Brexit showdown.

The Republicans won the Presidency not by popular vote, but winning the swing states with smallest of margins. Playing the tactical game of winning politics.

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Fri Dec 13th, 2019 at 08:29:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In 2017 they managed to make it a non-Brexit election. There was the moment when the Tory press discovered their party program and thought it so nutty that they signal boosted on all channels. They learned and absolutely refused to discuss policy this time. There is only Brexit and hiding in the fridge.
by generic on Fri Dec 13th, 2019 at 08:37:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, they did. "Labour" helped the "Tories" a lot. Exit was the foregone conclusion for all MPs while the yella sheets fulminated glamours--the most invidious being of course the virulent "battle" for Most Antisemitic Democratic Leadership. This so-called opposition could long ago have run against the nefarious Tory domestic policies most recently entitled by EUWA 20118. But, no. Desiring the imprimatur of middle-class respectability, they conjured the no "no deal" defense for not ratifying the Withdrawal Agreement, rejected the It's a Trap election to save their narrow asses 60 days, then backed [!] the Letwin amendment --on the third [!] extension request to EU--in order to well and truly bury any bills but HRM BoJo's. The last nail in the coffin has got to be "tactical voting" exhortations, too clever by half--or a box of bird shot, as Dave Chapelle has said.

Britain has got exactly what they need, a hard lesson in how to "manage" national affairs. Best wishes for a speedy recovery, etc. etc.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Fri Dec 13th, 2019 at 09:47:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They certainly screwed up, but Brexit as a whole was a trap. That was May's innovation, when it became apparent that the EU wouldn't play ball on doing another Cameron-like special negotiation: Set the country on fire, but break Labour in the process. Because Labour was already trapped between their activist base that wanted to stop the process and their former industrial heartlands that would feel betrayed. There was also the problem that there was no clear principled stance to take. In the first round they tried to minimize the damage by going for a close union. In every way worse than the status quo, but not catastrophally so. In round two they embraced (what used to be) the remain position. And were wiped out.
by generic on Fri Dec 13th, 2019 at 11:14:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
tbh, I have suspected an agreement between EU and UK on who would take "the blame", given EU hard line on GFA and HRM BoJo's early, public admissions of ignorance following introductory audiences with EC negotiators.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Fri Dec 13th, 2019 at 11:22:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
IOW, nearly everyone on the planet, no less EU gov, wants BREXIT "done." Cameron started it nine years ago with Tory "EU reform", someone had to end it. HRM BoJo, being eminently qualified to take the heat for fake-ass constitutionalists and ridicule for Labour's deceitful, procedural opposition and concern for "the vulnerable", vouchsafed his service and ignominy to EU right up to the Oct summit.

Hardly "transparent," but here we are grappling with "democractic" principles of the elites. Did I mention today, they are the one's with the guns?

"Somebody's got to be the bad guy"

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Fri Dec 13th, 2019 at 11:48:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
From his "Sticks an Stones" performance, Aug 2019: Dave relates his surprise and fear on night, when an armed stranger trespasses his front yard.
As soon as he got far enough away I ran to my car and sped to K-Mart. This is in a rural white area. And I ran to the gun counter, black and sweaty, sweating and black, and I looked up --I looked like a slave or something --I said, "I need a gun immediately." Just like that. The guy didn't ask no questions, just grabbed a 12-gauge shot gun and handed it to me. I'd never handled a gun before. I said, "Well, I need some bullets, too." And the guy reached under the counter, put two boxes of shells on the counter. He said, "Alright, buddy. Which box do you want?" I didn't know. One box had pictures of ducks on it. The other box had a picture of some deer. I said, "What that box with them ducks?" He said, "Oh, that there is bird shot." And he goes just like this --I'm not exaggerating-- he goes [SHAKING HEAD], "That won't kill a man."

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Sat Dec 14th, 2019 at 12:27:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
wut: "Our polls were good at identifying the correct challenger in key seats. But voters needed more than a common enemy." NSS.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 03:29:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I saw some poll that I can't find now that asked about the most important question in the election. Among Tories voters, most said Brexit, but among Labour voters slightly more said NHS. (And SNP voters said "Other")

I think Labours realisation was that if it is a Brexit-election they lose, and therefore they tried to make it about NHS (and public services in general). They lost, but I don't think they were wrong. (While SNP managed to get enough voters in Scotland to not vote on Brexit but instead on independence for Scotland.)

Which means that down the line, if they don't turn back to Blairism, Labour stands to gain if Brexit is ever done and there comes an election after that.

by fjallstrom on Tue Dec 17th, 2019 at 09:25:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The worrying trend is the steady increase in Tory votes, whereas the Labour vote has stagnated.

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sat Dec 14th, 2019 at 08:17:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One really need to add both other parties - UKIP does a rise and fall during the period - and more elections. Major had 14 million votes in 1992 - and lost seats.

Actually going back it is remarkable how few has voted the last decades. Churchill got 12,5 million votes in 1950 and lost to Attlee's 13,2 million votes.

by fjallstrom on Tue Dec 17th, 2019 at 09:18:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My Belfast Telly account is "temporarily locked out".

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Fri Dec 13th, 2019 at 08:17:49 PM EST

Innovation! LOL

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Fri Dec 13th, 2019 at 08:28:51 PM EST

L-R: Farry (Alliance-R), Hanna (SDLP-R), Finucane (SF-R), Lockhart (DUP-L), Eastwood (SDLP-R).
Meet the five new NI faces at Westminster as nationalists outnumber unionists for first time

by Cat on Sat Dec 14th, 2019 at 10:17:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Labour constituents from the Red Wall remind me of the Israelites, Moses, Mt Sinai, sin of the calf or bull worship and the Promised Land. Boris the pharao just crossed the Red Sea ..,

'I feel betrayed': readers in the 'red wall' react to Labour's collapse

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Fri Dec 13th, 2019 at 08:53:07 PM EST
< wipes tears >

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Fri Dec 13th, 2019 at 09:47:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No False Consolations | Novara Media
We should be careful here. There was no `good' position on Brexit. Just because you have found a problem doesn't mean you have found a solution. Or, indeed, that there is one ready to hand. Part of the problem appears to be that parliamentary victories against Theresa May and Boris Johnson - regarded as `playing a blinder' by the punditry - were received poorly by a lot of leave voters. They saw the political establishment stopping Brexit. The anti-parliamentary rhetoric initiated by May, and turned into a foghorn blast by Johnson, was operating on real discontents. But how would Labour have justified voting through May's deal? How much support might that have lost? How many people would have been utterly demoralised and `done with Corbyn' at that point? How many voters would have gone Lib Dem or Green then? Would `tactical voting' have saved us?

Besides, there is another issue of how policy has been communicated. At a certain point, with regard to Brexit, constructive ambiguity ceased being constructive. There was a need to outline a definite agenda for Brexit. Labour went into the European elections barely campaigning, and running on the idea of reuniting our divided country. Which was not the mood. We then went into the general election with a second referendum position, decided on quite abruptly after three years of saying no second referendum. And we only clarified the position - that Corbyn would be neutral - mid-campaign. Several MPs refused to say, when asked, which side they would back, knowing either answer would be a trap.

by generic on Sat Dec 14th, 2019 at 12:32:02 AM EST

OK, maybe not in the last four centuries.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Sat Dec 14th, 2019 at 01:20:00 AM EST

'Sapere aude'
by Oui (Oui) on Sat Dec 14th, 2019 at 08:27:11 AM EST
Seems to me the underlying problem is that if you are going to call your party the "Labour" party (or the more safely named "Democratic" party in the US), and hope to support it with votes from working class people, you need to have policy positions that align with the opinions of working class people.

That might mean policies based on discrimination according to race or religion or gender or age, on misinterpretations or misunderstandings of history or economics, on demands for state protection of jobs via tariffs or nonsensical trade agreements, on bias and prejudice of the sort found in tabloid newspapers, on excessive enthusiasm for sports stars, TV celebrities, or clowns, etc.

IOW, exactly what the current so-called "conservative" parties in the US and UK are currently peddling.

by asdf on Sat Dec 14th, 2019 at 05:08:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
By this video again:

Liberals essentially care about two things: harm and fairness. If it does not harm somebody or it isn't unfair, then it is morally ok.

Conservatives care (in addition to those two!) about loyalty, authority and purity. Frivolous ancient cliche concerns? Or is there functional or Darwinian importance to them? Morality is not just optimized, comfortable kumbaya.

Progressives are casting the frames of racism, oppression, misogyny too widely if that alienates everyone who is not a keen follower of #MeToo or #BlackLivesMatter discourses. Do we really want to stop talking to those people like that? How many more electoral losses would shift social epistemology of the progressives?

by das monde on Sat Dec 14th, 2019 at 08:46:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Right, so are the "left wing" parties in the US and UK liberal parties or worker parties? Seems to me that the alignment between these two that has been in place for a few decades now may not be holding up very well.
by asdf on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 12:50:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Liberal" hasn't conveyed the same connotation in Europe as in the US, although it should have and despite the intense derogatory association of liberalism by US crypto-conservatives and "antifascists" with "globalism," which is itself a euphemism for any and all "free trade" policy.

(US Americans possessing a passing familiarity with westworld political philosophy since 1700 can go ahead and blame 25 years of laureate Krugman econics for the confusion and limousines.)

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 01:22:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I may admit, my sympathy for leftist woes is slowly diminishing since they basically abandoned strive for economic fairness for (what is broadly called) identity politics. That did not look like doing a harder thing. I don't see great future for the modern (or postmodern) progress'plaining.
by das monde on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 09:19:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure your dichotomy - "abandoning economic fairness for identity politics" - is particularly applicable to Corbyn's Labour party.

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 09:35:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Corbyn's Labour were always about economic fairness and opportunity. What they weren't about was Little Englander White Supremacy.

A lot of Little Englanders had a problem with this. They're interested in being told their Englishness makes them better than other people, not in abstract notions of social fairness which they literally can't understand.

This has been brewing for a while. There was the notorious incident at the end of Brown's term when a microphone was "accidentally" left on Brown and he was heard calling a Little Englander he'd talked to an "awful woman" and a "bigot." The press feeding frenzy helped kill Brown's chances.

Later Emily Thornberry mentioned "White Van Man" - and same again.

The Tories have apparently reframed the identity politics debate away from "We'll starve you and stamp on your face" to "But at least this country will be properly English, so you'll have your self-respect back - unlike those creepy leftists, with their foreigner-loving ways, and their sneering condescension."

It's straight out the Bannon/Hitler playbook. Emphasise tribal belonging, find some outsiders to demonise, repeat your three-word slogans at every possibly opportunity, and ride to power on the hate and lies.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 10:07:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You might think that, after a few years of seeing what having your country back (you know, that country that never belonged to you, ever) means in terms of real life, real jobs, real public services, will change perceptions and all will be well.

Last week I read somewhere a man from Grimsby saying of B Johnson "He seems like a regular working class bloke." To the journalist who pointed out that Johnson was Eton and Oxford, the Grimsby resident replied, "Yes, he went to Eton, but all the prime ministers do. They always come out of the top layer" (my paraphrase).

People perceive and believe what they want to perceive and believe, and the more alienated they are, the more resentment they have in their guts, the more counterfactual and crazy are their judgements. It's not much use expecting their minds to change under the pressure of real events.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing, nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 11:03:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You have to decode this. To working class voters, Johnson is "one of us." He's a white supremacist. He's selfish. He looks after his own interests.

The Left's mistake has always been to assume that when the working classes support the Left, it's for ideological and empathic reasons.

It isn't. A lot of the support has always been for selfish, tribal reasons. It's about negative oppositional defiance, not positive  hypothetical class loyalty.

Once upon a time when there were factories and working men's clubs, Labour could cultivate and channel that selfishness and direct the oppositional defiance against "the bosses".  In simpler times this meant turning a blind eye to the racism and opportunism that went with this.

Now the Tories have owned it. Johnson is the classic oppositional defiant type - two fingers and a fuck you to everyone. Likewise Farage and Trump.

That's why he "seems like a regular working class bloke" - ethically. He's a chancer, on the make, ambitious, ruthless. Doesn't take any shit from his enemies.

One of us. Not one of them. Not one of the effeminate and weak "girly swots".

These people are thinking like children. It's a playground fight to them. They don't understand nuance or subtlety. All they know is they'd rather side with the playground bully than the effeminate untrustworthy intellectual who's genuinely concerned for their interests.

The genius of the Tory and Brexit campaigns was to specifically target these people. They're not genuinely a majority, but with FPTP they can be turned into a powerful swing vote that wins a landslide.

Combined with the media reinforcement - about Corbyn's traitorous terrorist background, and that freaky fat Diane Abbott black creature - Labour never had a chance.

But worse - the anti-semitism smears and terrorist associations have now been assigned to the left. There's already going to be an "investigation" into the "anti-semitism" of independent left-leaning news sites like The Canary.

I think it's only a matter of time before Johnson ramps up the "enemy within" rhetoric and starts hinting about dangerous and traitorous dark forces working to undermine this brilliant country of ours.

Anyone who hasn't moved out by then will be in serious danger.

As a side note, the shocking thing for me has been watching the Guardian's support for this. The Guardian has been 100% on-message with the anti-semitism smears, and is absolutely gloating about Labour's failure.

I know the Guardian has rarely been a friend to the real Left, but its willingness to destroy the only real opposition to the Tories and TINA has some very disturbing implications.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 01:14:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Spot on 😣 ... (unfortunately)

The Brexit anger had lingered on for too long to be exploited by BoJo and his henchmen. The Election trap was set by the Brexiteers and both Jo and Jeremy stepped into it with no recourse. People will suffer ...

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 01:28:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Keep repeating this, and it might become true.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 02:14:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So the dichotomy you are positing is between right wingers who are obviously and openly in it for themselves (and their lords and masters), and left wingers who claim to be in it for the poor and working classes and who are continually disappointed that the poor and working classes don't recognise their altruism and generosity and instead choose to ape the greedy and selfish right wingers with who they feel more psychologically aligned?

The selfish instinctively distrust the unselfish and wonder what their game is, smelling a rat even when there isn't one? They recognise their inner Trump/Boris selfish/boorish/narcissistic selves and at least have the merit of not being hypocrites?

Idealism vs. Realism in another guise?

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 02:41:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That makes it sound as if the middle class socialists are martyring themselves - which isn't necessarily true. And also that there are no middle class opportunists on the left - which definitely isn't true.

It's more of an instinctive choice. You either have empathy for suffering or you don't. The traditional Left mistake is to assume that everyone who leans Left is also motivated primarily by a desire for a better and fairer world for everyone.

In reality there's a lot of selfishness and aggressive tribalism, which is a weakness that can be captured and exploited by authoritarians and opportunists on both sides. Some of it is covert and unconscious, but some of it isn't.

Among the less educated - the biggest fault line in this election - it's easy to exploit the split by presenting it in negative tribal terms, rather than in terms of future possibilities.

It's essentially authoritarian identity politics - still identity politics, but in a form that doesn't make sense within the social justice frames the Left traditionally uses.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 04:11:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But isn't that why the left is so easily discredited? All it takes is a few examples of selfishness/opportunism on the left and all of a sudden all left wingers are on the make like everyone else - "they're all the same" - except that left wingers are more devious and  cunning about it?

A few examples of left-wingers fixing expenses for a few grand is more debilitating and disqualifying than many right wingers basically in the pay of oligarchs. Ian Paisley Jnr got caught out several times fiddling expenses and taking holidays in Sri Lanka worth many thousands in return for lobbying for the Sri Lankan government against accusations of human rights abuses.

He got re-elected by a large majority. Tribal loyalty trumps everything. No one expected any different.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 04:28:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"only a matter of time before Johnson ramps up the "enemy within" rhetoric"

I believe that in current terminology that is the "deep state." You know, all those people in the civil service, the armed forces, the courtrooms...

by asdf on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 08:05:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Where did Labour shift after Blair, in comparison to post-Clinton Dems? I see one common point: condescension toward "deplorables". So the urbanite view of social justice was out-leaping the countryside understanding with no pity. Creepy indeed. What next?
by das monde on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 10:54:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're talking to the voices in your head again.
by generic on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 10:59:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Have best time in your own reality!
by das monde on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 11:03:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I can recommend.
Still, Corbyn's Labour was laser focused on material gains for both working and middle class. Smelling Clintonite bad-faith idpol infestation is just nuts.
by generic on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 12:04:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Working-class voters didn't trust or believe Labour (The Guardian)

How come they did not believe the laser focus? Are lasers avocado-munching Marxists?

by das monde on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 12:45:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know about that.

The root of a racist society, its industry and culture, is wide and deep. No one disputes the Tory legacy. Look at Priti, Gina, Diane, and the last poor bastid smote by the narwhale tusk. Look at generational wealth formation. How did Labour express its solution to the great inequality? By adding "growth" to both sides.

According to POLLING, Most Americans oppose reparations for slavery. 71% of n. And I say, the Anglo diseased apple, not one of its slices, not fall far from the tree. What say you, child whisperer: True or false?

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 02:51:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd say that tree - and there are others like it along the seaboards of Western Europe and the seedlings that grew from them in the Americas - is heavy with apples crawling with vilest toxic worms that have for names traffic, murder, rape, torture, misery, brutal misappropriation of labour in order to produce rapidly-increasing capital, enrichment based on massive destruction of human life (not murder but destruction of life-being-lived, and for generations) and of society. Of course those rotten apples fall right under the tree.

So you could say that the very ineptitude of Labour's proposing growth and public services for all, rich and poor alike, is by default a form of identity politics because it doesn't attempt to address the specific long-term suffering of certain groups and therefore promotes the interests of others (with inherent racist and class bias).

But it does take a deal of mental arm-twisting to get there, particularly in the face of the usual suspects' blatant dog-whistling. And in terms of perception, I very much doubt the UK electorate saw identity politics in Labour's proposals, whereas a good many voter-dogs were happy to respond to Tory whistles.

But maybe I misunderstood your cryptic comment, wouldn't be the first time. The above is what I think, anyway.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing, nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 07:42:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Past is indeed prologue. The semblance of equality and liberal sentiments with which some, not all, come into the world is false. Because it is false, it is comforting. So one generation after dies having never confronted the evidence they step over and around again and again. Labour's manifesto does gingerly broach the peace. But sophisticates normally do not set flashpoints of sobriety in the political education of Average Consumer. I frequently return to the appearance of "race" among normal or deviant public concerns, because a more graphic model of permanent privation hasn't displaced it in the imagination of Average Consumer. Racism inculcates monstrous conceit and evaporates in indifference to the means by which a well "developed" middle-class society, such as purportedly threatened in the UK by conservative malefactors, accumulates wealth, polices hierarchy, and pampers status.

This renewal and growth of exploitation people, processes, and things pervades the most mundane resentment of government purposes: how much and to whom. Corbyn is not immune to profit motivation. Nor is he, being one, specially equipped to solve the scale and scope of the problem before him: inequality. It cannot be solved until constituents who have more and fight for more are willing to give up the privilege, if you will, to them who are exploited. The societies we inhabit are unbalanced.

by Cat on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 10:46:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
thread coping
by Cat on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 11:10:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"loyalty, authority and purity" seem like values for a toxic dictatorship, not a democracy.
by IdiotSavant on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 12:55:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Problematic, Don-Kichotic epistemology again: it must be either pure democracy or toxic dictatorship? How did Corbyn do without loyalty and authority? Isn't it clear by now that folks increasingly prefer dickhead deciders over compliance to ideals and institutions?

Progressive aversion to authority is a basic political handicap. Are they even agreeably registered as possible leadership material? If there is always something "objective" to blame, if progressives do not have control over events, what business do they have in leading society? So Corbyn chose not to take a position on Brexit, to share responsibility on tough decisions democratically - oh my! Democracy is overrated if everyone has to be wise, arbitrating, convincing, and on moral high.

by das monde on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 09:11:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As you yourself say, it doesn't have to be purely one thing or another, but Corbyn clearly lacked something at the emotional intelligence level which prevented many people from connecting to him positively at an emotional level and so provided fertile (shallow) ground for all the propaganda to take root.

People will believe what they want to believe - the intellectual rationalisation comes later - and the propagandists merely have to provide the feedstock to promote and copper-fasten an inchoate emotional antipathy.

So what was it in Corbyn that sparked the antipathy? A certain dry intellectualism, a moral superiority, a distance from base needs and desires, an association with distant causes most people didn't have the spare emotional capacity to care about?

For the left, politics is mostly about policies and evidence and outcomes. For the right, it is emotional satisfaction, a relationship building no matter how shallow and false, a short term emotional release no matter how negative the longer term consequences?

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 09:31:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My brief two words would be: Leadership Intelligence.

Progressives are in a castrated state in this regard. Shying away from authority and charisma, from asserting yourself and enjoying the privilege -- that is not for the game, but zero emotional recognition of leadership.

The say, the opposite of love is not hate but indifference. I do not think that Corbyn sparked much antipathy, apart from the media trash-talk residue. Rather, he was emphatically non-engaging. Not a force to counter the media trash-talk. So much out of the league of Boris.

Speculating after the fact is easy. But I think that Corbyn had no chance with the ambivalent stance towards Brexit. It was time to be brave and to make the December 12 election as the second referendum already. That alone (and perhaps nothing else) would have given Corbyn many emotional points, despite unpredictable chaos to ensure. As it stands now: if even professional progressive politicians did not make a clear case for Remain, the popular faith has to be "Brexit be it".  

by das monde on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 10:50:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What was most striking was that Labour never seemed to emphasize how awful Boris' Brexit deal really is: the £40 Billion "giveaway", the cave-in over N. Ireland, the lack of any firm legal commitment to any future trade deal with the EU, the customs and red tape, the job losses as Single Market focused companies leave.

It seems any deal would do, as long as "Brexit was done", and then it was supposed to be all over. Back to 50's and 60's I suppose, without the social and health care services...

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 11:28:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Also they didn't point out that if you don't like Corbyn, fine, he is the PM for a while (possibly a very short while) and then somebody else will be chosen. Short term situation.

But leaving the EU is almost a one-way function. All the special agreements worked out by Thatcher, et al., will be forgotten if/when the UK applies to rejoin. And rejoining will not only be on the EU's terms, it will include a punitive aspect.

by asdf on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 08:15:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I wouldn't be too sure the UK - if there is a "United" Kingdom in 4 years - would be easily re-admitted to the EU.  There's a very real prospect the island won't be able to meet the economic, political, and social criteria.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Mon Dec 16th, 2019 at 05:09:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It would be too much of a humiliation for the "UK" even to re-apply for membership, and of course no special deals or exemptions would apply if it did so. I can't see it happening within the next 25 years. Some kind of special "associate" membership perhaps. But the Brits are special. They would require a "special" relationship.

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Dec 16th, 2019 at 07:22:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Brexit will be done for Christmas, with Johnson scoring a stunning victory for the bullshit-industrial complex. From the outset, the Tories decided it was more effective to pretend you're listening to people who have doubts about you, than to invite them to fuck off and join the Labour party. But hey - everyone's a strategist after the event.

Marina Hyde. Not nice to Labour, but much better than the host of Told-you-so pundits. Read the whole thing.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing, nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Sat Dec 14th, 2019 at 08:39:50 AM EST
So how's the counter revolution going in Labour? Corbyn will be out by spring and already they're trying to sign up new members (or rejoin) apparently to counterbalance Momentum ("it's not Corbyn, it's Brexit's fault"). This could get naaasty.

Farewell, Jezza. We were somewhat sympathetic to you as an old lefty from the back benches. But you didn't play the game very well and let yourself be made a bogeyman. Yeah, railing against austerity is the best thing you did. On the other hand, losing against the most unpopular prime minister is also quite an achievement.

Schengen is toast!

by epochepoque on Sat Dec 14th, 2019 at 09:54:41 PM EST
Ben ... great admirer of "The Reds are coming" ...

Source: The Spectator

Related reading ...

The OPCW and Douma: Chemical Weapons Watchdog Accused of Evidence-Tampering by Its Own Inspectors

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Sat Dec 14th, 2019 at 10:36:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
At least all the Guardian melts can now run the article they wrote for 2017. Wouldn't want to waste a good smear piece.

McDonnel is out. No idea who the left(or indeed the right) will rally behind.

by generic on Sat Dec 14th, 2019 at 11:05:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Keep doing what you're doing. That'll help.

Schengen is toast!
by epochepoque on Mon Dec 16th, 2019 at 09:20:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Strange Death of Social-Democratic England -- NY Review of Books
The polling evidence was always equivocal on whether a second referendum was really the solution Remainers ultimately sought (that is, undoing the 2016 result), but what is not in doubt is that the Remain case was hobbled by a lack of coherent political leadership. The Labour Party, always the main opposition party to the Conservatives in a two-party-dominated parliamentary system, bears a heavy responsibility for declining to lead the opposition to Brexit [...]

Perhaps the greatest tragedy of Brexit for Labour, though, is not that it failed to lead opposition to Brexit but that it agreed to the referendum in the first place. This was a catastrophic error. The idea of holding a Brexit plebiscite was a Conservative election pledge; Labour not only was not bound by the policy, but could have opposed it, labelling it a "Tory referendum," refusing to participate in the pre-referendum campaigning, denying it legitimacy, and repudiating any result. In the 2015 parliamentary debate on the referendum-enabling legislation, Labour's foreign affairs spokesman said what was transparently true and everyone could see: that the Conservatives' motivation in holding a referendum was "in order to try to deal with splits." Yet here was the Labour Party supporting passage of the bill.

Why on earth help out your political enemy with its internal divisions? The result has been that the Conservatives have emerged reunited, stronger than ever, while Labour itself has been riven and weakened by splits over Brexit.

by das monde on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 07:48:41 PM EST
It never crossed the Blairite minds Leave would win.  

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Mon Dec 16th, 2019 at 05:11:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
People like swashbuckling swagger, rascally braggadocio and 'Joke 'em if they can't take a fuck' attitudes more than gentle reason and mild demeanour.
Corbyn attempted to lead from behind, or sideways, or something... he doesn't have the fire for alleycat politics, too well-mannered, a natural gentleman.
He doesn't pander and lacks the instinct for the jugular, so his becoming a cult of personality was never going to happen, ego too small. (A Good Thing).

I was in the USA when Reagan was elected and saw there and then how people would rather be led from the front, confidently, right off a cliff than not be led at all, to have to make their own minds up was anathema.

Boris' naked desire to be PM, re-invent bulldog Churchillism, and venal tenacity impress folk who lack those dubious qualities and imagine their lives more successful were they to adopt them. Jettisoning principle is profitable, no more speedbumps on the highway to hell success!
Bluff and bluster was all Boris had on offer, but it knocked the socks off Corbyn's more diffident understated style, the kindly, diffident uncle less attractive than the maverick chancer blithely chuntering his way to the trough.

Will Labour drift rightwards and re-Blairise, losing those 2 million new Momentum voters?

Boris was pulling beer with one of his buds from the Brexit party in a pic I saw yesterday. The caption mentioned this git had made 44 million pounds sterling overnight betting on the market, betting on Boris.

Umbrellas ready? That trickle-down should be on its way shortly.

If chlorine chicken is good enough for red-blooded Americans, Brits wll get to like it well enough. Just up the curry quotient. Try more HP! Couldn't be worse than Spam, right?

(No strangers to pink slime and mystery meat then)

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Dec 15th, 2019 at 11:55:32 PM EST
by Bernard (bernard) on Thu Dec 19th, 2019 at 07:41:28 PM EST
Dementia is a terrible disease and in the news lately ... it seems as most voters suffer from memory loss ... doesn't really matter to lie and misrepresent the Brexit toll of the last twelve months. Why bother with facts when we live by the day and one has a 24 hr. news cycle. Trump lasts ... so will Boris for the next five years. 🌚😎

'Sapere aude'
by Oui (Oui) on Thu Dec 19th, 2019 at 08:40:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Six things Boris Johnson is going to pass while you're not looking

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing, nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen
by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Fri Dec 20th, 2019 at 01:18:45 PM EST
Not looking??? 😖😖

Ever since the exit poll results I've my eyes shut, knowing the Tory Brexiteers will scavange the countryside and build on Conservative policy to enhance inequality ... no illusions whatsoever!

Knowing BoJo and Cummings can't be stopped, I need to take care not to be stressed out and be traumatized.

Next phase of fascism is qualifying the opposition as leftist ... will be vilified, bullied and called traitors of Great Britain ... goodness, the terror acts will be helpful after all.

See my new diary 😠

'Sapere aude'

by Oui (Oui) on Fri Dec 20th, 2019 at 02:09:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hostile press coverage aimed at the Labour Party at the 2019 election was more than double the intensity found during 2017's poll, according to a study of the two campaigns.

Researchers at Loughborough University, who have been tracking political news coverage, also found that British newspapers were half as critical of the Conservative Party in this month's election as they were in the one two years ago.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing, nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen
by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Sat Dec 21st, 2019 at 12:55:46 PM EST
Who Could Have Predicted?
by Bernard (bernard) on Sat Dec 21st, 2019 at 05:26:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by das monde on Sat Dec 21st, 2019 at 08:41:15 PM EST
by generic on Mon Dec 23rd, 2019 at 10:22:19 AM EST
Forgot the link
by generic on Mon Dec 23rd, 2019 at 10:37:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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