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Compromise on the backstop would solve nothing now

by Frank Schnittger Thu Aug 8th, 2019 at 11:00:42 AM EST

The Irish Independent, the highest circulation Irish daily newspaper, has published my letter to the editor in full and as the lead letter on its letters page:


Letters to the Editor: 'Compromise on the backstop would solve nothing now'

The core weakness of Leo Varadkar's position is that a no-deal Brexit would create a hard customs Border with Northern Ireland - precisely the outcome his insistence on the backstop is designed to avoid.

Consequently, there are increasing calls from Fianna Fáil's Timmy Dooley and in the media for Mr Varadkar to back down from his insistence on the backstop in order to enable the passage of the Withdrawal Agreement through the House of Commons. In my view there are at least four flaws in this argument:

  1. It is becoming increasingly clear even removing the backstop from the Withdrawal Agreement entirely wouldn't guarantee its passage through the House of Commons. Hardline Brexiteers actually seem to want a no-deal Brexit.

  2. The EU has staked its entire position and credibility on avoiding a hard customs Border in Ireland (which they know would be a smugglers' paradise in any case). For Mr Varadkar to cave on this now would be like a stab in the back, undermining perhaps the most impressive display of EU solidarity in its history. He would lose all credibility with his EU peers were he to let them down now.

  3. Although there are isolated calls for compromise now, the moment Mr Varadkar concedes he and his party are consigned to electoral history. Fine Gael has never quite recovered from perceptions of being soft on patriotism by agreeing to the partition of Ireland as part of the 1922 peace settlement with Great Britain in the first place. This caused a civil war and an enduring split in Irish politics. To cave in to British bluff and bluster would be a national humiliation and would give Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin the boost they badly need.

  4. Compromising on the backstop would be seen as a betrayal of the people of Northern Ireland, who have benefited from border-less travel and trade with the Republic since the Good Friday Agreement and who voted by a large majority against Brexit. Many in the North (and not just nationalists) are also Irish citizens and would lose the EU dimension of that citizenship and the protections of their identity in the Good Friday Agreement if the backstop is dropped.

The bottom line: We are where we are, and there is no going back.

----------

I have been a little concerned at the number of calls in the Irish media for Varadker to "show flexibility" and to compromise on the Irish backstop. Usually these calls are couched in well meaning terms of recognising the long and close association we have with the UK and the danger the current sharp deterioration in that relationship poses for our economy going forward.

Sometimes they are couched in quite vituperative terms by writers such as Bruce Arnold who used to be the lead political writer for the Irish Independent. Generally they betray quite a servile attitude to the UK. It is as if the sharp deterioration in the Irish British relationship caused by Brexit is somehow all our own fault.

Arnold, in an opinion article for the Daily Telegraph published on Wednesday, delivered a scathing assessment of the Government's policy and approach to Brexit.


"This is tough right now, being a proud and loyal British subject who has lived in, and loved, Ireland for more than 60 years," he wrote in the piece, headlined `Bought by Brussels, little Ireland's ridiculous leaders have landed it in a Brexit crisis'.

"What is tough is watching the ridiculous behaviour of the Taoiseach Leo Varadkar and his foreign minister, Simon Coveney, trying to destroy, like wilful children, relations with an ancient and friendly neighbour.

"Whatever faults the British may have, they understand independence and freedom. I can understand why they mock the ridiculous behaviour of these two men.

"Varadkar and Coveney are both members of Fine Gael, a party that has its roots in the fight 100 years ago to secure independence and freedom for Ireland. Yet now here they are trying to block the UK's path to the same independence and freedom."

Claiming that the British understand "independence and Freedom" and likening the fight for Brexit to the Irish fight for Independence are two canards which come up frequently in Brexiteer comments direct at the Irish. From an Irish perspective describing the UK as "an ancient and friendly neighbour" beggars belief, and their understanding of independence and freedom seems much more like an obsession with dominance and control: Comparing Brexit with the fight for Irish freedom when many people died or were executed by the British is hugely insulting.

And while the UK tabloids have been having a field day heaping personal abuse on "little Leo" Varadker and Simon Coveney, one would have expected a little more cop-on from "a leading Irish political correspondent". Such abuse merely increases the political support for Varadker and Coveney in Ireland and further diminishes the UK in Irish eyes. Arnold went on to describe Theresa May's approach to the Brexit negotiations as "painful and embarrassing stuff", and was highly critical of the EU's treatment of the UK:

"The European Parliament had a brief walk-on part in the humiliations - to approve the draft agreement. They seemed from time to time to be sniggering behind their hands at this unfortunate woman who was betrayed on all sides."

Arnold, who has written for several newspapers including The Irish Times, the Irish Press, the Sunday Independent, and the Guardian, accused Dublin of acting as "cheerleader for these tormentors".

"Yet their cheerleading operates in terms that make no sense at all," he said. "Varadkar and Coveney are increasingly uncertain fools. Their desire to be players in a game they don't understand is causing their clothing to unravel and their minds to lose their way.

"Their determination to work against the UK's desire for a smooth and prosperous Brexit will in the end leave Ireland diplomatically estranged from its most important trade and political partner.

"With some satisfaction I see that public opinion in Ireland is at last questioning their policies."

Arnold, who was awarded an OBE in 2003 "for services to Irish journalism and Anglo-Irish relations", said Brussels was using the "spaniel-like euro-eagerness" of the Government "for its own ends".

He added: "Once Brussels gets what it wants, it will dump all interest in Irish concerns.

"What Varadkar and Coveney are doing is helping Brussels to block the path for the UK government to implement the democratic decision of the British people to leave the EU. There was a referendum. The people gave their decision.

"And yet a Dublin government which brags that it is republican and democratic denigrates this decision as populism. It colludes with the EU to try to have the decision dismissed and resisted."

The European Parliament can be forgiven for a little schadenfreude given the abuse it has constantly endured from Nigel Farage and friends. And for the umpteenth time Arnold repeats the canard that Ireland is somehow trying to prevent the UK implementing the democratic decision of the British people. It is not: if the UK wants to engage in an act of self-harm, that is their prerogative. But the Irish Government has a responsibility to ensure that Irish interests are protected as much as possible from the damage that will inevitably be caused by the Brexit process.

In short Bruce Arnold, like many Brexiteers, seems to have a problem with Ireland acting independently of Britain, and puts it down to Varadker and Coveney acting like Spaniels eager to please their EU masters. Arnold for his part, seems to have repaid the OBE he was awarded "for services to Irish journalism and Anglo-Irish relations" in spades. He won't be getting any awards from Irish sources for this article.

Northern Irish unionist commentator, Newton Emerson, has written that:

What everyone in Northern Ireland actually sees is a rise in British nationalism provoking a rise in Irish nationalism. That leads nowhere but disaster, as all good Europeans ought to know.

He may have a point. But what is striking, from an Irish perspective, is how slow and measured that Irish nationalist response has been. Fine Gael is the least nationalist major Irish political party, and Varadker and Coveney and the Irish government in general have been moderate and reasoned in response to much provocation by British and DUP media and politicians.

Varadker, in particular, may have been doing too much talking about the possibilities and risks of a United Ireland for this writer's tastes, as I think the two issues are separate and shouldn't be confused with one another in official government communications. But even those pronouncements have been moderate and cautious and within the context of the Good Friday Agreement.

A little more respect from British media, commentators and politicians wouldn't go amiss. Ireland may soon become the only friend the UK still has within the EU, not that we can expect much thanks for it. Perhaps, in some ways, Brexit could be the making of Ireland as an independent country as well: forcibly removed from over-dependence on Irish/UK trading links and dominance by their media and companies like Tesco importing almost solely British brands.

There is nothing too wrong with that in an EU context: it is normal for a small country to have a heavy dependency on a much more powerful close neighbour. But at least the EU guarantees us a near equal voice at the table, something we never enjoyed as a colony of Great Britain. I am viscerally opposed to fanatical nationalism within a European context because of all the senseless wars it has caused, but Bruce Arnold and his ilk may make an Irish nationalist of me yet...

Display:
Great stuff Frank ... as always! The Irish and the blog community can be rightly proud and thankful for your "stubbornness" or should I say perseverance and knowledge of Brexit. 😉 🥺

Global Warming - distance between America and Europe is steadily increasing.
by Oui on Thu Aug 8th, 2019 at 11:44:10 AM EST
It would be absolutely idiotic for the EU to compromise on the backstop.  It would validate the Leaver's belief the EU will back down when faced with intransigence.  

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Thu Aug 8th, 2019 at 03:04:33 PM EST
Not to mention the simple fact that the backstop should be there on the merits. And it's the Brits' best friend, it seems to me, because if you remove the backstop, there's very little point in the EU bothering with Britain outside of sorting a few things out on the rights of EU nationals in Britain and British nationals in Europe (where everybody seems to be on the same page).

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Aug 10th, 2019 at 11:52:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Have these people (Arnold and its ilk) realized that the Republic of Ireland is an independent country?

Reading them, it always feel like Ireland is still a Crown dependency and the ROI is illegally occupying a part of the UK.

A little more respect from British media, commentators and politicians wouldn't go amiss.

All Europeans have stopped expecting that long ago.
by Bernard on Thu Aug 8th, 2019 at 06:23:03 PM EST
Irish ex-diplomats claim Britain does not engage very willingly with Ireland
"The British do not engage very willingly with or about Ireland, " Ó hUigínn says. "Burke said that the English have only one ambition in relation to Ireland, which is to hear no more about it. And that is still not a bad working maxim if you want to analyse British relations.

"When they have to focus on it, there is another mechanism which comes into play which I would call the Irish anomaly. Something that would be taken very seriously in another context can be disregarded if it comes with an Irish label. The Border is a classic example of this.

"Why didn't the British focus on the fact that they had an extensive land border with the European Union? The answer is that it was in Ireland. It wasn't serious."

An exhibit of this, he argues, were comments made by former UK Brexit secretary David Davis just days after the initial Brexit joint report first containing the backstop, the insurance policy to avoid a hard Border, was signed in December 2017.

Davis told the BBC the backstop was "much more a statement of intent than it was a legally enforceable thing".

"He gave a very broad wink to the British public," says Ó hUigínn. "This is Irish stuff. Don't take it too seriously. And I think there's a kind of psychological shock among the Tories that the Europeans don't seem to grasp this fundamental convention."

Michael Lillis, who was a diplomatic adviser to Garret Fitzgerald and was a negotiator of the Anglo-Irish Agreement, also says there have been "numerous very difficult moments" and "a lot of obdurate, of almost blind attitudes by the British".

What you hear in the public space is the bit of the iceberg that's above the water and there's a lot more to it underneath

While acknowledging the difficulties caused by Brexit, he says "it's been much more difficult several times in the past".

"People would find that surprising, but I've been through dealing with Northern Ireland in one way or another since the early 1970s. [Conservative UK prime minister Edward] Heath made it very clear that Northern Ireland was none of the business of Dublin.

"This was in the middle of the worst period of violence that we've had in the 30 years, mainly Provisional IRA violence of course, but also disastrous policies by the British like internment, other disasters like Bloody Sunday. And you know eventually, in both instances, we got over it."

Lillis believe Boris Johnson, the British prime minister, will lead the UK to a no-deal Brexit at the end of October, while Ó Uigínn says "they will crash out or they will leave, certainly".

"I think Boris Johnson is determined that there will be no issue between himself and Brexit as he goes toward an election," he adds. "And that's why he has to avoid the practical stuff which is messy and go for the Agincourt.



Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sat Aug 10th, 2019 at 11:14:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Why didn't the British focus on the fact that they had an extensive land border with the European Union? The answer is that it was in Ireland. It wasn't serious."

That's a really essential question.

I can't do better than the answer offered there. With just a quibble on the tense of the verb: should be "is" not "was". When you see Boris calling on "common sense" wrt the border, you just know neither he nor anyone else in power takes the problem seriously. Neither in its inter-Irish dimension, nor its European dimension.

Boris, tell us: what part of "extensive land border with the European Union" do you not understand?

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Sat Aug 10th, 2019 at 11:30:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There has been absolutely no attempt to engage with either Ireland or the EU since Boris became PM. The British are still negotiating with themselves. I presume the game plan is to win a general election on a no deal platform, preferably after no deal has already happened. If there is one thing more pathetic than the performance of successive British governments since 2016, it has been the collective performance of those opposed to their policies...

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sat Aug 10th, 2019 at 12:31:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Seems to me, naive American viewpoint, that the Irish question boils down to whether NI is worth supporting. It is a tiny part of the UK economy, it is politically reactionary, it is inhabited by extremists who refuse to cooperate or compromise on anything, the arguments are based on old grievances and obscure religious claim, etc. Just a pain in the neck every way you look at it.

If it were not for May and her election problems that led to needing DUP support, by far the easiest thing would be to toss NI overboard and let it merge with the rest of Ireland. If the DUP can't provide enough parliamentary votes to BoJo for him to maintain a Conservative majority, their power evaporates--and with it any English concern about NI.

by asdf on Sat Aug 10th, 2019 at 05:47:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So many diabolical options, so much time.

Have you considered a US-UK Chagos option for NI?

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Sat Aug 10th, 2019 at 06:00:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We've got Keflavik in Iceland already, plus a few other sites in Europe. Why would we put up with the hassles of NI?
by asdf on Sun Aug 11th, 2019 at 12:47:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not a bad idea. Buy the land, make everybody leave, turn it into a permanent US military outpost. Build some nuclear missile silos, build a giant wall, the best radar air defenses, etc. And, finally, Trump would have a source of "good" immigrants he doesn't hate, because they're white.
by Zwackus on Sun Aug 11th, 2019 at 02:26:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the IRA wouldn't want to go to the USA, far too violent

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Aug 11th, 2019 at 02:45:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Didn't people use to go around collecting for the IRA in the Boston, MA, area?
There's a proud tradition of supporting Freedom Fighters!

-----
sapere aude
by Number 6 on Thu Aug 15th, 2019 at 10:40:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey. Trump is eyeing up Greenland, he could make an offer to the Orangepersons that might appeal to their settler spirit -- it may well be heading for a new climate optimum, after all.

The Catholics can just go back to whatever shithole Free State they came from.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Fri Aug 16th, 2019 at 08:47:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is a pretty solid bet, I would say, that one of his casting couch generals showed him a picture similar to this one, and his response was something about how the US of A needed to be the biggest and best player in the Arctic. Obviously a sh*thole country like Denmark doesn't deserve such a huge presence up there in polar bear land.

by asdf on Fri Aug 16th, 2019 at 01:45:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Boris, tell us: what part of "extensive land border with the European Union" do you not understand?

For Boris and his ilk, the UK doesn't have an extensive land border with the EU; the EU has an extensive land border with the UK.  Hence it's the EU's issue to solve, not the UK's.

by rifek on Sat Aug 10th, 2019 at 11:49:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Multiple theories out there about cheap Chinese goods flooding English market, cheap Australian beef flooding English market, cheap counterfeit "made in UK" goods flooding English market, etc. Maybe the English would find it necessary to build a wall themselves...
by asdf on Sun Aug 11th, 2019 at 12:51:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
An apologetic persosn who worked on VoteLeave says some interesting things, from 6:00



keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Aug 11th, 2019 at 03:23:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
After 7 min I turned it off .. confused and in search of an exit for someone to blame for a faulty decision ... a long winding mea culpa.

In a short version: "I was ignorant of the facts."

Global Warming - distance between America and Europe is steadily increasing.

by Oui on Sun Aug 11th, 2019 at 05:33:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
well yes, I doubt you can really be a leaver and not be "ignorant of the facts". I thought it was more interesting to see how even people who were relatively well informed managed to put themselves into a campaign mindset where the news cycle was dominant and inconvenient facts were simply there to be dismissed rther than addressed in a debate about the UK's future.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Aug 11th, 2019 at 06:00:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Also interesting to hear that Ireland just wasn't on anyone's thought agenda in the Leave campaign. No doubt some people at the top were aware it was a gnarly problem, and therefore to be dismissed, filed under Project Fear or Year 2K. Above all not addressed (still the case).

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen
by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Sun Aug 11th, 2019 at 06:23:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
At the time of the election they'd really swallowed their Kool Aid that they were gonna have full tariff free access to EU markets as before, but with the ability to do their own trade deals.

So, Ulster's stuation wasn't going to change, so why worry?

It only became a problem when reality gnawed through their herd of unicorns

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Aug 11th, 2019 at 08:56:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"intelligent" but certainly NOT well informed in particular where you make mention of the "news cycle". First thing the blog community speaks of ... the MSM and lack of insight. Speaking of the "Union" but lacking knowledge of NI, Belfast and the "troubles" seems to me a contradiction. Certainly a studied person should be qualified to see through propaganda. The "Leave" movement campaign was purely build on propaganda feeding on nationalist feelings. For all clear to see ... emotions win elections, not rationale.

By chance a forewarning the states Trump would win ... supporting the #VoteLeave campaign. Alt-right support.



Global Warming - distance between America and Europe is steadily increasing.
by Oui on Sun Aug 11th, 2019 at 06:39:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
tbh the "Union" is really an expression of Greater England. It's what Home counties Tories cleave to to make themselves seem rooted in our Imperial past.

Equally, in Ulter (and to a lessser extent in Scotland), it is a prop for politicians who fear irrelevance unless bolstered by the financial clout of Big Brother.

It's like the "Special Relationship", it's a confession of weakness rather than of strength

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Aug 11th, 2019 at 08:54:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The British are deluded about Germany's fear of a no-deal Brexit
Last month Ola Kaellenius, the new chief executive of Daimler AG, had a discreet meeting with German chancellor Angela Merkel in Berlin.

The two had a lot to talk about and their the meeting, scheduled for 40 minutes, ran on for more than an hour. Yet those present say one issue didn't even cross their lips: Brexit.

After the June 2016 vote, Merkel insisted on political carte blanche in looming talks and warned German industry not to harass her with special pleading over their UK business. Managers agreed and, three years on, that agreement has held.

Yet a competing narrative has stabilised itself during the same period in Brexit Britain: that Berlin will yield to its powerful car lobby to avoid a no-deal departure and, if necessary, Germany will sell the Irish down the river to keep the British market open for Daimler, VW and BMW.

Anything may happen between now and October 31st. But there have been no signs so far from Berlin - on or off the record - that the British narrative will come to pass.



Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sat Aug 10th, 2019 at 11:30:47 AM EST
The idea that the German car industry would gang up on the chancellor to shore up a 20 per cent stake of their dwindling EU market is wishful thinking. That such thinking refuses to go away is an indication of British self-delusion. That such British self-delusion has penetrated many Irish minds - on Brexit and beyond - tells a story all its own.

Our shared language makes it almost impossible to escape the framing, messaging and spin emerging from our larger neighbour. Though loyal consumers of domestic media, many Irish also graze on British news throughout the day on their phones, leave Sky News running as they're cooking dinner and tune into the BBC news and Newsnight before bed.

Knowing what the British are thinking and talking about in the Brexit debate is crucial. But not knowing what other big European neighbours are thinking and talking about is careless, even negligent.

The internet and cable/satellite television have opened up Europe and the world to us, but when was the last time you tuned into France24 reports on Brexit, or dipped into talk shows on DW - Germany's (largely English-language) equivalent of the BBC World Service?

Ireland's history in the EU to date has been about liberating itself economically from its larger neighbour.

Instead, laziness and habit traps people on their sofas, inside a monolingual bubble, eating the Brexit crisps on offer from the UK.



Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Sat Aug 10th, 2019 at 11:40:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I read an interesting article on dKos last week, about how the German car industry painted itself into a corner on the internal combustion engine and is now woefully behind on developing 21st century technology electric vehicles. Something which is hurting it badly on its main export market of china.

However, I suspect that they are planning to use the excuse of brexit to get the EU to pay for the R&D and re-tooling they declined to pay for themselves by way of brexit compensation.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Aug 11th, 2019 at 02:57:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Heck, the French car industry (Renault, Peugeot, Valeo...) will want in too. And they are not late to the EV party, but money is money.
(there's more to the EU than Germany)
by Bernard on Sun Aug 11th, 2019 at 03:59:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure what constitutes high tech in electric cars, but I bought an i3 a couple years ago and I've never been more pleased with a new car. It goes. It stops. It's built to last. I drove Japanese, American, German and French EVs before buying, but in respect to actually driving a car, the BMW was as good as any, and better than most.
Cars aren't phones.
by Andhakari on Sun Aug 11th, 2019 at 05:20:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem with the traditional car companies, not only in Europe but everywhere, is that they think they need to be car companies. The outlier is Telsa, which sells a great car but more importantly has an extensive charging network. Porsche, for example, is going on and on about their new EV, but where will people plug it in? They need both a great car and a charging network.

EVs are disruptive. The existing car companies don't seem to get what they need to do to respond.

Tesla charger maps.

by asdf on Sun Aug 11th, 2019 at 05:34:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm blessed to live in the EV paradise of Norway, and finding a charging point of whatever flavour is not in the least difficult here. Replicating Norway's incentive programs would be a good place to start for any country seeking to expand the purchase and use of EVs.
by Andhakari on Sun Aug 11th, 2019 at 06:00:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Telsa, which sells a great car

I'm really not much into cars, so can't really evaluate Tesla the car, but ol Musky is one of the most blatant grifters since Theranos.

by generic on Sun Aug 11th, 2019 at 06:41:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think he has delivered a lot more than most grifters. That is not to say that he is not a grifter...
by asdf on Mon Aug 12th, 2019 at 02:13:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My understanding was that he bought the whole Telsa business plan from that Eberhard guy.
by generic on Mon Aug 12th, 2019 at 11:35:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Lots of Mercedes in the Tesla platform geometry, electrical parts, safety systems, etc. (At least for the model S.) But nevertheless he is selling a lot of them.

His motivation is certainly questionable; Musk obviously straddles the line between genius and insanity.

It seems pretty clear that Porsche have lost track of the fact that they sell a specialist version of a component part of a public transportation system. There's no utilitarian difference between a Porsche and a Toyota. That the basic structure of the transportation system is changing, and thus their position within that system also changing, has not occurred to them. Yet.

Sharing a charging station with a bunch of Fiats and Hondas is not going to provide the Porsche owner with the same class appeal as the Tesla-only stations provided by the competition.

by asdf on Mon Aug 12th, 2019 at 03:47:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Anecdotal, but I noticed on vacation this summer that lots of roadside eateries in Sweden has one or two parking spots with chargers. Probably on an assumption that you will grab a bite to eat while charging.
by fjallstrom on Sun Aug 11th, 2019 at 11:05:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ah, the German car industry, that old chestnut.

You covered this particular delusion in your last year's diary: BMW = Brexit Made Wonderful.

Merkel and the German leadership have always been quite clear; even the Torygraph reported about it back in 2016.

Also, this interesting piece on How Cameron's misreading of Merkel led to Brexit, in the Spectator, of all places

by Bernard on Sat Aug 10th, 2019 at 01:31:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
wut

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Sat Aug 10th, 2019 at 05:19:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What was the old bit about the British newspapers running headlines about "Chunnel shut down, Europe isolated"?

That's Brexit, basically, with all of the wrongness included.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Aug 11th, 2019 at 12:33:34 AM EST
"Fog on the Channel, Continent cut off."

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen
by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Sun Aug 11th, 2019 at 08:46:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Little can be done to stop Johnson crashing UK out of EU
Remarkably, we are now in a situation where, in the name of respecting democracy, the UK is headed for a no-deal exit from the EU that is opposed by a majority of voters and a majority of MPs.

Furthermore, the law that governs the removal of a government and calling of an election means that only the narrowest path to avoiding a no-deal remains open.

The House of Commons is now in recess and will not sit again until September 3rd. Imagine that Jeremy Corbyn, the Labour leader, immediately puts down a motion of no confidence which is debated the next day (September 4th) and is passed with the support of moderate Tory MPs. Under the Fixed Term Parliament Act, this triggers a period of 14 days during which the government must try to win a second confidence vote. If by midnight on September 18th, Boris Johnson has not won a new confidence vote, then an early election is triggered.

However, the legal rules around timing an early general election give the prime minister sufficient scope to delay the vote until after Brexit takes place on October 31st.

In order for dissolution to occur, the queen must be advised by the prime minister to issue a crown proclamation dissolving parliament. This would not occur before September 19th and the proclamation would not take effect until the next day (September 20th).

Under the Fixed Term Parliament Act, an election cannot take place earlier than 25 working days after the dissolution of Parliament. That brings us up to Friday October 25th. UK general elections generally take place on a Thursday meaning the first Thursday available is Brexit day itself, October 31st.



Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Aug 12th, 2019 at 09:59:41 AM EST
Would Boris Johnson dare to cut the British people out of the decision by holding an election too late to let them express their view? The polls suggest that he would not pay a price for doing so. Under the UK's "first past the post" system, you don't need a majority of voters to win and the minority who favour a no-deal exit is large enough to beat a splintered opposition.

A recent ComRes poll shows that in an election held after the UK has left with no deal, the Conservatives are likely win a majority in parliament with 36 per cent ahead of Labour 29 per cent, Liberals 15 per cent and the Brexit Party on 8 per cent. However, if the election happens after the UK has received an extension of article 50, Labour wins with 28 per cent followed by the Brexit Party on 23 per cent with the Tories and Liberals trailing on 22 per cent and 16 per cent. In other words, uniting the pro-no-deal Brexit minority by exiting before an election would benefit Johnson electorally.



Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Aug 12th, 2019 at 10:04:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ain't that the way Pfeffle planned it?

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen
by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Mon Aug 12th, 2019 at 10:12:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Caroline Lucas has reacted to suggest a Parliamentary coup whereby a govt of National Unity is set up comprising Remain voting MPs of all parties, with her suggesting a Cabinet (led by her of course) of women who are, obviously, more sensible than their male counterparts.

Unfortunately, this would ineviably lead to a Cabinet mostly comprised of pro-austerity privatisers who would (presumably) be perfect to sort out the mess caused by a bunch of pro-austerity privatisers.

Which begs the question : A National unity to do what precisely? Stop a No deal brexit I presume, but how? And replace it with what? The May deal which has been soundly rejected by parliament 3 times? Or stop brexit entirely? This may seem sensible but would probably cause a widespread generational disaffection with UK democracy.

Frankly, even though I'm a staunch Remainer this looks as much of a coup as the one Cummings seems to be proposing to force a No Deal brexit.

I really don't see how you can protect Democracy by subverting democracy anymore than I can understand how you prtect Palriamentary sovereignty by suspending Parliament.

We live in strange times.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Aug 12th, 2019 at 02:42:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Presumably the "government of national unity" would hold office only long enough to request a further A.50 extension, hold a referendum where no deal and remain are the options, and then, perhaps, hold a general election. Alternatively it could hold office just long enough to request a further a.50 extension on the promise of organising a referendum and then hold a general election to elect a government to carry it out.

In practice, the later option would mean "holding office" for only a few weeks, and the A.50 extension request would be the only act of significance it would carry out.

I can't see Corbyn or his supporters agreeing to anyone but him holding the office of PM, however temporarily, and I can't see many dissident Remainer Tories voting for him.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Aug 12th, 2019 at 02:58:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, Parliament chucking the PM and asking the Queen to appoint a new one is not a coup, it's how your country works. I know this is hard for people in the UK to understand given the constant storm of disinformation, but you don't have a presidential system where the PM is directly elected. Since the Tories and Lib Dems broke the system with the FTPA it's become much harder to kill off governments.

The "all woman" bit is marketing - I've seen the suggestion that it was thrown in to actually get coverage - but at least it raises the issue.

There's nothing undemocratic about either extension + referendum or election or even revoking A50, which doesn't stop Brexit, just means it needs to be restarted, hopefully with an actual plan this time if the polity so chooses.

This may seem sensible but would probably cause a widespread generational disaffection with UK democracy.

Do you see any paths forward that don't do that?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 12th, 2019 at 03:05:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do I see any path forwared that doesn't cause widespread disaffection? Yes, I do. But sadly it means to let this play out; for madness, catastrophe and worse.

After 40 years of right wing government, we have reached (I nearly typed retched) a crisis of government in the UK. It might have been avoided if we hadn't had the referendum, but the moment it was declared, let alone voted upon, we were, in hindsight, obviously doomed.

We need to eradicate, not just the parties, but an entire way of thinking. And to do that we have to rub the noses of the English authoritarians in the mud of where their stupidities go. There is no return to Empire, there won't even be a United Kingdom within a decade.

Alll their dreams of global consequence will turn to ash as they realise that politics isn't about identity, culture or sovereignty, it's about power. Those who have the most, get the most. Those who have little, get nothing. The EU is a powerful economy with a lot of global power while England is a little country and has little of anything. And the Little Englanders need to have that smashed into their skulls with baseball cricket bats.

I do not say this lightly. I fear there will be starvation, riots and national disorder leading to many, many deaths. We cannot save ourselves because there is no way out of the corner we are painted into.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Aug 12th, 2019 at 03:26:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are a lot of depressing YouTube videos about daily life in Britain in the 1970s. I first went there in 1976 and was shocked, coming from a suburban US upbringing.

It is hard to believe that nostalgia for that period would be supportable, even through the most powerful rose-colored glasses.

Although apparently there is some nostalgia for the USSR, too. I suppose having social systems that provide basic necessities has some advantages.

by asdf on Mon Aug 12th, 2019 at 03:54:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I tend to look back on it as a period when there was a lot wrong with the UK, but that the solutions offered by thacher were just a cocaine rush that left us in a worse place.

We had cheap housing available for nearly everybody, if there were no jobs, there was a generous benefit scheme that meant that nobody went without food, clothing, warmth or shelter, we had a functioning NHS that kept us all healthy.

Frankly, there's a fuck of a lot of that which would make the US happy right now, let alone the UK.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Aug 12th, 2019 at 04:37:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the nostalgia is more for the 1950s and early '60s, (before the long-hairs took over).

You have to realize that, back then, Typhoo was real tea, Marmite had the proper flavour, Cadbury's Dairy Milk was the way it should be, and my fish and chips came wrapped in newspaper. All of which unelected Brussels bureaucrats have deprived me of.

 

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Tue Aug 13th, 2019 at 08:43:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not only does the UK not have a Presidential system, but it doesn't have a normal parliamentary system where Parliament elects the PM either. The PM is appointed by the Queen, and thereafter she has no choice but to do his bidding, and Parliament doesn't have much control over him either even if it does vote no confidence in him - twice. He can still chose to delay an election until after Brexit day.

The bottom line is that so long as a majority in Parliament can't agree on an alternative plan or leader they are pissing into the wind, or perhaps more accurately, at each other. All their petty squabbles and personal ambitions are more important than stopping what they all claim to be against - a no deal Brexit.

Frankly the entire UK body politic needs to be flushed down the toilet - if they were representing my country I would be utterly appalled.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Aug 12th, 2019 at 04:26:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]


Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Mon Aug 12th, 2019 at 04:40:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
there's only one path out of No Deal.  

Clearly Boris' government doesn't give a damn about a No Deal.

Parliament just won't accept - or cognize - the fact they don't have legislative power over the EU.  So their vote against a No Deal is meaningless.

From what other people here have written, there's no way to prevent Boris, et. al., from forging ahead to a No Deal.  

The path out demands the EU commits suicide.  I'm fairly confident France will veto any move in this direction.  

So: you're fucked.

And speaking of democracy, Brexit is exactly why going to Duh Peepul to give an answer to anything more complicated than "Do You Want Fries/Chips With That?" is a massively stupid idea.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Mon Aug 12th, 2019 at 05:24:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh there is a path out of no deal.

If Boris loses a vote of confidence, the opposition have two weeks to elect an alternative PM designate who can ask for an A.50 extension and announce either a second referendum or a General election.

But could the opposition agree on an alternative PM, even one to serve only 4 weeks to ask for A.50 extension and then call a general election?  Doesn't seem like a lot to ask, but I doubt they could agree on Corbyn, and I doubt he would agree to anyone else...

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Aug 12th, 2019 at 06:48:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's not a path.  That's a fantasy, if you will excuse me for saying it bluntly.  Corbyn doesn't have the votes to win a No Confidence motion.  

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Mon Aug 12th, 2019 at 07:23:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are an awful lot of conservatives who are now out of government and have relatively little to lose.

But I agree with you, its a 1% scenario.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Aug 12th, 2019 at 07:29:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
well that takes us back to the point I made earlier. Caroline Lucas offers herself as a compromise PM, and  I'd say she could be considered a reasonable honest broker.

But to do what,precisely?

A National Unity to do what precisely?
Stop a No deal brexit I presume, but how?

And replace it with what?
The May deal has been soundly rejected by parliament 3 times
Or stop brexit entirely?

This may seem sensible but would probably cause a widespread generational disaffection with UK democracy.

We stare at the probability of national insurrection in so many directions, I can't begin to see a way out. there are no good options, only some which offer a hope of salvaging something from the mess further down the line.

If we cancel brexit, I guarantee there will be riots and probably armed militia on the streets.

If we delay brexit, we're only kicking that can down the orad and that way lies trouble next year.

If we crash out no deal, there will be food riots by spring.

Perhaps if Boris could get May's deal through, it might be the least worst, but he would not survive the humiliation,. Which means he would never do it cos he's a coward when it comes to that.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Aug 12th, 2019 at 07:29:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Which goes back to the original problem: there's no such thing as a Brexit.  There's a horde of mutually exclusive Brexits and May was too fucking stupid to force the Leavers to come-up with a Brexit BEFORE she sent the stupid letter.  

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Mon Aug 12th, 2019 at 07:52:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, she made a basic constitutional mistake : knowing she couldn't get any obtainable deal through Parliament, she tried to push it through on executive authority alone. It was the only plausible solution, but Bercow stymied her.

Now, only Bercow can save the UK.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Wed Aug 14th, 2019 at 11:15:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ten bucks sez the EU will dream up a reason to give them another extension. "Peace is at hand" or something.
by asdf on Mon Aug 12th, 2019 at 08:52:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But the EU cannot unilaterally give an extension. The UK government must ask for one.

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Mon Aug 12th, 2019 at 09:30:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
All the same, communications-wise, the EU would probably be well advised to attempt to throw out a lifeline at the last minute. It would blunt the accusation "EU made me do it".

At least, for those who are listening.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Tue Aug 13th, 2019 at 06:48:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
At least, for those who are listening

A small crowd, then.

by Bernard on Tue Aug 13th, 2019 at 08:20:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Europeans are not entirely subjected to the UK media...

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen
by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Tue Aug 13th, 2019 at 08:24:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Recall that the reason for democracy is to keep the peasants thinking they have a say in policy--so they won't revolt. The trick is to keep them from actually having a say in policy.
by asdf on Mon Aug 12th, 2019 at 08:54:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
right now, my biggest fear is that Boris calls an election timed so that a no deal brexit cannot be stopped. I'm pretty sure that Boris would ensure he loses that election so that he can walk away without having to deal with the consequences of his irresponsibility...AGAIN

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Aug 13th, 2019 at 08:05:07 AM EST
I think that's his plan, for the first part: sideline Parliament and let Brexit happen while blaming the EU.

For the second, I think he wants to get in on the Brexit feelgood bounce (yes, there will be one, that's how many witless wonders there are in the country), with a comfortable Tory majority and be PM for five years. Someone's got to finish the work Margaret Thatcher started (so says Nigel Lawson, who nose everything).

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Tue Aug 13th, 2019 at 08:23:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
From my quote above: "A recent ComRes poll shows that in an election held after the UK has left with no deal, the Conservatives are likely win a majority in parliament with 36 per cent ahead of Labour 29 per cent, Liberals 15 per cent and the Brexit Party on 8 per cent. However, if the election happens after the UK has received an extension of article 50, Labour wins with 28 per cent followed by the Brexit Party on 23 per cent with the Tories and Liberals trailing on 22 per cent and 16 per cent. In other words, uniting the pro-no-deal Brexit minority by exiting before an election would benefit Johnson electorally."

In fact its the only way he can win and win a mandate for himself while reprising Winston's role as a war time PM and leader of "a government of national unity".

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Tue Aug 13th, 2019 at 08:31:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This assumption that Corbyn will prevent a provisional "national unity" government is questionable.

Its only function would be to take the keys off Boris, aske for an Article 50 extension, and organise élections.

Labour would most likely be the biggest party after the élections, so Corbyn would most likely end up Prime Minister.


It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Wed Aug 14th, 2019 at 11:21:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Agreed, but suppose if somebody like Keir Starmer is most acceptable to all anti-no deal factions and is nominated by Parliament for PM. He would have to appoint a cabinet to hold even one meeting to agree to ask for an A.50 extension, agree wording, and appoint a date to prorogue parliament and hold elections.

Keir would remain (albeit "caretaker") PM for the duration of the General Election campaign, hold a few cabinet meetings to deal with day-to-day stuff, and generally look "Prime Ministerial". Would Corbyn take a job in the cabinet, however temporarily? Would Keir have to appoint Lib Dem or ChangeUK/Green/SNP/Plaid cabinet members to be assured of those party's votes?

There would be enormous pressure for Corbyn to stand aside "for the younger man" if the media decide Keir looks good in the job, even if Labour becomes the largest party.  Would anti-no deal parties agree to stand aside for the most favoured candidate to defeat a Brexiteer candidate in the Election? Would they make such a deal conditional on Corbyn standing aside?

Labour, and left wing parties generally put huge stress on being policy rather than personality centred, but would Corbyn and his inner circle agree to him being effectively sidelined in order to create a "government of national unity" and defeat Boris?

I think it's all a bit far fetched, but perhaps the only way a no-deal Brexit can be avoided now. In a mature democracy, that is what would probably happen, but the UK has a very basic democracy which promotes polarisation, extremism, and personality cults.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Wed Aug 14th, 2019 at 12:16:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have yet to see anyone suggesting this national unity government business without immediately moving to the possibility of a "peaceful handover of power" in Labour.
by generic on Wed Aug 14th, 2019 at 12:46:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If plotters are plotting against Corbyn, that would be a relevant reason to nix that setup. Why should Labour accept other parties to select their PM?

In fact, if there is an extension-and-election government, the logical leader of it would be Corbyn, as the leader of the by far largest component of it. Why wouldn't the others accept Corbyn? Presumably because it would benefit Corbyn to be seen in the role as PM, and thus benefit Labour, but in the same way why should Labour accept someone else who would benefit?

So, I guess the only MPs who would be acceptable are MPs who are leaders of minor, geograpically contained parties that can't benefit much. This line of thinking ends with the PM being Liz Saville Roberts from Plaid Cymry or Sylvia Hermon, independent unionist (former UUP) from North Ireland. Not that I know anymore about them than what is mentioned on Wikipedia.

by fjallstrom on Wed Aug 14th, 2019 at 02:04:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by generic on Thu Aug 15th, 2019 at 06:52:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If Parliament votes no confidence in Boris's government, there will be 14 days in which to cobble a new majority together. On his side, Boris will try to win back the Tory renegades who made him fall. On the other side, attempts will be made to put together a provisional coalition. If (1) the former happens, Boris goes ahead as PM (he might want to call an election). If (2) the latter, he will hand over the keys to whoever leads the coalition (who might want to call an election). If (3) neither succeeds, there must be an election because no one commands a majority in Parliament.

In the interim up to the election in case (3), Boris may remain nominally PM. This is all the same subject to an agreement that his government will undertake nothing major or controversial, and will just mind the shop. That agreement has to be passed with the Leader of the Opposition (that's an official position). The LOTO (Corbyn in this case) could perfectly well make a condition that the interim government must not allow anything major to happen by default, in this case a crash-out. This would mean Boris agreeing to request an A50 extension for reason of elections.

It's unlikely Boris would agree, in which case he should stand down. If he refused to resign, that would be uncharted territory. He would have to be sure he could count on the army.

The only case where Corbyn would have a say on a "national unity" or "caretaker" government, would be in case (2), but a coalition is most unlikely, or in case (3), if Boris did the decent thing and resigned. I doubt if Corbyn would refuse, but... It all boils down to, is there a majority in Parliament for an A50 extension? Boris and the Brexiters would immediately attempt to bring down the "unity" government on that question, and they might well succeed.

The above is long and complicated, but it's just to show that it's not simply a matter of Corbyn taking the keys from Boris and requesting an A50 extension.  

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Wed Aug 14th, 2019 at 12:50:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
An extension is probably the only thing that can get a majority. After that, who knows? Election seems most likely, even committing to a referendum seems beyond Labour.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Aug 14th, 2019 at 12:58:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought they have committed to a referendum?
by generic on Wed Aug 14th, 2019 at 01:16:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Some terms and conditions may apply, as far as I can work out.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Aug 14th, 2019 at 03:02:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is zero chance of Corbyn being able to force his version of Brexit - whatever that means - past Parliament and the voters. So there will be a PV, and Brexit will lose.

Corbyn may possibly believe otherwise, but it's clearly not going to happen.

Far more worrying is the prospect of Boris winning a larger majority in the next election. That would more or less guarantee No Deal, and all of the scheduled chaos and horror.

The only upside would be that no one under the age of forty would ever vote Tory. But it might be decades to the next election, so that would be a Pyrrhic victory at best.

I take Helen's point about the general uselessness of Emperor Boris and his cronies, but unfortunately the history of coups in other countries suggests that competence is not necessary for success.

The British aren't very good at mass protests, so all Boris has to do is keep most of the army onside - and their loyalty is probably a given, even after the cuts.

The alternative would be a Corbyn government, and the nation's military leaders aren't interested in that.

A month from now we'll either be in the middle of an election, or in the throes of an outright coup. I'd like to be more optimistic about the former, but I suspect the latter is still a real possibility.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Aug 14th, 2019 at 04:49:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
such as ... ? Trying to identify the relevant third party in this case. For a friend.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Wed Aug 14th, 2019 at 05:47:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the history of coups in other countries suggests that competence is not necessary for success

You don't need a coup to demonstrate that! Exhibit no. 1 is in the US of A right now.

I think predictions of a coup or a revolution or a need for army support are overblown. The most likely thing is for the EU to give an extension, either in response to another request, or as a favor to the UK to give more time for them to come to their senses.

Or, maybe there will be a no-deal Brexit. Guess what, people will have to cope. There will be grumbling and deaths and demonstrations and politicking, lots of blame thrown around--some pointed at the EU which won't care, a broad recession, unemployment, etc. Back to the 1970s, which were survived by most people.

A question in my mind is what would happen after that. Suppose Corbyn's no confidence vote fails, there's a no-deal Brexit on 31 October, and general chaos after. Lots of emergency legislation, ratcheting up of police powers, deficit spending, etc. Boris survives and holds the next election a few years from now, and by then maybe has things under control enough to stay.

And then what? Is Labour going to change its stripes and become a solidly pro-EU organization, working hard for a "rejoin" effort? Are the Liberals going to switch back over to supporting the Conservatives? Are the Conservatives going to use the disruption as an excuse for more austerity, more handouts to the rich, etc.?

It seems like there is a lot of discussion about what might happen leading up to Brexit, but not much about the possibilities after. Cliff edge, then what???

by asdf on Thu Aug 15th, 2019 at 12:03:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No one knows because all of the possible outcomes are impossibly different. So it's impossibly difficult to make a predictions - especially about the future.

And No Deal would be much worse than the 70s, because ND wouldn't just take the UK back a few decades, but would tear the lid off the UK's internal contradictions.

The UK's problems are structural. As a country, it absolutely lacks any kind of long-term goals for the 21st century.

The only people making plans are the Brexiters, and those plans are insane. Remain just wants the status quo, and the status quo isn't going to be enough now.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Aug 15th, 2019 at 11:35:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

by generic on Thu Aug 15th, 2019 at 04:55:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jeremy Corbyn has made a dramatic bid to secure a Commons alliance to block a no-deal Brexit by pledging to be prime minister for a few weeks only - if other parties agree to put him in No 10.

The Labour leader has abandoned a plan to head a minority government to implement his manifesto if Boris Johnson is toppled in a no-confidence vote, and promised to call an immediate general election instead.

The move is designed to break the parliamentary deadlock that threatens to wreck attempts to stop the UK crashing out of the EU on 31 October.

He has also dangled a promise of a Final Say referendum on Brexit, if Labour wins the general election after his "strictly time-limited" caretaker government.

Mr Corbyn hopes to convince the Liberal Democrats, the Scottish Nationalist Party and rebel Tories that he can be trusted to be the leader sent to Brussels to delay Brexit by agreeing an Article 50 extension. However, the Lib Dems have already rejected this offer, claiming he is not the man to build a majority against a no-deal Brexit in the Commons.



Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen
by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Thu Aug 15th, 2019 at 06:01:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
a plan to head a minority government to implement his manifesto

I must say that if he had one of those, he needs his head read.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Thu Aug 15th, 2019 at 07:40:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the Lib Dems have already rejected this offer
Pretty much sums up the whole problem. Even with imminent collapse of everything, partisan bickering takes higher priority.

Speaking the day after Jeremy Corbyn urged opposition leaders to back a Labour plan to topple Johnson, via a no-confidence vote, and install him to lead a caretaker government before a Brexit-based general election, Liberal Democrat leader Jo Swinson said she did not believe his plan was feasible.

Corbyn would not command sufficient support from rebel Tories and independent MPs to form a stable government, Swinson said.

Lib Dems back Clarke or Harman over Corbyn to lead interim government

by asdf on Thu Aug 15th, 2019 at 04:07:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Jonathan Lis in the Guardian:

The new Lib Dem leader risks making a grave mistake. Even in purely party political terms, a Corbyn-led caretaker government does not necessarily strengthen Labour in the long term. But more importantly, Swinson has always emphasised, rightly, that her party's priority is to stop no deal. This could prove the only way to do so. If the Lib Dems really believe that a few months of a limited Corbyn government is worse than medicine shortages, it is their duty to say why.



Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen
by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Thu Aug 15th, 2019 at 06:53:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The callow Swinton called the idea ridiculous, and has been backpedalling ever since, as most of the others concerned told her to stop being a twit.

The leader of the Liberal Democrats, Jo Swinson, has reiterated that she would work with the Labour party to prevent a no-deal Brexit amid pressure from other opposition leaders, but underlined her belief that a Jeremy Corbyn-led unity government would not win the confidence of the House of Commons.

but nobody gives a crap about what she believes.

A Plaid Cymru interim PM would be better, though.

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Fri Aug 16th, 2019 at 09:47:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Looks like Swinton is following in Clegg's footsteps, demonstrating that you don't pay attention to LibDem leaders' policies because they don't have any; you only pay attention to what damage they can do you.
by rifek on Fri Aug 16th, 2019 at 04:37:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Rafael Behr in the Guardian:

The Fixed-term Parliaments Act gives the Commons 14 days to organise a replacement when an incumbent government is defeated in a no-confidence vote. Who else is going to lead that administration if not the leader of Her Majesty's opposition? In constitutional terms he is the obvious candidate; probably the only candidate.

But in the minds of scores of MPs he is not. His past equivocations over Europe are not the reason, or at least not the only reason. Pro-European Tory rebels, Liberal Democrats, the rag-tag platoon of independents and semi-autonomous tribes of Labour MPs have spent months fretting about ways to thwart a hard Brexit, apparently ready to pull every procedural lever and contemplate all manner of unorthodox coalitions. Not much has been excluded from those considerations, except for a tacit prohibition on any route that makes a prime minister of the current Labour leader. Their horror of Corbyn is equal to - or greater than - their horror of Brexit. That has been so well understood by the participants in the discussion that few have felt much need to articulate it. Corbyn's letter now obliges them to spell it out.

(...)

There is something disingenuous about the discussions among MPs about a "government of national unity"(GNU) to avert a no-deal Brexit. It is predicated on concepts of nation and unity that don't include those who are desperate to leave the EU. Those who voted leave are broadly satisfied with the government they currently have. It is, in truth, a euphemism for a model of technocratic, centre-facing liberal administration defined as much by a rejection of Corbynism as by revulsion at the Trumpian nationalist character that Brexit has acquired.

(...)

The Labour leader knows this and he is calling the whole GNU bluff. If a government falls, the opposition leader is the next in line to have a go and, if that can't be arranged, there is an election. That is how it works. There might be many reasons why MPs do not want an opposition leader to take charge - that is their constitutional right, too - reasons of tactical political advantage and reasons of conscience. But MPs have not all been candid about what those reasons are; why it is that so many find Corbyn as toxic as Brexit. Their problem is that there aren't a lot of other options. And the laws of political motion are working against them.



Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen
by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Thu Aug 15th, 2019 at 06:47:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
many find Corbyn as toxic as Brexit

If that is their thinking, there is no hope. Prime Minister is a temporary position, can be revoked or renewed at almost any time, has some political power but works within the existing state institutions. Brexit, on the other hand, is a permanent change, subject to possible renewal on a time scale that probably exceeds a decade, and has reams of impacts that are not even partially under the control of the state.

Corbyn should be made PM in order to back out of Brexit, then he should be replaced by whoever can get the job. The tactics at this point should have nothing to do with whether you like any particular politician, they are (or should be) entirely about avoiding Brexit.

Seems to me, naive American, that politicians saying "we oppose Brexit but will not support Corbyn" are simply Brexiteers.

by asdf on Fri Aug 16th, 2019 at 12:30:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Polls of Tory members have shown they hate and fear Corbyn more than even the threat of the break-up of the UK or of Brexit not happening at all. This is a totally irrational position for them to take, but then politics is often more about emotions than rationality. Right now its about not handing a victory (however temporary) to someone they hate and fear.

Rationally it shouldn't matter all that much who is the temporary caretaker PM as long as he/she requests and receives an A.50 extension long enough to call an election and possibly a referendum thereafter - and then actually calls the election.

Someone like Ken Clarke would be ideal to attract dissident Tories because of his Tory pedigree, ministerial experience, and (presumably) lack of personal ambition. Conceivably he could even offer not to stand in the election so he can "focus exclusively on his caretaker PM responsibilities" and not pose a threat to anyone else's PM ambitions.

However Corbyn is also in an exceptionally strong negotiating position, because only he can deliver the vast bulk of the votes required to elect any temporary PM. He may therefore feel no need to reward another Tory and can satisfy the minimal Lib Dem/dissident Tory demand that any temporary PM be not Corbyn by nominating his own choice as long term successor as leader of the Labour Party.

I don't know who his choice of potential successor might be, but provided it's not a hard-left choice also unacceptable to dissident Tory and Labour MPs but widely acceptable within the Labour party (and ideally the wider public), it doesn't much matter who it is. All anti-no deal Brexit MPs would be let off the hook of having to support Corbyn and be able to rally to the support of "anybody but Corbyn or Boris" on the grounds that it is a temporary appointment in the name of a greater cause.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Aug 16th, 2019 at 11:11:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't really follow the argument. Every Tory who votes for Corbyn, any Labour MP or to stop Brexit will end his carreer. If it isn't the rabid Tory base that turfs them out it's going to be the Brexit party. If they decide to suicide for the good of the country some faction of capital that stand to suffer they'll probably do so for a considerable payout. On the other hand the LibDems are a single issue anti-Brexit party. At least from the voter perspective, they don't seem so sure themselves. If they give that up they'll go back to their post coalition core if even that.
On the other hand, if Corbyn allows someone else to lead the interim gov the media will absolutely treat him as the new defacto Labour leader. I'd give it 90% odds that the PLP would try a new coup around that person.
by generic on Fri Aug 16th, 2019 at 02:23:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The first person in line for leading a caretaker government (supposing Boris must resign) is the Leader of Her Majesty's Opposition. That is an official post, and the person who occupies it has the first shot, by convention, at forming a majority. The Leader of the Opposition is Jeremy Corbyn, and he will be point man. Suggestions of meritorious others at this stage are fluff and/or smokescreens (eg Swinson's proposal of the longest-serving MPs).

Corbyn has committed to a clear plan:

  1. Request A50 extension
  2. Organize elections and accept their result
  3. Abstain from any contentious governmental action in the interim

That is in accordance with convention re interim governments, and should not be an obstacle for any anti-no-dealer.

MPs who are against no deal may refuse to accept that plan under Corbyn, but it would be extraordinary if they managed to cobble a majority together under anyone else - given that a rejected Corbyn is not obliged to play ball, and he commands by far the largest chunk of opposition votes. He therefore has a quite reasonable chance of success. If Swinson has to eat her hat, no problem, politicians do that all the time. Some people just have to decide what it is they want. And, if they blow this chance, then they will have been objective allies of no-deal.

But of course, don't sell the bearskin before you've killed the bear. Boris first has to lose a vote of confidence.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Fri Aug 16th, 2019 at 02:58:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Honestly, at this point I think the important thing is that we've gone from an interim government being a laughable idea to something they're fighting about the leadership of, with two weeks still left in August.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Aug 16th, 2019 at 03:54:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Coincidentally, that is the main point of the lesser ego

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Aug 16th, 2019 at 06:44:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's hard to blame the EU when it has twice given an A.50 extension and when you haven't even met any EU leaders to persuade them to change something in the Withdrawal Agreement. The whole point of the burgeoning "do deal" movement is that they want "a clean break" and no further "entanglement" with the EU whatsoever.

Of course it will be all the EU's fault when UK/EU trade breaks down altogether because "they hate us for our freedom" and they "want to punish Britain" and because they can't compete with Great Britain in a free trade world. The EU will be portrayed as an extension of the Soviet Union (or a fourth Reich) opposed to "western" ideas of free-wheeling capitalism.

With a radically devalued Pound and eviscerated workers rights, consumer protections, and environmental standards the UK may even "succeed" for a while, until they realise there is no competing with Singapore and the far east, no matter how far down your wages go and how many Billionaires, Oligarchs and tin-pot dictators you can attract to your shores. Rampant internal inequality and social unrest, not to mention the break-up of the Union is what will bring the whole thing crashing down.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Tue Aug 13th, 2019 at 08:45:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"It's hard to blame the EU"

The Brexiteers don't mind hard work. In fact, the spin is already in. The UK has made "common-sense" suggestions (the backstop is dead, anyone can see that) that the EU refuses to recognize and will not negotiate on.

Agreed, when the shit hits the fan there'll be nowhere to run to beyond blaming the Soviet EU bloc.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Tue Aug 13th, 2019 at 08:56:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Seems to me the EU would ignore any blame directed in its direction, and turn aside to focus on EU problems. What do they care about blame? It's just an internal English political scoring point.
by asdf on Thu Aug 15th, 2019 at 03:57:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What is the timeline that would result in an election before 31 October? That's only 11 weeks from now. Is there a magical company over there that can retroactively print ballots for a question that has not even been formulated yet?
by asdf on Tue Aug 13th, 2019 at 03:00:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The timeline for an election is described here. No need to formulate a question for that. Last time a referendum took several months months to organise even when the question was deceptively straightforward. The Brits really aren't very good at this sort of thing, which isn't even part of their "constitution" such as it is...

If they decide they need to organise BOTH an election and a referendum, a further A.50 extension of at least 6 months and probably until July would be required. And that is assuming there is a clear Parliamentary majority for whatever is proposed.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Tue Aug 13th, 2019 at 03:28:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Reuters: UK PM expects EU to cave in to save Ireland from 'no-deal' Brexit (the Sun)

A no-deal Brexit would hurt Ireland the most and Johnson is convinced European leaders will budge over the key issue of the so-called Irish backstop, the Sun said.


"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Tue Aug 13th, 2019 at 12:20:55 PM EST
The Sun.....

I'm afraid that Tom Newton-Dunn (Sun's political editor) has been parroting the brexiteers political line unashamedly since he took over from the extremely evil Trevor Kavanagh.

I'm sure that's what Cummings/de Pfeffle want the rubes to think. However I'm I doubt they think that themselves, cos they actually want a no deal brexit.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Aug 13th, 2019 at 01:02:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So when does Bojo think the EU leaders are going to budge on this? He's not even talking to them. I'm with Helen on this: he may want to be able to blame EU leaders' intransigence for a no deal Brexit, but a no deal Brexit is what he actually seems to want.

A proposed meeting with Varadker never seems to happen. Maybe this is all about ramping up the psychological pressure in the expectation the Irish will eventually cave, but there is no sign of it on this side of the water - unless he believes what Arnold wrote...

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Tue Aug 13th, 2019 at 01:13:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Johnson wants power. He's been persuaded that jumping off the cliff is a good way to get it. We'll see how well he holds his nerve.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Aug 13th, 2019 at 01:46:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Press comment suggest there are plans to invoke the Civil Contingencies Act - a terrifyingly comprehensive piece of legislation originally drafted for war time and other emergencies which might require government control of essential services and infrastructure.

It more or less gives the government the right to do whatever the hell it wants, albeit with some limited Parliamentary oversight.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Aug 13th, 2019 at 06:21:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As if that was the plan all along...
We'll be fully back to the 70s then:

God save the Queen
The fascist regime
They made you a moron

by Bernard on Tue Aug 13th, 2019 at 07:10:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
they can try, but I seriously doubt they have the manpower to do anything effectively anymore. Not enough police, the civil service in ruins and even the army is 10s of 1000s short on manpower.

Frankly, all thoughts of an authoritarian coup seem to require a belief in the organisational competence of the Tories and the civil service which has been seriously absent in the last few years. Any party which has used chris Grayling for anything more complicated than as a doorstop is not a threat. They can make the attempt but it's all very wicked witch of the west, the harder they try, the more stupid they look.
Boris Johnston is not Emperor Palpatine and Domnnic Cummings is not Darth Vader, however much they pretend.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Aug 13th, 2019 at 09:19:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
A half arsed coup would be both on-brand and the worst possible case. You'd end up with a failed state and multiple armed factions.

It's going to be fun when the EU has to figure out how to deploy French forces to the Irish border to provide security.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Aug 14th, 2019 at 09:40:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Come now, the how proceeds from UNSC jaw boning and UN Peace Keeper accessorizing, of which French detail.

Or is this protocol in the law of war only for other people's "inter-communal conflict"?


Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Wed Aug 14th, 2019 at 12:12:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
French blue helmets on the border? Better provide for a Dutch contingent too. (William of Orange, anyone?).

Between the Irish, the English, the French, and the Dutch, we'd have the makings of a first-class 17C war.

All provided by Boris "Don't thank me" Johnson.

Things are going to slide, slide in all directions
Won't be nothing
Nothing you can measure anymore
L. Cohen

by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Thu Aug 15th, 2019 at 07:48:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
hmm, yes, well, "template of European history" and all that.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Thu Aug 15th, 2019 at 01:46:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh get serious, England will not be stabilized by importing the blue helmets of the UN or the berets of the French army or even the grey caps of the Germans. It would, obviously, be the Darth Vader helmets of the US Army. We will bring democracy back from America to its original home in England, and you will like it or else.

by asdf on Fri Aug 16th, 2019 at 02:13:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Original home? As the name suggests, the original home of democracy is Greece. Just like tyranny and oligarchy.
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Fri Aug 16th, 2019 at 03:01:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, no, no.  What Commie history book have you been reading?  All good things originate in anglophone countries.
by rifek on Fri Aug 16th, 2019 at 04:26:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Democracy" is our main export.
by rifek on Fri Aug 16th, 2019 at 04:29:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If "democracy" is our mission, why don"t we call our diplomats like Bolton, Pence, Pompeo and newly named Dominic Raab ... ehh "missionaries".

Just like the Jesuits leading the Conquistadors, the Conquest of the New World. Recall Iraq, George Bush, Donald Rumsfeld and the Biblical verses in support of the invasion and occupation.

Global Warming - distance between America and Europe is steadily increasing.

by Oui on Fri Aug 16th, 2019 at 05:38:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Patience.  Once the US becomes a Christian Dominionist state.
by rifek on Sat Aug 17th, 2019 at 11:05:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Brexit enforcer Cummings' farm took €235,000 in EU handouts  - Observer
Boris Johnson's controversial enforcer, Dominic Cummings, an architect of Brexit and a fierce critic of Brussels, is co-owner of a farm that has received €250,000 (£235,000) in EU farming subsidies, the Observer can reveal.

The revelation is a potential embarrassment for the mastermind behind Johnson's push to leave the EU by 31 October. Since being appointed as Johnson's chief adviser, Cummings has presented the battle to leave the EU as one between the people and the politicians. He positions himself as an outsider who wants to demolish elites, end the "absurd subsidies" paid out by the EU and liberate the UK from its arcane rules and regulations.

But his critics say the revelation that Cummings has benefited from the system he intends to smash underscores how many British farmers are reliant on EU money that would evaporate if the UK leaves.

by Bernard on Fri Aug 16th, 2019 at 02:50:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Just like Farage, they consider it their duty to pillage the EU for every cent they can steal. And consider it a job well done

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Aug 19th, 2019 at 08:56:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think Johnson wants his name in the history books, so that thousands of Eton and Oxford students will read about how he took on the evil French and Germans and finally won England's independence.

If his nerve gives out, or he is defeated in a no confidence vote and can't hold his plan together, or is slipped an unwanted Article 50 extension by the EU, his chances of getting into the textbooks is as a footnote to May.

"Oh and there was this other guy who fooled around for a few months, whatever his name was, useless twit."

by asdf on Fri Aug 16th, 2019 at 02:01:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by generic on Fri Aug 16th, 2019 at 12:21:02 PM EST
Well, Johnson just sent a letter to Donald Tusk...

Johnson tries to reopen Brexit talks with backstop plea to EU

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Mon Aug 19th, 2019 at 11:46:18 PM EST
he claims th backstop is anti-democratic. I think he's gonna have to work on that line cos that's even more full of bullshit than his Telegraph columns from Brussels were

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Aug 20th, 2019 at 07:57:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Tusk is unimpressed.

Neither is Angela Merkel.

Merkel: No need to reopen Brexit deal to tackle Irish border - Politico.eu

The EU will consider "practical" solutions for the Irish border after Brexit, but this does not mean re-opening the Withdrawal Agreement, Angela Merkel said Tuesday.

"As soon as we have a practical arrangement where we can abide by the Good Friday Agreement and also define the borders of the [EU's] single market, we won't need the backstop," Merkel said at a press conference during a visit to Iceland.

"That means we will, of course, think about practical solutions, and I always say that if you want to find these solutions, you can do so in a short period of time," she said. "The European Union is ready to do this, but we don't need to open up the Withdrawal Agreement. It's a question of the future relationship."

by Bernard on Tue Aug 20th, 2019 at 06:55:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Those against the backstop and not proposing realistic alternatives in fact support re-establishing a border. Even if they do not admit it."
Finally, a succinct translation of Tory gov NI "unionist" gibberish including but not limited to a NEW! line through the Irish Sea.

BorderIrish definitively segregates UK gov claim to geographic and jurisdictional possession of that colony from all others' claims. Tory gov defense of the '22 border --first international treaty-- is precisely what keeps UK "orderly" withdrawal from TFEU --second international treaty-- hostage.

Since '99 (eurozone est'd) Tories have been quibbling amongst themselves about price of the ransom.

According to pirate guidelines.

archived
US-UK do not do international law. 'k?

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Tue Aug 20th, 2019 at 02:46:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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