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The penny has dropped

by Frank Schnittger Thu Sep 12th, 2019 at 08:48:25 AM EST

Newton Emerson has been the foremost unionist commentator on political affairs in Ireland over the past few years. In common with almost all unionists he couldn't quite understand why Brexit was an existential threat to the Good Friday Agreement, the peace process and any Irish government, no matter how mild mannered or moderate its chief protagonists. Somehow Brexit was going to be a fact of life and we were all going to have to "just get on with it".

To be clear, Newton, like the 56% in N. Ireland who voted Remain (including 40% of protestants), was against Brexit, and decried what he called the DUP's "recreational anti-nationalism" which saw Brexit as an opportunity to really antagonise nationalists without serious consequences.

In common with most of the British establishment, the DUP never thought the referendum would pass. They thought they could have their cake and eat it: really annoy the nationalists, and then just whistle in the air and carry on as if nothing had happened, all the while grinning at how they had outsmarted their sworn enemies.


But when the UK electorate called their bluff and actually voted for Brexit, they were in a bind: They could have declared that as the vast majority in N. Ireland has voted to Remain, they would respect that position and, for the first time in their history, take up a leadership position representing all communities in Northern Ireland. It would have done so much to reduce cross-community tensions, consolidate the peace process, normalise N. Ireland politics, and gain the grudging respect of even hard line nationalists.

Instead they chose to retreat into their sectarian ghettoes and double down on their mistake. They adopted a hard line pro-Brexit position, found allies in the hard-right European Research Group (ERG) of Tory Europhobes, and generally became more Farage like than Farage himself.

Again, none of this would have mattered much had Theresa May not made her ill-fated decision to go for an even greater majority in the 2017 general election which ended up handing the DUP the balance of power. Now they were going to have to put their money where there mouths were, and actually deliver on their promises.

To be fair, many DUP members and elected representatives are convinced Brexiteers. They believe that the UK is being held back by meddling Brussels bureaucrats, and that freed from the constraints of a sclerotic European economy, they can go out and conquer the world, like the British empire once did. Indeed they owe their very existence in Ireland to that empire successfully colonising Ireland.

It is difficult for many in Europe to grasp the mentality behind all of this. The closest analogue I can think of are the former Rhodesian and South African whites who believed that God had given them stewardship over their African lands and peoples and it was their job to civilise the natives, teach them the bible, put some manners on them, and generally rule the roost. The sense of entitlement is intense: they are God's elect and the moral superiors of all others.

But Newton doesn't belong to that sectarian tribe. He is part of the "sensible" middle ground of unionist opinion more concerned with making an honest buck and making a success of the N. Ireland economy. It has gradually dawned on him and them that Brexit, and particularly a no deal Brexit, represents an existential threat to their community and way of life as well.  Not only could it re-ignite the Troubles, but it could wipe out much of the N. Ireland economy and put its existence as a separate state-let at risk.

Once it became clear that Sinn Fein wouldn't re-start the N. Ireland Assembly and Executive - dependent on at least minimal cross-community tolerance and support - and the Irish government wouldn't bend on its insistence on the backstop, the writing was on the wall. Although he is re-writing his own history to some extent, Newton makes clear, in this morning's Irish Times column, that reality is about to hit, and hit hard...

Two U-turns will leave DUP in a spin

The Democratic Unionist Party has five weeks to perform arguably the biggest U-turn in Northern Ireland's history, and certainly the fastest.

It is hard to see how it will not be overwhelmed by the task.

Unique arrangements for Northern Ireland have always been the only plausible outcome of Brexit, yet the DUP has portrayed this to its voters as a calamity only it could prevent.

Those arrangements will be now be agreed over its head; and it has no choice but to sell them as a success.

The party has not lost all influence at Westminster. Its 10 MPs still matter to a beleaguered minority government and British prime minister Boris Johnson still sees value in unionist endorsement for whatever deal he can cobble together.

But the DUP has lost the balance of power, after very obviously squandering it.

Perversely, a party with no MPs is the British government's main concern.

The Brexit Party, Nigel Farage's latest vehicle, must be satisfied - or more accurately, neutralised - for the Conservatives to be confident of winning the next election.

No deal would have accomplished that, but the Commons has ruled it out. So a deal must be sincerely attempted at the European Council meeting in five weeks' time if the United Kingdom is to leave the European Union at the end of October - the test Johnson has set for himself and to which the Brexit Party will hold him.

----

The Brexit Party does not care if the price of Brexit is a border down the Irish Sea. Its English nationalism increasingly looks like the opposite of unionism. The DUP has long been aware, in prescient detail, of the danger this poses. Immediately after the 2017 general election, when the DUP was negotiating its confidence-and-supply agreement with Johnson's predecessor Theresa May, it proposed she appoint Farage to the House of Lords or give him a role on her Brexit negotiating team so he would not rebuild his Ukip brand and drag the government towards no deal.

People often look at the mess the DUP has made of Brexit and ask why the party did not see it coming, but it is much worse than that: the DUP saw it all coming and made a mess of it anyway. This is an ominous portent for its ability to turn everything around by next month.

It could all have been so different. The DUP exercised its veto on Theresa May's original deal and forced her to change the backstop from the EU's original proposal of a N. Ireland backstop to an all UK backstop. This alarmed the sleeping giant of English nationalism that the UK could be trapped within the Customs Union and Single Market (CUSM) indefinitely, unable to control EU immigration or negotiate its own trade deals.

It is not clear whether Theresa May's original deal (with the N.I. only backstop) which was never put to the House of Commons would have passed at that time had the DUP not raised the alarm. Expectations in the UK as to what could be achieved from a Brexit deal were still very unrealistic at the time. Theresa May was rapidly loosing the faith and confidence of her hard line supporters in any case.

But in absolutely characteristic fashion the DUP overplayed its hand. It wanted to have its cake and eat it: full access to the CUSM, no barriers to trade with the UK, and all the alleged freedoms of leaving the EU at the same time. It was "NO SURRENDER" in a different form. It was to be all or nothing, and having previously become accustomed to having it all, the DUP are going to find it impossible to accept coming away with nothing.

It's not all over bar the shouting of course. Newton seems confident that Boris will make the N. Ireland only backstop deal with the EU and get it passed by the House of Commons, rebrand it as an enormous victory and win the subsequent general election, but I am not so sure.

Firstly, no one in the House of Commons will be fooled into thinking that this is anything other than a reheated version of Theresa May's original deal. The DUP will find it very difficult to vote for that, as will quite a few hard-line ERG "ultras" who would much prefer a no deal Brexit in any case.

Secondly, Boris has made enemies of the 20 MPs he has expelled who will be loath to hand him a victory, especially as it will be little changed from what Boris helped sabotage under Theresa May.

Thirdly, the Lib Dems, SNP, Plaid Cymru, Greens as ChangeUK are now all avowedly, unapologetically, and uncompromisingly supporters of Remain, with or without a second referendum.

And Finally Labour has now committed to putting any credible deal to a second referendum, and won't simply give Boris Johnson's deal a pass in the House of Commons. Even Labour Brexiteers will find it difficult to hand Boris a victory which he can then exploit at the polls.

About the only thing the House of Commons can agree on, after the prorogation scandal and threats not to obey the law, is that Boris Johnson is not the leader to carry this process forward.

So an A.50 extension it will be, with or without Boris Johnson at the helm. If he has even a semblance of dignity and honour he would, of course resign at that point. We shall see. With the EU having made clear no further negotiations are possible on the Withdrawal Agreement, the only possible rationale for the extension is to organise a second referendum. That will take time, and elections are not traditionally held mid winter in the UK.

So prepare for a Spring referendum and general election with caretaker PM Corbyn at the helm, negotiating better deals for both Leave (via the Political Declaration) and Remain (a deal with the Commission on state Aid, nationalisation of key infrastructure, workers rights, consumer protection, climate change etc.) and promising to abide by the outcome.

As I said in my comment at the bottom of Newton's article:

At last the penny has dropped! For three years Newton has been in denial along with most of the unionist community in believing that Brexit was a fait accompli and it would be the nationalists who would have to come to terms with it in some shape or form. In common with most unionists and all Brexiteers, he couldn't imagine an EU that would stand united, resolute, and in total solidarity with one of its smaller members. Somehow the EU was going to have to bend to the will of the DUP, as Theresa May had done.


But the EU and the Irish government have been clear: There will be no deal without a backstop, and it is up to the UK to decide whether this is on an all UK basis, or on an all Ireland basis, and that decision has now been made. Boris Johnson will dress it up as some sort of "practical arrangements" to overcome the impracticalities of placing customs infrastructure on hundreds of roads across the 500km border, but the effect will be the same.

Welcome to the real world.

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One of the intriguing aspects of the Boris and Leo Summit is that there have been no leaks as to what actually transpired at the meeting. If Leo has a fault (besides his neo-liberal economic policies) it is a tendency to talk too much: to muse out loud about things when it would be better to work on them in private; to commentate on events rather than shape them. Staying schtum is a long standing Irish tradition when dealing with difficult political situations: "Whatever you say, say nothin'.

So having been quite forthright in his opening remarks of welcome at the Press conference, it is difficult to imagine Leo being any less blunt in private. And yet he and Boris have said nothing about what was discussed. There was no press conference afterwards.

Arlene Foster has declared herself encouraged after the summit and her meeting with Boris afterwards in which she claimed Boris ruled out agreeing to a N. Ireland only backstop. However his focus on "practicalities" and her repeated pleas for "a sensible compromise" has indicated some back tracking on the backstop is in the air.

It will take some weeks for the outlines of their proposals to become clear - Boris will want to keep his powder dry until the run-up to the October EU Council summit and the famous last minute, all night, negotiations he claims the EU always engages in, but we can expect a word salad of "Maximum Facilitation", "devolved accountability", and "cross-community consent" which will ensure that the N. Ireland Executive, if it is ever re-constituted, will have some role in overseeing arrangements.

The issue is that it will require cross-community support to change the status quo, not just maintain it. Thus unless both communities - in practice the DUP and Sinn Fein - agree to some divergence from CUSM rules, which will require border infra-structure to police, it will not happen. And of course Sinn Fein will never agree to that. No one will grant the DUP a veto on continued N.I./IE "regulatory alignment".

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Sep 12th, 2019 at 09:52:48 AM EST
Lord Ashcroft poll finds slim majority for Irish re-unification in N. Ireland:

Narrow lead for Irish re-unification
In my poll, 45% said they would vote to stay in the UK, and 46% said they would choose to leave and join the Republic of Ireland - a lead of 51% to 49% for unification when we exclude don't knows and those who say they would not vote. This is in fact a statistical tie and well within the margin of error. Such a result might also reflect the uncertainty and anxiety surrounding Brexit, the Irish border and its potential effect on life in the province, which could recede when the outcome is settled. Be that as it may, the result underlines what could be at stake in the quest for a workable Brexit solution on the island of Ireland.

People divided predictably enough by tradition, though one in twenty self-declared unionists said they would opt for unification and a further 6% said they didn't know how they would vote. Women (13%) were much more likely than men (3%) to say they were not sure what they would do. The over-65 age group was the only one with a clear majority for staying in the union (55% to 34%); 45-64s divided evenly, and a majority of those aged up to 44 said they would vote for unification.

While only 8% of unionists said they thought such a "border poll" should take place within the next decade, one in three of them thought it was likely to happen within this timescale - as did nine in ten nationalists.

A similar Lord Ashcroft poll found a narrow majority for Scottish independence last month.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Sep 12th, 2019 at 02:48:03 PM EST
In the same poll, and presented with only two options, what kind of Brexit would you prefer if Brexit has to happen?


Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Sep 12th, 2019 at 02:53:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Sep 12th, 2019 at 02:56:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This poll is significant because it shows quite a large swing to Irish re-unification/remaining in the EU compared to most other polls in the past. This may reflect current anxiety over Brexit, or a more lasting swing, or both.

However it is important to note it represents sentiment towards an abstract concept of a "united Ireland". No one has spelled out in detail what this would look like, or how the transition would be managed. Any such change would require a referendum both in N.I. and I.E. and we don't do abstract generalised referenda. The precise nature of the financial settlement, governance structures, and civil rights would have to spelled out - right down to the flags, emblems and anthems to be used. Nobody wants another Brexit style referendum where nobody knows what they are voting for - or against.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Sep 12th, 2019 at 03:05:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
an abstract concept of a "united Ireland"

It also represents sentiment towards an abstract concept of the United Kingdom. Do these unionists hope to stay part of a revived UK that has a strong international presence, that has taken back control of its affairs, that deals one-on-one with the US and Russia and China and EU? Or do they hope to stay part of a reduced Little England, isolated from the EU, powerless against the great powers, economically blighted, and full of violent internal group-on-group retribution?

by asdf on Thu Sep 12th, 2019 at 03:32:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Precisely, and one of my long held theories has been that a United Ireland, when it comes about, will have been caused as much by a divergence between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, as by a convergence between North and South. In particular, what happens to the €10 Billion p.a. UK Exchequer subsidy to the North, roughly equivalent to the UK's net contribution to the EU?

If, as I expect, the UK economy implodes after a no-deal Brexit, and in particular UK government revenues crater, will the value for money the GB receives from its "investment" in N. Ireland not be re-examined? My fear has always been that England (and it is England that calls the financial shots) will rather hastily dump N. Ireland on the Republic, and expect us to pick up the tab, both financially and in terms of the social unrest almost certain to ensue.

Irish re-unification is a process which needs to proceed slowly, carefully, and with due regard for the civil rights and social identities of all the communities in Ireland, north and south. There have to be tangible benefits, in terms of economic development, and people have to be given time to come to terms with the changes that will inevitably be required.

National building is no longer a case of one army beating another, or one ethnic group lording it over the other, but old habits and attitudes die hard. Scottish independence could help or hinder the process, but ultimately people will have to make it work, or all communities will be net losers. Sadly the DUP have demonstrated exactly zero expertise in helping their supporters prepare for changes they know to be coming, and leadership more generally within both communities is at a low ebb.

German re-unification has also proved to be problematic, even after a generation and without the ethnic and historical divisions of the north. We do not want neo-fascist groups raising their ugly heads despoiling the political landscape of Ireland North or south. This is going to be a long, slow, and painful process, and the Brexit debacle has shown us many of the ways not to go.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Sep 12th, 2019 at 04:21:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think anyone in Tory Westminster cares what the Unionists want.

They're not interested in what British voters want, so why should they bother their wise patrician heads with distracting footnotes like The Irish Question?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Sep 12th, 2019 at 06:52:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In the short term some are worried about getting a deal through, and the DUP votes may still have a bearing on that. In the longer term they may also worry about their €10 Billion p.a. subvention to the N. Ireland economy, especial if UK economy and tax revenues crater. Some, believe it or not, still have an emotional attachment to the idea of the UK, although few will have actually spent much time in N.I.  

But the hard reality is that the vast majority only think of N.I. when it causes them problems, as during the Troubles, or doing the backstop negotiations now. Polls of Tory Party members have shown they care about Brexit much more than about the Union, or even the future of the Conservative Party, and the only thing they care about more than Brexit is the prospect of Corbyn coming to power. Go figure...

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Sep 12th, 2019 at 07:18:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Something I find interesting is that I have to go into Ashcroft's tables to find out how many were neither unionist nor nationalist (178 out of 1542, or slightly above 10%), and there is no breakdown of their opinions. It can't be for statistical reasons, as the age group 18-25 has a smaller sample and their opinions are presented (they like Remain, unification and Corbyn).

I guess the Neithers are simply politically invisible. I wonder how they vote and if they do vote. Maybe some pollster could ask them.

by fjallstrom on Fri Sep 13th, 2019 at 11:41:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There is a tendency for pollsters and pundits to see N.I. politics simply through a Nationalist/Unionist prism. In reality there is a huge variation in views in both these camps and many are reluctant to identify with either. The Alliance, Green, Women's coalition and various left wing groups tend not to frame their politics in this way, and collectively gain c. 10-20% of the vote and there are many people disaffected from politics altogether who don't bother to vote because they feel in a minority and have little chance of having their views reflected in Parliament or the Assembly.

Naomi Long (Alliance) got a record 18.5% of the vote in the last European election because she was seen as actually having a chance to win a seat. Even then, turnout was only 45% and turnout in assembly elections is often 55-65% despite the fact that politics in NI is so fanatical, bitter, polarised and intense - or perhaps partly because of it.

It is of course hard to predict who would become politically active/engaged/energised if NI politics were to be framed in other ways - e.g. traditional right left - or if the status quo became a United Ireland rather than UK. But past violence and current passions make many people reluctant to engage at all.

Allied to that the really big decisions - Brexit, composition of UK government - are often outside the control of N. I in any case, so people are left to argue about flags and emblems...

I think the Ashcroft poll could represent something of a sea change if confirmed by other polls, but I am reluctant to read too much into it - it is one poll, conducted in a particular context, and not a real vote effecting the constitutional future of N.I.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Sep 13th, 2019 at 12:07:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There's absolutely no in-depth coverage of NI in the British media.

Stories are always Sinn Fein vs DUP, and that's all we ever get.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Sep 13th, 2019 at 03:06:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
tbh there's not a lot of in-depth reporting anywhere in the media. They're really all about pitting extremes against each other for colour and ratings. nuance doesn't sell.

You see it in coverage of islam. they never get on a representative of the reasonable majority, they'll always find some hotheaded loudmouth who'll start an in-studio argument, which producers think is golden. All heat and smoke, but no light.

It's why the media got the 2017 election hopelessly wrong, cos they simply told each other that Corbyn was a no-hoper and missed the nuance that people wanted a different economic approach that iss fairer. And judging by what I'm seeing now, the next election is gonna surprise them as well

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Sep 13th, 2019 at 06:42:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's a novel turn of phrase.

As a matter of Vienna convention on the law of treaties, IE-UK CTA, UK statutes--the GFA alias Belfast Agreement as affirmed by the Northern Ireland (St Andrews Agreement) Act 2006 --and UK common law this statement is incorrect.

No deal would have accomplished that, but the Commons has ruled it out.

UK not ratifying the WA accomplishes delay of UK separation from the TEU. Until UK Commons MPs exhaust extension applications to the "period under Article 50(3)TEU," granted by the EU Council, UK is subject to TEU rights and obligations codified as EURLEX.
It is not clear whether Theresa May's original deal (with the N.I. only backstop) which was never put to the House of Commons would have passed at that time had the DUP not raised the alarm.

There is and has been only one legal instrument titled Agreement on the withdrawal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland from the European Union and the European Atomic Energy Community, commonly known as the "Withdrawal Agreement" or "May's deal", agreed by T.May and the EU Council and presented to parliament for consideration since 17 Nov 2018.

The WA incorporates relevant EURLEX by citation.

In the UK the European (Withdrawal) Act of 2018 was passed by parliament and granted assent by HRM LOL 26.6.2018 before the negotiated WA was finalized for ratification by UK parliament. My knowledge and belief is, section 10-12 have not since been modified or repealed by UK parliament.

Continuation of North-South co-operation and the prevention of new border arrangements

(1)In exercising any of the powers under this Act, a Minister of the Crown or devolved authority must--

(a)act in a way that is compatible with the terms of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, and

(b)have due regard to the joint report from the negotiators of the EU and the United Kingdom Government on progress during phase 1 of negotiations under Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union.

(2)Nothing in section 8, 9 or 23(1) or (6) of this Act authorises regulations which--

(a)diminish any form of North-South cooperation provided for by the Belfast Agreement (as defined by section 98 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998), or

(b)create or facilitate border arrangements between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland after exit day which feature physical infrastructure, including border posts, or checks and controls, that did not exist before exit day and are not in accordance with an agreement between the United Kingdom and the EU.

Journalists' reporting and columnists' fables have no legal force. Get over it. Identify the elected representatives who do.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Thu Sep 12th, 2019 at 06:35:58 PM EST
I don't get your point.

  1. Newton was referring to a no deal Brexit neutralising the political threat of the Brexit party to the prospects for the Conservatives winning the next general election. Noting else.

  2. I make no mention of the European (Withdrawal) Act of 2018


Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Sep 12th, 2019 at 07:29:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My point is that familiarizing oneself with points of current law is a good idea, if one intends to comment intelligently about political strategies of MPs in the UK parliament who may or may not be willing and able to modify current law or introduce legislation.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Thu Sep 12th, 2019 at 07:39:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Really? And what precise points of law did I miss which prevented me from commenting intelligently about MP's political strategies?

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Sep 12th, 2019 at 07:57:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
U-turns will leave DUP in a spin
Sir, - At last the penny has dropped! For three years Newton Emerson has been in denial along with most of the unionist community in believing that Brexit was a fait accompli and it would be the nationalists who would have to come to terms with it in some shape or form ("Two U-turns will leave DUP in a spin", Opinion & Analysis, September 12th).

In common with most unionists and all Brexiteers, he couldn't imagine an EU that would stand united, resolute, and in total solidarity with one of its smaller members. Somehow the EU was going to have to bend to the will of the DUP, as Theresa May had done.

But the EU and the Irish Government have been clear: there will be no deal without a backstop, and it is up to the UK to decide whether this is on an all-UK basis, or on an all-Ireland basis, and that decision has now been made.

Boris Johnson will dress it up as some sort of "practical arrangements" to overcome the impracticalities of placing customs infrastructure on hundreds of roads across the 500km border, but the effect will be the same.

Welcome to the real world. - Yours, etc,

FRANK SCHNITTGER



Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Sep 12th, 2019 at 11:32:47 PM EST
or "the smart money"...
... the DUP are starting to get real? You reckon?

Sterling has rallied to its highest levels against the euro and dollar since late-July this morning, having gained more than 1% in reaction to the news that the DUP may be softening their stance on the Irish backstop.
However, the pound remains vulnerable, with politics set to continue dominating and the Brexit landscape shifting as quickly as ever.

But I'd check the odds at Paddy Power for a more reliable indication.


It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

by eurogreen on Fri Sep 13th, 2019 at 10:14:49 AM EST
Not so sure about the DUP, but my saying "the Penny has Dropped" is more a reference to Newton Emerson as a mainstream unionist commentator. The DUP still have to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into the 21st. century and their will be much "wailing and gnashing of teeth" before that happens...

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Sep 13th, 2019 at 10:43:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
tbh if the DUP made it to the 19th century I'd be amazed

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Fri Sep 13th, 2019 at 06:44:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]


Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Fri Sep 13th, 2019 at 07:10:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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